Let’s look at the Martin/Zimmerman timeline.
First we have to audio clip that Mata provided for us.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9A-gp8mrdw[/youtube]
And the transcript is here
The official audio can be downloaded here.
To begin with, Zimmerman is in his vehicle (1) as he speaks with the dispatcher. At 0:56 of the clip
“That’s the clubhouse, do you know what the- he’s near the clubhouse right now?”
“Yeah, now he’s coming towards me.”
It does sound as though Martin (2) is walking in a direction away from the clubhouse, toward Zimmerman. Zimmerman says Martin is near the clubhouse, but Zimmerman does not say that he is near the clubhouse. The clubhouse is near the main entrance on Oregon St.
Zimmerman expressed concern that Martin might be carrying something as he approaches:
“He has his hands in his waistband. He is a black male. Something’s wrong with him. Yep. He’s coming to check me out. He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. Send officers over here.”
Zimmerman begins to give instructions as to his location when Martin begins to run and Zimmerman exclaims
“Shit, he’s running.”
At 2:10 of the audio recording, the vehicle door can be heard to open and at 2:14 it closes. By this time Martin has passed from near the clubhouse toward the area between the 13 and 28 buildings. Zimmerman begins to chase and you can hear the rustle of his clothing and his breathing at 2:19. The dispatcher ask if he is chasing Martin and Zimmerman acknowledges that he is. At 2:26 the dispatcher says:
“OK, we don’t need you to do that.”
Zimmerman says “OK” and the rustling ends at 2:42.
At 2:38 Zimmerman says “He ran” and apparently lost sight of Martin. Martin apparently escaped.
Zimmerman remains on the phone with the dispatcher until at least 4:12. During that time he describes his location and directs the dispatcher to the location of his parked car.
Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that’s my truck…[unintelligible]
Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?
Zimmerman: I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address.
That puts Zimmerman’s vehicle on Twin Trees Lane. According to one report, near the bend. Martin apparently fled in between the 28 and 12 buildings toward his father’s girlfriend’s place, located near the back entrance of Twin Lakes. It is the direction Zimmerman described.
Dispatcher: “He’s running? Which way is he running?”
Zimmerman: “Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.”
Zimmerman’s phone call was received at 7:11:12. At 2:42 on the audio, Zimmerman stopped running and lost sight of Martin. That puts it at 7:13:54 or so. Zimmerman continues to speak to the dispatcher until at least 4:12 of the audio, or 7:15:24. It’s reported that the phone call to Brandy Green ended at 7:16. The fight and shooting took place between then and when the police arrived at 7:17.
This is the point the gaps exist.
Zimmerman is reportedly parked on Twin Trees Lane. He says Martin is coming toward him, and then he says Martin runs. Zimmerman says that Martin runs “towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.”(3) That is SE of Zimmerman’s position and it is in the direction of the home of Martin’s girlfriend. (4) Zimmerman begins chase, but then stands down when it was requested he do so and he apparently loses sight of Martin. The question is, which way did Martin run? If he ran down Twin Trees avoiding Zimmerman (5), Zimmerman could keep him in sight for some time. That would put Martin some distance from where the altercation occurred- in between 1321 and 2821, as described in the police report. (6) Martin was initially placed near the clubhouse. If he reversed course, say to head up to Retreat Circle (7), then Zimmerman would not have described him running toward the back entrance on South Oregon. If Martin ran toward the area in between buildings 28 and 12 passing near Zimmerman’s car and then turning the corner, Zimmerman would lose sight of him quickly.
This is all of significance because there was less than a minute in between the time Zimmerman ended the call to the police and the beginning of the altercation as the phone call from Martin to Green is said to have ended at 7:16 and Zimmerman was speaking to the dispatcher until 7:15:24. That’s about 30 seconds for Martin and Zimmerman to come together.
Zimmerman had no idea to where Martin was headed. Zimmerman did not catch Martin while Zimmerman was on the phone and Martin had a head start even if he only “walked fast” he still could outpace Zimmerman. Yet somehow they could not have been farther apart than about 30 seconds closure.
Then we come to some other questions. If Zimmerman was “hunting down” Martin as some have opined, why did he not simply shoot Martin upon encountering him? Why would Zimmerman get so close to Martin that Martin could punch Zimmerman in the face and knock him down if his intention was to kill Martin? (BTW, ABC News has had an epiphany. It has decided that George Zimmerman had injuries after all) Would a person bent on murder allow himself to be assaulted and still expect that he could reach and fire his gun? If Zimmerman was brandishing a gun what could possess Martin to attack him? No reasonable person is going to charge someone aiming a gun at one. Zimmerman agreed to meet with the police as they arrived. Why would he agree to meet them and then chase after Martin to kill him? Why would someone bent on murder hold Martin at gunpoint while he screamed for 40 seconds? Because he wanted witnesses to the murder? Why didn’t Zimmerman run if murder was the goal?
None of this makes any sense.
Now let’s consider what probably happened. Back to the NY Times
Soon, callers to 911 were describing the presence of police officers, and the beams of flashlights gliding over a section of grass a few dozen yards from Trayvon’s destination, where a boy inside was waiting for Skittles.
A few dozen yards. A few is about 3. Three dozen yards. 36-40 yards. 120 feet. George Zimmerman loses sight of Trayvon Martin at 2:38 of the call, or about 7:13:50. Martin has until 7:16 to cover the “few dozen yards” to make it to the safety of Brandy Green’s residence. Zimmerman remains on the phone until 7:15:24. Martin’s girlfriend said the phone call went “dead” at 7:16, but Martin and Zimmerman were already exchanging words. According to Martin’s girlfriend, the conversation was initiated by Martin. The window between the end of Zimmerman’s call to the SPD and the meeting is brief. Really brief.
Martin had over two minutes to reach Green residence. Why didn’t he go there? This suggests strongly that Martin did not go to the Green residence, but instead hid somewhere, waiting for Zimmerman, and then confronted Zimmerman. Martin spoke first to Zimmerman, not the other way around. I think Martin approached Zimmerman’s car from the direction of the clubhouse, passed the car and then bolted. Martin then rounded the corner and hid. Zimmerman pursued until being asked to stop but lost Martin. As Zimmerman turned to head back to his car, Martin came out of hiding and confronted Zimmerman. The rest is history.
DrJohn has been a health care professional for more than 30 years. In addition to clinical practice he has done extensive research and has published widely with over 70 original articles and abstracts in the peer-reviewed literature. DrJohn is well known in his field and has lectured on every continent except for Antarctica. He has been married to the same wonderful lady for over 30 years and has three kids- two sons, both of whom are attorneys and one daughter on her way into the field of education.
DrJohn was brought up with the concept that one can do well if one is prepared to work hard but nothing in life is guaranteed.
Except for liberals being foolish.
@c. lindy:
Maybe no Final Judgment of Injunction for Protection Against Domestic Violence was ever filed due to this:
“His ex-fiancee, Veronica Zuazo, alleged domestic violence and filed a motion for a restraining order in 2005. Zimmerman then filed for a restraining order against Zuazo and both later dropped their motions.”
