…he has essentially denounced as evil and misguided, though in a lukewarm fashion, decades of American policy in the Middle East. Second, he has delegitimized Israel, at least within the context of its current borders. Third, he has by implication suggested that the rule of many of his allies is undemocratic and in consequence, declared himself King of Arabia. He has assumed ultimate responsibility for the political development of the region now. He’s declared it broken. Now he owns it.
See author page
@blast:
I actually agree that we shouldn’t be funding them. But, then again, I am of the belief that we shouldn’t be providing funding for any other nation, or worldwide organization. If you denounce the funding to Israel, then by reason, you must also denounce the funding going to the UN, to Mexico, Argentina, and any other nation that we give aid, in the form of monetary grants, or loans, to. One can not engage in a process of picking winners and losers, whether it be domestically, or internationally, and expect to be renowned for freedom. Freedom doesn’t just entail the right to engage in success, but to endure failure as well.
So, do you denounce funding, no matter what the form, for all other nations and international organizations?
@nan (#212). I don’t disagree, but it’s more nuanced than that.
There are a number of issues ongoing, in the Arab world, which are only tangentially related, or not at all.
1. With regard to the caliphate: sure, this dream has not died. But there are very few Arabs who actually think that the West may be conquered at the point of a sword. In point of fact, they are doing very well in Europe, right now, through entirely non-violent means. This is only peripherally related to the Arab-Israeli conflict.
2. With regard to Jerusalem and Israel, there are really two, mostly unrelated things going on. First, there are the Arabs who keep alive the memory of Saladin and the Crusaders. I quoted this before: It took Saladin more than a century to re-take Jerusalem. So (a.) there are people with no direct claims to land but who are simply offended at the thought of modern day Crusaders occupying what they consider to be their historical land and (b.) there are people who fled in advance of the 1948 conflict — wanting to protect their families, because they just didn’t want to get caught in the crossfire between armies or whatever.
3. There are Arabs and Iranians (like Saddam and like Bin Laden and like Ahmadinejad) who simply use Israel for propaganda value to promote their own agendas.
It’s very easy just to lump all these together, but group 2 (b) does exist and, in my personal opinion, has legitimate grievances.
The other issue I want to address is the discussion about there never having been a “nation” of Palestine.
Yes, it is true that many/most (I don’t know the percentages of the Arabs living in the vast Ottoman Empire) were nomadic people. But that didn’t give the British the right to carve up the territory and designate a portion of it as a homeland for Europeans, who’s ancestors left the region more than a millennium before. I quoted the book chapter of the (Jewish) Penn State scholar, along with other data and opinions, which, collectively do a good job of explaining the various points of view.
With regard to your comment about my observation that Americans and Europeans let Germany off the hook for the Holocaust and solved the Jewish homeland problem at the expense of the Arabs — that this observation was the one made by the now notorious Helen Thomas — well, it’s an opinion I’ve expressed in previous Internet discussions, years before Thomas used this comment in a ranting diatribe. Here’s what she said (which is nothing at all like I said):
I never even hinted anything like that. The most controversial proposal I made was simply to pay what I called “blood money” to individual descendants of individual Arabs who lost their real estate in the 1948 Arab/Israeli War, which occurred as a result of the UN mandate creating a “homeland” for Europeans and thereby enraging the Arabs in the region. This was a purely pragmatic suggestion, to eliminate one of the obstacles to a resolution of the conflict. Maybe it’s a bad idea. But it was simply a thought experiment.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
@Nan G: and bees- Just the facts ma’am (s)!
@johngalt
Your question is very unequivocal and inflexible. My comments on the present issue have been focused on the duration and the amount of support and the unsustainable nature of perpetually providing aid.
Do you feel NATO should be defunded?
@MataHarley:
You are correct, but agreement to a ‘two-state’ solution does not create a nation, right? There has never been a Palestinian nation. I believe you know that so I likely am misunderstanding.
@mata
I bring him an CPAC up to point out that Conservatives can and do differ on policy, including aid to Israel, and they are not called liberal for their positions.
Well, blast… who ever said that all conservatives are clones in their beliefs and issues? Of course they differ. But there is a difference between conservatives and libertarians… as is both the Paul father and son.
As for CPAC, not sure who shows up at these things, but considering the past five conventions have straw poll results of Mitt for three years, and Ron Paul for two, they are not indicative of the nation’s conservative movement at large. Especially Mitt who is anything but conservative. Somehow I always find them disconnected from the nation at large. It’s not a “tea party” critter… been around since the 70s. So you can’t associate it with them either, save that the attendees might be any combination of tea partiers, libertarians, RINOs and conservatives.
