…he has essentially denounced as evil and misguided, though in a lukewarm fashion, decades of American policy in the Middle East. Second, he has delegitimized Israel, at least within the context of its current borders. Third, he has by implication suggested that the rule of many of his allies is undemocratic and in consequence, declared himself King of Arabia. He has assumed ultimate responsibility for the political development of the region now. He’s declared it broken. Now he owns it.
Weeks ago I was looking at Obama’s actions in foreign policy and pointed out that it could be looked at more logically and coherently IF you saw him as a Muslim sympathizer rather than as a sympathizer toward traditional US values, like representative democracy.
Yes, Richard F. is correct: Obama would rather leave in place the WORST of the Muslim leaders: Khamenei and Assad.
Obama has thrown those who have records of trustworthiness under the bus: Bahrain, Saudi Arabia and the only democracy in the Middle East, Israel.
Richard F. is also correct when he points out that appeasement of Muslims only leads to the demand for MORE.
What has Hamas said in response to Obama’s speech?
Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri:
Hamas own newspaper……The Palestine Times
More, more, more!
I posted this elsewhere, but I will repeat it here:
I read obama’s speech from yesterday again this morning – he always amazes me that he seems so clueless about things. He wants the world to bend to his will…his naive ideological will…and he just simply cannot recognize the conflicts in his statements.
He talks about democracy – which our Founders viewed as inherently a bad form of government. He talks about freedom to worship but dares not castigate the Iraqis or the Egyptians for killing Christians. He talks about letting women have an equal place at the table but skips over the fact that islam will simply not allow this. He talks about how the region exports less than Switzerland yet fails to realize that because of islam they are going to be net takers and not net producers until that changes.
I will agree with him that unless the status quo changes, they will not advance. I just don’t think he is deep enough to realize his words are incendiary words for the Palestinians – though the left will argue that they are not.
When he talks of Israel and the Palestinians he says: “I recognize how hard this will be.” Yeah, I don’t think you really do. If you did, you wouldn’t be telling the Palestinians at the start that “efforts to delegitimize Israel will end in failure”, and then spend the next portion of your speech in delegitimizing Israel by telling them and the Palestinians that Israel ought to be shrunk in size and surrounded in toto by Palestine. You also wouldn’t say this and expect the Palestinians to believe it when you have, so far in your administration, shown almost the polar opposite: “As for Israel, our friendship is rooted deeply in a shared history and shared values. Our commitment to Israel’s security is unshakeable. And we will stand against attempts to single it out for criticism in international forums. ”
obama also, in my view, shows his lack of understanding of true negotiations by essentially backing Israel up to the wall but at the same time saying to the Palestinians: ” how can one negotiate with a party that has shown itself unwilling to recognize your right to exist”. THAT ought to be up front and made a condition before ANYTHING else is offered. If you were really serious about making peace between Israel and the arabs, what you should say is basically, “Look you assholes, as long as there is an America, there will be an Israel – so drop the annihilation shit and get over it. Now. Or THERE. IS. NOTHING. ELSE. TO . TALK. ABOUT. Got it?”
The left has bought into the Palestinian meme of “right of return.” They have also chosen the time frame of 1967. To look at a map of the Palestinian territory in 1967 is to show that area belonged to Jordan. But that is not what the Palestinians want, a return to being part of Jordan.
They want war. End of story. They want to drive the Jews into the sea. End of story.
But Obama seems to go along with the argument that Arabs of the Middle East simply want democracy. Nothing is farther from the truth because they are Islamic and Islam doesn’t permit freedom as we know it. My guess is Obama understands this, but his hatred for Israel will not let him admit that one simple fact.
Ask yourself this; why are we seeing such violence in the Middle East NOW? What brought it about? Why didn’t it happen three years ago? What has changed? Were the same dictators not in place three years ago? Were they not as oppressive then as they are now?
The answer is simple, really. The Muslim world recognizes weakness, the weakness they see in Obama and his anti-Israel stance. This is their opportunity to take the puppet to the woodshed. And they will do it. Obama touted the “protests” in Egypt. That should be your first clue that he is clueless. Egypt is now poised to be taken over by the Muslim Brotherhood, and that ain’t good for America.
What about Obama’s choices? Mubarak, who had signed a peace treaty with Israel, and pretty much kept the Islamofascists in check; bad and must go.
Qdaffy, who had pretty much been neutralized and also did not tolerate radical Islam; bad and must go.
Assad, who is killing his own people in the streets, who has supported terrorism, terrorists and has close alliance with Iran; well, he can stay if he does what Obama tells him. Oh, and btw, since Obama is so clueless he doesn’t realize what is really going on in Egypt and Tunisia, well we will just give them billions of American tax payer dollars so that THEY can create jobs.
Note to American Jews: welcome to the reality of what we knew before November, 2008.
@retire05: I think you are right on target!
Israel is GOD’s country. Israel will not be destroyed.
obama and the US, because we elected this person, better look out, GOD is not happy with us!
obama and his ilk need to go.
remember, Israel is GOD’s country and GOD has said that Israel will not be destroyed, however, those who try, will be destroyed.
Israel, you have my profound apologies for our president, and if I am ever elected, I will go on an Obama apology tour! That sorry SOB cannot be American!
There is NO Such Thing, as a ‘Palestinian’.
Way back on March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein. Here’s what he said:
The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism.
For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.
In fact, on the same day Arafat signed the Declaration of Principles on the White House lawn in 1993, he explained his actions on Jordan TV. Here’s what he said: “Since we cannot defeat Israel in war, we do this in stages. We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine, and establish a sovereignty there, and we use it as a springboard to take more. When the time comes, we can get the Arab nations to join us for the final blow against Israel.”
No matter how many people convince themselves that the aspirations for Palestinian statehood are genuine and the key to peace in the Middle East, they are still deceiving themselves.
In the history of the world, Palestine has never existed as a nation. The region known as Palestine was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their ancestral homeland. It was never ruled by Arabs as a separate nation.
Before the state was declared in 1948 the word ‘Palestinian’ was used by the British as the name for Jews who lived in the British controlled land. But the term was hi-jacked, just as the terrorists hi-jacked planes and buses in order to blow them up, in order to further their jihad against the Jewish state.
Again, there has never been a country called ‘Palestine’ and there is no such thing as a ‘Palestinian people’. Those Arabs came to Israel in order to prevent the establishment of the Jewish state. The British Mandate gave approximately 70% of the British land to the Arabs who established the states Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan. The Arabs who are attempting to occupy the pre-1967 borders of Israel belong in Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan and should be motivated, either monetarily or physically, to move away from the Jewish state.
Ever hear the Rolling Stones, “Time is On My Side” ? The Arabs look with glee at the championing of Barack Obama, will take what they can get now with the full expectation of more later.
‘Peace with Israel’ is not a term they admit exists.
Anyone who believes otherwise is a fool.
What Obama is doing is shocking Israel with his opening offer.
Decades of Presidential initiatives have not led to any progress in achieving a Palestinian-Israeli peace accord. The absence of such an accord contributes to Middle Eastern instability and is continually used by our enemies — from Al Qaeda to Saddam to Iran — to promote the goals of our enemies.
One reason why there has been no progress at all (and even legendary peacemaker George Mitchell just called it quits) is that the Israelis believe that time is on their side. The longer they stall, the more “settlements” are constructed and the more former Palestinian West Bank territory is annexed. There is nothing at all to motivate them to ever come to any agreement.
If Obama makes the Israelis believe that there might be a serious international movement to formally recognize a Palestinian state, with pre-1967 borders, this creates tremendous incentive for them to finally cut a deal. The Palestinians had already decided that Israeli settlements in place would probably have to stay with Israel.
In a sense, the Obama initiative actually makes it more possible, politically speaking, for the Israeli government to sell a peace treaty to the Israeli people. They can now say, look, Obama wanted us to return to pre-1967 borders, but look what we negotiated! We get to keep our settlements!
It’s a fresh idea to break up a perpetual stalemate. It’s statesmanship. It’s in the best interests of the USA, which should be Obama’s number one priority.
- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA
Esdraelon, your history of the territory is dead on. If the Palestinians want a real “right of return” they would become Jordanians. But the truth of the matter is that the area known as Palestine was considered a “Jewish” homeland by first century Romans. Arabs were then still nomades who traveled from nation to nation.
Arafat was offered by the Israelis 90% of everthing he asked for. He turned it down, because it maintained a Jewish state, Israel. Arafat was not interested in peace, he was interested in maintaining the status quo so that he, and his followers, could continue to bombard Israel, all in the name of statehood. It is a farce.
Look at Gaza. Israel offered Gaza back to the Egyptians, but the Egyptians said “Hell, no, we ain’t taken’ that mess. Those people are nuts.” and to this day, Egyptians block the entry of Gazans into Egypt. But the Marxist American press will continue to cry the plight of the Gazans, never blaming Egypt for that plight, or showing the fancy new shopping mall that was built in Gaza last year, in spite of claims that Gazans are starving to death. And the rest of Palestine; do you think Jordan wants it back? Hell, no, they are no dumber than the Egyptians.
It is my understanding that Hamas has declined Obama’s idea saying it is not enough. It will never be enough. When you teach your children to hate those of another faith, and put AK-47′s into the hands of children marching them down the street shouting “Death to Israel”, no land agreement will ever be enough.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
The ‘best interests’ of the US of A would be for Obama come down off his high horse and attend to what is going to soon be $5.00 a gallon gasoline, etc.
And if you very truly believe that a ‘peace accord’ will actually attain peace, then I got some prime property under a bridge in Brooklyn, including the bridge, that is up for sale, cheap. Like a tour? I’ll give you a price that’s a steal!
@retire05:
Thanks, retire: Here is another good link on the facts:
http://middleeastfacts.com/Articles/myth-of-the-palestinian-people.php
Apparently the Saudi King and other Muslims contributed more to the Obama campaign fund than liberal American Jews! But then, Obama was brought up on Jew/Israel hatred, so it’s a pretty natural state of affairs that he work to destroy the only nation he hates as much as the US!
Esdraelon, if openid goes in for the bridge, I will sweeten the deal with some ocean front property; in Lubbock.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim: Obama throws the entire country of Israel under the bus and you call it statesmanship??
How much statesmanship did it take for Obama to give this speech with absolutely no heads up to Netanyahu that he would be taking this stance?
That is how you treat an enemy, it is NOT how you treat an ally.
Or do you disagree with this?
.
.
Wow!
Bibi schooled Obama!
Some of it:
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu:
Jake Tapper of ABC News has more.
@anticsrocks:
Not quite. Netanyahu, with an assist from Boehner, tried to pull an end run on the President.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/20/world/middleeast/20policy.html?hp
What really surprises me is how many people in America apparently think that it’s an outrage for the President of the United States to not take his ME marching orders from a foreign head of state. This view has it that not only is it not in the interests of the United States, it’s an “insult” for our President to make American policy without Netanyahu’s input and ultimate sign-off. Even if one doesn’t agree with Obama’s strategy, I find that to be an odd stance to take.
What is in US vital national interests in Israel? Not much. We support them because of the historical nature of the Jewish people (holocaust), and the influence of the Jewish diaspora in the US, and the sense by evangelicals of the need for a Jewish homeland for the second coming.
With that all said, what has it cost the US for supporting Israel? Well, we have given direct aid of $114 Billion to Israel. That does not include the $ Billions we have had to give to Jordan, Egypt and the Palestinian authority as part of bilateral payments to support “peace”; and does not include the instability costs to our country. These costs are not sustainable. That money needs to be spent on our country, not for endless bullshit in the middle east.
@blast:
Well, I can agree with that much. I would think that the existence of Israel could depend upon God and not the largesse of the United States. However, the way Christians see it, everything belongs to God and we are simply stewards, and not good ones at that.
Tom, so what if Netanyahu wants to address Congress? Is he not the head of a state with which we are an ally? Was the head of Mexico not allowed to address Congress? You seem to have no problem with Calderon, and his anti-American speech, in front of Congress, but do have one with Netanyahu. And, according to your NYSlimes source, Obama’s speech, and consequent statements were no more than a “gotcha”. How presidential is that?
You also make the mistake thinking Obama is taking marching orders from Netanyahu. No, no, no, it is the other way around; Netanyahu is NOT going to take Israel’s marching orders from Obama. What right does Obama have to tell another sovereign nation what to do? What right does Obama have to tell Israel to put itself in a position of being destroyed by people who teach their children, in their homes and in their schools, to hate the Jews?
blast, while you whine and cry over the billions given to Israel, and other Middle Eastern nations, what has been the return? Israel share its excellent intelligence with the U.S., helping us stay safe from those terrorists who are raised in Jordan, Egypt and Palestine. Can you name any Israelis that have tried to fly planes into our buildings, or blow up Times Square or any Jew that went on a military base, on our home soil, and murdered 13 people? There is no rate of return by giving money to Islamic nations, except if you measure the rate of return in the attempts to kill Americans.
Get beyond your atheism. Israel may be Jewish. So what? Kuwait, which is another ally, is Muslim. But Israel, unlike Kuwait, is a true free nation. I can take my Bible with me when I enter Israel, I can’t do that in any Muslim nation.
I had – in the decades past – thought a ”Palestinian state” might be a great idea for one reason.
IF that state ever attacked Israel then Israel could utterly and completely annihilate it.
But these days that could never happen.
As Bibi pointed out <a href="@Nan G:”>here :
The average age of an Israeli is 29 years.
The average age of a ”Palestinian” is only 17 in Gaza, 21 in the more prosperous and peaceful West Bank.
Obama swallowed the major fallacy of the imaginary ”right of return” whole.
But Obama had help….
He spent 20 years listening to it from Rev. Wright’s mouth, from Rashid Khalid ( a teacher, writer and Obama friend who is critical of Israel. Mr. Obama spoke at the dinner, where other speakers likened Israel and Israelis to terrorists) from Israel-hater Ali Abunimah (who quoted Obama: “Hey, I’m sorry I haven’t said more about Palestine right now, but we are in a tough primary race. I’m hoping when things calm down I can be more up front……Keep up the good work!” )
It looks like Israel might get cut loose.
But will that country have the guts to utterly destroy an enemy if one attacks it like happened in 1967?
@retire05:
Spot on!
@Nan G:
That might be a good thing, Nan. The things that world leaders do in their time can either slow those four horsemen from a gallop to a trot. Obama may be setting the stage to cut Israel loose, maybe or maybe not, but should he do it, Israel will no longer be able to stand upon the good graces of the world (US) and forced finally stand upon the grace of God. He will see them through. They simply don’t accept it yet.
He did it in 1967, He will do it again. There was No Way that Israel should have been able to come back and win that war in 1967. Providence….
Sometimes, blast… you’re downright scary in your tunnel vision.
Vital interests? Intel in the hotbed of the Middle East, for one. Israeli intel is exceptional, and strategically located.
Secondly, Israel is, and has been, one of the top 20 trade partners with the US since 1985.
You throw out a figure, but don’t bother to break it down annually, or over the time we’ve had relations with them following WWI. The average is about $3 bil annually, or about $500 per each Israeli citizen. Also, that figure has moved up and down over the decades.
I might add you need to get more specific on separating economic aid, military aid and grants. Three different critters. Most of the aid is in military assistance, which isn’t a bad idea for national security purposes when you depend upon them for shared inside intel in the heart of the ME.
As the 2010 CRS report on US-Israeli relations and trade notes, their military edge in the reason is a direct result of our military aid. Also, it was our economic aid that sparked their economy, in part because of shared US-Israeli scientific cooperation.
Working with such a partner on trade and economics, as well as having shared military and strategic defense goals could not make them any more vital a foreign nation.
Apparently, when it comes to weighing the cost and benefits of Israel, you haven’t turned on the light bulb in the ol’ grey matter. And it becomes more important when you consider the insanity of Obama throwing money at a military rule Egyptian regime poised to be consumed by the Muslim Brotherhood/Salafist coalition in September.
@anticsrocks, there was no element of surprise. I did a post on the ME speech an hour before the Zero opened his trap to insert his other foot. As I pointed out in the post, Israel already had a leaked version of the substance. On the other hand, the NYTs said Obama wasn’t sure.
Two points… pay attention, Blast. 1: The NYTs “deep throats” are way inferior to Israel’s. 2: Most of Israel’s intel is dead on, which is why they are vital to our national security.
WTF? Ain’t that a leap over the Grand Canyon to no where…. This POTUS would do well to gather advisers who actually know history. Then he wouldn’t be the unmitigated and dangerous fool he is in foreign policy…. more coming on that.
NanG, don’t forget Obama’s close relationship with his Columbia professor, Edward Said, a Palestinian who was thought to have worked for Arafat as a propaganda pimp in the U.S. Said, was also a close friend of William Ayers, who is now helping organize the flotilla heading to Gaza.
@Tom: Do you remember when Obama said this?
I guess that doesn’t apply when he is talking about trying to tell Israel what to do…
Face it, our present POTUS is not very Presidential and has absolutely no notion of what it means to take the high road in any given situation.
You keep defending him and no matter what kind of an ass he makes of himself on the world stage, you can just light another candle on the alter you have to him in your living room.
@retire05:
I do recall that.
In fact, the dinner featuring keynote speaker Edward Said was where Ali Abunimah was when he took the photos of Obama and Said here.
My Obama quote from Ali A. was from that article.
Said died in 2003.
While he no longer bends Obama’s ear CNN’s Fareed Zakaria admits doing so.
A simple search of his name and the word ‘Israel’ tells you how he feels about that country.
Obama mirrored his one-sided attitude quite closely.
Nan, how telling that Obama would rely on the advise of Fareed Zakaria when he could just as easily talk to Dr. Zudhi Jasser. Jasser is a devout Muslim who believes that peace with Islam will never be possible until Islam experiences a “reformation” and the political Islam is separated from the religious Islam. Frankly, I think Jasser is wishing on a star, but I give him an A for trying. I once saw Zakaria debate Jasser and Zakaria, or course, had to rely on insults while Jasser tried to be logical.
As an avid listener of Mark Levin, I heard that the Talmud has over 800 references of Jerusalem and Zion. The Koran has none. The Mosque of Omar is built over a sacred Jewish site. What else is new?
Levin stated that the narcissist can go to Hell and Hillary should get lost. Who the hell is he to grant concessions to hypocrites who always embarrass themselves with their own rhetoric?
Lock and load, Israel. Get ready for smashing victories against insurmountable odds. No UN and concessions this time.
@retire05:
What makes you think i have a problem with it?
Where exactly did I mention Calderon? Again, where did I state I had a “problem” with anyone addressing congress?
@anticsrocks:
Perhaps instead of spreading misinformation and trying to put words in my mouth, you can elaborate on your assertion that President Obama threw Israel “under the bus”. Considering what the US has done – and continues to do – for Israel, I think we have a stake and a right to an opinion on how we might help break the impasse over the Palestinian question, the implications of which have enormous consequences for our own security as well as Israel’s. The idea that we should hand them a blank check and then basically shut-up doesn’t make too much sense to me.
On a personal level, I find Netanyahu’s petulance towards Obama frankly insulting both to the President and all US citizens by proxy. Furthemore, trying to run behind the President’s back and hamstring a US foreign policy initiative is hardly helpful or a sign of good faith on his part.
Obama’s White House announced his speech on May 14th.
Netanyahu was INVITED by House Speaker John Boehner to speak on Thurs April 14th.
Earlier that same week, Hillary said Obama would lay out U.S. policy toward the Middle East.
So, there was NO LEAK, as the NYTimes implies in Tom’s quote at his #16.
LOL!
(Not a SHILL for Obama, is the NYTimes, no Siree!)
In point of fact, Netanyahu was planning his visit to DC before even that!
@retire05:
Retiro5, I just adore Dr. Zudhi Jasser.
He is brave to make his views known in public.
Only in the West could he do so and still be breathing.
Arabic lesson:
There is no ”peace” with either unbelievers or Israel in Islam.
There are only TEMPORARY ceasefires, truces, treaties.
According to the teachings of all sects of Islam, a ”HUDNA” is only a TEMPORARY ceasefire, no longer than 10 years maximum.
And the purpose of a HUDNA is to allow the Muslim side to RE-ARM to begin fighting again at an advantage.
With that in mind be sure to read all of this.
EXCERPTS:
Hamas co-founder Mahmoud Zahar:
………..
(Zahar used HUDNA when he said ”truce.”)
@Nan G:
Wow. Talk about a stretch. Basically, all your timeline does is verity the plausibly of the Times’ claim that Netanyahu knew about the speech before his address to Congress was set up.
@Tom:
Yeah…..like the rest of us.
Straight from Hillary Clinton!
“….got wind of it….”
What?
Was it a secret Hillary wasn’t supposed to share???
LOL!
@Nan G:
Tell me, Nan, because I must have missed it, where exactly in your intrepid sleuthing is the proof that Netanyahu first learned of the speech from Clinton? And, for my own edification, please provide your definition of the phrase “got wind”, if you’d be so kind. You seem to weigh it with a conspiratorial edge that I doubt the writer intended.
Watching Hannity. Rove stated that both the Muslim in Chief and Shillary have to back track from the irate leader of Israel. Huge fallout from this. Gotta save those huge left wing donors of Jewish leanings. This amateur hour is getting hilarious. Looks like Egypt is falling to the Muslim Brotherhood of the Arab Spring.
I wonder if Bebe is going to visit Stephen Harper for consolation?
The Won got a huge history lesson. Is he that stupid, even with billions of dollars worth of advice?
The Bush letter supporting Israel,which was endorsed by both Houses, is solid gold.
Well, that’s interesting, Tom. If Netanyahu were running for POTUS, he’d get my vote.
And what’s this “running behind” the POTUS back bit? The US is offering up Israeli land as a price for peace… when they know full well that’s been offered, and rejected before… and it’s BeBe doing the “hamstringing”? And that comment about a “blank check and shut up” bit? You’d better reread my comment with links above.
You’re one piece of work, dude.
@MataHarley:
Hmmm… at the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist, I don’t think he was born in America. He seems vaguely “middle-eastern”… not American at all. Where’s the birth certificate, Bibi?
How could the US offer up land that’s not ours? I think perhaps what the President is doing is trying to set up realistic parameters for brokering a deal. If this was easy to do, it would have been done a long time ago. Netanyahu would prefer the status quo, obviously, so any attempt to broach a realistic road map is going to be met with hysteria from the right wing, both in Israel and America. Netanyahu’s position is unsustainable, and neither side is going to get everything they want, so any American position that’s actually attempting to be constructive is necessarily going to be painful and controversial. Being a cheerleader for Netanyahu, and doing nothing to advance peace, would have been the politically safe position to take. I think we saw how far that advanced a solution during the last administration.
Right back at you, Dudette (fist bump).
Tom seems to be bitching about something that hasn’t happened, that I can see. I don’t believe anyone here has stated that Obama, and by extension, the U.S., should be “taking marching orders from Netanyahu”.
And it’s quite funny that he is defending the POTUS, who is trying to tell Israel what their marching orders should be, concerning ME peace talks. I can’t imagine the amount of stretching that it takes to reconcile those within one’s mind, so that one can defend Obama.
Alternative perspective, Tom. Obama’s announcement of that as the starting point stated a US backed position right out of the gate that was beyond offensive to the Israelis, and many of we Americans. Nor is that a “realistic parameter” for brokering a deal. Israel has been there, done that, before with Clinton’s Camp David accords. Arafat and the PA just found another reason not to agree… which brings me to your second observation:
No where close to the truth. Israel desires peace more than their neighbors. But they’re not going to give up the farm, and then be further encroached upon post that acquisition. Those that do want the status quo, most especially now post Mubarak, is Palestine. Obama effectively removed the only remaining Arab obstacle in their path to (correction)
peace*war* with Israel.Which means that in two piss poor decisions, Obama threw Mubarak under the bus… the only one having Israel’s back via tunnels and sea… and then tossed in Israel by make the US stance that Israel give up land. The Arab world is quite astute that “friends” of the US do not fare well under this POTUS.
oh yes… LOL on the fist bump!
There’s a Palestinian orchestration to the turmoil in and around Israel. The Palestinians and Hamas recently coordinated a march across Israeli borders in a failed attempt to make Israel look like the authoritarian governments of Egypt, Syria and Libya. You saw the people crossing into Israel and being rebuffed by the Israeli military. A photo op for laughing Hamas creeps and a failed effort to parallel Israel’s reaction to other Arab states in the region where opposition is wining against creeps like Mubarack, Quadffi and others.
Listen to Obama and you would think that he is being fair-handed in saying that he’d like to see a safe and secure Israel. But listen carefully and he uses words like “contiguous” and “pre-1967 borders”. Make no mistake, Hamas could not have a better spokesman than Hussein Obama. But they will fail.
Fortunately, none of what Obama says will come to fruition. Not because Israel does not want peace; it’s because the kind of peace Israel requires is one that requires safeguards against an enemy that will not relent on their misdirected goal of wanting an end to the Israeli state. That alone is what will over and over again impede a negotiated peace.
