…he has essentially denounced as evil and misguided, though in a lukewarm fashion, decades of American policy in the Middle East. Second, he has delegitimized Israel, at least within the context of its current borders. Third, he has by implication suggested that the rule of many of his allies is undemocratic and in consequence, declared himself King of Arabia. He has assumed ultimate responsibility for the political development of the region now. He’s declared it broken. Now he owns it.
See author page
@blast: You said:
So you are saying that the muslims in 1801 needed no provocation to attack western countries, but today if we would only leave Israel to stand on its own then the muslims would stop attacking us?
You think that there was some reformation of Islam between 1801 and present day? I’m sorry, but when did that occur?
Or are you really so stupid that you cannot fathom the fact that I presented facts to you which shows that nothing we do or don’t do has any bearing on whether muslims attack us?
Just answer any ONE of the above four questions.
Or are you just going to call it “stupid?”
Obama is adding to his walk back of his disastrous speeches on Israel and the peace process….I wrote of how he had a spokesman do his walk back here:
@Nan G:
Now Obama, himself, has said this:
Read more
WELL,……DUH!!!!!!
That’s what we’ve been saying for days!
Obama also walked back his demand that a ”right of return” must be imposed on Israel, allowing the entry of perhaps 8 million of the original people and their children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren.
Obama added:
Total 180.
I wonder if the media will just pretend it didn’t happen?
In the Newspeak book, 1984, George Orwell had Big Brother change wars in the middle of one day without the media even noting it. The headline went from, “We have always been at war with Eurasia,” to “We have always been at war with Oceania.”
Is Obama’s media THAT compliant?
The source here is the Daily Caller, a web news site.
MORE walk back by Obama in an Israeli newspaper:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/obama-the-un-can-t-give-the-palestinians-a-state-1.364010
@anticsrocks
Kooks will attack for whatever crazy reasons they might have, and kooks have always run to religion to justify their messed up world views.
Back to 1801, the USA had good relations with Muslims, in particular with Morocco, who parenthetically was the first sovereign nation to recognize the colonies as independent states 1777. The Barbary Pirates were economic raiders, they wanted money regardless to the justification.
Oh… and much has happened in the world in the past 210 years.
@blast for brains: You said:
Yes, as long as we were paying their ransom demands, when we decided to quit paying it, the relationship kinda went sour.
Captain Obvious strikes again…and this has what to do with our discussion of the reasons muslims attack us?
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@anticsrocks
Our relationship with Morocco did not go sour, and today they are a bull-work against fanatics. Our diplomatic relationship with Muslim Morocco is the longest unbroken treaty of relationship in US history.
Are you kidding? In 1800 we were a small nation with little ability to shape our destiny. Beyond that, much in human behavior has changed since 1800. If you can’t see that, we can just agree to disagree.
@ mata,
Ok, you want to be nitsy.
Mata, if you are going to present something here as a source, then you are responsible to correct the inaccuracies, especially when it inflates the value of your statement (and it is pointed out). The man was not chief of Intel. And he was not in office for the time quoted. That is fact.
I do not disdain Israel. I disdain the wanton dole we dish out over 65 years and counting. Israel has a right to exist, we have a right to keep our money and reduce our deficit and get our financial house in order.
On this whole intel relationship with Israel. I dispute our need to give them money. So are you saying that if we reduce and eliminate our aid to Israel that they would stop the bilateral exchange of intel? Do you think the intel we provide them is useless?
bozo …. blast… dearie. It’s you who is “nitsy”. He was a former chief of US AF Intelligence. He was also a deputy chief of US AF Intelligence. He was also a direct of operations and an deputy assistant to the director of the Joint Chief of Staff. That they did not apply dates that suit you (and in fact didn’t include the entire span of his intelligence service) or didn’t elaborate on how many different divisions and agencies he was assigned to between 1947 and to his retirement is not my fault. Nor do I care. None of it has shit to do with the fact his bio bears out his stellar credibility on the issue, and substantiates his access to information on which he based his comment.