Mitt has lukewarm support at best. Ron Paul is a dark horse where conservatives like his fiscal policies, but are world’s apart on his foreign policy… far more isolationist. I tend to think that attitude.. while highly successful in our first century… went away about the same time that oceans ceased to be a deterrent to enemies.
Paul’s first stab was as the libertarian candidate in 1988. After figuring out he’d never get anywhere third party, he ran his ensuing campaigns for Congress, plus his 2008 POTUS attempts, under the GOP banner.
openid, my God, man, do you ever read a newspaper? You think Arabs are doing well in Europe? Have you not read about the Paris riots, or the riots in Denmark? Do you not hear Angela Merkel, along with Sarcozy, saying that assimilation is not working with the “Asians” as Muslims are called in the foreign press? And while there are few Arabs that think the western world can be conquered at the point of a sword, conquest of the infidels is, and remains an Islamic goal. Only now they intend to do it at the point of a bomb.
Those Muslims who fled Israel did so not because they were driven out by the Israelis, but because they were told that once the Arabs retook the land of Israel, they could return to a Jew free land. So 600,000 Muslims fled to other Muslim nations where they were not given citizenship, or rights of a legal resident, or camped out in primative 7th century tent villages, waiting for the “right of return”, which never came. There were called refugess, and the UN now puts the number at something like 4.1 million. How many of those original 600K from 1948 do you think are still alive, and why are their decendants called “refugees”?
If the Palestinians have the ability to be a free nation that will prosper, why haven’t they already done it? Why are there still so many destitute in the Palestinian territories? What has happened to all the aid that many nations have sent them? Do you think that Hamas, who has traded relief aid for arms, will no longer do that? Why is there a “humanitarina crisis” (according to the U.N.) in the West Bank and Gaza? They have had the same length of time to make something of that land that the Jews have had to build Israel in to a prosperous nation.
@Esdraelon, yes I know this is still a pipe dream. Most have said that the only likely workable situation is a three state solution, giving control of Gaza back to Egypt, and the West Bank to Jordan. Neither of those nations want that.
I think my point was most say Israel is inflexible. To agree formally to a two state solution, where they have refused in the past, is progress… even if a futile solution. To the points that Israel is inflexible, I agree. Any way the two parties would agree on borders must leave Israel with defendable territory. That is also unlikely to happen, and even more so in the wake of the unholy alliance now between the present and future Egyptian government, and the unity between Fatah and Hamas.
I think Israel knows what’s around the corner… likely late this summer and prior to the Egyptian election and unilaterial declaration to the UN. I also think that BeBe traveled to Congress because he knows Israel has bipartisan support there that he doesn’t see in the WH. With the upcoming events, the WH is going to have a pick a side. Period. And we all know that Obama isn’t very good at anything save straddling fences to avoid culpability.
Perfect example of when I say you have dual standards, blast… one for Israel, and another for the rest. While I don’t agree with johngalt on our fiscal relationship with Israel, I respect that he is consistent. He is for abolishing foreign aid for nations… not picking and choosing based on some perceived value system.
What makes you say this, blast? Are you assuming that the UN can hear a unilateral declaration from a unity Palestinian government, and them simply ignore their declaration?
First of all, the UN General Assembly has demonstrated no love for Israel in the past, and quite likely to vote thumbs up. This is obvious with their vote of acceptance of the Goldstone report a few years ago, and their desires to see a unity Palestinian govt.
Of course, they are not empowered to create binding law and create nation states. But the symbolism alone is going to put pressure upon the rest of the community for recognizing this self-declared state with ambiguous boundaries.
With the Arab spring events, and the evidence that MB will be coming out on top in the upcoming Egyptian elections… the same roots as Hamas in Gaza… the new “democratic” rebellions are actually aligning themselves against Israel in the coming months. The last thing that Palestine wants right now is a “peace agreement”, because it precludes their planned declaration before a very friendly UN audience.
Nan G is correct about a new charter. And what is likely to be in that charter is the creation of that state as an Islamic state.
I think someone can explain of the war that BRITAIN where having and WON those lands,
before the JEWISH SETTELMENT,
openid.aol.com/runnswim, can you confirm that, they OWNED the land and gave it to the JEWISHS
WHICH NEEDED TO FIND PLACE FOR AFTER GERMANY DEFEAT FROM WW11 AS A COMPASSIONATE MOVEMENT TO RELOCATE SO MANY OF THE JEWS INJURED, A SKELLETON SHADOW OF THEMSELF HAVING ENDURE SO LONG IN SILENCE THE CRIMES OF GERMANS
I wrote that Islam is doing very well in Europe by entirely peaceful means. What I mean by that is not that they are assimilating nicely into society and becoming Westernized, but, rather, that Islam has experienced marked growth in Europe at a time when Christianity has been in marked decline. In addition to immigration, Islam is growing through religious conversion of indigenous Europeans. There has been vastly more progress in this regard (again, through entirely peaceful means) than there ever was through any type of violent means.