Pretty certain that U.S.C. Section 922(g)(8) pertains only to active orders or convictions. No final judgement, no loss of weapons privileges.
I got to tell what I just views and heard, it’s not about this POST, not at all
but very important for everyone to know ,
a microwave still carry 2000 watts in the unit UNPLUG ,
THIS GUY WAS MAKING POPCORN AND THE MICRO WAVE STOP WORKING, AND
HE UNPLUG, TAKE OF THE BACK COVER HE HAS A SCREW DRIVER AND START TO CHECK THE WIRE
AND WHEN HE TOUCH THE BLACK LITTLE BOX HE GET ALL THE RESERVE 2000 ELECTRIC SHOCK
AND THEN FALL DEAD ON THE FLOOR, IT WAS A SMALL MICRO WAVE,
CAN YOU BELIEVE I DID IT ONCE, BUT STOP BEFORE TOUCHING THE WIRES, WITH MY SCREW DRIVER
AND i KNOW ANYBODY CAN DO IT TO CHECK THE WIRES, BECAUSE IT HAPPEN THAT YOUR microwave WILL STOP SUDDENLY WHILE WORKING,
I just learned that I almost dye and never knew about it,
so you better not open any microwave. ever
sorry drjohn woops I corrected and change the word computer for microwave
@MataHarley:
I don’t think that it ended at 19:13:41. I think that was the point at which the dispatcher changed the location of the meeting with the LEO’s when Zimmerman directed the police to his position. That’s what was happening at about two minutes after the call began. I bet COMPL is complainant, not complete. It appears first at 19:13:12.
@ilovebeeswarzone: Please be careful, Bees.
ah yes… the attempt to hold the law, the gun manufacturer, or anything but the person with the weapon, responsible for any events that arise. sigh…
c.lindy, the SYG law has only been invoked 140 times since it’s enactment. So even were what you say true… and it isn’t…. it can hardly be hardly responsible for the tripled crime rate.
But, in fact, the Florida crime rate had dropped to it’s lowest in four decades by 2010, five years after the SYG enactment.
BS like this is why I support an oversight investigation as to whether SYG was incorrectly applied in this case. To stop crap like this.
As a matter of fact, let’s put the kabosh on the “deaths tripled” bit both with the graph on trends for violent crime in Florida, as well as specific data from Florida’s Dept of Law Enforcement.
@MataHarley:
Flies. Ointments.
Some assembly required.
@Pbunt
My point about the witness was not to place blame. Action in stead of inaction would have shaped everything that followed. i acknowledged that no external compunction existed. If that witness had run towards the fight instead of away from it the result would probably saved a young man from a terminal mistake. No I wasn’t there and if you were please fill us all in what really happened. Florida law prohibits release of autopsy results until ALL agencies investigations are completed or inactive. Until the physical evidence it contains is released we are left with call logs, time and distance study and GZ’s physical condition and his and witness statements of various probity. We can establish proximity and time that would have given both men room to have never come into close quarters and the mistakes both of them made. TM had time leave the area as did GZ.
He chose otherwise. GZ failed because he gave up every bit of leverage he had to deescalate the run in. Having a CHL did not give him a blank check to use it. He failed because he did not exercise his options to prevent the kinetics from ever beginning. The object of concealed carry is never to put yourself into a situation where lethal force can’t be avoided. SYG or not. As malize has stated several times GZ let TM close on him and take control of a fight that as a an adult and CHL holder GZ should have been able to defuse. Once TM’s fist flew NOTHING save outside intervention could prevented what came next. The first casualty was a young man’s life and right on the heels of that another man’s life that will be a living hell of criminal investigations of varying impartiality and inevitable wrongful death suit. The obscenity of this case is the actions by Parks&;Crump to try GZ in front of the American people while throwing out falsehood after falsehood to paint GZ, SPD, Chief Lee and SA Wolfinger as bigots, racists and conspirators. Crump cashed on the Martin Lee Anderson case,8 million dollar award,and have no problem telling the Miami Herald what they did and why.
Crump knows the forensics in the autopsy and toxicology results will go to support GZ’s statement and SFD’s original findings. Everything he and race baiters a rent-a-mob have done is to inoculate the public from the conclusions to be drawn when all is revealed.
All of the physical evidence that is needed to resolve this would already gone to a grand jury that ASA Kelly Hines had scheduled if Gov.Scott had not placed ASA Corey in charged. That original grand jury would have been done and over if the state had not been forced to remove any possible trace of misconduct and impartiality. The professional standing of SPD and Seminole Co. SA’s office have been slandered and that slander will probably never be addressed. I would hope that GZ sr. and other parties involved have counsel and are planning suits.
@Brian:
You mean besides the fact that Martin was killed? Or the obscenity that is people such as Dr John performing character assassination upon Martin, someone who is almost certainly dead because he walked down a street and in someone else’s eyes looked wrong, not to mention the character assassination of his grieving parents?
Since he’s renowned for being so consistent in his principles, I can’t wait for Dr John’s future posts attempting to prove how every victim of a shooting is possibly, probably actually, the architect of his own demise. Dr John brings up a good point: we as a society should assume all unarmed shooting victims, killed for seemingly no logical reason, are actually responsible for their own deaths. It’s called Dr John’s (patented) BizzarOccam’s razor ™: let’s select among competing hypotheses the one which makes the most assumptions and thereby offers the most complicated explanation.
@MataHarley:
When on the recording is Zimmerman instructed to “stand down”? When on the recording is Zimmerman instructed to return to his truck?
The dispatcher at 0:56 asks if Martin is near the clubhouse. Not at the clubhouse. I listened to the version at the City of Sanford web site. Let me know if the version you are using say at.
What I meant that the only tangible address that the dispatcher knew was “1111 Retreat View Circle”. Zimmerman did say “one-eleven”. Since that didn’t show up in the dispatcher’s look-up, he asked if it was “one-one-one-one” or “one-eleven”. Zimmerman responded “that’s the clubhouse”. Zimmerman probably didn’t catch that he had given the wrong address. I’d probably say “eleven-eleven”.
But remember that Zimmerman had originally said “the best I can give you is”. This implies that it is not an accurate location, but the only one he knew.
The not-omniscient dispatcher, after being told that the address if that of the clubhouse, then asks if Martin is near the clubhouse. This is a leading question. How close is “near”? Maybe Zimmerman after explaining that the address he gave was for the clubhouse, didn’t catch precisely exactly what the dispatcher was asking. The dispatcher may be thinking his question was “Where is the subject?” and Zimmerman may have thought that the dispatcher was confirming that he was asking whether “the subject was somewhere around the clubhouse”. Later (1:52) when Zimmerman is explaining to go past the clubhouse and turn left, the dispatcher asks “That’s on the left hand side from the clubhhouse?” The dispatcher was not understanding what Zimmerman was saying. He might not have had a map to look at. It is not easy to describe. While Twin Trees goes completely through the subdivision (there is a street sign at the the north intersection with Oregon), resident’s visualization of their neighborhood may be of two little stubs leading from Oregon to the gates, and a loop around the subdivision.
