Let’s look at the Martin/Zimmerman timeline.
First we have to audio clip that Mata provided for us.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9A-gp8mrdw[/youtube]
And the transcript is here
The official audio can be downloaded here.
To begin with, Zimmerman is in his vehicle (1) as he speaks with the dispatcher. At 0:56 of the clip
“That’s the clubhouse, do you know what the- he’s near the clubhouse right now?”
“Yeah, now he’s coming towards me.”
It does sound as though Martin (2) is walking in a direction away from the clubhouse, toward Zimmerman. Zimmerman says Martin is near the clubhouse, but Zimmerman does not say that he is near the clubhouse. The clubhouse is near the main entrance on Oregon St.
Zimmerman expressed concern that Martin might be carrying something as he approaches:
“He has his hands in his waistband. He is a black male. Something’s wrong with him. Yep. He’s coming to check me out. He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. Send officers over here.”
Zimmerman begins to give instructions as to his location when Martin begins to run and Zimmerman exclaims
“Shit, he’s running.”
At 2:10 of the audio recording, the vehicle door can be heard to open and at 2:14 it closes. By this time Martin has passed from near the clubhouse toward the area between the 13 and 28 buildings. Zimmerman begins to chase and you can hear the rustle of his clothing and his breathing at 2:19. The dispatcher ask if he is chasing Martin and Zimmerman acknowledges that he is. At 2:26 the dispatcher says:
“OK, we don’t need you to do that.”
Zimmerman says “OK” and the rustling ends at 2:42.
At 2:38 Zimmerman says “He ran” and apparently lost sight of Martin. Martin apparently escaped.
Zimmerman remains on the phone with the dispatcher until at least 4:12. During that time he describes his location and directs the dispatcher to the location of his parked car.
Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that’s my truck…[unintelligible]
Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?
Zimmerman: I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address.
That puts Zimmerman’s vehicle on Twin Trees Lane. According to one report, near the bend. Martin apparently fled in between the 28 and 12 buildings toward his father’s girlfriend’s place, located near the back entrance of Twin Lakes. It is the direction Zimmerman described.
Dispatcher: “He’s running? Which way is he running?”
Zimmerman: “Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.”
Zimmerman’s phone call was received at 7:11:12. At 2:42 on the audio, Zimmerman stopped running and lost sight of Martin. That puts it at 7:13:54 or so. Zimmerman continues to speak to the dispatcher until at least 4:12 of the audio, or 7:15:24. It’s reported that the phone call to Brandy Green ended at 7:16. The fight and shooting took place between then and when the police arrived at 7:17.
This is the point the gaps exist.
Zimmerman is reportedly parked on Twin Trees Lane. He says Martin is coming toward him, and then he says Martin runs. Zimmerman says that Martin runs “towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.”(3) That is SE of Zimmerman’s position and it is in the direction of the home of Martin’s girlfriend. (4) Zimmerman begins chase, but then stands down when it was requested he do so and he apparently loses sight of Martin. The question is, which way did Martin run? If he ran down Twin Trees avoiding Zimmerman (5), Zimmerman could keep him in sight for some time. That would put Martin some distance from where the altercation occurred- in between 1321 and 2821, as described in the police report. (6) Martin was initially placed near the clubhouse. If he reversed course, say to head up to Retreat Circle (7), then Zimmerman would not have described him running toward the back entrance on South Oregon. If Martin ran toward the area in between buildings 28 and 12 passing near Zimmerman’s car and then turning the corner, Zimmerman would lose sight of him quickly.
This is all of significance because there was less than a minute in between the time Zimmerman ended the call to the police and the beginning of the altercation as the phone call from Martin to Green is said to have ended at 7:16 and Zimmerman was speaking to the dispatcher until 7:15:24. That’s about 30 seconds for Martin and Zimmerman to come together.
Zimmerman had no idea to where Martin was headed. Zimmerman did not catch Martin while Zimmerman was on the phone and Martin had a head start even if he only “walked fast” he still could outpace Zimmerman. Yet somehow they could not have been farther apart than about 30 seconds closure.
Then we come to some other questions. If Zimmerman was “hunting down” Martin as some have opined, why did he not simply shoot Martin upon encountering him? Why would Zimmerman get so close to Martin that Martin could punch Zimmerman in the face and knock him down if his intention was to kill Martin? (BTW, ABC News has had an epiphany. It has decided that George Zimmerman had injuries after all) Would a person bent on murder allow himself to be assaulted and still expect that he could reach and fire his gun? If Zimmerman was brandishing a gun what could possess Martin to attack him? No reasonable person is going to charge someone aiming a gun at one. Zimmerman agreed to meet with the police as they arrived. Why would he agree to meet them and then chase after Martin to kill him? Why would someone bent on murder hold Martin at gunpoint while he screamed for 40 seconds? Because he wanted witnesses to the murder? Why didn’t Zimmerman run if murder was the goal?
None of this makes any sense.
Now let’s consider what probably happened. Back to the NY Times
Soon, callers to 911 were describing the presence of police officers, and the beams of flashlights gliding over a section of grass a few dozen yards from Trayvon’s destination, where a boy inside was waiting for Skittles.
A few dozen yards. A few is about 3. Three dozen yards. 36-40 yards. 120 feet. George Zimmerman loses sight of Trayvon Martin at 2:38 of the call, or about 7:13:50. Martin has until 7:16 to cover the “few dozen yards” to make it to the safety of Brandy Green’s residence. Zimmerman remains on the phone until 7:15:24. Martin’s girlfriend said the phone call went “dead” at 7:16, but Martin and Zimmerman were already exchanging words. According to Martin’s girlfriend, the conversation was initiated by Martin. The window between the end of Zimmerman’s call to the SPD and the meeting is brief. Really brief.