I repeat, your credibility dearie? None. But we are always amused at your desperation in tangents when borne out wrong. Care to argue his credentials as an informed source, or are you insistent upon leaping off of another diversionary cliff to make yourself feel good?
Tell me blast, how much intel do we give Israel? More than they give us? Who has the vast array of HUMINT in place in the Middle East for survival?
You dispute the “need to give them money” for your own personal purposes that seem to apply only to Israeli Jews. Can’t take away anything other than that from your repeated commentary here…. of which I excerpted above. That ugly side of you is your problem. Right up there with your refusal to recognize their contributions to our national security and savings in both troop presence and lives by being a nation that not only defends themselves, but aids us by doing missions like taking out Iran’s nuke facility. Not to mention Syria’s in the recent past.
I’ll tell you what is useless here… you. And now I remember why Curt banned you a year or so back.
Let’s add a bit more fuel to blast’s fire… from Global Politician, an
Apparently about 50 retired generals and admirals also disagree with your distaste for Israel as a valued asset as well, as evidenced by letter they signed and sent to both Obama and Congress.
Not enough yet, blasst? How about Army and Marine Brig. Gen. Michael Vane, Deputy Chief of Staff at the US Army’s TRADOC, noting that it was IDF who did the training for the Army and Marines who won the battles of Fallujah and Mosul? They not only trained in the Negev desert at an Israeli urban warfare facility, Israeli commandos were training US forces at Fort Bragg in 2003.
We also learned successful interrogation methods from the Israelis as well (I’m sure you’ll come back with some snide comment about torture…..). Physical punishment is banned in Israel.
It seems Israel was written all over US urban warfare techniques in Iraq – from training to roadblocks and to techniques for tracking using UAVs.
@blast:
The point is, that have derided the U.S. giving aid to Israel, and the only arguments that you present, in support of that, is that you believe the U.S. receives very little for that aid, and that you believe it is “open-ended” aid, or aid, “without an end in sight”. We have presented some, of the many, benefits that the U.S. receives from Israel, although not necessarily directly due to the aid we give them. You perceive those benefits as negligible. Fine. At least you have somewhat stated a standard, concerning the reciprocal benefit the U.S. should receive for monetary aid given. Yet, you have also stated that some aid, for other countries, you would continue to provide, but you haven’t shown that we receive greater benefit for the aid we give them, than we do Israel. So, your standard seems to be somewhat arbitrary. That is why I ask you to present cases of other countries we give aid to, and the benefit we receive from them. So that we have some standard on which to compare Israel with those other countries, and then be able to derive judgment, within our own reason, on whether or not you are right about what you claim.
Bad example. We provide funding already for such threat, by way of the World Health Organization, a sub-agency of the United Nations.
The point is that you must be consistent in your standards, whether you are for giving aid somewhat freely, or limited aid, or, as I advocate, none at all, at least to specific countries.
While people debate the pros and cons of the relationship the USA has had with Israel before now, the Muslim Brotherhood has influenced the military in Egypt enough to break the Gaza blockade.
The Rafah crossing between Egypt and Gaza will now be open from 9am to 9 pm 6 days a week other than holidays.
Now Israel cannot stop major arms shipments and jihadists from getting through to Hamas (the Palestinian branch of the Brotherhood).
Oddly, it was Hamas who closed their border crossings when they realized how many Gazans wanted OUT in 2008.
I think it was the Hajj time and there were thousands of Gazans who were planning to go on their once-in-a-lifetime pilgrimage…..but Hamas feared too many of them would never come back.
Sort of like East Germany and the other Iron Curtain slaves.
So, we’ll see if Hamas really allows their own people to ingress and egress or if it is just a sham.
The Hamas used their all-or-nothing ploy to justify their prevention of Gazans from leaving for the Hajj.