Maybe the dispatcher should be trained to ask “where is the subject?” or “how far is the subject from the clubhouse and which direction.”
I think it is more likely that Martin was maybe 200 feet east of the clubhouse, and in front of Zimmerman who was parked. Zimmerman said he was looking around at houses. If he is very close to the clubhouse, he could only really be looking at the end of the one unit. Further east and he might seem to looking at the backs of the houses to the north of Twin Trees. It makes a lot more sense that he had come back towards Zimmerman – based on the observations Zimmerman was making, rather than trying to look at someone over your left shoulder while in a truck, or watching in a mirror.
We don’t know that Martin expeditiously went to 7/11 and returned home. In the very first local report (2/27) his dad’s girl friend said he was “bored”. He talked to his girlfriend for 6 hours that day. He might have wanted to get away from the 13-YO to talk to his girlfriend. That he was walking aimlessly while talking on the phone is quite possible.
I didn’t say that Zimmerman had followed him in his truck. Though it is possible, if Zimmerman had seen him along Retreat View Circle and then seen Martin turn south on Twin Trees, and then called the police. But that is speculation. It could lead Martin to believe he was being trailed. And nothing in my timeline depends on this step. I agree Zimmerman was parked.
But if Zimmerman is parked on Twin Trees and Martins runs south on the the street it makes more sense to follow in the truck. And it wouldn’t explain how either Martin or Zimmerman ended up where they did. Martin wouldn’t tell his girlfriend that he wouldn’t run but “walk fast” if he had switched directions and was heading away from where he was staying.
It makes more sense for Zimmerman to get out of his truck, if Martin had run east where his truck could not go.
The dispatcher would want to have an address to type in. I’d guess the police car has a map display that directs him to an address. “1111 Retreat View Circle” works better than “when you come in the entrance don’t take a left, but go straight past the clubhouse and turn left and you’ll see my truck …”
Zimmerman appears to say something while the dispatcher is asking for the address of the truck. I don’t know whether it could be recovered or not. I think he was using the truck as a way-point and not the final destination.
The dispatcher is trying to get a location for the police officer. Zimmerman mentions his truck, and the dispatcher asks for the address. The dispatcher then tries to get the address of his house. Finally, it is the dispatcher who suggests the mailboxes.
This is the only REM in the log that shows up prior to the time from the recording. The dispatcher may have keyed in “1111 Retreat View Circle” because he had an officer on the way, and then asks Zimmerman.
Zimmerman then realizes that this is really dumb because it is not only close to where he is at, it is not where his truck is. Zimmerman then asks whether it would be OK for the police officer to call him, and Zimmerman would tell the police officer “where I’m at“.
Zimmerman did remain where he was at, perhaps going around to the front of a building to get an address.
????
I suppose you think there is some relevance in this obscure point, but I’ll be darned if I see it. Let me remind you of my post comments… verbatim
Let me repeat.. YOU said that “Zimmerman never said that Martin was near the clubhouse.” Is that a clever way of parsing words to state that Zimmerman’s reply of “yeah” to the dispatcher’s question to Martin’s whereabouts is somehow not confirmation that Martin was spotted in the area of the clubhouse? Zimmerman began his entire conversation about the “suspicious” guy he sees at the “best address he can give” as the clubhouse. And presumably Martin is still walking for the duration of his conversation, “looking at houses”. If Zimmerman were parked at his SUVs final location, he sure couldn’t see the area in front of the clubhouse, so it’s likely Martin was in his line of site to the east side of the building/pool area.
Nor did I say he was “at” the clubhouse. You’re imagining things. I’m merely pointing out your error in saying that Zimmerman didn’t say Martin was in the clubhouse area. But if you want to be a noodge, technically, he didn’t. He confirmed to the dispatcher that he was in the clubhouse area, just as he noted when he gave them the “nearest address”.
Ah yes… more parsing of words. The “stand down” phrase is one to mimic Mr. drj, who tends to use that phrase quite a bit. But you won’t be the first to play the game that the dispatcher’s warning not to follow… which also happens to be the guidelines of neighborhood watch volunteers on duty… wasn’t really anything to take seriously. Certainly it’s not an order. It’s not illegal. There’s no fines and fees involved when you disobey that warning.
On the other hand, when you are advised to not pursue a “suspicious person”, and you not only do but end up killing the guy, that will be taken into consideration for who escalated the situation to the final violent moment… as it should.
By the way, how is it you know which side of the street, and which way Zimmerman’s SUV was facing? We’ve seen the location described and marked, but if you are in possession of which way the car was facing, you’ll be ahead of everyone else who wasn’t there to see for themselves.
Don’t know what it matters whether Martin did, or did not go to the 7-11. Regardless of his penchant for skittles, or not, Martin was still doing nothing illegal in a neighborhood where he had a full right to be. Irrelevant.
Perhaps more relevant is why Zimmerman is adamant about telling police was he was on a “personal errand” and not “patrolling”. Maybe because of his armed status? If he were on a personal errand, he was certainly taking a circuitous and long route home. Twin Trees Lane and that spot is no where on the way to his residence from either gate.
As far as most of the rest of your post… all speculation on your part. Fact is, we only know a few things for fact:
1: That Martin was first spotted in the clubhouse area
2: That he wasn’t engaged in any illegal activity walking around the ‘hood
3: That Zimmerman exited his car and moved at a fast pace for 33 seconds to “follow”
4: That Zimmerman had plenty of time to return to his car after hanging up before the confrontation.
That’s it in a nutshell. Martin’s movements, for sure, are unknown. If Martin were actually closer to the Retreat View intersection, and ran “towards the back gate”, which was SE of his location, he could have turned east Retreat View and circled the block to get to that same pathway. That’s about 660 ft in distance and would take 2 minutes 12 seconds if he were doing the same fast pace as Zimmerman. Did he go that route? Who knows? But it’s also not impossible with the timing, and his way home is still to cut back to the site of death, but from the east instead.
Now, with drj’s Aesop’s fable, we’re supposed to believe that Zimmerman, curious about this “suspicious” drugged up hoodlum in his neighborhood, allowed Martin to walk right by his truck and he didn’t roll down the window and say a word. uh… if you wanted to know, and from the safety of your SUV, would that not be the moment to ID yourself as the watch guy, and ask if he’s from the complex?
He didn’t…. suspicious actions by Zimmerman if Martin did saunter on by, don’t you think? Giving the benefit of the doubt to Zimmerman, not being that stupid as to miss that obvious chance, there is just as much likelihood that Martin went around the block. But again… who knows.
If you’re being followed, do you plan an attack while chit chatting on the phone with the gal pal? Seems to be somewhat foolhardy a distraction, if you’re thinking you’ll be in a fist fight. Instead we get varying family second hand counts that Martin attacked him from behind. No wait, from the side…. No, wait again… he jumped out in front of him. ???? Until we hear from George, or see his affidavit for that evening, we don’t know squat. And I’m inclined to stick to the four points I made above that we do know.