Martin had over two minutes to reach Green residence. Why didn’t he go there? This suggests strongly that Martin did not go to the Green residence, but instead hid somewhere, waiting for Zimmerman, and then confronted Zimmerman. Martin spoke first to Zimmerman, not the other way around. I think Martin approached Zimmerman’s car from the direction of the clubhouse, passed the car and then bolted. Martin then rounded the corner and hid. Zimmerman pursued until being asked to stop but lost Martin. As Zimmerman turned to head back to his car, Martin came out of hiding and confronted Zimmerman. The rest is history.
DrJohn has been a health care professional for more than 30 years. In addition to clinical practice he has done extensive research and has published widely with over 70 original articles and abstracts in the peer-reviewed literature. DrJohn is well known in his field and has lectured on every continent except for Antarctica. He has been married to the same wonderful lady for over 30 years and has three kids- two sons, both of whom are attorneys and one daughter on her way into the field of education.
DrJohn was brought up with the concept that one can do well if one is prepared to work hard but nothing in life is guaranteed.
Except for liberals being foolish.
2Tom
It is obvious from your repeated statements that TM was minding his business that you feel that makes him immune from any inquiry by anyone. Do you have evidence that TM was not acting in any suspicious manner? You can’t say that anymore than I or anyone else can say he was looking for unlocked windows or patio doors. You keep coming back to GZ disregarding a dispatcher with no force of law behind his direction. There has been from the beginning of this thread the contention that GZ did disengage. You can’t without any evidence to the contrary or any specificity show what GZ’s actions on the grass commons were before he hit the ground. We are not going to agree as to the point where the outcome becomes irreversible. You are entrenched at GZ’s exit from the vehicle. Does that show poor judgement on GZ, yes it does.Does losing sight of a person, whose disposition and intent are unknown reflect poor judgment and awareness ? I think it does , but that is in no way grounds for anyone to administer a beat down. Where is the point that TM’s decision to turn back and turn violent becomes irreversible? I don’t think that I can place that point before the first blow struck home. I didn’t pull that out of thin air. SPD have reported that TM attacked GZ from behind, it has been covered multiple times. The link at #33 restates that. After that occurred only two outcomes were possible and someone was going to end up on a slab. As far as character assassination do you believe the people behind the manufactured outrage have a monopoly on it? Tom you can sharpshoot me all you want. I believe that the forensics will not favor your desired outcome. I have tried to state my beliefs that I have tried to base on facts in evidence. As to the behavior of a section of this society who maintain their own self-victimization, I have commented as to the departure of their demands from those of due process and an equitable finding and into partisanship, hyperbole and furtherance of an agenda. Defending that with your own righteous indignation shows me you want the same monopoly that the people stirring this contrived outrage have.
Hey all you super sleuths, nobody answered my question 2 pages back: On the posted 911 call, we hear someone answer the call saying, “Sanford Police Department.” Following that identification, we hear a short, choppy sentence from the same person. I cannot make out what that short sentence is. I think I hear something about a gun or shots. This 911 call is the initial call Zimmerman made to 911 telling the dispatcher that he had observed a suspicious person. Admittedly, I don’t have the best speakers on my puter.
How ’bout listening to that tape again and let me know what you hear the guy at the Sanford Police Dept. say, right after he says, “Sanford Police Department.” I would be interested in hear what you think he said.
@Brian:
You seem convinced that TM attacked GZ. So be it. I won’t rehash again my viewpoint, other than to state that whether or not GZ is ever charged with a crime, it will always be his poor decision making that caused a tragedy. That’s something he will have to live with I guess. At least he’s alive.
The only other thing I might add is that I suspect many people have found themselves choosing a rooting interest in this based largely upon their feelings regarding provocateurs like Sharpton. That’s a shame, because I think the media has vastly over-inflated their role in the popular outcry surrounding Trayvon’s death and the subsequent actions of the authorities. The focus should be on the many people, the many parents, who have good and legitimate reasons for being concerned over why something like this could happen, not on the politicos hitching a ride on a groundswell of anger.
@Tom:
Tom,
This whole thing is a medai-made tempest.
It needn’t have happened at all.
If the wheels of justice had been allowed to simply roll on the truth (ballistics, powder burns, enhanced sound recordings, cell phone records and so on) would have led to a conclusion.
But that was not allowed to happen.
And who was behind all the made-up astroturfed angst?
Now, because of this, several school kids are in trouble for messing up a drug store, several people have been shot or beaten to screams of, “Remember Trayvon!” and all for what?
All the media, all Obama’s imaginary son, all the hoodies won’t change the facts.
And next week the final report is coming out based on those facts.
People, get ready.
@c. lindy:
I had heard that as well, and couldn’t make it out. It might simply be part of some introductory phase. 911 calls are answered with something like “doyouneedpolicefireormedical?” One of the 911 callers hears that, and asks, “This is 911, correct?” The dispatcher says slower enunciating each word “Correct Do you need police, fire, or medical?” And the caller responds, “Oh I’m sorry, police [tiny pause] or medical”. The pause probably happens as their mind processes the fact that they were probably thinking they needed police, and then realize that shots might need medical treatment.
The Zimmerman call sounds something like “Sanford Police Department wise standard reports a shots” It could be “… reports a shot”. The dispatcher’s ID is snottke (S Nottke?) It could be “Nottke” rather than “shot”, but that is forcing something to fit.
@jimrtex:
Thanks Jim. I appreciate your input.
