Let’s look at the Martin/Zimmerman timeline.
First we have to audio clip that Mata provided for us.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9A-gp8mrdw[/youtube]
And the transcript is here
The official audio can be downloaded here.
To begin with, Zimmerman is in his vehicle (1) as he speaks with the dispatcher. At 0:56 of the clip
“That’s the clubhouse, do you know what the- he’s near the clubhouse right now?”
“Yeah, now he’s coming towards me.”
It does sound as though Martin (2) is walking in a direction away from the clubhouse, toward Zimmerman. Zimmerman says Martin is near the clubhouse, but Zimmerman does not say that he is near the clubhouse. The clubhouse is near the main entrance on Oregon St.
Zimmerman expressed concern that Martin might be carrying something as he approaches:
“He has his hands in his waistband. He is a black male. Something’s wrong with him. Yep. He’s coming to check me out. He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. Send officers over here.”
Zimmerman begins to give instructions as to his location when Martin begins to run and Zimmerman exclaims
“Shit, he’s running.”
At 2:10 of the audio recording, the vehicle door can be heard to open and at 2:14 it closes. By this time Martin has passed from near the clubhouse toward the area between the 13 and 28 buildings. Zimmerman begins to chase and you can hear the rustle of his clothing and his breathing at 2:19. The dispatcher ask if he is chasing Martin and Zimmerman acknowledges that he is. At 2:26 the dispatcher says:
“OK, we don’t need you to do that.”
Zimmerman says “OK” and the rustling ends at 2:42.
At 2:38 Zimmerman says “He ran” and apparently lost sight of Martin. Martin apparently escaped.
Zimmerman remains on the phone with the dispatcher until at least 4:12. During that time he describes his location and directs the dispatcher to the location of his parked car.
Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that’s my truck…[unintelligible]
Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?
Zimmerman: I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address.
That puts Zimmerman’s vehicle on Twin Trees Lane. According to one report, near the bend. Martin apparently fled in between the 28 and 12 buildings toward his father’s girlfriend’s place, located near the back entrance of Twin Lakes. It is the direction Zimmerman described.
Dispatcher: “He’s running? Which way is he running?”
Zimmerman: “Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.”
Zimmerman’s phone call was received at 7:11:12. At 2:42 on the audio, Zimmerman stopped running and lost sight of Martin. That puts it at 7:13:54 or so. Zimmerman continues to speak to the dispatcher until at least 4:12 of the audio, or 7:15:24. It’s reported that the phone call to Brandy Green ended at 7:16. The fight and shooting took place between then and when the police arrived at 7:17.
This is the point the gaps exist.
Zimmerman is reportedly parked on Twin Trees Lane. He says Martin is coming toward him, and then he says Martin runs. Zimmerman says that Martin runs “towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.”(3) That is SE of Zimmerman’s position and it is in the direction of the home of Martin’s girlfriend. (4) Zimmerman begins chase, but then stands down when it was requested he do so and he apparently loses sight of Martin. The question is, which way did Martin run? If he ran down Twin Trees avoiding Zimmerman (5), Zimmerman could keep him in sight for some time. That would put Martin some distance from where the altercation occurred- in between 1321 and 2821, as described in the police report. (6) Martin was initially placed near the clubhouse. If he reversed course, say to head up to Retreat Circle (7), then Zimmerman would not have described him running toward the back entrance on South Oregon. If Martin ran toward the area in between buildings 28 and 12 passing near Zimmerman’s car and then turning the corner, Zimmerman would lose sight of him quickly.
This is all of significance because there was less than a minute in between the time Zimmerman ended the call to the police and the beginning of the altercation as the phone call from Martin to Green is said to have ended at 7:16 and Zimmerman was speaking to the dispatcher until 7:15:24. That’s about 30 seconds for Martin and Zimmerman to come together.
Zimmerman had no idea to where Martin was headed. Zimmerman did not catch Martin while Zimmerman was on the phone and Martin had a head start even if he only “walked fast” he still could outpace Zimmerman. Yet somehow they could not have been farther apart than about 30 seconds closure.
