Let’s look at the Martin/Zimmerman timeline.
First we have to audio clip that Mata provided for us.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9A-gp8mrdw[/youtube]
And the transcript is here
The official audio can be downloaded here.
To begin with, Zimmerman is in his vehicle (1) as he speaks with the dispatcher. At 0:56 of the clip
“That’s the clubhouse, do you know what the- he’s near the clubhouse right now?”
“Yeah, now he’s coming towards me.”
It does sound as though Martin (2) is walking in a direction away from the clubhouse, toward Zimmerman. Zimmerman says Martin is near the clubhouse, but Zimmerman does not say that he is near the clubhouse. The clubhouse is near the main entrance on Oregon St.
Zimmerman expressed concern that Martin might be carrying something as he approaches:
“He has his hands in his waistband. He is a black male. Something’s wrong with him. Yep. He’s coming to check me out. He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. Send officers over here.”
Zimmerman begins to give instructions as to his location when Martin begins to run and Zimmerman exclaims
“Shit, he’s running.”
At 2:10 of the audio recording, the vehicle door can be heard to open and at 2:14 it closes. By this time Martin has passed from near the clubhouse toward the area between the 13 and 28 buildings. Zimmerman begins to chase and you can hear the rustle of his clothing and his breathing at 2:19. The dispatcher ask if he is chasing Martin and Zimmerman acknowledges that he is. At 2:26 the dispatcher says:
“OK, we don’t need you to do that.”
Zimmerman says “OK” and the rustling ends at 2:42.
At 2:38 Zimmerman says “He ran” and apparently lost sight of Martin. Martin apparently escaped.
Zimmerman remains on the phone with the dispatcher until at least 4:12. During that time he describes his location and directs the dispatcher to the location of his parked car.
Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that’s my truck…[unintelligible]
Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?
Zimmerman: I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address.
That puts Zimmerman’s vehicle on Twin Trees Lane. According to one report, near the bend. Martin apparently fled in between the 28 and 12 buildings toward his father’s girlfriend’s place, located near the back entrance of Twin Lakes. It is the direction Zimmerman described.
Dispatcher: “He’s running? Which way is he running?”
Zimmerman: “Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.”
Zimmerman’s phone call was received at 7:11:12. At 2:42 on the audio, Zimmerman stopped running and lost sight of Martin. That puts it at 7:13:54 or so. Zimmerman continues to speak to the dispatcher until at least 4:12 of the audio, or 7:15:24. It’s reported that the phone call to Brandy Green ended at 7:16. The fight and shooting took place between then and when the police arrived at 7:17.
This is the point the gaps exist.
Zimmerman is reportedly parked on Twin Trees Lane. He says Martin is coming toward him, and then he says Martin runs. Zimmerman says that Martin runs “towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.”(3) That is SE of Zimmerman’s position and it is in the direction of the home of Martin’s girlfriend. (4) Zimmerman begins chase, but then stands down when it was requested he do so and he apparently loses sight of Martin. The question is, which way did Martin run? If he ran down Twin Trees avoiding Zimmerman (5), Zimmerman could keep him in sight for some time. That would put Martin some distance from where the altercation occurred- in between 1321 and 2821, as described in the police report. (6) Martin was initially placed near the clubhouse. If he reversed course, say to head up to Retreat Circle (7), then Zimmerman would not have described him running toward the back entrance on South Oregon. If Martin ran toward the area in between buildings 28 and 12 passing near Zimmerman’s car and then turning the corner, Zimmerman would lose sight of him quickly.
This is all of significance because there was less than a minute in between the time Zimmerman ended the call to the police and the beginning of the altercation as the phone call from Martin to Green is said to have ended at 7:16 and Zimmerman was speaking to the dispatcher until 7:15:24. That’s about 30 seconds for Martin and Zimmerman to come together.
Zimmerman had no idea to where Martin was headed. Zimmerman did not catch Martin while Zimmerman was on the phone and Martin had a head start even if he only “walked fast” he still could outpace Zimmerman. Yet somehow they could not have been farther apart than about 30 seconds closure.
Then we come to some other questions. If Zimmerman was “hunting down” Martin as some have opined, why did he not simply shoot Martin upon encountering him? Why would Zimmerman get so close to Martin that Martin could punch Zimmerman in the face and knock him down if his intention was to kill Martin? (BTW, ABC News has had an epiphany. It has decided that George Zimmerman had injuries after all) Would a person bent on murder allow himself to be assaulted and still expect that he could reach and fire his gun? If Zimmerman was brandishing a gun what could possess Martin to attack him? No reasonable person is going to charge someone aiming a gun at one. Zimmerman agreed to meet with the police as they arrived. Why would he agree to meet them and then chase after Martin to kill him? Why would someone bent on murder hold Martin at gunpoint while he screamed for 40 seconds? Because he wanted witnesses to the murder? Why didn’t Zimmerman run if murder was the goal?
None of this makes any sense.