At the level of the individual people and families who were living in the region in 1948, I can readily understand that they did not wish to be in the middle of a cross fire. Prior to 1948, there was not some sort of homogeneous, unified nationally identified people (as many on this thread have pointed out), rather these were simply individual people, making individual decisions for themselves and their families. It’s unfair to say, “well, it was their choice to leave. They voluntarily abandoned their property.” We must ask ourselves what we would have likely done, had we been in their place, at that point in time and at that place. That’s what I meant about trying to walk a mental kilometer in their sandals.
I have never questioned the incredible accomplishments of the Israelis. The overachieving nature of Jewish people in general has been well documented; so it’s a bit unfair to compare and contrast the relative progress made by the different people in the region. Additionally, the Arabs, as has been pointed out, had never lived in politically-organized, self-governed nations. The Jews had a two thousand year history of educational, entrepreneurial, and political resourcefulness.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
Larry, about that ”right of return.”
IF, and it is a BIG IF, only the OLD people (who ACTUALLY left their homes because they knew there was going to be an attempt to wipe Israel off the map and they didn’t want to die with the Jews) were the ones being promised to get back ”their homes,” there would be very few coming back.
Israel might have allowed them back.
BUT, you and I both know the ”right of return” has nothing to do with people older than 73…..I’m generously allowing a 10 year old to be called a ”homeowner.”
“Right of return,” as defined by Hamas and Fatah and PLO includes every man, woman and child who wants to leave Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Gaza and everywhere else they are situated right now.
Any idea how many people it might be?
According to experts less than 1 million Arab refugees left Israel in 1948-9 & 1967.
Palestinian premier rejects Israel’s condition for talks.’, in USA Today May 7, 2003:
West Bank now has 2.5 million.
Gaza now has 1.6 million.
So, we are talking about an 8-year old number of at the very least 8 million coming into a country with a Jewish population of only 3/4ths of its 7 million inhabitants!
As Bibi said: it is NOT going to happen.
openid, you seem to be wearing blinders. Most Muslims living in France live off the dole. They don’t learn the language, consequently they are unemployable. In London, the Muslim mobs were so violent the police ran from them (time to arm the British police, I suspect). In Denmark, Jews are being chased out of their towns by Muslim mobs. And yes, there is tremendous growth of Islam in Europe. Did you ever ask yourself why? If the Muslims who have immgrated into European nations don’t want to assimilate, what is their purpose there? Could it be that the Qu’ran directs them to go a “live among them” the them being the Europeans?
You say the Palestinians left Israel because it was war torn. Fine. Why didn’t they return when the war was over? And then, you give me the greatest excuse you have so far presented for the lack of civilization in the Palestinian territories; the superior “over acheiving nature” of the Jewish people when that really has nothing to do with the failure of the Palestinians to make lemonaid out of lemons. It has to do with accepting victimhood as a way of life and not being responsibe for your own actions. IT IS JUST THAT SIMPLE.
You should research why Muslims are stuck in the 7th century. It didn’t start out that way; algebra, and that kind of stuff, you know. But somewhere along the way, that changed and it simply because a cult that wants to take what is not theirs, created by people who are not on a religious mission of conquest.
Bibi made the point that of the 300 million Arabs in the ME only 1 million of them are living under freedom.
Those 1 million live in Israel under Israeli law.
Polls of Israeli Arabs show they have no desire to live elsewhere under Muslim rule.
I wonder why that is?
What was the response of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to Bibi’s speech today?
What upset Abbas so much?
This:
So much for Fatah.
And what of Hamas?
So, defensible borders are a no-brainer. Israel will not be allowed to have defensible borders…..if Hamas has anything to do with drawing the lines.
@nan: Daunting numbers, for sure. But there could be something done, in between a “right of return” on one hand and doing nothing at all to acknowledge that there really were Arab individuals and families who lost a great deal, through no fault of their own, on the other hand,– there might be some sort of compromise. Let’s say, identifying all the various pieces of Arab property which were lost during the creation of Israel and assigning a value to each and giving the lump sum of aggregate money to some international equivalent of the guy doling out the BP oil spill money and let said international agency distribute the “blood money” to the various claimants and heirs. It wouldn’t satisfy everyone, but it would at least be a legitimate attempt to address the key grievance in a meaningful way.
With respect to the paucity of real estate improvement and economic development in Gaza and the West Bank, I don’t see the relevance of this to any aspect of my discussion. Whether the Arabs are living in squalor and who deserves blame for this is beyond the scope of anything which I considered.