Then we come to some other questions. If Zimmerman was “hunting down” Martin as some have opined, why did he not simply shoot Martin upon encountering him? Why would Zimmerman get so close to Martin that Martin could punch Zimmerman in the face and knock him down if his intention was to kill Martin? (BTW, ABC News has had an epiphany. It has decided that George Zimmerman had injuries after all) Would a person bent on murder allow himself to be assaulted and still expect that he could reach and fire his gun? If Zimmerman was brandishing a gun what could possess Martin to attack him? No reasonable person is going to charge someone aiming a gun at one. Zimmerman agreed to meet with the police as they arrived. Why would he agree to meet them and then chase after Martin to kill him? Why would someone bent on murder hold Martin at gunpoint while he screamed for 40 seconds? Because he wanted witnesses to the murder? Why didn’t Zimmerman run if murder was the goal?
None of this makes any sense.
Now let’s consider what probably happened. Back to the NY Times
Soon, callers to 911 were describing the presence of police officers, and the beams of flashlights gliding over a section of grass a few dozen yards from Trayvon’s destination, where a boy inside was waiting for Skittles.
A few dozen yards. A few is about 3. Three dozen yards. 36-40 yards. 120 feet. George Zimmerman loses sight of Trayvon Martin at 2:38 of the call, or about 7:13:50. Martin has until 7:16 to cover the “few dozen yards” to make it to the safety of Brandy Green’s residence. Zimmerman remains on the phone until 7:15:24. Martin’s girlfriend said the phone call went “dead” at 7:16, but Martin and Zimmerman were already exchanging words. According to Martin’s girlfriend, the conversation was initiated by Martin. The window between the end of Zimmerman’s call to the SPD and the meeting is brief. Really brief.
Martin had over two minutes to reach Green residence. Why didn’t he go there? This suggests strongly that Martin did not go to the Green residence, but instead hid somewhere, waiting for Zimmerman, and then confronted Zimmerman. Martin spoke first to Zimmerman, not the other way around. I think Martin approached Zimmerman’s car from the direction of the clubhouse, passed the car and then bolted. Martin then rounded the corner and hid. Zimmerman pursued until being asked to stop but lost Martin. As Zimmerman turned to head back to his car, Martin came out of hiding and confronted Zimmerman. The rest is history.
DrJohn has been a health care professional for more than 30 years. In addition to clinical practice he has done extensive research and has published widely with over 70 original articles and abstracts in the peer-reviewed literature. DrJohn is well known in his field and has lectured on every continent except for Antarctica. He has been married to the same wonderful lady for over 30 years and has three kids- two sons, both of whom are attorneys and one daughter on her way into the field of education.
DrJohn was brought up with the concept that one can do well if one is prepared to work hard but nothing in life is guaranteed.
Except for liberals being foolish.
@ Ilovebeeswarzone
Thanks for the kind thoughts.A lot of what I see locally are drug driven crimes. A vacant ranch house is a target because the copper wiring and water lines are easy to rip out of the walls. We have had people just pop up out the brush with no good reason for being there. A Bell Co. Deputy told me she had pulled a meth head over going into one of the parks that had meth cooking in the camper on his truck and that they were seeing meth being cooked back in the woods, just like the bootleggers in the 1930s.I myself and members of my family in nursing, have seen some tragic drug related cases, one family had all it’s adults(4, Coryell Co.)struck down with AIDS, from sharing their needles.
@The Strategic MC:
Zimmerman took on the role of Neighborhood Watch, the minute he phoned 911 to report Trayvon Martin as being suspicious. Yes, he definitely morphed into a Neighborhood Watch Volunteer at that point, regardless of running an errand. He was on Condo property, not out on the public streets. He was the Neighborhood Watch Captain. He was actually fulfilling his duty of observing suspicious persons inside private property, but as we know, he took it further. Zimmerman would not have been a sitting duck if he had followed the rules of the Sanford Police Neighborhood Watch Program. He would have called 911, reported the suspicious person, given a description, remained parked at the clubhouse and waited for the police to arrive and investigate.
Brian
hi, I bet you would be among the first to want the border shut complete,
the GOVERNOR OF TEXAS, RICK PERRY, WOULD HAVE DONE SOME ACTIONS IN THERE, HE WAS MY AND MANY HERE FAVORITE, RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT, HOPE THAT ROMNEY DOES IT.
