Let’s look at the Martin/Zimmerman timeline.
First we have to audio clip that Mata provided for us.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9A-gp8mrdw[/youtube]
And the transcript is here
The official audio can be downloaded here.
To begin with, Zimmerman is in his vehicle (1) as he speaks with the dispatcher. At 0:56 of the clip
“That’s the clubhouse, do you know what the- he’s near the clubhouse right now?”
“Yeah, now he’s coming towards me.”
It does sound as though Martin (2) is walking in a direction away from the clubhouse, toward Zimmerman. Zimmerman says Martin is near the clubhouse, but Zimmerman does not say that he is near the clubhouse. The clubhouse is near the main entrance on Oregon St.
Zimmerman expressed concern that Martin might be carrying something as he approaches:
“He has his hands in his waistband. He is a black male. Something’s wrong with him. Yep. He’s coming to check me out. He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. Send officers over here.”
Zimmerman begins to give instructions as to his location when Martin begins to run and Zimmerman exclaims
“Shit, he’s running.”
At 2:10 of the audio recording, the vehicle door can be heard to open and at 2:14 it closes. By this time Martin has passed from near the clubhouse toward the area between the 13 and 28 buildings. Zimmerman begins to chase and you can hear the rustle of his clothing and his breathing at 2:19. The dispatcher ask if he is chasing Martin and Zimmerman acknowledges that he is. At 2:26 the dispatcher says:
“OK, we don’t need you to do that.”
Zimmerman says “OK” and the rustling ends at 2:42.
At 2:38 Zimmerman says “He ran” and apparently lost sight of Martin. Martin apparently escaped.
Zimmerman remains on the phone with the dispatcher until at least 4:12. During that time he describes his location and directs the dispatcher to the location of his parked car.
Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that’s my truck…[unintelligible]
Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?
Zimmerman: I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address.
That puts Zimmerman’s vehicle on Twin Trees Lane. According to one report, near the bend. Martin apparently fled in between the 28 and 12 buildings toward his father’s girlfriend’s place, located near the back entrance of Twin Lakes. It is the direction Zimmerman described.
Dispatcher: “He’s running? Which way is he running?”
Zimmerman: “Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.”
Zimmerman’s phone call was received at 7:11:12. At 2:42 on the audio, Zimmerman stopped running and lost sight of Martin. That puts it at 7:13:54 or so. Zimmerman continues to speak to the dispatcher until at least 4:12 of the audio, or 7:15:24. It’s reported that the phone call to Brandy Green ended at 7:16. The fight and shooting took place between then and when the police arrived at 7:17.
This is the point the gaps exist.
Zimmerman is reportedly parked on Twin Trees Lane. He says Martin is coming toward him, and then he says Martin runs. Zimmerman says that Martin runs “towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.”(3) That is SE of Zimmerman’s position and it is in the direction of the home of Martin’s girlfriend. (4) Zimmerman begins chase, but then stands down when it was requested he do so and he apparently loses sight of Martin. The question is, which way did Martin run? If he ran down Twin Trees avoiding Zimmerman (5), Zimmerman could keep him in sight for some time. That would put Martin some distance from where the altercation occurred- in between 1321 and 2821, as described in the police report. (6) Martin was initially placed near the clubhouse. If he reversed course, say to head up to Retreat Circle (7), then Zimmerman would not have described him running toward the back entrance on South Oregon. If Martin ran toward the area in between buildings 28 and 12 passing near Zimmerman’s car and then turning the corner, Zimmerman would lose sight of him quickly.
This is all of significance because there was less than a minute in between the time Zimmerman ended the call to the police and the beginning of the altercation as the phone call from Martin to Green is said to have ended at 7:16 and Zimmerman was speaking to the dispatcher until 7:15:24. That’s about 30 seconds for Martin and Zimmerman to come together.
Zimmerman had no idea to where Martin was headed. Zimmerman did not catch Martin while Zimmerman was on the phone and Martin had a head start even if he only “walked fast” he still could outpace Zimmerman. Yet somehow they could not have been farther apart than about 30 seconds closure.
Then we come to some other questions. If Zimmerman was “hunting down” Martin as some have opined, why did he not simply shoot Martin upon encountering him? Why would Zimmerman get so close to Martin that Martin could punch Zimmerman in the face and knock him down if his intention was to kill Martin? (BTW, ABC News has had an epiphany. It has decided that George Zimmerman had injuries after all) Would a person bent on murder allow himself to be assaulted and still expect that he could reach and fire his gun? If Zimmerman was brandishing a gun what could possess Martin to attack him? No reasonable person is going to charge someone aiming a gun at one. Zimmerman agreed to meet with the police as they arrived. Why would he agree to meet them and then chase after Martin to kill him? Why would someone bent on murder hold Martin at gunpoint while he screamed for 40 seconds? Because he wanted witnesses to the murder? Why didn’t Zimmerman run if murder was the goal?