If the Saudis didn’t allow ALL Gazans in for Hajj (including many on the Saudi terror watch list) then no one could go.
Of course, the Saudis let all of the West Bank pilgrims come.
So, something else was up.
@blast for brains: You said:
I believe the term you are looking for is “bullwark.”
Not sure it works in your sentence, but none the less, there you go.
Now as to your assertion about Morocco:
As I said, our relationship with these states was workable until President Jefferson decided that enough was enough and we went to war.
You then said:
Okay, first of all we WERE a small nation, but the Barbary Wars served notice on the world that America could and would defend her interests.
Secondly, we weren’t talking about human nature, we were talking about muslim fanatacism and I showed that the Barbary pirates and the subsequent discussion between President Jefferson and the Tripoli Ambassador demonstrates the radical way of thinking shared by all muslim terrorists and that is that their religion teaches them to kill infidels. You were making the point, but have since dropped it, that if we were to just leave Israel to fend for itself the muslim terrorists would have no reason, or “blow back” to attacks us.
As far as agreeing to disagree, I will agree that you are unable to pick one topic and stick to it; particularly when you are losing the argument. lol
blast, you make an assertion and then when called on it, you dissemble and try to change the topic.
Bad form, old man.
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@anticsrocks
You need to learn history and not just google talking points for pleasure.
Morocco in 1777 recognized the United States, the first country to do that.
Then in 1786 Thomas Barclay negotiated Moroccan–American Treaty of Friendship and it was signed by Thomas Jefferson and John Adams (as ministers), and Muhammad III… it was ratified by the Confederation Congress in 1787 and is the LONGEST UNBROKEN TREATY WITH THE UNITED STATES.
Get your facts straight! During our war with the Barbary Pirates it did not include Morocco, the treaty predated the war by 14+ years.
Morocco’s piracy against the USA:
The four Barbary States of North Africa – Morocco, Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli – had plundered seaborne commerce for centuries.
Morocco, which in 1777 was the first independent nation to publicly recognize the United States, became in 1784 the first Barbary power to seize an American vessel after independence.
Oren, Michael B. (2005-11-03). “The Middle East and the Making of the United States, 1776 to 1815”.
Surviving by blackmail, they received great sums of money, ships, and arms yearly from foreign powers in return for allowing the foreigners to trade in African ports and sail unmolested through the Barbary waters. They demanded tribute money, seized ships, and held crews for ransom or sold them into slavery.
In the years after United States independence, American merchant ships, no longer covered by British protection, were seized by Barbary pirates and American crews were enslaved.
In 1799 the United States agreed to pay $18,000 a year in return for a promise that Tripoli-based corsairs would not molest American ships. Similar agreements were made at the time with the rulers of Morocco, Algiers, and Tunis.
In May, 1801, the United States refused to succumb to the increasing demands of the Pacha of Tripoli; in return, the Pacha declared war against the States. While Tripoli was not a strong power and little effort was necessary to watch and blockade it, the fear was that the other Barbary powers [including Morocco]would join against the United States. The United States sent naval squadrons into the Mediterranean under the slogan of “Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute!”
mata, you did not answer my question Mata, or are you just avoiding it?
You have a lot of gall Mata. “my own personal purposes”. Is it the personal purposes of Ron Paul, the highest vote getter in CPAC Presidential Straw poll, or do personal purposes accrue to me. I am not the only person on the planet against unlimited foreign aid (FOR ANY COUNTRY!!!!!!!!!!!). The only reason I don’t say no foreign aid at all to anyone, I believe there may be a need for specific and limited aid. Like now, I would not say cut off aid to Afghanistan and Iraq, because it would increase our costs militarily while still there. Once we are out, the time clock should start. No open ended aid agreements with ANYONE. My feelings about Israel are focused on because this is a post about Israel, so it would make sense.
