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@retire05: Odd indeed that blacks would find insult in the Stars and Bars, which represents their enslavement, yet will video themselves stomping on the Stars and Stripes, which represents their freedom.

@retire05 #150:

Thanks for the compliment:

“The flag, that most people are under the assumption flies on (not at) the Capitol, was flying at the Confederate War Memorial.”

to my:

“Neither is it lost on anyone that Roof’s mass killings occurred in the same state that had a Confederate Flag hanging conspicuously at it’s state capital.”

“And what importance does any flag have anyway?”

The Confederate “Stars and Bars” has come to be known as a “symbol of hatred” (quoting the mayor of Charleston). The Republican governor of the state understands this, and has the support of Republican Senator (and presidential candidate) Lindsey Graham in her effort to remove the flag from the capital.

The Swastika wasn’t invented by the Nazi’s, but their use of it associated that symbol and the flags it was placed upon with the atrocities of Hitler et. al., and for this reason the Swastika is pretty much a taboo image… except among various groups dedicated to Jew hatred.
I can understand people’s objection to flying the Swastika on public property, I can understand people’s objection to flying the Stars and Bars on public property (as it too has come to be associated with racial hatred), and I can understand people’s objection to flying the BSA flag, or the Rainbow flag, or any other flag on public property that doesn’t represent ALL of the citizens who “own” that property.

Personally, I’m not bothered by the placement of the Stars and Bars at the Confederate War Memorial, and frankly, I don’t give a dam(n) about flags of any sort. But I sure as rain know that plenty of other people DO take them seriously – too many people have died for what those flags represent, and their survivors have strong feelings about them – and I think it is only prudent for the representatives of the people to be sensitive to this issue.

And how refreshing that we also agree on the nature of, as you prefer to call him, “the shooter.”
I think they should they should bolt him to a cell floor and add 100 starving ants to the cell every day until he completes his journey to Hell.

@retire05 #150:

Don’t give up NOW!

San Antonio News 5 reports from a University of Texas/ Texas Tribune poll:

“Texas voters — by a narrow margin — said gay and lesbian couples should be allowed to wed…
And on the related question — whether businesses should be allowed to refuse services to gays and lesbians for religious reasons — the poll found… 41 percent said businesses should be allowed to refuse services, 45 percent said they should be required to provide services.

Looks like you’ve got your work cut out for you right there at home!

@George Wells: 152

I think they should they should bolt him to a cell floor and add 100 starving ants to the cell every day until he completes his journey to Hell.

I think it’s refreshing to know that you are in favor of killing him in a worse fashion than he killed anyone and to judge him guilty before he has a trial. Last time I looked, that’s not the American way. But that’s what this column is about isn’t it? Doing away with the American Way.

@George Wells: No. 1

Obama has absolutely no power to circumvent the constitutionally protected rights of gun owners, and you know it.

LOL, he doesn’t have the power to do many of the things he does, yet he does them. Most of his executive orders are not constitutional.

@Redteam: Too bad you no longer live near Charleston. This self proclaimed racist murderer would love to have you in the jury pool.

@rich wheeler: 11

Less than 4 generations removed from slavery

Rich, how many slaves did you own? How many did your father own? your grandfather? Just what does that have to do with racism? I never owned a slave, no citizen in the US has owned slaves in the US, No one living in the US has been a slave (well except for thousands of sexual slaves throughout the country). So if you don’t know what it is or was to own or be a slave, and no one alive knows what it is or was to be a slave, then why is slavery an issue? No one seems to have a problem about slavery in many countries, but it’s not allowed here and shouldn’t be a consideration for how any person in the US is treated. It has nothing to do with modern civilization in the US. So tell us, who is alive that fought to maintain slavery? Beating racist drums that have been long silent is only a tactic to stir up racism where none exists. You should be better than that.

@George Wells:

The only poll that counts is the one held on election day. In 2005, Texans rejected same-sex marriage by a margin of 3 to 1. Out of 254 counties, only one, Travis County, voted to legalize same-sex marriage.

You may win, but it will only be by judicial fiat, not because you have changed the minds of most Americans. It will be a hollow victory.

@George Wells:

But I sure as rain know that plenty of other people DO take them seriously – too many people have died for what those flags represent, and their survivors have strong feelings about them – and I think it is only prudent for the representatives of the people to be sensitive to this issue.