None of this makes any sense.
Now let’s consider what probably happened. Back to the NY Times
Soon, callers to 911 were describing the presence of police officers, and the beams of flashlights gliding over a section of grass a few dozen yards from Trayvon’s destination, where a boy inside was waiting for Skittles.
A few dozen yards. A few is about 3. Three dozen yards. 36-40 yards. 120 feet. George Zimmerman loses sight of Trayvon Martin at 2:38 of the call, or about 7:13:50. Martin has until 7:16 to cover the “few dozen yards” to make it to the safety of Brandy Green’s residence. Zimmerman remains on the phone until 7:15:24. Martin’s girlfriend said the phone call went “dead” at 7:16, but Martin and Zimmerman were already exchanging words. According to Martin’s girlfriend, the conversation was initiated by Martin. The window between the end of Zimmerman’s call to the SPD and the meeting is brief. Really brief.
Martin had over two minutes to reach Green residence. Why didn’t he go there? This suggests strongly that Martin did not go to the Green residence, but instead hid somewhere, waiting for Zimmerman, and then confronted Zimmerman. Martin spoke first to Zimmerman, not the other way around. I think Martin approached Zimmerman’s car from the direction of the clubhouse, passed the car and then bolted. Martin then rounded the corner and hid. Zimmerman pursued until being asked to stop but lost Martin. As Zimmerman turned to head back to his car, Martin came out of hiding and confronted Zimmerman. The rest is history.
DrJohn has been a health care professional for more than 30 years. In addition to clinical practice he has done extensive research and has published widely with over 70 original articles and abstracts in the peer-reviewed literature. DrJohn is well known in his field and has lectured on every continent except for Antarctica. He has been married to the same wonderful lady for over 30 years and has three kids- two sons, both of whom are attorneys and one daughter on her way into the field of education.
DrJohn was brought up with the concept that one can do well if one is prepared to work hard but nothing in life is guaranteed.
Except for liberals being foolish.
@The Strategic MC:
Thank you Mr. Strategic MC.
One has to wonder whether the ‘NO-LIMITS” son that was dropped in father Tracy Martin’s lap because mom couldn’t handle Trayvon while Trayvon was on his [what was it?] third suspension from school, and now Trayvon might have already been too much for dad to handle. Perhaps not, and having slipped out of the house without his father’s approval perhaps young Trayvon was angry because he may have guessed he had been found out by the retreating neighborhood watchmen. Perhaps Trayvon felt as though the game was up and he might as well have gotten his ‘licks-in’ with the watchman because he Trayvon was going to get into trouble anyway. Therefore no cellphone call to dad for help and advice and no retreat to his safe house.
@Aye:
I don’t think that’s what the law says; (2)(a) is germane:
776.041 Use of force by aggressor.–The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless: (a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant;or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
@drjohn:
I’ll say it again. Had Zimmerman not followed him and then gotten out of his car, the shooting would not have happened. Nevermind they said not to follow after he was already out of his vehicle. He should never have gotten out in the first place. Period.
MC, sorry but you clearly do not understand how the law works when it comes to carrying a firearm and lethal force. His actions put him in a situation where the use of lethal force became necessary. That is a huge no-no. I think it will come back to bite him in court. As for the the failure to charge Zimmerman, it was a case of a prosecuter being afraid of jury nullification. Notice he didn’t say that he thought Zimmerman hadn’t broken the law? Again, the lead investigator who also knows the law better than you also agreed he had broken the law.
Lastly, I’m not saying Zimmerman is guilty of murder or anything like that. I am saying he used poor judgement in his actions and put himself in a situation that made the end result much more likely to happen. You can play semantics and split hairs all you want, the facts are he screwed up and this is the price for those mistakes.
@Silverfiddle:
Ok, I’ll put myself in the young man’s shoes. Say, there is a Hispanic man who is substantially smaller than myself (at 17 I was 6’2″ like Tryavon Martin) what do I do? I get my @$$ back inside the safety of the locked doors of my nearby parent’s home ASAP. I would then call: dad, the police and maybe the neighborhood watch. I will not confront the suspicious man alone without respectable witnesses of my choice on hand.