But I’ll add a fifth point here. What we do know is that the Zimmerman story we have heard about via media, and using SYG as get out of jail free card, leaks like a sieve when you scrutinize the timing and events. However, from what the media says (yes, that’s a caveat), the police didn’t check Martin’s cell logs, contact the girlfriend, etc during the original investigation. And that would certainly be a major error.
tom
they attack that’s why they get killed,
if they use violence they should expect not to get away all the time,
because they will have to be confronted when they least expecting it,
and they pay for their previous crime on another stage they activate without expecting it,
that’s what you where asking, didn’t you?
that is the way life is, and when your young, you don’t know that secret, until it hit you in your face,
your actions always follow you
@drjohn: Do any of you think that Jeb Bush knows more about what happened that any of us? There is so much speculation here. Last time I looked Jeb Bush was not a Judge or Jury. I am amazed at how much speculation is going on here with out all of the facts. Yes, we all have some of the facts, but none of us writing here has all of the facts.
@drjohn:
COMPL does mean complainant.
The log says connection was made at 7:09:34.
Then listen to the recording. When does Zimmerman tell the dispatcher that Martin is in his “late teens”? Add that time to 7:09:34, and notice when the first REM is. Also the log says 19:11:12 is when it was “created”. That was also about the time that Martin was coming towards Zimmerman, and the dispatcher was telling Zimmerman to tell him if Martin “does anything”.
“EVA snoffke” is logged at this time. “snoffke” (S. Noffke?) is apparently the dispatcher. See the “By: snoffke” in the header.
Also DIS S1312 is apparently dispatch Officer Ayala 5 seconds later. See header for Ayala and Smith IDs. These are the two officers who first responded. Smith apprehended Zimmerman, Ayala tried to revive Martin.
The next REM is after Martin. Check the time when Zimmerman actually said that Martin was running toward the back entrance. Not just running, or running toward the other entrance.
The next REM is COMPLainant will 1056 (meet?) at mailboxes. This one is odd, because the REM time is before the time on the recording. But this meeting place was suggested by the dispatcher. The dispatcher did not know the address where Zimmerman’s truck was parked – because Zimmerman didn’t know; and Zimmerman didn’t want to meet him at his home which I think is in the SW corner of the neighborhood. The first officer had been ENRout for a minute at this time. While it would be logical for Zimmerman to try to explain how to find him; it would not be what the dispatcher wanted.
The final REM is COMPLainant request LEO 1045 (call?) before 1056 (meet?).
The end of the call is calculated from the length of the recording and the start of the call. There is a bit of dead air at the end.
@ Tom
Tom I acknowledged TM’s death in my post to pbunt. A young man on the threshold of adulthood died violently. Failure is apparent on both sides. I have posted before that both party’s characters are not the issue. Inference can and has been made against both. Do we know exactly how TM was behaving?Could he having found himself outside of adult supervision, in a neighborhood he knew he was leaving,and indulged in the same type of behavior that had already yielded a backpack with a contents of suspect origin. No one can say. Nor can they infer a reckless disregard for human life on GZ’s part. GZ should never have let the run in go sideways. TM for whatever reason should have had a default reaction to GZ that did not involve violent action. Tom I came here because so many forums are becoming knee-jerk reactionary mirrors of their base philosophies. There is a lot of really high -octane intellect here. People here are engaged and passionate almost to excess. Occam’s Razor has to do with simple reason and sometimes life and actions don’t lend themselves to easy resolution. There is so much blame and failure to share and no willingness to accept any of it. Ben Crump is a racist and hate peddler trying to pass himself off altruistically advocating for another poor black child killed by a racist America. He and the rest have been throwing all the crap they can before the physical forensic results come to court and resolve what happened between the last call in the log and the gunshot. Forensics are going to show that they were in a ground fight and control of the pistol was being contested. When that happens all the bets are off.
@MataHarley:
There is also an arrival ARV by officer Smith at 7:17:11. I don’t know, but my guess is that this is when he pulls up in front, and hits something on his radio and jumps out. It is conceivable that he knows that the action is between buildings and drives across the lawn.
One of the 911 phone calls made immediately after the shooting reports flashlights at 1:04 into the call. This is apparently the caller who heard and saw the struggle, and ran inside to call 911 when he heard the shot. And he was able to look out and see the body. So guess the amount of time between the shot and when he dialed 911, and how long it took him to perceive flashlights (assuming there are no insane neighbors who would go wandering around outside with a flashlight after hearing a a gunshot), and how long it took Officer Smith to be coming into the backyard with a flashlight (Smith is who apprehended Zimmerman).
The call with screaming, has 46 seconds of screaming before the shot. There is another call that does report argument before the yelling and screaming. So the altercation probably began about 1 minute before the gunshot.
jimrtex, never disputed that the entire thing took a minute or less. Said that from the original thread where I was active quite some time ago. When the officer arrived on the scene, Martin was dead. If Martin were on the phone with his girlfriend and for at least four full minutes (seconds aside, which we don’t know until we see detailed call logs that precise), it happened around 7:16.
May even have taken less than a minute, if you consider how long it takes to be decked, get your head banged a couple of times while screaming. At least that’s the Zimmerman side, per the media. Then again, two voice analysts say the probability of it being Zimmerman yelling are slim. Again, who knows. We sticks with what we knows. And what we do know is that from the time that Zimmerman hung up with 911, he had time to return to the vehicle many times over.
What the state investigation will consider, focusing on whether SYG was appropriate use, is whether charges should be brought in order to question whether there was excessive force to repel an unarmed attacker. And if Martin did indeed pass Zimmerman, without him simply asking about Martin’s presence there when it would have been less charged, that should also be scrutinized as proper handling of the situation. I’m convinced of nothing except two things:
1: It ain’t as cut and dried as the media reports of Zimmerman’s story seem to be and
2: We’ve got more important fish to fry in the nation then spending time on eight threads in 12 days devoted to speculation, cross partisan cries of racism, and racing to Zimmerman’s defense. That’s the job of the investigation and attorneys. But what is real is that the only way that investigation got reopened was by public outcry. I’m frankly content to wait for the outcome, and spent most of the rest of last week focusing on the SCOTUS and o’healthcare.
And speaking of that, I’ve again ante’d up on my original two cents, hoping to curtail the runaway train from reason, and bolting out of this once again. If you want the racism fires to die down, as they will in this nation that has the news attention of a gnat, then don’t keep hyping the story and BS on a daily basis. Otherwise you’re just fueling the fire.
Now we’ll have to see if the feds will intervene and attempt to freeze all states’ SYG laws, as they have threatened.
@ Tom
In 50 years of observing people and life in general I think everybody is to an extent the architect of our own failures. Some of those are subtle and some not so. That TM will never make another is probably a salve to some and a real tragedy to others. I do have a problem when people especially in the media and those with access to it, refuse to link action and reaction. As far as participants here are concerned I haven’t found any to be lockstep predictable. I’m just trying hard to keep up.
