I’m more than likely going to get left behind:
We thought there was more time to get ready for the Judgment Day that evangelical radio broadcaster Harold Camping predicts is coming on Saturday.
But now we read in The Atlantic that Camping says the Rapture will actually get started when the clock hits 6 p.m. Saturday at the international dateline way out in the Pacific. And then, according to The Atlantic, it will spread “like a rolling brown out” as earthquakes and other disasters start happening around the world.
By The Atlantic‘s reckoning, things will get going at 11 p.m. tonight on the West Coast of the U.S., or 2 a.m. Saturday on the East Coast.
Uh oh…
“No one knows when that day or hour will come-not the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father…and Harold Camping”-Matthew 24:36
For those of us left behind, see ya October 21st!
….Or maybe the end of the world happens in 2012, after the presidential election.
So…what does everyone have planned for this weekend? Would love to hear the revelation!
Clinton Goes to Hell
One day in the future, Bill Clinton has a heart attack and dies. He immediately goes to hell, where the devil is waiting for him. “I don’t know what to do here,” says the devil. “You are on my list, but I have no room for you. You definitely have to stay here, so I’ll tell you what I’m going to do. I’ve got a couple folks here who weren’t quite as bad as you. I’ll let one of them go, but you have to take their place. I’ll even let you decide who leaves.”
Clinton thought that sounded pretty good, so the devil opened the first room. In it was Ted Kennedy and a large pool of water. He kept diving in and surfacing empty handed. Over and over and over. Such was his fate in hell. “No,” Bill said. “I don’t think so. I’m not a good swimmer and I don’t think I could do that all day long.”
So the devil led him to the next room. In it was Newt Gingrich with a sledgehammer and a room full of rocks. All he did was swing that hammer, time after time after time. “No, I’ve got this problem with my shoulder. I would be in constant agony if all I could do was break rocks all day,” commented Bill.
The devil opened a third door. In it, Clinton saw Jesse Jackson lying on the floor with his arms staked over his head, and his legs staked in a spread eagle pose. Bent over him was Monica Lewinsky, doing what she does best. Clinton took this in in disbelief and finally said, “Yea, I can handle this.”
The devil smiled and said “OK, Monica, you’re free to go!”
Joke about Bush, Obama, and Hell
George Bush, Queen Elizabeth, and Vladimir Putin all die and go to hell. While there, they spy a red phone and ask what the phone is for. The devil tells them it is for calling back to Earth. Putin asks to call Russia and talks for 5 minutes. When he was finished the devil informs him that the, cost is a million dollars, so Putin writes him a check. Next Queen Elizabeth calls England and talks for 30 minutes. When she finished, the devil informs her that cost is 6 million dollars, so Queen, Elizabeth writes him a check. Finally George Bush gets his turn and talks for 4 hours. When he was finished the devil informed him that there would be no charge for the call and feel free to call the USA anytime. When Putin hears this he goes ballistic and asks the devil why Bush got to call the USA free. The devil replied, “Since Obama became president of the USA , the country has gone to hell, so naturally it’s a local call.”
This is simply something coming out of the south end of a horse traveling north. These same people have done it before to raise money. Nothing but a scam.
Scripture has decidedly clear signposts that point towards the second coming of Christ. It is surprising how many fringe groups who call themselves Christians prefer to dump scripture for their own prognostications.
If those signposts are to be believed, we certainly are in the general time leading up to His return. I believe we can look at the 38th chapter of Ezekiel for the outline of an event that has to happen years Before His return. It is when Israel/Jerusalem, a ‘city without walls’, is encompassed by it’s enemies and under imminent attack, in the latter days.
Sit down and have a read.
and Word….nice jokes..:-)
Jesus is coming. Everybody look busy.
(I think I got this one from the same web site as you got your first Clinton joke):
Clinton and the Pope
Bill Clinton and the Pope die on the same day, but a mixup in the afterlife paperwork sends them to the wrong places: the Pope goes to hell and Bill goes to heaven. After a couple of days they fix this problem and the Pope gets on the escalator to go to heaven and Bill gets on the other to go to hell. The two pass each other on the way and Bill asks, “How bad was it down there?” The Pope says, “Not that bad, kind of hot and noisy, but I am glad to be going up to heaven now. There’s one thing up there I have been looking forward to.” Bill asks, “What is that?” The Pope replies, “I want to meet the Virgin Mary.” Bill, shakes his head sheepishly and whispers to the Pope, “Too late.”
In the few minutes I heard Rush today while driving, he reminded his audience of Michael Crighton’s analogy/comparison of global warming fanatics and christianity: sin, penance, redemption, and eternal life (for better or worse), making the point that they are both “religions.”
Bottom line, we all have our “religion”, be it based on sacred scripture, the ‘silliness’ of scripture, junk science, good science, wishful thinking, addictitions, or whatever one clings to in life.
To quote an overused cliche (which actually fits in this case), at the “end of the day”, we are all one day closer to the “end times.”
Never mind that the “rapture” has nothing to do with Christianity or Scripture, doomsday always sells.
LOL Patricia. Well, one major difference is that at least most Christians believe in a Rapture and an escape, while the AGW crowd has “Capture”… as in carbon credits…. and a padding of their wallets.
Rapture is another made up term by Christian fundamentalists. It is cute when in fiction books, but is always exposed as a fraud when an actual date is used.
I’ll be buying my asbestos suit. I’d like to beat the rush.
@Patricia:
Actually the rapture Does have to do with Christianity, not that I necessarily cater to it, however, it is a distinct part.
Sorry Esdraelon, according to Scripture, there is only ONE “2nd coming”, not special “raptures” for loony book selling purposes (Left Behind).
I have no desire to get into a biblical debate, only making the same point as Blast that the “rapture” was invented by Christian fundamentalists. Actually, it’s quite blasphamous for anyone to think they “know” being that Jesus clearly taught that the end would come like a “thief in the night”, something only the Father knows.