Young Trayvon is skulking about a neighborhood with a history of break-ins. Young Trayvon is meandering about in the dark, in the rain without an umbrella. Why on earth would Trayvon go thorough the trouble of leaving his house in the rain and walk for blocks without an umbrella? Are tea and skittles worth that much trouble? You don’t think such odd behavior alone would not attract the attention of a competent watchman?
No, we do not have anarchy. We have a old fashion blue collar neighborhood. We have near anarchy where the Underclass overwhelmed blue collar neighborhood after blue collar neighborhood.
@ilovebeeswarzone:
Thank you Mr. ilovebeeswarzone. My parents grew up in an ethnic working class neighborhood that was overwhelmed and destroyed by the Underclass. I live in a middle class neighborhood with posted neighborhood watch signs. Those signs are posted to let passersby know that the neighborhood is under neighborly surveillance. Much like a street sign for a speed limit or parking restrictions one might expect young Trayvon to have noticed and understood those signs if posted.
@Hard Right:
Being that you don’t know a thing about me and my background, you assume a lot. But do tell me how the law works. You assert much, but fail to either cite or substantiate. Does this mean that there is a secret or unwritten protocol that applies to the relevant Florida statutes, 776.012 and 776.041? The law seems pretty clear and I think that I fundamentally comprehend what the law clearly states.
Nullification or exoneration? Heretofore non-determinate physical evidence and suppositions do not a case make.
His actions did not take place in a vacuum; it will be the legally proven interaction between both Zimmerman and Martin that determines the outcome of this case.
@The Strategic MC:
George Zimmerman’s actions put him in a place where a good faith neighborly answer by Trayvon Martin would have been the most likely and reasonably expected response. The next most likely response response would have successful retreat and evasion by Trayvon Martin. Actual violent confrontations such as this seems to be rare. Thus unless other facts come to the fore George Zimmerman appears to have acted reasonably.
Mike O’Mally
we have not come across the info about your sign question,
and I strongly think that if there would have been one or more in that neighborhood,
it would definitly have diminish the astronomical amount of crimes having done in close previous times,
I don’t remember the amount of crimes some with attack serious, what I remember is my outrage of the numbers I read, and for only that particular place all concentrated in there, and when I read the call from ZIMMERMAN to the dispatcher he said of STAYVON LOOKING AT THE HOUSES AS HE WAS WALKING, IT SEEMS A NORMAL THING TO DO BUT IT BROUGHT CONCERN TO ZIMMERMAN WHO ADDED,;
THERE AS BEEN A LOT OF BREAKIN LATELY, IT MADE ME THINK THE 17 YEAR OLD TEEN AGE BOY, WAS MAYBE CHECKING FOR AN EASY BREAK IN TOO, WE KNOW HE HAD BEEN ASK WHERE THE JEWELS BELONG TO HE CARRIED IN HIS BACK PACK PREVIOUSLY IN HIS SCHOOL IN MIAMI,
HE ANSWER HE WAS HOLDING IT FOR A FRIEND WHO ASK HIM TO HOLD ON IT, SO
IT WAS NORMAL FOR ME TO PUT THAT TOGETHER EVEN IF HE COULD HAVE CHECK SO TO TELL ANOTHER TO ROB THAT PLACE OR OTHER ONE, WE ALSO NOT BLIND ENOUGH TO KNOW
THEY ARE NOT ALL ALONE, THEY HAVE OTHER TEENS FOR HELPING FOR SURE, SO THIS MADE ME FIGURE MY OWN CONSTRUCTION, WITH ALL THOSE PIECES, AND ADDING OR REMOVING MY WORDS AS THE OTHER BITS CAME, BUT YOUR THE FIRST ONE TO ASK OF THE SIGNS,
IT’S STRANGE BECAUSE OF IT IS AN IMPORTANT FACT TO HAVE BEEN MENTIONED,
SO MOST LIKELY THERE WAS NONE AT ALL.
BYE
ADDING UP; THE SIGN WOULD HAVE INDICATE TO TRAYVON , WHO WAS BEHIND HIM, AND PROBABLY REFRAIN TRAYVON TO TURN ON HIM AND BEAT HIM, AND SAVE HIS LIFE, MAYBE
@Mike O’Malley:
Hence the highly public effort by Ben Crump and the other disreputables to inject highly specious assumptions into this case. The available evidence does not support their preferred version of events.
@ilovebeeswarzone: You know bees, who would be casually walking in the rain looking at houses when he is not wearing any rain gear. This behavior is very suspicious to me. Everyone here has been making best guesses as to what really happened and conclusions based on that. None of us witnessed anything. Anyone who has actually been involved in some kind of altercation or have actually seen an altercation knows that rarely do any two witness accounts or participant accounts agree. I am disturbed by the animosity on some of these posts when none of us posting have all of the facts. Right now with what I know, there is reasonable doubt that Zimmerman committed murder.