@Brian:
You seem like a thoughtful guy, but you also seem several degrees tilted away from what I personally would consider to be a balanced evaluation of this situation. Having read many of your posts on the topic, I can’t understand why you keep returning to this refrain:
I can’t fathom why you think a person’s past, his personal familial situation, or the contents of his backpack (as I asked, Dr John, did GZ have X-ray vision?) are mitigating circumstances in why said person was shot while breaking no laws walking down the street. Do you support the notion, for example, that any Joe, Dick or Harry has the unilateral power to walk up to you and demand to look inside your personal bag under pain of death, just because you’re in his neighborhood? In the end, it just seems to me like you’re trying to peddle stereotypes. This kid looked like a criminal, so it’s kind of his fault for being taken for one. That’s a pretty weak argument.
@Brian:
You talk like you knew Trayvon Marin very well. You knew all about his failures at least, enough to calibrate that unerring judgement of yours to opine on just what his life was worth, and you’ve come out with a resounding, “meh”. To be in the perfect position to judge his life, and his death: I wonder where that comes from. I say this having two bothers whom i would never claim such power of insight and judgement over.
@Brian:
I don’t agree with that at all. Are you telling me that if you were walking down the street and a person with a gun followed you, and in attempted to defend yourself, he shot and killed you, that’s not at the very least manslaughter? GZ put TM in a situation with limited options. Even if he chose the worst option, I would still hold GZ responsible because TM did nothing wrong but stumble into a nightmare situation of GZ’s design. Your line of argument is so ridiculously moralistic at it’s core. If a kid sneaks out at night to go to party and a drunk driver runs him down while he’s walking down the street, is it the kid’s fault for breaking his curfew? Should we always focus on the victim’s character, ask why he was out of house, posit the theory that his presence on that dark street put the driver into a no win situation? That’s seems to be your entire argument: TM wasn’t an alter boy (according to Dr John’s smears) so I judge him at least partially culpable in his own death.
@ Tom
I tried to say that neither of the two can be assessed truly by their prior actions. I don’t know what was going on in TM’s mind. I can apply what I know my mental and behavioral state was at seventeen.I was known to “borrow” firewood from the local BBQs and take it down to river and drink god awful cheap beer around the fire. There are no seventeen year old angels.I can read and weigh what his reported behavior and personality show. Can I reasonably infer that he was as bad as painted by his detractors, not honestly. I can’t any more do that for GZ either. The truth is in between, both men failed when decisions they made carried irreversible consequences. I don’t believe anyone outside of a legally authorized individual has any right to search and seizure. TM’s school security had and did find suspect materials in a bag he possessed. GZ had been a visible and to some probably a little discomfitting advocate for neighborhood security. Do I get where he was at? Yes, I can see it because I have had to deal with property crime and the mess it leaves behind.
I’ve posted the numbers of and types of property crime at GZ’s complex. I find those numbers to be reason enough for residents to have CHLs. I haven’t done so but I want to plug the street address into one of the crime mapping sites and look at what kind of crime and frequency are present. Was GZ totally out of bounds to want to determine TM’s purpose there? I don’t think so. I’ve done the same and many of my neighbors will stop and talk to strangers or call in strange vehicles. My stepson came home on leave, didn’t have a gate key, left his car a the gate and walked up to the house. Neighbor called in on the car. Funny at the time,proved a good point. I genuinely feel for TM’s family, their grief has been hijacked and used for political and monetary gain. Did his family fail him? Just as much as a culture that allows and accepts criminality, illegitimacy, illiteracy and denial of personal responsibility. Mama probably had all she wanted of TM testing her limits and rules. Broken homes put pressures on kids. Acting out, disobedience, and attitude happen in two parent homes. Single parents can’t always deal with a two parent job. The truth is in between we aren’t in the jury box and Ifeel for those who end up there.
Brian
I thought the attack of a man 85 year old by a group of black teen ages while he was alone, cowardly
they kept beating him while he was on the ground as some holding him so they could kick him and one saying kill him and telling him it was for TRAYVON, WAS HORRIBLE AND COMING STRAIT FROM THE SHARPTON AND OTHER IN THE WHITE HOUSE ENCOURAGING THOSE ACTIONS
THE MAN SAID HE NEVER THOUGHT HE COULD NEED TO ARM HIMSELF, BUT HE WILL AFTER THIS ONE
they are inciting and they know those gangs together are out to no good and feel strong by their numbers,
and will find in their quest to crime that some give them a well deserve lesson when they wont expect it,
TOM LIKE TO COME AND PLAY WITH SOMEONE WHO HE GET THE ATTENTION FROM,
AND TRY TO SMEAR WORDS FROM THOSE WHO DON’T KNOW HIS INTENT, we are aware of his game which he repeat the same way every time,
bye
@ Tom
The forensics are governed by physical law. I posted early on that a very well known and widely accepted figure in the LE community had been told that GZ’s PF-9 HAD been taken into evidence at the scene with a full magazine and a SPENT casing still in the chamber. Kel -Tec Designed the PF-9 to be the smallest possible design around the 9×19 mm cartridge. The trade off for size and weight is in the slide. The slide has to have enough mass to reliably cycle. Maintaining that design criteria means that the PF-9 slide’s mass is the minimum to ensure function. The slide on GZ’s pistol had not cycled because of some type of interference equal or greater than it’s mass and recoil impulse. That would have occurred if someone had been trying to pull the pistol away from the shooter. It is reasonable to infer from this and the location of the bullet strike and relative positions of both men that there would be powder burns, stippling from unburned powder on TM’s skin and clothing and GSR and the hands of both men. If that is the case it fits the witness visual and GZ’s statement and probably the true belief of the SPD investigator. Tom I put fault on both of them. TM wasn’t strolling down the street . He decided to confront the person following him. Was GZ wrong to follow?
If his intent was to maintain visual contact i think not. Was he wrong to inquire of TM as to his purpose? No, if the verbal contact had yielded a simple, simple sociable reply instead of a fist strike the two could have gone their own ways. There is no way either of them could pull back the fist or put the bullet back in the gun. Poor judgement was exercised by both . I cannot attribute TM’s actions before the fight to any nefarious nature, I don’t know nor does anybody else. Whatever motivation was behind GZ’s action is equally unclear. TM is no more a martyr to Castle Doctrine than he is a pure and angelic soul. he made a man’s mistake and he paid for it. GZ failed to keep himself clear of an altercation that resulted in use of lethal force. I believe Det. Serino had filed a capious warrant for manslaughter with Seminole Co. SA’s office. That would not have been unreasonable nor would it being taken to a grand jury. There is a great desire on some peoples part to make GZ’s actions fit into a stalking/executing narrative. Everything that is in evidence points to him being surprised and having to react to a completely unexpected attack. That is how I read it, I am open to anything I can be shown that can refute what is in evidence of that nights actions.