@Tom
From my seat I have never contested GZ’s handling of this. As a CHL holder the whole rationale is that lethal force is only an option when all others are exhausted, SYG, Castle Doctrine not withstanding. I have held that GZ was attacked because that was SPD’s initial report and it is the one thing I can attribute to GZ being surprised. His reaction, as far as we have been able to see, was that of a person who was in no way prepared to meet force with force. Your proficiency should be a skill that you never want to find yourself in need of. GZ failed in that respect and you are truly right in that he will replay everything that happened up to the instant he pulled the trigger. Tom what I cannot understand is a culture that puts its perception of injustice ahead of the lives of their young men. In the time we have spent wrestling with each other over one young man’s death,
black youth are dying in Chicago,Miami,Phila. Another generation will be deprived of their young
men. The Media overstepped and was caught doing so. With the ease and speed that social media runs I can’t believe that the MSM thought they would escape scrutiny. I think that they and Obama’s handlers thought they had hit the trifecta here and would be able to beat the hell out of the Right up til Nov.Hopefully reprisal crimes will fade soon. These are truly strange times. We have a president who feels he is above judicial review, an attorney general being sent a homework assignment by the 5th circuit and various and sundry unelected czars trying to push an agenda that may sink what passes for our economy. Tom I appreciated your arguments and their structure. I am better educated from them. Have a happy Easter
@Brian:
There are a few things in your most recent post that I’d like to discuss with you if I may:
A person walking down the street, minding his or her own business, not engaged in anything illegal has every right to be left the hell alone. That right supersedes the interest of the neighborhood busybody who wishes to deem them “suspicious” based on nothing concrete whatsoever.
Yes, we do. It’s right there on the 911 tape in Zimmerman’s own words. He stately plainly that Martin was walking down the street doing nothing more or less than “looking about” and “looking at all the houses”.
Those were his words.
Had Zimmerman seen anything more than that he would have shared the specific information with the dispatcher.
So, if Zimmerman had something more to share about what was “suspicious” where is it? Why didn’t he share his thought process?
From the street? Really? That theory is laughable on it’s face, first because the patio doors don’t face the street.
Secondly, it was dark.
Are you saying that Martin’s eyesight was good enough to look for unlocked windows in the dark? From the street?
Notice though that Zimmerman didn’t say anything about him wandering ’round in people’s yards which is what he would have had to do to find unlocked windows or patio doors. He didn’t say that the kid was trespassing and, being the thorough, zealous type of guy he is, Zimmerman would have mentioned that if there had been more detail to give.
He simply said he was “looking about”. Really “suspicious”, eh? Could be that Trayvon was simply trying to keep himself aware of his surroundings as he walked along in the dark because you never know when someone might be lurking there in the dark watching you…or following you.
And, of course, we know for sure that someone was indeed watching and following.
While there is, indeed, no “force of law” behind the dispatchers admonition there is most certainly a cautionary characteristic to it. But, of course, Zimmerman had already thrown caution to the wind when he left his vehicle.
I suppose Zimmerman never heard of the “What’s the worst that could happen to me?” approach to situations in life.
Did Zimmerman have any idea whether Martin was armed? He noted to the dispatcher that Martin had his hand in his waistband. Was there perhaps a weapon hidden in there George?
Did Zimmerman know if this person, whom he judged to be “on drugs or something” from a distance might shoot him to death or jump on him? If so, he must have been as clairvoyant as some of the posters on this site pontificating about Martin’s parents.
Yep, that theory has been bandied about over and over. It falls apart though when you look at the timeline and arrive at the conclusion that Zimmerman traveled 33 seconds away from his vehicle yet couldn’t seem to make his way back to that vehicle in the two minute window that he had after the 911 call ended.
Well, not quite.
We know from Martin’s girlfriend that she heard Trayvon ask “Why are you following me” and a voice replied from a distance “What are you doing around here?” Followed by the sounds of a scuffle as the line went dead.
Now, if Mr. Neighborhood Watch had handled it correctly he would have replied to Martin’s question by saying that he was Neighborhood Watch and then asking non-challenging questions. Very likely that would have defused the situation. Instead, he challenged Martin. Not smart.
Where is there any evidence whatsoever that Martin turned back? Seriously, where is it? That’s right. There is none. That’s been a presumptuous assumption from the beginning. It’s not, of course, supported by any sort of evidence or logic. A kid, 17, on the phone with his girlfriend tells her he’s being followed. She encourages him to run. He moves away from what he perceives as a threat. Then, suddenly, he decides to turn back? Defies logic.
There’s actually another completely plausible theory. More plausible actually.
A theory that I keep waiting for someone else to come to. The photographs are available. The 911 tape is right there to be analyzed. Yet, no one has divorced themselves of the theories they’re so bitterly clinging to in order to open their minds to other possibilities.
Well, therein lies the rub doesn’t it? We’ve actually heard several accounts on how the whole thing started.
First, we’ve got the “attacked from behind” version. Okay.
Second, we’ve got the “punched in the nose” version. Okay.
Problem is, those two don’t go together. It’s not possible for them to mesh together.
Then, we’ve got version three which is what the girlfriend had to say about what she heard. Once you consider her account, well, the “attacked from behind” theory falls apart. She said, after all, that words were exchanged and you don’t generally have a conversation with another person while your back is turned to them.
Finally, you talked earlier about the “on an errand” theory. The only problem is that doesn’t fit with Zimmerman’s presence in that particular section of the neighborhood. If he left his home to go to Target, as the story goes, the logical route would have him leaving through the main gate (by the clubhouse). His logical return from Target would bring him right back through the same gate. There is no logical reason for him to be in that section of Twin Trees. It’s not on his logical path to or from Target.
Of course, there’s no evidence that I know of to support this “on an errand” story. Is there a purchase receipt? Perhaps someone can share that on the off chance that I missed it. We can easily dismiss the “Skittles and tea” theory based on a lack of evidentiary support as well (unless you’re going to accept the word of the attorneys).
Even after discarding that though you’re still left with the simple fact that Martin was walking down the street doing nothing more or less than “looking around”. We have that information direct from Zimmerman himself.
So, if he’s not really out “on an errand” then logic would say that he’s on Neighborhood Watch patrol which would explain why he’s on that section of Twin Trees.
And, if he’s on patrol, he’s armed. That’s violation one. Then, he left the vehicle and pursued. That’s violation two.
Now that we’ve established that Zimmerman was non-conformist kind of guy who liked to patrol to the beat of his own drummer we’re suddenly expected to believe that he “stood down” when advised to by the dispatcher?