Now let’s consider what probably happened. Back to the NY Times
Soon, callers to 911 were describing the presence of police officers, and the beams of flashlights gliding over a section of grass a few dozen yards from Trayvon’s destination, where a boy inside was waiting for Skittles.
A few dozen yards. A few is about 3. Three dozen yards. 36-40 yards. 120 feet. George Zimmerman loses sight of Trayvon Martin at 2:38 of the call, or about 7:13:50. Martin has until 7:16 to cover the “few dozen yards” to make it to the safety of Brandy Green’s residence. Zimmerman remains on the phone until 7:15:24. Martin’s girlfriend said the phone call went “dead” at 7:16, but Martin and Zimmerman were already exchanging words. According to Martin’s girlfriend, the conversation was initiated by Martin. The window between the end of Zimmerman’s call to the SPD and the meeting is brief. Really brief.
Martin had over two minutes to reach Green residence. Why didn’t he go there? This suggests strongly that Martin did not go to the Green residence, but instead hid somewhere, waiting for Zimmerman, and then confronted Zimmerman. Martin spoke first to Zimmerman, not the other way around. I think Martin approached Zimmerman’s car from the direction of the clubhouse, passed the car and then bolted. Martin then rounded the corner and hid. Zimmerman pursued until being asked to stop but lost Martin. As Zimmerman turned to head back to his car, Martin came out of hiding and confronted Zimmerman. The rest is history.
DrJohn has been a health care professional for more than 30 years. In addition to clinical practice he has done extensive research and has published widely with over 70 original articles and abstracts in the peer-reviewed literature. DrJohn is well known in his field and has lectured on every continent except for Antarctica. He has been married to the same wonderful lady for over 30 years and has three kids- two sons, both of whom are attorneys and one daughter on her way into the field of education.
DrJohn was brought up with the concept that one can do well if one is prepared to work hard but nothing in life is guaranteed.
Except for liberals being foolish.
@Tracy:
… a kid? … Trayvon was 17. My grandfather-in-law lied about his age, joined the US Army and shipped over to Europe on a troopship with the rank of Staff Sargent in the US Army at … age 14.
… a 2-mile or a 4-mile round trip seems pretty far for a 17 year old with a discipline problem (an apparent experienced burglar) to walk for candy and ice tea at dusk to dark, in the rain, without an umbrella, without parental permission, in an unfamiliar neighborhood of which he was a temporary resident for a few days …
@Mike O’Malley:
Because public opinion on this case has been heavily influenced by the disinformation campaign (pictures of 13 yo Trayvon, 140 lbs, skittles and iced tea, etc) waged by the Martin family attorneys and enabled by the media. Also remember that evidence that could exonerate G.Z. in the arena of public opinion (audio tape and police station video) has been altered by major news organizations.
Rightly or wrongly, the “underclass” have, in large measure, been successfully portrayed as victims who have little or no control over their situation.
@Mike O’Malley:
You sly dog, you. You may have tripped across the underlying reality in this case.
One might think that a 17 yo with an admittedly mild history of misbehavior would be kept upon a short leash. What if he was, and yet disobeyed parental instruction to not go anywhere?
The media campaign to dishonestly portray Trayvon as a boy scout now begins to make even more sense. Instead of a teen who disobeys instructions to “not go anywhere” and then engages in possible inappropriate behavior, we now have an innocent and compassionate young man who walks a few miles in the rain to get skittles for his little brother.
The attorneys for G.Z. now say that they have additional info that will help to exonerate their client. I wonder if it’s anything that helps to reveal the “real” T.M.?
@The Strategic MC:
Both accounts of how far was the closest 7-Eleven are wrong.
There was one much closer.
It was less than 1/2 mile from the entry to the complex.
But another fine point is brought up:
@Mike O’Malley:
hints at it:
The Strategic MC adds:
I have noted this before but it seems to have gotten lost over the days and weeks:
Trayvon’s dad NEVER phoned him OR the police until the next day!
By then police had Trayvon’s body in the morgue and it fit the description his dad gave of a son who never came home the night before.
What kind of dad knows his son isn’t home all night and doesn’t even try calling him?
A stoned out of his gourd kind of dad.
Maybe a drunk out of his gourd kind of dad.
But not a caring, concerned parent.
Trayvon’s cell phone showed NO CALL from his dad after he left the condo at or near halftime.
@Nan G:
Nan, do you have a link for that? The Times’ article says Tracy Martin did call.
@Nan G:
I do remember reading this and your posts on the subject.
What if the purpose of the dishonest media campaign is to undermine the commonly held perception of widespread dysfunctionality in AA homes? Black teen with a pattern of misconduct and a father who appears to be under-involved or marginally indifferent.
Any real interest in a case that has these elements?
The Strategic MC
new points came out very ligit too;
Nan G with the father failure to check,
RANDY and with the wittness telling GZ to shut up the help call and went to call 911
instead of helping by his presence,
Mike O’MaLLey, his doubt of the real purpose
of the 7/11 WALK,
BRIAN, the courage needed to help on the call for help,
great stuff from y’all
this one from me; where does the cousin fit in there? does he live on the road to 7/11?
does he have candys and tea bags? which TRAYTON NEEDED.
bye
@ilovebeeswarzone:
The circle of truth is rapidly narrowing.