@ILOVEBEESWARZONE
Tom wants me to believe that he is stuck on placing all the fault on GZ and racial profiling. He knows perfectly well that blame is upon both men. What I would hope is that sees the sorry use that others are making of a young man’s death to further agendas and settle political scores. I have been around the barn enough times to appreciate veiled provocation as an art form. Tom elevates it to high level.
Brian
drjohn open another POST on this same subject too, and the story I JUST TOLD YOU IS THERE AT THE BEGINNING AT Nan comment, and there is also the exchange of messages between ZIMMERMAN AND THE DISPACHER ON ANOTHER COMMENT FOLLOWING
IF YOU WANT TO CHECK IT, THE NAME OF THE POST IS; THE EVOLUTION OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN
BYE
Brian
yes I notice that, and he is well known here.
bye
For those of you who have not seen, the NYT has a decent graphical representation of the area surrounding the shooting.
Viewing the physical layout of the cut-through between the town homes may help to answer some questions.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/04/02/us/the-events-leading-to-the-shooting-of-trayvon-martin.html?ref=us
@jimrtex: I’ll buy that. The confusion comes out of the event being “created” at 17:11:12.
Zimmerman may have gotten out of his car believing his was following the advice of the dispatcher who said “Let me know if he does anything else” or words close to that. And Martin still had lots of time to make it to Green’s house but chose not to do so.
@Brian:
Well, that’s where we differ. There is no hard evidence that TM did anything wrong, unless you’re suggesting walking down the street to someone’s house is wrong, or intrinsically suspicious. It’s not intrinsically suspicious. It took what resides in GZ head to make it so.
Pure speculation. We don’t know exactly what happened at the end. You seem to assume TM jumped out from a bush or something, or doubled-back on a (not-very-aware) GZ. Well what if in reality TM continued walking until GZ grabbed his shoulder and spun him around. Would TM’s assuming a defensive posture at that moment constitute “confronting” GZ? GZ initiated the entire encounter well before it got to the point either of these scenarios played out. He will always be ultimately responsible for the incident, because he was the one who initiated it, and who maintained the initiative throughout. He could have ended it before it started, or multiple times following his initial sighting of TM.
It was extremely poor judgement to follow someone in a residential neighborhood while armed against the direct recommendation of the police, and in violation of all Neighborhood watch protocol. That poor judgement led to TM’s death. So while I can’t say whether the act of following in and of itself was wrong in a legal sense, the shooting almost certainly was, and sprung out of that poor decision.
Again, are you suggesting TM doesn’t have an expectation of safety and privacy walking to an acquaintance’s house?
Equally unclear? We have GZ’s pattern of frequently calling 911 under the auspices of the neighborhood watch. We have the 911 tape where GZ states why he’s folloing TM – he deems him “suspicious”. I think we have a pretty good idea of what motivated GZ that night.
This doesn’t mean I consider GZ to be a cartoon villian. Don’t fall for the oft expressed Dr. John canard that GZ can only be guilty if he was a raging homicidal maniac. GZ appeared overzealous in his watch activities, and was possibly a LE wanna-be with an itchy trigger finger. However, I don’t think he walked out the that night looking to kill anyone, and I imagine he’s full of regret.
Again, please explain how walking down the street to an acquaintance’s residence is a “mistake”
@Brian:
You might try shining that righteous light inward and ask yourself why your contorting all logic and inverting cause and effect in this particular case. Who is being political? Am I the one who keeps talking about the characters of both individuals, their upbringings, the parenting skills in their households? You’re the culture warrior here, not me. I just think people should be able to walk down the street unmolested.
@ilovebeeswarzone:
… and among the legions of the banned at Little Green Footballs.
I am grateful for your kind words as I am bemused by my fate 😉
I visit Flopping Aces among other website often. On occasion I have time to engage in comment. I hope I bring value to the table when I have an opportunity to comment.
Thank you again for you kind words.. And thank you all for helping shape my thoughts on this matter.
@MataHarley:
I rest my case.
From Tom Maguire
Mike O’Malley
hi,
yes you bring much values here, and it caught attention and respect from other,
that’s why I answered like I did, I never can resist expressing my thoughts,
because that’s what CURT THE OWNER WANT FROM US ALL, AND THAT GOT ME TO STAY HERE AT FLOPPING ACES IT IS MY FAVORITES HANG OUT IN THE CYBER WORLD,
and we always grow more every time and here the smart one come to comment and make this blog so interesting, it lead me to believe the CONSERVATIVES SHOULD TAKE THE POWER OF THE WHITE HOUSE, BECAUSE OF THEIR TOLERANCE, INTELLIGENCE AND WISDOM TO BE THE LEADER OF THE UNITED STATES OF THE AMERICA THEY LOVE AND SEE HOW MISERABLE SHE WAS LEAD TO BECOME
AT THIS TIME SO IMPORTANT TO TAKE HOLD TOTALLY RESTORE THE BROKEN DOWN VALUES WHICH MADE HER THE GREATEST ONE OF THE WORLD SINCE HER BEGINNING QUEST FOR FREEDOM IN THE WORLD WHILE KEEPING HER NAME OF AMERICA ONLY,
AND NOT BLENDED WITH WORLD ORGANIZATIONS ENVIOUS AND TRYING TO TAKE OVER AMERICA AND IMPOSE THEIR OWN CONSTITUTION AND AGENDA WHICH ARE VERY ACCEPTED BY THE LEADERS IN POWER AT THIS TIME HELPING THE GLOBAL AGENDA TO CONQUER AMERICA ,
WHICH WOULD SINK AMERICA AND DESTROY ALL WHAT THE FRAMERS PLANNED FOR HER TO BE FOREVER FREE AND PROTECTED,
BYE
@ Tom
I have previously posted that I do not know what was going on in either man’s mind. You seem to have GZ’s intent and motivation pegged to a fault. You can stay stuck on the idea that a person who appears to be a stranger and may have been behaving in a manner that drew attention to those actions is above being approached and civilly engaged by a resident of that neighborhood. That exchange never took place because TM decided react to GZ with a sudden and violent attack. If all TM wanted to do was to avoid any contact he could easily have done so. GZ was struck to the ground by TM, his injuries fit the narrative GZ has maintained and are consistent with the eyewitness statement as given. Because the evidence doesn’t support your desire or need to paint an oversimplified version of events don’t cast aspersions on what I have expressed based on the evidence as I am able to interpret it. You seem to think that a dispatcher’s directives or Neighborhood Watch
guidelines carry force of law. Please cite. If either does I will stand corrected. You seem far too intelligent to manufacture outrage over something that is in no way as simplistic as you paint it.You are very ready to place all wrong on GZ. You place all the fault on someone who has the injuries
consistent with a criminal assault and don’t hold TM responsible for those injuries in any way. TM made a mistake when he decided to confront GZ with force.He was more than capable of evading or avoiding GZ if that had been what he wanted to do. The bulk of the posts on this thread have established the time available and distances that apply to both men. I have acknowledged that circumstances, motivation and histories of both go toward what can be inferred but not proven about each mans character. I have given more benefit of doubt to both than what you will give to GZ. The idea that allowing the system and due process to to take place is racist and abrogating GZ’s rights is not is where you and I diverge. Trying to put the burden of proof on GZ ignores the rather obvious fact that whatever TM felt or feared doesn’t change the violent response he chose when he had other options.