The idea that September may bring a unilateral declaration of statehood, with the help of the U.N., for the Palestinians is as much of a pipe dream as anything. Israel won and should keep, in my humble opinion, all of the lands captured since the ’67 war. It will become easier for Israel to do this because the Palestinians are making missteps by colluding with Hamas, an internationally recognized terrorist group. I dare suggest that no one at the U.N. will suggest that terrorism is somehow worth siding with.
And, perhaps now American Jews will help kick Obama out. Obama is no friend of Israel.
defend zero at all costs huh tom?
telling another soveriegn country what they must do, and that dictate includes doing something akin to cutting your own throat, then the throat cuttee objects to having zero giving away their right to continued existance, and doesnt apreciate having its throat cut,
and they are disraspectful?!!
they are stabbing barack in the back??!
your a cretin
@MataHarley
It’s amazing that you conflate my expressed opinion about one individual, Netanyahu, with that of the entire country of Israel. Of course most Israelis desire peace. I’m even aware that the Palestine leadership has a terrible track record, has been historically rife with corruption, and hardly inspires confidence that they can rise to the occasion. Nevertheless, I think Netanyahu is unrealistically inflexible. This next thought isn’t directed specifically at you, but I also think that painting President Obama’s position as “anti-Israeli” because it doesn’t conform with the standard Israeli far-right position is the kind of oversimplification I’ve come to expect from some people on the fringe, those who can’t conceive of a reality that isn’t binary: you agree with me in totality, or you disagree with me in totality (details need not apply).
rumcrook, hi, they think ISRAEL are fool to give in to them who want to destroy them,
It’s their only goal, and nothing else,
bye, nice to read you again
@rumcrook:
sort of like this?
http://www.jewishnews.net.au/netanyahu-rejects-obamas-call-to-return-to-1967-border/
You’re no slouch yourself.
Tom, the more you talk, the more we see your knowledge of ME events… both past and current… are simply deplorable. Do you know anything about BeBe at all? Doesn’t sound like it… Hint. Burgeoning economy for Israel. Better when they’re at war and cleaning up the debris? Or when they’ve got a peace, even if fragile at best. Have a clue as to what role BeBe has played in Israel’s economy?
A little education about Israel and their leaders over the past 15 years may do you a world of good. Certainly we would be spared the pain of the your less than astute observations.
Tom, you make the accusation that Netanyahu is being “unrealistically inflexible.” How can you be so wrong?
Netanyahu represents his people, the Israelis, and it is their desire and wishes he carries out, unlike the empty suit that is now making up rules as he goes along and expects the American people to do his bidding.
Now, let’s take a look at a few facts, shall we? After the Six Day war, Israel possessed the Golan Heights, the Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, all lands taken from Jordan, Egypt and Syria. Israel has given back to Egypt the entire Sinai Peninsula and offered them the Gaza Strip which Egypt did not take back, conceded lands in the West Bank and still holds the Golan Heights. But Jordan also did not want the Golan Heights because Jordan did not want Hamas in their own back yard.
So Israel has given back much of the land they took by force, kept some that the Arab nations rejected and you say they are being unreasonable? And what happens when the Arab states refuse to take back the rest of the land. Jordan and Syria refused to accept lands previously owned by them because they want to create another state where they have no responsibility for that state’s people.
And what does Israel get for giving back those lands? They get rockets fired at school buses killing Israeli children. They get their cities bombarded by Iranian build bombs.
Demanding a Palestinian state is like U.S. declaring war on Canada and the people of Chicago demanding their own nation.
And what has Palestine done to show that it wants peace? Or the Gaza Strip? Oh, I know, the Israeli bockades you will claim oppress the Gazans. What a load.
When it comes to the Palestinian territories, the American press are all Walter Lipman.
@johngalt:
I can’t really speak to your point, John, as I find your post incoherent, but I couldn’t help noticing the whiney and wounded tone. Have we, as they say, crossed swords before? If so, was the ghastly result why you sound so glum?
ISRAEL, are very smart and diplomatic, they already figured out every thing they want to know,
and they will do what they want to protect their people not to protect their ennemies,
and whoever is siding with their ennemies will not be worth nothing for them.
good grief, Tom. Letter from Bush to Ariel Sharon in 2004 is the US commitment to which BeBe refers. A executive agreement in writing, similar agreements of which the SCOTUS has opined as constitutional, that this POTUS has decided to withdraw.
Can Israel sue the US because Obama decided not to honor his predecessor’s agreement in court? Probably not. But it sure does a number on US credibility, respect and support for allies.
Then again, Obama’s been very busy eliminating our allies thru his term thus far.
@retire05:
I appreciate the history lesson, retire, I really do. It is a good reminder of everything Israel has been through, and why they deserve peace rather than living in constant state of terror. The relative nobility of either side however doesn’t change my opinion that the current reality won’t bend to either sides’ most fervent wishes. A lasting peace will require a general acceptance on both sides that, while concessions may have been made, the end result has some fairness, perhaps even justice. Either side being subjugated and humiliated through force will only lead I fear to more misery down the road.
@MataHarley:
And please remind me again how Bush’ approach brought peace to Israel again, because I am pretty darn forgetful. Except I do know the letter of which you speak, and I don’t see how you can seriously expect a future president to be bound by that in perpetuity.
Tom, first, what is acheived by granting statehood to a land divided by other nations? The lands that constitute the Palestinian territories were once part of Syria, Jordan and Egypt. Second, if you want “right of return”, as the Palestinians are demanding, then give them the right to return to their original nations, not to be an independent Arab state.
Again, how much must Israel give? And what have the Palestinians given except bombs and suicide bombers?
If I were Israel, I would tell the world that I was willing to give the lands back to Egypt, Jordan and Syria and let them deal with the crazies in the Palestinian territories. And you are mistaken about the “nobility” of both sides. There is no nobility coming from Hamas or the PLO.
Tom, as per your questions here:@Tom:
simply use the link provided here:
@Nan G:
It was your own NYTimes quote that made it all seem so conspiratorial, Tom.
I just made fun of the NYTimes for doing so.
_____________________
Tom, in your #43 you wrote:
Tell me, is Abbas of Fatah in West Bank the legal leader?
The legal limit for his term was 4 years.
And that ended several years ago.
Abbas has put off legal elections ever since.
If you were supposed to sign a legal agreement, wouldn’t you want your opposite to be the properly, legally instituted representative for his side?
Abbas fails in that.
How can Israel sign anything with him?
Hamas appears to be the legally instituted representatives for Gaza.
BUT, Hamas has made it very clear that they still seek the utter, eventual destruction of Israel.
They have stated any ceasefire is only temporary and NOT a ”peace.”
They refuse to recognize the legal state of Israel.
How can Israel sign anything with them?
Obama was a fool to think he could box Israel into signing its own death warrant.
@retire05:
Great history lesson there, Retiro5.
It reminds me of the fact that Yemen was almost divided recently.
There are two very opposite Muslim factions in Yemen.
One in the east, with the main gov’t; the other, a larger population but disenfranchised, in the west.
Before the so-called ”Arab Spring,” these two factions were snipping at one another to the point where the Saudis started to create a 10 or 12 meter tall separation wall between themselves and all the fighting and fleeing populations.
One thing that cropped up during that earlier fighting was the demonization of one of the oldest Jewish populations in the Middle East: the native Yemeni Jews.
Before they all left, they were literally blamed for all the problems by leaders of both Yemeni Muslim factions.
If it hadn’t been so tragic it would be funny.
Oh, and guess who stepped right up to welcome all these displaced Middle Easterners from Yemen?
You guessed right if you said: Israel.
(I guess these Yemeni Jews should insist on their ”right of return,” right?)
@Tom: You really are showing your limited intelligence in this area, aren’t you?
I mean first you serve up a knee-jerk reaction with your insane story that Netanyahu was warned about the speech, then you offer this jewel of a statement:
You also must have a short memory…
From 2010:
So Obama has a history of behaving like a spoiled child on the world stage, especially as it pertains to Israel. Yet you find Netanyahu’s behavior “insulting?”
You really are a slow learner. Israel should not have to give land back that it won in a war with three other countries that were receiving aid from five other countries. For Obama to attempt to tell Israel what to do is as asinine as your shilling for the Anointed One.
Give it up, Tom. Much like Egypt, Syria and Jordan, you have lost this conflict.
It didn’t take me long to figure out that this is what Obama intends for the now free USA:
http://m.flickr.com/photos/35983084@N07/5239786123/sizes/m/
@Smorgasbord: ROFL, Smorgs. Great pic. Sadly spot on…
@anticsrocks: ·58
I like to keep my Tea Party signs kind of funny, but after I finished that one and looked at the two pictures at the bottom and realized just how true they are, I almost cry each time I look at it because I know that is what Obama is going for. Millions have died to keep the USA a free country and he wants to turn it into a Muslim state.
Smorgasbord, hi, aren’t you making too much miles? around the NORTHEN JUNGLE?
traveling is nice but tiresome, Is In’t It? , and not every body, can do so much traveling.
nice of you to visit.
take care bye
@ilovebeeswarzone: #60
I ain’t traveling any more. I found my place a few miles north of Boise, Idaho. Small town, but has all the stuff I need to be happy. I have time to read my favorite blogs again.
I’m a retired truck driver. Traveling never bothered me. Now I could stop any time and see the sights. I couldn’t do that driving a semi. It was really nice to drive in any lane I wanted and park anywhere I wanted.
@ Larry
Larry:
So Obama decides to shock our greatest friend and ally in the ME instead of the other side? How ’bout telling the Palestinians and the neighboring states they have 90 days to draft a formal resolution recognizing Israel as a nation and their right to exist or the US will veto any and all resolutions brought forth against Israel?
Nah, much better to piss off your friends. Don’t want to step on muslim sensitvities.
@Tom:
It is a simple point, Tom. That you fail to comprehend what I’ve posted isn’t my problem, especially as the post wasn’t directed at you.
However, so that you can understand it, I’ll restate it differently;
In post #16, you stated this;
In post #30, you stated this;
Basically, what I’ve gotten from your posts has been that you are against Obama getting his marching orders from Netanyahu, which no one here has promoted, yet you wish Israel to get their marching orders from the U.S., concerning how to go about achieving peace.
My post was simply an observation that it must have taken quite the twisting of ideas, in order to come up with any sort of rational where it is ok for Obama to do what you rail against Israel supposedly doing.
Now that you’ve engaged me into a discussion, I must ask exactly how you achieved the rational that allowed you to condemn another man, and country, for exactly what Obama is doing.
P.S. Yes, we have discussed a topic before, but No, the result wasn’t “ghastly”. That you would think so partially answers what I asked above. If nothing else, you certainly have a ‘one-of-a-kind’ mind, here on FA. And no, that wasn’t exactly a compliment.
NanG, let’s not forget why the Jews were given the area of land for a nation that they were. It was a desolate area, nonproductive and really worth about as much as Oklahoma was when Jackson moved the Cherokees there. It was land that was thought to be really wanted by no one else. But the Jews fooled everyone. They turned waste land into fields, and they made the land prosper.
Shall we compare what the Jews did with trash land with their Arab neighbors? Can you name one Arab land that has grown in prosperity, that is capable of feeding its own residents and has enough left over to export? Look at the oil rich nations of the Middle East. There should be no poverty in any of them. Yet poverty reigns supreme. Look at Iraq. Hardly a poor nation (oil rich), yet when our soldiers got there they found starving children too week to even crawl to be handed a MRE. Saudi Arabia, again oil rich, has a high rate of poverty. Western capitalism would decrease the rate of poverty if those nations had the oil rich invested in building plants and products, but they don’t. It is said that Yasser Arafat’s widow, who currently lives in Paris, has a stipend of $20 million/year. How did Arafat amass such a fortune living in Palestine?
You cannot understand the mindset that allows such poverty and dispair unless you understand Islam. You see, to those who profit from the oil, it was their destiny. All things that happen in the life of a Muslim is already predetermined by Allah, so that is your fate. You have no responsibility for your actions if your actions are already predetermined. And if your fate is to live in poverty, alas, that is Allah’s will.
It should be pointed out, time after time, that Obama, during his campaign, told the American Jews quite a different story than he had acted out as President. He assured them that Jerusalem would always remain the capital of Israel, now it wants to go back to 1967 borders which will esentially spilt the old city from the rest of Jerusalem and put all the holy sites, Christian, Jewish and Muslim, in the hands of Muslims. When the rioters in Egypt violated their own precious artifacts at the Cairo Museum how much care will the Palestinians show in taking care of Christian/Jewish holy sites in Jerusalem?
Will the thousands of Jews that were kicked off Arab lands after the Six Day War have a right of return?
I don’t know who advises the man-child that currently sits at the Resolution Desk, or if he is making decisions based on his own biases, but he is making some decisions that will have ramifications that will ripple across the globe. Egypt is getting ready to abolish its peace treaty with Israel, Iran is chomping at the bit to attack Israel, Syria is a state sponsor of terrorism, Jordan is precarious. Lebanon has its own set of troubles with Hezbollah.
Still, I have to wonder why the Arab nations are now all on fire. Why now? And please, don’t tell me that one man, setting himself on fire in Tunisia, cause the riots to roll across the Middle East like a black cloud. What changed? Were the ditators not in place a year ago, three years ago, five years ago? Were those who promoted the riots and protests assured that the U.S. would support them? Somehow, I think there was more security for the U.S. in the dictators we knew than what may come to pass, especially in Egypt. Is the “Arab Spring” another Cuba, 1959? Another Iran? Mubarak must go; Qdaffy must go; Assad can stay? What kind of foreign policy is that? Who is picking the winners and losers in the Arab Spring?
@retire05:
Do you remember when Code Pink tried to get into Gaza via Egypt?
They used their time in Egypt showing Egyptians how to mount effective demonstrations, even paining signs with classic American Left slogans.
Do you remember when a leftist Congress woman joined one of the ”flotilla” boats?”
Do you remember that one of the top Google executives was arrested demonstrating for Egypt but after his release the Muslim Brotherhood refused to allow him on the victory stage?
There has been a concerted effort by the farthest American-Left to bring down some of the old leaders in the Arab World.
As you pointed out widow Arafat gets her $20 million a month (not a year) to shop in Paris and keep her mouth shut. She bargained for that as she had the Swiss bank account numbers for Billions of Arafat’s cash when he died. The money was why Arafat only wanted conflict instead of peace. If he had peace there might be a closer accounting for why ”his” people were suffering so much. With constant war he could always say the Israelis destroyed expensive stuff. Who would challenge him on that?
Right now we have ”rebels” in Libya who insist on something like $3billion in American aid. A reporter following Libya reckoned that came to a $500,000 paycheck for EACH rebel! Ghaddafi’s men only get $2 or 3 thousand to go into battle!
What amazes me is that the Left (who instigated this set of civil wars) still thinks a non-extremist outcome will occur.
At what point did they lose interest?
If they paid attention from beginning to now they would see that Israel/America hating violent jihadist-types are winning the day at the end of the day.
Egypt is one place like that.
But now Obama has made some weird call to whit that Muslim Brotherhood is a moderate, even secular choice.
So, he IS paying attention and LIKES what he sees.
Now Obama wants to forgive Egypt’s debt and give it a few billion more, knowing it goes directly to the Muslim Brotherhood to set up an Islamist regime.
Gaza, too, with Hamas at the head, has seen more money from Obama.
Iran is trying to become a player in countries surrounding Israel.
And Iran has nuclear capabilities.
And Iran’s leadership has shown, by their own treatment of their own people, that Iranian lives are less important than ”wiping Israel off the map.”
There is such a thing as hating America so much that you become blinded to everything else.
I think these Leftists, including Obama are there.
Here’s what we have to look forward to, if Obamacare is not repealed;
No other comment necessary.
NanG, I well remember CodePinko’s foray into Egypt with the purpose entering Gaza. I also remember that they carried with them a letter of recommendation from John (Benedict Arnold) Kerry who asked Egypt to give CodePinko access to the Gaza Strip. Egypt refused.
Obama wrote in his bio that he assumed the persona of his biological father, who was a virulent anti-colonialist. Why would a young man, basically raised in the U.S. assume that mantilla? Was it because he, himself, viewed his own nation as a colonial power who tromped on the rights of others to gain power?
The far left are not very bright. They assume that any entity that opposses the U.S. is their friend. [The enemy of my enemy is my friend.] But eventually, as the enemy of their enemy gains in power, they will find themselves being turned on. Media Benjamine (not her real name) has lost all credence in Cuba, so now she turns her attention to the Middle East. Little does she understand that under Shi’ria, she will be the first to hang from the arm of a construction crane.
The little ignored phrase in Obama’s speech is the one that bothers me the most. “Israel has the right to defend itself – by itself.” That was a clear message to the Middle East that he has no intention of intervention in the event Israel is attacked by its Muslim adversaries.
Obama knows his own personal history. I think he views himself more Arab than Kenyan. Or at least feels close ties with his Arab heritage.
Obama was quiet as an AMERICAN Iranian woman on a trip to Iran was arrested with her Iranian husband.
Obama was quiet when she was ”tried” for ”adultery.”
In March she was HUNG – yes, slowly from a construction crane so she suffocated to death.
This has now become public knowledge but Obama is still silent.
Now we learn today that Iran has arrested another 30 people under charges that they are spies of America.
That also carries a death sentence.
Will Obama do or say anything?
Likely these are not Americans but simply home-grown revolutionaries.
Under the bus?
Bush? Good grief… if it’s not annoying enough to have to deal with our conservative ODS types, it’s just mind blowing how everything with your BDS types always must come to Dubya. Well, personally I can’t let this go unaddressed, since you brought it up. How about I give you an example of a POTUS who handled foreign policy and diplomatic relations with the savvy of one who knows when the parties can work together, and also with the grace and aplomb Obama can only envy.
In other words, Bush knew when there was a good fit for negotiations, and didn’t stage shows for political posturing. Additionally, Bush did not deign to speak for the Israelis… as he said in his letter of 2004:
In every instance in his terms, Bush made it quite plain that a return to the 1967 borders were a losing proposition, and that both any settlement withdrawal or renegotiated borders were to be the decision of the Israelis and Palestinians, and would receive the full support of the US.
This is exactly how a savvy POTUS should behave. Obama’s ego prohibits him from doing anything other than exercising the bully pulpit in the most stupid and offensive manner possible.
But there was only a year’s window of opportunity for any potential peace talks between the two.
Sharon, recipient of the Bush 2004 letter, came into the PM position a few months after Bush was sworn in. (Predecessor was Barak). However with Arafat on the other side of the table, Bush knew little would be accomplished,and did not seek to pursue what was obvious a failure in advance. Bush actually learns and remembers history. Remember that “not posturing” bit? Bush’s letter to Sharon was written in April of 2004.
Six or seven months later, Arafat died and (after interim appointee) was succeeded by Abbas. It was not until Arafat was replaced that Bush saw any avenue for success in attempted peace talks. Sharon and Abbas were possibly a good fit. Sharon, however, had a stroke a little more than a year after Arafat’s death.
This ushered in the Israeli corrupt pansy ass, Olmert. Tho Olmert had decent relations with Fatah, he fell way out of favor in Israel for his handling of ensuing conflicts… most notably the Lebanon War. There would be no peace between Olmert… who was more likely to give away the farm… and Abbas because Israelis themselves detested Olmert. Indeed, Olmert and BeBe went head to head in the press over his leadership often.
The combination of Olmert and Abbas as leaders remained until Olmert was replace by BeBe (for his 2nd round as PM) in March of 2009… well after Bush’s departure from the WH. This, however, did not say that Bush didn’t attempt to bring them together in late 2007-08 at the Annapolis meeting. A quasi successful agreement since it’s the first time the two parties agreed to a two-state solution.
The difference is Bush never believed, nor made the “suggestion” that Israeli should return to 1967 borders. What he stated quite clearly is that Israel and Palestine would have to come to agreement on any border changes and settlements. One POTUS suggests the areas of contention, another POTUS tells our ally what they will have to do… which has already been proven unrealistic and not feasible thru history.
With BeBe and Abbas, perhaps there could have been some agreement… but it sure wouldn’t be on borders. But there is no possibility of any agreement now because of the changing and unstable face of the surrounding nations. Palestine has no need to acquiesce for peace because they will shortly have several more nations that will be led by those who do not believe in Israel’s right to existence. So anything done prior to the Egyptian election as “peace talks” is a dog and pony show.
Obama did this for political posturing only. Frankly, he’s added a ton of kindling to the smoldering fire that was the ME by his choices of who he wanted ousted, and who he allowed to run roughshod over the protestors. And the price all pay for such poor decisions is likely to manifest itself very shortly.
Just saw this at No Quarter:
Rev. Manning predicted in 2008 that Obama made a deal with Pakistan to give him Bin Laden for Israel in 2011.
Rev Manning predicted this in 2008:
http://youtu.be/-4oxch8af0I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4oxch8af0I&feature=youtu.be
moonbattery.com currently has photos of Barack Obama and Bibi Netanyahu at the same age, posted side by side.
Which man would you want to lead you in war?
A few years ago, I was sent from Baghdad to Jordan to work with some UN people and several NGOs. I was invited to a private dinner with a very wealthy man who use to live in Palestine. His house was built on a hill from which I could see the lights of Israel when we sat on the roof. I suspected this gentleman thought I would be able to help him get some Army contracts in Iraq.
After a few preliminary conversations, he outright asked me what I thought about the Palestine issue. I am not noted for my tact, but I answered with a question, “what issue are you talking about”. He proceeded to make a case for a Palestine state. I told him that I thought that all of the people in that area had been living there for 1000s of years. They got along for the most part. From My understanding that when the UN authorized a Jewish state after the Ottoman Empire was vanquished, then everyone wanted the land. It was divided between Jordan and Israel.
When the 1967 Arab war against Israel ended up with the Arabs getting their butts whipped, Israel took the land they needed to prevent another attack. Since then they have traded land for peace and got no peace. I told him that from the beginning of recorded history, the Palestine area had belonged to many. It was like a game of musical chairs. At the end of the game, the Arabs were too slow and were left standing.
There is nothing Israel can do to make peace with the Arab countries. They will not be satisfied until Israel is wiped off the face of the Earth. The Arabs are like a lot of ideologs. They want something, but never understand the consequences. Israel is the center for technology and agriculture in the Middle East. Without Israel, many would starve. The Arab states need to be careful of what they wish for.
@Randy: I would be very interested in your host’s reaction to what you told him, Randy.
@Randy (#72): I’m half-Jewish and my Dad is all Jewish and is a bona fide Israeli army veteran of the 1973 Yom Kippur War (I’ll tell that story another time).
I don’t disagree with what you wrote in #72, but I’d like to add a few things.
Historically (to my understanding) the nation of Israel ceased to exist when it was defeated by the Romans. Thereafter, what is now Israel and Palestine were just part of a great, largely border less territory, occupied by nomadic people of many ethnicities. In more recent times, it was part of the great Ottoman empire. There were always Jews living in this region, along with Arabs, Persians, and others. The people more or less got along, albeit with the sort of sporadic, inevitable conflicts which tend to arise between humans belonging to different tribes (e.g. liberals and conservatives in the blogosphere).
Anyway, all the real trouble started after WWI. Turkey was defeated. The UK and Europe inherited the Ottoman empire and proceeded to carve it up, with European cartographers drawing the maps, as determined by European politicians (Balfour Declaration). One of the things that the British decided was that there should be a homeland for Jews. A follow on to the Balfour Declaration was the Palestinian Mandate, which began as follows:
This was the beginning of the trouble. This led to the in migration to British-ruled Palestine of large numbers of European Jews. If you recall how touchy we Americans get about the in migration of largely quiet, passive Mexicans, imagine how the indigenous Arabs felt about the the in migration of assertive, active, take charge outsiders. Of course, there were bad feelings and occasional violence.
Fast forward to post-World War II and post-Holocaust. Europe and the US wanted a true Jewish homeland. What should have been done was to carve it out of Bavaria or some other part of Germany (as had been done to Germany after both WWI and WWII, to satisfy other territorial needs). Had that been done, today there would be thriving, secure Jewish homeland, which would be an economically vibrant part of the EU. Instead, Palestine was partitioned between Jews and Arabs. The indigenous Arabs, many of whom had lived there for generations (unlike most of the Jewish neo-immigrants) were outraged by the partition, and war erupted. This was ended by an armistice, but there was never a peace treaty and the Palestinian Arabs never surrendered. It took more than 100 years before Saladin recovered Jerusalem from the Crusaders, and this is the mindset of many if not most Arabs today. They think on God’s time — it’s a bit like the Mony Python Holy Grail Black Knight sketch – “tis but a scratch.” — pertaining to their various military defeats.
Anyway, I’ve never liked attempts by people to justify the present day incarnation of Israel on the basis of some claim to a historical “homeland” abandoned nearly 2000 years ago. I think it’s important to try to walk a sandy kilometer in the sandals of a Palestinian Arab and understand that they really do have some legitimate complaints. That doesn’t mean that there shouldn’t be acceptance of certain realities by all parties. On a moral basis, we European Americans are living on land stolen from the indigenous American people (and, in the case of both Texas and California, stolen from the Mexicans); we don’t have the moral high ground; we do have reality.