HE SEEM TO BECOME CLOSE TO WIN IT ALL, AND HE IS MORE PRESIDENTIAL AS HE ADVANCE,
BYE
@Aye:
The handy illustration doesn’t control for variables such as varying rates of advance/travel and changes in vector or direction. Zimmerman may have briefly loitered at his furthest position of advance and/or stopped intermittently while returning to his vehicle in order to acquire additional situational awareness (stop, look and listen). Haven’t seen where this has been factored into the supposition.
2 ilovebeeswarzone
I guess one the reasons I take living out here for granted is that I don’t have people around me that are so insulated from reality that they think neighborhood watch “rules” trump the right of one to protect themselves, their family or others in fear for their lives. Having a CHL and leaving that sidearm in the glove box kind of negates having one in the first place. Maybe a large orange painted river rock would be preferable, I don’t know.
@Aye:
Other than that didn’t happen or we certainly would have heard of it since the media is most definitely ready to hang the Jewish spic with the history of coming to the aid of beaten homeless black men.
We’ll see. 😉
@c. lindy:
Neighborhood watch is just an organization that sells signs, t-shirts, and manuals to help neighborhoods organize. You can make your own group without ever having to order their kit. You’re just private citizens exercising your rights that all private citizens have, which, ironically, is probably more than what a police officer or an official representative of the State would have.
In this case it just appears that at an HOA meeting they asked for a volunteer to do patrols and collect information from people of what they see in the neighborhood. So after the previous volunteer stepped down, Zimmerman volunteered and was voted in at the HOA meeting and did not need any blessing from a higher organization.
As a private citizen, he is entitled to carry his weapon with a permit on himself at all times, unless on private or public property that is posted not to have weapons. But he can drive around his HOA neighborhood or to the store running errands and he doesn’t need official police or government orders to be entitled to carry his firearm. That’s florida, maybe your state is different. But the vast majority of States have some sort of concealed carry provisions, whether has a right, or at the discretion of a sheriff or judge, that allows citizens to carry a firearm at all times.
The Sanford City website has already answered most of these questions and should be considered a primer for anybody who might think that anything Zimmerman did was out of the ordinary.
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html
AYE
HI,
THANK YOU FOR THE INFO, yes I reallize that my analysts are flaws in some details,
like you mentioned, this is my own personal views from what is presented, and it come in different from
all point of views, but I hate to see a good person taking the task to help a community who would not standing out in the open to support him when he need it, even if the one is found not perfect, WHO CAN CLAIM TO BE?
BUT WITH THE COURAGE TO DO THE EXTRA MILE TO PREVENT A CRIME,
AND THIS IS MY NATURE TO GET ON HIS SIDE TOO,
I just happen to click on a TV CHANNEL WHERE THEY MAKE AND REPAIR GUNS AND OTHER WEAPON,FROM HERE, AND THEY TRY ONE WHO MAKE A BOMB LOOK SICK, THAT IS QUITE A GUN, WHERE THE TARGET DISAPEAR FROM VIEW.
BYE
bye
@Brian:
… and if we let Neighborhood Watch Captains to play by their own rules instead of the Sanford Police Community Watch rules, just think of the anarchy it would cause… worse than the Wild West.
@c. lindy:
Hard to dispute that he was in violation of the prohibition against being armed and I willingly concede the point. That being said, is there anything in the Neighborhood Watch rules that defines the on-duty/off-duty transition?
As for being compelled to only phone, report and wait, I politely disagree. As he was permitted to conduct non-contact surveillance in his role as a Neighborhood Watch volunteer, he attempted to maintain visual contact with Martin and apparently broke off this attempted trail upon the advice of the Sanford PD.
His violation of Neighborhood Watch Program rules (armed on duty) do not rise to the level of criminal culpability, all other stipulations (i.e., not in pursuit, ambushed and assaulted by Martin) being the same.
@Aye:
Is there a way for me to post a mushroom cloud in response to this post; a way for me to signal I’ve just witnessed the complete nuclear annihilation of another poster’s “arguments”? I’m not very good with emoticons.
@The Strategic MC: That assumes he armed himself with the intent of going out to be NW.