@Mike O’Malley:
The next time you comment I really do hope you will take the time to address the Exit Question that I posed to you on 4/4:
The question is really not that difficult, especially since you’ve attempted to demonstrate an (apparently) clairvoyant knowledge of the Martin household, the parenting decisions made or not made by the Martins and, ultimately, how those decisions played a role in the events of Feb 26th.
So…I’m truly curious, and genuinely interested, in knowing the answer to that question if, of course, you’re willing to spare the time. Considering your authoritative knowledge on parenting decisions (and parenting in general), I do hope that your answer will include specificity and great detail because we could all benefit from your superior knowledge on the topic.
Perhaps, if you have difficulty answering the Exit Question by yourself, you can enroll the assistance of the others here who have chosen to follow your well-trod, machete-hacked path into sullying the parents of Trayvon Martin with their own scurrilous accusations.
I don’t really expect you to answer though.
You’ve already proven that you have a tendency to scurry rather than stand and deliver using “time” as an excuse. You’ve also proven that you will shamelessly engage in the ungentlemanly behavior of twisting another man’s words and then never return to make things right when called out on it.
Quite frankly, I find that duck and run behavior disquieting.
An interlocutor worthy of any sort of respect whatsoever would a) not engage in such behavior and b) would make every effort to clear the air in the event he found himself in such an untenable and unfortunate position.
@MataHarley:
It is apparent that you have offered a graph that encompasses ALL VIOLENT CRIME in FL FROM 1990 TO 2010. Those cases can include a punch in the nose, to rape, shootings and crme fatalities. We are talking about an increase in Justifiable Homicide (SYG) since the law was enacted in ’05. By all means, it has increased.
Before SYG became law, most cases of justifiable homicide were decided by a jury. Since SYG, police, the state attorney and judges decide whether a case is justifiable homicide or not. With a stroke of a pen, any police dept. can reach for a form and enter Justifiable Homicide, Stand Your Ground Envoked and it can all end right there. However, questions were raised in this case by one disagreeing policeman, the victim’s family, the public and media. In my opinion, the public felt compelled to take the place of a jury which was in absence. It is not beyond the realm of possibility for the (powers that be) to short shirt a case and throw it in the Stand Your Ground bin.
Brian
yes, and my take are that at the end , TRAYVON PROVE
ZIMMERMAN’S DOUBT TO BE RIGHT ON THE DOT,
HE SAW A POTENTIAL TROUBLE FROM TRAYVON, HE DIDN’T KNOW MORE
OF WHAT WAS TO COME, BUT HIS GUT’S FEELING DID TELL HIM.
THE YOUNG DON’T KNOW THAT UNTIL THEY GET OLDER, THAT’S WHY THEY GET IN TROUBLE, AND NEED PARENTAL FOLLOW UP UNTIL THEY LEARN TO OBEY THEIR GUT’S FEELING TELLING THEM, DON’T GO THERE, DON’T DO IT, TAKE THAT THOUGHT OUT OF YOUR BRAIN BECAUSE THIS THOUGHT MEAN TROUBLE, IN OTHER SIMPLE WORDS THIS IS THE DANGER ZONE OF THE BRAIN TO LISTEN TO,
SPECILY FOR THOSE YOUNG OF ANY AGES, WHO LIKE TO BELONG TO GANGS WHICH MAKE THEM FEEL STRONG BECAUSE THEY ARE COWARD AS ONE.
BYE
C. LINDY
YOU MAKE A LOT OF SENSE, AND THAT’S WHY WE ALL TRYING TO DO, WITH ASSUMING
ON THE INFO’S COMING ON AND ON,
and, it’s okay to assume for us each or together, because we don’t have a role to play in the end decisions
of the ones in charge of the case, it’s only interesting to learn of other ideas and logic of judgement
in elucidate a police case, which now we find they have a difficult job to conclude who is to be punish,
what for exactly, what was the intent at the time, which they might never know,
bye
@Brian:
You have evidence to support these claims?
I do not believe it’s not an oversimplification to state that there is no credible evidence that TM was breaking any laws at the time GZ decided to follow him, having deemed him “suspicious”. I do not believe it’s an oversimplification to state that a person breaking no laws has a right to walk down a public street in America unmolested. Additionally, I personally refuse to go down a rabbit hole where we try to tie a citizen’s rights to a nearly instantaneous subjective judgement made by a third party, one based entirely upon visual evidence (Is it a man or a women? How old is he? How is he dressed? etc.) I also refuse to take part in reverse-engineering a cause of death based on moral judgments of how the victim lived his life that are not pertinent to the incident itself and were completely unknown to the perpetrator at the time of the incident, and thus irrelevant.
Is all that also too much of an over-simplification? Perhaps it’s the laborious over-complication we should be wary of. This idea that if we can conceive of a one-in-a-million scenario where the victim is actually the perpetrator, then it’s a stalemate.
Brian, that’s simply not true. Please go back and read what I wrote:
from my post above:
back to your post:
Sigh. Please point our where I stated that allowing due process is racist? Obviously due process should take place. That’s the whole point! TM’s family wanted an investigation, get it?
As much as you keep insisting that you’re keeping an open mind and not jumping to conclusions, I think it’s pretty clear you’ve formed an opinion, so please don’t throw this painfully inconsistent “open mind” of yours back in other peoples’ faces just because you disagree with their interpretation of the same available information, and then throw in race for good measure. Feel free to stand by your opinions and argue in good faith, but if you’re going to spin paragraph after paragraph of pro-Zimmerman apologia, don’t retreat to your fabled impartiality every time it suits your needs to paint me as some crazy guy who has jumped to all sorts of conclusions!
@ ilovebeeswarzone
The link posted at #33 gives some new bits of info. There is still a need for more clarity. We will have to take what we can get until we get the missing pieces.
Brian
yes I just read it, I think we where pretty good on the right track, by this new info,
thank you for letting me know that,
bye
@MataHarley:
But of what relevance is this? Are you going to be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the dispatcher requested Zimmerman to return to his truck? Are you going to prove that Zimmerman was going to return to his truck?
The dispatcher asked Zimmerman whether he wanted to meet with the dispatcher. Zimmerman said yes.
The dispatcher asked Zimmerman where he wanted to meet. Zimmerman started to explain where he was at. The dispatcher got sidetracked asking for the address of the truck, and then Zimmerman’s home address. The dispatcher suggested a meeting place by the mailboxes. Zimmerman agreed, but realized that this was almost as stupid as meeting at his house.
Zimmerman clearly says that he wants the police officer to call him so he can tell him “where he is at”. Are you going to be able to prove “where he is at” does not mean “where he is at”?