Buy hey, as I said, doomsday sells. It’s just that the only thing “left behind” are going to be empty wallets!
@Patricia:
Oh, I’m assuredly not getting into a debate. The rapture is not the second coming. The second coming is outlined in the Revelation, if you happen to believe that. I simply pointed out that it IS a distinct doctrine of Christianity, especially in the South, though I have never put a lot of stock in it.
On Monday, its Victoria Day for us and thus, a long weekend. We’ll be in hoodoo country( Roadrunner and Wile E. Coyote terrain) which is east of Drumheller( private land). We finally got our Mcmillan Tac 50 rifle and all sorts of ammunition to play test. The atvs and bikes are all loaded and the rotties, pit bulls, and labs are all excited, because they sense fun time is coming up. No booze and rifles. An authorized armorer is going to show up Sunday for fine tuning. Its going to be a praise the lord and pass the ammunition weekend.
The Lord Jesus is going to return a the last day whenever that is and that is all there is. the present age will be over with and at that day will be the seperating of the sheep and goats. from the book of Daniel and the book of John.
If someone can find biblical proof of the rapture I will give you five dollars.
Well, this is one Christian who won’t spend time debating an unscriptural doctrine with folks when I could be going to my local record store for their ”End of the World” sale.
It is supposed to be a really good sale!
And then there’s a new Jesse Stone mystery on CBS Sunday night at 9 pm.
I just don’t miss those.
Greetings Zac,
How’s this?
“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not precede them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caughtt up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. ” 1Thes. 4: 14-16
The Greek term Paul uses for “caught up” is “ἁρπάζω”, pronounced “harpazō”, which means to “snatch” or “seize by force”.
When Jerome compiled the Latin Vulgate in the late 4th and early 5th Century, he used the latin verb most closely aligned with the greek “ἁρπάζω”, namely “rapiemur”, which comes from: rapio, rapere, rapui, raptus. (from which we get rapture)
Hence the Vulgate passage reads as follows:
4:17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur c*um illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cu*m Domino erimus
:17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
So is the “Rapture” in Scripture? You bet your rapiemur it is. Now how you exegete the passage and develop a theological framework for it is another thing entirely. Therein lies the rub.
My question to you is: Will you be paying by cash or check?
In Christ,
Ariel
Not so fast there Ariel. You used a Catholic translation, which in proper Catholic context, refers to the “one and only” 2nd coming of Christ, not the fictitious “rapture” invented by the left behind crowd.
If anything, you prove the point of how “unscriptual” it is, since the fundamentalists , famous for “cherry picking”, use the Catholic translation and disregard the context. Being that Catholic teaching doesn’t teach “the rapture” save for everyone at the 2nd and last coming, it makes no sense to say it’s scriptual.
I’m with Nan, cashing in on the end of the world sales!
Hard Right, do you mean beat RUSH LIMBAW?.
you well know that ASBESTOS will shorthen your life, as it”s poisenous?
Ariel, hi, the way you mentionned it ,
look like a terrorist attacking a plane,
be caught up in the air, sound familiar
Nan G , yes go on and watch your movie like it’s the last one,
you’ll ever see
Zac, It’s worth more than that
Patricia, you know he could get shot by OIL GUY FROM ALBERTA,
if he come like a thief,
@ilovebeeswarzone:
Bees, I don’t know if Rush will need a fireproof suit, but many others will. I’m counting myself among those likely to need one.
As for longevity, if I’m in hell, the lifespan problem is solved.
Really, I shouldn’t need one. As I live in AZ, I expect hell to be only a little hotter than what I’m used to.
Well goodnight all. Don’t let the rapture bite.
The way I understand it, the rapture is by invitation only, and I ain’t got mine yet, so I guess I will be one of the ones left behind.
the “rapture” was first put out in the 19th century. How many people knew that? and John Nelson Darby is the one who really pushed it forward. I would suggest going to read the book. “the Apocalypse Code” written by Hank Hanegraaff.
When i croak i am going to see the Lord face to face just as the Bible says. period and not because i am a good person. Only because i trust in the Lord Jesus my great Redeemer.
Doing anything special? Well my youngest son is 1 yrs old today but he’s missing his mummy because she’s in hospital due to a operation she had yesterday on her throat but should be back tomorrow (if the world doesn’t end). Not easy looking after 3 boys under 3 years of age! Still hoping the world doesn’t end as I’m starting a new job in London – so moving back to the UK. As a borderline atheist/agnostic I’m pretty sure I won’t be one of the unlucky ones who get to descend up to heaven and be stuck with fellow fundamentalist Christians. I wonder what lame excuse Harold Camping is going to use when the Rapture doesn’t happen?
Patricia and roger o have made such great points, of course bees has out done them in the humor department (as usual) and wordsmith is a close second. So that being said, I’m not quite ready to hand my five dollars out willingly.
By the way, I understand roger to be right, the concept behind the rapture is a very recent phenomenon.
The recriminations are starting to roll in, e.g. one of them the first comment on this thread, to wit:
Basically, the charge is that Camping built up a ministry based on “Rapture Theology,” and, over the years, raked in many millions of dollars in donations and from other sources. All for selling something which didn’t turn out to be true.
Giving Camping the benefit of the doubt (i.e. that he really believed what he was preaching), I don’t see how he would be deserving of the term “scam artist.” How different would be be from any other religious messenger who ever lived — all giving public witness (and often earning livelihoods) — from spreading their own versions of “the true religion.”
Likewise, how many so-called messengers of God (preachers, priests, rabbis, lamas, mullahs, and other assorted clerics) have, deep in their hearts, not really believed in their own messages, readings, sermons, and rituals, yet earned a livelihood from their chosen occupation? I’d put this number at millions, including a great many who are still at it — in pulpits, cathedrals, and temples the world over, and on the airwaves and in cyberspace.
