Discussion Transcript: Jeffrey Sachs and Fidias Panayiotou

Now Trump is starting. Now the Europeans and Zelensky said, Oh my God, Oh my God. Well, Europe should have been negotiating.

Out of the 720 members of the European Parliament, the majority of 500 of them they vote to continue this war to keep sending weapons.

Let me mention a secret to the Members of Parliament. If the United States stops, the war, is going to stop. All of this came about because of American arrogance and stupidity. Goes back 30 years. If people really think. That this started on February 22nd, 2022 I. They could understand what it means for my country, the United States, to have been engaged in 100 regime change operations since. The end of World War Two, 100. In March 2022, the Russians and Ukrainians say Okay. We can settle this on the basis of Ukrainian neutrality, the United States and Britain. Told Ukraine. Don’t sign that agreement.

Fight on how we think about foreign policy as you.

Know if Europe acts like 27 individual countries. I’m. I’m sorry it’s going to get to pieces.

How is it?

Going to deal with Russia. How’s it going to deal with China? How’s it going to deal with the United States? If I could put it? Quite bluntly, the past ideas about word were the unipolar. The current ideas are we take what we want if we want. Canada, Panama, Gaza, we take it. Is going to need.

Have diplomacy, not delusional diplomacy.

Can I call it grown up diplomacy? Childish. Not propaganda based diplomacy. Slogan based diplomacy. Not Russophobic diplomacy or cynophobic diplomacy, but real diplomacy. NATO should have been disbanded. In 1991, when the Warsaw Pact was disbanded and when the Soviet Union ended the goal of NATO of the US, it is to surround Russia. If you look at the Black Sea, you. Have Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey and Georgia. Completely surrounding Russia for the United States, this was a game. For Russia, this is core national security. Who do you think’s gonna win?

Who are you? I know everyone. Lot of people know you, but. Yourself. It’s interesting to see how you introduce yourself.

And your Sachs? I’m a professor at Columbia University and have been involved in global affairs and economic development for for a long time, so.

You know, I’m very excited today because you are not with your brain. You are not only just giving your opinion, but recently and for a long time you are influencing also politics, which is amazing just with your intellect and your opinion to influence politics around the world without being. In big positions in politics, so it’s. I’m very excited, but there is a lot of news that we need to talk about and recently you didn’t give talks about. The recent involve news about Ukraine and all this stuff. So how do? See the current state of the negotiations that is happening. Now, without Europe, just with Russia and United States experiment, everything about this.

Well, first, thank God there are. This war can end, and Europe should have been involved in negotiations with Russia, but it said no. Ukraine should have been involved with negotiations with Russia, but. Zelensky actually issued a decree back in October 2022. No negotiations. So there were no negotiations. Now Trump is starting. Now the Europeans and Zelensky said, Oh my God, Oh my God. Well, Europe should have been negotiating. My advice to Burrell? For years was go to Moscow to go talk. The diplomat. Didn’t happen because the attitude here was unfortunately for us as the enemy, we must defeat Russia on the battlefield. Must. And so there were no diplomats around. All the people who called themselves diplomats were basically arms salesman. They weren’t. Weren’t engaged in. Now we finally have some diplomacy. Started. It’s good.

It’s it’s crazy to me. A lot like majority, like out of the 700 members of the European Parliament, which one of them 720 majority of 500 of them, they vote to continue this war to keep sending weapons. So it’s. No wonder that they don’t want us into negotiation, and I heard.

Let me mention a secret to the Members of Parliament. If the United States stops, the war, is going to stop. the United States has provided the arms, the financing for the armaments. The logistics. The Europeans can talk about continuing the. I think it’s a tragedy if they do, but it’s not going to happen. The war will end.

What we could do better as Europeans to be more influential in this thing and to play a part of these talks.

Well.

All of this came about because of American arrogance and stupidity. Sorry to say. This goes back 30 years. I hope some people here understand that this is not something that Putin started, although that’s everybody’s line. But if someone actually knows some history and I do go back. With advising Ukraine and Russia and the Soviet Union before.

Run.