Of all of the memes and narratives that were projected in the opening days of public interest in this case, only those from the Martin family lawyers/Media perspective have been discredited and discarded.
The facts and the law are now rapidly lining up on the side of Zimmerman and the attempt to stampede public opinion is beginning to lag.
Political intervention, as represented by the Florida AG and/or the DoJ, is the last card remaining in the “no justice, no peace” deck.
@Nan G:
Or a working class dad whose family has been exhausted by an out-of-control child.
Tracy Martin, Trayvon’s dad, told People Magazine that he called Trayvon several times that night. Did Tracy Martin lie to People Magazine? Tracy Martin never called Trayvon’s girl friend which seems odd if he were worried about his son’s where-abouts, particularly in light of the reason why Trayvon was staying at his dad’s girl friend’s house: suspension from school because of drug possession (in-substance). Tracy Martin, Trayvon’s dad, told People Magazine that he presumed his delinquent son was with his 20year old male cousin, a “responsible” fellow said dad. But he said he never called that cousin. Odd isn’t it, particularly given the reason why Trayvon was sent to stay with his father.
@Mike O’Malley:
Now when does the media begin to investigate this possibility?
@Mike O’Malley:
Probably. The game from the get-go has been to avoid any investigation into the character of T.M. and his family. Any admission of parental irresponsibility undermines the preferred narrative.
The Strategic MC
do we know if MARTIN HAD SOME DRUG IN HIS BODY AT THE TIME OF HIS DEATH?
I don’t recall reading it any where, they certainly have made checks by now, or did they?
bye
@The Strategic MC:
seems pretty clear that they didn’t need him to follow the subject, he declined such advice…can’t get much more cut and dried there…he chose to continue engaging — unless the argument is going to be that TM decided to chase Zimmerman down or otherwise “stalk” him in return so as to come upon him (Z) by surprise.
Anyway you want to cut it, either actively engaging or actively retreating, Zimmerman’s tactical failure is spectacular.
Mike O’Malley
like I read at FOX NEWS; you are fair, balance and unafraid
bye
@malize: Maybe you had to be there! Anyone can be right about what Manning needed to do Sunday while you are sitting at home in your easy chair on Monday morning. Have you ever been in combat or experienced a situation similar to this? If not, maybe you should wait until the facts are out. You nor anyone excepting the police investigators still have no clue what happend since all of the information has not been made public. Yet, you have made a judgement of Zimmerman’s actions. You are as bad as Sharpton and Jackson.
@DrJohn:
again…it is clearly on the tape…and again — regardless of which way you want events to play out in your imagination (because I’m assuming you weren’t there and haven’t ever worked security with an actual weapon or actually learned and been accountable in any real ROE situation) — Zimmerman’s tactical failures are almost a “what not to do”
RANDY
yes you have a good point, why do we work so hard to find ZIMMERMAN GUILTY,
and responsible of the death of a human and vice versa …
IT’S IN OUR NATURE to question our actions and actions from other, I guess,
just by the way these comments are coming back and forth,
we can surely now prove that the fairness is on higher quality here with CONSERVATIVES,
THAN WHAT WE HEAR FROM ELECTED DEMOCRATS INCITING THE PEOPLE TO LYNCHING, AND PROCECUTE THE SURVIVOR THE PROOF IS NOW SOLID FOR ALL TO SEE WHICH SIDE
IS SAFE TO FOLLOW AND BE PROTECTED AGAINST CRIMES
BYE
Malize
hi,
you have to remember, he is a citizen chosen by a group to represent the community as being the eyes and ears, for them all,
he was not a trained police officer, that’s why he was calling them, he did not act as a expert on crimes and
dangerous criminals and how far they can go to hide their intentions, and how their hate for the good guys can lead them, as a matter of fact, since we all in ” IF ” SPECULATION, I’m sure if ZIMMERMAN
WOULD HAVE BEEN BLACK, THEY WOULD HAVE EXCHANGE BROTHERLY WORDS,
NO MORE, NO ATTACK FROM TRAYVON, NO NEED TO SHOOT TO KILL FOR SAVING LIFE OF THE WHITE MAN. AND IT WAS NO POSSIBLE TO HAVE BEEN DONE AMONG THE TWO COLORS, BECAUSE TRAYVON TOLD HIM AS HE GOT CLOSE HE WANTED TO BEAT HIM, NOT TALK
BYE
I think Zimmerman’s phone call starts at 7:09:34. Check the event report. These aren’t simply logs of the call, but also include the disposition. Connection time is 7:09:34.
If you look at the REM and match these with the recording, the time of the REM only makes sense if the call started at 7:09:34. Remember that the dispatcher is not psychic.