Would you like to compare the number of blacks who died under the Confederate battle flag to the number of Native Americans who died under the Stars and Stripes? I bet you don’t even have a clue.

Yet, the Stars and Bars fly over the tribal offices on every Native American reservation in the United States. When will you demand that it be removed?

@Redteam #155:
“Most of his executive orders are not constitutional.”

Well, if you AGREE with what he did, keep your mouth shut. And if you DISAGREE, take him to court. THAT’S the American way.

@Redteam #157:

“No one seems to have a problem about slavery in many countries, but it’s not allowed here…”

Maybe you should relocate. I bet those are some FABULOUS countries to live in.

“Beating racist drums that have been long silent is only a tactic to stir up racism where none exists.”

Another great RT joke. Like racism ever did or ever will disappear. Racism is a part of the survival instinct of species that are in competition with each other. You kill what is different from you so that you and your kind prosper.

@retire05 #159:

“Yet, the Stars and Bars fly over the tribal offices on every Native American reservation in the United States. When will you demand that it be removed?”

You might want to look back and see if you can find anywhere that I demanded that ANY flag be removed from ANYWHERE.
Here – let me refresh your memory:

“Personally, I’m not bothered by the placement of the Stars and Bars at the Confederate War Memorial, and frankly, I don’t give a dam(n) about flags of any sort.”

I don’t need a flag or any other “symbol” to direct my allegiance to. I have an understanding of what this country means TO ME, and that is enough.
I don’t need the corroboration of other worshipers to fulfill my faith, as it singlehandedly satisfies my spiritual needs.

But I recognize that other people are not always as secure in their skins as I am, and I have a measure of sympathy for their weakness. I see clearly that symbols mean a lot to some people, enough to encourage some of them to do dastardly deeds. When such events come to the attention of sufficient numbers of VOTERS, politicians take notice. Always mindful of their next trial-by-fire election, they find it necessary to make some official gesture that appears like it MIGHT make a difference. This is what is happening right now, all across the South, as politicians consider what defenses they might employ if they DO NOTHING. It’s just silly politics, but that’s what we get for wanting to elect our “leaders.”
No, I’m not “demanding.”
I’m LAUGHING!

@George Wells:

When such events come to the attention of sufficient numbers of VOTERS, politicians take notice.

And who brought the Confederate battle flag to the forefront of the discussion, George? Certainly not the families of the victims who are voters. Someone started the ruckus, who was it? Come one, show us what you know.

Always mindful of their next trial-by-fire election, they find it necessary to make some official gesture that appears like it MIGHT make a difference. This is what is happening right now, all across the South, as politicians consider what defenses they might employ if they DO NOTHING.

Only because the left is trying to lay this whole brouhaha at the feet of Republicans, and stupid people fall right into lockstep with the farce.

@rich wheeler:20

@George Wells: FYI My lovely wife and I marched in the Gay Pride Parade in L.A. last Sunday–a great event enjoyed by thousands. We march for all-that are oppressed–Mercy For Animals.

There was ole Rich in his Assless chaps kissing ole George’s A&&. Don’t slap them blow flies Rich, they got families too.

@retire05 #163:

“Only because the left is trying to lay this whole brouhaha at the feet of Republicans, and stupid people fall right into lockstep with the farce.”

Ummm, isn’t the political push to remove the Stars and Bars from the SC capital being led by the Republican Governor… and Lindsey Graham? I think the effort is rather bipartisan, don’t you? My guess is that they’ve looked into the matter and found that a BIG majority of voters want them to do exactly what they are doing, else they wouldn’t be doing it. They’re POLITICIANS, remember?

@Redteam We know you’re a proud gay basher–but the way you stand up for the racist murderer Root surprised even me RT.

@George Wells: A Democrat put it up, Republicans take it down… yet the left wing propaganda machine known as “the media” will continue the farce that Republicans are racist and liberals are inclusive.

@Bill: I commend the Conservative leaders of South Carolina for taking down the flag. Democrat Jim Webb of Va.was opposed.–

@rich wheeler:

We know you’re a proud gay basher–but the way you stand up for the racist murderer Root surprised even me RT.

lay off those stupid pills Rich, they might increase your senses a little bit.

@rich wheeler:I believe that flag is still flying.