So I’ve been involved personally in these issues since 1989. This Is Us arrogance that goes back to 1992, when the American said we run the world. The unipolar soul, indispensable nation of the world. Superpower. And then in 1994. Bill Clinton. Okay, we’ll expand NATO and it’ll just keep going eastward. We told the Soviets we won’t move one inch. Doesn’t. We’re going to do it. We do whatever we want. And big Brzezinski people here know they should go back and read his grand chess board book 1997, where he he lays out Washington policy. He actually has a. What will Russia do? As NATO expands eastward? And his conclusion is they can’t do anything. They’ll have to agree to whatever the United States says. So people should learn a little bit of history. They should understand that the United States, their ally, destabilize the nuclear control arms control framework in 2002 by unilaterally withdrawing from the anti Ballistic Missile Treaty. Was the single most. Destabilizing action by the United States. Even more than so many other terrible things, because the nuclear arms framework. Is the centerpiece of stability with Russia and the United States unilaterally walked out. The Russians were extraordinarily. Upset about this? And then the US started placing anti ballistic missile systems in Poland and. These Aegis missile systems and listen to what the Russians are saying. It would be like Russia putting missile bases in Mexico. Or Canada. You think America would say? Well, that’s their business. You know, how can we have any concern? And then if the United States expressed a concern, Russia would say, well, but Canada wants it or Mexico wants it. Is the childish attitude of the United States. Then in 2014. United States participated in a violent coup that overthrew the Ukrainian government and within a nanosecond of that violent coup, the US said. Recognize that new government? And then came the Minsk agreement and the Minsk 2 agreement was backed by the UN Security Council. And what did Ukraine and the United States decide behind the scenes? We don’t have to take that seriously. Forget it. Don’t like that agreement? Was at gunpoint. Security Council backs this unanimously. the United States says no, don’t worry about it. So the. Continues already from 2014 to 2021. Tremendous shelling and deaths in the Donbass region. Then Putin says at the end of 2021, we need a new security arrangement between Europe and Russia, between the United States and Russia. Europe, of course, doesn’t act at all because it has no foreign policy other than obeying the United States. The United States tells Putin no. We don’t negotiate over that big surprise that the war escalates. And then in March 2022, the Russians and Ukrainians. OK, we can settle this on the basis of Ukrainian neutrality. So what happens? We know what happens. We know from insiders what happened. the United States and Britain told Ukraine don’t sign that agreement. Fight on. This is even the words of one of the biggest bumbling idiots of our modern statesmanship, Boris Johnson. Who says? Western hegemony depends on this. Are you kidding? Yeah. Good. So negotiation stop Ukraine leads the negotiating table. Probably 1,000,000 Ukrainians are dead or gravely wounded since that moment. Zelensky issues a decree ’cause he rules by martial law. We say it’s a democracy. Rules by martial law and by martial law. Issues a decree. No negotiations with Russia. How clever. What about? Europe’s negotiators? Well, I’m sorry, but Mr. Brell was not negotiating with Russia. He was warmongering.

Blackmailing.

And Annalisa berbak. Foreign Minister of Germany a word of peace. We will never negotiate. Until this moment. OK, so finally negotiations are started. Ukraine will be saved by all of this. But the the issue here. Is there’s a history to this? If people really think that this started on February 22nd, 2022. My God, they could learn a little bit that there’s a little bit of background to this. They could understand what the US is. They could understand what it means for my country, the United States, to have been engaged in 100. Regime change operations since. The end of World War Two, 100. These are. This is you destabilize regimes you make. This is a game they might even read the New York Times, which once in a while tells the truth. Like the story about the CIA operations all across Ukraine. Aimed at destabilizing Russia. Is this how we behave as grown-ups in this world? Come on this. Is so dangerous.

So we shouldn’t. What the US was doing as Europeans, this is basically what you.

Are. Of course, Europe should have a foreign policy, but a grown up. Policy, a grown up foreign policy, means you actually sit down and discuss your concerns with the other side. You don’t just make hate speech or say you’re evil. That’s that’s. Negotiating the idea that, oh, negotiation is appeasement, appeasement is Hitler. This is the only. So never talk to the other side. This is a little primitive in this world. Really primitive but. What’s sad? I love Europe and I am. Trying desperately for years to say to Europe. The US, you’re going to put everything in in that hand, you don’t understand. How the US works, I’m sorry to say I was right. Now they’re running. Oh my God. How could they do this? And I would say, how could you not understand?