Randy
oh no not you, I must retract you last word and the you will have to get in too,it has become a challenge to find the right one,
you said MURDER, I SAY TO SAVE HIS LIFE,
OKAY YOUR CALL. JUST WHEN I THOUGHT I WAS DONE WITH THE CASE, WITHOUT BEING KILL BY ONE OF US, AND NOW KNOW YOU CAN SHOOT STRAIGHT, SO I consider me in danger for not agreeing.
bye
Randy
when your down with a big guy on top of you bashing your head on the concrete
after having punch and broke your nose, you yell help, no help, the guy stufle with you for your gun’
you take hold of your gun on a split second and you know the guy can kill you in his raging beating
what do you do, kill or get kill, no murder there, just saving your life, and you of all the people know that
because you must have gone through the same situation in IRAK OR YOUR WARRIORS DID
bye
How far away was the 7-Eleven store where Trayvon bought the candy and tea to the townshouse where he was saying?
Tracy, there is a map around, for you to see, I don’t know but it was shown on the map, bye
I’ll weigh in on this with two things against Zimmerman:
1) He continued to engage when advised not to by 911.
having decided to continue to engage against advice, ok fine.
2) Allowed a superior athletic subject to get within personal control range
Having worked security in the military I have big problems with Zimmerman’s choices that basically caused the situation to get out of his control, he was the self-appointed authority in this circumstance and he need to be better on his game. I’m not saying that TM doesn’t have some responsibility in this, but Zimmerman was the wanna-be cop, he had the weapon, he should have made better decisions.
All that being said, everything that followed the incident in the media and Democrat politicians, etc. is total horse pucky.
@Tracy:
How far away was the 7-Eleven store where Trayvon bought the candy and tea to the townshouse where he was saying?
Approx. 2 mile round trip to the nearest 7/Eleven.
Tea and candy meme has never been substantiated as fact, but was originally asserted by the Martin family attorney, Ben Crump .
@malize:
Cite, please.
Audio recording has him acknowledging the Sanford PD 911 dispatcher’s advice: ” Okay, we don’t need you to do that.” Also, the pace of his “pursuit” noticeably diminishes (as evidenced by the reduction in wind noise) after answering “O.K.” to the Sanford PD 911 dispatcher.
“2) Allowed a superior athletic subject to get within personal control range”
Zimmerman claims that he was approached from behind and confronted. Perhaps poor marks on Situational Awareness? Don’t know if he had the opportunity to retreat from within personnel control range once confronted.
Completely agree with you with regard to the disinformation campaign being conducted by the media and the Democrats.
Malize
hi, ZIMMERMAN, DID NOT ENGAGE HE TURN AND WAS WALKING TO GET IN HIS CAR TO WAIT FOR THE POLICE AFTER DESCRIBING THE EXACT PLACE, THEN HE IS ATTACK FROM THE BACK, THEY FALL ON THE GROUND BOTH HE GET HIS NOSE BROKEN HIS HEAD BASH ON THE CONCRETE AND THE PROVEN STRUGGLE FOR THE GUN, HE YELL FOR HELP, HE GET HOLD OF HIS GUN AND SHOOT AFTER BEING BLOODY HURT, NOT BEFORE, HE IS ALIVE THE OTHER FACE DOWN
HIS 2 HANDS ON HIS CHEST DEAD
WHERE IS THE MISTAKE?
@ilovebeeswarzone:
Thank you.
Such signs were either present or not as a matter of fact. A fact which yet we do not know.
Tracy Martin, Trayvon’s dad, went out for dinner that evening. After which Trayvon left the house too but without calling his dad to tell his dad where and with whom Trayvon planned to be. Trayvon’s dad had no idea idea of when Trayvon planned to be home. He could only surmise with whom he hoped Trayvon would be. It was dark and raining. Trayvon walked for block and block on end in the rain with no umbrella. And for tea and skittles? Umbrellas are convenience in the rain. Umbrellas are an inconvenience for a burglar during a break-in. Trayvon would be out of the neighborhood in a number of days making police follow up more difficult … unless a neighbor or a watchman came to associate a suspiciously acting young male with Tracy Martin’s girl friend’s house some 150 feet away.
Yet we are supposed to believe that Mr. Zimmerman’s behavior was suspicious?
@The Strategic MC:
Is it true that Ben Crump et al are suing the Home Owner’s Association for damages? If so Ben Crump would have a likely financial interest in bullying the Home Owner’s Association into a generous settlement.