With regard to the non-assimilation and what not of Arabs in Europe, again, that’s not relevant to anything I said. I simply made the point that Islam has made vastly greater inroads into the West through entirely peaceful means than anything achieved through violence, including 9/11 and other acts of terrorism. I will say that the non-assimilation is almost certainly cultural and not out of any sort of large scale or organized effort to serve as a beachhead for a caliphate. I say this because the Turks have lived in Germany for decades and also remain unassimilated and ghettoized, despite their comparative economic success. The Turks have shown no interest whatsoever in establishing a caliphate or turning Germany into an Islamic nation. Yet they remain unassimilated and ghettoized.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
@MataHarley:
At the risk of being ridiculed due to my Christina upbringing, and Oh, yes, Larry, my whole-hearted acceptance and belief in Jesus Christ and His atonement, I will firmly point out that the Arabs are neither now, nor ever going to wipe Israel off the map. I made a mention of Ezekiel, Chapter 38, earlier, and I will make it again: The major point is that the Arabs cannot do it by themselves! They have been defeated (badly) four times, in the last century, and for this next attempt they need a champion. They HAVE a champion: Russia. Research the ‘Chief Prince of Meshech and Tubal’, and the peoples who make up Gomer, and the house of Togarmah, and where they settled. It’s a slam dunk.
Ezekiel 38 (any emphasis is my own)(the reference to horses, bows and arrows are from a person thousands of years ago trying to describe the components of modern warfare that he is seeing in a vision)
1And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
3And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
4And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
5Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
6Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.
7Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them.
8After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
9Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
10Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
11And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
12To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.
13Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil? (pitiful protest)
14Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?
15And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
16And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
17Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?
18And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
19For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
20So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
21And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man’s sword shall be against his brother.
22And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
23Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.
I say: Let them bring it on! Because Israel also has a champion: The Lord God Almighty! Who in the past declared the Jews His chosen people and after the chastisement of the Holocaust, they will finally call upon Him for deliverance…and He will hear. In the past, Israel has done it themselves with a little help from the Lord, but the Arabs, this time, want to put an end to it, and Russia, as she is presently doing behind the curtain, will step to the forefront. The United Nations, United States, Europe, will simply protest, but take no action. What can we do? While Obama traipses throughout Europe, our totally unsustainable debt is growing proportionately. We are dead, just don’t know it yet. So we will only protest when it finally comes.
But it will come. As surely as the sun will rise in the east tomorrow.
I apologise for consuming all this bandwidth.
@ mata
Perfect example of dual standards??? John’s question did not just speak to nations. It was very broad and unequivocal, so I cannot say yes to something so broad. In his question it would include not supporting NATO, and was very inflexible. If it said unending foreign aid, that would be easy. In general I am against foreign aid, but I am sure a case could be made for emergencies or short term help.
@esdra (#238): When have I ever ridiculed any aspect of any religion on any post I have ever made on this blog? When have I ever ridiculed you?
Honestly, guys, as the only one here who actually signs his real name, I really do care about both my name and my life reputation. People just read what Esdra flippantly tosses off in the first two lines of his #238, and they assume that I’m just another one of those Bill Maher half-Jewish secular humanists who makes fun of evangelicals. Far, far from it. Read my comment #65 on the what are you doing for rapture day thread. I’m very pro-religion in general and pro-Christianity. I was a born-again evangelical Protestant myself between middle school and medical school, and was an active member of the United Campus Ministry in college; I’ve been married for 42 years to a Catholic, and I dearly love every Jewish bone in my 97 year old father’s still vibrantly active body. Through no fault of my own, I’ve drifted off to being sort of a spiritual deist by now, but you’ll never, ever read me bad-mouthing or mocking any religion which does not foster evil in its believers.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
Of proposed U.S. assistance for 2012, almost two-thirds is earmarked for Muslim nations and one-third goes to Arab countries.
$20.1 billion goes to Muslim nations, or those where a majority practice Islam.
About 33% or the total budget, or $11.6 billion is awarded to Arab countries.
80% of our aid to Arab countries pays for police and the military.
Yet, despite those billions in aid, opinion polls show most Arab citizens still have an unfavorable view of America and most Muslim nations routinely vote against U.S. interests in the United Nations…..
This document (PDF), released by the State Department, examines 13 critical votes in the UN in 2010.
Read more: http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/05/24/its-all-your-money-foreign-aid-muslimarab-nations#ixzz1NJWpug6B
Carolyn Glick touched on all of this better than I can:
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
And Larry, neither did I accuse you of Anything. Simply pointed out, and maybe I should have said so: “Per your earlier treatise…on your own religious bent”, I noted on mine that I am not ashamed of what I believe either, nor was there anything flippant about it. Nowhere did I ridicule you in the least, I also respect the fact that you are an agnostic, sic.