If I were in charge of things, I’d try and locate every single descendant from every single Arab who lived on present day Israeli land but who was forced to leave in the violence of the 1948 war. I’d essentially pay them blood money — say $1,000,000 apiece — in return for giving up all present and future claims against Israel. I’d then negotiate border adjustments, which would give the West Bank Palestinian territory of equal value to those taken in the occupied Jewish settlements. I’d give Israel defensible borders, but give the Palestinians land (or a major amount of money) in exchange for land required by Israel for secure borders. I’d also give the Palestinians a much greater share of the Jordan River.
You take the enormous sums of money spent by the USA and Europe on account of the Arab/Jewish conflict in greater Palestine/Israel and figure how much better it would have been to put the money to much better use by essentially buying a peace treaty, and I think that everyone involved would have been much better off today. I think that we should stop throwing good money after bad.
- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
openid.aol.com/runnswim, hi,
It’s very nice to give such an idea to solve a long time problem,
but where do you put the HATE so deeply ingrained in their souls transmitted generations after generation, this is the boulder that make your or Obama any idea to solve it will fail no matter how much money you would put on their table would be use to by weapons to kill the JEWISH COMMUNITY,
and when all spent ,they would ask for more again to kill.
so they have to solve their own problems before getting any favor from the WORLD’S NATIONS.
THEIR ACTIONS IS TO FOLLOW THE ALL MUSLIMS GOAL TO INVADE THE NATIONS BY WAY OF IMMIGRATION OR ILLEGAL ENTRY BY WAY OF CORRUPTS AGENTS CHARGING THEM LOTS OF MONEY, GETTING SUPER RICH BY SKENIVING THEIR PEOPLE,AND ANOTER WAY THAT SEEMS TO SERVE THEM WELL IS CLAIMING refugy statues and having all the help rom CHRISTIAN SANCTUARYS WHO ARE COLLECTING THEIR MONEY WHICH IS NOT THEIR OWN, from the GOVERNMENT HELP ON ALL KINDS OF RELIGION STATUE ORGANISATION, and also by well staged SPEECHS DIRECTED TO THE COMPASSIONATE PEOPLE OF THEIR COMMUNITY, which again doesn’t belong to them,
if those would have to dig in their own pocket whoever they are, be it the PRESIDENT HIMSELF,
OR IMAN OR PRIEST OR AGENTS NAME SOME MORE,ANYWHERE,.
YOU WOULD NOT have such effort to respond to those people, and they probably change their focus from HATE to appreciation on what ISRAEL is doing for peace in their country, as a peacefull neighbord they will never have on other borders,because of their beliefs learned ions of years ago.
@anticsrocks: Well, he went to the refrigerator and got me a beer. He had bough some food supplies at a very large discount. Then he tried to get me to help him sell 5 metric tonnes of ostrich meat to the soldiers in Iraq. He didn’t get wealthy by being dumb!
Randy, hi,
those poor OSTRICHS, getting slaughter, I wonder what they taste like,
It must take a big oven to barbekue that bird,
I can picture you coming with the bird by the neck to your troops,
you must have giving them a good chuckle
I have my tinfoil hat on: And another unreported 8.4 mag. earthquake in Libya on Thursday.
Reports vanish:
http://www.dailypaul.com/165321/84-earthquake-in-libya-was-all-over-all-the-siesmic-sites-now-gone
Libya’s “secret” water project in the desert. Could we have blown it up, creating the 8.4 “earthquake” the reports of which have now vanished?
http://twelfthbough.blogspot.com/2011/03/virtually-unknown-in-west-libyas-water.html
plainjane, perhaps it’s “unreported” because it didn’t happen. Instead of depending upon blogs, you might reference the USGS site, which monitors worldwide events. This is the page for the past 7 days. There’s another page for the past 8-30 days. THe reason the “reports” have likely vanished is because it never happened. I guess they’d want to cover their tracks after looking like fools. Earthquakes of even the minimal size can not escape from the world seismic monitors.
Remove your tinfoil and have a pleasant Saturday evening instead.
plainjane. hi, that’s is realy creepy, when I came back from the WORSMITH POST about the rapture,
expressing a comment, and having that news on my way back to my site,
maybe KADAFI HIMSELF DID BLOW IT UP, TO FREAKED UP THE ENNEMIES,
JUST thinking,
Another possible explanation for the Libyan “earthquake” was given by one of the guys on the site where some claimed to have seen seismic activity on their monitors:
id we blow it up? If “bunker bombs” were used in Libya anywhere against any target, our planes and our bombs would have been used. Perhaps that information was not for publication by our government.
Gaddafi water project
Here is the link in the Christian Science Monitor about the water project:
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/2010/0823/Libya-s-Qaddafi-taps-fossil-water-to-irrigate-desert-farms
If you search for 8.4 mag.Libyan earthquake: you get some reports of a missing quake:
http://vanshardware.com/2011/05/the-case-of-the-missing-8-4-libyan-earthquake/
http://www.camelotforum.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=17&id=44360&Itemid=164
One agency reports: “device error” but reports that the government could be running drills on the New Madrid Fault as well as trying to cause earthquakes in Libya, with a system called Haarp
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ac/20110521/pl_ac/8509271_84_libyan_earthquake_error_haarp_and_prophecy_incite_intense_earthquake_interest_1
I report all of these links, not to be derided, but to float ideas that may actually have some merit. Things have been known to disappear from legitimate sites…
right… never been thru an earthquake personally, eh plainjane? Like an 8.4 on the Richter scale is easy to hide? LOL
Never mind… you enjoy your tinfoil. Sorry I interfered with your personal entertainment.
@ retire05
Can you name any Polish, English, Mexican, Australian, etc… who would fly planes etc. Your question is a false equivalency and does not address the core issue. How many terrorists have targeted the United States because of our support to Israel? Maybe that is why they help us, huh? I am not saying abandoning Israel… I am saying there are HUGE costs that are unENDING. It is like a cottage industry for crying out loud! They keep taking the cash and we keep going into debt.
It is funny on how all the tax cutters don’t have this paid for either.
@ Mata,
I have not looked back beyond the past reporting period (seems unnecessary), and Israel was not in the top 20 . I also would bet that they would be even lower if they were not buying arms with money we gave them. Oh, and by the way, we export oil to Israel… we have a huge trade imbalance with Israel.
Strategically Located? Have you looked at a map???? They are surrounded by Arab countries… They are not contiguous to vital resources and we have other facilities capable of projecting our power. As it is, most of our efforts for security of oil are in the Persian Gulf. As to the big assistance they have been in helping our intelligence… I think that is the least they could do, since we are have been exposed to those risks due to our support of them.
My point is not to bash Israel. I think their strategic value is over rated, they are more a political issue. We need to get on with a settlement, and spending tons of our money over there does give us the right to bitch about this spending.
One can well imagine how I feel about all of this. I have ranted for years not only as to this Presidents clear hate for Israel but in fact his despite for anything or anyone that disagrees with his philosophy that we are the cause of the world’s problems and must apologize for this and in turn cede our leadership to the third world haters in the U.N and other counties! Only a complete idiot could or would turn their back on the one ally we could always depend on. Only a blind asshole would support a people who kill without though other than to exterminate a race.
Yet this President with his actions is every bit as despicable as the morons in Germany back in the 30′s. For all of the lefty apologists out there, you can take my comparing this to Hitler and blow it out your asses! The heads of the Muslim Brotherhood as well as so many other Radical Muslim factions are uttering almost word for word the exact Anti-Jewish tirades one heard prior to and during the Holocaust! There are Muslim leaders who openly condone this and the President in his actions and words sides with them! That is fact kids! President Obama with his demands is openly signing Israel’s death warrant! Yet, we have so many morons here at home in the Jewish community who back this guy! My God! What is it you’re drinking?
As one can expect, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did not take to this lightly. No Siree! Friday, Bibi stood face to face with the President and proceeded to administer a smack down that was a marvel to behold! We can all sit here and marvel at the fact that Carter was a really inept leader to say the least. At least he was an honest moron! As he bumbled his way through his Presidency, he was of course ridiculed to a great extent by all. However, I’m not sure if in my lifeline I have ever seen a President of the United States put into his place as what we witnessed yesterday! The 2 quotes below say it so nicely:
From the great Pamela Geller at Atlas Shrugs: Much needed. Schooling the delinquent.
From Ironic Surrealism: The bitch slap heard around the world.
Bibi showed the kind of balls and courage it takes to be a leader! Amazing how Obama’s complete disdain for Israel showed in his face and actions, isn’t it? I for one would ask as Bibi did in so many words, “Who in the hell do you think you are President Bozo! What in the hell gives you the right to demand us to do anything? Who died and made you the chief apologist for the radical scum that wants to wipe every Jew off the face of the earth?! While I’m on the subject! Have you opened your eyes to the fact that the Radical Muslim states are telling you to F…. Off?! Just wondering because you sure as hell aren’t looking at the Mideast through open eyes!
I for one was embarrassed for our country as we now know as a fact this President is prepared to help with the elimination of the Jewish state! Bibi stood his ground and the President openly showed his hate for not only the man but in my opinion every Jewish person around the world. The hate and scorn in the President’s eyes was real. His open disdain for Bibi was not only apparent but hostile! And this is supposed to be the leader of the free world! Barf! Bibi basically took the proverbial two by four and whopped an ass up the side of its head. Unfortunately, Obama’s head is beyond thick. More like pig iron I guess as apparently the ass whipping didn’t change his perverse view of the Mid-East or the world in general!
I have said in the past I feel this clown is the most Anti-Israel leaning President in my lifetime. One only had to read his book as it was there in his own words! (Quote from Obama’s book: Audacity of Hope: I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.). My question is and has been, being of Jewish descent myself, I can’t help but wonder how the Jewish population here in the U.S. keeps voting for Anti-Semitic liars, yet every polling day they somehow blindly rush to do so. In turn, we now have an administration that appears more than happy to watch Israel be eradicated. “As Ye sow, so shall Ye reap”. We are now witnessing the harvest of a seed that was planted centuries ago, nurtured over years and years, blooming every now and then (Nazi Germany for example) and now is in fact at full bloom.
My only question now? Will the Jewish population in this country now come to their senses and stop marching in lockstep with the very politicians that actually hold them in utter disdain? Hell, I’ve seen over and over people saying (including O’Reiley) that the American Jewish population would still deliver at least 65 to 70 percent of their votes to the President and his Anti-Semite leftist party!
In turn, can this really be true? Is the Jewish American population completely brain dead? Are they so completely screwed up in their heads that they believe for one moment that the atrocities we see aimed day after day at Israel will not be aimed at them once Israel is destroyed? Do they think for one moment a President that openly embraces a radical element bent on the elimination of the Jewish people will even try to stop the insurrection that is already making itself evident around the country? This same slow creeping cancer that is the Anti-Jewish sentiment is exactly the same as Nazi Germany. The similarities are there for all to see. Of course, I and others will be vilified for even having the audacity to compare our President to Hitler, yet he is allowing this to happen. Between his perceived hate for the Jews (again, this is how I see it!) and his Chaimberlain like stance of ‘I believe they’ll negotiate in good faith belief in the radical Muslims who are now apparently running things (this clown really does believe in his heart radicals can be reasoned with. I’ve never figured this out, yet year after year morons think one can deal with hateful radicals. Can’t be done!) Israel, All Jews and if someone will finally get their heads out of their asses and realize, Western civilization as we know it are in deep danger!
I stand corrected, blast. In 2004, they were the 21st, and in 2010 the 23rd. So this now makes them unimportant in your view?
$1.8 bil is a “huge imbalance”? By what standard to you chose to view this, in light of the trade deficits with China, Mexico, Japan, Germany, Venezuela, Canada, Ireland, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria and Russia?
Israel is, at least, a stalwart ally, unlike Venezuela, Nigeria, China and Russia. Your priorities are, IMHO, extremely misplaced.
You’ve got to be kidding me…. and where is a better spot for intel collection than in the belly of the beast, or the camp of the enemy? Only the most naive could even attempt to diss Israeli intelligence. That would be you.
Sentences two and three totally belie your attempts to backtrack in sentence one, blast. To whom do we owe mutual trade, defense and allegience but to allies with shared values of freedom. Most especially those under overt assault from their neighbors.
There will never be a “settlement” in your or my lifetimes, blast. The Arab world’s quest has always been to eliminate Israel, and they will not stop short of that. And if you think allowing Israel’s existence to cease will eliminate the need of “spending tons of our money over there, you are living in LaLa land.
Having allies in Israel, Iraq and any other country in that region is integral to our national defense. When assaults on the US originates from that region… i.e. Sept 11… just how do you suggest the US military functions without intel and nearby places for military to base and jump off? Not to mention have the stellar back up of those nation’s military?
Dang, blast… for a former military guy, you really are lacking in the brights about combat strategy.
blast, while you may view answering a question with a question is a tactic, it is simply a diversion because to answer my question whould not be in fitting with your mantra.
The fact remains: Israel is our ONLY true ally in the Middle East, a ME this is currently blowing up like a cheap firecracker. So while you whine about the money we give to Israel to aid them in repelling their Muslim enemies, and fight for their very life, you do not mention the aid we give Mexico as Mexico allows its citizens to migrate, illegally, unto our nation and rape, pilage and murder our citizens, whether directly or indirectly via the drug trade.
You don’t like Israel; ok, we get it, we really do. But I would warrent that if the intel that we get from Israel were to dry up, and more and more Palestinians were killing more and more Americans, you would be the first to complain that Israel was not doing all it could to help protect American citizens.
Now perhaps I can simplify the questions you need to ask yourself: exactly what have the Palestinians done to promote the peace process with Israel? What concessions have the Palestinians made? You see, when you claim you are for peace, you must be willing to show it with deeds, not empty words, which is all the Palestinians have offered.
joetote, yes and the free world must know that OBAMA speak not as a representative
of the AMERICANS MAJORITY, BUT FOR HIS OWN BELIEF THAT IS INGRAINED IN HIS NATURE
AND UPBRINGNING,, also the same as his appologyes given to other NATIONS even those that have hated AMERICA and demonysed it for the centurys past, that is ingrained also in their nature and upbringning from generation to generation as OBAMA was, like some one said that is part of their soul,
but IT is not part of AMERICA MAJORITY UPBRINGNING. ISRAEL is part of the friends of AMERICA and
has always been in the best interest of it to maintain good relation to show that our ennemies are better to think twice before using hate actions against allies of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND IT’S ALLYES.
Obama continues his “throw Israel under the bus” plan today at AIPAC:
“The borders of Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps, so that the secure and recognized borders are established for both sides. The Palestinian people must have the right to govern themselves, and reach their potential, in a sovereign and contiguous state.”
How is that possible without Israel conceding tremendous land and actually splitting itself in half? It’s not. Basically what Obama is proposing is that Isreal concede enough land to the Palestinians to connect the Gaza Strip with the West Bank. And that would literally cut Israel in half.
When will American Jews wake up? Or will they allow themselves, and their Israeli friends and family, to be destroyed by this man who poses as the American president?
The simple fact is this. The Palestinians have not made even one small amount of reaching out towards peace. They have continued to terrorize, and threaten, Israel, not only with individual acts of violence, but the wider view of Israel’s right to exist.
Israel, on the other hand, has made numerous concessions, time and time again, all of which have been thrown back in their faces.
For our President, regardless of how much aid we give Israel, to demand of them something that will put them in great peril, not just from violent, war-like action, but as to their very existence, isn’t just mean-spirited, or petulance, or even stupidity. It belies a willful desire to see the end of Israel, as evidenced by Obama’s willingness to deal with the most violent of Muslim representatives with sublime diplomacy, while attacking verbally those entities in the ME who have acted even somewhat in conservation of Israels right to exist.
@retire05:
What’s interesting, and telling, is Obama’s use of the word contiguous, in relation to the Palestinians, while there is no such proclamation for Israel.
Also telling is his lack of mention of Jerusalem, itself. As of this moment, there are somewhere around 500k jews within Jerusalem, with 200k muslims and a much smaller number of christians. Judaism, of the three main, monotheistic faiths, that claim Jerusalem as a center of it’s religion, is the only one that claims it for the city entire. The other two, Christianity and Islam, simply describe the city in terms of holy sites. To the Jews, Jerusalem, the city, is the capital of it’s religion. Pre-1967 borders would effectively cut off the nation of Israel, from it’s citizens’ religious capital city, and hence, no contiguity for Israel.
Israel is itself a vital strategic area in the ME.
Israel is home to a minimum of 159 Nobel Prize winners in the hard sciences.
Israel leads the world in desalinization for fresh water.
Israel leads the world in water conservation techniques.
Israel leads the world in pharmaceutical research and development.
Israel leads the world in hunting down and killing terrorists.
Israel, as opposed to many other countries in the locale, allows the US to fly over its air space.
Israel allows open homosexuals to live free, the ONLY ME country to do that.
Israel opens its arms to refugees from ME and African countries who are being targeted by jihad.
@retire05
Finally you mention Mexico, a country we DEFINITELY associated in our VITAL national interests.
I did not address everything in your comments because they are just opinions. You have not demonstrated that is vital about our relationship with Israel. I have no issues with Israel, I have issues with opened ended checkbooks… we pour more and more money in there and our association has created more terror against the USA. Now, I am not saying we abandon Israel, I am saying we need to be honest here. It would be nice if XYZ peace happened with Israel, but how long are we going to spend Billions we DON’T HAVE.
@ Mata
It is important, but your comment was incorrect, so it was worth correcting the record.
Oh… on your minimization of trade deficits
Not sure were you get $1.8 Billion, as you would have found on the link provided (a .gov site) the trade deficit is almost 100% of what we traded in 2009, and nearly 90% of 2010 trade.
2009 2010
exports 9,559 11,272
imports 18,744 20,975
deficit 9,185 9,703
This is not just about trade… I am talking VITAL national interest. It is ok we support them and they not be VITAL to our national interest. And what we gain in intelligence is not worth the added exposure the relationship brings. So that justification does not work. That is like saying to a smoker in a dry barn is really good at working a fire pump.
So in your world… our relationship with Israel does not radicalize people in the mid east against the USA?
We take this risk on, and give aid for altruistic and political reasons… not for vital reasons of national security. We pay a great price for this relationship and we need to move the status of the Palestinians to a conclusion before we lack the funds and ability to support Israel in the future. You say it won’t happen in our lifetimes. Well, lets not use that a measure, but lets say 20 years. Do we want 20 more years of this instability and huge amounts of money spent??? Plus by then China and India will be rivaling our economic output and we will be tied to a policy that disadvantages us? We cannot let this go on forever.
blast, how are millions of Mexican nationals invading our land, bringing along with them their criminal activities, in the national interest of the U.S.? And while you complain about the money we give to Isreal, but say that Mexico serves our national interest, you don’t seem to add in the money given to Mexico indirectly in the services we provide to Mexican citizens, therefore allowing Mexico to not have to take care of their own. Shall we consider the $9 billion a year that my state alone spends on education, medical treatment, food and housing assistance and incarceration for the citizens of Mexico that have no right to be here?
And how ironic that you say that my statements are simply that, opinions. Are we to assume that your statements are something else?
@blast:
Blast, you asked a classic question:
Um, no, Blast.
But the Koran teaches Muslims to always make an ”excuse” for their violence, never to be seen to be violent only for the purpose of attaining worldwide caliphate.
Therefore Muslims have become adept at pretense.
They SAY we are going mad with anger BECAUSE you did “X” “Y” or “Z.”
But that is not the truth.
There are 5 pillars to Islam.
One is their ”charity.”
But their MANDATORY charity is not like the Red Crescent or Cross or even a United Way.
It is for Muslims ONLY.
And there are 8 equal components where the money MUST go.
One of those 8 is to finance jihad for the sake of the spreading of Islam all over the earth.
So, there will always be well-financed fighters against all who are not of Islam, Blast.
If you read the Muslim books, the Koran and Hadith you learn that not everyone must be a physical fighter in Islam.
Only a small percentage have to.
But they should/must be supported by all who cannot fight in the flesh.
Israel’s very existence ”radicalizes” some Muslims.
It drives them – via the financial backing of their system and the charismatic urging of some of their leaders – to fight in the flesh.
OUR very existence does the same thing.
That we have a relationship with Israel is simply another grounds for piling on.
Look around the world.
Does Somalia’s relationship with the Israelis or Americans justify the attack by Muslims on two men, killing both this week?
Did the Nigerians deserve the attack on their police station by Muslims that killed 10, injured 6 this week?
Was the police officer gunned down in Sopore, India murdered by Muslims because of Israel? the USA?
Were the two Buddhist monks in Yala, Thailand dismembered by Muslims because of the USA or Israel?
What did the USA or Israel have to do with the murdering by Muslims of two Coptic Christians in Cairo, Egypt?
A Catholic Bishop’s nephew was shot in the head by a Muslim in Imbada, Egypt. Tie that in with the USA or Israel, please, if you can.
Another Catholic in Imbada, Egypt had his throat slit while sitting in a Catholic Church, again by Muslims. I ask you; tie it in with the USA or Israel.
You cannot, Blast.
Because the cause is much greater than the mere destruction of Israel.
The cause is much greater than getting the USA out of the ME.
The cause is worldwide caliphate.
And any Muslim who desires to play a part is doing so.
He will USE any excuse he can get by with, including ”temporary insanity.”
In fact the use of temporary insanity is the excuse of choice for Muslims who murder inside the USA where it gives them the best chance of being able to carry on their fight even after guilt is established.
@retire05
Mexico is in our VITAL national interest because they are our #2 trading partner (where we export our goods and they buy them) and is our #3 provider of oil, not to mention their strategic location.
And btw, I never said Mexicans coming into the US illegally was a good thing… tossing another straw man out there aren’t ya.
@Nan G,
I am not here to defined actions of Muslims. I posed a simple question… and I think our actions in the middle east do cause blow back. Sometimes we alter our behavior, sometimes we don’t. It is just a fact that we are targeted because of our support of Israel. The longer the Palestinian issue is open the more it will cost us, and if left unresolved for a long time our ability to help Israel will be degraded. Right now there is an open teet that Israel and many others feed on… This is our tax money (and debit), and it is not unlimited.
@blast:
“It is just a fact that we are targeted because of our support of Isreal.”
My God, man, you are just a recording of the MSM, aren’t you?
So, if it is our support of Isreal, why the hell are Muslims bombing Spanish trains, buildings in Tansunia, hotels in Mumbai, India, and hundreds of other places that have nothing to do with Isreal? Have you really bought into that meme?
And tell me, why did the Muslim hordes invade Austria? What it because of Austria’s ties to Isreal?
40% of Malaysia is non-Muslim.
Only a few years ago they had the right to vote, hold office and rise all the way to the top in military service.
But all of that is being taken away.
The following is from “Islamic leaders question non-Muslim rights,” by Asrul Hadi Abdullah Sani for the Malaysian Insider, May 22
40% of the Malaysia people are being disenfranchised and cut out of the political and military systems.
And why?
Because they were finally slightly outnumbered by prolific Muslim breeders.
their ties with the USA or with Israel had NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!
Have you got any idea how petty you sound? Perhaps I should have said the top 25 to appease you? The point was, they are not only an integral ally for HUMINT in the hotbed of the ME, they are also an important trade partner. In fact, in that area of the world, the US needs as many western allies as possible.
Yet with all of that you take issue becaues they were 21st in 2004, and 23rd in 2011?
Pathetic…. and a diversion from the issue at hand.
Well, had you clicked on the link I provided, and I’ll provide it again, you’ll note that as of this year, the trade deficit with Israel is at $1.989.2 bil. Or perhaps you’d like to nitpick a diversion again? Trade deficits move up and down, but Israel’s never been in the top 10 for high trade deficits. However quasi allies, like Mexico, and outright adversaries, like Venezuela, most certainly are. Where’s your gribe, bubba? Where’s our “vital” interest with Russia? Nigeria? Venezuela? Or, INRE Venezuela, does their small oil outweigh HUMINT?
Again, you miss the point. Israel is a trading partner, and far from the highest trade deficit country with which we deal. For that we share intel in a strategically located place, scientific and software advances, and have a stellar trained military having our backs in that region. I might add they did the US a favor when they took out Iran’s nukes before, and Syria’s nuke facilities in the past few years.
And I can’t imagine anything more VITAL for our national security than HUMINT from an ally in the middle east area.
But then, I guess you and I have separate values.
You’ve got to be eff’in kidding me… The global jihad movements don’t like us being in Saudi Arabia either. Shall we just eliminate all presence and all ally ties to every one in the region, and hope they leave us alone?
By god…. glad you’re no longer active, and not officer/strategy material.
blast ISRAEL is earning evry pennys he gets , and it’s still very cheap for what they provide in security,
you would probably get your ass blown up if ISRAEL would stop giving input of what those killers are up to.
@blast: You asked:
You continue to post this same question:
Mata schooled you in this area. Please pay attention and quit whining about giving Israel money.