Sorry, that defies logic and doesn’t come anywhere close to adding up to what we know of the evidence and his behavioral patterns.
Sadly, the whole thing just seems to have been bungled from the get go. Zimmerman’s initial interview was conducted by a narcotics officer rather than a homicide detective. From there the SPD and the SA seem to have just bumbled and stumbled along. All along the way, they had this steaming cauldron coming to a rapid boil all around them they appear to have done very little to tamp it down.
And, as much as it pains me to type this, I have to: “What if Al and Jesse are right?” As the old saying goes, even a stopped watch is right twice a day.
Not at all condoning their antics and the ginned up outrage and hatred they’ve created. Not at all. I despise them both and the things that they routinely do. Don’t get me wrong on that.
But, what if they’re right about this one?
AYE
I THINK YOU MUST KNOW THAT THE ATTACK DID NOT START FROM BEHIND,
I had mentioned it myself and after following a bit more, I retracted it,
what is possibly hapenned is ST ARRIVE FROM BEHIND HE PREVIOUSLY TOLD HIS GIRL FRIEND NO FOR RUNNING, HE WENT AROUND ZIM LOST SIGHT, ST IS COMING FROM ANOTHER WAY AND APPEAR BEHIND, ZIM IS WALKING
TOWARD HIS CAR, AND HE MUST HAVE HEARD A NOISE,
BECAUSE HE TURN TO HAVE TM CLOSE TO HIM, WORDS ARE
EXCHANGE, ONE PART
ZIMM ANSWER NO, ST YOU HAVE NOW, THEN THE PUNCH ON THE NOSE THE FALL , THE ST JUMPING DOWN OVER BASHING HIS HEAD REPEATEDLY, THEN NOTICE THE GUN, HE GET EXITED SAY, I AM GOING TO KILL YOU, the struggle for the gun where some powder get on TN,
ZIMM CALL FOR HELP, AND THE LAST PART OF ZIMM DESPERATE TAKE OF THE GUN AND POSITIONING OF HIS FINGER TO SHOOT, HE IS HS BEEN ASSURE OF TN INTENT
HOW IS THAT
NOW, NOTHING ZIMM DID DESERVED FOR TRAYVON TO SAY I WILL KILL YOU AND MEANT BY HIS ACTIONS
THE SUSPICION WAS LEGITIMATE BY THE BIG NUMBER OF CRIMES IN THAT COMMUNITY, WHICH I THINK BROUGHT ZIMM IN THAT PLACE TO BEGIN WITH, TO CHECK
@c. lindy:
Please give us a link. Thanks
@Aye:
We all come to media events such as this with our own personal baggage. My baggage includes comparable instances of confrontation. The first I will tell here happened some years ago when a young off-duty cop sped his muscle car down my neighborhood street. He drove at a dangerous speed barely missing my next-door neighbor’s 17 year old special-needs son. The young cop of all things came around by moments later for a second pass. He was confronted by the boy’s muscular blue collar father, standing in the middle of the street. My neighbor stood his ground in the street and sternly warned the young cop never to try a stunt like that again. The young off-duty cop braked his car with effort and departed embarrassed before his neighbors. You see the cop lived with his parents a half an block away on the same street. The young cop and his parents had a rough reputation. The young cop’s police force had a rough reputation too. Not ten minutes later the young cop’s father walked a half a block down the center of our street. He calls out my neighbor, abusively bating him seemly into a fight. A half a block away I presumed was the young cop with his service revolver. Knowing something of the personalities involved I could not expect that it was going to turn out well for my neighbor. I intervened. I did so unarmed. I just listened and talked, listened listened listened and talked to each man as person. All the while I was aware that I might well end up in an emergency room. After what seemed like forever the situation was defused and I was grateful that the cop’s father and I parted on OK terms. My neighbor was satisfied he got his point across. I don’t imagine there would have been a positive outcome if I came to the confrontation armed.
The second instance occurred not two years ago in a subway station. I was armored in naught but a dark blue business suit. I encountered a slick underclass thug verbally bullying a young attractive female passenger for what he said was subway fare. I read his body language and tone. Her’s too. I chose to distracted him for just a moment and she quickly got away. I went about my business and ignored the thug and then found that the same slick underclass thug had trapped a second attractive young woman with the same modus operendi. The young woman was visibly becoming frightened and seemed on the verge of tears. The thug escalated the verb pressure. I intervened again. Before the second woman escaped and before I could attract the attention of the station master (who called the transit police) it got tense. I was unarmed. Was the slick underclass thug armed? He was clearly hungry for prey. However he became confused by my behavior because I did not look him in the eye nor did I physically posture myself to confront him or to engage him. I was able to tactfully retreat following the second woman toward the station master. The thug then departed quickly at the prospect arriving transit police. I have a perhaps vain hope that the thug did not find suitable substitute prey that day.
If I were armed in either situation I expect that it is more likely than not someone would have gotten hurt. On the other hand on such a day as my luck runs out when the other fellow throws the first punch, or pulls a knife …
.
And George Zimmerman? I’d wonder whether his legal concealed weapon gave Mr. Zimmerman just enough of sense of security that he was willing to venture beyond his vehicle into that dark cold rainy night. I don’t expect that the National Sheriffs’ Association would consider Mr. Zimmerman’s actions prudent. However, few focus on Mr. Zimmerman’s reasonable rejoinder to young Mr. Martin. If I were George Zimmerman however (and I had my wits) I would have responded to Trayvon Martin with a hello, introduced myself in a neighborly manner, ask the young Mr. Martin if he’s seen something suspicious and ask for his help. Trayvon might well have thrown the first punch anyway but maybe, just maybe, posturing in a nonconfrontation manner I just might have thrown young Trayvon far enough off his adrenaline script to defuse the situation. Then I’d try to get Trayvon to volunteer his identity and the location of the family residence. In the end I’m sure that Mr. Zimmerman would have preferred to have had a private word with Tracy Martin about his son.