There should be a law against lawyers! We should settle disputes flipping a coing or dueling. Lawyers and the malpractice insurance needed to protect against lawyers are a primary cost of health care. You can bet there were many lawyers chasing the hearse. I wonder how much money Sharpton and Jackson are making off of this dead black kid? I think if anyone cared about this kid, he would still be alive. Maybe instead of arguing about the incident, we should be looking at the political policies that placed all of the players in this situation. This includes the police, the prosecutor, the families of both “victums”, the need for a neighborhood watch program and most of all, the “new society Johnson started. Our comments here will not resolve this incident. The truth will eventually come out. We should be looking at how we have allowed our society to degrade to this point.
Mike O’MALLEY
OKAY, HE GOT ANGRY BECAUSE HE WAS DISTURBED, and knew he did not have
to much time to follow up on his intent,
and anger building, he decide to beat the cr.. out of that guy with a cell phone
walking behind,
the guy turn about obeying the the dispatcher, and it came easy to jump him on the back, which impact got both on the ground the one under had turn his body to face the assailant before falling face up
followed by the other over him,[ maybe the broken nose was given before falling down, it sound better
to me, then as he felt the other lerk at a gun on his pocket, then the bashing head and struggle for the gun
and the yell for help, and the acknowledging there wont be help coming, then the desperate grab for the gun and the quick finger on the trigger, the attacker still hurting him, stop dead on him trying to squeeze out from under
bye I know I was not there, but I was rob before, and things happen fast if we are
afraid of loosing our life.
@Mike O’Malley:
Haven’t heard this, but it aligns with what I suspect to be the desired end-game: $$$. As Zimmerman presumably has little to no money, Crumb and the Martin family are in search of some deep pockets. The HOA for starters, then presumably the City of Sanford and on up the chain.
Btw, if Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense is substantiated, he is immune from both criminal and civil prosecution (F.S. 776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force).
Randy
yes the need is necessary, for sure, the young street hoodlums should be on a training to long enough to change their cult injected in them from poverty and neglect and violences training them to crime
and sure prison terms at the end, what did obama did for them, nothing good, there is more violence now
on his term, because he side on them as they rob community.
bye
@The Strategic MC:
Yes, keep believing he didn nothing wrong. I have tried to explain it to you, but you seem to be deliberately missing the point. Your actions that led up to the shooting will be held against you. As for what you know, or rather don’t know, you’ve demonstrated it with your posts. As was stated the lead investigator felt he had broken the law. The prosecuter did not disagree. Those are facts you cannot spin away despite trying.
Allow me to frame this another way. I grab my gun and decide to take a walk thru a bad neighborhood. As I do so, I’m violently attacked and forced to shoot the attacker who promptly dies. While I had every right to walk thru said neighborhood, it’s going to look bad when the shooting is being reviewed for justification. They will ask why did I choose to walk thru a bad neighborhood and do so with a gun? Was I looking for trouble? Was I hoping to get to shoot someone? Was I there for something other than a walk? Drugs? Prostitutes? They will also say that I knew there would be an increased likelyhood of having to defend myself or that I should have known. So regardless of how justified the shooting was, my actions leading up to the shooting could be enough to get me charged. Playing innocent/dumb and claiming I had a right to walk down that street and expect not to be attacked is correct, but won’t fly.
This is why I expect him to be charged. In a perfect world he wouldn’t be and there would be no question about his actions. If by some miracle he isn’t charged, expect him to be utterly destroyed financially in a civil suit.
I can only pray that those purposely ignoring Zimmerman’s responsibilities in the incident learn from them and don’t repeat his mistakes. I strongly advise you to study actual lethal force case law. Maybe then you’ll see what I am talking about. I’m talking about reality, not the way you think it should be.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/04/04/Congressional-Black-Caucus-Trayvon-Resolution
This is part of the issue.
No Zimmerman timeline is compete unless it includes the lead up.
In late 2010 and early 2011 George Zimmerman was one of “very few” in Sanford who publicly condemned the “beating of the black homeless man Sherman Ware on Dec. 4, 2010, by the son of a Sanford police officer,” who is white.
George printed and distributed copies of fliers on bright fluorescent-colored paper demanding that the community “hold accountable” officers responsible for any misconduct.
One of those fliers:
In a letter to Seminole County NAACP president Turner Clayton, a member of the Zimmerman family wrote:
Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/04/zimmerman-demanded-discipline-in-2010-race-related-beating-for-officers-who-investigated-martin-shooting/#ixzz1r6uEKWut
http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/02/zimmerman-family-member-calls-naacp-racists-says-there-will-be-blood-on-your-hands-if-george-is-hurt/
@Nan G: I think you’re going to see that again, Nan.