But all that aside, you seem to suffer under the illusion that if we only eliminated our presence in the Middle East, they would throw down their suicide vests and rejoice, being happy and not being angry at the United States anymore. To whit, you said:
Really? What actions caused blow back when they attacked us in 1801?
Looks like even if we don’t have a “presence” in the Middle East, that the muslims will find a reason to attack us.
.
.
@blast: I will give you something that is not opinion. The intel we get from Israel is vital to our national security. We sure do not get that from any other country except for the British. Australia is a good source, but the Brits and the Ausies are not relying on an extensive intellengence network to stay alive. Israel requires good intel and they pass on vital information for which we pay in foriegn aid. We also get a considerable amount of technology from Israel. I would say that of all the countries we provide aid to, Israel is the best buy!
blast… maybe you’re confused on the trade deficit numbers. You’re taking an annual number. The Census/foreign trade link I put in my #86, with the top 10 trade deficit nations is also by figures by the month and YTD for 2011.
If you use your figures, Israel’s annual trade deficit is Canada’s YTD (1st qtr thru March 2011) deficit…. Like I said Israel’s $1.8 bil YTD (1st qtr), compared to Mexico’s $6.169 bil for the month of March alone, or China’s $18.032 bil for the month of March alone, is a “massive” trade imbalance?
BTW… Ireland’s Mar 2011 trade deficit was twice Israel’s entire 1st qtr trade deficit. Why doesn’t that bother you? What “vital” interest is Ireland to the US? Hey… that’s the argument you want to take. Go for it.
@mata,
you use one quarter’s results to make a point? My annual figures are correct… it is not nit picking. Yes, other nations have higher trade imbalances, and those nations… namely, China and Canada are not even in the same league as Israel. You trying to compare Canada to Israel is laughable… and compare China where we export 91 Billion in goods and is a nation of 1.3 billion people, vs. Israel’s 7.8 million people.
And back to your Canada comparison, we have an enormous trade deficit with Canada because we import 18% of our oil from them.
Actually Mata, your quote included the line “since 1985″ I doubted they are in the top 20, (which I proved correct) but I am not even going to look back (as I mentioned) to 1985 to see how much more inaccurate you have been.
I have not advocated cutting them off Mata… my point has been that Israel is not a great deal for us. We support them more for altruistic and political reasons and our ability to continue this support ad infinitum is not sustainable.
blast, I’m still waiting for you to explain why the Muslims attacked Austria, if they are attacking us only due to our involvement with Israel.
@Randy
oh? that sounds like an opinion. especially when you then compare Israel with the UK etc. I doubt you get to see “all the intelligence” to make such a judgement. I guess you also forget about the fact that we have an Israeli in jail for spying on the USA for Israel. Oh, that is not an opinion, it is a fact.
retire05, show me where I said that Muslims have only attacked us because of our support of Israel. Again, you conflate and drop in straw men.
@blast:
Look at your own comment #94, Blast.
In it you wrote:
Now you want to distance yourself by moving the goalpost and adding the word: ONLY.
You now write:
Can you understand that whatever EXCUSE Muslim give for attacking non-Muslims whether they are Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hundus, animists, agnostics or atheists is JUST and EXCUSE and NOT the CAUSE?
Muslims attacking non-Muslims is WHAT they do to further their goal of worldwide caliphate over the planet.
Any excuse will do.*
That is why is it ridiculous to end our important, vital relationship with Israel over the false perception that it would ease relations with us and Islam.
It would not.
Your ”solution” is to paint ourselves into self-imposed dhimmitude as a way of trying to stave off our destruction by Muslims.
But if you look at how dhimmis are slaughtered on mere pretense in lands where this ”solution” has been adopted you would see it is a false solution.
@nan.
words do matter nan, especially when communicating with messages like this.
@blast:
Fine, Blast.
But your premise is incorrect.
No amount of pre-emptively painting ourselves into Muslim-approved little corners will buy us peace.
It doesn’t work like that.
Nan, I don’t hold the same world view that you do on this subject.
blast, I made an error in juxtaposing my sentence about the “top 20″. What I meant to say was that they’ve been a trading partner since 1985, and are in the top 20. Actually, top 25, as you point out in your petty fashion. That’s what I get for hitting “post comment” before editing. Apologies for the phrase misplacement. So I understand why you made a beeline for a petty point, to distract from your larger ignorance of Israel’s importance to the US as both an ally and a trade partner. There’s not much for you to score points on, eh?
And in the first nine years of our trading with Israel, six of those years we had a surplus. We’ve not had a trade surplus with Israel since 1994.
And what happened in Israel in 1994? They withdrew Israeli forces from Jerico and Gaza via the Oslo Accord. For that concession, Palestinians attacked the Israeli London embassy, Hamas conducts the first suicide bombing in Tel Aviv, and they kidnapped an IDF corporal to demand the release of 200 Hamas militants. Violence started to escalate as Israel started to acquiesce.
Small wonder they wanted to ramp up their defense capabilities…. the more you give the Palestinians and Hamas, the more they want to take.
None of these very real facts still has a hill of beans to do with your constant beratement of our relationship with Israel.
First of all, the $1.8 bill is a 2011 YTD figure, and yes, I use quarters because the trades stats are compiled monthly, and we only have the 1st quarter in for the year of 2011. I like to use the latest stats, but I provided a history of Israel’s trade history with the US in the link… which you chose to ignore… if you wanted to explore further. That same link could take anyone with curiousity to a page of every country’s history by the country index.
But you want to continue on this nitpick path of why Israel is not a worthwhile/ important trading partner – in your skewed view – and that their intel is unimportant to us… ergo why bother? Since you opt to travel that path, let’s examime your trade numbers for the year as you provided in your annual statistics. Now you want to play the population game as a sign of import. OK… I’ll play using your two examples.
Canada’s 2010 trade deficit of $27.6 billion spread over their 2010 estimated population of 33.9 million is $814.16 per individual.
Israel’s $9.7 billion 2010 trade deficit over their 2010 population estimate of 7.28 million is $1341.63 per individual.
Wow… HUGE! So “not a good deal”,/sarc
Or perhaps you believe oil is more important that HUMINT and national security? Funny… I find them both equally important.
So let’s go back to Ireland… and find out how much of “a deal” that nation is, using your set of judgmental standards.
In 2010, we imported $33.89 bil in goods from Ireland. We exported $7.27 bil for a deficit of $26.62 bil. Ireland’s population is considerably smaller than Israel’s, at 4.59 million in 2010. That’s $5799.56 per individual.
And what do we buy from Ireland? Machinery and equipment, computers, chemicals, pharmaceuticals, live animals and animal products. It seems we buy lots of tech outsourced goods from American companies – IBM, Pfizer and Dell – who moved to Ireland to take advantage of their lower rates.
Funny that we don’t hear you whining about our trade deficit with Ireland, or calling them “not such a good deal”.
I think what we have here, blast, is you exercising your anti-semite attitudes.
Blast, of course you don’t hold the same view as Nan G, and she knows that before you spelled it,
like every body here know it and try patiently to educate you with the truth
CONSERVATIVES ARE FOR THE TRUTH and don’t lie
@Mata…
I never said they were not worthwhile or not important… I have just corrected the facts you have made mistakes in representing on this thread.
@ mata.
Yeah. Is that the best you can do? My saying I am not in favor of perpetual aid – I am somehow anti Semitic. That our relationship with Israel is not vital makes me anti Semitic… That our relationship with Israel has other than financial costs… is somehow anti Semitic… These are all things that need to be considered when evaluating a relationship between states… I am AMERICAN first. I want the best for my country. I also have never said to cut off the aid to Israel. I have not attacked Israel or their right to exist. No one here has placed a compelling argument of what we get out of the relationship.
Your accusation is unfair and bs.
Really? So you now present yourself as the editor of petty truths, and conveniently forget your past comments INRE Israel?
And now you say “I never said they were not worthwhile or not important… I have just corrected the facts you have made mistakes in representing on this thread.” uh, okay.
You have said that they cost cost us great amounts of cash, of which I have pointed out to you that is not the case at all. You have said they have no intrinsic value for the cost, and that we’re just doing this for political reasons. Nor is that true. You have dismissed ME intel from Mossad and Shin Beth as unimportant, which is downright dumber than dirt. And you say they serve to radicalize terror against the US and are a liability for us.
But you just wanted to “correct the facts”?
Well, consider your portrayal of feigned innocence as fact also corrected.
Actually, we have. We have discounted your vigorous anti-Israel rhetoric, which I have documented above, with figures over their trade imbalance in ratio to other nations, with references to HUMINT that we do not have since the gutting of our intel under Clinton. We have pointed out our software and science cooperative advances. They are, bar one, one of the best buys for the ever declining dollar.
You simply choose not to accept it because it goes counter to your beliefs that Israel is not worth the petty trade imbalance, is “over valued” as an ally, and is a liability for Americans from the global Islamic jihand movements. Interesting since the 1998 declaration of war by Bin Laden was primarily our presence in Saudi Arabia, not our relationship with Israel.
Considering you’ve now ignored Ireland… where your POTUS is hanging in pubs today… twice, and our trade imbalance to them, or their status as “vital” to the US, what else can one conclude but that you harbor anti-semite attitudes, blast. Why not rail against Venezuela, Russia and Nigeria, who have larger trade imbalances? Nope… just Israel. Let’s ignore all those not so friendly allies, and the “vitalness” of Ireland, and just pick on Israel as worthless. Gee.. what does that say about you?
Brung it on yourself. We tried. You simply can’t see the light.
@mata
We have given them over $100 Billion Dollars Mata and counting!
… and that does not include loan guaranties.
go to table A-1 http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/134987.pdf
Oh… and the $100+++ Billion does not include cost we take directly, and does not include our 3:2 deal with Egypt and money to other countries we give money as part of multi lateral deals.
@MataHarley:
LOL!
Obama is hanging all right!
Did you see the video?
Funniest thing Obama has done in weeks!*
oh and mata, I did not respond to your stupid per person trade deficit numbers because they are meaningless statistics, and we do not give Ireland foreign aid and they have nothing to do with with the present conversation.
As to Canada, they are of vital interest… and yes, we have a trade imbalance. And yes, they are our biggest oil supplier. Their geographic location and resources are vital to our national security.
Neither of your examples has any bearing on our relationship to Israel.
MATA, you know, what get me angry with THOSE BLAST AND GAFFA, IS THAT
they come here like bully, ask questions, get answered, and reply with a debate on a
insignificant word that they claim as a gotcha, and given explaination they don’t understand ;
continiue to incite, push, bully, and finaly come with a depatture note that it’s not good enough therefor invalid, to win the end word, and get out as stupid as they came, with empty brain but happy to have succeded in getting annoying to our good tolerant knowledgeble group
blast, how quickly you love to throw up the straw man argument, but when Mata cleaned your clock by reprinting YOUR OWN WORDS, you seem to go on to another topic to avoid answering the questions posed to you. Now, I understand that is how liberals roll, but it shows that you have accepted the meme that everything is America’s fault; if we just didn’t support Israel so much, all those radical Islamic goat herders would go back to their goats and give up their guns. You even point out that Israel, unlike Canada and Mexico, cannot provide us with oil. Ever wonder why Isreal has no oil? And you also ignored the indirect payments we give Mexico by taking care of Mexican citizens that Mexico doesn’t want to take care of. Do you even know who the richest man in the world is?
Why should we support so strongly Israel? In spite of your whining about how much money we give them, the reason for our continued support for Israel boils down to one: ISLAM.
You can yammer on about foreign aid, oil and any other item you choose to lay blame for, but the bottom line is that we support Israel because it is the only truely free nation in the Middle East, it is the only ally we have in the Middle East and it is the only nation in the region that doesn’t send its citizens to kill Americans.
No, I don’t think you are anti-semitic. I think you are anti-Jewish. There is a difference. And it comes out more clearly with every post you make.
You made the per person trade deficit when you brought up the population of Canada as opposed to Israel, blast. Again, you brung it on yourself.
Ireland, as well as Nigeria, Russia, China and Venezuela have everything to do with the conversation because of your framing of the argument. i.e. Israel wasn’t worth the cost of the trade imbalance. I then gave you the opportunity to show us what a good American you are, and how you apply that same standard of “worth” to other nations’ trade imbalance, that you do to Israel.
But no. You chose to ignore it several times, and continue your debasement of Israel as an integral ally in both trade, intel and software/science advancements.
You framed the argument, you went off on tangents. And now you spend your time trying to backtrack from the off the path breadcrumb trail you opted to travel. However you do not fool me with your one standard for Israel, and a different standard for others. Nor does your knowledge of HUMINT, and it’s import to our global war with the jihad movements, impress me.
retire05 –
I have no problem with people reading the threads and making up their own opinions. Mata was wrong about how much money we have given to Israel… she says not much, I say over $100 Billion and more than that expended because of the open nature of this relationship. I don’t feel my clocks got cleaned by mata… I have stated Israel has a right to exist… I am not against a Jewish state either. But, as a taxpayer I do have a right to say what we get in return is not sufficient to the perpetual state of giving our wealth away. The matter needs to be res0lved. If it is left open and we pour money for the next 20-30 years (or lifetime as Mata mentioned) we will not be in the same world then. China and India will have grown in dominance and we will be holding onto relationships that don’t help with the vital national interests of the US. If this matter gets solved, in 20-30 years things will be much different. By sheltering Israel here and not pushing for a settlement we end up at a strategic disadvantage.
You and Nan are all about Islam and fear of Muslims. We are in a world much bigger than Muslims vs. US, we have other geopolitical issues to be concerned about and longer range needs to be secured. If we don’t attend to those other issues we will not have the economic strength to support our vast military… nor support Israel. These issues are not all mutually exclusive… but focusing just on one keeps us from navigating freely for our own national security.
And frankly… the $100 Billion in direct aid, and the hundreds of billions to other forms of support are not making us substantially stronger, and are not sustainable in the long run anyway.
Yeah… why done Israel not have oil… astound us with your thoughts on this.
Mata
You are just making that up. I said:
I only drew reference to China’s large population… to point out how ridiculous your comparison of the countries was.
Care to correct your comment there mata? “Not the case at all” Over $100 Billion in direct support and Billions more in indirect support. So… not much huh?
blast, I would like to say that I understand what you are saying, but, alas, my brain doesn’t seem to function well under liberal standard. You complain about the $100 billion we have given Israel in aid, and I can assume you feel that way because Americans have to be taxed in order to pay the tab, and it reduces the amont of disposable income that Americans have to put back into our economy. Then you must really have your Hanes in a wad over the est. $25 billion a year that is sent back to Mexico by illegal Mexican nationals working in our country, $25 billion that doesn’t go back into our economy. Yet, while it only takes four years for Mexico to reap what we have given Israel, you seem to ignore that.
No, we are not “much bigger than Muslims vs. the U.S.” but unfortunately, dimwits in this country cannot accept that Islam is not just the greatest threat to the U.S., it is the greatest threat to western civilization. When you have bombs going off in major U.S. cities because of Islam, nothing, not the debt ceiling, not the debt, not Social Security, no welfare, none of those things are going to matter one little damn bit.
But let’s get back to the original point of this thread, shall we and see if you can cut out all the circular crap you have been throwing out there.
Do you think that Israel has a right to exist?
What borders do you think Israel should have?
Do you believe there should be a Palestinian state and if so, why? (and don’t give me that “human rights” b/s)
Where were the Palestinian borders in 1948?
Do you believe Muslims will stop attacking Israel if there is a legitimate Palestinian state?
and, once again
Why did the Muslims attack Austria if [one of] the reason[s] they hate us is due to our involvement with Israel?
Let’s see if you are capable of not only answering those questions but can answer them with honesty.
@blast: No you don’t. Most of us here at FA are not anti-Semitic. We also try to lay out defensible arguments. Are you sure you are not one of the butt heads who has been banned from this site?
@blast
ardon me while I put on my hip waders (they may not be high enough). You are either anti-Semitic or just plain ignorant. Where do you think most of our intel from the middle east comes from? Do you even have any access to TS intel? What world strategy books have you read or classes have you attended? I thought so!
I repeat, blast… it is you who brought up population as some magic criteria as acceptance. You used China and Canada as examples of not being in “the same league” as Israel. Why? Size and population. Per capital via deficit is the only way to equalize that. Like I said, you brung it upon yourself.
But since you want to add China, their 2010 trade deficit of $273.1 billion, and their 1.35 billion in population is $202.30 per individual. So holding to your continued way to frame things, does this make China a more “vital” and “valuable” trading partner than Israel?
Again, I went thru this above, blast. Pull the cotton out of one of your ears so facts don’t blow thru so easily.
Between 1985 and 2004, the annual foreign aid to Israel average $3 billion. With the Bush 2007 increase, that’s going to go up to a whoppin’ $3.1 billion per year in the next decade. Humm… don’t we give more than that in incentives to the oil companies? LOL Isn’t that chump change in the world of Obama/Pelosi/Reid spending?
There is a difference between foreign aid and guaranteed loans. You cannot present them as the same, and expect an ounce of credibility from me.
I have nothing to correct. Israel is one of our best buys all around.
You, however, have a lot of backtracking to do for your misrepresentation, and hypocritical standards for what makes other nations “vital and valuable” as trading partners, and a second one for Israel. I assure you, I won’t be holding my breath for you to do so. But you have revealed a side to yourself that is severely unappealing as both a human, and as an American.
@blast:
Oversimplify much, Blast?
Neither Retiro5 nor I could be said to be ”all about Islam and fear of Muslims.”
When a hasty generalization includes an ad hominum attack it really is a grasping at straws.
Basically, you are admitting to being undereducated about current events, but you couch your own shortcoming in a nasty attack as if Retiro5′s and my awareness of what Muslims are doing in the world is somehow a fault on our parts.
Don’t take my word for it.
Take the word of a man on the ground in Egypt.
Anba Damian is a Bishop in Egypt’s Coptic Christian Church.
He’s seeing it at a much closer view than I am from ex-Muslims and news.
His warning is for all of us who live where there are fewer than 50% of the population Muslim.
retire05, what blast doesn’t disclose is that the aid he wants to quote spans decades…. as the CRS report I have linked stated. Since the middle 1940s to be exact (using the table in the link that *I* provided in my way earlier comment.”. Please note that I provided links to the CRS reports and stats, and blast merely runs off at the mouth.
He also tries to wrap up loans with aid. Hummm.. now what’s the difference between a loan, and aid? Could be be payback is expected? It’s called accounts receivable on the books.
It’s this compulsion he has to paint Israel as the quintessential devil while he gives a pass to other nations.
@mata,
Mata, you are making it up. I never raised up Canada’s population, I brought up their oil which made them vital. China is a major world power and has the largest population. Yes, we run trade deficits with both and the over all trade with either country eclipses the what we trade with Israel— you are trying to compare Israel with a data point that I have never ever seen used… and no one does, because it is ridiculous to draw comparisons to those other nations.
You have not addressed the $100+ Billion in assistance and that does not include loan guaranties. If you actually read what was written… you would see loan guaranties were in addition to the over $100 Billion we have poured into Israel in direct monetary aid. THAT IS SIGNIFICANT. You act like it is nothing.
So you were wrong about the ranking… you were wrong about the length of the ranking, and you qualified $100 Billion as not a great amount of cash.
And of all the folks who toss around the monicker anti-Semitic… learn the definition “One who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews.”
I have no problem with Jews. My issue is with giving money to another country with no end in sight. We have given Billions and no definable way out. People here want to make the case it is worth the intel, or whatever. I do not. That does not make me an anti Semite.
@nan. I might be over simplifying your voluminous argument and his, but large entries you have made here were directed at the Koran, and Muslims etc.
Mata, what blast has done is to try to change the dialog. He wants to go off on roads that are unnecessary to take, simply to avoid the initial subject. We have given Israel $100 in total aid, while we allow Mexicans to send that much back to their homeland in just four years. And yes, that money sent to Mexico is just as removed from our economy as is the money we give Israel.
And what about the $1 billion in “loans” that Obama just forgave for Egypt, a nation that is going to come back and bite us in the rear end? Where is blast’s concern for that? Or the additional Billion Obama wants to give Egypt?
Projection, Mata, projection.
@ Mata….
Mata…. I posted the link to the State Department Report on the Foreign Aid to Israel!!!!!!! That statement is a lie…
http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/134987.pdf
blast, do you intend to answer the questions, or are you just going to go off on different tangents, once again?
blast… I know it may be difficult, so take off your shoes. $101 bil in assistance since 1946… 65 years.
Divide $101 bil by 65 and what’s the average annual for that money you’re freaked out about?
Now you’re worried about loan guarantees? Do you even know what a loan guarantee is? If you have a VA loan on your house, you have a federally guaranteed loan. The government will take the hit if you default.
Planning on having Israel default? Loan guarantees don’t count, bubba.
Next you’ll be whining about the $52 bil in military and economic grants since 1974. Let’s see… $52 bil over 37 years is another $1.4 bil annually in grants. Add that to the average of $1.4 bil over 65 years, and that’s a grand total of $2.8 billion a year in grants and foreign aid to Israel…. and not really because the grants only started in 1974. So the total of the $101 bil in aid, and $52 bil in grants, divided by the 65 years is really $2.35 bil annually.
Like I said… best buy in the region.
@ mata….. I have not conflated giving $100 Billion with loan guaranties…
“
I SAID AND THAT DOES NOT EVEN INCLUDE LOAN GUARANTIES – I did not put loan amounts into the $100 + billion… those numbers are clean and right out of the government report. You also missed that I did include a bit about how we are also obligated to give Egypt 2 Dollars for every 3 we give to Israel as an agreement to bolster peace between those two countries. This also is an unending spigot of money draining out of our country with no end in sight.
@blast… dearie… the link that you provided in your comment #120 is the same link I provided in my comment #23.
A bit johnny come lately to the party, aren’t you? And you’re still misrepresenting the amount of money with Israel over 65 years… and you’re doing so deliberately.
@Mata
Mata, those # are increasing at a fast rate, in the past 13 years we added nearly $40 Billion to the total… so don’t try to minimize the expenditure. And again, that does not include the 3:2 with Egypt and money we give to the other counties in the region… And you even said it would continue for the rest of our lives…
@retire (#135):
I just want to address the “Mexican” part of this, without getting any futher into the other part of it.
Those Mexicans worked darn hard for that money, providing services to the USA at prices generally far below those that would have to be paid to American citizens, and saving all of us huge amounts of money that we are able to invest in other sectors of the economy. California’s Central Valley farmers can’t find anyone to pick the fruits and vegetables with California supplies to the nation, other than Mexican and Central American workers who do send some of it back to feed their own families.
We Americans derive huge value from Mexican labor. I dare say that the lion’s share of the wages paid to Mexican labor is paid by Republicans, by the way. This is based on a supposition of who most likely owns the farms and food processing plants and factories and construction firms which employ commercial labor and the private homes which employ domestic labor.
You think, one supposes, that farmers and other American business and American homeowners should be allowed to continue hiring said workers but said workers should only be able to spend their money in the USA?
By this logic, Toyota and Honda shouldn’t be able to ship any of their profits from American-manufactured automobiles back to Japan.
- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
blast, I see you continue to avoid answering my questions.
You are rapidly becoming the joke of the day.
@ mata:
Two of those three links work, none of them were the same url. If you are referring to “Congress Watch” – I posted to the report they excerpted the data that you have no just claimed that I miss represented. Maybe if you read the real report you would see the amount we spent directly and understood the indirect costs as well.
P.S. Blast may or may not be correct in his loss to benefit analysis, but he’s offering serious arguments, supported by objective data. He also has the non-enviable task of playing chess with a half dozen people at once. It would be nice, out of a sense of fair play, for people to restrict their attacks to his arguments, without so many snide, personal remarks (e.g. “joke of the day” — how on earth does that advance the discussion? It’s just sophomoric.).
- LW/HB
Why I do believe it’s you who’t trying to inflation the figure, blast…. a tad of fear mongering without giving the real data. Why someone who didn’t know better would think that was $100 bil a year, and not over 65 years.
I repeat… first pages of the CRS report. The average of the $3 bil in aid will be increasing to $3.1 bil in aid. Like I said, best bang for the buck in the region.
@ retire
regarding Mexican citizens… I am not answering you because it has nothing to do with the topic Israel. I addressed your inquiries earlier in #97
And I also did not address your ramblings about Muslin attacks in Austria… since neither subject are salient to this discussion.
@ mata
Do I have to spoon feed you mata? I posted the # which was accurate. You indicated it was for 65 years, yep, the report I linked to showed that. I directed people to the table that showed it. Your report showed the same data, since it was copied from the report I listed. <<<< http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/134987.pdf >>>> I did not inflate the figure. The figure is the figure. You want to keep doing this “for our lifetimes”… which if you mean 20-30 years +… it will be hundreds of billions more. Not a great value, and now we are on opinion.
oh, and you totally ignore the cost by our requirement to send 2 bucks for to Egypt for every 3 we send to Israel… or the other money we spend. You want to make it seem like no biggie. Just like when we argued about Iraq and its costs. You seek to minimize all costs to your wasteful foreign policy, push to cut taxes and then bitch about the huge deficits… We need to be paying the bills! There is not a “lifetime” of aid to dole out.
openid, and just what are blast’s legitimate points except he doesn’t like the U.S. giving aid to Israel and thinks it is not a good value?