Martin is identified as “late teens” at 1:14 in the recording. The dispatcher couldn’t have known that if the call started at 7:11:12. But if the call started at 7:09:34, then the dispatcher has enough for the first REM at 7:10:48. This is also at the time when Zimmerman indicates that Martin is coming towards him, and that he is playing with his wasteband. The dispatcher may have been typing to this point, and clicks on “create record at this time”. It is soon after that he dispatches police officer Ayala.
At 2:18 in the recording, Zimmerman explains that it is “back entrance” that Martin is headed towards. This would be 7:11:52 and is logged 7 seconds later at 7L11:59.
At 3:43 in the recording, Zimmerman agrees to meet at the mailboxes. This would 7:13:17, but it is logged at 7:13:12. But it is actually the dispatcher who suggested that meeting place.
Presumably, the dispatcher wants an address which can be typed in and will give a location on the map in the patrol car. He wanted the address of where Zimmerman’s truck was parked; and then the address of Zimmerman’s house. If you look at other reports, the address is the location of what is being reported, not the address of the caller. He finally gives up and suggests the mailboxes.
Officer Smith is dispatched here.
Then Zimmerman asks for the police officer to call him. At 4:02 in the recording, the dispatcher says that he will have the officer call him. This would be 7:13:36, and it is logged at 7:13:41.
The call ends at 4:11, or 7:13:45. It might have ended a bit before, there are a few seconds of dead air.
Officer Smith arrives at 7:17:11. It is about a minute into phone calls after the shooting, that flashlights are reported. He probably would have been sent to the front of the houses (the phone calls are apparently from both sides of the backyard; in one call after the street name is zapped; the caller responds that is one street over. So he might be in the back around 7:17:30. So that probably puts the shooting at about 7:16:15 (one person who called to report gunshot, saw flashlights at 1:04 in his call).
The caller would have had to hear the shot, call 911, and then while talking on the phone perceive a flashlight. The longer it took him to perceive the flashlights, the later the shooting. The longer it took him to reach his phone, the earlier the shooting.
In the call with screams before the gunshot, the shot is at 0:45. There is another call where arguing is reported before the screaming. The caller with the screaming, might have hear the arguing and called 911, or might have only reacted to the screaming.
So the altercation started around 7:15:15, or about 1:30 after the end of Zimmerman’s call. It is also 3-1/2 minutes after Zimmerman reported Martin running.
Zimmerman never said that Martin was near the clubhouse. This was a suggestion by the dispatcher, who only knew the clubhouse address. Zimmerman had told him that was the best that he could give him. Martin didn’t necessarily enter through the main gate. There aren’t walls on the west and south of the complex. So he might have come along Retreat View Circle and then turned right on Twin Trees. In that case, Zimmerman might have followed him in his truck.
Alternatively, Zimmerman saw him and turned down on Twin Trees. Zimmerman reports that Martin is staring at him, and then coming to check him out. If Martin were behind him, it would be difficult to observe through the back of his truck or with the rear view mirror in the dark and rain. So Martin is probably in front of him. Perhaps on the grassy area behind the north-facing houses.
Zimmerman tells the dispatcher that he is past the first curve – and is trying to explain that you don’t turn on Retreat View Circle. It is confusing because the first turn on Twin Trees is so close – there is only the one row of townhouses between the streets at that point. This is when Martin begins to run.
If he ran down Twin Trees, Zimmerman could have just driven around the corner in his truck. If he ran east, then Zimmerman could not follow in his truck.
Any of these routes would be perceived as being toward the back entrance.
After the dispatcher tells Zimmerman not to follow, Zimmerman acknowledges. He says that “He ran”, which indicates that Martin is not in sight. There is then the discussion about where the police officer will meet Zimmerman. Zimmerman says for the police officer to come in through the entrance, make a left on Twin Trees and that he would then see his truck. Zimmerman is saying something else when the dispatcher asks for address his truck is in front of. The sound experts could try to recover that.
Zimmerman’s truck might not have been in front of a residence. It is almost continuous driveways in front of units. He would be blocking a driveway. And he wasn’t at his truck. The dispatcher wanted his address so the officer could meet him at his house. The dispatcher suggests the mailboxes, which Zimmerman reluctantly agrees to. Zimmerman then realizes that would either require him to walk back to his truck and drive to the mailboxes, or walk past his truck to the mailboxes.
The dispatcher had agreed that the officer would call Zimmerman. There would be no reason to return to his truck. If he were at the end of the grassy area between the units, he might have gone around to the front to look for the street address.
Some people just don’t understand that when you precipitate an altercation, your claims to self defense are undermined. That doesn’t automatically mean rendered void, but that can be the result.
Hard Right
hi,
yes of course, but how could he do his job he was assign to,
without getting closer the be proven right on his cell phone,
bye
@Randy:
Yes, randy. I have those qualifications, so maybe you should just put a sock in your sanctimonious ranting.
Zimmerman failed, big time…any way you want the scenario to play out it will always rely on him making a bad call or making a fundamental mistake, *THAT* should be painfully obvious to anyone who has a clue. There is simply no way to spin the scenario where Zimmerman’s judgement and/or SA isn’t called into question.