@Hard Right:
Let’s change that a little bit. You’re Neighborhood Watch. You’ve gone out for some errand but then you see someone in your neighborhood acting strange. You are entitled to conduct “non-contact surveillance.” Then all of a sudden the guy is in front of you. You ask him what he’s doing here and he punches you in the nose and jumps you.
Now what?
@The Strategic MC: I think that Al Sharpton could be coughing up some money, as well as Crump.
It’s not nice to lie about people.
@The Strategic MC:
Seconded.
@Mike O’Malley: OK, but you still haven’t described any illegal activity by Martin that warrants going after him with a gun.
@DrJohn:
Just so everyone knows where I’m coming from:
Let’s change that a little bit. You’re Neighborhood Watch. You’ve gone out for some errand but then you see someone in your neighborhood acting strange. You are entitled to conduct “non-contact surveillance.” Then all of a sudden the guy is in front of you. You ask him what he’s doing here and he punches you in the nose and jumps you.
When you describe it like that, Zimmerman has a case. The grand jury will hopefully establish the facts.
@Silverfiddle:
Now let’s reconsider that for a second. When he put on the gun, Zimmerman didn’t know Martin was out there. He had a concealed permit and went out.
I think there’s a big difference.
@ Greg #2, Randy
Thanks for breaking the tunnel vision,seem folks want to mud wrestle over the chicken and the egg and going all in when supposition is all we have between the last words on the cell phone and first witness seeing the fight. If Mama hadn’t yanked TM’s narrow ass up an sent him to Daddy to straighten out, this whole mess would be some kind of bad dream. She did what she thought needed doing. GZ was licensed to carry,living in a complex where police were called 402 times in 13 months. 30 times a month. 8 burglaries ,9 robberies and a shooting in2011. I think having a CHL in a neighborhood with those numbers is reasonable. I also think back when I was 17, ten foot tall and bullet proof and a car-wrecking little fool who was mad at the world and incapable of understanding anything my folks were trying to do to get me to my majority alive. TM was a seventeen year old mannish boy with all the hormonal angst that comes with that age. If you are already pissed off, Mama punts you to Daddy,you’re physically separated from your girlfriend and have a general case of the ass it probably wouldn’t take much to set you off. Do I know this is TM? No I don’t but if people are going to dissect GZ’ character and his actions that makes TM ‘s indicated behavior and motivation just as suspect. People seem to think that GZ’s actions in trying to determine someone’s intention or business in his neighborhood as an overstep. I live on 750 acres north of Ft.Hood, I have 3 waterfront parks and 2 Wildlife Mgt. Areas 5 minutes from me. I border on Coryell Co. which is Texas’ own little slice of Appalachia. Response time here is glacial, meth use, theft and armed robberies have occurred in the parks. I have lost equipment,had cattle and horses shot from the road and have white tail deer poached regularly. Do I carry? Yes. Do I stop and ask strangers in the neighborhood if I can help them? Yes I do. Do my neighbors do the same ? Yes they do and I’m thankful .
@DrJohn:
Except that isn’t what happened. The kid was walking down the street and doing nothing else when he notices someone following him in a car. The person persues him and even gets out of his vehicle to look for him. What happenes after that is up for debate.
I see some people don’t want to face reality. So be it. Don’t say you weren’t warned.
@DrJohn:
We can keep changing scenarios, but they continue to be purely conjecture. When an individual cannot defend himself because he was killed in an episode, investigators have a more difficult job of putting the clues and witness statements together. Waiting for the medical examiner’s report would be wise and should add more pieces of the puzzle. That report may not be released for quite some time.
I keep coming back to the rules and training of community block watchers, which are:
-Your job is to observe.
-You are not of vigilante status.
-If you see something suspicious, call the police.
-You are expected to be the eyes and ears of the police dept. only.
-You do not have the authority to apprehend.
-You do not have the authority to carry or use a gun when in the role of a block watcher.
The Sanford Police Dept. signed off on those rules when the program was initiated for the community.
@Silverfiddle:
When a Block Watcher carries a gun, he/she has broken the Program rules.
@Hard Right:
I believe that, based upon the available evidence, his culpability under the law has yet to be established.
Prob because the available evidence was insufficient to initiate the arrest, charge, and indict process and the State Attorney was concerned about such trivial matters as being sued for False Arrest and Malicious Prosecution. The lead investigator may have been motivated to do a little CYA, sensing that the political dynamics of this particular case were going to cause trouble. Would like to see some statistics that demonstrate the percentage of cases where LEOs urge charges, but prosecutors fail to take the recommended action. Not an inconsequential number, I’m sure.