Regarding Martin’s “suspicious behavior” and alleged suggestion that he was “casing the neighborhood:”
http://articles.boston.com/2012-04-07/opinion/31299204_1_sidewalk-lanes-private-property
etc.
@ Aye
I guess I don’t understand why someone who not a resident of complex is immune from a resident’s inquiry as to whom and where he is domiciled. I don’t believe that is an imposition if done civilly. If it is then are people who are asked to prove residency before using amenities reserved for HOA members being denied some right of immunity? You want to use GZ’s description of “walking around and looking at all the houses” to prove TM was not acting suspicious that seems incongruous with the observation that it was dark , just go and assign everybody to places that fit your desired result. As to GZ being a busy body, do you live there? You are assigning that title on GZ on what basis? Is it the same basis that you use to assign “patrol” status to GZ when or where you wish. If you can disprove GZ “errands’ narrative what makes it any more or less probative than the Tea and Skittles used to anchor the narrative of going to 7-11.What I brought up with Tom was that he nor I had eyes on TM or GZ.You can infer whatever you wish. If you can see back to 2/26 and tell me just how TM was behaving I will stand corrected for trying to show that none of us know with any real certainty what the exact behavior of both men was. Time and distance give you a general idea,but how can you assign with enough certainty any but a general Idea of where either man was until a third party had them in sight? You want to argue that TM was not the aggressor go right ahead. Explain a broken nose and head lacerations are they self -inflicted? You want to twist GZ ‘s being attacked from the left rear but what precludes him from turning to face TM. That is what SPD’s report has said from the beginning, irrespective of the falsehoods thrown about the media. GZ ended up laid out in front of TM from the first punch. Witnesses put TM on GZ at that point. Twist that if you wish. The forensics when revealed will be corroborative . Assign all the actions, positions, patrol status, guidelines, properties of physics and proper etiquette, rewrite Florida’s CHL statutes do what ever you wish to salve your need. The grand jury that hears this case is going to deal you a disappointment if you truly believe that what you knit together is in any
way as complete as the physical evidence going to that panel. I imagine I have provided you the entertainment you desired. I haven’t found your pedantics nearly so. As I told Tom you can sharpshoot me all you want, this case will turn on the forensics, that is more or less what I have based my views on. Happy Easter!
The point was that TM could have been strolling along or he may have been involved in other activity. Can you prove what his step by step path was? I can’t. The bulk of the posts on this have narrowed time and distance down to a reasonable idea of where they could have been up to the point they ended up on the ground and where the witness visual comes in.
@Aye: @Aye:
The units facing north towards Retreat View Circle east of the clubhouse have their backs facing toward Twin Trees.
Why should Zimmerman have returned to his truck in 1-1/2 minutes after the call was over, when he didn’t return to his truck during the 1-1/2 minutes that the call continued?
Zimmerman reported Martin running about 3-1/2 minutes before the altercation. Martin had a head start, longer legs, and less weight. Zimmerman stopped running, after about 1/2 minute. Either Martin hid, or he came back.
He could have stopped to check his mail. He could easily have seen someone around the clubhouse or on the part of Twin Trees that goes south. Hmm, that looks kind of suspicious. I’ll just turn here and park. Maybe it’s nothing. He parks. The guy is just wandering around kind of staring. Maybe I should call the police. He calls the police.
It is also about the same distance either way. If you are in your garage facing west, is it easier to go north (either backing clear across the street and then turning north, or backing part way, going north in the southbound part of the street before swinging over onto the correct side of the street) or to go south (backing into the south bound part of the street before going forward).
@Brian: Maybe we ought to remember that this was private property- not public- and that trespassing was a real consideration.
Martin had lots of time to get to Green’s home and chose not to do that.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
Yep, patent nonsense from the Boston Globe.
A reasonable person would expect young Mr. Martin to then do what we all do in suburban and rural areas without sidewalks, walk along the shoulder of the roadway. Heck, in one working class neighborhood I lived in underclass teenagers made it a practice of disruptively walking in groups in the center of residential streets even when there were sidewalks on both sides of the street!
Mike O’ Malley
hi,
OBAMA AND HIS CLASS WARFARE repeated speechs,
did not try to tackle the problems of the youths crimes and hate for the whites,
on the contrary he intensified it to what we see happening now,
GOD KNOWS HE HAD THE POSITION TO INFLUENCE THE YOUNG TOWARD DISCIPLINE AND CHANGE OF BEHAVIORS, AND INSTEAD HE SHOW SUPPORT INSTEAD OF CHANGE OF ATTITUDE BY BEING A BULLY HIMSELF WITH THE CITIZENS OF THIS AMERICA, HUMILIATING THEM WITH HIS MULTIPLE AGENCIES BULLYING THE FARMERS, AND SMALLER COMPANIES TRYING TO MAKE A LIVING BY USING THE BOUNTYS WHICH THIS NATION POSESS, OBAMA HAD ALL THE TIME TO INFLUENCE THE YOUNG AND FAILED
INSTEAD YOU SEE THEM ON THE STREET AS OCCUPIERS OF PUBLIC LANDS PROTESTING ANY THING, WANTING THE MONEY FROM THE RICH PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR IT AND DESERVE WHAT EACH OF THEM HAVE, AND ARE FREE TO GIVE WHAT THEY CHOOSE TO BE FAIR, THE PROTESTORS ARE GROWING IN SIZE ANGRY FOR ANYTHING , EXCEPT OBAMA FAILURE OF HIS LAST YEARS IN POWER.
and when attacks against color, that is too far gone, and of need of radical change of the head of the beast,
@Brian:
You seem to have spent quite a bit of time in your response altering the points that I made and then arguing against the results. We’re going to get nowhere fast if that is going to be your approach.
The Retreat at Twin Lakes is a rather large neighborhood. The neighborhood has a somewhat transient nature because many of the properties are rentals. It would be tremendously difficult, if not absolutely impossible, for a person to know and recognize every resident there. Add in their relatives and invited guests and the game becomes exponentially harder.