“I think it’s important to try to walk a kilometer in the sandals of a Palestinian Arab and understand that they really do have some legitimate complaints.”
Why don’t you do that? Pick the West Bank or perhaps the Gaza Strip. Be sure to wear the Star of David and let them know that you are 1/2 Jewish. Get back to us after your trip.
“we European Americans are living on land stolen from the indigenous American people (and both Texas and California, stolen from the Mexicans)”
Well, then, as an “indigenous” American AND a Texan, I suggest you take your happy ass back to Europe where you belong and get off MY land. What right do you have to live here? So go, back up your mouth with your actions. But you do have a bit of a problem; you are 1/2 Jewish, so you really don’t have a homeland in Europe, or at least one you can trace back to the early times of your people (you see, I’m applying the Arab rule here; you are 1/2 Jewish and they use the one drop rule) and you really don’t belong on MY land. Perhaps you are destined to wander the four corners of the earth looking for a place to light.
Sorry, openid, you destroyed your credibility posts ago.
@retire:
If you are interested in a mutually respectful discussion on the matters in your #149, I’ll be happy to engage you. Otherwise not.
- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
blast, the link to the CRS report was in the below paragraph:
This was the same report you linked to in comment #120, but updated for 2010. If the link didn’t work, why didn’t you simply ask?
I’ve read that report several times since the original 2008 version is linked on my favorites in a file since that time. I understand all the costs. That is, apparently, your problem. There is no getting around that $101 bil, divided over 64 or 65 years is not the fiscal drain you attempt to portray. Loan guarantees are not a loss unless Israel defaults. And the amount of loan grants over that time, of which the results of those grants may end up in a shared fiscal and/or technological development is also not a wasted endeavor.
You’ve never once attempted to put that “$100 billion in direct aid” in the context of the span of decades. Nor have you considered that $1 billion in the 40s was considerably more in adjusted dollar value than $3 billion is today. You simply represent it as a heinous amount of money down the drain, and you do so deliberately.
You’re like a damned parrot, blast. The report I linked to (which the link is broken, but you didn’t bother to ask for a good link) is the same data that clearly states that since 1985, the amount of direct aid to Israel averages about $3 bil annually. Which I plainly stated in my comment #23. You decided to take the very same report, and chose to pick on the $100 bil figure, which is really $101 bil, and try to argue that point.
Now blast, if it’s $3 bil annually since 1985, are you incapable of figuring 26 years x $3 bil annual and coming up with $78 billion? But since that figure is actually since 1946, it’s even less than $3 billion annually for the total costs.
We are presenting the same data. I am placing it in the context of annual, and distinctly said so. You, on the other hand, have just tossed out the figure without referencing over how long that money has been disbursed.
Now who’s playing the games with math here, bubba?
As far as Egypt, I’m not ignoring it. I stated on another thread that I’m royally PO’d that Obama had forgiven that debt. Had he not aided in booting out Mubarak, I might have been more forgiving. But forgiving the debt to what Egypt will be after September is unforgiveable by me. So your accusation that I consider that “no biggie” is yet another of your misrepresentations to support your losing talking points. Egypt used to be an ally of both the US and Israel. It is not any more.
Mata, I represent it as it is. It is a fact, I linked to the table. $100+ Billion is a lot of money and you have represented that the outflow of money will continue for our lifetimes. Again, you are minimizing it, while you claim I am maximizing it. People can read the report >>>> http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/134987.pdf table A 1, as I have repeated. yes, it covers 65 years, and in the past 13 years about $40 Billion has gone out the door for aid to Israel. That is a fact too. Cut it as you like it Mata. The facts don’t lie. The report also mentions the 3:2 (for every three dollars to Israel we are obligated to send two dollars to Egypt. We need to get this affair settled. Waiting a “lifetime” is not a good enough answer mata, we have been paying out for 65 years already. We need to pay our own bills now, not give away money while we are broke.
openid, what would we have to discuss? You have already stated your opinion, and I think it is pure lunacy. You have also shown that you are not very knowledgable about history, world or U.S. Perhaps that is due to the pathetic educational system of California. I don’t know.
But I guess you view my using your own words against you as a “disrepectful”. Here is what is disrepectful; you’re coming on this board and spouting utter nonsense. Give the Arabs that were displaced from Israel $1 million? What about the Jews that were displaced from Arab lands? How much you want to give them?
How about this? You send me a million bucks for the land your family stole from mine. Oh, and I want interest on that money. And if you don’t give me the money, I will consider I then have the right to fire rockets at your house and burn whatever church you attend. Deal?
And in about 13 years, about $325 billion has been sent back to Mexico from Mexican citizens who are in our nation illegally. And for that trouble we have dead police officers, dead and raped teenage girls and dead Catholic nuns.
What a bargain our friendship with Mexico is, right, blast?
Now, are you going to answer my questions or continue to dodge them showing you really have no intention of showing your true colors?
retire 05, hi, I don’t think It’s fair for blast or gaffa to pick on what ISRAEL GET MONEY OR PAYEMENTS FOR SERVICES THEY EVIDENTLy dont get for free.
if they would bring other places which get the money for some unknown reason from GOVERNMENT,
I’t might be very interesting to find out who get how much and for what services;
furthermore how about how much the UN WORLD ORGANISATION GET FROM THE GOVERNMENT,
LET THEM BE FAIR AND GET OFF THE BACK OF ISRAEL AND COME HERE WITH A LIST OF EXPANSES FROM THE GOVERNMENT OF THE USA FOR THEIR OWN FAVORITE PLACES IN THE WORLD,
then let those TROLL LIBTARD tell us how much money is given in executive orders from the president or approuved to X Y Z in secret chambers with the BROTHERS HOOD OR NO HOOD
THEN THEY WOULD JUST HAVE TO SHUTT UP.
@retire: Can you please be specific?
In what respect was my historical knowledge deficient? In what way is the educational system of California deficient (relative to that of your professed home state of Texas)?
With regard to your comments concerning how long I’d live if I walked through Gaza or the West Bank, it’s not a relevant question. What would be relevant would be how long I’d have lived prior to WWI, when Jews and Arabs lived among each other in relative peace, as they had for a couple millenia, give or take the occasional tribal spat, which occurs among all tribal people.
I explained what happened. The Brits and Euros and us Americans thought it would be a good idea to create a Jewish homeland. This led to massive in migration, as I explained earlier (#8). This is what created the problem. This problem was compounded after WWII, when the West imposed a partition, with which the Arabs didn’t agree.
Let’s say that we’d lost WWII to the Germans and the Germans decided to partition Texas between Anglos and Mexicans and a ranch which had been in your family for generations was given to the Mexicans without compensating your family. How would you feel about it?
I made it clear that I was simply offering a personal opinion for the way that I’d approach the problem. I find it perplexing that you seem to take such personal offense.
With regard to the history of Texas, here’s how I understand it. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
The Mexicans owned Texas. They wanted settlers to develop Texas. Americans were given the right to settle and acquire property, so long as they respected the laws of Mexico. When a critical mass of Anglos moved in, they decided that they didn’t want to have anything to do with Mexico. So they basically welched on the deal. It’s as if Canada invited Americans in to become landowners in Southern Alberta, and Americans took Canada up on its generous offer, provided that the Americans respected Canadian law and then, once a critical mass accrued, said Americans declared Southern Alberta to be a sovereign, independent nation.
As I said, you can’t change reality, but I was simply stating that reasonable people should try to understand the Palestinian point of view, and this might lead to fair and acceptable solutions to an otherwise intractable problem.
- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
You must speak the same language as Larry. I did no such thing as “represent that outflow of money will continue for our lifetimes”. Lies, lies and damn more absolute lies from you. Bush’s 2007 increase for for $6 bil more over a decade, which would up the $3 bil to $3.1 bil annually. That only goes thru to 2017. Now just where did I say that “outflow of money will continue for our lifetimes”? How would I possibly know what Congress or a US POTUS would direct beyond what has already been allocated?
Chutzpah on your part.
You claim I’m minimizing it. I simply state it’s the best deal in the region. You, however, are deliberately inflating the price without pointing out the decades of aid rolled into one figure.
As far as Egypt, that was based on the Israeli-Egyptian Peace Treaty in 1979. Since Egypt has booted out the leader who was a party to that treaty, and thus far the new powers are not making noises about accepting that, the figure would hopefully go away. No peace treaty with Israel, no foreign aid for that reason. Whether this POTUS does that will remain to be seen. But as far as I’m concerned, Egypt can live on locust until we see what emerges, and whether they reimpose a blockade.
@retire05, What a bargain our friendship with Mexico is, right, blast?
I never said friendship with Mexico… I said they were vital to our national security. Mexico is the 3nd largest supplier of oil to the United States. They are the second largest consumer of US goods.
I have not dodged anything. I indicated previously – twice- “I never said Mexicans coming into the US illegally was a good thing.”
@ Mata
I guess you are living in LaLa land Mata, because this contradicts your statement…
openid.aol.com/runnswim, How can you try to make peace and understand your neighbord,
when he want to kill you and your family, youtryed at the beginning to talk no he continiue his deathwish on you, you try to ignore, well you get some reminder with a rocket in your child’s bedroom,
you did everything to do the best you could, except for moving out, well no certanly not it’s my house and they wont have my backyard or my garage or my guest room. but someone else from another country tell you to give it to them half of what you have,
would you like to have your neighbord sleep in your guess room with a couple of grenades for you when you will be sound asleep, well we must try to understand and share, WHAT? SHARE WITH A KILLER?
openid, you can go back a millenium if you want. But that is not the reality on the ground. Arabs and Jews have not gotten along since the days of Mohammed. So you showed that you know little about that history. The only time that the Arabs have been peaceful with the Jews, since the 7th century, is when the Arabs were outnumbered.
Now, here is a brief history of Texas:
Mexico was a land of Indians. The Spanish came and conquered them and gave Mexico its language. Those Spanish then moved on to Texas. Texas was a land that belonged to the indiginous Americans, Commanche, Kiowa, Sioux, Crow and the Spanish chased them off the land. When Mexico was having Indian problems, it invited Anglos from the States to settle in the land of Tejas, thinking the frontiersmen of Tennessee, Kentucky, and other states would help them fight the Indians, especially the Commanche. Mexico told the new Texicans that they would be Mexican citizens with all the guarantees given to Mexican citizens. So…..the Texicans lived by the rules, even the one that required them to convert to Catholicism.
But Mexico city was a long way off, and all Mexico did was increase the taxes on the Texicans, giving them no representation in the goverment in Mexico City. (sound familiar?) Eventually, the Texicans, not being represented by their own government rebelled (again, sound familiar) after Santa Anna abolished the Mexican Constitition. Mexico welched on the deal it had made with the settlers, not the other way around as you presented it. War ensued. We won; they lost and we kept the land they lost (again, sound familiar?).
I frankly don’t give a damn about the pov of the Palestinians. If they want a “right of return” let them return to Jordan, Syria and Egypt who owned the disputed lands to begin with. But Egypt didn’t want them. Neither did Jordan. You see, the Palestinians are so radical, and such cretens, that even other Arab states don’t want them.
Now that you have had a history lesson, I suggest you study a little harder from now on.
blast, if Mexico is vital to our national security, why are more Americans dying at the hands of illegal Mexicans than we are losing in Iraq and Afghanistan combined? Mexico is not vital to our national security, it poses a danger to our national security. Or do you think that bullets fired from the Mexican side that land in the offices of the El Paso City Hall is not a security issue? How about gun battles on Interstate 10 between Mexican cartel members?
When are you going to answer my questions I asked you many posts ago? Your dodge shows much.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
So, how does it feel to have mirrored the exact same opinion of today’s Jews of Israel as Iran’s Ahmadinejad?
Helen Thomas?
Does it not bother you that most of the population of Israel’s Jews today are natives?
That some of the others…..
Are from Ethiopia?
Are from Yemen?
Are from Iran?
Are from Vietnam?
Are from Argentina?
Are from South Africa?
Are from Cuba?
@blast, are you out of your ever lovin’ pea sized brain?
I state there will never be a peace agreement between the Arab world and Israel in our lifetime, and you read that as a statement by me on the future of foreign aid and trade??
Good god… what drugs are you taking, dude…. Lay off ‘em.
Read this, genius. If the Arab world wipes Israel off the face of the map… there’s been no peace agreement and we’ll make you just ducky happy that the US won’t be wasting dollars on Israel.
If the Arab world goes to war with Israel, hopefully we’ll have a POTUS with the balls to fight with our ally. So we’ll be doing more than foreign aid. THat’s assuming that tiny nation and it’s citizens survive the first attack.
None of the above has whit to do with what you said I said. Lies, lies and more damn lies. And all, apparently, because you make delusional leaps to assumptions that have no cogent path.
@retire05 you are really exhausting.
I don’t know what question you have man… I probably blew it off because it was not salient to the conversation. I have nothing to avoid from you. Repose your question and I will give a crack at it.
If you don’t understand national security and oil, you are hopeless. Our economy runs on oil. If our 3rd largest source (Mexic0) went dry… that would devastate the economy. And our exports fuel our economy… and Mexico is the second largest customer of US goods. I guess you can’t keep two ideas in your head at the same time. Mexico is vital and we need to fix the border/immigration issue.
@ Mata:
So if there is no peace treaty in your mind, we “don’t” need to give them aid or we “do” need to give them aid.
And if you don’t understand the value of HUMINT in the heart of the ME, you are also hopeless. Our national security functions primarily on HUMINT from our limited resources, and that of our allies.
Pot.. kettle. Nervy.
blast, if you were a Marine, I have to assume you at least have a high school education and have the ability to read. Doesn’t appear to be the case. Just what does the status of no peace agreement between Israel and the Arab region at large… of which there has never been one and, today, less likely than ever… have to do with you accusing me of stating the future of foreign trade and aid status?
blast, what question? How about questions? You have been dodging one that I have asked twice. So please, don’t piss on my leg and tell me its raining.
You don’t answer my questions because your answers would condemn you. It is just that simple. You come here to play your little simpleton mindgames, dashing and dodging, spinning and weaving but when backed into a corner you play stupid. The problem seems to be that you really aren’t playing.
@Mata, Human intelligence is very important, but it helped so much protect the thousands who died on 9/11, or the attacks in Spain or the UK. Your foreign policy is a shambles, failed to protect our country, and is not sustainable and is leading our country into massive debt and ruins.
And you never addressed #167
@blast, oh no, blast. I’m not following you into your insanity. US foreign aid to Israel is a distinctly different subject than whether there is ever a peace agreement between Israel and the Arab region at large. They are not related. Never have been. Never will.
You accused me of saying something I didn’t. I’m calling you out on your reading disability which leads you to stubbornly sticking to outright lies. I’m not playing your diversion games. Nor is your question worthy of an answer. In fact, it’s not even a worthy question.
Mata, given your logic, (or lack of it) we have to support Israel because they live in a bad neighborhood, and you see that nothing will change in a lifetime, but our aid has nothing to do with it. If their neighborhood is bad for a lifetime you would give then aid for a lifetime. We actually have given to them for a lifetime already. At some point we have to stop the dole to both sides.
And to the rest of your comment, I hear uncle…
Not surprising someone as delusional as you, and diving into every rabbit hole possible to escape your own comments, would hear imaginary voices.
retire05, I asked what was your question or questions. Most of what you say is pretty convoluted, so if you want to find something to condemn me on, have at it. Ask them or keep your mouth shut about it.
@ Mata… does laughing out loud by myself make me crazy when I read your last comment? LOL
Naw… might be the only sane reaction and comment you’ve made on this entire thread.
@ mata,
Haha…
You guys are making valiant and intelligent efforts, but trying to argue facts, with reason, never goes across with these libs. Pointless.
They truly are different.
Esd
blast, try my post, #128. You will find the questions there. Unless laziness is as equal to your personality as is dishonesty.
And don’t ever tell me to shut up again. And yes, I condemn you for being a dishonest, lying bastard. If you were a Marine, which I doubt, I bet they celebrated the day you mustered out.
Or did you muster out on a blue discharge?
@retire (#162):
I’ve carefully reviewed the history of the relationships between Palestinian Arabs and Jews, and I don’t agree with you that I have in anyway misrepresented this.
These are my sources:
http://www.h-net.org/~fisher/hst373/readings/goldschm.html
Above author’s website:
http://www.personal.psu.edu/axg2/index.html
http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_the_reasons_for_the_conflict_between_the_Jews_and_Arabs
http://www.wwco.com/religion/israel.php
As to another matter, thank you for clarifying and presenting the other side of the story concerning the Texas War for Independence. I did learn something from this otherwise unpleasant exchange.
- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
openid, perhaps you should stick with what you know. History is obviously not your forte.
Weisenthal? Does that mean “self loathing Jew”?
Here is a link that contains the UN resolution that established Israel and was supposed to have established an Arab state, which was rejected by the Arabs, including a map of the way the land was supposed to have been split up. Perhaps this can clarify some of the history that is in dispute. FYI, I am not Jewish.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/parttoc.html
another vet hi, you did it again, thank you , very interesting,to know that the ARABS wanted to bring many ARABS at the time tohave a break in to the JEWISH POPULATION,
that tell me they where not happy and they never will be, so they will forever live and die unhappy,
as oppose to the JEWISHS ARE USING THEIR COUNTRY LIKE A TREASURE OF GRAPES AND HONEY,
WITH MARVELOUS RESULTS IN A STILL VERY SHORTH TIME BETWEEN THE TIME OF EMIGRATION AND TODAY, MAKING THEIR NEIGHBORD BLACK WITH ENVY.
AND HATE
@another vet:
Terrific page.
I was looking at photos of what is now Israel from when the Ottoman (Islamic) empire ruled over it.
There were Jews as well as Muslims living in Jerusalem at the time.
But what a contrast!
This video asks:
If the Al Aqsa Mosque and Dome of the Rock are so important to Muslims, why were they overgrown with weeds in the 19th and early 20th centuries?
And here is the PDF of the book those photos are from.
“A Camera Crusade Through the Holy Land,” by Dwight L. Elmendorf.
It is pretty obvious that the so-called 3rd most important holy place of Islam wasn’t cared about one whit before the modern state of Israel was formed.
Look at those pictures!
It has all been a PR campaign from 1948 onward to simply wipe Israel off the map.
If Muslims ever do get control of that land mass it will be destroyed just like the Gazans destroyed the greenhouses they were given when Israel left Gaza a few years ago.
@retire05: Don’t worry retire, he studiously ignored my comments, #103 because it doesn’t fit his narrative that if we would just slap Israel in the face, then them poor old misunderstood muslim terrorists would be soooo nice to us.
@blast for brains – I would try to see things your way on this issue, but I just can’t get my head that far up my azz…
retire05, you are an ass. Only since I said I would address your questions will I at this point. Outside of that you are a f-n ass and I have no use for you for the personal attack.
Do you think that Israel has a right to exist? I have answered that question (“Unless laziness is as equal to your personality as is dishonesty”- imitating you).
What borders do you think Israel should have? That remains to be seen, it has to be agreed between the parties.
Do you believe there should be a Palestinian state and if so, why? (and don’t give me that “human rights” b/s) There should be as the table has been set already for this and denying them a “state” would continue this stalemate.
Where were the Palestinian borders in 1948? Why don’t you google “green line (1949)” for the borders following the 1948 War, or google UN Partition 1947.
Do you believe Muslims will stop attacking Israel if there is a legitimate Palestinian state? I think once a plan is adopted (with general support of the people of both sides) the level of attacks will drop. That does not preclude lone wolfs or others who might continue.
Your question about Muslims attacking Austria… ummm, are you speaking about the Ottoman wars in Europe in 1500 – Siege of Vienna? If I were you I would be afraid to let my hand hang over the side of the bed… those Muslim invaders and crocodiles are under your bed.
@anticsrocks
You have to look back to 1801? Are you a total idiot? Maybe we should look over our shoulder at the UK… those dastardly people burned the capital August 24, 1814!
As to the rest of your comment… I did not see it as a question, just you bloviating about how you think Mata was right and I was wrong. Fine, you have your opinion. I did not care what you thought then, or now.
blast, let me tell you, that you are the ASS in here and IDIOT on top of you’re IGNORANT
SCRIBBLE, NOW GO WASH YOU’RE MOUTH AND YOU’RE FINGERS AND DON’T FORGET
YOU’RE KEYBOARD. that’s what you get for attacking my friends here who have shown more patience than you deserve, now get lost in you’re ditch
and dig deeper.
@ilovebeeswarzone
Your friends are myopic in their views and have heaped much worse insults my way already. Just because I disagree with an unending foreign aid to Israel I have been called anti-Semitic and a liberal. Funny thing the top vote getter in the CPAC Presidential straw poll who got 1/3 of the votes holds the same opinion to foreign aid. So does the darling of the Tea Party folks… Sen Paul. Instead wackos here want to harken back to 1801 or 1500′s to justify their phobic sense about Muslims. I really wish they got national attention so more people could see how ridiculous they sound… of course they would blame the MSM for either not covering their paranoia.
Oh, and the extent of your participation on this site really shows me how little you have in your cerebral quiver.
Again I will have to correct your continued attempts to tell people what I said, blast. After an ongoing set of repetative remarks, of which I listed excerpts above, I concluded you have anti-semite views. It is not because you object to “unending foreign aid”, as you seem to believe. It’s because you hold one standard for Israel when you decide what is valuable in an ally, and another standard for others.
@blast: You wrote:
And therein lies the problem, blast.
Sorry, but Hamas has already said any plan that leaves an Israeli state in existence is merely a stepping stone to destroying Israel.
Here are excepts from Hamas co-founder Mahmoud Zahar:
You can find the link in #32.
So, are you admitting that Hamas has to be done away with before any peace plan has a chance to succeed?
Hamas has made it clear that they have no intention of allowing Israel to exist….and at least one time the people of Gaza voted Hamas in, so THEY, too, seem with Hamas’ program.
Let’s forget about how ”lone wolfs” emerge, and just concentrate on Hamas’ institutionalized policy involving liberating all of their section of the world from the indignity of having to be ruled over by non-Muslims, namely Israel.
Did Obama say we had to wait until Hamas was gone?
No, he did not.
Obama said Hamas must say the magic words* and then Israel MUST agree to become two small states with non-Muslims pouring in and all people in range of missiles and rockets.
Good thing for Israel that Hamas will never say those magic words.*
*The Magic Words: Israel has a right to exist and we, Hamas, recognize Israel and will keep peace with her.
blast will never admit that the war cry of the Muslims in the 9th century, the 17th century and the 21the century has NOT changed, nor has their purpose for war. When the Muslims raided the Berber lands, they did it for the same reason they now commit war by flying planes into tall buildings. And the war cry was the same, as was the goal.
So blast thinks I am an ass. Coming from him, that is a compliment because unlike blast, I don’t buy into the left wing media that tells me what to think. And to sweeten the pie, blast will tell others that he doesn’t care what they think, yet he comes back time after time.
Here is what I think, blast: you are a left wing looney who takes your marching orders from the left. You support every meme they write on the reasons that the Muslims hate us. You don’t bother to do your own research, and discount those that do. You are uninformed, so you try to hide the fact that you are uninformed by discounting history. Why do you bother with us if you are in such disagreement with us? Do you think you have the power to change our minds? You don’t. Islam is the one greatest threat to western civilization and you refuse to accept that.
I guess you feel sorry for all those starving Gazans that don’t really exist.
@Nan G:
The fact of the matter is that most these ‘land for peace’ deals are wholeheartedly supported by the left with seemingly a lockstep mindset regarding the issue. It is practically impossible to change that mindset.
The ‘Palestinian People’ is a total fabrication by the Arabs, and statehood a guise to attain back what they lost in the 1967 war without the loss of any footing on their part.
It’s a farce, and notwithstanding anything to the contrary, there will Never, Ever, be peace between the Arabs and Israel fanatics who control their respective countries. Egypt, honored their treaty, now Egypt is going down.
The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey shows that 71% (only 71%???)of Likely U.S. Voters believe that Palestinian leaders should be required to acknowledge Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state. Just eight percent (8%) disagree and say this is not essential for a Middle Eastern peace agreement. Another 21% are not sure. (To see survey question wording, click here.)
While considered essential, polling last fall found that 64% of voters believe such recognition from the Palestinians is unlikely.
Whatever the terms of an agreement, only 15% of voters think it is even somewhat likely that there ever will be peace between Israel and the Arab world, and that includes just two percent (2%) who say it’s Very Likely. Seventy-eight percent (78%) think peace between the two long-time enemies is unlikely, with 27% who say it is Not At All Likely.