The starkest difference between Camping and all the other Men (and Women) of God is that the actual truth or fiction of Camping’s preaching actually received an antemortem, black and white test. Whether other prophets and religious teachers preach truth or myth is never tested on this side of the Great Divide.
- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
Larry you make an excellent point, and validate Michael Crighton, who believed that Al Gore (and the AGW crowd) was/is as “religious” as Billy Graham. However, most would probably conclude, at least based on behavior, that Billy Graham lives what he preaches. Al Gore on the other hand, couldn’t possibly take this stuff seriously simply based on his lifestyle of big homes and private jets.
As for the “black and white” proof, that would be counter to faith itself, as the whole point is to believe and trust in something bigger than ourselves, that’s why it’s “faith” and not certitude (it’s in the faith that we DO eventually get the certitude). While no one can be certain with proof where any of us end up, we DO have examples of “faith in action”, for better or for worse, i.e., Mother Theresa, Ghandi, Bin Laden, Pope John Paul II, CS Lewis… There is no question that the Christians among the group left the world a better place. Bin Laden, not so much.
On a side note, I worked a graveyard shift last night at a medical center. I’m pretty sure we broke ER records last night as it was truly the most traumas I had ever experienced at one time, all but one of them drug and or alcohol related. My guess is that the accidents were mostly related to “end of the world parties.” Sadly in that sense, some DID get “raptured” last night.
Patricia, this is another great comment of your’s, please keep them comming,
Wordsmith hi, such a good POST AGAIN,for us to reflect on our end of our world,
we seem to behave that we are eternal most of the time, but IT’S a good thing to step back
and you provided the tools for refexion on each of our day left, to try better.
thank you Patricia , and Wordsmith.
So say everyone does get “caught up” in clouds (on heaven or earth?..) Where is the part that says when that will happen, as they tell us its prior to judgment day, where is the scripture? That one is just a bit to much of a long shot. Of course I would not mind if the evangelical christian hippsters down the street disappeared, I just can’t find any nice way to get those kids to leave me alone, for that reason I would be grateful with the rapture.
Larry:
It appears certain that you would like to bolster your own unbelief and intellectual comeuppance over those who do believe with such statements, making a smug presumption attempting to call to question the sincerity of the beliefs of those ministers, clerics, and others “just making money” of the issue and not really believing what they preach.
You would like to accuse others of living in a fantasy world when you live in one of your own where the worlds population agrees with you rather than practically 86% of them disagreeing. You are welcome to you opinion, however, such viewpoint simply magnifies the vapidness or the rest of your ‘opinions’ expressed in these pages.
It is curious that most of your ilk posturing upon this subject are flying completely by the seat of their pants, not knowing the first part of what they claim to know and assuming that the more they posture, the greater the impression will be that they are the worlds repositories of intellectual acumen.
Aside from this ‘rapture’ thing, however, let me point out something to you: don’t you find it extremely curious that up until May 1948, the worlds Christians, for instance, fervently believed the prophecies of the bible even though the focal point of those prophecies, Israel, did not exist?
Well, now it does, bringing back to the forefront the end-times prophecies of Israel and the surrounding Arab states. Your disdain, ignorance, and disregard of the issue, notwithstanding, does not change the fact, nor does your disdain, ignorance and disregard of those who believe in Jesus Christ likewise changes nothing but your attempt to exhibit a scholarly understanding of the matter Does Not exist.
Now, about this ‘rapture’, it is a very recent phenomenon with respect to the biblical timeline of thousands of years, coming about in the 19th century. It based upon specific verses in the bible, but one has to stretch a bit into the supernatural in order to gather what it is about. I, for one, prefer to see as much of the ‘natural’ as can be seen in scripture before I begin looking at it from the supernatural. The basic question is whether the church will be taken off the world or will it have to go through the great tribulation with the rest of mankind? That is what the ‘rapture’ is all about. As I see it, the church will endure the great tribulation here on earth, but there is scripture suggesting that it will not.
The basic misunderstanding of the Second Coming of Christ is to what purpose there is a second coming. There are prophecies in the Old Testament, Ezekiel, Chapter 38, the Book of Daniel, etc, the specifically relate to the end times, curiously focused right there at Israel and the surrounding Arab states. The prophecy is also quite clear and takes very little ‘interpretation’. What we have is a final battle situated in the Middle East, called Armageddon (which is simply a word describing the location: Armageddon is the Anglicized form of the word Har-magedon, which is found only one time in the Bible. It is found at Revelation 16:16. In most dictionaries the meaning of this word is said to mean “mountain of Megiddo.” and that Megiddo was a strategic location in the ancient Middle East where many decisive battles were fought. Interestingly, there is no literal “mountain” of Megiddo.
The point is, however, that this will be the scene of a final world war and it precipitates the return of Christ to save man from himself. Yes, sir, this will be a nuclear war, and a war to end all wars. Most think it is unthinkable, but the bible, that mythology, points right at the flashpoint: Israel. Coincidence? I think not. If the bible focused on some other area of the world, like Eastern Europe, for instance, I can see why it would easily be disregarded, however, curiously, its right there where it proports to be.
Of course, this is just my ‘opinion’, however, I guarantee it is based on far more study and discernment that your nonsense about whether these people who follow Jesus Christ, and teach the Scriptures are hypocrites. That’s your OPINION, and a rather baseless one.
Esdraelon, thank you for that
@Esdraelon:
You doth protest too much.
Certainly, you can’t deny that there are a great many true believers in false faiths. Giving Camping the benefit of doubt, he was simply just another true believer in a false faith.