As I said before this does not excuse what the media and the race baiters have been doing…and for the record I don’t think that Zimmerman should be in jail or charged with murder or manslaughter…but I have no doubt there is likely a valid and winnable wrongful death suit somewhere in this mess.
Sorry I can’t be as kneejerk protective of Zimmerman like yourself, but every bit of training and real life experience I have screams failure, failure, failure. You want to call it Monday morning quarterbacking, fine, that’s your right…but the truth is it is the difference between “professional” vs. “amateur”…un-trained and un-prepared Zimmermann was obviously out of his element in this situation…the outcome shouldn’t be much of big shock and surprise.
Again, I also said before that TM is party to this also…the whole damn thing is just a greek freaking tragedy to be honest, but it’s just that…two people who were ill-equipped to deal with the situation they had placed themselves in…it’s not a binary, zero-sum deal…they both have fault, but in the final analysis if you are the one who brought the gun to the party, you better be the one who is aware and have control of your subject.
If your subject is close enough to chat with, he’s close enough to be in CQB in seconds…if you are not trained to respond appropriately — if you have any hesistancy about what to do when the subject violates your control range — you’ve failed.
If your subject sneaks up on you and is within your control range before you know it…you’ve failed. He’s the damn subject for freaks sake…if you had some damn reason to identify him as your subject then even if your disengaging you don’t take eyes off him or where you last saw him, etc.
How many different scenarios do you want to toss out there? Because each and everyone of them will devolve to one of those two cases…both of which don’t reflect well for Z. All the good intentions in the world on his part and all the evil that the media, et al. have performed do not mitigate his basic responsibilities — the basic *ACCOUNTABILITY* — that he took on in his role and by carrying a weapon while performing it. See the difference here Randy is that I’m not trying to be a psychic pundit and pour over google earth images or parse police transcripts — I’m judging Zimmerman by the outcome of the incident, like an After Action Report or Lessons Learned.
jimrtex
you are very good in timing event like this one, where timing tell a lot for those like us trying to figure movements of nano seconds leading to the immobilisation of all so many of them along so may thoughts inside both persons in such short radical change of actions
bye
@Randy:
I think that we are rapidly approaching that point.
Sanford PD Lead Investigator, Chris Serino, who had initially recommended that Zimmerman be charged (he didn’t believe his story), is now saying something different:
“Serino said his investigation turned up no reliable evidence that cast doubt on Zimmerman’s account – that he had acted in self-defense.”
“The best evidence we have is the testimony of George Zimmerman, and he says the decedent was the primary aggressor in the whole event….Everything I have is adding up to what he says.”
Malize
you bring very good point on this,
okay
that tell me where the responsability is and should be direct to.
the experts on top of the project to help the community, why?
because they under estimate the crime violence issue ,after all those crimes happenned in a short time, in a small community,
what should have been appraise should have been the conclusion to alter their project they had thought miner, change ito a radical attack to crime by only the officer of the law, even if they had to spend more money, which they probably resist too agree on that count if told to.
real trained people on the streets as long as it take to clean up their town, and all with guaranty immunity to defend their lives over the criminal’s lives.
I.m sure many communities would invite such term to get rid of the plegue going in their back yards
front yards, inside their house and inside the greedy leaders of their community closing their eyes and allow such a big number of crimes growing on and when confronted by the angry citizens, they will choose the cheapest way to face the problem and if some goes wrong they are not being blamed but have made sure to shift the blame to one only citizen of courage who should be appreciate instead of be thrown shit on him even by elected ones from the FEDERAL.
HOW FAR SHIT CAN GO
@The Strategic MC:
Thanks for finding that statement by Sanford PD Lead Investigator, Chris Serino.
Do you happen to have a link to it?
@Nan G:
Try this: http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2012/04/testing-my-resolution.html
It then links to the principal source document which is a three day old article from the Orlando Sentinel (couldn’t get the direct link to open).
yes we all here have many clues on the event, WE ARE NOT TALKING THROUGH OUR HEAD. we just have among us collected so many clues and escalate our judgement according to each clues coming, and or retract previous analyst of have been
prove to the contrary and willingly retracted and began from the beginning, we have demonstrated here unity and trust on our group doing the same thing to advance what we got involve in
that was our quest for the TRUTH, WITHOUT ANY SIDE OF RACIST INTENT,
SO FAR WE ACHIEVED A SPECTACULAR DEMONSTRATION AND ABILITY TO RESOLVE ANYTHING COMING OUR WAY, NEEDING OUR lives experiences and BRAIN POWER AND UNIFYE
GOOD WILL TO REACH RESULT,
@ilovebeeswarzone:
Agreed.
I would like to think that most have argued in good faith, intent upon establishing ground truth.
@The Strategic MC:
Thanks.
It opened for me just fine.