@Redteam: Not for long. Will you be making a contribution to Webb 2016? I’m sure you’d agree he’d make a better Prez than any of the 16 or more Repub. candidates.

@retire05 #158:

“You may win, but it will only be by judicial fiat, not because you have changed the minds of most Americans. It will be a hollow victory.”

No, not hollow.
If “the minds of most Americans” means a majority, well, we’re there. Americans CONSISTENTLY poll 2 to 1 in favor of gay marriage for all 50 states. The days when electorates voted “NO” on gay marriage are past, like the days of slavery. We won’t be returning to either.

No matter WHAT the SCOTUS does concerning marriage equality, it isn’t the engine pushing this issue forward. The American people are doing that. Perhaps they have finally figured out that this irritating issue won’t go away if they simply ignore it, and calculating that acceptance is the only way to achieve some peace, have opted to reluctantly agree… or perhaps they have been genuinely enlightened by all of the good folks who have witnessed on behalf of gays. I really don’t know… But either way, your stubborn denial and that of the MINORITY of Americans who still oppose same-sex marriage makes the gay rights victory no more hollow than the victories of racial equality are diminished by the few virulent racists who continue to agitate for White supremacy. Nothing is perfect, no consensus unanimous. That doesn’t make the World hollow.
Just you.

@rich wheeler: No, I don’t believe Webb would be the best president. He admits to being a liberal. All libs admit to being on the path to socialism/communism. I won’t voluntarily vote for someone that admits to being on that path.

@George Wells: Then it should be put to a referendum, only without judges coming along behind it and violating the will of the people.

@Bill #174:

“Then it should be put to a referendum, only without judges coming along behind it and violating the will of the people.”

That is SO cute!

First you told us that homosexuals were criminals, to be punished, regardless.

Then you told us that it was OK to be homosexual, so long as we didn’t actually have sex.

Then you told us that we could have sex in private, so long as we didn’t tell anyone about what we did.

Then you told us that it was OK to have sex, but that our relationships were legally meaningless.

Then you told us that there could be SOME sort of legal significance to gay relationships, just not the same as marriage.

Then we were told that in the state of Massachusetts, same-sex marriage could achieve legal significance only through the agency of judicial fiat, and after some considerable difficulty, gay marriages began in Massachusetts.

Then YOU told us that judges SHOULDN’T have a say in this matter, as the judiciary – by supporting equal rights for gays – had proven that it is no longer a legitimate means of deciding ANYTHING. (Thus your “activist judges” charge that always surfaces when a decision goes against you.)

Then, when several legislatures – collections of representatives of the people – voted to overturn laws opposing same-sex marriage, you told us that neither the judiciary NOR the Legislatures have the authority to enact legislation, because – apparently – legislation isn’t enacted by legislatures, it is enacted by referenda.

Then you (finally, belatedly) consented to civil unions ONLY after same-sex marriages became legal in a majority of states.

You’ve been a bit confusing.

Not all that gets passed into law does so through the agency of referenda.

For one thing, constitutionally guaranteed freedoms are not subject to forfeiture at the whim of mob rule.
The Supreme Court of the United States is responsible for seeing that that sort of thing DOESN’T happen.
For another thing, attempting to legislate by purely democratic means is impossible.
We would be voting constantly, and our country would grind to a halt.
Laws would spring into existence one day and disappear the next as the fickle public’s mood swings to and fro.
And as you love to point out, we’re NOT a democracy, we’re a Republic.

Your suggestion that public referendums are the only means of deciding legal matters is patently absurd, and you know it.

Stop your crying like a little girl.

Breaking News. Nine killed in Alaska sightseeing air crash.

Alaska needs to take that Confederate flag down.

@George Wells:

For one thing, constitutionally guaranteed freedoms are not subject to forfeiture at the whim of mob rule.

Tell that to the mob in SC demanding the flag be removed.

@Redteam #177:

“For one thing, constitutionally guaranteed freedoms are not subject to forfeiture at the whim of mob rule.”

“Tell that to the mob in SC demanding the flag be removed.”

I suspect that you are confusing issues.