@Tom: @Tom:
We have a calling frequency of under less than one call per month. We have a call where Zimmerman reports a motorcycle weaving in and out of traffic and doing wheelies on I-4 in Altamonte Springs which is nowhere near Sanford. We have him reporting chugholes and trash on the road, and a Orange County vehicle cutting off cars. We have him reporting arguments between older people and middle aged persons, and man and woman. Loud music at 4 am. He even have one where he says that the police officer at the previous night’s neighborhood watch meeting had told them to report anything suspicious, so he was reporting an open garage.
jimrtex
hi, that is a good find, and new, at least for me,
just like an EASTER EGG,
BYE
DID ANYONE check down on sanford link at the ; MUG SHOT HALL OF SHAME,
INDIVIDUALS ARRESTED IN THE FLORIDA TOWN,
they all look alike, that is ugly
@ Tom
The only thing you have shown me is that you are unable or unwilling to attribute any fault to TM. Is he somehow exempt from personal responsibility for his actions? Explain to me why GZ’s CHL is rendered invalid because of his other activities like living in that complex. Does Neighborhood Watch govern his right to carry 24/7/365? People want to make them exclusive of each other, is going about his business and carrying nullified because of a sign at the gate. Where is the delineation? Is carry only allowed in GZ’s home or on the street outside the gate? You accept the Tea and Skittles narrative on TM’s part. Is GZ’s errand running any less acceptable? You and others seem to try and frame GZ as being on patrol 24/7. Is it a given that TM was shielded from any inquiry on GZ’s part? If it is a violation of one’s civil rights to identify their domicile, then people’s rights are abridged everyday if they are asked to show residence before using facilities set aside for HOA members in every city in the nation.You may see your views vindicated in civil litigation but the facts that are coming together are in GZ’s favor. We know when and where the fight took place. Can anyone who was not there infer anything that is not based in tangible evidence and the statements of GZ and witness? Is it your belief that GZ should have allowed TM to continue the assault to the point of death or debilitating injury because he tried to determine TM’s place of residence? As I have stated there is fault to be apportioned to both men. Is it right to give TM a pass because his default response was physical instead of verbal? Indignation and irritation heal. Sucking chest wounds not so much.
@jimrtex:
Oh that’s all? Just so we can get a baseline here, what’s your call frequency?
@ Tom
As far as investigation was concerned it had moved to the State Attorneys Office and a grand jury had been scheduled. The case was being handled in normal fashion. Det. Serino stated on Mar.17 that SPD and States’ Attorney were working together and going forward as per norm. The accusations came because Parks & Crump needed those allegations to leverage the public against GZ and SPD. They wanted to shape the case. Calling for GZ’s arrest pending the grand jury indictment was based solely on his ethnicity and perception that collusion between the agencies had occurred. The Seminole County State’s Attys. Office addressed those charges. The local media carried it the MSM ignored it. If the Martin’s and their handler’s had wanted the case to be heard, they should have let it proceed. Pressuring the Gov. to replace the ASA and try the case in the public eye with a court of their choosing, is motivated by eventual payout instead of justice.
drjohn
please allow me another important danger story, which everyone should know,
it came on tTV YESTERDAY, BUT NOT A RECENT STORY, BUT COULD HAPPEN AGAIN;
THIS WOMAN TAKE HER DOGS OUT FOR A WALK 2 BIG DOGS, THEY START TO BARK
CRAZY, STANDING STILL. SHE PULL THEM TO HER, THEY ARE NOT MOVING, SHE TRY
ON AND ON, THEY ARE NOT MOVING, THEY ARE STANDING ON YOU KNOW THOSE IRON PLATES ON SOME SIDE WALK AND ALSO STREETS , THIS IS IN NEW YORK , SUDDENLY ONE FALL DEAD, SHE SCREAM FOR HELP THE OTHER DOG FALL DEAD TOO, SHE WALK OVER ON THE IRON PLATE
TOUCH HER DOG , SHE FALL DEAD, AND THE POLICE WAS CALLED ARRIVE AND ONE COME TO CHECK THE WOMAN FALL DEAD,ELECTROCUTED BY TWO BIG huge WIRES containing many smaller wires UNDER THE STREETS OF NEW YORK
WHICH BROKE AND ARE LIKE SNAKES TOUCHING THE IRON PLATE WHERE THE DOGS GOT THE SHOCKS AND COULD NOT MOVE AWAY BARKING UNTIL THEY DIED AND THE WOMAN GOT ELECTROCUTED TOUCHING HER DOGS WHILE STANDING ON THE IRON PLATE AND THE OFFICER TOUCH THE WOMAN AND GOT ELECTROCUTED SAME WAY,
IN NEW YORK THERE IS MANY THOUSANDS OF THOSE HUGE WIRES AND SOME GET OLD AND SNAP OPEN AND BECOME SNAKES UNDER THE GROUND WHERE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WALK.
IS IN IT QUITE A STORY SO SCARY TO KNOW, NOT TO PUT YOUR FEET ON THOSE IRON PLATE WHICH HAVE MANY OPEN HOLES IN TO LET THE ELECTRIC CURRENT KILL ANYONE AND BAREFOOT DOGS WHO STEP ON ONE WHEN WIRE HAPPEN TO SNAP OPEN, WHO WOULD HAVE KNOWN?
THAT’S WHY I’M TELLING
BYE
@Brian:
Why would I seek to attribute fault to him when no evidence has come to light suggesting he was doing anything wrong by walking down the street minding his own business? You have a strange definition of “wrong”. Is walking down the street wrong? Feel free to answer that question at any time. I can keep asking it.
Let’s look at it this way. From the recorded 911 call we know that GZ made the following tragic decision: he decided to follow TM, against police advice. That’s something we know straight from the mouth of GZ. Is there rock solid evidence that TM did something wrong that rises to the level of the 911 call? No, there isn’t. All there is is your speculation about what TM might have done, and that’s all it is: speculation. You are piecing together a puzzle, grabbing a scrap from here, and a scrap from there, to support your theories that TM somehow flipped the initiative in the encounter, going from GZ’s quarry to his assailant. But you have absolutely nothing approaching unambiguous proof to back it up.
So please tell me why would I abandon all common sense and logic to “attribute any fault” to TM? I know for a fact that GZ made a horrible mistake, at the very least. There is no evidence commensurate with the 911 call linking TM to wrongdoing. If there is please share. What on Earth drives a person to abandon all logic and bend over backwards to piece together a version of reality where a dead teen is at “fault”? I can’t even fathom the motivation. And then to compound it with the truly ugly sight of attacking the characters of the victim and his family. That’s pretty low. Blame the victim is a desperate and ugly strategy.
The only important consideration is that he was in fact carrying at that time. Therefore, whether or not he was officially “0n patrol”, he should have had the sense to not exit his car and follow TM after calling 911. By choosing to follow TM while armed and initiate contact, he put them both in a potentially deadly situation. GZ had all the power and initiative. He could have simply let the police do their job. He chose not to. This is what I always come back to when I think about this, and I’m sure GZ comes back to it too.