If you cannot find your answers, you just need to look harder, though you can get off this wounded sentimentality very easily simply by deciding to avoid falling back upon it.
Esd
@esd. ok, thanks.
Nan G, this is shocking, it could not be clearer than that. AMERICA PLEASE GOD HELP HER
@blast:
I’ll admit to my question being both of those. If one is not consistent on their stance, or view, then how can one stand on principle, concerning that view? You seem to be of a mind that Israel shouldn’t be funded in any way, while other countries that we benefit much, much less from, should still receive our aid. Is this correct? And if so, then why?
No, I don’t.
HE is playing the fear card to AMERICANS, saying, if we don’t get them in the GOVERNMENT,
THEY WILL ATTACK US, SO AMERICANS, BE AFRAID AND GIVE THEM YOUR GOVERNMENT
TO GET IN TO BE IN CHARGE OF YOUR LIFE, that is what it means that is what he mean what he is pressure to deal with by the brotherhood, they own him, he need their money for his next election as for the first. he sold the so important SECURITY OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
I think there is a difference between consistency and obstinacy. You have already admitted your question was “unequivocal and inflexible” so, those are not principals I adhere to.
No it is not correct. I also have not said we should cut off Israel today either.
The amount and duration of aid plays a big role in my book. If it looks like there is no end is sight, then a close look needs to take place. Israel is a bigger target because of the huge amount given. If aid is going to be offered, it should be finite and not ordinary, but extraordinary.
So what you’re saying… at least in Israel’s case which you specifically pointed out as a “larger target”… is that you want an “exit strategy” for foreign aid and ta hell with what the generals on the ground have to say.
Are you aware that:
Like I said, Israel… best bang for the buck in the region.
MATA, THAT IS A GOOD FIND, THANK YOU
@blast: You said:
Right out of Rules for Radicals by Alinsky, you ignore the issue and instead attempt to use ridicule rather than debate on the face of the facts.
You claim that we cause “blow back” by supporting Israel and that is what makes the muslim terrorists attack us. I showed you facts – cold hard facts – that the muslim terrorists need no reason other than the directives set out in their koran to kill infidels. And of course we all know that they define infidels as anyone who isn’t muslim.
Nice religion there and what makes it more curious is that you support that by your comments here at FA.
Looks like Obama has thrown in the towel.
“The U.S. very clearly believes that Hamas is a terrorist organization; that until it ceases its use of terrorism and recognizes Israel’s right to exist, that they can’t be a credible partner for peace,” Ben Rhodes, aide to U.S. President Barack Obama.
So, I guess Obama’s speech was just a lot of Hope-y Change-y stuff that went with a coin into a wishing well.
A little bit of breaking news that’s an example of how the IDF works.
The Spirit of Rachel Corrie was trying to break the Gaza blockade and only 400 meters from landing when it was fired upon by the Israeli navy.
There was only one tiny bit of damage: the steering!
“The ship’s aqua pilot sailing system has broken down and our ship is spinning, going in circles, and turning round and round.” a press release said.
oh… the irony. LOL I swear, Nan G, that almost sounds like Onion fodder! Thanks for the laugh.
Speaking at the AIPAC dinner on Monday night, Sen. Harry Reid (D-NV) told the audience that “no one should set premature parameters about the borders, about building, about anything else.”
Reid’s jab at President Obama was a reference to Obama’s Middle East speech last week in which the President said “the borders of Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps, so that secure and recognized borders are established for both states.”
Speaking at the same dinner, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that “Israel cannot return to the indefensible 1967 lines.”
The above is the entire article.
It’s a shortie, but a goody.
Harry Reid throws Obama under the bus?
I didn’t even know Harry Reid HAD a bus!
I am totally confused. I think that it is a fact that the Jews control the media as well as Hollywood. Jews are generally considered intelligent, shrewd business people ( I mean this as a compliment). Obama has sold out Israel, the Jewish homeland, and yet Hollywood and the media are in love with this socialist. I can only surmise that their liberal beliefs are actually more important than their religion and homeland. This truly shocks me, I thought much more highly of the Jews as a religion and nationality.
@Terryfizz: You honestly think there is a conspiracy among Jewish people to control Hollywood and the media??
You said:
It is actually that many Jewish folks here in America have far left liberalism as their religion, IMHO.
@Terryfizz:
Most American Jews go to Temple two or three times a year, like most American Christians.
They are “secular Jews,” or ”Jews in name only….JINO’s.”
My dad used to say our family had ”just enough Jewish blood to be thrown into the ovens.”
That’s why liberalism is more important to these secular Jews than another country they don’t even identify with.