@c. lindy:
Wildly speculative, at best. I’ll assume that many “Neighborhood Watch Captains” fail to adhere to protocol and I’ve yet to hear of any trouble coming out of the O.K. Corral since 1881.
@Jeremy: Ah yes. The fly in the ointment.
Brian
as you probably notice, I like to bring my views on a suggestion,
okay here it come about your orange painted rock it would be good with a sling shot
aim at a suspicious stranger on your land,
remember like DAVID AND GOLIATH SLING SHOT AT THE RIGHT MIDDLE FOREHEAD, but it get heavy in your pocket.
YES THE NEIGHBORHOOD IN BIG CITY ARE NOT AS SMILEY NOW, PEOPLE ARE SCARE,
and don’t trust anymore. with good reason,
I’m watching a tv show of a small company repairing weapons, they have guns all over and other weapons
some are setting a explosif on a mile far, that one would be handy for you, and could lite your campfire at the same time
bye it’s called the gun store. I think NEVADA AND THEY ENGENEER IT ALL KINDS
@Jeremy:
Sorry, I have to disagree with you on this one. Neighborhood Watch Groups are not silly little clubs. And regardless of having a concealed permit to carry does not entitle a permit to carry a gun into certain place. Disney World is one of those places… and… there are FL businesses lined up for court trials who reserve the right to ban concealed guns from their property. After the teen killing, you can bet that those businesses will win their cases. Even former FL governor Jeb Bush has publicly stated that the “Stand Your Ground” bill he signed as governor in 2005, does not apply to George Zimmerman.
@The Strategic MC:
… and your last statements are wildly speculative. Do you really know any history on the Wild West and OK Corral? They all went by their own self rule. They gunned people down in the streets on speculation. Gun slingers who were a fast draw were the victors. Those who were not so fast on the draw pushed up daisies even though they may have been right. I’m not an anti-gun advocate, but FL law on concealed & carry surely needs some tweaking. Since this case has gone global, you can bet tweaking will come to legislation again for a thorough tweaking.
@c. lindy:
Any prohibition against concealed carry in Zimmerman’s neighborhood?
@c. lindy:
Wow, is there an emoticon for “tongue in cheek”? I should have used it.
Now that you mention it, I have been to Old Tombstone.
@c.lindy
The “Wild West” argument has been used to oppose “shall issue” CHLs in every state that adopted them.
The numbers tell us crime comes down when the public is allowed concealed carry. People who take this stance against CHL have abdicated their responsibility to protect their own and those around them. LEOs are only held by law to protect the public as a whole. They are not held under any law to protect the individual. God did not put us here to be mediocre or part of the food chain. To what ever level you wish to depend upon others for your security is your decision. After the 2008 elections Texas CHL apps jumped by 30,000 in a years time. Maybe it was the election of someone who looks like Trayvon’s Dad.
Jeremy
thank you for that info, it answered questions here,
would you know if they have signs up saying neighborhood check?
someone ask
bye
@Brian:
Funny that. The possibility that their next victim might be packing has predators and violent belligerents re-thinking their positions and looking for softer targets.
The Strategic MC
THAT WAS GOOD FOR ALL,
THANK YOU
@The Strategic MC
I thought i missed a sarc tag from c.lindy but it is really is a belief of some that responsible concealed carry and public safety are mutually exclusive. It apparently is a belief of some that concealed carry and a vigilant community are also. Concealed carry is in no way a blank check to wreak havoc on others. Having a CHL raises ethical and legal thresholds that one must meet in the use of force.If people want to infer malice on GZ’s part go ahead, both parties should have shown better sense. They chose poorly and TM much more than GZ. It has been stated that GZ should should never have been in as close as results suggest.That is so because distance=time= safety. That GZ found himself so close to someone he had lost sight of indicates surprise on finding TM in such close qaurters.
Brian
yes he was surprise of TRAYVON BECAUSE HE CAME FROM BEHIND HIM, AND FAST, BY WHAT THE TIME WE FOUND HE HAD RUN,
BYE
@c. lindy:
Please don’t take my word for it.
Why did Mr. Zimmerman have a firearm in his possession while acting in the
role of a neighborhood watch member?
Mr. Zimmerman holds a concealed weapon permit issued from the State of Florida.