The Strategic MC
YES,
AND IMAGINE A GROUP LIKE US IN THE WHITE HOUSE THINKING OF JOBS FOR ALL AMERICANS,
DICUSING WAR AND PEACE, MONEY TO SAVE AND SPEND WISELY FOR THE GOOD OF ALL,
FINDING WAYS OF UNIFYING AMERICA FROM THE CORE OF THE FRAMERS INTENT,
RETAURING FAITH AMONG THE YOUNGS IN SCHOOL, RETURNING THE FLAG, THE THE PRAYERS,
THE VALUES OF HAVING THE CHILDREN BORN TO BECOME THE BRAVES PASSIONATE LOVER OF AMERICA, AND SO MUCH MORE, WE US HERE AS A GROUP PROVED IT ‘S POSSIBLE
@Nan G:
No worries.
@malize:
The dispatcher asked whether Zimmerman was following Martin. Zimmerman said “yeah”. Dispatcher then told Zimmerman that they didn’t need him to follow Martin. Zimmerman said “OK”. The call lasted another 1-1/2 minutes.
Either Zimmerman had stopped; the dispatcher thought he had stopped; or the dispatcher thought he was following Martin, but didn’t care; or the dispatcher thought he was following Martin, and used a suggestive instruction (we don’t need you to follow), rather than an imperative (don’t follow – stop right now), because the dispatcher and Zimmerman were in cahoots.
The first is the most likely.
@c. lindy:
He wasn’t parked at the clubhouse. If he were, he wouldn’t have said “the best I can give you is the address of the clubhouse” (paraphrase). He didn’t call 911, he called another phone line. He did report a suspicious person. He reported what the suspicious person was doing, what he was wearing, and when requested by the dispatcher, the race and age of the suspicious person.
He was directed by the dispatcher to tell him what the suspicious person was doing. When the suspicious person started to run, he got out of his truck, perhaps to maintain sight, and then starting following. While we now know what happened wouldn’t have happened if he had stayed in his truck; there is no reason to conclude that Zimmerman would have known that when he got out of his truck.
@The Strategic MC: Wonder if there are powder burns on the kids clothing? Was he shot during the altercation? Didn’t see that info yet.
Malize
don’t pick on RANDY, BECAUSE YOU SEEM TO THINK THAT ZIMMERMAN,
SHOULD HAVE SHOOT TN BEFORE FALLING TO GET BEAT UP, YES MANY WOULD
HAVE SHOT HIM AS SOON AS HE WAS COMING, BUT THAT IS A PROOF NOT A FAILURE, HE PROVE HE WAS NOT OUT TO PLAY GUN SLINGNER, AND BECAUSE HE HAD MANY OCCASIONS GIVEN TO HIM TO SHOOT,
HE GOT BEAT UP AND HAD HIS NOSE BROKEN, AND STILL WAITED AND CALL FOR HELP,
IF THE SOMEONE WOULD HAVE SHOW UP,TO HELP, IT WOULD NOT HAVE ENDED IN A DEATH, BECAUSE ZIMMERMAN PROVE HE DID NOT HAVE THE INTENTION TO KILL,
NO FAILURE JUST A GOOD MAN GIVING AS MUCH CHANCES TO THE YOUNG ON HIM
WITH A RAGE MIND TO KILL,
@Randy:
One thing we know is that the police have access to that information.
The autopsy might never be public but the results are the basis on which police declined to move forward with an arrest of Zimmerman.
Preliminary results of an autopsy had to have been available to police after all this time.
It has been WEEKS!
RANDY
YES THEY FOUND TRACES OF POWDER ON TRAYVON, I READ IT,
and I thought it could have been from the bullet,
was I wrong?
Malize
another thing I think of maybe you would understand as oppose the other and they are told by the MEDIA THAT HE WAS A CRIMINAL AND SHOULD HAVE THE DEATH PENALTY, YOU WOULD UNDERSTAND THAT THE SOLDIER BANES DID THE RIGHT THING ON THE STAGE OF WAR, WITHIN A ESCALATED SITUATION TO SHOOT THOSE PEOPLE WHICH HAVE GIVEN A PROBABLE SIGN OF BEING A THREAT FOR HIM ALONE THERE REFUSING TO WAIT FOR THE ATTACKER IN THAT GROUP NO MATTER THE AGES OR GENDER TO HAVE HIM KILLED, THEREFOR BEING INNOCENT OF WHAT THEY ACCUSE HIM, IN THIS AMERICA, HIS OWN LAND WHICH HAS SEND HIM TO KILL ENEMIES WHO WOULD NOT HESITATE TO KILL CITIZENS HERE REGARDLESS OF AGE AND GENDERS AS THEY HAD PROVEN TO DO BEFORE.
YES YOU WOULD UNDERSTAND LIKE I DO,
@Nan G:
I heard a Crimminologist yesterday who is well respected and pretty up on this case say, he expects the autopsy and investigations to show that Martin was shot at very close range.
Mercy… the more some talk, the further away from facts and deeper into speculation as truth ya get.
This detail about the call starting at 7:09, and your statement that the call ended just before 7:14pm doesn’t weigh in Zimmerman’s favor, considering the meme of he was “standing down when told to”, does it? And isn’t that supposedly one of the center-points of Zimmerman’s defense? That he was retreating back to his car “as requested”?