So, under your thought process, Zimmerman would be perfectly within his rights to challenge every person unrecognized person with (“What are you doing around here?”) That’s absurd. It’s not civil either.
Furthermore, if the presence of unauthorized individuals was really a genuine concern then why do they have unfenced pedestrian access areas in the perimeter of the neighborhood?
And so the twisting begins. Zimmerman gave us the “looking about” information and nothing more. The fact that you’re now saying that being dark outside somehow makes walking down the street “suspicious” is a specious argument at best.
Pardner, have you read any background information at all regarding this whole mess? If so, you would have rapidly come to the conclusion that Zimmerman liked to have his nose in people’s business. His actions, both within the neighborhood, as well as his prior actions all point in that direction. You do know that he has a prior history of aggressive behavior as well as chasing people right?
And there you go with the twisting again. If you had bothered to read what I wrote you would have seen that I weighed the “on an errand” story against the evidence and came to the logical conclusion that he was on patrol because the evidence as we know it doesn’t support the errand story. His presence on Twin Trees doesn’t support the idea of being “on an errand”.
And, if you had bothered to read what I wrote, you’d have noticed that I discarded the Skittles idea based on a lack of evidence as well.
It’s really irrelevant as to why Martin was walking down the street because we know, without any doubt at all, that Martin was indeed walking down the street.
Well, through the miracle of electronics we have a good accounting of what Martin was doing that night. He was walking down the street “looking about”. That’s it. That’s what Zimmerman gave us. If there had been more to share he would have offered it up. He was even queried for more information by the dispatcher (OK, he’s just walking around the area?) and still he didn’t produce it.
So, in your mind a supposedly broken nose and some head lacerations adds up to Martin being the aggressor? Ever heard of fighting back? Nah, you’re not interested in logical conclusions based on what we know. You’re just interested in making it fit the conclusion you want to reach.
And, again, you attempt to twist what I said then conveniently discard the pieces that don’t fit your narrative. Where do you get the luxury of discarding the inculpatory evidence? Strange that you wish to discard things that you claim come from the “media” ie the Skittles and the girlfriend’s account of what she heard, yet you unquestioningly lap up the “broken nose”, the “attacked from the left rear”, and the “laid out from the first punch” memes.
Really strange indeed.
How can you be “attacked from the rear”, “punched in the nose”, and “exchange words”?
Something there doesn’t fit.
Witnesses put Zimmerman on top of Martin as well. The simple fact is that Zimmerman held the upper hand at one point and then Martin was, apparently, able to gain the upper hand. Of course, that’s inconvenient for you. As we both know physical altercations are not static things. They don’t take shape in a certain way and then stay there. They’re in constant motion.
If Martin was involved in other activity then what was it? Where’s the evidence? What additional information did Zimmerman give us? That’s right. Nothing.
The bulk of the posts on this have attempted to narrow time, distance, and evidence into a shape that fits the preconceived theory that is being proffered.
An objective, impartial look at alternative theories hasn’t happened here yet.
My whole point from the beginning was that this case was bungled. You’ve got a dead teenager and the person who shot him has been released. You’ve got at least two officers who wanted him charged but the SA didn’t concur, not because they thought they thought he was innocent, but because they thought a jury wouldn’t convict. Then, you’ve got the application of the SYG law as a reasoning for Zimmerman to not be charged when it clearly doesn’t apply.
Happy Easter to you as well.
@Mike O’Malley:
Hey! Stop with the common-sense stuff, O.K? We need more emoting and repetition of unsubstantiated and/or discredited “facts.” Btw, just where are those Skittles?
For those who need additional “data-points” in graphic form, the photos on this site can help to fill in some empty spaces: http://marinadedave.com/journal/2012/3/22/the-tragedy-of-trayvon-martin.html
WARNING: Although the blogger, Marinade Dave, is a free-lance journalist, a reading of his blog might lead one to believe that he is a recently unemployed NBC News producer.
@Brian:
Is it a fact that we could only know about the teas and skittles pretext from Trayvon Martin’s brother? Trayvon Martin did not inform his dad about the purpose for his wandering miles long journey at dusk to dark in the cold rain without an umbrella in a neighborhood from which he would be gone in week or so. Trayvon Martin did not inform his mother about the purpose for his wandering miles long journey at dusk to dark in the cold rain without an umbrella. According to this pretext Trayvon Martin left his dad’s girl friend’s house to purchase skittles for his brother. The police report from the shooting scene makes no mention of skittles. Trayvon Martin did not have in his possession a sales receipt.
Is there more to this story?
Were there any witnesses in the 7/11 to Trayvon Martin’s purchase of teas ans skittles?
One would expect that the 7/11’s security cameras to have recorded Trayvon Martin’ s presence in the store and also his purchase of tea and skittles. Does such evidence exist?
One would expect that the 7/11’s computerized POS(1) sales register and inventory control system to have recorded a sales of tea and skittles at the time of Trayvon Martin’ s purchase. The POS records will be time stamped. Does such evidence exist?
The absence of such hard evidence suggests that the tea and skittle pretext was naught but a cyclical ploy on someone’s part.
BTW: how old was Trayvon’s brother for whom he is purported to have ventured forth to purchase skittles? Is this this the same brother who we have found celebrating Trayvon’s violent assault on a bus driver?
.
.
(1) POS = Point Of Sale
The Strategic MC
hi,
this marinated guy is doing exactly what I’m doing here, that is showing his dislike of ZIMMERMAN
before the first sentence of his FAIR[SIC] STORY, MAKING HIM NOT CREDIBLE ON ALL HIS
explanation of the event
bye
by the way did we get the fact about drug in the body at the time of his death wish over ZIMMERMAN FOR HAVING ASK HIM A QUESTION?
@drjohn:
Please give us a link. Thanks.