He is authorized to carry the weapon in a concealed manner wherever Florida
Statute dictates. Neighborhood Watch programs are designed for members of a
neighborhood to be “eyes and ears” for police and to watch out for their neighbors.
They are not members of the Police Department nor are they vigilantes. Training
provided by law enforcement agencies to Neighborhood Watch organizations
stresses non-contact surveillance of suspicious situations and notifying police of
those situations so that law enforcement can respond and take control of the
situation.
Mr. Zimmerman was not acting outside the legal boundaries of Florida Statute by
carrying his weapon when this incident occurred. He was in fact on a personal
errand in his vehicle when he observed Mr. Martin in the community and called the
Sanford Police Department.
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf
This was in my original post.
Neighborhood Watch rules have no force of law behind them. And this was not part of the national program, The HOA simply voted a volunteer to run patrols at night. It’s just a common citizen exercising their rights like anybody else. That includes the right to bear arms, and the right to observe and report a suspect they believe is looking suspicious.
I know some people don’t agree with concealed carry laws, but you cannot deny that it exists. Zimmerman does not require any training or authorization from the State or Town to carry a weapon on him. It’s a right as a private citizen, and is irrelevant regarding the facts of the case unless it can be shown he brandished prior to the altercation.
@ ilovesbeeswarzone
I have hunted in Webb and LaSalle co.s in South Texas and Terrell co. in west Texas (think no country for old men). Illegals were not destructive at all 30 years ago.Now they tear up anything they get their hands on. Mexico has a civil war been the Cartels and Govt. The Cartels are trying to run people off in the Border counties to make a buffer zone to operate in. If you live on or near an Interstate Hwy you have cartel traffic. Rick isn’t bad for an Aggie. I wish he’d of cut back on the pain meds before the debates.
@Brian:
As a tactical matter, GZ appeared to have demonstrated a lack of knowledge and /or experience. No doubt, one of the principle reasons that 911 advised him that a pursuit was not required. Allowing himself to be overtaken, as claimed, doesn’t speak well of his fundamental situational awareness, although dark and rainy conditions create challenges, even for experienced patrol personnel.
@ilovebeeswarzone:
You are welcome.
@Brian: We do not have too much crime in my part of Colorado. (El Paso County) No in the Springs, there is crime. The County sheriff came from LA years ago and proceeded to encourage people to get concealed carry permits.
One incident was in an older part of town that had older people along with hispanics to include gangs. An older lady with a cane was on her way back from the neighbohood market and was accosted by 5 young gang members. She shot two of them. No one bothered her after that. The neighborhod was a little safer.
We have that “make my day law” here. It has been challenged and the home owners won. I tell you that if a black kid, white kid hispanic kid or any adult for that matter was wandering around our neighborhood with out rain gear in the rain looking at our houses, he would be challenged. We challenge cars that stop to look at our houses. The perfered carry weapon is a .357/.38 special hammerless that can be carried in a purse or a pocket and fired from there. The prefered home defense weapon is a 12 ga shotgun with 00 buck and an 18.5 inch barrel.
@The Strategic MC
Yes sir that is how I read it. He had dropped out of condition yellow, TM caught him flat footed and put him down. TM closed the loop before GZ knew he was even in the fight. At that point measured response, deescalation, retreat were gone. A lot of folks seem to think that GZ should have been a good sport, being Neighborhood Watch and all and let TM beat into a vegetative state.
@c. lindy: Maybe you should study the real west instead of fiction. What do you think happened to the James Gang when they went on the Northfield MN raid? The neighborhood watch got many of them.
@ Randy
People either get it or they don’t. You are either a sheep or a sheep dog. Colorado gets a bad rap because of all the Californians that have infiltrated there. It sounds like your chief is a keeper. It sounds like you have the kind of folks around you that use and value common sense. Values and common sense.
Wish they weren’t so uncommon.
@ Randy
People are dissecting TM and GZ’s actions right or wrong,good or bad. If that first witness had actually acted to stop the fight we wouldn’t be chasing each other around trying make things fit our idea of what happened on the ground. If that one person had run to the fight instead of away from it charges would been filed on TM but his mistake wouldn’t have been his last.