Are you trolling for trouble or, making an innocent passage through the neighborhood enroute to the home of a friend, the grocery store, or your place of work? It makes a big difference. The reason why many states have adopted SYG laws is so that law-abiding citizens don’t have to abandon the public commons to the criminal element. Unless you are playing Paul Kersey in Death Wish, I still believe that the right of self defense would prevail if you were the victim of an unprovoked attack, regardless of your foreknowledge of the neighborhood’s crime rate.
I don’t think so, because he would then be subject to: F.S. 776.032-Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force). A federal suit, OTOH, would deprive Zimmerman of the protection provided by F.S. 776.032.
I have been.
@Silverfiddle: When a Block-Watcher confronts a suspicious person, he/she has broken Block-Watch rules. They are supposed to observe and call police if warranted. When a Block-Watcher decides to interrogate a person thought to be suspicious, he/she has broken Block-Watch rules.
Any jury will consider the Sanford Police Block-Watch rules agreed to by Block-Watchers.
@DrJohn:
While Reverend Al, the criminals’ pal, has some experience with liability suits, he didn’t appear to pay any price for his recklessness and irresponsibility during the Duke Lacrosse case.
@DrJohn:
When George Zimmerman strapped on a gun and went on an errand, the law protected him. However, when George Zimmerman took on the role of Block-Watcher after seeing Trayvon Martin within condo property, he should have put his gun and holster in his glove compartment and locked it. When in the role of Block-Watcher, Zimmerman was violating Sanford Police Dept. Block-Watch rules, by carrying the gun. The Block-Watch rules will weigh heavily with a jury. A sensible jury will figure if Zimmerman had followed Watch person rules (observe and call police) the incident would have never happened.
The Strategic MC
hi,
I still maintain the one who take on the job of being the eyes and ears of a community neighborhood, need their gun for protection, otherwise they are like standing ducks in a community, in front of those criminals under estimated by the community and police, because the criminals have a keen observation it serve them to do their breackin, and they can notice at first day of the hired watcher, no matter how he want to hide
and be un-notice, and if they have to use their gun to protect their life, they should demand full immunity
and not be arrested even less procecuted, and supported 100 per cent by the COMMUNITY,
OTHER WISE, THE JOB IS NOT WORTH THE IT, AND YOU WILL HAVE TO DO WITHOUT THEM
BECAUSE THEY WONT BE INTERESTED TO DO IT AND THEY WOULD BE RIGHT TOO,
IT WORK TWO WAYS, IF THEY WANT TO GET RID OF CRIMES, SIDE UP WITH THE GUARDIAN,
OR YOU WON’T DESERVE THE SERVICE, THOSE GUARDIANS ARE THE EVERY DAY HERO,
THEY HAVE A GREAT VALUE IN A COMMUNITY, AND THEY MUST BE TREATED AS SO.
THE MORE WE GO, THE LESS HERO ARE, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE ONE WHO GET THE PUNCHS
FOR THE REST OF THE PEOPLE, AND THEY DIE YOUNG
@c. lindy:
No evidence that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation.
I doubt that Zimmerman’s question: “what are you doing around here?” qualifies as an interrogation, as he had been confronted by Martin.
Only if this is considered germane to a determination of criminal conduct.
Hey man, There’s a better map floating around that I think makes more sense. Check it out:
Also here is scene by scene of the entire call.
http://imageshack.us/f/571/zimmermanandtreyvon4.jpg/
If you match it up to the 911 call, you can hear the dispatcher ask Zimmerman where Martin is headed. He assumes towards the back entrance but can’t actually see anything from his position. So he get’s out of his vehicle at 2:15 (your times might be different) and begins his movement around the housing complex. At about 2:30 the dispatcher advises against following Martin, saying “we don’t need you to do that”, and probably realizing that he just asked him which way the suspect was heading, and wouldn’t want him to risk his safety just to get him information. At about 2:40 you can hear Zimmerman dismissively say “he ran” and his breathing normalizes as he rounds the corner and can see down the rear of the housing complexes.
So about 25 seconds all togethor to move about 10-15 meters. And about 10 seconds after being advised “we don’t need you to do that”. Probably wasn’t even running, just a brisk walk. For reference, the driveways in the neighborhood are one car length.
Zimmerman stays on the line for a little over a minute afterwards talking to the dispatch, but then begins to realize that Martin is probably hiding nearby. He begins giving out his home address but cuts himself short saying “oh crap, i dont want to give it all out I don’t know where this kid is”. He initially assumed that Martin was attempting to flee the neighborhood, but now realizes that he is probably hiding and could be laying in ambush.