This survey was taken prior to President Obama’s new Middle East initiative announced Thursday that requires recognition of Israel’s right to exist but also says Israel’s borders should be limited to those it held prior to the 1967 Six-Day War. Most voters think the growing political unrest in the Arab world, further encouraged by the president’s plan, is putting Israel at greater risk in both the short- and long-term. http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/israel_the_middle_east/71_say_middle_east_peace_agreement_must_recognize_israel_s_right_to_exist
Personally, I believe the Arabs will eventually ‘agree’ to Israel’s right to exist simply to attain their objective there….while crossing their fingers….and then go about business as usual….
for doesn’t it teach in the Qur’an that in the war with the infidel, the ends justify the means?
@ilovebeeswarzone:
Ms. Bees, do not feed the animals. Some are meek, and generally lovable, while others bite back. It isn’t the fact that you feed them. It’s simply their nature. Disregard what Blast has said, in his post #190. I find your comments, for the most part, quite inspiring, and ofttimes humorous. Most of us here enjoy your musings on different subjects.
Hey, retire05, gas has dropped to $3.75 at Racetrac here…..started just as soon as O’Bullshit left the country.
Just in time for Memorial Day and for him to breeze back in and claim it is due to his ‘policies’……
@johngalt:
I second that!
Ilike that like button when it concern me,
thank you, I have a hard time staying quite when someone insult my smarts friends whom I find so tolerant when dealing with ignorants or fakers that are trying to promote their desperate falling down side.
@blast:
I haven’t joined in this discussion with you, as you seemed to be engaged with many differing sides at once, and still are, it seems, however, I feel that I should point out a few things here, from your first posting in #17.
You stated;
That statement presupposes that Israel has not made contributions, whether directly to American interests, or indirectly, through contributions to the world, that America benefits from. I believe that you are mistaken on this.
Just a few contributions by Israel, to American interests directly, or worldwide, from which America benefits;
And that is but a small listing of contributions made by Israeli citizens, or companies, of which many have received either direct, or indirect, help, from that $100+ Billion you have mentioned over and over. Whether or not these items, along with the others, are worth that $100+ Billion in aid that we have given them, is debatable. In my opinion, they have helped to develop ideas and inventions that have improved our lives, that is worth more than that amount.
@retire (#182). I would suggest that your 2nd remark in comment #182 crossed a line. Recently, there was a contributor permanently banned from this blog for making remarks of a personal nature which were far less personally offensive than this.
I am really having a problem understanding why some people cannot tolerate honest differences of opinion. My remarks on this thread have been very mild. I immediately acknowledged that I made a careless remark about the history of the Texas war for independence. You provided a more nuanced view, offering the other side of the story, and I did not try to turn it into an argument, but, instead thanked you for the history lesson.
With respect to my remarks regarding the history of the Jews and the Arabs, I was not in any way in error and I provided references to back up my historical narrative. I also engaged in what was simply a thought exercise. No one else has come up with a solution to the intractable Arab/Israeli simmering war of 63 years; I merely offered my own point of view. It’s fine to disagree and criticize. I can’t understand the motivation for the personal invective.
@another vet (#183): Regarding the UN partition boundaries. Again, the analogy would be this: Let’s say that Hitler had gotten The Bomb first. He wins the war. There had already been an attempt by Germany to form an alliance with Mexico in WWI. So Germany (playing the same role as played by the British after WWI and WWII) partitions Texas, displacing landowners who’d lived in Texas for generations. Germany then gets the UN to endorse the deal.
Now, this would all be very legal, but I would not expect the displaced landowners of Texas (heavily armed as they are) to suffer their fate in silent resignation.
I think it is an error to conflate historical attempts by Arabs to establish a caliphate with the specific and unique problems originating in the region which is today Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. On a specific type of multiple choice test, a Jeopardy-style answer would be “an example of something which is true, true, and unrelated.”
- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
Esdraelon, the cheapest unleaded in my area is $3.59, $3.75 for diesel, which I use. But have no fear, it will go up again simply because gas traditionally rises in cost from Memorial Day to Labor Day.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
One problem with your comments to another vet, Larry. If Germany had acquired the bomb first, and won the war, the UN would never have been founded.
openid.aol.com/runnswim, I disagree on what you mentionned ,YOU think It’s an error to conflate on
historical attempts by ARABS TO INSTALL A CALIPHATE,
you hear their deathwish and dont get it, the way they are immigrating around the world to solidify their whish to conquer the world by sneaking and lying is you’re answer to their intent not peacefull and not wanting to assimilate, no matter what our tolerante people try to do to help them, they are smiling as they lie, the same way, and cannot respond to pressure peacefully but only by wanting to eliminate their opponant.
openid, if you don’t like being labeled somthing, don’t act like the label. Also, I would think as a [1/2] Jew, you would know more history of the Jewish people, and their homelands, that you seem to. You would understand that the Roman occupiers of the Palestinian territories declared that area a Jewish homeland in the First Century. You would know that it was the Jews buiding cities and putting down roots while the Arabs were still nomads roaming from land to land. The Arabs, as nomads, had no more use for “nations” than did the Native American, although Native Americans were more territorial than were the Arabs.
And you seem to want to ignore why the Palestinians were displaced. It was NOT because Israel threw them out (because some stayed) but because they were told by their Arab handlers that the land would stay in the hands of the Arabs after the Yom Kippur war and they could return. You also fail to acknowledge that the other Arab nations refused to take those refugees, while they stole the lands owned by the Jews, therefore displacing the Jews which Israel absorbed.
And what happens if Israel concedes the disputed land? Will the Palestinians then be happy? Will they stop trying to kill the Jews? How long before they start demanding more, and more, and more land?
There has never been a Palestinian “nation”. Never. Why should there be one now because a bunch of thugs threaten Israel if there isn’t one?
@retire: We really could have had a decent discussion about all of this. I would have liked to discuss the nuances of the history of the Jews and Arabs in the region; no doubt I could have learned something (as I did about Texas history) and, just possibly, you might have learned something as well. But the language you’ve directed my way has been beyond offensive, and I really have no interest in continuing a dialog with you.
- Larry W/HB
@John: Point well taken.
@blast: @blast: You said:
You make absolutely no sense. The War of 1812 was about our expansion into the Northwest Territory, among other things and the Barbary Wars were because of muslim pirates, who attacked us in an effort to demand ransom.
Once again, I must post this conversation between President Jefferson and Tripoli’s ambassador:
Typical far lefty, you cannot refute what I posit, so you try to deflect.
Let that sink in.
And you call me the idiot…
The point I was making is that your claim that the only reason the muslim terrorists attack us is because our actions cause “blowback;” that your claim that if we only would leave Israel to defend itself and get out of the ME, then they would not attack us, is wrong.
History proves that muslim extremists will attack without any provocation other than reading their koran in which it tells them to kill the infidels. We did nothing to them in 1801, save refuse to pay their ransom; yet they attacked us.
Care to address that point?
openid.aol.com/runnswim,
hey that is a thought for reflexion, HITLER, told the JEWS IN GERMANY that they will be relocate to a better place, they belived it and unwillingly followed their being put in trains leaving every posessions behind, the train’s rides end up killing 6 000000 of them, put yourself in their place now,
and reflect on what OBAMA ask of them to give up the land acquired with the blood of their own braves just to defend themself, they never attacked, only defend their people from those hatefull neighbords,
NOW you have some jewish blood in your veins ,IT’S TIME FOR ALL THE JEWS OR MIX JEWS TO TAKE A STAND FOR THE SAKE OF HISTORY; as you see I am using the same analogy of your comment and put you on the side where you and all the jews of AMERICA should side on, why?
BECAUSE they are being incited by giving land and in the same time , being told WE WILL PROTECT YOU FROM YOUR ENNEMIES, THIS IS A DEJA VU, ABSOLUTLY.
@blast for brains: You really ought to refrain from calling beezy short in the cerebral area, after all, you can’t tell the difference between the Barbary Wars and the War of 1812…
If we were choosing sides for a debate, I would take beezy over you any day of the week. Here sense of humor, compassion and intelligence shines through in every post she makes.
anticsrocks, thank’you, I will send you my bill for clicking your like button,
IT IS ADDING UP, SAVE YOUR MONEY
bye
Actually, retire05, as a result of the Annapolis meetings with the Bush admin, the Israelis’ agreed to a two-state solution for the first time. That ought to wound those who think nothing was accomplished during those contentious years of rotating terror heads of Palestinian state, as well as the changing of the guard in the Israeli PM position…. but I digress.
BeBe said it best today in his statements to the joint Congress. The issue has never been whether Israel would recognize a Palestinian state… assuming they could agree upon defensible borders and how to handle both Jerusalem and the settlements… all big obstacles. Rather the larger issue is whether Palestine will agree to an Israeli state. As Muhammad Dahlan said in March 2009, neither Fatah nor Hamas has ever recognized Israel’s right to exist.
As long as this base belief remains true for both Fatah and Hamas, any peace agreement is just window dressing, and nothing more than another step towards the quest of Israeli annihilation.
Because Israel knows that even if they could come to terms on a two state agreement, borders, Jerusalem and the settlements, they will remain under violent attack from the elements who quite plainly state Israel has no right to exist. Thus their demand that they retain military rights of defense and defendable borders.
It simply ain’t gonna happen…. most especially in light of the recent past “arab spring” and upcoming events.
Larry, your fallacy at @openid.aol.com/runnswim: that you
is shown up by a quote “A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step” (as used in Tao Te Ching chapter 64, by Laozi)
You think you can look at each tree in the forest and say, ” No, that’s just a tree; no forest here!”
You are wrong.
The ideal of re-establishing Islam’s caliph who will rule over all the known world (as it almost did once) has not died.
Every extension of Dar al Islam (where Dar al Harb used to be) is a step on that journey.
Karl Marx observed that, “The Koran and the Mussulman (Muslim) legislation emanating from it reduce the geography and ethnography of the various peoples to the simple and convenient distinction of two nations and of two countries; those of the Faithful and of the Infidels” And added, “The Infidel is the enemy.”
In the Koran, Karl Marx is correct. There is the ”realm of Islam” and there is the ”realm of war.”
That is also the literal translation of Dar al Islam and Dar al Harb.
WAR.
The long war.
MATA, hi, I FIND HARD to beleive the past and future PRESIDENT would ask such a demand to ISRAEL,
It’s inconceveble to think IT HAS happenned, but we know the INTENT under that scenario of deception
@retire05,
You are right I don’t believe your thesis, and I believe your pulling out of your ass the 9th Century and 16th Century issues are in the lunatic fringe, and you are too self absorbed to realize it.
@ retire05… You did not comment on how liberal I am for holding the same opinion on foreign aid as the same person who received 1/3 of all votes at CPAC and was the leading contender for president in the CPAC straw poll. So 1/3 of all CPAC attendees were liberal?
Is Sen Rand Paul the tea party darling a liberal too? You just don’t get it.
@johngalt
I am not going to debate the list you provided… they are all important developments, but not vital like oil. Israel is a foreign country, not the 51st state. It is not our place to be perpetually funding them, particularly since it really is not sustainable forever. As Mata pointed out, this has been going on 65 years already, that seems perpetual already. I am not in favor of just cutting them off, but we do need to resolve this situation and not be on the hook forever. We have enough needs at home already.
@Nan
There is no doubt that Hamas will need to be an honest broker when it comes to any negotiation, should they even be part of a governing coalition. There was a time that the PLO was a terrorist organization and had to renounce terrorism etc.
openid, I have read your bio. Perhaps I expected someone so educated to be well, more educated. Perhaps you should add “thin-skinned” to that bio. And according to what you have written here, it would seem that I would be well within my rights to lop rockets at the people who now occupy my ethnic homelands if my demands for their return was not met. Tell me, are you willing to return the land that your house, and your business, currently sits on because it was taken from someone else 200 years ago? And if you don’t return those lands, do those indigous people have a right to lob rockets at you?
Mata, I understand that under Bush the Israelis agreed to a two state solution. That doesn’t eliminate the fact that there has never historically been a Palestinian “nation.”
To paraphrase Golda Mier, there will never be peace in the Middle East until the Muslims love their children as much as they hate the Jews.
@blast:
I don’t really believe you are aware of current events at all, blast.
There is a move to have the UN vote a Palestinian state into existence later this year. (Look it up)
Obama admitted “the recent announcement of an agreement between Fatah and Hamas raises profound and legitimate questions for Israel.”
Palestinians, according to their own polling, don’t want peace.
That’s why they just planned to form a unified government dedicated to Israel’s destruction.
It is set to take power right AFTER the UN declares Palestine to be a nation.
Obama also said, “The full and phased withdrawal of Israeli military forces should be coordinated with the assumption of Palestinian security responsibility in a sovereign, non-militarized state.”
What does that mean “with the assumption of Palestinian security responsibility?”
It means we have to assume everything will be terrific.
Now, there might be a silver lining in all this………….
With a unified Fatah/Hamas government there must be a NEW CHARTER written.
So, will each continue to include their objective of the total destruction of Israel?
Will Hamas drop their objective of the establishment of a global caliphate?
And, let’s say they do (that would be their saying Obama’s magic words, btw).
Could WAR be declared against ”Palestine” once they break their promise?
@anticsrocks
LOL. Yeah, I am speaking of how ridiculous to bring up a beef from 1801… A communication between Jefferson and an ambassador in 1801 somehow holds relevance today? That is just stupid on its face.
blast, in the late 7th century, the Islamic hordes invaded the Berber lands. They rode through the Berber villages shouting “Allahu Akbar”. As they plundered through Christian Turkey, they shouted “Allahu Akbar.” What did the 19 hijackers shout as they plowed jets into the World Trade center buildings and the Pentagon? The same war cry of the Musliim hordes in the 7th Century, the 8th Century and the 17th century. Nothing has changed except some people’s ability to realize that 9-11 was the restart of a very old war of conquest for a religion.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim: I’m pretty well aware of the general arguments the Palestinians have with regards to the situation over there. Up until about 10 years ago I was more supportive 0f them and would have actually been considered anti-Israel. As a matter of fact, back then I would have actually supported what Obama said last week. In the last 10 years my views have changed and here’s why. The Palestinians have a grievance about how their lands were taken from them and how they were in the majority etc. however there is still debate as to who was there first etc. which means it is a gray area. It had been addressed in 1947 and it was rejected by the Arabs and with force at that. So perhaps that part of the argument needs to be re-addressed. However that is not where their argument stops. The second half, which seems to be ignored, is their desire for the destruction of Israel which they have attempted more than once. That is not a gray area that is open to negotiation. It is white and black. You either support the destruction of Israel or you don’t. The second half of their argument far outweighs the first because you are talking about the destruction of a country and its people. As such, I believe my views of 10 plus years ago were wrong and that those who are trying to make Israel out into being the bad guy are wrong. Make no mistake, I believe their attack on the Liberty was not an accident but intentional and that we would have been well within our right to launch a counter military strike of own. I am also opposed to the release of Jonathan Pollard. Those issues however are separate from the Palestinian issue.
BTW, I was kind of surprised at the last source you posted. An “anonymous” who made reference to “Ronny ray-gun”. On a simple college research paper citing a source like that probably would have resulted in the drop of a letter grade. I know you can do better than that!
@Nan G
Yes, I am aware of the UN vote. I doubt it will take place, but if it does you do pose great questions about the joint charter between Hamas and Fatah.
@blast:
Actually, the debate between our President and our Ambassador led to the realization that our merchant marines were being attacked incessantly by Muslim pirates BECAUSE we (the US government) always would pay the ransoms to free the merchant marines and we (the US government) took the loss of whole ships and cargos as simply the cost of doing business.
As that amount we were paying out to Muslim pirates ate up so large a portion of our US government’s budget it became a worthwhile endevour to simply FIGHT BACK.
We created the US Navy.
Our Navy fought the pirates and ended the piracy.
Standing up to terrorism worked.
Appeasement did not.
And we got a Navy out of the deal, too.
@blast:
I actually agree that we shouldn’t be funding them. But, then again, I am of the belief that we shouldn’t be providing funding for any other nation, or worldwide organization. If you denounce the funding to Israel, then by reason, you must also denounce the funding going to the UN, to Mexico, Argentina, and any other nation that we give aid, in the form of monetary grants, or loans, to. One can not engage in a process of picking winners and losers, whether it be domestically, or internationally, and expect to be renowned for freedom. Freedom doesn’t just entail the right to engage in success, but to endure failure as well.
So, do you denounce funding, no matter what the form, for all other nations and international organizations?
@nan (#212). I don’t disagree, but it’s more nuanced than that.
There are a number of issues ongoing, in the Arab world, which are only tangentially related, or not at all.
1. With regard to the caliphate: sure, this dream has not died. But there are very few Arabs who actually think that the West may be conquered at the point of a sword. In point of fact, they are doing very well in Europe, right now, through entirely non-violent means. This is only peripherally related to the Arab-Israeli conflict.
2. With regard to Jerusalem and Israel, there are really two, mostly unrelated things going on. First, there are the Arabs who keep alive the memory of Saladin and the Crusaders. I quoted this before: It took Saladin more than a century to re-take Jerusalem. So (a.) there are people with no direct claims to land but who are simply offended at the thought of modern day Crusaders occupying what they consider to be their historical land and (b.) there are people who fled in advance of the 1948 conflict — wanting to protect their families, because they just didn’t want to get caught in the crossfire between armies or whatever.
3. There are Arabs and Iranians (like Saddam and like Bin Laden and like Ahmadinejad) who simply use Israel for propaganda value to promote their own agendas.
It’s very easy just to lump all these together, but group 2 (b) does exist and, in my personal opinion, has legitimate grievances.
The other issue I want to address is the discussion about there never having been a “nation” of Palestine.
Yes, it is true that many/most (I don’t know the percentages of the Arabs living in the vast Ottoman Empire) were nomadic people. But that didn’t give the British the right to carve up the territory and designate a portion of it as a homeland for Europeans, who’s ancestors left the region more than a millennium before. I quoted the book chapter of the (Jewish) Penn State scholar, along with other data and opinions, which, collectively do a good job of explaining the various points of view.
With regard to your comment about my observation that Americans and Europeans let Germany off the hook for the Holocaust and solved the Jewish homeland problem at the expense of the Arabs — that this observation was the one made by the now notorious Helen Thomas — well, it’s an opinion I’ve expressed in previous Internet discussions, years before Thomas used this comment in a ranting diatribe. Here’s what she said (which is nothing at all like I said):
I never even hinted anything like that. The most controversial proposal I made was simply to pay what I called “blood money” to individual descendants of individual Arabs who lost their real estate in the 1948 Arab/Israeli War, which occurred as a result of the UN mandate creating a “homeland” for Europeans and thereby enraging the Arabs in the region. This was a purely pragmatic suggestion, to eliminate one of the obstacles to a resolution of the conflict. Maybe it’s a bad idea. But it was simply a thought experiment.
- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
blast, I’m not sure why you are holding up Rand Paul as the conservative god here. I’m certainly not a fan, and it’s really just the media that labels him from CPAC. But then, CPAC is an odd fringle group on it’s own who has often voted for his dad, Ron Paul, at their conventions. Few conservatives I know see either as a good fit for GOP leadership, save perhaps on some fiscal issues. On foreign policy, neither of them do it for me. In fact, Rand Paul pretty much cinched any credibility in my view when he decided to boycott Netanyahu’s speech today. We all know how he feels about foreign aid, so you and he ought to be two peas in a pod.
However Rand Paul’s office can’t even be honest about his boycott, stating it was because he had a battle with Harry Reid over his offered amendments to the Patriot Act. Really? Now why would he feel he had to slight the Israeli PM over a dispute of domestic legislation?
I consider that cowardly to suggest it’s because of unrelated legislation. And it’s downright rude to treat an ally’s visit to Congress that way. He’s triaged way down in respect, IMHO.
@Nan G: and bees- Just the facts ma’am (s)!
@johngalt
Your question is very unequivocal and inflexible. My comments on the present issue have been focused on the duration and the amount of support and the unsustainable nature of perpetually providing aid.
Do you feel NATO should be defunded?
@MataHarley:
You are correct, but agreement to a ‘two-state’ solution does not create a nation, right? There has never been a Palestinian nation. I believe you know that so I likely am misunderstanding.
@mata
I bring him an CPAC up to point out that Conservatives can and do differ on policy, including aid to Israel, and they are not called liberal for their positions.
openid, my God, man, do you ever read a newspaper? You think Arabs are doing well in Europe? Have you not read about the Paris riots, or the riots in Denmark? Do you not hear Angela Merkel, along with Sarcozy, saying that assimilation is not working with the “Asians” as Muslims are called in the foreign press? And while there are few Arabs that think the western world can be conquered at the point of a sword, conquest of the infidels is, and remains an Islamic goal. Only now they intend to do it at the point of a bomb.
Those Muslims who fled Israel did so not because they were driven out by the Israelis, but because they were told that once the Arabs retook the land of Israel, they could return to a Jew free land. So 600,000 Muslims fled to other Muslim nations where they were not given citizenship, or rights of a legal resident, or camped out in primative 7th century tent villages, waiting for the “right of return”, which never came. There were called refugess, and the UN now puts the number at something like 4.1 million. How many of those original 600K from 1948 do you think are still alive, and why are their decendants called “refugees”?
If the Palestinians have the ability to be a free nation that will prosper, why haven’t they already done it? Why are there still so many destitute in the Palestinian territories? What has happened to all the aid that many nations have sent them? Do you think that Hamas, who has traded relief aid for arms, will no longer do that? Why is there a “humanitarina crisis” (according to the U.N.) in the West Bank and Gaza? They have had the same length of time to make something of that land that the Jews have had to build Israel in to a prosperous nation.
@Esdraelon, yes I know this is still a pipe dream. Most have said that the only likely workable situation is a three state solution, giving control of Gaza back to Egypt, and the West Bank to Jordan. Neither of those nations want that.
I think my point was most say Israel is inflexible. To agree formally to a two state solution, where they have refused in the past, is progress… even if a futile solution. To the points that Israel is inflexible, I agree. Any way the two parties would agree on borders must leave Israel with defendable territory. That is also unlikely to happen, and even more so in the wake of the unholy alliance now between the present and future Egyptian government, and the unity between Fatah and Hamas.
I think Israel knows what’s around the corner… likely late this summer and prior to the Egyptian election and unilaterial declaration to the UN. I also think that BeBe traveled to Congress because he knows Israel has bipartisan support there that he doesn’t see in the WH. With the upcoming events, the WH is going to have a pick a side. Period. And we all know that Obama isn’t very good at anything save straddling fences to avoid culpability.
Perfect example of when I say you have dual standards, blast… one for Israel, and another for the rest. While I don’t agree with johngalt on our fiscal relationship with Israel, I respect that he is consistent. He is for abolishing foreign aid for nations… not picking and choosing based on some perceived value system.
What makes you say this, blast? Are you assuming that the UN can hear a unilateral declaration from a unity Palestinian government, and them simply ignore their declaration?
First of all, the UN General Assembly has demonstrated no love for Israel in the past, and quite likely to vote thumbs up. This is obvious with their vote of acceptance of the Goldstone report a few years ago, and their desires to see a unity Palestinian govt.
Of course, they are not empowered to create binding law and create nation states. But the symbolism alone is going to put pressure upon the rest of the community for recognizing this self-declared state with ambiguous boundaries.
With the Arab spring events, and the evidence that MB will be coming out on top in the upcoming Egyptian elections… the same roots as Hamas in Gaza… the new “democratic” rebellions are actually aligning themselves against Israel in the coming months. The last thing that Palestine wants right now is a “peace agreement”, because it precludes their planned declaration before a very friendly UN audience.
Nan G is correct about a new charter. And what is likely to be in that charter is the creation of that state as an Islamic state.
I think someone can explain of the war that BRITAIN where having and WON those lands,
before the JEWISH SETTELMENT,
openid.aol.com/runnswim, can you confirm that, they OWNED the land and gave it to the JEWISHS
WHICH NEEDED TO FIND PLACE FOR AFTER GERMANY DEFEAT FROM WW11 AS A COMPASSIONATE MOVEMENT TO RELOCATE SO MANY OF THE JEWS INJURED, A SKELLETON SHADOW OF THEMSELF HAVING ENDURE SO LONG IN SILENCE THE CRIMES OF GERMANS
I wrote that Islam is doing very well in Europe by entirely peaceful means. What I mean by that is not that they are assimilating nicely into society and becoming Westernized, but, rather, that Islam has experienced marked growth in Europe at a time when Christianity has been in marked decline. In addition to immigration, Islam is growing through religious conversion of indigenous Europeans. There has been vastly more progress in this regard (again, through entirely peaceful means) than there ever was through any type of violent means.
At the level of the individual people and families who were living in the region in 1948, I can readily understand that they did not wish to be in the middle of a cross fire. Prior to 1948, there was not some sort of homogeneous, unified nationally identified people (as many on this thread have pointed out), rather these were simply individual people, making individual decisions for themselves and their families. It’s unfair to say, “well, it was their choice to leave. They voluntarily abandoned their property.” We must ask ourselves what we would have likely done, had we been in their place, at that point in time and at that place. That’s what I meant about trying to walk a mental kilometer in their sandals.