Likewise, you can’t deny that there are a great many false believers in whatever you profess to be your own true faith. These would be people who don’t believe it it themselves, but who none-the-less profess not only to believe, but to become a (paid) leader of others who truly do believe. Throughout the history of all religions, including Christianity, there have been false believers who became rich at the expense of true believers.
I was also simply making the point that the main difference between Camping and all of the above examples is that Camping actually subjected his preachings to an antemortem, black and white test, while all of the others preach of things which are untestable, in this life before death.
I made no comment at all concerning true believers in a true faith.
- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the SINGLE Scripture used to justify THE RAPTURE by false doctrine. Based on Scripture, you cannot make a doctrine on a SINGLE Scripture. The word RAPTURE does not appear in the text of any translation of the Bible, in any language.
“CAUGHT UP” are the words used by many when referring to THE RAPTURE. King James must have missed this one because the words “CAUGHT UP” are not found in the Young’s Concordance for 1 Thessalonians 4:17. However, “CATCH” is listed under that Scripture. That word appears 13 times, and is translated six different ways: catch, catch away, catch (caught) up, pluck and take by force. In the 12 other Scriptures, it has nothing to do with the physical removal of living people from the earth/world to heaven.
Also in THE RAPTURE CHAPTER, 1 Thessalonians 4:17, is to meet the lord IN THE AIR. According to the Strong’s and Young’s concordance, “AIR” is the Greek word “AER”, as used in the following Scriptures:
Acts 22:23, …and threw dust into the air (AER).
1 Corinthians 9:26, …not as one who beateth the air (AER).
1 Corinthians 14:9, …for ye shall speak in the air (AER).
Another Greek word which is also translated, AIR, in the KJV of the Bible is OURANOS. That translation is found in Matthew 6:26, 8:20, 13:32; Mark 4:4 and 32; Luke 8:5, 9:58, 13:19 and Acts 10:12, 11:6. Each one of these Scriptures refer to “the birds/fowls of the air (ouranos).
Grab a handful of dirt and throw it into the air. That’s about where you would be hanging IF there were to be a RAPTURE, based on the recorded meaning of the word AIR.
Next we have the phrase “with them in the CLOUDS”. If you look outside, you can see the clouds WAY UP there. BUT, is that what the Scripture means? No.
In the following Scriptures, the CLOUD came DOWN to earth:
Matthew 17:5; Mark 9:7; Luke 9:34
In 1Corinthians 10:1,2, they were UNDER the CLOUD, and were baptized IN the CLOUD.
Hebrews 11:36 through 12:2 talks about SO GREAT A CLOUD OF WITNESSES.
With all of the above, let us read 1 Thessalonians 4, beginning at verse 13, with a much more accurate and clearer understanding of the words and terms used therein. For clarity, the following Scripture quotes from 1 Thessalonians are in capital letters.
“BUT I WOULD NOT HAVE YOU IGNORANT, BRETHREN, CONCERNING THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP (this Scripture is primarily about the departed/dead saints in Christ) THAT YE SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS WHICH HAVE NO HOPE (the Sadducees did not believe in a resurrection). FOR IF WE BELIEVE THAT JESUS DIED AND ROSE AGAIN (we all believe that), EVEN SO (in like manner) THEM ALSO WHICH SLEEP (are dead) IN JESUS WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM (Jesus). FOR THIS WE SAY UNTO YOU BY THE WORD OF THE LORD, THAT WE (Biblical believers) WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN (on earth) UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD SHALL NOT PREVENT (precede) (have any advantage over) THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP. FOR THE LORD HIMSELF SHALL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN (Acts 1:11, Jesus went directly from earth to Heaven and shall return “in like manner” directly from Heaven to earth. No rapture back to heaven for a later third coming!) WITH A SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, AND THE TRUMP(et) OF GOD: AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE (Greek word, anistemi: to set up or be resurrected) FIRST: THEN WE WHO ARE ALIVE (“We shall not all die, but shall be changed/transformed/transfigured” (1 Cor 15:51) AND REMAIN (on the earth in the “aer”) SHALL BE CAUGHT UP (made one) (harpazo) TOGETHER (at the same time) WITH THEM (the dead in Christ) IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR (the “great cloud of witnesses” that will “be made perfect” with us on earth when Jesus brings their spirits “with Him” to be united with their bodies resurrected out of the ground “first” into the air [aer] with us in the air, on the surface of the earth): AND SO SHALL WE (for) EVER BE WITH THE LORD (in the air [aer] here ON earth forever). WHEREFORE, COMFORT (reassure) ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDS.” (Notice, the Lord “descended from Heaven” before we are “caught up” to Him; just as the “New Jerusalem” came down to dwell with us–Rev. 21:2.)
@Zac:
May I asked where you copied and pasted this from, however, I agree that doctrine should not be based upon a single verse, and I also tend to take the view that the rapture as it is believed is very questionable.
There are a couple of other verses, though.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.”
1 Corinthians 15:20-23, “But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming.”
1 Cor. 15:51-52, “Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.”
Actually I don’t see where the last verse coincides with that of the Revelation where it is clearly pointed out that Christ will come to the earth at the final battle to set up his kingdom afterward. There will come a time where there is the ‘last trump’, but there is no mention of this other than the White Throne judgments at some time beyond that.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
I tend to do that at times.
Of course, the world has plenty of wolves in sheep’s clothing, of that I don’t disagree.
It depends on what you imply is a ‘false’ religion, or simply a ‘perversion’ of a ‘true’ religion. It takes very little to make such accusations, certainly not the intelligence of a rocket scientist.
Such was prevalent even back in the times of Christ: Mark 8:36- “For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?”
They have their reward….
Certainly Esd, I was going to rewrite it but unfortunately ran out of time. I was hoping to get a few more responses before this thread becomes obsolete and I proved no one would likely get my five dollars. Of course even if the thes scripture is a proven “rapture” scripture there is a lot to refute the pre tribulation rapture in other scripture but I’m out of time, be back later.
http://www.demonbuster.com/rapture.html
@Zac:
Thanks, Zac, actually I am not making a defense, simply pointing out where the doctrine comes from.