Thank you.

Maybe because I’m an American. I’ve lived through the Vietnam War. Lived through the Contra wars. I’ve lived through. The two Iraq wars I lived through, the US destabilization of Syria. Lived through the US destabilization of Libya. I’ve lived through the US invasion of.

Dead.

I’ve lived through the US complicity in this massacre underway in Gaza. Lived through every one of these. What would they like to know? That that’s their great ally and shared values and all the rest. I’m afraid. Europe needs a foreign policy. I’m stupid.

No. 24 years old. Even though I’m a member of the European Parliament but. Can you explain me simply?

Congratulations.

How should we think about foreign policy as Europe? We don’t really have a common arm is a bit complex. How we should act in US foreign policy, in your opinion in Europe.

First of all. It’s a complicated, multipolar world. With many great powers, not. So it’s not just the United States, but it’s also Russia. China, it’s India. And it should be Europe. Europe is a region of 400. Of course, Europe is a region of 450 million people. It’s got a an economy that is. Around $20 trillion. It is the center of world culture and civilization. And it has foreign policy needs and risks and just saying, OK, we let the US take care of all of this. Is not going to work. How’s it going to work if the US invades? Is that going to work very well? How’s it going to work if the United States threatens Europe? In countless different ways. Might how’s it going to work when the US has diplomacy with Russia and Europe does not, even though Europe and Russia are on the same continent, the United States is thousands of miles away. That going to work. So Europe needs to act like Europe. If Europe acts like 27 individual countries, I’m sorry it’s going to get picked to pieces. I’m sorry about. That in fact I not only am I sorry about it.

Because everyone disagree.

But everyone will.

About what?

And yeah, there’s Russia. There’s the United States doing this demand. This one making this. There’s this one making this demand internally a disarray. How can that be to Europe’s advantage? And you know, as I study American history quite a bit. We had an experience, although it was more than two centuries ago, the United States started as people know, as British colonies. There were 13 of them. Some had been set up by Royal Charter. Some had been set up by.

Repl.

Migrants and there there were the 13. Distinct colonies they united for the purpose of fighting for independence starting around 17741775 and then the Declaration of Independence in 1776. With French help, they beat the the British without French help. By the way, no America as an independent country, but with the French help, with France being a major power at the time. They the British. Said. Have your Independence Treaty was reached in 1781? What happened then was something like the European Union. The 13 formed. A kind of union, but it was a confederation and the governing constitution was called the Articles of Confederation was very weak. You needed unanimity. The taxes were only at the state level, not at the federal level. There was no National Defense. Was no national treaty. Thinking it’s a lot like Europe, you know you need unanimity on all of these issues. By 1787, six years later. Kind of miraculously, one leading politicians. We’re going to go down the drain. The British are going. Take us to. The Spanish are going to take us to pieces. The Spanish were trying to block the American access to the Mississippi River and and the port at New Orleans, for example. So they realized in this one political entrepreneur James Madison realized we better have a real union, not just a. Kind of. We get together and and we have a week union where there’s no real foreign policy and maybe I don’t think they called it a High, Representative vice president in the United States, but. But we didn’t have someone who could represent the United. We didn’t have the treaty making a power effectively, so they made a new constitution and they made a federal government that created a real government. Frankly, Europe needs to be more united right now. How is it going?

Federation.

Yes. How’s it going to deal with Russia? How’s it going to deal with China? How is it going to deal with the United States? If I could put it quite? Bluntly. And it needs actually a foreign policy. But then it needs to be a sensible form policy. If you live on the continent next to. You don’t stand up and scream every day. You’re evil. Evil. You’re evil. You actually sit down, discuss and negotiate. You don’t let the United States blow up the pipeline that provides the energy for Europe. And then sit there. Like a like a dumb idiot. Don’t know who did it. Well, I can give you 50 quotations by American official saying we’ll never let that. Happened. I can quote on video show you the President of the United States saying on February 7th, 2022, if Russia invades Nord Stream will be finished. And then the reporter. But, Mr. President, how can you do that? And he says, believe me, we have our ways.