I have never questioned the incredible accomplishments of the Israelis. The overachieving nature of Jewish people in general has been well documented; so it’s a bit unfair to compare and contrast the relative progress made by the different people in the region. Additionally, the Arabs, as has been pointed out, had never lived in politically-organized, self-governed nations. The Jews had a two thousand year history of educational, entrepreneurial, and political resourcefulness.
- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
Well, blast… who ever said that all conservatives are clones in their beliefs and issues? Of course they differ. But there is a difference between conservatives and libertarians… as is both the Paul father and son.
As for CPAC, not sure who shows up at these things, but considering the past five conventions have straw poll results of Mitt for three years, and Ron Paul for two, they are not indicative of the nation’s conservative movement at large. Especially Mitt who is anything but conservative. Somehow I always find them disconnected from the nation at large. It’s not a “tea party” critter… been around since the 70s. So you can’t associate it with them either, save that the attendees might be any combination of tea partiers, libertarians, RINOs and conservatives.
Mitt has lukewarm support at best. Ron Paul is a dark horse where conservatives like his fiscal policies, but are world’s apart on his foreign policy… far more isolationist. I tend to think that attitude.. while highly successful in our first century… went away about the same time that oceans ceased to be a deterrent to enemies.
Paul’s first stab was as the libertarian candidate in 1988. After figuring out he’d never get anywhere third party, he ran his ensuing campaigns for Congress, plus his 2008 POTUS attempts, under the GOP banner.
Larry, about that ”right of return.”
IF, and it is a BIG IF, only the OLD people (who ACTUALLY left their homes because they knew there was going to be an attempt to wipe Israel off the map and they didn’t want to die with the Jews) were the ones being promised to get back ”their homes,” there would be very few coming back.
Israel might have allowed them back.
BUT, you and I both know the ”right of return” has nothing to do with people older than 73…..I’m generously allowing a 10 year old to be called a ”homeowner.”
“Right of return,” as defined by Hamas and Fatah and PLO includes every man, woman and child who wants to leave Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Gaza and everywhere else they are situated right now.
Any idea how many people it might be?
According to experts less than 1 million Arab refugees left Israel in 1948-9 & 1967.
Palestinian premier rejects Israel’s condition for talks.’, in USA Today May 7, 2003:
West Bank now has 2.5 million.
Gaza now has 1.6 million.
So, we are talking about an 8-year old number of at the very least 8 million coming into a country with a Jewish population of only 3/4ths of its 7 million inhabitants!
As Bibi said: it is NOT going to happen.
openid, you seem to be wearing blinders. Most Muslims living in France live off the dole. They don’t learn the language, consequently they are unemployable. In London, the Muslim mobs were so violent the police ran from them (time to arm the British police, I suspect). In Denmark, Jews are being chased out of their towns by Muslim mobs. And yes, there is tremendous growth of Islam in Europe. Did you ever ask yourself why? If the Muslims who have immgrated into European nations don’t want to assimilate, what is their purpose there? Could it be that the Qu’ran directs them to go a “live among them” the them being the Europeans?
You say the Palestinians left Israel because it was war torn. Fine. Why didn’t they return when the war was over? And then, you give me the greatest excuse you have so far presented for the lack of civilization in the Palestinian territories; the superior “over acheiving nature” of the Jewish people when that really has nothing to do with the failure of the Palestinians to make lemonaid out of lemons. It has to do with accepting victimhood as a way of life and not being responsibe for your own actions. IT IS JUST THAT SIMPLE.
You should research why Muslims are stuck in the 7th century. It didn’t start out that way; algebra, and that kind of stuff, you know. But somewhere along the way, that changed and it simply because a cult that wants to take what is not theirs, created by people who are not on a religious mission of conquest.
Bibi made the point that of the 300 million Arabs in the ME only 1 million of them are living under freedom.
Those 1 million live in Israel under Israeli law.
Polls of Israeli Arabs show they have no desire to live elsewhere under Muslim rule.
I wonder why that is?
What was the response of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to Bibi’s speech today?
What upset Abbas so much?
This:
So much for Fatah.
And what of Hamas?
So, defensible borders are a no-brainer. Israel will not be allowed to have defensible borders…..if Hamas has anything to do with drawing the lines.
@nan: Daunting numbers, for sure. But there could be something done, in between a “right of return” on one hand and doing nothing at all to acknowledge that there really were Arab individuals and families who lost a great deal, through no fault of their own, on the other hand,– there might be some sort of compromise. Let’s say, identifying all the various pieces of Arab property which were lost during the creation of Israel and assigning a value to each and giving the lump sum of aggregate money to some international equivalent of the guy doling out the BP oil spill money and let said international agency distribute the “blood money” to the various claimants and heirs. It wouldn’t satisfy everyone, but it would at least be a legitimate attempt to address the key grievance in a meaningful way.
With respect to the paucity of real estate improvement and economic development in Gaza and the West Bank, I don’t see the relevance of this to any aspect of my discussion. Whether the Arabs are living in squalor and who deserves blame for this is beyond the scope of anything which I considered.
With regard to the non-assimilation and what not of Arabs in Europe, again, that’s not relevant to anything I said. I simply made the point that Islam has made vastly greater inroads into the West through entirely peaceful means than anything achieved through violence, including 9/11 and other acts of terrorism. I will say that the non-assimilation is almost certainly cultural and not out of any sort of large scale or organized effort to serve as a beachhead for a caliphate. I say this because the Turks have lived in Germany for decades and also remain unassimilated and ghettoized, despite their comparative economic success. The Turks have shown no interest whatsoever in establishing a caliphate or turning Germany into an Islamic nation. Yet they remain unassimilated and ghettoized.
- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
@MataHarley:
At the risk of being ridiculed due to my Christina upbringing, and Oh, yes, Larry, my whole-hearted acceptance and belief in Jesus Christ and His atonement, I will firmly point out that the Arabs are neither now, nor ever going to wipe Israel off the map. I made a mention of Ezekiel, Chapter 38, earlier, and I will make it again: The major point is that the Arabs cannot do it by themselves! They have been defeated (badly) four times, in the last century, and for this next attempt they need a champion. They HAVE a champion: Russia. Research the ‘Chief Prince of Meshech and Tubal’, and the peoples who make up Gomer, and the house of Togarmah, and where they settled. It’s a slam dunk.
Ezekiel 38 (any emphasis is my own)(the reference to horses, bows and arrows are from a person thousands of years ago trying to describe the components of modern warfare that he is seeing in a vision)
1And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
3And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
4And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
5Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
6Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.
7Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them.
8After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
9Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
10Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
11And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
12To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.
13Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil? (pitiful protest)
14Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?
15And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
16And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
17Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?
18And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
19For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
20So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
21And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man’s sword shall be against his brother.
22And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
23Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.
I say: Let them bring it on! Because Israel also has a champion: The Lord God Almighty! Who in the past declared the Jews His chosen people and after the chastisement of the Holocaust, they will finally call upon Him for deliverance…and He will hear. In the past, Israel has done it themselves with a little help from the Lord, but the Arabs, this time, want to put an end to it, and Russia, as she is presently doing behind the curtain, will step to the forefront. The United Nations, United States, Europe, will simply protest, but take no action. What can we do? While Obama traipses throughout Europe, our totally unsustainable debt is growing proportionately. We are dead, just don’t know it yet. So we will only protest when it finally comes.
But it will come. As surely as the sun will rise in the east tomorrow.
I apologise for consuming all this bandwidth.
@ mata
Perfect example of dual standards??? John’s question did not just speak to nations. It was very broad and unequivocal, so I cannot say yes to something so broad. In his question it would include not supporting NATO, and was very inflexible. If it said unending foreign aid, that would be easy. In general I am against foreign aid, but I am sure a case could be made for emergencies or short term help.
@esdra (#238): When have I ever ridiculed any aspect of any religion on any post I have ever made on this blog? When have I ever ridiculed you?
Honestly, guys, as the only one here who actually signs his real name, I really do care about both my name and my life reputation. People just read what Esdra flippantly tosses off in the first two lines of his #238, and they assume that I’m just another one of those Bill Maher half-Jewish secular humanists who makes fun of evangelicals. Far, far from it. Read my comment #65 on the what are you doing for rapture day thread. I’m very pro-religion in general and pro-Christianity. I was a born-again evangelical Protestant myself between middle school and medical school, and was an active member of the United Campus Ministry in college; I’ve been married for 42 years to a Catholic, and I dearly love every Jewish bone in my 97 year old father’s still vibrantly active body. Through no fault of my own, I’ve drifted off to being sort of a spiritual deist by now, but you’ll never, ever read me bad-mouthing or mocking any religion which does not foster evil in its believers.
- Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
Of proposed U.S. assistance for 2012, almost two-thirds is earmarked for Muslim nations and one-third goes to Arab countries.
$20.1 billion goes to Muslim nations, or those where a majority practice Islam.
About 33% or the total budget, or $11.6 billion is awarded to Arab countries.
80% of our aid to Arab countries pays for police and the military.
Yet, despite those billions in aid, opinion polls show most Arab citizens still have an unfavorable view of America and most Muslim nations routinely vote against U.S. interests in the United Nations…..
This document (PDF), released by the State Department, examines 13 critical votes in the UN in 2010.
Read more: http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/05/24/its-all-your-money-foreign-aid-muslimarab-nations#ixzz1NJWpug6B
Carolyn Glick touched on all of this better than I can:
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
And Larry, neither did I accuse you of Anything. Simply pointed out, and maybe I should have said so: “Per your earlier treatise…on your own religious bent”, I noted on mine that I am not ashamed of what I believe either, nor was there anything flippant about it. Nowhere did I ridicule you in the least, I also respect the fact that you are an agnostic, sic.
If you cannot find your answers, you just need to look harder, though you can get off this wounded sentimentality very easily simply by deciding to avoid falling back upon it.
Esd
@esd. ok, thanks.
Nan G, this is shocking, it could not be clearer than that. AMERICA PLEASE GOD HELP HER
@blast:
I’ll admit to my question being both of those. If one is not consistent on their stance, or view, then how can one stand on principle, concerning that view? You seem to be of a mind that Israel shouldn’t be funded in any way, while other countries that we benefit much, much less from, should still receive our aid. Is this correct? And if so, then why?
No, I don’t.
HE is playing the fear card to AMERICANS, saying, if we don’t get them in the GOVERNMENT,
THEY WILL ATTACK US, SO AMERICANS, BE AFRAID AND GIVE THEM YOUR GOVERNMENT
TO GET IN TO BE IN CHARGE OF YOUR LIFE, that is what it means that is what he mean what he is pressure to deal with by the brotherhood, they own him, he need their money for his next election as for the first. he sold the so important SECURITY OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
I think there is a difference between consistency and obstinacy. You have already admitted your question was “unequivocal and inflexible” so, those are not principals I adhere to.
No it is not correct. I also have not said we should cut off Israel today either.
The amount and duration of aid plays a big role in my book. If it looks like there is no end is sight, then a close look needs to take place. Israel is a bigger target because of the huge amount given. If aid is going to be offered, it should be finite and not ordinary, but extraordinary.
So what you’re saying… at least in Israel’s case which you specifically pointed out as a “larger target”… is that you want an “exit strategy” for foreign aid and ta hell with what the generals on the ground have to say.
Are you aware that:
Like I said, Israel… best bang for the buck in the region.
MATA, THAT IS A GOOD FIND, THANK YOU
@blast: You said:
Right out of Rules for Radicals by Alinsky, you ignore the issue and instead attempt to use ridicule rather than debate on the face of the facts.
You claim that we cause “blow back” by supporting Israel and that is what makes the muslim terrorists attack us. I showed you facts – cold hard facts – that the muslim terrorists need no reason other than the directives set out in their koran to kill infidels. And of course we all know that they define infidels as anyone who isn’t muslim.
Nice religion there and what makes it more curious is that you support that by your comments here at FA.
Looks like Obama has thrown in the towel.
“The U.S. very clearly believes that Hamas is a terrorist organization; that until it ceases its use of terrorism and recognizes Israel’s right to exist, that they can’t be a credible partner for peace,” Ben Rhodes, aide to U.S. President Barack Obama.
So, I guess Obama’s speech was just a lot of Hope-y Change-y stuff that went with a coin into a wishing well.
A little bit of breaking news that’s an example of how the IDF works.
The Spirit of Rachel Corrie was trying to break the Gaza blockade and only 400 meters from landing when it was fired upon by the Israeli navy.
There was only one tiny bit of damage: the steering!
“The ship’s aqua pilot sailing system has broken down and our ship is spinning, going in circles, and turning round and round.” a press release said.
oh… the irony. LOL I swear, Nan G, that almost sounds like Onion fodder! Thanks for the laugh.
Speaking at the AIPAC dinner on Monday night, Sen. Harry Reid (D-NV) told the audience that “no one should set premature parameters about the borders, about building, about anything else.”
Reid’s jab at President Obama was a reference to Obama’s Middle East speech last week in which the President said “the borders of Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps, so that secure and recognized borders are established for both states.”
Speaking at the same dinner, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that “Israel cannot return to the indefensible 1967 lines.”
The above is the entire article.
It’s a shortie, but a goody.
Harry Reid throws Obama under the bus?
I didn’t even know Harry Reid HAD a bus!
I am totally confused. I think that it is a fact that the Jews control the media as well as Hollywood. Jews are generally considered intelligent, shrewd business people ( I mean this as a compliment). Obama has sold out Israel, the Jewish homeland, and yet Hollywood and the media are in love with this socialist. I can only surmise that their liberal beliefs are actually more important than their religion and homeland. This truly shocks me, I thought much more highly of the Jews as a religion and nationality.
@Terryfizz: You honestly think there is a conspiracy among Jewish people to control Hollywood and the media??
You said:
It is actually that many Jewish folks here in America have far left liberalism as their religion, IMHO.
@Terryfizz:
Most American Jews go to Temple two or three times a year, like most American Christians.
They are “secular Jews,” or ”Jews in name only….JINO’s.”
My dad used to say our family had ”just enough Jewish blood to be thrown into the ovens.”
That’s why liberalism is more important to these secular Jews than another country they don’t even identify with.
@blast:
It is not obstinacy, blast. I stand by my principles upon reason,and when warranted, will rethink my positions when presented with countering arguments and reason. Obstinacy is the adherence to an opinion in spite of reason and argument to the contrary. Obstinacy is exactly how I would characterize you on this issue, for despite my listing of benefits the U.S. has gained from Israel, either directly or indirectly, and the listings that Mata has provided above, you still hold the opinion that we have very little national interest with Israel.
And yes, I do try to be ‘unequivocal’ in my questions, and answers. For you to use that term, in regards to my commenting, is a compliment.
Israel, in my opinion, which is based on my own knowledge of the country, and region, is of great benefit to the United States, both militarily and economically. It would be a great disservice to the Israeli people to abandon them at this time, after they have returned so much value back to us.
Terryfizz, yes that is probably why they vote democrats, hopefully,
they will see the light at the end of the tunnel in 2012
bye
@Nan G:
I am certain I misunderstand. Are you saying that most American Christians go to church two or three times a year?
@Mata,
Oh, so you really support stimulus? Sounds like socialism to me, transfers of wealth.
@JohnGalt
I guess you have not seen my comments that have indicated we should not just cut them off, but after 65 years of aid with no end in sight, well… I don’t think I am being obstinate I am being realistic.
As to Mata’s list of benefits, some have merit, but of course the removal of our aid does not mean all of those things would disappear. Plus, do you think we should be using this aid as a “stimulus” or as corporate welfare for aircraft builders? So you believe we should take money from taxpayers to give to businesses, through our foreign aid? Of course the industries involved, and the factions that support this aid will push political leaders to transfer money from the tax payers to other… again, I add - with no end in sight.
@anticsrocks,
Never read the book, but if you are going to foist a communication from Jefferson to an Ambassador in 1801 as some sort of harbinger of things today, I say that is stupid on its face. There is nothing to debate there.
Ah yes… another tangent by the desperate blast. Now you want to talk “stimulus”, and hope you can suggest I really support Obama’s spending?
Sorry to disappoint you blast, but there is wise government infused cash… aka stimulus… and unwise government infused cash. Interstate highways, bridges, refineries, shared infrastructure etal can be wise stimulus. High speed rails, in places where the demand and cost efficiency doesn’t warrant it, is not. While you want to now use the word “stimulus”, followed by a “gotch” type of spit, it doesn’t work save on the village idiot.
Take, for example, Obama’s grant money to various firms… most of which resulted in sending the manufacturing out of the nation.
Wise stimulus? Hardly, if the stimulus was designed to improve the American economy… which it was.
The military foreign aid to Israel saves the US costs as noted above in the presence of military, savings in intel, shared training facilities, and triggers other sales for American manufacturers in the region. And for that “stimulus”, 74% of it must stay in the US.
Yup… best bang for the buck in the region. Proven even more so by your attempted distraction.
So what country’s foreign aid has “an exit plan”, blast? And why aren’t you complaining about them? But then, I think we already know the answer to that.
@anticsrocks:
Conspiracy? Who said conspiracy? I believe (you may disagree) that they control many aspects of Hollywood and the media. My comments related to my surprise that they have not seemed to stand up for Israel or show objective critique of the Obama administration.
I understand the need for taxes to pay the federal government to support the needs of this country, but I do not see where the taxpayers should have to pay to support/socialize foreign countries.
With a 14.5 trillion budget deficit and giving handouts right and left, we are in fantasy land.
Looks like this years deficit itself will be about 1.6 trillion…..borrowing 1.6 trillion….seems we are simply borrowing money to give away….or maybe foreign aid is calculated before we hit the deficit??
Smoke and mirrors….we don’t have any freaking ‘aid’ to give…we can’t even aid ourselves….insanity!
@Esdraelon:
Esdraelon, we’ve seen it the same way at every church we’ve been members of.
Our congregation is so-and-so big until Easter or Christmas when it swells to more than twice its size.
Polls of Christians back up what we’ve seen over our lives.
Many people self-identify as Christian yet only attend once or twice a year.
Esdraelon, did you read the FOX LINK AT NAN G, THAT 2/3 RD OF FOREIGN AID GOES TO MUSLIM COUNTRYS SO WHERE DOES OBAMA ‘S BEST INTEREST GO WITH YOUR MONEY, NOT HIS OWN MONEY, RIGHT YOU ARE, at least ISRAEL GIVE IN RETURN A LOT OF MILITARYS ‘S LIFE, THEY WOULD HAVE LOST IN MANY INSTANCES IF THEY WOULD NOT HAVE A LAST MINUTE WARNING CALL
FROM ISRAEL. BUT THE MONEY SPENT ON MUSLIMS IS TO MAKE THEM FEEL GOOD,
AND THEY LOVE TO BUY WEAPONS, SO IT’s eazy to calculate where OBAMA’S FRIENDS
SPEND THE AMERICANS ‘S MONEY.
@ mata,
Desperate? Hardly Mata, you are grasping at straws to paint the give-a-way’s as a good deal no matter how much it cost us or how long it will last. You narrowly cast what we give Israel and ignore all the additional money we he have to give Egypt etc.
You are great at spending money and not paying for things mata.
@ilovebeeswarzone
beez, yeah,the bulk of that to support Iraq, Afghanistan…(to rebuild and for military support) and to Pakistan for all that wonderful help they have been, and Egypt because we are obligated to give them 2 dollars for every 3 we give to Israel.
Blast, geez, only 3 to ISRAEL AS OPPOSE TO MUSLIMS COUNTRY 2,
have you notice how the prices went up the ceiling in theses time we live in,
I SURE HOPE YOU GIVE ENOUGH TO ISRAEL FOR THEIR SERVICES, ARE COSTLY TOO,
MORE THAN 3 DOLLARDS AS OPPOSE TO 2 ELSEWHERE,
THEY ARE SURELY WORTH MORE THAN THAT,
why don’t you cut on the terrorists income,to give a raise to ISRAEL FOR THEIR SCIENTIFIC STUDY,
DONT BE CHEAP, ON THEM, THEY ARE TRUSWORTHY ON THEIR SIDE.
I BET you get a service from your brother for nothing, and pay a big amount for the same service to a suppose expert, while your brother get a cheap beer.
Esdraelon, “foreign aid” takes many forms. Some are actually profitable for the donor… as in the case of Israel’s military aid. Some are not… most of the time the social and humanitarian aid. Other forms of aid come in grants, which can yield shared tech advancements… again as in the case of Israel. Guaranteed loans are not “aid” because loans must be paid back. The worst that can be said for the loans made thru the World Bank and IMF is that they are generally low or no interest loans to the recipient nations.
The purpose of foreign aid also has to be taken into consideration. If it is to advance the recipient nation’s economy and results in increased shared trade, then it can have an advantage. But the fact is, most endeavors to effect economic improvement in the recipient nation do not work. Israel is an exception in this case.
Other times it is to effect political change or aid in US interests, like the intent of the money to Pakistan for fighting the global Islamic jihad movements and to promote counterintelligence. While many complain about their performance for the cash, the fact is the amount the US sends to Pakistan for counter terrorist action is not enough to cover their costs of doing so. Egypt is another one. The military aid their has enabled a very competent military… you know, the same ones in charge of the country until the MB/Salafists take it over in Sept?
I’m not against foreign aid as a blanket statement, but need to look at the specifics on a one on one basis for the way it’s set up, and the benefits for the donor nation (i.e. the US). And believe you me, most foreign aid tends to benefit the donor nation more in results than the recipient… a constant complaint by the int’l do gooders.
In the case of Israel, it’s money well spent. We get it back in a plethora of ways. I haven’t decided on Pakistan yet, but still leaning towards pro over con on that one.
On the other hand, our dues at the UN are $362,852,996 annually…. per their site. And that doesn’t include extraneous costs on top of that for the budget. The Wiki database (yes, that’s a caution sign… LOL) says that as of 2005, we owed $1.246 billion. Benefits? Zip, IMHO. Money down the drain, as far as I’m concerned. Then there’s NATO, another drain. We spend lots of cash handing our troops and equipment over to inept foreign command.
blast, you dash off so many cliffs is in your comments, it’s hard to keep up.
Only you could consider the info I provided about our fiscal relationship with Israel, and our benefits… including the figure from a US intelligence leader noting the value of the intel… as “narrowly cast”. That’s because facts get in the way of your rants and tirades that seem to be specifically focused on the Jews.
Nor did I ignore the money for Egypt, and in fact specifically addressed your off tangent bread crumbs in my comment #158. Allow me to repeat it for you…
I will also remind you that the Egyptian and US military have shared much as a result of this alliance and aid. And that they have been effective in helping Israel keep the peace, thus saving us more cash, since that treaty. But your POTUS has pretty much cinced that with his advocation for the removal of Mubarak.
Considering you’ve pretty much made up everything I’ve said, twisting it around to suit your own fallacies, you put the icing on the cake with this generic blather:
My household doesn’t function on credit, blast. I don’t spend what I don’t have. As far as being a citizen of this nation, I suggest your turn your beefs to Congress, and to your heroic POTUS who has exacerbated the irresponsible spending by both parties in Congress… most of the decades being under Dem control…. beyond all comprehension.
Yes… you are desperate. You can’t substantiate your distaste for Israel with facts, just emotions. I ask you what “exit plan” we should have, and you come up blank. If the foreign aid results in increased trade and US commerce, as it does with Israel, we should cut it because blast ain’t happy?
The foreign aid that does not benefit us should be cut. The foreign aid that does… as it most obvious in Israel’s case… should continue. It’s called fiscal and national security common cents and sense.
@blast:
That is an opinion. It is the opinion of some here, obviously not I, that we continue to provide aid to them, based on what they consider acceptable benefits to the United States by doing so. You have given the opinion that we gain very little in benefit from the aid to Israel. Mata, and others, with my help, have given you lists of items that they, and I as well, consider acceptable reciprocation on their part, for the aid that we have given them. You have even stated that the intel we gain from them isn’t worth the aid, however, Mata has cited a source that claim’s Israel’s intel gifts to the United States top all others, combined. Do you have a source that states differently? If so, then present it. With nothing else to base your comments on, all we are left with is that it is your opinion on the matter, with little to no facts shown to base it on.
If you’ve read any of my comments here on economic issues, then the answers that I would provide are quite obvious. If your reasoning for cutting off aid was the same as mine, then you would support the ending of ALL aid, to every country. Instead, from what I’ve gathered, you would pick some countries to continue giving aid to, while others you would cut off. Which, in itself, would be ok, if you presented to us a list of qualifying reasons to give monetary aid to another country. For example, if you supported giving aid based on fighting worldwide diseases, such as AIDS. Or supported giving aid so that emerging nations can invest in their own infrastructure. I wouldn’t agree with those reasons, but at least then you would have qualifiers attached to who gets aid and who doesn’t. Have you presented any here?
@JohnGalt
I did not know there was some obligation to ponder and post all the potential scenarios where aid might be rendered…. Your question had an all or nothing approach, I choose not to take that tact, but for sure Aid would not be opened ended and for 65+ years.