Per your link, the first thing I like to do on links is to find out Who Posted It, who they are, what they believe, what is their motive, etc, etc. Demonbuster, has some kooky stuff of their own on that site, though it can always be said that they may get some things right..
The point is, I approach the whole matter is if there will Not be a rapture. If there is, fine, if not, won’t make any difference other than to very drastically test my faith in the times coming. In many ways, I look forward to that….is my faith ‘real’ or is it a ‘crutch’? Somethings we get a ‘Revelation’…
Zac, It could be interpreted as ALIENS which have been HUMAN and died and became alliens by having been transfigured will come from the air, with JESUS which is the SON OF GOD THE CREATOR OF ALL WHICH IS ON EARTH AND IN THE AIR, LIKE OTHER STARS AND PLANET MULTIPLE DIFFRENT OTHER PLACE WHERE THE DEADS OF THE EARTH COULD HAVE END UP AND ABLE TO LIVE WITHOUT
THEIR HUMAN BODYS, WILL BE SUMMONS BY THE MASTER, JESUS TO COME DOWN TO BE HELPING THE HUMANS TO SOLVE THEIR PROBLEMS HAVING BEEN IN THOSE OTHER PLACES AND ACQUIRED THE STAGE OF TOTAL PERFECTION FROM BEINGS FROM HIGHER DEGREES OF KNOWLEDGE
JUST THINKING, AH YES I wanted to mention of the BEAST TO BE CAST OUT
WITH HIS FOLLOWERS IN THE FIRE IN A BIG BATTLE
Bees I think that’s is the best and most creative explanation I’ve heard. aliens are pretty cool, so are dinosaurs, both make for a great Stephen Spielberg movie and both possibly can be used to decipher certain bible verse. Truthfully when I read a bible verse in such old english I nearly get a headache trying to understand it.
If you can read this…YOU ARE STILL HERE!
I was tempted to go and lay some of my clothing outside my front door. Thought it would be funny.
I’m considering starting a myth about reverse rapture. It’s where your clothes (and your soul) go to hell and your dead naked body is left here.
Here’s one from the what if paranoia department. What if the number of people “raptured” is so small we don’t know it actually happened?
Zac, thank you, but I was just outstage by Hard Right,’s comment
darn
@Larry
Aren’t all religions fake? At least what evidence do we have that a single one of them is true? The bigger religions at least have the sense to make vague predictions without naming specific dates that are going to happen in our lifetime.
Two albums I bought at the ”End of the World” sale were somewhat spiritual.
One was a George Harrison album, you know, with sitars and My Sweet Lord on it.
The other was a Yes album, Tales from Topographic Oceans.
Just listened to that again for the first time in over 20 years.
Seems when my music tastes turn to spiritual at all, they lean Eastward.
Just a couple minutes ago, I had a sudden blackout and when I awoke I saw a bright light, many bright lights as if to say “come to me my son”. There was a feeling like rain, rain from heaven above, I could feel it dripping across my numb body. I could not even remember what I was doing when it happened. Euphoria! I knew I had been raptured! I was going on to be with the lord. Then the pain set in… Turns out I had not been raptured at all but slipped in the shower and momentarily knocked myself out.
Zac, you cannot go on slipping to many times more,
the shower is a worse place to enter to paradise, because getting in nude will not be well received
by ANGELIC beings
If I get to heaven and have to stand before the lord and speak for all the sins I’ve committed I would like to be in a tuxedo or something spiffy, as I have some things to answer for and I think looking good will help.
That’s a healthy concern to have Bees. I certainly will be mindful of what I’m wearing in the future, if I feel I’m about to kick the bucket. I would not want G-d to think I was sent to the wrong place. Or yell out to an angel “hey you! Get over here and get some clothes on this boy. Jesus this kid is ugly! No, no, not you jesus, I mean the kid.” Then look to me and say “did I invent you? Uhh sorry about that mole, I’m sure now that your dead and naked we can have somebody fix that. Awkward…”
Zac can you forsee the angels broohaha, pushing to get in front to get the job done properly
@gaffa (#44). I’d recommend Vincent Bugliosi’s “Divinity of Doubt.” He’s not a believer, but he carefully examines the arguments made in prominent books about atheism and finds assertions of atheism to be — objectively — as indefensible as assertions of the truth of any specific organized religion.
In my youth, my grandmother sent me to a Baptist summer camp and, a couple of years later, I had a “born again” experience, which was as true to me as anyone else’s. It stayed with me for years, but gradually faded away, after I reached adulthood. But it’s something about which I’ve always had intense interest.
As an almost senior citizen, and fallen away born againer, here’s what I’ve decided.
There is so much about the universe that we don’t know — literally. We do know that most of the universe is made up of dark matter and dark energy. We know that string theory posits multiple dimensions beyond the four dimensions we are capable of perceiving. What comprises that matter? What is in that energy? What is in those dimensions? As humans, we can’t understand what is beyond infinity and what was before the beginning. There is so much that we don’t know, that it’s arrogant to conclude that all religions are wrong and that there is no possibility that what is called God doesn’t exist.
As a physician, I’m interested in studies relating to health and longevity. It’s interesting that objective research has shown that people who define themselves as being “spiritual” live, on the average, 2 years longer than those who define themselves as not being “spiritual.” If we were to cure all forms of cancer today, average life expectancy would only improve by 2 years. So being “spiritual” provides as much of a health benefit as being immune from cancer.