If Russia invades, that means tanks or troops crossing the. Border of Ukraine again. Then there will be we there will be no longer North Stream. Two, we will bring it into it.

OK. What? How will you? How will you do that? Exactly. Since the project and control of the project is within Germany’s control.

We will. I promise you we’ll be able to do it.

Is that a? Well, the Europeans couldn’t figure that out. Little clue. There’s a chancellor Schultz standing next to Biden. Quiet. He heard all of this. And the pipeline gets blown up. We don’t know who did it. Don’t know. And then there are the investigations. But those have to be kept secret, even from the Bundestag, even from the public, even from the United Nations. This is not foreign policy. This is not foreign policy. This is doing what the United States wants. Now, you obviously can’t just follow Trump. Obviously they thought naively they could follow Biden. Could have told them. And I did tell them repeatedly. No, you can’t. You should understand the United States you should understand. How weak the foreign policy? You should understand how crazy the idea of us unipolarity is. Understand this. You know what I was told here? Don’t talk to me anymore. Because to be anti American. Oh, I’m not anti American. An American citizen. I have my. I have my family. I have my. I’m trying to get American foreign policy not. Wreck the world. But Europe should have its own foreign policy. Is the bottom line.

So, to summarize what you said, you want Europe to stop following each other and just decide for themselves and for what is good for them. Make some alliance with Russia. Some alliance with China. Some alliance with. United States, when it’s accused for us.

Exactly and to understand, because Europe does understand. The best is to do all of this under the framework of multilateralism. Actually, make the United Nations work.

Uh.

Strangely, if you ask of all the countries who ignores the UN the most, I’m sure every Member of Parliament would say, oh, Russia. But you know. I’ve actually done the numbers across many different dimensions. It’s not even. The United States is the country that ignores the UN completely. Although the UN sits on the East River. I work at the UN for the last 25 years, the US. Is the country least aligned with the UN? And for Europe, which is a. Look, it’s it’s a wonderful region of the. It’s it’s got the highest living standards of the whole world. It needs its. It needs to help other regions achieve this kind of quality of life, which is unique. To Europe, but to do that? An effective United Nations is the most important way. And so when I say be Europe, be Europe in a way that promotes. Also, a global rule of law, a global multilateralism. And stop just ducking under the United States. Whatever the US does. And if you see a coup led by the United States. Don’t just stand there and say, oh, we can’t say anything. That’s our. We share values with them. If you see pipelines being blown up, if you see. Regime change operations. You can’t just say, oh, that is normal if you see. The US complicity in what Israel is doing in Gaza, which I believe is a genocide. You don’t just sit there. You have your own policy. If you see after negotiating with Iran, the JCPOA. In 20/15/2016 and then Trump comes in in 2017. Blows it off. You don’t just sit there quietly and say, oh, that’s our ally. the United States. We we can’t say anything. You have to have a European policy. Sometimes the US will do things right. Sometimes they won’t. Sometimes the US may do something in the global interest. Often the US won’t the. Us just walked out of the Paris climate agreement. Where is Europe on this? Well, maybe they mumble a few words so we don’t like that. But that’s our ally to transatlantic relationship. I don’t want Europe and the US to be. I want you to be a unified Europe as one of the great power centers of the world, because I do believe in Europe and I do believe what Europe stands for. Sustainable development. Is crucial and can work for the world, but not if it’s all subservient to some crazy ideas in Washington. The the past ideas of Biden were the unipolar world. No, the current ideas are we take what we want if we want. Canada. Panama, Gaza. We take it well. This is not going. Work either. So Europe is going to need. Have diplomacy, but if the diplomacy is only shouting against Russia, believe me, that’s not diplomacy. That’s not effective.

Delusional diplomacy. Diplomacy based on ground truth.

Can I call it grown up diplomacy? Not childish diplomacy. Not propaganda based diplomacy. Slogan based. Not Russophobic diplomacy or cynophobic diplomacy, but real diplomacy.

I want you to spoke about Trump. How do you? Did it surprised you and how Trump thinks about his foreign policy in a way? With now his is it true that I see that he’s moving away from? He doesn’t care that much about all the stuff, and he has other priorities. And can you define me?