@Aye:
Which witness? This one? http://www.examiner.com/crime-in-national/video-trayvon-martin-shooting-witness-says-police-disinterested-what-she-saw.
Her account is predicated upon “the “larger man” being on top. Larger by bulk or height? It doesn’t say, and she doesn’t identify Zimmerman.
Mary Cutcher and Selma Mora ? They only attest to visually witnessing the aftermath: “Zimmerman is standing over Trayvon’s body… He’s straddling him. He has his hands pressed on Trayvon’s back…’”
I think that we need better witnesses.
@Mike O’Malley:
I’m pretty sure that the source for the Tea and Skittles meme is Ben Crump, the Martin family attorney.
@The Strategic MC:
Zimmerman and Martin weighed approximately the same and one of the later posts I’ve seen gave Martin a slight weight advantage.
Martin however was substantially taller than Zimmerman. I’m 6’2″ and I tower over any 5’7″ man.
@Mike O’Malley:
Uh-huh.
@The Strategic MC:
Did Crump make this up out of whole cloth? Or did he get it form Trayvon’s brother?
According to Crump’s pretext Trayvon Martin left his dad’s girl friend’s house to purchase skittles for his brother. The police report from the shooting scene makes no mention of skittles. Trayvon Martin did not have in his possession a sales receipt.
Without Crump’s pretext there is no known legitimate reason Trayvon Martin to be wandering on a miles long journey at dusk to dark in the cold rain without an umbrella in a neighborhood from which he would be gone in week or so. Mind you Trayvon Martin had a history of trespass and there is evidence of a history of pretty burglary.
Is there more to this story?
Were there any witnesses in the 7/11 to Trayvon Martin’s purchase of teas ans skittles?
One would expect that the 7/11′s security cameras to have recorded Trayvon Martin’ s presence in the store and also his purchase of tea and skittles. Does such evidence exist?
One would expect that the 7/11′s computerized POS(1) sales register and inventory control system to have recorded a sales of tea and skittles at the time of Trayvon Martin’ s purchase. The POS records will be time stamped. Does such evidence exist?
The absence of such hard evidence suggests that the tea and skittle pretext was naught but a cyclical ploy on someone’s part.
BTW: how old was Trayvon’s brother for whom he is purported to have ventured forth to purchase skittles? Is this this the same brother who we have found celebrating Trayvon’s violent assault on a bus driver?
@Mike O’Malley:
No, that’s not a fact.
Source please.
Source please.
The police report also doesn’t make mention of his cell phone or whatever money and other contents Martin may have had in his pockets. Does that mean the cell phone, money, and pocket contents don’t exist?
Source please.
That damned clairvoyant talent you’ve demonstrated in your most recent post is really impressive.
Don’t forget that unanswered Exit Question I posed to you. Of course, with your clairvoyant talents, you already knew I was gonna remind you of that didn’t you?
@Aye:
Is that so? OK from whom did Ben Crump learn of this?
.
Did I ever tell you about my Exit Question from Charles Johnson?
@Mike O’Malley:
Has anyone other than Ben Crump and/or Tracy Martin spoken about what Trayvon’s future step-brother might have said? What’s that cautionary phrase again, “Consider the source”?
@The Strategic MC:
Oh, future step brother? I recall he was presented by MSM as Trayvon’s brother.
I would still like to know. How old was Trayvon’s future stepbrother for whom he is purported to have ventured forth to purchase skittles? Is this this the same brother who we have found celebrating Trayvon’s violent assault on a bus driver?
Answers anyone?
These questions too:
Were there any witnesses in the 7/11 to Trayvon Martin’s purchase of teas ans skittles?
One would expect that the 7/11′s security cameras to have recorded Trayvon Martin’ s presence in the store and also his purchase of tea and skittles. Does such evidence exist?
One would expect that the 7/11′s computerized POS(1) sales register and inventory control system to have recorded a sales of tea and skittles at the time of Trayvon Martin’ s purchase. The POS records will be time stamped. Does such evidence exist?
@Mike O’Malley:
That’s strange. Your most recent post is completely non-responsive to the questions that I posed to you. It’s also completely non-responsive to my queries regarding source materials to support your claims.
That’s really odd. Surely you’re not here arguing things that have no basis in fact or evidence are you?
Surely not. Such behavior would, after all, be ungentlemanly.
And no, you haven’t talked to me about Chuckles Johnson. Nor do I give a furry flying rat’s azz about him or your experiences there. He’s as irrelevant here as he is anywhere else he finds himself.
What I do care about however is what you’ve posted here.
You’ve put yourself forward as being an authority on what happened, or didn’t happen, leading up to the events of Feb 26th in Sanford, FL. Yet, when challenged to support your contentions you duck, dodge, ignore, and wilt under the pressure.
This is twice I’ve asked for source materials to support your claims. From this point forward, I will interpret any lack of clarity or specificity, or a failure to respond at all to the questions, as evidence that you CANNOT successfully respond.
Oh, almost forgot to add, I am heading out to start the smoker to cook hams for Easter dinner so you’ll have plenty of time in my absence to do some good, high quality, in-depth research to support your claims.
There is only one person who knows the complete story about the teen’s death. And that person is George Zimmerman. That is not an unusual cirumstance in many homicides. Will investigators zero in on what GZ said in his recorded report to the Sanford Police Department? Absolutely. They will compare what GZ said in the ‘suspicious person’ call to police against (possible) evidence to the contrary. If it doesn’t jive with distances and time frames, etc., it points to GZ lying. And if forensics point to GZ lying in one or two incidences, investigators will consider them ‘red flags’ and wonder what else GZ might have lied about.
Because it is virtually impossible to get TM’s account of what happened, Forensics will play a huge part in verifying what actually transpired that night. As One Example: The jacket, shirt and jeans GZ wore that evening will be checked for microscopic blood traces and spatter patterns. Microscopic blood traces and spatter patterns will tell Forensic investigators the distance between the shooter and the victim. It would also tell if the shot came from a shooter lying on the ground, a shooter standing over the victim, or a shooter standing up. Forensics will also be able to verify if there was a pre scuffle on the ground before the victim was shot. Florida (sand patterns) will verify or discount it.