He banned me because of the sock puppets and because I used raciest language to describe Iraqis. I had admitted to the sock puppets when the matter was raised online, and did not continue the practice. I am not here to cause trouble… I state my opinions and if attacked, I return the barb. If you don’t like my opinion, feel free to ignore it mata. No one is forcing you to cut and past volumes of talking points.
So now are you saying my opinions are now going to be squelched because you vehemently feel our spending unlimited funds on foreign aid to Israel? When you are challenged you bust a vein Mata. If I had made any error even a tiny one you would point it out… so I do the same to you when you referenced incorrect information. You often are acidic and foster that behavior here, especially with people you disagree with.
Why, blast, would I bother to answer your off the cliff tangent questions when I’m still waiting for your “exit strategy” for any country’s foreign aid?
Cut and paste “volumes of talking points”?? OMG… I see. Proving that you’re an idiot for minimizing Israel’s import to the US for our own national security by giving you data and links to military intelligence personnel superior to your emotions is a “talking point. LOL “Bust a vein”, my arse. You’re a push over because I debate with statistics and educated opinion from those who are in the “need to know status”… what you call “talking points”. You, on the other hand, come from the “voices” you hear at your keyboard.
As far as not liking your opinion, and feeling free to ignore it, well blasst. Think I’ll take ya up on that one. You’ve not contributed one iota of facts and detail to back up what appears to be a hypocritical foreign policy towards Israel. You’re genuinely a waste of time to debate. All emotion, no substance. And you may want to go back to the first comments I did in response to you, and see why they have escalated to utter disrespect for you. You brung in on yourself. tisn’t my fault.
MATA wow again, you are super, I wander what the top MILITARYS think of the COMMANDER IN CHIEF DOING IN THE HANDS OF HIS FRIENDS THE MUSLIMS COUNTRYS WHO CAN NEVER CHANGE THEIR HATE FOR AMERICA, AND BOOT ON ISRAEL THE TRUSTED FRIEND OF AMERICA.
HE IS ALL IN THE BED OF THE BROTHER HOWDY.
I bet they are thinking very hard now,
bye
@NanG
“Diplomat Thomas Barclay managed to negotiate without tribute a treaty with the emperor of Morocco, mainly because that ruler disliked the British”
(“From Colony to Superpower, US Foreign Relations Since 1776” George C. Herring, Oxford – from page 40.)
As to them seizing a ship in 1784, the pirates did. They did not recognize the flag. The question however is about the Barbary Wars, and in 1801 Morocco was not a party to war against the United States.
Here is the treaty (1786)
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/bar1786t.asp
@mata,
I think the exit strategy would be a point of discussion, the when and how is more nuanced than a larger strategy to eliminate open ended aid. See, I am open minded about reducing these dependencies. I did state that in the case of Israel I do not advocate an immediate elimination of aid.
Ok… I don’t think my question was a tangent. It is quite salient to the conversation, especially since you have spent most of your time arguing their intel is so vital. So,
I would also add… that in the broader relationship, don’t we support Israel in the United Nations and have their back in many other forums? You think that just the financial aid would cause a rupture where other parts of our relationship don’t count when it comes to intel sharing?
LOL. You are a piece of work mata. Just like Mike’s America. Very fair minded, level headed and nice.
@blast for brains: I am not the one who cuts and pastes ad infinitum without reading AND understanding what is being referenced. That honor hangs squarely with you, blast for brains.
You want to debate history? I am ready, willing and able to debate history with you. Unfortunately, you are unable to debate because every time you are proven wrong, you change the topic, dissemble or just plain ignore the facts.
You are a dolt who thinks he knows a thing or two, but when it comes down to brass tacks, you lose any debate that is on the facts.
As for your claims that we were not at war with Morocco, I believe Nan destroyed you on that point.
In case you really believe Morocco’s recognition of us in 1777, or the treaty that came later on, prohibited them from performing acts of war against the United States, you might want to reconsider.