Again, we deal ONLY with what we know. We know that Zimmerman left his parked car, and approximately where it was parked. There was 33 seconds of movement at a fast pace is about 5′ per second, which would be about 165 feet from the SUV.
If he hangs up at 7:13:45, and even assuming that your *guess* at the fight starting at 7:15:15 is correct, Zimmerman had one and a half minutes to retrace his 33 second trip back to his SUV, and stand down as told to do.
It’s even worse if you factor in the girlfriends call, documented at 7:12 (unknown seconds), and lasting at least four full minutes. That means that Zimmerman may have had at least two minutes to return to his car, instead of prowling around for Martin.
What is obvious? Zimmerman did not choose to return to his SUV when he had ample time to do so with plenty of time to spare.
Fact is, Zimmerman, himself, indicated he had no intention of returning to his car when requested. That is why he wouldn’t commit to meeting the police at his SUV at the end of his call, and instead requested they call him so he could tell them where he was.
That is not the actions of a man, ready to wait by his vehicle for police to arrive.
Review again my comment #23 with the possible map radius of Zimmerman’s likely position within 165 feet, assuming 33 seconds of movement at a fast pace from his vehicle (obviously closer in that circle if he had to dodge buildings, make turns, etc). Zimmerman could have avoided all confrontation had he simply returned to his car, as requested.
The dispatcher had said (1:27 into the call) “okay, just let me know if he does anything, ok?”, in response to Zimmerman saying he was coming to “check him out”, and that he had something “in his hands”. (like maybe a drink or a cell phone perhaps?). Never did the dispatcher suggest that Zimmerman get out of the car and follow him.
Now, if you want to play semantics, Zimmerman may have been “returning” to his truck…. one to two minutes after he hung up, that is. But you can not state that was standing down “when requested”. So anyone who wants to be honest in their analysis needs to lose that line of BS. And that activity could, and should, be taken into account during any investigation.
In the meantime, did Martin attempt to stay hidden while this guy was casing the ‘hood for his whereabouts all this time? I sure as heck know I wouldn’t be running home because I wouldn’t want some lunatic to know where I lived.
Apparently you need to listen to the 911 call again. For your convenience…
Your first error is saying the dispatcher “only knew the clubhouse address”. Zimmerman gave the dispatcher the address (wrong first, then corrected). The dispatcher did *not* know the address.
Your second error is that Zimmerman did, indeed, say that Martin was by the clubhouse. :56 into the 911 call on the YouTube
This is the problem with Jeremy’s linked map timeline. Apparently, that person did not listen to the 911 call either, because they start with both Zimmerman and Martin in the wrong places.
It also assumes, with no factual evidence whatsoever, that Zimmerman followed Martin in the car before parking, instead of conducting his 911 call while parked/stationary. An error duplicated by jimrtex above. How anyone decides to conclude that, with no evidence to support that notion, is beyond me. But then, there’s been a lot of off the beaten path assumptions made here. And everyone has been careful to never view the events from any side except that of Zimmerman.
Why is that, I wonder?
Instead, it’s more likely that Zimmerman were parked in the very spot he was when he exited the car to pursue Martin. No engine sounds. No key movement and engine cut. No tire sounds. Because he was already parked, this would be why Zimmerman gave instructions to the dispatcher at 1:46 into the 911 call for them to go “past the clubhouse” (i.e. on the Twin Tree Lane to the east of the clubhouse and pool) and “turn left” so they would get to where his car was parked on that jog of the road.
However were Zimmerman indeed slowly following Martin, it would increase Martin’s belief of a perceived threat considerably.
In addition, that original link/map by Jeremy had had the erroneous final conclusion that the altercation happened only seconds after Zimmerman hung up. As we can all see, that is also not supported by call logs and timed events. Zimmerman had a minute to a minute and a half to return to his SUV after hanging up. He chose not to, but instead had to spend more time trying to located Martin.
There is one SYG case that is the most similar… that of a 23 year old security guard (not neighborhood watch) who was tailing a car for erratic driving.
Notice that the security guard did not initiate the confrontation, never left his car, and in addition responded to a punch not by pulling his gun, but first using pepper spray. Thus the reason that legal investigations take into consideration what they would consider *excessive force* when repelling a threat.
Malize? I can’t disagree with one thing you said. It is a freaking Greek tragedy with bad decisions on all sides. And yes, the guy with the gun should have demonstrated more common sense than a teen. What it comes down to is just who felt the most threatened when the fight began… the armed guy who stalked another for five minutes, or the guy who was being stalked.
And oh, BTW, if any of you hypersensitive types wants to complain about the word “stalked”, and attempt to mount your high horse, I just suggest you check out how many times the call for the investigation to be reopened is described as an attempt to “lynch” INRE Zimmerman.
I’ve heard NO ONE suggest a lynching. I’ve only heard calls for an arrest and investigation oversight. And last I looked, LE didn’t lynch their perps.