I continue to pray, and each and every prayer I say gets answered. I only say two types of prayers, however. The first is “thank you” — most frequently thank you for my wife (the best person currently living on this planet). I never say “thank you” in a way to curry future favors. Just out of a sense of genuine gratitude. The second prayer is “give me strength,” as in “give me strength to do what I know to be the right thing.” This prayer has always been answered. If and when it ever fails me, it will forever be worthless to me, and I can’t take that chance — the prayer is too important to me ever to lose it.
Beyond that, I don’t let myself ever disrespect any religion which does not do evil nor advocate evil. I don’t know enough to know that the unprovable is wrong or if it is right. It’s a matter of faith, and, though I may lack that faith, that doesn’t mean that those who have that faith are wrong. It’s ultimately unknowable, and I despise certitude in virtually all forms.
- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
Hey Folks!
Well, I just got back recently from the Rapture. It was awesome! But after only a few hours into it, I realized “Oh crap! I haven’t done the Sunday Funnies yet!”
So I came back to be amongst the 97 per centers left behind.
You’re welcome.
openid.aol.com/runnswim, that is what I call WORDS OF WISDOM,
AND I will tease you by saying It’s certainty,
bye
I agree with Bees Larry, “great words of wisdom.”
@Ariel…
ummm… You use the Latin Vulgate that is nearly 500 years after the fact. Yep, Rapture is so accurate. lol
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
Funny how you think that about your wife, and yet, I believe that about mine as well. I’m pretty sure that I’d be worse off than I am right now, if not for her influence.
As for religion, many people wonder how I can be a person of religious “faith”, and yet also an admirer of Ayn Rand’s, even going so far as to use one of her characters(perhaps her most famous one), as my ‘handle’ here on FA. The answer really is simple. I’ve seen, and experienced, a number of wonderful, unexplainable happenings in my life, at this point, to disbelieve that there isn’t some being out there responsible for them.
Another point on religion( And probably the most poignant revelation I have had); If not for a supreme being, responsible for all of the wonder, majesty, and beauty within our world, and the universe, then why are we here? It is simply too hard for me to believe that everything we can see and experience was created by a ball of plasma energy, just because. How did that ball of plasma energy get there? How is it that it resulted in the beings(animals and men) that are on the earth today, with all of the beautiful plant life, and all of it working in near perfect concert to allow for life to happen? It can be an overwhelming experience just thinking about it, when you consider that without a supreme, intelligent being, responsible for everything that has happened, and will happen, in this world, and the universe, that the question of Why? cannot be answered.
Anyway, your post was a pretty good one, that I mostly agree with, with only one, small disagreement.
I have a problem with that statement, due to the fact that there is certitude in nearly everything, and that unless there is, there wouldn’t be the ability to learn knowledge. There wouldn’t be a black, nor a white, but everything in varying shades of gray. No right, nor wrong, but only varying degrees of rightness or wrongness. Reason doesn’t allow me to accept partially right, or partially wrong, as acceptable. Just a thought.
Great post John. I also agree with you (in regards to Larry’s response), that certitude is not only NOT dangerous, but at least in terms of morality/(as in Judeo Christianity, a necessary standard, based on the teachings of Christ/God, absolutely NECESSARY. Without moral certitude (of which there can’t be any sans Judeo Christian standards), we sink to a culture/lifestyle of moral relativism, where absolutely anything can be justified. In fairness to Larry, if he doens’t believe in the teachings of Christ (at least, “hook, line, and sinker”, it would make sense as to why he has a problem with certitude. The paradox of course, is that faith itself brings the certitude, or “proof” as some might call it; like romatic love, one just can’t explain it, only confirm that it’s real.
(Note to Larry) In point of fact, Larry, you invalidate your ‘certitude’ argument by your “certitude” of your gratitude for your wife, because I happen to know, you are SURE of what you write of her). Could you honestly say you are “not sure” that you love her?
In the “man made”, including the life sciences, I tend to agree with Larry that absolute certitude can be a bit dangerous, as unlike Divine Revelaton that ended with the death of the last apostle, “life” around us continues to unfold.
Glad to know you too think highly of your wife John. IMO, few words are more impressive to me from a man’s mouth than one who extrols his wife. My dad used to always tell us as kids that “The greatest gift a father can give to his kids is to love their mother.” Ok, I’m biased, but very lucky to have grown up with a father that was madly in love with my mother until his last breath.
As for Ayn Rand, I too fail to see the compatibility with Christianity, as the women was totally devoid of love, except for herself and money. At it’s core, Objectivism is purely anti-Christian.
Patricia, I like the point about love certitude, I believe it to be very good proof on certitude, and of course the certitude doesn’t apply to all facts spoken or salespeople or all religions including their representatives, but for one to earn the NAME that means a right person to be believe is a treasure
for they can fight the devil himself.
Dr. Larry – Your # 50 was beautiful. Thanks.
@Patricia:
Not quite, Patricia. Rand’s view of love was such that she believed the highest compliment, or honor, that one could give to another was their desire to interact with them. For two people engaging in trade, the fact that one desired to trade with another, showed the magnitude of their respect for that person. The same idea happens in love. The fact that I wish to spend time with my wife, engaging with her in all manner of actions, pleasurable to straight conversation, and from the high standards that I set, to do so, shows the depth of my love for her.
As for money, it is merely a symbol of one’s success. And why live, other than to achieve success, with money being one standard, or symbol, of one aspect, of a person’s success in life? It isn’t the love for money, which many people mistakenly get from her books, but the love of success, that drives the characters she has created.
I do not wish to get into a theological discussion, however, I believe that Objectivism is not anti-Christian, and that instead, it is somewhat mutually compatible with Christianity. I didn’t go quite far enough, in my comments above, but when one uses reason, in terms of religious belief, neither did Ms. Rand. She didn’t go so far as to ascertain the reason of “Why?”, as in, “Why are we here?”. If she had, she would have found that an atheistic view does not answer that question any better than one from a religious standpoint, and that to view an answer to that question, from atheism, takes just as much faith as it does if one answers from a religious view. Hence, it is one aspect that Objectivism, or the use of reason, fails to answer, and that man must, therefore, rely on faith, for whatever answer one decides. Of course, one could simply fail to answer, and assume it an unanswerable question, giving neither atheism, or religion, weight over the other, but rather, stand on the assumption that it could be either, and that only the lack of knowledge required, in order to answer it, is the reason for it to remain unanswered.