@blast:
It is not obstinacy, blast. I stand by my principles upon reason,and when warranted, will rethink my positions when presented with countering arguments and reason. Obstinacy is the adherence to an opinion in spite of reason and argument to the contrary. Obstinacy is exactly how I would characterize you on this issue, for despite my listing of benefits the U.S. has gained from Israel, either directly or indirectly, and the listings that Mata has provided above, you still hold the opinion that we have very little national interest with Israel.
And yes, I do try to be ‘unequivocal’ in my questions, and answers. For you to use that term, in regards to my commenting, is a compliment.
Israel, in my opinion, which is based on my own knowledge of the country, and region, is of great benefit to the United States, both militarily and economically. It would be a great disservice to the Israeli people to abandon them at this time, after they have returned so much value back to us.
Terryfizz, yes that is probably why they vote democrats, hopefully,
they will see the light at the end of the tunnel in 2012
bye
@Nan G:
I am certain I misunderstand. Are you saying that most American Christians go to church two or three times a year?
@Mata,
Oh, so you really support stimulus? Sounds like socialism to me, transfers of wealth.
@johngalt
I guess you have not seen my comments that have indicated we should not just cut them off, but after 65 years of aid with no end in sight, well… I don’t think I am being obstinate I am being realistic.
As to Mata’s list of benefits, some have merit, but of course the removal of our aid does not mean all of those things would disappear. Plus, do you think we should be using this aid as a “stimulus” or as corporate welfare for aircraft builders? So you believe we should take money from taxpayers to give to businesses, through our foreign aid? Of course the industries involved, and the factions that support this aid will push political leaders to transfer money from the tax payers to other… again, I add – with no end in sight.
@anticsrocks,
Never read the book, but if you are going to foist a communication from Jefferson to an Ambassador in 1801 as some sort of harbinger of things today, I say that is stupid on its face. There is nothing to debate there.
Ah yes… another tangent by the desperate blast. Now you want to talk “stimulus”, and hope you can suggest I really support Obama’s spending?
Sorry to disappoint you blast, but there is wise government infused cash… aka stimulus… and unwise government infused cash. Interstate highways, bridges, refineries, shared infrastructure etal can be wise stimulus. High speed rails, in places where the demand and cost efficiency doesn’t warrant it, is not. While you want to now use the word “stimulus”, followed by a “gotch” type of spit, it doesn’t work save on the village idiot.
Take, for example, Obama’s grant money to various firms… most of which resulted in sending the manufacturing out of the nation.
Wise stimulus? Hardly, if the stimulus was designed to improve the American economy… which it was.
The military foreign aid to Israel saves the US costs as noted above in the presence of military, savings in intel, shared training facilities, and triggers other sales for American manufacturers in the region. And for that “stimulus”, 74% of it must stay in the US.
Yup… best bang for the buck in the region. Proven even more so by your attempted distraction.
So what country’s foreign aid has “an exit plan”, blast? And why aren’t you complaining about them? But then, I think we already know the answer to that.
@anticsrocks:
Conspiracy? Who said conspiracy? I believe (you may disagree) that they control many aspects of Hollywood and the media. My comments related to my surprise that they have not seemed to stand up for Israel or show objective critique of the Obama administration.
I understand the need for taxes to pay the federal government to support the needs of this country, but I do not see where the taxpayers should have to pay to support/socialize foreign countries.
With a 14.5 trillion budget deficit and giving handouts right and left, we are in fantasy land.
Looks like this years deficit itself will be about 1.6 trillion…..borrowing 1.6 trillion….seems we are simply borrowing money to give away….or maybe foreign aid is calculated before we hit the deficit??
Smoke and mirrors….we don’t have any freaking ‘aid’ to give…we can’t even aid ourselves….insanity!
Esdraelon, “foreign aid” takes many forms. Some are actually profitable for the donor… as in the case of Israel’s military aid. Some are not… most of the time the social and humanitarian aid. Other forms of aid come in grants, which can yield shared tech advancements… again as in the case of Israel. Guaranteed loans are not “aid” because loans must be paid back. The worst that can be said for the loans made thru the World Bank and IMF is that they are generally low or no interest loans to the recipient nations.
The purpose of foreign aid also has to be taken into consideration. If it is to advance the recipient nation’s economy and results in increased shared trade, then it can have an advantage. But the fact is, most endeavors to effect economic improvement in the recipient nation do not work. Israel is an exception in this case.
Other times it is to effect political change or aid in US interests, like the intent of the money to Pakistan for fighting the global Islamic jihad movements and to promote counterintelligence. While many complain about their performance for the cash, the fact is the amount the US sends to Pakistan for counter terrorist action is not enough to cover their costs of doing so. Egypt is another one. The military aid their has enabled a very competent military… you know, the same ones in charge of the country until the MB/Salafists take it over in Sept?