Seems the Moroccan sultan, Sidi Muhammad was keenly interested in our War for Independence and tried repeatedly to get our attention. As Nan pointed out, by 1784 Muhammad became so frustrated that he ordered one of our ships captured, it was an American brigantine.
Still wish to debate history with me?
I didn’t think so.
@anticsrocks
I guess you can’t read (#295), or do math. 1784 is a years way from 1801… and we had a treaty in 1786… Ummm… and the first Barbary War was in 1801, when Jefferson was President… so name the ships and battles that took place between Morocco and the United States during that war? Oh, you can’t… because we were not at war with Morocco dumb dumb.
@blast for brains: Once again, you are WRONG.
You incorrectly said:
As I pointed out above, the Moroccan Sultan Muhammad ordered that ship be seized.
How does if feel to be wrong so often, blast for brains?
300!!!!! Boo-Yah!
Not bad, eh beezy?? 🙂 😀
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@blast: Mata is correct when she states you have a glaringly obvious reading comprehension problem.
Let me repeat once again, when you stated:
You are claiming that due to the treaty, Morocco took no hostile action against us.
You reinforced your point later when you said:
Refer to my post #299 in which I lay out the fact that Morocco’s Sultan ORDERED the capture of the American ship.
Additionally, if it were merely pirates that absconded that ship, and not backed by the state of Morocco, why then did the treaty signed in 1786 end all piracy by Moroccon pirates against the United States?
Maybe you ought to think before you type, blast for brains.
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anticsrocks, yey, you see them coming before they start typing,
they all have that certain TANGENTE TO THE LEFT, THEY EAT THEIR BEANS AND COME HERE ALL GAZED UP.
BYE
@ilovebeeswarzone: LOL!! I love it beezy!! “all gazed up!”
Priceless! Thank you dear, for my laugh for the evening. Sitting here in this hospital, it was nice to read your post and get my chuckle for the night.
anticsrocks you made the 3oo, you must be the only one to achieve that 300,
wow I had not focus on it, congratulation, this is a biggy, and think that I could have win it,
lol.. darn non pas moi , you seek the high notes all the time,
well you deserve this one, I would have BLAST BLAST IF HE WOULD HAVE TAKEN IT.
anticsrocks, how long you have left in there?
CURT, HI, can you send a bottle of champagne on me for having won the 300 post to anticsrocks/
Ride A Pale Horse, would you send a cyber champagne bottle too to anticsrocks
marked 300 on it,?
CURT a real bootle of champagne and a cyber one with 300 on it.
Contrary to the running off at the mouth of some around here, there is no such thing as budgetary commitments for “open ended” aid to Israel. That type of forever guarantee characterization is reserved for death and taxes.
There was a 10 year security agreement in 2007 with a suggested increase that I noted was from $3 bil to $3.1 bil annually in one of the ga’zillion links in my comments above (aka “talking points” to some). Each year this aid is presented in the POTUS budget as part of int’l affairs, and subject to Congressional approval…. assuming they’ll ever do a budget again.
That security agreement extends only until 2017 and has been approved every year by the Dem held Congressional majority. It has been presented by a President Obama this year to a GOP House and Dem Senate. Again, if they ever get around to doing a budget. Can’t even get these guys to vote on two different ones and force reconciliation.
Nothing beyond that time frame exists, and would have to be renewed with negotiations by current leadership of both countries..
Thus it is impossible – as blast continues to falsely suggest in order to hide his inconsistency – for Israel’s, or any other country’s, foreign aid to be considered “open ended”. Only the most uninformed about our appropriations process could suggest such a naive lie. In fact, for someone that wants a deadline, here’s your heads up…. there’s one every year.
At the whim of the POTUS or Congress, that aid amount can decrease, be eliminated, or escalate with events on the ground and in the region. It’s called defunding.
My suggestion to blast is that he go right ahead and gaze into his crystal ball for his “exit strategy. If nothing else, it’ll keep him and his voices busy.