In the end, investigators will put everything together, the GZ call, the calls from neighbors and their times, the TM girlfriend’s cell phone conversation with him and the cell phone record… And of course, the police report. Investigators will interview the state attorney about the role he played in turning GZ loose. And they will also talk to the Judge who played a role in that decision. A clear picture should evolve from Scientific/Forensic investigations and those investigations are usually and painfully slow. That is a result of every question they find answers to, opens the door to 5 more questions that need answers. Forensics is like the Whack-a-Mole game played at many carnivals. The player whacks one mole and 5 more pop up!
@Aye:
Assertively dismissive. Source please? Or, is the genesis of the Tea and Skittles meme simply non-attributable? Urban legend?
Is the point this: There is no substantiated account of Trayvon informing an adult of his purpose or intentions upon leaving the Green townhome?
@Mike O’Malley:
The best info that I have seen is that the “younger brother” was actually Brandy Green’s son. Tracy Martin and Brandy Green, to the best of my information, are/were not married.
@Mike O’Malley:
Chad Green, 14 years old.
Could have been his older brother on the tweet regarding the bus driver.
c. lindy
hi,
it might also have a shocker surprise telling of the gun having been shot by both ZIMMERMAN AND TRAYVON’S HANDS MANIPULATING THE GUN WHILE IT SHOT ONE HALF CIRCLE BULLET SHELL TOWARD THE ONE ON TOP WHICH WAS TRAYVON,
THAT WOULD SUCK ALL THE SHARPONS HUNGER FOR REVENGES AND BLOOD SPILL.
we all did not touch that possibility, but possible
I feel bad for the poor moles
The Strategic MC, ON THE OTHER POST; THE EVOLUTION OF ZIIMMERMAN.
John Cooper has a link saying that ZIMMERMAN HAD PASS A TEST ON THE MACHINE IF HE LIED OR NOT,
HE PASS THE TEST AND WAS FOUND NOT LYING.
@Mike O’Malley:
In this day and age, odds are you appear on many video camera footage: Cameras in retail businesses and business parking lots, banks, entry and exit doors in workplaces, street cameras taping auto license numbers for running red lights and stop signs, etc. There are video cameras running on some private properties. Knowing that, both Trayvon and Zimmerman can be easily spotted on the Seven Eleven and Target videos including the date and time, if they were there at some time before the shooting episode. Receipts for purchases become unecessary in a case like this. GZ and TM could have easily discarded any receipts. If you were intersted in the Casey Anthony case, you saw Anthony videoed in a Target store, coming in and in the check out line. We could also see what she bought. And 7-11’s have always been notorius for their customer video surveillance. Somewhere on this blog, someone claimed there were two 7-11’s near the Twin Lakes Condos. Hopefully, surveillance videos from both stores will be checked if that is indeed, true.
@The Strategic MC:
Thanks
@The Strategic MC:
I don’t have specifics on Trayvon failing to inform his father or Ms. Green that he was going to the 7-11. Of course, any answer would be speculative. I have read that his father and Ms. Green were going out to dinner that evening. Could that have been around 4:00 to 5:30 pm?
Trayvon Martin did not inform his dad about the purpose for his wandering miles long journey at dusk to dark in the cold rain without an umbrella? I don’t think a timeline has been established indicating when Trayvon left the condo. And as far as wandering in a cold rain without an umbrella, was it raining when the teen left the condo? That could explain the absence of an umbrella. It could also be that teens have aversions to umbrellas, also snow boots because they’re not cool. Don’t ask me why, but teens have goofy quirks. Then there is always the possibility no umbrella was available when he left the condo. Most teens prefer to flip up their hood if caught in rain and they don’t necessarily quicken their pace. Again, that’s not cool neither.
@The Strategic MC:
Yes, moreover from what I’ve seen so far there is no evidence contradicting a proposition that the tea and skittle meme is no more than a convenient fabrication by plaintiff’s litigation counsel.
If such hard evidence existed and plaintiff’s counsel was aware of it should we not expect that it would have leaked to the press by now? Would one not expect the National Inquirer, the Boston Globe to some such shady rag to have slipped someone a few $ for access to that evidence if it existed? Perhaps the police investigation has such evidence and is keeping it under tight wraps.
@c. lindy:
Police: “Mr Zimmerman, what did you buy at the Target? Cash or Credit Card? Approximate time of purchase?” Police investigators then go to Target and attempt to verify Zimmerman’s version of events (presence and purchases).
Same thing with the tea and skittles. Investigators go to all area convenience stores and check sales records for these items and review security film for evidence of Martin’s visit.
Easy stuff, this.
@c. lindy:
One of the links that Aye provided lead to a People magazine article indicating that Trayvon left the Green household during particular break in a televised sporting event after his father had left for dinner. It also reported that Tracy Martin, Trayvon’s dad, was unaware of Trayvon’s departure from the Green residence until he the father had returned home from dinner.
People Magazine reported that Tracy Martin, the dad, said he called his son’s cell phone several times, received no answer and gave up pursuing the matter. Tracy Martin told People Magazine he then fell asleep without knowing where his son was or who he was with. According to the People magazine timeline on no occasion did Trayvon communicate to his father why he left the Green residence.
@c. lindy:
I have read that he left the condo during halftime of the NBA All-Star game. This time (0:00) should be easily established.
@The Strategic MC:
Yes during during halftime of the NBA All-Star game.
@The Strategic MC:
This can’t be possible, as the game started at 7:30 P.M. EST. The phone logs of the incident (Zimmerman calls 9-11) begin at what, approx 7:10-7:15 P.M.?
@The Strategic MC:
Wasn’t Zimmerman on his way to Target?
@jimrtex:
I have read “returning from,” but the “going to” does appear to predominate. Thanks.