Also, and this does get into a bit of theological discussion, I don’t believe the bible to be an accurate representation of the words of Jesus Christ, as it was written by fallible man, most notably a Roman emperor, in response to an attempt to unify Rome’s subjects under a common religious banner. I believe in a God. I believe that Jesus was the son of God. I do not, however, believe that his words and teachings are accurately portrayed within the Bible. Just my thoughts.
John I respectfully disagree with most of your last post.
For starters, Ayn Ryan is not only anti-Christian, she’s the antithesis of Christianity, including her ability to dupe many of the Judeo/Christian faith. After your post, for the sake of time, I did a quick internet search to find an article that shares my reasons. I found this one by Chuck Colsen. Here’s an excerpt:
As for money being the bellwether of success, really? Lots of rich folks are miserable (just look at Hollywood), while most poor folks (providing they have basic needs met), are consistently happier than most. Unless your definition of “success” is money sans happiness, that’s truly an absurd statement John. On the other hand, nothing wrong with money in we don’t make the money our god. It’s the attachment to money, and or the false expectation that it WILL bring happiness, that leads to misery, not the money per se. By the way, wasn’t Ayn Rand’s coffin covered in dollar bills? Just askin’!
As for the bible being the “words of Christ”, they aren’t, but they are inspired by Christ. It’s only been in the last 200 years, with the invention of “sola scripture” that the “bible alone”, camp started. Consequently, there are now about 5000 different Protestant denominations all with different intrepretations, which means 4999 have to be wrong. Actually, they are all wrong, while each probably containing some truth.
The reason they are all wrong is that the bible was never meant to be the single source. It came from the Catholic Church (little know fact, the Catholic Church preceeded the Bible, which was the “mass book’).
Divine Revelation includes , none being able to stand alone, Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scriptures, and Teaching Authority ordained by Christ, the Catholic Church (Magesterium). The point being, Divine Revelation requires all three, including the Living Authority (Magesterium), the Holy Spirit. Without it, you end up with “5,000 erroneous intrepretations”, and almost always incorrectly taken out of context or not in the proper historical prespective.
Say what you will about the Catholic Church. Many in it may be corrupt, but the church teachings are rock solid and no dogmas (instituted by Christ), have ever changed in 2000 years. In reality, the Catholic church is the “keeper” per se of the original teachings of Christ. One may honestly despise many sinners within the church, but that still doesn’t do a thing to negate the core teachings of the church, except to say some within have fallen from grace. Interesting as well, the Holy Spirit vowed to protect the Church until the end of time. Despite heretics, a few even having been early popes, it’s fascinating that NONE of the heretics ever declared dogma or changed dogma.
Lastly, one great example as to why we need the “instruction guide (the Catholic Church/Holy Spirit), is false intrepretations like May 21st raptures!
Patricia, hi, your comments are always good and cause for reflexion,
one thing that I would resist to, is that because I as a person can decide to read any other books even if they are not in line as their views on CHRISTIAN TEACHING,
because I am free to decide what is the diffrence of view inside the AUTHOR’S NOTES,
and I find some very diffrent quotes that where interresting in some of those books to retain
as good thoughs for the real world everyday explanation, even if I rejected the core belief of the AUTHOR as a atheist, or some other thought he was leaning on; and I found that it gave me more assurance to stick to my own belief than to join in theirs,
but to have read it was good to know how they view theirs, and why, what make them think that way,
@Patricia:
That is not what I said. I said that money is nothing more than a symbol, a standard, of just one aspect of a person’s life. I agree that there are those who have gained mega-amounts of money, and are completely unhappy, but one has to look at the reasons those persons gained that money, to understand that in their case, the money they have doesn’t represent success, so much as it represents what they have taken.
I completely agree with this statement, if you can believe it.
Even in Atlas Shrugged, where Hank Rearden first states that his “only goal is to make money”, he later learns that it isn’t the money itself that he desires, but the true ownership, by his own hard work, intellect, and ingenuity, of the fruits of his labors. James Taggart, and others, too are concerned with money, however, the difference is that they are only concerned with how much they can take, and thus, are not happy when they do gain it. This is an important distinction to make, and one you are not doing. Again, it isn’t the money itself, but the recognition that one has gained that money by their own labors, that makes money a symbol of success. For those who gain money by underhanded, thieving, and generally without their own labors involved, that money becomes a symbol of their own failures at achieving success.
Interesting reading on your talk of the bible, it’s interpretations, and the Catholic Church. I’ve never claimed that all, any, some, or certain, passages, books, etc. contained within the bible are wrong.
I still disagree that Objectivism, which I do not practice, completely, as my philosophy, and Christianity are mutually exclusive. Indeed, the teachings of Rand, concerning government in citizens’ lives dovetails neatly with that of our founding fathers, of whom many were practicing Christians. The one sticking point seems to be that Rand has promoted Atheism, and that fact is what turns many Christians off to her other philosophical points concerning life. She wasn’t evil. She just didn’t believe in God.
Another point about Rand. She claims many of her philosophical viewpoints originated from Aristotle, although she faults him at times. As well, she studied the Catholic Saint, Thomas Aquinnas, and his works. St. Thomas was also a student of Aristotlian philosophy, who did seek to combine Reason and Faith into philosophical viewpoints, rather than accept their mutual exclusivity, as many of his contemporaries did, be they philosophers of reason, or followers of faith.