Of course.

Are his priorities from the underlying moves that you see?

First of all. Washington is very noisy. Trump is, as an individual, very noisy everyday, something a little bit different. I wouldn’t say that this is a a deep strategy or.

Once an exciting time for politics.

Well, it’s a very interesting time to watch. It’s a showmanship and it’s 24/7. Media and so. But it’s a little unstable. And Washington itself is very divided because we have a deep state. Have a. We have a. We have military industrial complex. Don’t like some of? Some of this they like and so on. So there are lots of. It’s not a simple narrative, but the most basic points of Trump, I think, are the following. Trump probably. Says we’re not the only major power. We’re dealing with Russia, we’re dealing with China. So that’s a starting. It’s more realistic, actually, but there’s a certain unrealism about it as well. Trump is probably thinking, OK, I’ll make peace with Russia so that we can be more effective in making war with China. So I don’t see all the goodwill so far and and it’s very. Risky because there’s a lot of anti China. Emotion in Washington because that also plays into the American arrogance, the whole idea of America.

Yeah, it was exciting to see deep sick fear, but they’re afraid so much of China.

Yes. No. But the whole idea of America is American exceptionalism. And this manifests in a number of ways, but the basic ideas for that, that mentality, America is #1. And so China is the biggest affront to that more than Russia. So part of what’s going on with Russia is we we normalize with Russia so that we can focus on China but not in the right way, but in a dangerous way. It’s not.

Afraid of this?

It’s not all a safe world right now. Second thing is the other. There are three big hot spots in the geopolitical. There are other hotspots like Sudan or Democratic Republic of Congo, which are major conflicts but not geopolitical, in quite the same way. So the three big geopolitical conflicts are. The US war with Russia in Ukraine ’cause that’s Aus Russia war. That’s a war over NATO enlargement, fundamentally. The second is the war in the Middle East, which is. Basically, Israelis war to crush the Palestinian people. That’s the basic idea, and the US has sided with that for decades. Because the US is in the hands of the Israel lobby to a very. Weird, really weird, and very discouraging extent. The third conflict is the US China competition. What’s that about? China’s not doing anything bad to the US. It’s not invading the. It’s not threatening the US, it’s just too big. It’s too successful for the US it. Is a bigger economy measured in purchasing power prices? That’s an affront to the United States. I can only tell you it’s almost a neurotic reaction because China’s too successful for the United States. It has to be confronted, so those are the. The areas and Europe doesn’t show up in this partly because. Europe has been so subservient to the United States. Over decades that the Trump doesn’t even recognize Europe. Which is what’s. That you know, why should they be at the negotiating table? Are they? So the whole thing from all he wants from Europe is buy more American weapons. So he’s an arms salesman, but other than that, I don’t think that there’s much much interest.

Europe. That’s why he’s asking for everyone to increase the budget of NATO, right?

Of course. And by the way, of course, but one thing. Sure, and quite serious. Europe should have its own defense, not NATO. It should have a European defense, and when it makes procurements. It should be European, not American procurements. If Europe smart, why are you spending?

You don’t like the NATO alliance? It’s not usual for. It’s only useful for.

NATO.

Us you mean?

NATO should have been disbanded in 1991 when the Warsaw Pact was disbanded and when the Soviet Union ended. What was NATO? NATO was to prevent a Soviet invasion of Europe. Russia was not invading Europe even. The PAP that you hear from the British or others. This is. Is absurd stuff. Of course, Europe has security. Europe wants to make sure that the Baltic States are are safe. So do I. But those are specific security issues that should be discussed with Russia. With the Baltic States under a framework like the Organization of Security and Cooperation in Europe. That is not a NATO business, especially when the goal of NATO of the US is. Completely different. It is to surround Russia. And it’s all explained for decades. If anyone cares to read about this, they would understand this.

So at first the Europeans to be able to play the game of the.

Well. European stock this is pretty. We we don’t spend much on defense and the US defends us. Okay, but with Europe went completely wrong was the. Failure to differentiate. Being defended from being offensive. And going the first wave of NATO enlargement was already a cheat on the agreement. It was hungry. Poland and the Czech Republic, the Russians said. We don’t like this, you told us. But how much did they complain? A bit, but these are countries not on their border. Then the next wave. Ooh, that got right up to the collar because that was.