But as far as I’m concerned, when he’s done gazing, he can
… talk to the hand. Frankly listening to someone give me their tarot card reading on the future status of world events – which is about as bright an idea as announcing to the enemy when you’re going to pick up your toys and leave the battlefield – isn’t worth a hill of beans, let alone bandwidth.
@ilovebeeswarzone: Hopefully I get out tomorrow (Wednesday) and get to go home to my family. My two year old daughter is a Daddy’s girl and I hear she is bouncing off the walls missing me.
Thanks for the bottle of booze!!
Bees… had me on the floor with the “gas” remark! LOL
@rocks in the head
You are either stupid or just an idiot. You are talking up 1801 and the Barbary War. Show me one instance where the United States was at war with Morocco after the Treaty of 1786/7.
YOU CAN’T!
Obviously you cannot read. I stated the historical facts. Morocco recognized the US in 1777. I agreed with you that the Moroccan pirates seized an American ship in 1784. You claim it was under orders from the Sultan, I dispute that, but in the scheme of your 1801 thesis that you have been posting CONSTANTLY you are 100% WRONG. America was at peace with Morocco in 1801. I asked for you to state the ships and battles, ANY battle between Moroccans and the United States post Treaty and you have supplied NOTHING. And for your stupid information… recognition is not the same as having a Treaty so don’t confuse my statements about 1777 and 1786… especially since I have spoon fed you the information like a 4th grader.
Now go look it up and find out you are wrong. Be sure to come back and set the record straight and also lets your minion beez know the truth too. That poor soul is having a hard time keeping up.
@ mata
LOL. 65 years on the dole and additional pre planned payments is not perpetual? LOL! That predates Medicare by… ummm… 17 years?
The fact that you’ve run off at the mouth for 20 some odd years now does not guarantee you will run off at the mouth for another 20, blast. ‘nuther tangent and mischaracterization to hide the fact that there is only a security agreement until 2017 that is up for approval, or disapproval, every year.
I suggest if you have a problem with each annual deadline that exists for what is not “open ended” aid… save in your mind… you write your Congressman. I also suggest you pick up a civics book first and read up on how our government works. Might keep you from further embarrassing yourself.
Other than that, it seems most of the legislative world, along with the military world, agrees with me that Israel is a valued asset. Which is why they approve it each year in varying amounts.
300+ comments….not a bad open thread =)
@blast for brains: I believe my post #301 lays it out quite nicely. The fact that you claim one thing and argue another when proven wrong isn’t my problem blast for brains, its yours.
Each and every time Mata or myself knock your idiotic arguments out from under you, then all you do is try and obfuscate the issue.
Nan showed you that we were at war with the Barbary states, of which Morocco was a member. I will admit that they changed their tune awfully quickly upon the actions of Commodore Preble. From the papers of President Thomas Jefferson:
From Columbia University, a source that I am sure that even a lefty drone like yourself can recognize:
What’s that?? Columbia University and a magazine published by a Saudi run oil company quoting President Thomas Jefferson BOTH state that the Sultan Sidi Muhammad ordered the attack on American ships! However you doubt it, and since you must be a higher authority than Columbia University and Saudi Aramco World and President Jefferson I guess they are wrong, huh?
So it looks like you are the one with egg on your face. Oh, and I would be careful if I were you on making ad hominem attacks on beezy. She has a wit and sense of compassion you just wouldn’t understand.
Just to wrap up, you have called me, on this thread – stupid, dumb and a 4th grader. LOL looks like you are the one that isn’t smarter than a 4th grader, even a 4th grader admits when they are wrong. Too bad you can’t, blast for brains.
You ARE entertaining, tho. I will give you that, kinda like a blind mouse in a maze – all sorts of action, but not much getting done.
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CURT, thank you, and I owe you,
A 6 minute video by British atheist, Pat Condell, about Muslims, Hamas, Jews, Israel and real hatred.
Should be a featured post IMHO.