So since you are for not providing aid in any form, what if an outbreak of Ebola, or some infectious disease that is easily transmitted, broke out in a country where the resources were too small to deal with it, and the potential for a global epidemic was real. Would you provide funds to support the effort to monitor and eradicate the threat? See, being inflexible would be a bitch in that case.
Well, mata popped in aline without context or attribution. A quick review of General Keegan, his official bio did not even show the title mata presented (his bio showed him as assistant chief – not chief), plus he was retired and not even acting as an air force intelligence officer during all of the years stated (mata posted 1974 to 1990, Keegan was retired in 1977). So there seems on the surface to be some inaccuracies in her comment, or maybe the Air force bio for the general is in accurate.
here is the link to his bio: General Keegan became assistant chief of staff, Intelligence, Headquarters U.S. Air Force, in March 1972.
Oh, and I don’t dispute that Israel provides intelligence to the US, I also am sure we provide intelligence to them as well… that seems a fair trade.
@mata
Not really mata, I have hit you with that for a long time. We have gone around and around with the money spent in Iraq and its effect on the national debt… I have said pay for it, you call for keeping tax cuts. So our deficit balloons. And before you pull out your diatribe about Obama, he is no better. You and Obama have the same philosophy! Spend, borrow and print.
@Terryfizz: Just clarifying, Terry. Not to be rude, but your comment seemed a bit “conspiracy theory” to me. I just don’t see the Jews controlling any more or less of Hollywood, MSM, etc… than any other ethnic group.
.
.
@blast: You said:
So you are saying that the muslims in 1801 needed no provocation to attack western countries, but today if we would only leave Israel to stand on its own then the muslims would stop attacking us?
You think that there was some reformation of Islam between 1801 and present day? I’m sorry, but when did that occur?
Or are you really so stupid that you cannot fathom the fact that I presented facts to you which shows that nothing we do or don’t do has any bearing on whether muslims attack us?
Just answer any ONE of the above four questions.
Or are you just going to call it “stupid?”
Obama is adding to his walk back of his disastrous speeches on Israel and the peace process….I wrote of how he had a spokesman do his walk back here:
@Nan G:
Now Obama, himself, has said this:
Read more
WELL,……DUH!!!!!!
That’s what we’ve been saying for days!
Obama also walked back his demand that a ”right of return” must be imposed on Israel, allowing the entry of perhaps 8 million of the original people and their children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren.
Obama added:
Total 180.
I wonder if the media will just pretend it didn’t happen?
In the Newspeak book, 1984, George Orwell had Big Brother change wars in the middle of one day without the media even noting it. The headline went from, “We have always been at war with Eurasia,” to “We have always been at war with Oceania.”
Is Obama’s media THAT compliant?
The source here is the Daily Caller, a web news site.
MORE walk back by Obama in an Israeli newspaper:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/obama-the-un-can-t-give-the-palestinians-a-state-1.364010
@anticsrocks
Kooks will attack for whatever crazy reasons they might have, and kooks have always run to religion to justify their messed up world views.
Back to 1801, the USA had good relations with Muslims, in particular with Morocco, who parenthetically was the first sovereign nation to recognize the colonies as independent states 1777. The Barbary Pirates were economic raiders, they wanted money regardless to the justification.
Oh… and much has happened in the world in the past 210 years.
First of all “Mata” did not present”. “Mata” cut/paste from that particular article linked. Since you prove yourself to be high on emotions, low in common sense, and even more deplorable in reading capabilities, his AF bio shows you to be tunnel visioned to his various titles in a plethora of departments in his career before he died in 1993… ranging from chief to assistant and deputy chief.
The error of his title was not mine, however his bio shows he was chief of various intelligence operations throughout his career, as well as deputy chief in others. This proves him to be more than credible for his assessment of the import of Israel’s intelligence contribution to the US. You’re credibility? zip… nada…. zero.
Really, blast. From your emotional armchair assessment, just how strong is the US HUMINT force in the ME?
sigh… I really get tired of you and a few others, telling me what I said, and getting it unbelievably wrong. That you mischaracterize my views on taxes and IRS reform remains as despicable as your personal disdain for Israel. I have said all over the tax cuts and economy threads that I prefer the Reagan method, which is… and always is… a combination of tax cuts and reform of credits, subsidies, rebates. What Reagan did was lower the individual tax rates. Since corporate contributions to the US revenue largely come in the form of the shareholder individual tax returns, this affects all in a positive matter. Then what Reagan did was remove particular and ineffective corporate benefits in order to kick start a stalled economy. That he did, as the economy did recover.
Obama’s policy of just taking and redistributing to the low income does not kick start an economy.
I suggest you do not attempt to speak for me, blast. You simply don’t have enough upstairs to handle that task.
@blast for brains: You said:
Yes, as long as we were paying their ransom demands, when we decided to quit paying it, the relationship kinda went sour.
Captain Obvious strikes again…and this has what to do with our discussion of the reasons muslims attack us?
.
.
@anticsrocks
Our relationship with Morocco did not go sour, and today they are a bull-work against fanatics. Our diplomatic relationship with Muslim Morocco is the longest unbroken treaty of relationship in US history.
Are you kidding? In 1800 we were a small nation with little ability to shape our destiny. Beyond that, much in human behavior has changed since 1800. If you can’t see that, we can just agree to disagree.
@ mata,
Ok, you want to be nitsy.
Mata, if you are going to present something here as a source, then you are responsible to correct the inaccuracies, especially when it inflates the value of your statement (and it is pointed out). The man was not chief of Intel. And he was not in office for the time quoted. That is fact.
I do not disdain Israel. I disdain the wanton dole we dish out over 65 years and counting. Israel has a right to exist, we have a right to keep our money and reduce our deficit and get our financial house in order.
On this whole intel relationship with Israel. I dispute our need to give them money. So are you saying that if we reduce and eliminate our aid to Israel that they would stop the bilateral exchange of intel? Do you think the intel we provide them is useless?
@blast:
The point is, that have derided the U.S. giving aid to Israel, and the only arguments that you present, in support of that, is that you believe the U.S. receives very little for that aid, and that you believe it is “open-ended” aid, or aid, “without an end in sight”. We have presented some, of the many, benefits that the U.S. receives from Israel, although not necessarily directly due to the aid we give them. You perceive those benefits as negligible. Fine. At least you have somewhat stated a standard, concerning the reciprocal benefit the U.S. should receive for monetary aid given. Yet, you have also stated that some aid, for other countries, you would continue to provide, but you haven’t shown that we receive greater benefit for the aid we give them, than we do Israel. So, your standard seems to be somewhat arbitrary. That is why I ask you to present cases of other countries we give aid to, and the benefit we receive from them. So that we have some standard on which to compare Israel with those other countries, and then be able to derive judgment, within our own reason, on whether or not you are right about what you claim.
Bad example. We provide funding already for such threat, by way of the World Health Organization, a sub-agency of the United Nations.
The point is that you must be consistent in your standards, whether you are for giving aid somewhat freely, or limited aid, or, as I advocate, none at all, at least to specific countries.
While people debate the pros and cons of the relationship the USA has had with Israel before now, the Muslim Brotherhood has influenced the military in Egypt enough to break the Gaza blockade.
The Rafah crossing between Egypt and Gaza will now be open from 9am to 9 pm 6 days a week other than holidays.
Now Israel cannot stop major arms shipments and jihadists from getting through to Hamas (the Palestinian branch of the Brotherhood).
Oddly, it was Hamas who closed their border crossings when they realized how many Gazans wanted OUT in 2008.
I think it was the Hajj time and there were thousands of Gazans who were planning to go on their once-in-a-lifetime pilgrimage…..but Hamas feared too many of them would never come back.
Sort of like East Germany and the other Iron Curtain slaves.
So, we’ll see if Hamas really allows their own people to ingress and egress or if it is just a sham.
The Hamas used their all-or-nothing ploy to justify their prevention of Gazans from leaving for the Hajj.
If the Saudis didn’t allow ALL Gazans in for Hajj (including many on the Saudi terror watch list) then no one could go.
Of course, the Saudis let all of the West Bank pilgrims come.
So, something else was up.
bozo …. blast… dearie. It’s you who is “nitsy”. He was a former chief of US AF Intelligence. He was also a deputy chief of US AF Intelligence. He was also a direct of operations and an deputy assistant to the director of the Joint Chief of Staff. That they did not apply dates that suit you (and in fact didn’t include the entire span of his intelligence service) or didn’t elaborate on how many different divisions and agencies he was assigned to between 1947 and to his retirement is not my fault. Nor do I care. None of it has shit to do with the fact his bio bears out his stellar credibility on the issue, and substantiates his access to information on which he based his comment.
I repeat, your credibility dearie? None. But we are always amused at your desperation in tangents when borne out wrong. Care to argue his credentials as an informed source, or are you insistent upon leaping off of another diversionary cliff to make yourself feel good?
Tell me blast, how much intel do we give Israel? More than they give us? Who has the vast array of HUMINT in place in the Middle East for survival?
You dispute the “need to give them money” for your own personal purposes that seem to apply only to Israeli Jews. Can’t take away anything other than that from your repeated commentary here…. of which I excerpted above. That ugly side of you is your problem. Right up there with your refusal to recognize their contributions to our national security and savings in both troop presence and lives by being a nation that not only defends themselves, but aids us by doing missions like taking out Iran’s nuke facility. Not to mention Syria’s in the recent past.
I’ll tell you what is useless here… you. And now I remember why Curt banned you a year or so back.
@blast for brains: You said:
I believe the term you are looking for is “bullwark.”
Not sure it works in your sentence, but none the less, there you go.
Now as to your assertion about Morocco:
As I said, our relationship with these states was workable until President Jefferson decided that enough was enough and we went to war.
You then said:
Okay, first of all we WERE a small nation, but the Barbary Wars served notice on the world that America could and would defend her interests.
Secondly, we weren’t talking about human nature, we were talking about muslim fanatacism and I showed that the Barbary pirates and the subsequent discussion between President Jefferson and the Tripoli Ambassador demonstrates the radical way of thinking shared by all muslim terrorists and that is that their religion teaches them to kill infidels. You were making the point, but have since dropped it, that if we were to just leave Israel to fend for itself the muslim terrorists would have no reason, or “blow back” to attacks us.
As far as agreeing to disagree, I will agree that you are unable to pick one topic and stick to it; particularly when you are losing the argument. lol
blast, you make an assertion and then when called on it, you dissemble and try to change the topic.
Bad form, old man.
.
.
Let’s add a bit more fuel to blast’s fire… from Global Politician, an
Apparently about 50 retired generals and admirals also disagree with your distaste for Israel as a valued asset as well, as evidenced by letter they signed and sent to both Obama and Congress.
Not enough yet, blasst? How about Army and Marine Brig. Gen. Michael Vane, Deputy Chief of Staff at the US Army’s TRADOC, noting that it was IDF who did the training for the Army and Marines who won the battles of Fallujah and Mosul? They not only trained in the Negev desert at an Israeli urban warfare facility, Israeli commandos were training US forces at Fort Bragg in 2003.
We also learned successful interrogation methods from the Israelis as well (I’m sure you’ll come back with some snide comment about torture…..). Physical punishment is banned in Israel.
It seems Israel was written all over US urban warfare techniques in Iraq – from training to roadblocks and to techniques for tracking using UAVs.
@anticsrocks
You need to learn history and not just google talking points for pleasure.
Morocco in 1777 recognized the United States, the first country to do that.
Then in 1786 Thomas Barclay negotiated Moroccan–American Treaty of Friendship and it was signed by Thomas Jefferson and John Adams (as ministers), and Muhammad III… it was ratified by the Confederation Congress in 1787 and is the LONGEST UNBROKEN TREATY WITH THE UNITED STATES.
Get your facts straight! During our war with the Barbary Pirates it did not include Morocco, the treaty predated the war by 14+ years.
Morocco’s piracy against the USA:
The four Barbary States of North Africa – Morocco, Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli – had plundered seaborne commerce for centuries.
Morocco, which in 1777 was the first independent nation to publicly recognize the United States, became in 1784 the first Barbary power to seize an American vessel after independence.
Oren, Michael B. (2005-11-03). “The Middle East and the Making of the United States, 1776 to 1815″.
Surviving by blackmail, they received great sums of money, ships, and arms yearly from foreign powers in return for allowing the foreigners to trade in African ports and sail unmolested through the Barbary waters. They demanded tribute money, seized ships, and held crews for ransom or sold them into slavery.
In the years after United States independence, American merchant ships, no longer covered by British protection, were seized by Barbary pirates and American crews were enslaved.
In 1799 the United States agreed to pay $18,000 a year in return for a promise that Tripoli-based corsairs would not molest American ships. Similar agreements were made at the time with the rulers of Morocco, Algiers, and Tunis.
In May, 1801, the United States refused to succumb to the increasing demands of the Pacha of Tripoli; in return, the Pacha declared war against the States. While Tripoli was not a strong power and little effort was necessary to watch and blockade it, the fear was that the other Barbary powers [including Morocco]would join against the United States. The United States sent naval squadrons into the Mediterranean under the slogan of “Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute!”
mata, you did not answer my question Mata, or are you just avoiding it?
You have a lot of gall Mata. “my own personal purposes”. Is it the personal purposes of Ron Paul, the highest vote getter in CPAC Presidential Straw poll, or do personal purposes accrue to me. I am not the only person on the planet against unlimited foreign aid (FOR ANY COUNTRY!!!!!!!!!!!). The only reason I don’t say no foreign aid at all to anyone, I believe there may be a need for specific and limited aid. Like now, I would not say cut off aid to Afghanistan and Iraq, because it would increase our costs militarily while still there. Once we are out, the time clock should start. No open ended aid agreements with ANYONE. My feelings about Israel are focused on because this is a post about Israel, so it would make sense.
He banned me because of the sock puppets and because I used raciest language to describe Iraqis. I had admitted to the sock puppets when the matter was raised online, and did not continue the practice. I am not here to cause trouble… I state my opinions and if attacked, I return the barb. If you don’t like my opinion, feel free to ignore it mata. No one is forcing you to cut and past volumes of talking points.
So now are you saying my opinions are now going to be squelched because you vehemently feel our spending unlimited funds on foreign aid to Israel? When you are challenged you bust a vein Mata. If I had made any error even a tiny one you would point it out… so I do the same to you when you referenced incorrect information. You often are acidic and foster that behavior here, especially with people you disagree with.
MATA wow again, you are super, I wander what the top MILITARYS think of the COMMANDER IN CHIEF DOING IN THE HANDS OF HIS FRIENDS THE MUSLIMS COUNTRYS WHO CAN NEVER CHANGE THEIR HATE FOR AMERICA, AND BOOT ON ISRAEL THE TRUSTED FRIEND OF AMERICA.
HE IS ALL IN THE BED OF THE BROTHER HOWDY.
I bet they are thinking very hard now,
bye
Why, blast, would I bother to answer your off the cliff tangent questions when I’m still waiting for your “exit strategy” for any country’s foreign aid?
Cut and paste “volumes of talking points”?? OMG… I see. Proving that you’re an idiot for minimizing Israel’s import to the US for our own national security by giving you data and links to military intelligence personnel superior to your emotions is a “talking point. LOL “Bust a vein”, my arse. You’re a push over because I debate with statistics and educated opinion from those who are in the “need to know status”… what you call “talking points”. You, on the other hand, come from the “voices” you hear at your keyboard.
As far as not liking your opinion, and feeling free to ignore it, well blasst. Think I’ll take ya up on that one. You’ve not contributed one iota of facts and detail to back up what appears to be a hypocritical foreign policy towards Israel. You’re genuinely a waste of time to debate. All emotion, no substance. And you may want to go back to the first comments I did in response to you, and see why they have escalated to utter disrespect for you. You brung in on yourself. tisn’t my fault.
@NanG
“Diplomat Thomas Barclay managed to negotiate without tribute a treaty with the emperor of Morocco, mainly because that ruler disliked the British”
(“From Colony to Superpower, US Foreign Relations Since 1776″ George C. Herring, Oxford – from page 40.)
As to them seizing a ship in 1784, the pirates did. They did not recognize the flag. The question however is about the Barbary Wars, and in 1801 Morocco was not a party to war against the United States.
Here is the treaty (1786)
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/bar1786t.asp
@mata,
I think the exit strategy would be a point of discussion, the when and how is more nuanced than a larger strategy to eliminate open ended aid. See, I am open minded about reducing these dependencies. I did state that in the case of Israel I do not advocate an immediate elimination of aid.
Ok… I don’t think my question was a tangent. It is quite salient to the conversation, especially since you have spent most of your time arguing their intel is so vital. So,
I would also add… that in the broader relationship, don’t we support Israel in the United Nations and have their back in many other forums? You think that just the financial aid would cause a rupture where other parts of our relationship don’t count when it comes to intel sharing?
LOL. You are a piece of work mata. Just like Mike’s America. Very fair minded, level headed and nice.
@blast for brains: I am not the one who cuts and pastes ad infinitum without reading AND understanding what is being referenced. That honor hangs squarely with you, blast for brains.
You want to debate history? I am ready, willing and able to debate history with you. Unfortunately, you are unable to debate because every time you are proven wrong, you change the topic, dissemble or just plain ignore the facts.
You are a dolt who thinks he knows a thing or two, but when it comes down to brass tacks, you lose any debate that is on the facts.
As for your claims that we were not at war with Morocco, I believe Nan destroyed you on that point.
In case you really believe Morocco’s recognition of us in 1777, or the treaty that came later on, prohibited them from performing acts of war against the United States, you might want to reconsider.
Seems the Moroccan sultan, Sidi Muhammad was keenly interested in our War for Independence and tried repeatedly to get our attention. As Nan pointed out, by 1784 Muhammad became so frustrated that he ordered one of our ships captured, it was an American brigantine.
Still wish to debate history with me?
I didn’t think so.
@anticsrocks
I guess you can’t read (#295), or do math. 1784 is a years way from 1801… and we had a treaty in 1786… Ummm… and the first Barbary War was in 1801, when Jefferson was President… so name the ships and battles that took place between Morocco and the United States during that war? Oh, you can’t… because we were not at war with Morocco dumb dumb.
@blast for brains: Once again, you are WRONG.
You incorrectly said:
As I pointed out above, the Moroccan Sultan Muhammad ordered that ship be seized.
How does if feel to be wrong so often, blast for brains?
300!!!!! Boo-Yah!
Not bad, eh beezy??
.
.
@blast: Mata is correct when she states you have a glaringly obvious reading comprehension problem.
Let me repeat once again, when you stated:
You are claiming that due to the treaty, Morocco took no hostile action against us.
You reinforced your point later when you said:
Refer to my post #299 in which I lay out the fact that Morocco’s Sultan ORDERED the capture of the American ship.
Additionally, if it were merely pirates that absconded that ship, and not backed by the state of Morocco, why then did the treaty signed in 1786 end all piracy by Moroccon pirates against the United States?
Maybe you ought to think before you type, blast for brains.
.
.
anticsrocks, yey, you see them coming before they start typing,
they all have that certain TANGENTE TO THE LEFT, THEY EAT THEIR BEANS AND COME HERE ALL GAZED UP.
BYE
@ilovebeeswarzone: LOL!! I love it beezy!! “all gazed up!”
Priceless! Thank you dear, for my laugh for the evening. Sitting here in this hospital, it was nice to read your post and get my chuckle for the night.
anticsrocks you made the 3oo, you must be the only one to achieve that 300,
wow I had not focus on it, congratulation, this is a biggy, and think that I could have win it,
lol.. darn non pas moi , you seek the high notes all the time,
well you deserve this one, I would have BLAST BLAST IF HE WOULD HAVE TAKEN IT.
anticsrocks, how long you have left in there?
CURT, HI, can you send a bottle of champagne on me for having won the 300 post to anticsrocks/
Ride A Pale Horse, would you send a cyber champagne bottle too to anticsrocks
marked 300 on it,?
CURT a real bootle of champagne and a cyber one with 300 on it.
Contrary to the running off at the mouth of some around here, there is no such thing as budgetary commitments for “open ended” aid to Israel. That type of forever guarantee characterization is reserved for death and taxes.
There was a 10 year security agreement in 2007 with a suggested increase that I noted was from $3 bil to $3.1 bil annually in one of the ga’zillion links in my comments above (aka “talking points” to some). Each year this aid is presented in the POTUS budget as part of int’l affairs, and subject to Congressional approval…. assuming they’ll ever do a budget again.
That security agreement extends only until 2017 and has been approved every year by the Dem held Congressional majority. It has been presented by a President Obama this year to a GOP House and Dem Senate. Again, if they ever get around to doing a budget. Can’t even get these guys to vote on two different ones and force reconciliation.
Nothing beyond that time frame exists, and would have to be renewed with negotiations by current leadership of both countries..
Thus it is impossible – as blast continues to falsely suggest in order to hide his inconsistency – for Israel’s, or any other country’s, foreign aid to be considered “open ended”. Only the most uninformed about our appropriations process could suggest such a naive lie. In fact, for someone that wants a deadline, here’s your heads up…. there’s one every year.
At the whim of the POTUS or Congress, that aid amount can decrease, be eliminated, or escalate with events on the ground and in the region. It’s called defunding.
My suggestion to blast is that he go right ahead and gaze into his crystal ball for his “exit strategy. If nothing else, it’ll keep him and his voices busy.
But as far as I’m concerned, when he’s done gazing, he can
… talk to the hand. Frankly listening to someone give me their tarot card reading on the future status of world events – which is about as bright an idea as announcing to the enemy when you’re going to pick up your toys and leave the battlefield – isn’t worth a hill of beans, let alone bandwidth.
@ilovebeeswarzone: Hopefully I get out tomorrow (Wednesday) and get to go home to my family. My two year old daughter is a Daddy’s girl and I hear she is bouncing off the walls missing me.
Thanks for the bottle of booze!!
Bees… had me on the floor with the “gas” remark! LOL
@rocks in the head
You are either stupid or just an idiot. You are talking up 1801 and the Barbary War. Show me one instance where the United States was at war with Morocco after the Treaty of 1786/7.
YOU CAN’T!
Obviously you cannot read. I stated the historical facts. Morocco recognized the US in 1777. I agreed with you that the Moroccan pirates seized an American ship in 1784. You claim it was under orders from the Sultan, I dispute that, but in the scheme of your 1801 thesis that you have been posting CONSTANTLY you are 100% WRONG. America was at peace with Morocco in 1801. I asked for you to state the ships and battles, ANY battle between Moroccans and the United States post Treaty and you have supplied NOTHING. And for your stupid information… recognition is not the same as having a Treaty so don’t confuse my statements about 1777 and 1786… especially since I have spoon fed you the information like a 4th grader.
Now go look it up and find out you are wrong. Be sure to come back and set the record straight and also lets your minion beez know the truth too. That poor soul is having a hard time keeping up.
@ mata
LOL. 65 years on the dole and additional pre planned payments is not perpetual? LOL! That predates Medicare by… ummm… 17 years?
The fact that you’ve run off at the mouth for 20 some odd years now does not guarantee you will run off at the mouth for another 20, blast. ‘nuther tangent and mischaracterization to hide the fact that there is only a security agreement until 2017 that is up for approval, or disapproval, every year.
I suggest if you have a problem with each annual deadline that exists for what is not “open ended” aid… save in your mind… you write your Congressman. I also suggest you pick up a civics book first and read up on how our government works. Might keep you from further embarrassing yourself.
Other than that, it seems most of the legislative world, along with the military world, agrees with me that Israel is a valued asset. Which is why they approve it each year in varying amounts.
300+ comments….not a bad open thread =)
@blast for brains: I believe my post #301 lays it out quite nicely. The fact that you claim one thing and argue another when proven wrong isn’t my problem blast for brains, its yours.
Each and every time Mata or myself knock your idiotic arguments out from under you, then all you do is try and obfuscate the issue.
Nan showed you that we were at war with the Barbary states, of which Morocco was a member. I will admit that they changed their tune awfully quickly upon the actions of Commodore Preble. From the papers of President Thomas Jefferson:
From Columbia University, a source that I am sure that even a lefty drone like yourself can recognize:
What’s that?? Columbia University and a magazine published by a Saudi run oil company quoting President Thomas Jefferson BOTH state that the Sultan Sidi Muhammad ordered the attack on American ships! However you doubt it, and since you must be a higher authority than Columbia University and Saudi Aramco World and President Jefferson I guess they are wrong, huh?
So it looks like you are the one with egg on your face. Oh, and I would be careful if I were you on making ad hominem attacks on beezy. She has a wit and sense of compassion you just wouldn’t understand.
Just to wrap up, you have called me, on this thread – stupid, dumb and a 4th grader. LOL looks like you are the one that isn’t smarter than a 4th grader, even a 4th grader admits when they are wrong. Too bad you can’t, blast for brains.
You ARE entertaining, tho. I will give you that, kinda like a blind mouse in a maze – all sorts of action, but not much getting done.
.
.
CURT, thank you, and I owe you,
A 6 minute video by British atheist, Pat Condell, about Muslims, Hamas, Jews, Israel and real hatred.
Should be a featured post IMHO.