Scott.

The three Baltic states, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and it was also Black Sea countries. So starting this action in the Black Sea. Bulgaria and was Slovenia and Slovakia. And the Russians said, you’re getting awfully close.

Ah.

You promised you want to do this, and in 2007 Putin made a famous speech at the Munich Security Conference. Don’t go any farther. Stop. Of course, when the United States hears this. What do they say? Ah, we have to go. No one tells us what to do. Believe me, this is the American mentality. Grew up in that country. I understand. And so in 2008, at the Bucharest Summit.

As Biden was saying, a lot of times you have the ******* United States of America.

2008 in Bucharest. Chancellor Angela Merkel knew. This is very dangerous cause the US wanted a commitment to Ukraine and to Georgia. She resisted. Many European leaders resisted. Many talked to me about the meeting afterwards and then in the end, Europe folded its hand because. S. Because the US calls the shots and in 2008 in the Bucharest NATO summit, the fateful promise was made that Ukraine and Georgia would become part of NATO. Why Georgia?

OK.

This is also good geography. Georgia why Georgia? Because if you look at the Black Sea. You would have Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey and Georgia. Completely surrounding Russia. Now, why would you do that? Because a geographer would tell you. Bruschinski would tell you that ends Russian power in the eastern Mediterranean in the Middle East.

OK.

That surrounds them. This is clear and by the way, it was exactly the idea of Palmerston and Napoleon the third in 1853 in the first Crimean War. This is the second Crimean War we’re fighting right now. It was exactly their idea. Taped the Russian fleet out of the Black Sea. We’re doing it again. Is primitive. Stuff. Do we really have to have this war and?

But now Trump understood that it’s not. Danger, Russia.

He understood exactly. Hit China.

The. So he’s removing the focus from there.

That’s it. And one should understand and this is really the point, and it’s really the tragedy. For the United States, for Brazilski and others, this was a game. Kind of. He called it a chess board. This is a game for Russia. This is core national security. Okay, now you’re fighting right on Russias border. One side, its core national security, the other side. A game. Who do you think is going to win?

The Russian people that they think is an existential threat to them.

Thank you. A little obvious. I said this to the Ukrainians repeatedly. I said this to.

So so.

I said this to Burrell repeatedly. I said this to many European leaders repeatedly. There was not independent thinking allowed. Because this was Aus led game. Because Europe didn’t have a foreign policy.

So just to summarize, everything you said, so you are saying that Europe needs to get out of NATO or inform their own kind of army?

You would. Yeah, you’re exactly your. Its its strategic autonomy is, I think, is the technical phrase. Needs its own military and defense. It needs its own military and defense industries, by the way, not to be spending 80% of its outlays on the United States. That’s our business. That’s what Trump’s an arm salesman. But Europe needs to be able to develop its own capacity and then. Europe is one of the great powers of the world, and it should sit down with Russia and say we had security issues. We don’t like our eastern border. Feels. What should we do about it? How are we going to have relations that are stable? Because for Russia it’s also an issue positive to have stable relations. Russia just saw the US pushing further, putting its missile systems putting NATO enlargement. Leaving the intermediate nuclear force agreement. The ABM agreement. Europe wouldn’t acknowledge any of those provocations because the only word you could use in Europe is unprovoked. So if Europe is grown up in this, if I could use the expression in Europe as 2000 years old and the United States 200 years old. So Europe really should be 10 times more grown up than the United States. It should act as Europe and it should negotiate with Russia. It should negotiate. With. It should negotiate with the United States. It should. Multilateralism and the United Nations, it should have its military defense, no doubt about it. But it shouldn’t farm it out to the United States.

And a bit afraid of what you’re saying because you are stupid and it’s proven that we are stupid and we are going as a double edged sword to have. Army and to use it in their own.

Europe is in right way. Is not stupid. Europe.

Our leaders.

Six ball.

It has a very bad habit of fighting inside Europe. That is a. Maybe.

A.