I would say the altercation occurred almost immediately after Zimmerman hung up the phone. I wouldn’t put too much stock in the reported times in the media, as the police haven’t released an official timeline yet. Some people have suggested that wild swings of 3 or 4 minutes between the 911 calls, but I would bet they were almost one after another. The only thing we know from the police report is the officer was first directed to the scene for a suspicious person, and by the time he arrived he was told there were reported gun shots. That would be about accurate for somebody taking a few minutes to arrive on the scene.
If this is what the police are working with you can see why no charges have been filed. Most of the media chorus is blindly assuming that Zimmerman must have continued to chase Martin after the call, but from the scene it looks more like Martin is waiting in ambush. There is no evidence from the 911 call that Zimmerman was trying to run down Martin, it looks like he is earnestly trying to answer the dispatchers question on where Martin is running to so the police can intercept him when they arrive. We don’t see any more forward movement after he looks down the rear of the complexes and can no longer see Martin.
It should be fun watching these details come out at the Grand Jury, as most of the media outlets have not let anyone question their narrative that Zimmerman chased down Martin. This could come out swinging like a sack of bricks.
Brian
hi,
strange is in it, to find bad people in a paradise like you have,
they are like rats lodging in every cracks, and if you neglect to checks
for even a short time they multiply like vermin,
I REMEMBER A NEWS ABOUT A RANCHER FOUND A GUY ON THE GROUND MOANING,
HE ASK WHAT IS WITH YOU, THE GUY SAID HE HAD BEEN WOUNDED, SO THE OLD RANCHER SAID , I will get someting to help your wounds, he turn his back and fell down shot by the pretend wounded mexican,
having been surprise after he hide a big amount of drugs in the ground further away, they found after discovering the rancher dead,
I don’t mean to scare you, but an extra warning is always keeping us alert,
bye
@ilovebeeswarzone:@ilovebeeswarzone:
I agree, although it is highly probable that Zimmerman was in violation of the Neighborhood Watch rules regarding the carrying of a gun. I qualify what I say because I am unsure if Zimmerman was “on duty” at the time of the incident.
I doubt that any criminal liability accrues to Zimmerman over this, but he’ll lose his position as a volunteer. No doubt, the very least of his current worries.
While Zimmerman’s arguably imprudent possession of a gun resulted in Martin’s death, it inarguably saved Zimmerman from further and possibly serious injury.
@ilovebeeswarzone:
[[[Observe and call police if warranted.]]] If the Condo Assoc. wants armed guards to protect their Community, they will need to hire trained Security Guards. Neighborhood Watch people are not armed Security Guards. They are Observers… almost like undercover detectives who quietly watch activity associated with investigations. Neighborhood watch volunteers do not have the same status as police detectives. You may not agree with rules agreed to by neighborhood watch volunteers, but the program is designed that way. If Trayvon walked up to Zimmerman and punched him in the nose (unprovoked) Trayvon would have been violating civil law (assault & battery) and would have been prosecuted for it. Zimmerman would have had the right to defend himself and fight back. The police were on their way and if Zimmerman had heeded the dispatcher’s statement to cease following the teen, we wouldn’t be here talking about it.
@DrJohn:
Now let’s change it yet again. This time to accurately reflect the events of that night:
Now, the 17 year old, who was doing nothing more than walking down the street minding his own business a few minutes ago, is lying there with his life bleeding out onto the grass and you’re hoping like hell that the police department will believe your story.
You tell the officers your tale but two of them (at least) don’t buy what you’re selling.
They want you charged.
Lucky for you, the local state’s attorney’s office examines the evidence and feels that they don’t have enough for a conviction. They don’t think you’re innocent though. Not at all. They just don’t think they can successfully convict you.
From there, it just spirals out of control. From that fateful moment forward, nothing in your life will ever be the same again.
Even if you’re never charged and convicted criminally, your civil exposure is massive. You’re very likely to lose your house, your cars, your money, and everything else you worked so hard for.
You will be hounded by lawyers and the media for years on end. You will be afraid for your life, and will likely live the remainder of your days with a palpable fear of who might be watching and waiting on you.
You will probably never be able to have a family, children, a job, and live a normal life ever again.
All of that disappeared in a muzzle flash because you decided that getting out of your vehicle to stalk an innocent stranger was a good idea rather than just allowing law enforcement professionals to do their jobs.
Now what?
Now what indeed.
@Jeremy:
Nice summation.
Unfortunately, this has not stopped some from using inaccurate, fact-free and highly charged terms such as “pursued” and “chased down.”