I’m not against foreign aid as a blanket statement, but need to look at the specifics on a one on one basis for the way it’s set up, and the benefits for the donor nation (i.e. the US). And believe you me, most foreign aid tends to benefit the donor nation more in results than the recipient… a constant complaint by the int’l do gooders.
In the case of Israel, it’s money well spent. We get it back in a plethora of ways. I haven’t decided on Pakistan yet, but still leaning towards pro over con on that one.
On the other hand, our dues at the UN are $362,852,996 annually…. per their site. And that doesn’t include extraneous costs on top of that for the budget. The Wiki database (yes, that’s a caution sign… LOL) says that as of 2005, we owed $1.246 billion. Benefits? Zip, IMHO. Money down the drain, as far as I’m concerned. Then there’s NATO, another drain. We spend lots of cash handing our troops and equipment over to inept foreign command.
@Esdraelon:
Esdraelon, we’ve seen it the same way at every church we’ve been members of.
Our congregation is so-and-so big until Easter or Christmas when it swells to more than twice its size.
Polls of Christians back up what we’ve seen over our lives.
Many people self-identify as Christian yet only attend once or twice a year.
Esdraelon, did you read the FOX LINK AT NAN G, THAT 2/3 RD OF FOREIGN AID GOES TO MUSLIM COUNTRYS SO WHERE DOES OBAMA ‘S BEST INTEREST GO WITH YOUR MONEY, NOT HIS OWN MONEY, RIGHT YOU ARE, at least ISRAEL GIVE IN RETURN A LOT OF MILITARYS ‘S LIFE, THEY WOULD HAVE LOST IN MANY INSTANCES IF THEY WOULD NOT HAVE A LAST MINUTE WARNING CALL
FROM ISRAEL. BUT THE MONEY SPENT ON MUSLIMS IS TO MAKE THEM FEEL GOOD,
AND THEY LOVE TO BUY WEAPONS, SO IT’s eazy to calculate where OBAMA’S FRIENDS
SPEND THE AMERICANS ‘S MONEY.
@ mata,
Desperate? Hardly Mata, you are grasping at straws to paint the give-a-way’s as a good deal no matter how much it cost us or how long it will last. You narrowly cast what we give Israel and ignore all the additional money we he have to give Egypt etc.
You are great at spending money and not paying for things mata.
blast, you dash off so many cliffs is in your comments, it’s hard to keep up.
Only you could consider the info I provided about our fiscal relationship with Israel, and our benefits… including the figure from a US intelligence leader noting the value of the intel… as “narrowly cast”. That’s because facts get in the way of your rants and tirades that seem to be specifically focused on the Jews.
Nor did I ignore the money for Egypt, and in fact specifically addressed your off tangent bread crumbs in my comment #158. Allow me to repeat it for you…
I will also remind you that the Egyptian and US military have shared much as a result of this alliance and aid. And that they have been effective in helping Israel keep the peace, thus saving us more cash, since that treaty. But your POTUS has pretty much cinced that with his advocation for the removal of Mubarak.
Considering you’ve pretty much made up everything I’ve said, twisting it around to suit your own fallacies, you put the icing on the cake with this generic blather:
My household doesn’t function on credit, blast. I don’t spend what I don’t have. As far as being a citizen of this nation, I suggest your turn your beefs to Congress, and to your heroic POTUS who has exacerbated the irresponsible spending by both parties in Congress… most of the decades being under Dem control…. beyond all comprehension.
Yes… you are desperate. You can’t substantiate your distaste for Israel with facts, just emotions. I ask you what “exit plan” we should have, and you come up blank. If the foreign aid results in increased trade and US commerce, as it does with Israel, we should cut it because blast ain’t happy?
The foreign aid that does not benefit us should be cut. The foreign aid that does… as it most obvious in Israel’s case… should continue. It’s called fiscal and national security common cents and sense.
@ILOVEBEESWARZONE
beez, yeah,the bulk of that to support Iraq, Afghanistan…(to rebuild and for military support) and to Pakistan for all that wonderful help they have been, and Egypt because we are obligated to give them 2 dollars for every 3 we give to Israel.
Blast, geez, only 3 to ISRAEL AS OPPOSE TO MUSLIMS COUNTRY 2,
have you notice how the prices went up the ceiling in theses time we live in,
I SURE HOPE YOU GIVE ENOUGH TO ISRAEL FOR THEIR SERVICES, ARE COSTLY TOO,
MORE THAN 3 DOLLARDS AS OPPOSE TO 2 ELSEWHERE,
THEY ARE SURELY WORTH MORE THAN THAT,
why don’t you cut on the terrorists income,to give a raise to ISRAEL FOR THEIR SCIENTIFIC STUDY,
DONT BE CHEAP, ON THEM, THEY ARE TRUSWORTHY ON THEIR SIDE.