Europe, meaning meaning too many wars inside Europe since the fall of the Western Roman Empire in 476, it’s been pretty fragmented nonstop war. So this is a. This is there was a 100 years of relative peace, partly based on European imperialism outside of Europe, but. Since 1945. The best piece real piece. And Europe now should take that strengthen the European institutions, not weaken them, but also understand that in our world today you need a strong and independent Europe which.

Select.

Is reflecting European security issues. I don’t say that. The issues with Russia are. Non existent if I were the Baltic states, I’d be worried. But Russia invading France? I don’t think so. Russia invading Western Europe? No way. So there are real issues and the real issues are how do we make sure that this boundary is not a conflict line. But a proper line. A mutually respectful 1. Well, to my mind, frankly, you wouldn’t freeze $300 billion of Russian assets in Belgium in euro clear. You wouldn’t taunt Russia every single day as if there weren’t other reasons for all of this. You would say that, OK, we understand you have reasons for all of this and many of them legitimate. We have our fears. How do we work this? Because whatever happens, we’re sharing this continent together and maybe we go back and revisit the concept of collective security in the OSCE, which to my mind is a hugely, hugely.

Take another look.

Official idea? Much better than the NATO US versus them ID.

Another two questions, but before I say that I’ll ask two questions. I want to say that with your ideas and all your interviews that you did and all this stuff. I saw a lot of them and that’s why I voted the way I voted to stop the war in. European. So your videos have an impact also in legislative and also in the stuff. I don’t know if that’s.

Let’s make peace together. This is good.

Helpful for you to see the impact the second. Question is. Professor Messina is another great like you about foreign policy, and I know you have one defense in the way that you see. The kind of world. I saw some interviews and I didn’t understand exactly what is the difference in.

Your work.

You can explain us.

So. One simple way to say it is 3 conflict regions. Ukraine, Middle East, China on two out of the three, we see completely eye to eye on explaining the source of the crisis on explaining how it should be resolved on explaining the US foreign policy mistakes. On the 3rd on China, we have a difference of view. John, who’s a very good friend and a wonderful, wonderful scholar, says well, it’s inevitable that the US and China are going to compete with each other, and even that competition. Can fall into conflict, and that conflict could become a war. His big. His magnum opus is the tragedy of great power politics. My view is no. We must not have a tragedy, a mean, especially if I could say in the nuclear age, no tragedy, no war with China. We have to. Absolutely. Say we’re not going to have a war with. So we have to take steps both sides, not to provoke each other. So my view is, for example, the US should stop arming Taiwan. Because Taiwan could very well become the Ukraine of East Asia. The place where there’s the war between the US and China have some restraint on the US side. I do not want China arming Mexico or Canada. Even if those two countries are uncomfortable with the United States, I do not want China arming them. And if China did, we’d likely have a war with China. And the United States should think basically the golden rule. We should not do what we don’t want China to do to us. So that’s my argument. John’s argument is. It’s inevitable who follows the golden. We’re going to have a conflict, I say, John. It’s kind of a self fulfilling prophecy says yeah, it is. John, it’s a tragedy. Yes, Jeff, it is a tragedy. And so part of it is. I’m just a believer that we can construct peace and he’s more of a pessimist. But we’re dear friends, by the way.

So you have a bit more optimistic view that you can make things not to come to lead to a conflict with charina in the long term. And he says it’s enough.

That’s it. He doesn’t say it’s inevitable, but he says it’s so. To stop. And my view is we have to do everything to try to stop it.

And I want to say before the last question that is from the bottom of my heart. Thank you. I love you and this was an.

It’s great to be with. Thank you so much and congratulations on being. The voice of young people in Europe and and also just helping to understand these issues, which is so great.

Yes, more information, especially like this grounded is always good transparency. The last question is you are going to. Die. In. 30 seconds. If this was true. What your last words. In this planet you wanted it to be.

I would hug my children and grandchildren and my wife. That’s what I would do for the last 30 seconds, frankly, because everything that I’m doing, I feel is. For my grandchildren and everyone else’s. Grandchildren. That’s honestly how I view this, which is. We were the grown. We should act like grown-ups to take care of our children and our grandchildren.

Thank. Thank you guys for watching until. End we love you.