Therefore use of such language does make one side indistinguishable from the Sharptons and Jacksons, and only keeps the unrelated racism charges a’fire. But then, perhaps that’s what some want on both sides of the situation.
@Randy:
@jimrtex:
1. About a quarter of the way through the tape, the dispatcher, obviously hearing that Z. was winded, asks Z if he is following the suspect. Z. answers, yes. The dispatcher says, “Ok, we don’t need you to do that.” Pay close attention there and you will hear Z continuing to be winded for a little bit after the dispatcher says that. We hear Z. continue to be winded (as if he has no intention of not following the teen.)
2. At some point, the dispatcher asks Z if the club-house address is 1111 or 111 and then asks Z if he is at that address. Z. says [yeah] pauses, then totally out of context he injects, “He’s coming toward me.”
3. As an aside, listen to the tape again and tell me the first sentence the dispatcher says. It sounds like Sanford Police Department… followed by a very short, choppy addition that I can’t make out. It sounds like it is something about shots.
To all: listen to the beginning of the tape and tell me what you hear.
Thanks, these are the supposedly little things in plain view, in this case, plain ear. But I have cheap speakers too, ha! It is usually the little and seemingly insignificant things in a case that blow a one-sided testimony out of the water.
Also of interest is this article:
Zimmerman’s Weapon Illegal Due to Domestic Violence Restraining Order
“The lack of arrest doesn’t make sense to me.” … Jeb Bush
Federal Law: 18 U.S.C. §922(g)(8):
It is unlawful for a person who has a Protection Order (Florida’s Final Judgment of Injunction for Protection Against Domestic Violence meets federal definition of “Protection Order”) in effect against him/her to possess a firearm and/or ammunition, ship or transport same in interstate commerce, receive any which have been so shipped or transported, or have seized firearms returned.
by Gordon Duff, Senior Editor
Florida Gov. Jeb Bush and “stealth” Republican presidential front-runner is a supporter of the “Stand Your Ground” law, but yesterday admitted that he did not know why an arrest was not made in the case and further, that the broad-spanning law did not seem to cover George Zimmerman.
Speaking at an education panel at a Texas university, Bush said:
“This law does not apply to this particular circumstance… Stand your ground means stand your ground. It doesn’t mean chase after somebody who’s turned their back.”
@c. lindy: It’s pretty obvious that Jeb has some researching to do.
@MataHarley:
Mata,
Zimmerman was connected to Sanford PD at 7:11:12. He apparently called 9111 but was redirected to SPD. That is the time the event begins, not 7:09.
Apparently not, drj.
You can view the log in full size here. According to that log, the call was terminated at 19:13:41. You may thank jimrtex for bringing our attention to the earlier times than reported.
@drjohn:
So, are you saying that Jeb Bush is incorrect and that the SYG law actually does apply in this case?
Aye, not only does Jeb has a handle on the intent of FL’s SYG law, but FL legislator, Rep. Dennis Baxley, wrote an op-ed saying that Zimmerman was not covered under the bill he wrote.
@drjohn:
Are you also saying Federal Law: 18 U.S.C. §922(g)(8): cannot usurp Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” gun law? Basically, that Federal Law says that persons who have restraining/protection orders against them are not legally qualified to own, carry a gun, or ammunition.
Do you know that Governor Jeb Bush signed the SYG bill into law in 2005?
Are you aware (according to a Miami FL newspaper research) that since the Stand Your Ground law was enacted in 2005, deaths have more than tripled (citing the SYG law as reason) over the 7 years?
@MataHarley: What makes you say the call ended at 19:13:41?
Oh my… this should be relatively obvious, fer heavens sake. Look at the call log, drj. See where it’s noted at 19:13:12 that Zimmerman will rendevous at the mailboxes? Zimmerman agrees to that at 3’42” in to the 911 YouTube video. How much longer is the YouTube unredacted call? 30 seconds, give or take a nanosecond.
Now, what’s 30 seconds later than that same noted comment on the call log? Do it slow with me… 19:13:12 plus 30 seconds equals??? Gosh darn… 19:13:42. Close enough to the 19:13:41 terminate for rock’n’roll.
Further, drj, 1056 in the Florida call codes is “meet at”. 1045 is “call by phone”. The last entry states “COMPL NOW REQ LEO 1045 BEFORE 1056”. Meaning complainant requests the law enforcement officer “call by phone” before “meeting at ?” That’s the last request by Zimmerman at 3’50” in the YouTube unredacted call. The ensuing chit chat to the “thanks” and “your welcome” is another 12 seconds.
So how about I give you another 12 seconds on the hang up, and it was really 19:13:54, or six seconds before 7:14pm. The fight wasn’t until circa 7:16pm via Martin’s four minute call with his gal pal, which the call logs say came in a 7:12pm (no seconds noted). Zimmerman had two minutes approx to retrace his 33 seconds away from his SUV. He didn’t.
@c. lindy: Are you assuming that this will be used for the defense? I am not. In addition, it does sound as though Bush suggests that Zimmerman attacked Martin.