I BET you get a service from your brother for nothing, and pay a big amount for the same service to a suppose expert, while your brother get a cheap beer.
@blast:
That is an opinion. It is the opinion of some here, obviously not I, that we continue to provide aid to them, based on what they consider acceptable benefits to the United States by doing so. You have given the opinion that we gain very little in benefit from the aid to Israel. Mata, and others, with my help, have given you lists of items that they, and I as well, consider acceptable reciprocation on their part, for the aid that we have given them. You have even stated that the intel we gain from them isn’t worth the aid, however, Mata has cited a source that claim’s Israel’s intel gifts to the United States top all others, combined. Do you have a source that states differently? If so, then present it. With nothing else to base your comments on, all we are left with is that it is your opinion on the matter, with little to no facts shown to base it on.
If you’ve read any of my comments here on economic issues, then the answers that I would provide are quite obvious. If your reasoning for cutting off aid was the same as mine, then you would support the ending of ALL aid, to every country. Instead, from what I’ve gathered, you would pick some countries to continue giving aid to, while others you would cut off. Which, in itself, would be ok, if you presented to us a list of qualifying reasons to give monetary aid to another country. For example, if you supported giving aid based on fighting worldwide diseases, such as AIDS. Or supported giving aid so that emerging nations can invest in their own infrastructure. I wouldn’t agree with those reasons, but at least then you would have qualifiers attached to who gets aid and who doesn’t. Have you presented any here?
@johngalt
I did not know there was some obligation to ponder and post all the potential scenarios where aid might be rendered…. Your question had an all or nothing approach, I choose not to take that tact, but for sure Aid would not be opened ended and for 65+ years.
So since you are for not providing aid in any form, what if an outbreak of Ebola, or some infectious disease that is easily transmitted, broke out in a country where the resources were too small to deal with it, and the potential for a global epidemic was real. Would you provide funds to support the effort to monitor and eradicate the threat? See, being inflexible would be a bitch in that case.
Well, mata popped in aline without context or attribution. A quick review of General Keegan, his official bio did not even show the title mata presented (his bio showed him as assistant chief – not chief), plus he was retired and not even acting as an air force intelligence officer during all of the years stated (mata posted 1974 to 1990, Keegan was retired in 1977). So there seems on the surface to be some inaccuracies in her comment, or maybe the Air force bio for the general is in accurate.
here is the link to his bio: General Keegan became assistant chief of staff, Intelligence, Headquarters U.S. Air Force, in March 1972.
Oh, and I don’t dispute that Israel provides intelligence to the US, I also am sure we provide intelligence to them as well… that seems a fair trade.
First of all “Mata” did not present”. “Mata” cut/paste from that particular article linked. Since you prove yourself to be high on emotions, low in common sense, and even more deplorable in reading capabilities, his AF bio shows you to be tunnel visioned to his various titles in a plethora of departments in his career before he died in 1993… ranging from chief to assistant and deputy chief.
The error of his title was not mine, however his bio shows he was chief of various intelligence operations throughout his career, as well as deputy chief in others. This proves him to be more than credible for his assessment of the import of Israel’s intelligence contribution to the US. You’re credibility? zip… nada…. zero.
Really, blast. From your emotional armchair assessment, just how strong is the US HUMINT force in the ME?
sigh… I really get tired of you and a few others, telling me what I said, and getting it unbelievably wrong. That you mischaracterize my views on taxes and IRS reform remains as despicable as your personal disdain for Israel. I have said all over the tax cuts and economy threads that I prefer the Reagan method, which is… and always is… a combination of tax cuts and reform of credits, subsidies, rebates. What Reagan did was lower the individual tax rates. Since corporate contributions to the US revenue largely come in the form of the shareholder individual tax returns, this affects all in a positive matter. Then what Reagan did was remove particular and ineffective corporate benefits in order to kick start a stalled economy. That he did, as the economy did recover.
Obama’s policy of just taking and redistributing to the low income does not kick start an economy.
I suggest you do not attempt to speak for me, blast. You simply don’t have enough upstairs to handle that task.
@mata
Not really mata, I have hit you with that for a long time. We have gone around and around with the money spent in Iraq and its effect on the national debt… I have said pay for it, you call for keeping tax cuts. So our deficit balloons. And before you pull out your diatribe about Obama, he is no better. You and Obama have the same philosophy! Spend, borrow and print.
@Terryfizz: Just clarifying, Terry. Not to be rude, but your comment seemed a bit “conspiracy theory” to me. I just don’t see the Jews controlling any more or less of Hollywood, MSM, etc… than any other ethnic group.
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