@Brian:
Few have acknowledged that minus GZ’s gun, this may have been the outcome. Regardless of how GZ found himself in that position, he was not obligated to exercise a level of restraint that did not stop the beating.
@Brian:
I initially gave some thought to this in the early days, but realized that very few have the courage to get involved. I cannot blame the guy, although i like to thing that I would have acted differently.
No one wants to get hurt or to incur legal liability, so the safe play is to always keep your head down.
@Brian: I can never understand people who run away or stand by. I remember that woman who was raped in NYC and beaten to death over about a 20 min period. No one helped or called the police. Yet, they criticize those of us who run to help just because we carry a weapon. The NYC incident impressed me greatly since I was about 12. I never ran from a fight or someone who needed help because of that, not even in Iraq. All of the lefties who are elevating the bullying issues are actually destroying the character of our kids. They never learn how to handle bullies. You can see it now where our president is a bully and so many fail to put him in his place. What was the name of the surface living population in “The Time Machine”? That is who we will become soon. Then the radical Islamists, the criminals and the drug cartels will own us!
@Randy:
In the case of boys, it’s called emasculation.
@The Strategic MC: After emasculation, many run for congress!
@ Randy/The Strategic MC
I know that there is nothing externally that would compel one to act in going to someones aid. There is the internal impulse to act against a wrong and that is what we are given each and every one of us. Some suppress it, that is the easy painless route, others act even at risk of harm to themselves. I had thought such to be waning from us as a people until I watched and worked and talked with the young people who volunteered to serve this country during time of war. I was humbled beyond words.
I think it is really what Bonhoffer said about Christians in Germany watching the Jews being scourged. That not to act is acting, failing others and knowing that God sees it.
@Brian: Yes, the will is in these young people, but the rules of engagement that Obama has insisted upon has created a different attitude then I say in 2003-2007. Now, you are afraid of prosecution by this administration. Look at the Navy Seals who were accused of ruffing up a terrorist or the Marines who wee accused of indiscriminate killing. All but one was exonerated, but they suffered for years and the costs was hig in dollars and morale.
@Randy
I understand that the drone pilots at Creech AFB have to have clearance from a JAG officer before firing on targets. I believe that issue may have been part of SSGT. Bales motivation. I think he wanted to send a message on the tribal level. Churchill soldiered against the Afghans as a young officer. His letters could have beenwritten by anyone there today. The Afghans best understand messages that arrive at muzzle velocity. Prayers out to Darkhorse 3/5 Marines.
The bottom line is … if Martin did not relentlessly beat Zimmerman, he’d be alive today. Being nosy or disrespected is no justification for assaulting someone. The ME/toxicology report should be interesting.
@Brian:
You were not there. It all happened in a minute. You do not know what it sounded like or looked like. At the time no one knew the circumstances. The sounds must have been horrifying. Who would walk into that blindly? People didn’t want to look out the window, much less go outside. People go into survival mode. George Zimmerman did.
@The Strategic MC: Why do I find it hard to believe a teen would walk more than two miles for an ice tea and skittles and then still have those items with him when he was shot? He didn’t drink the ice tea while walking home. Looking on Google maps, the closest 7-Eleven store I see is 2 miles away. Don’t know which is accurate, but either way – a 2-mile or a 4-mile round trip seems pretty far for a kid to walk for candy and ice tea and in my mind neither is “nearby” as most stories have described the distance. It’s nearby if you are driving – but not if you are walking.
This guy didn’t have a gun. This is the way some assert Zimmerman should have acted.
@Tracy:
Indeed. Although the candy was apparently intended for Trayvon’s brother.
The skittles and iced tea meme apparently started with Ben Crump, the Martin family attorney. Neither of these items has shown up in any official report that has been made public. Also, in addition to the distance, it was also raining, making any trip to the store, IMO, unduly arduous.
@Randy:
I’d always wondered about that!
@c. lindy:
If such loose cannons exist among the thousands upon thousands of neighborhood watches in America they obviously have not created conditions approximately the Wild West … anywhere. Conditions of deadly lawless anarchy do occur in America in neighborhoods dominated by the Underclass, however.
Which raises a question, why are so many American eager to lynch George Zimmerman and so determined to turn a blind eye to the decades long predations of the Underclass?