And, as I stated above, in my opinion, Rand didn’t go far enough in her quest for reason, concerning God and religion. I do not espouse her every philosophical viewpoint, and cannot, as I do not agree with them all. However, their are many though, which, as I stated above as well, dovetail with the viewpoints of our founding fathers, and as such, should not be rejected, simply because the woman was an atheist.
I didn’t want to get into a theological discussion, particularly where Rand is concerned, because it never turns out well, for either side of the discussion. Simply put, I do not reject your religious viewpoints, and indeed, agree with much of it, despite my admiration for a woman that was a devout atheist. I would state a similar statement to an Objectivist, that I do not reject their philosophical viewpoints, and indeed, agree with much of it, despite my faith in God and Jesus.
Thank you for your reply, though, as it gives me more to learn and study.
@Larry
Sounds interesting – I’ll have to read it after I’ve finished reading Keith Richard’s autobiography. Although I find it hard to believe that objectively he finds/believes that arguments from atheists are as indefensible as those from religions as there are have been big whopping holes in the various myths we have be fed.
How did that born again experience manifest itself?
Is it arrogant? Those things which are wonderous are being discovered by science and not religion. There are many things we didn’t know for centuries – such as what caused rainbows, lightning etc and now we know. What we have yet to fully discover we tend to automatically fill in with a creator.
I’ll have to look into that – sounds interesting. But I couldn’t believe in something which is likely to be false so I get the benefits of a placebo effect. I suspect individuals who believe in positive thinking as I do can equally benefit – without buying in a whole mythology. Do you take the red pill or the blue pill?
Whatever works for you is very important. However haven’t they done tests on this and prayer doesn’t work? How does a God pick and choose who’s prayers get answered? What happened tohttp://news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/04.06/05-prayer.html
I am quite happy to be skeptical and disrespect of religion like I am of political parties. Religions have shown little or no respect to the religions and to non-believers. A lot of us are brought up in monoculture where the dominate religion is not critically questioned so as a kid who just accept it as the truth. Rather as kids in the classroom at least (parents are still going to bring their kids upin their religion) kids should be shown the variety of religions AND agnostic and atheism movements. However I call myself at this point an agnostic/borderline atheist because I still can’t get my head around what happened before the Big Bang and what caused it. Science hasn’t given me a satisfying answer (but then again the sub-atomic is baffling). BUT I don’t fill this gap in with God. I see no evidence of a God. Having a possibilty of God creates more questions than answers. I do believe that any living person who claims to know is a charlatan.
Gaffa UK, YES you are expexted to make a statement on the one who beleive in GOD,
AS YOU SAY ARE CHARLATAN, this show how ignorant you are, of the spirit of human being,
how to dwell inside that SPIRIT is important to elevate one over another,
and how IT’S importance play a role in a well balance mind to be able to render accuate judgements on every level of deceitfull statement made by people of your like, and how it’s so helpfull to perceive the lyer and fraudulent self adoring people.
see what you are lacking of and will never achieve to get to a higher degree of thinking,
that is why you’re arrogance help you falsely to come here and find some tolerance people to spend time on educating you which is a waste of time they freely give you undersed selfish persona,
YOU HAVE BEEN UNCOVERED A LONG TIME AGO
@gaffa: Here are two reasonably comprehensive reviews in the peer-review medical literature:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19142047
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12058703
http://www.theannals.com/cgi/reprint/36/6/1090.pdf
Some excerpts:
The distinction between a positive effect of religiosity/spirituality on health and longevity in a baseline healthy population versus baseline diseased population is consistent with the famous prayer/intervention study you quoted. In the latter, there was a randomization (if memory serves — no more time to look it up right now) between (1) no prayers for recovery, (2) prayers for recovery with notification of patient being prayed for that he was receiving such prayers, and (3) prayers without notification. There was no difference between outcomes in patients who received no prayers and patients who received prayers without knowing they were receiving prayers. But the group that received prayers and were told that people were praying for them actually did significanty worse.
I think that the reason patients may do worse when people tell them they are praying for them is that they more or less get freaked out that they are in such a bad state of affairs to require divine intervention. So this increases their stress levels, decreases their immune function and what all, and they do worse. I conclude that it’s not a good idea to tell people that you are praying for them — it’s more of an anxiety elevator than something which helps.
Whatever the mechanisms, many, many studies have shown objective benefits to being religious and/or spiritual when it comes to long term health and longevity. The magnitude of aggregate benefit, as I stated, was equivalent to that of taking a hypothetical vaccine to permanently immunize against cancer. I consider religion to be a huge net positive for humanity, notwithstanding the obvious harm that it does, in certain ways. It’s sort of like the automobile — net benefit, despite the carnage.
- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
I’m sure some of you might be aware that pro-wrestler “Macho Man” Randy Savage died in a car accident on Friday. I just saw the following comment on a YouTube video by a fan of his:
“Macho Man’s ascension averted the rapture! Thank you Macho Man!”
Anyone know if Camping’s been interviewed post-Rapture and what he has to say about the anti-climactic beginning of the end?
From now until Oct 21st, we’re also supposed to be experiencing plagues, pestilence, earthquakes, tornadoes, violence, etc.
So what else is new? In other words, business as usual…
Answer to my own question.
And this is just pathetic:
Wordsmith, sorry for that sportman to dye on a car accident,
CHANGING SUBJECTS, I am now watching 2 black birds, on a branch, they are not crows but smaller and jetblack, I’M pretty sure they are a couple, and Now you have to take my word on it,
that one is blond head, I never seen those birds with blond hair before , very odd looking too.
bye
Zac, on your 48, that was funny,
you made us laugh, you made us think, you made us admire your smart comment, AND YOU DISAPEAR, TRAINING NOW?
NOW, WHERE THE H… ARE YOU,
GET YOURSELF HERE ON THE DOUBLE
TAKE CARE WE LIKE YOU