The PEOPLE in South Carolina – and elsewhere – have a right to express themselves, including the right to demand that a particular flag be removed. Their demand to that effect does not forfeit or encroach upon anyone else’s constitutionally guaranteed rights.
(The Federal Constitution doesn’t guaranteed a state’s right to fly flags.)
YOU have a right to demand whatever you want to demand.
So do I.
So do the people in South Carolina.
You CAN’T make me take down a flag on MY property.
I can’t make YOU take down a flag on YOUR property.
And nobody can MAKE South Carolina take down a flag on SC State property.
What the people CAN do is apply political pressure to the elected officials of that or any other state to do things that they want, and the politicians in question have to decide if the risk of not getting reelected is worth the trouble of not giving the electorate what they want.

You might also consider exactly WHOSE constitutional rights are wrapped up in the display of that flag.
The answer is: nobody’s.
Nobody has a constitutional right to MAKE a state display a flag, and nobody has a constitutional right to MAKE a state take a flag down.
YOU have a right to display things on your own property, up to the point that the things become a public nuisance or an offense to community standards.
Hmmmm…. Maybe that flag might be considered a public nuisance, come to think of it. Just in case, you might not want to spend a lot of money buying a 100- foot-wide Confederate flag to drape over your double-wide…

@George Wells:

Hmmmm…. Maybe that flag might be considered a public nuisance, come to think of it. Just in case, you might not want to spend a lot of money buying a 100- foot-wide Confederate flag to drape over your double-wide…

I don’t think that a flag can become a public nuisance after it flying for 150 years. I think the standard would have been set withing the first 145 or so. Maybe you can measure your double wide and tell me if a 100 footer will cover it.

(The Federal Constitution doesn’t guaranteed a state’s right to fly flags.)

Indirectly it does. If it is not a Federal issue then the right to control it remains with the state. Since in this case, it is NOT a Federal issue then it is guaranteed to be a state right.

What the people CAN do is apply political pressure to the elected officials of that or any other state to do things that they want,

True and historically the electorate in SC has let it be known very clearly that they want the flag to be flown. I don’t suspect that they are enjoying the phonies in the rest of the world trying to tell them they are bad people because they honor their history. I know you live in a southern state, but don’t remember which state you are a native of, but I don’t suspect Virginia is going to be jumping on the bandwagon to take Robert E Lee’s name off of monuments. I think most Virginians hold him in high esteem for being a true patriot.

@Redteam #179:

“If it is not a Federal issue then the right to control it remains with the state. Since in this case, it is NOT a Federal issue then it is guaranteed to be a state right.”

In a simple, perfect world, this statement of yours would be absolutely correct. However, we don’t live in such a world. As YOU have often stressed, one person’s rights inevitably encroach upon another’s. Simply because the Constitution nowhere mentions “marriage” doesn’t mean that states have exclusive say in matrimonial matters. The Supreme Court has found REPEATEDLY that when states use their marriage laws to intrude upon the constitutional rights of equal protection and due process for SOME of their citizens, the matter BECOMES a Federal issue. And the U.S. Constitution’s list and elaboration of federally guaranteed rights is sufficiently broad to effectively place “states’ rights” under the auspices of the Federal Government. States exercise “states’ rights at the pleasure of the Federal Government. Come to think of it, “states’ rights” are becoming the “public nuisance” that you think can’t “evolve” after existing for over 100 years. Look at the past two decades of jurisprudence and see how many court decisions have really strengthened states’ rights. Not many. The notion that voters have the last say in matters of civil rights is simply not born out in reality.

” I don’t suspect Virginia is going to be jumping on the bandwagon to take Robert E Lee’s name off of monuments. I think most Virginians hold him in high esteem for being a true patriot.”

You might be surprised to learn that Robert E. Lee was opposed to flying the “Stars-and-Bars” after the conclusion of the Civil War. He understood what that flag stood for, and that the states supporting its causes had LOST their war. Evidently, he had more common sense than you.

@George Wells:

You might be surprised to learn that Robert E. Lee was opposed to flying the “Stars-and-Bars” after the conclusion of the Civil War. He understood what that flag stood for, and that the states supporting its causes had LOST their war. Evidently, he had more common sense than you.

I’m not surprised to learn it because I’ve known that for a long time.And I agree with it. I’ve never flown the confederate flag either, I’ve always been proud to stand, salute and honor the American flag. I have no problem with others flying the flag on their trucks, or on their property but I’ve never been ‘offended’ by the confederate flag either. I think people should grow up.