Echoes of Sandy Hook

@Bill:

In addition, I see you are a person adept at missing the point. If the majority have NOT gotten past the race relations from 100 or so years ago, many have. And, they have done soDESTPITE attitudes such as yours.

I’m going to hazard a guess here and say you mean “DESPITE”

This is a complete non sequitor. You made a statement, you should stand by it. You claim things are getting better all the time so the thing to do when a racist murders nine people is to do nothing and let it be “simply left alone and to its own devices,”. This is quite the mission statement. Let me reframe your principles for you. You are one who willfully embraces self-interested ignorance. You see what you want to see, ignore what you don’t, and most importantly, you believe what makes you feel good. If it makes you feel better to ignore a racist mass murder because you’ve decided, despite that fact, that there is an “inevitable erosion of racial prejudice” magically transpiring, that’s your move. It is an astonishingly selfish and ignorant philosophy. The fact you actually propose this to others as a moral strategy Do nothing and racism will disappear is simply remarkable.

I would postulate that had the left not made a false, inflammatory call to arms out of the justified killing of Michael Brown, there would not have been any dead cops in New York City and there would have been not killings in the Emanuel A.M.E. Church.

There it is. It only took a day before someone here blamed black people for their own racist murders. These murders have only taught Bill one thing, and that is that he’s the real victim in all of this.

@Skookum:

To politicize this tragedy is cheap gutter politics, and we have already had examples from the top down.

Yep. And it’s a shame the families’ loved ones haven’t even been buried yet. I’d be livid if one of my family members were killed for whatever reason and they were used as pawns by the pundits and agitators. What we need is a quick and speedy trial and a quick and speedy execution for Roof and the next one who comes along after him. And there will be more regardless of what their motive is. In this case it was race. In the next case it may be someone who was told by the devil through their neighbor’s dog to start killing people like Son of Sam.

@another vet:” In this case it was race.” Some here can’t even say that AV–What hope if we have people like that among us?
In S.C the confederate flag flies over the capital and roads are named after confederate generals who fought to preserve slavery .What message does that send to the Black citizenry of South Carolina.To people who look to this shining light on the hill. To Vets like us who fought side by side with our Black brothers. In my mind it’s truly shameful.
Bill appears to blame our Black citizens for the violence in that Charleston church that left nine dead—What? As usual Obama is blamed. Really.
We worry about protecting our citizenry from the Islamic menace from without.
How bout the racist menace from within–it blackens our very souls.

Skooks Thanks and Semper Fi

Okay… at risk of pissing off a few people…

I wonder what the response would be if the shoe was on the other foot. If one of the “New Black Panthers” walked into a synagogue and killed a few people, would the uproar be the same? From the black as well as the white communities? Or would it be the lead story on the local news for one day and then be gone…

@rich wheeler:

The confederate flag flies and roads are named after confederate generals who fought to preserve slavery .

Well, then, that must explain why blacks are killing other blacks in record numbers in places like Baltimore, St. Louis and Chicago. And I’m sure that explains why Sonny Kim, an Asian, lost his life today in Cincinnati because, because…………………….slavery and Confederate Battle flags.

But kill 14 at Fort Hood and the left labels it workplace violence.

@rich wheeler: Who named Ft. Bragg, Ft. Polk (?), Ft. Hood, and Ft. Lee? Those are ALL U.S. Army forts named after generals by the U.S. Guess which side they fought on? I think people are thinking with emotions. And yes, Roof is a racist and there are more out there like him.

@Scott in Oklahoma:

I wonder what the response would be if the shoe was on the other foot. If one of the “New Black Panthers” walked into a synagogue and killed a few people, would the uproar be the same? From the black as well as the white communities?

Do you mean if the Right Wing fantasy version of what starts “the race war” played out? You have a morbid sense of curiousity, Scott. Or am I reading a wistful twinge of disappointment into your entire comment ? As a committed conspiracy theorist, I know you’ve been banking for years on Obama inciting this war in your imagination. But it doesn’t exist in the real world. There is no long history of the New Black Panthers terrorizing white people. But there is a long history of white supremacists murdering black people, even in Churches. It’s downright weird you want to indulge in your fantasy at this moment in time. Maybe you’re a hero in it. But here is what did happen: Ministers, a librarian, a few old ladies murdered by a lone loser. This isn’t the way you saw it playing out, which is a tribute to your selective grasp of American history and contemporary society.

@Tom:

You claim things are getting better all the time so the thing to do when a racist murders nine people is to do nothing and let it be “simply left alone and to its own devices,”

Well, let’s put my premise to the test; what was racial relations like under Bush? Riots? No. Blacks attacking cops? No. Blacks attacking whites? No. Whites attacking blacks? No.

How about now, Tom? What is the status of race relations now? Blacks rioting and destroying their own neighborhoods? Check! Blacks attacking cops? Check! Blacks KILLING cops? Check! Blacks randomly attacking whites? Check!

And with each racial atrocity, do the left wing liberal leaders work to heal wounds and promote calm? Not on your life!! They do whatever they can to make the racial tension higher and, if there happens to BE no racial tension…. they create it.

I know you are too dense to be aware of history, but how about the murders of blacks during the civil rights era? Was THAT due to right-wing rhetoric? Hardly, since it was Republicans that supported civil rights while Democrats opposed it and murdered blacks to get their point across.

That be YOUR legacy, Tom.

There it is. It only took a day before someone here blamed black people for their own racist murders.

Hmmm… this is what you come up with as you blame Republicans for the murder. However, were you to engage your brain (such as it is) and observe the facts, you would see that, indeed, people like Sharpton have been ramping racial tensions up to just this point. Blacks have already been killing whites and, specifically, police due to the left wing mantra of victim mentality. It was inevitable and just a matter of time before something like Charelston happened. No, the mental deficient Roof committed the act; but Sharpton (and rhetoric from people like YOU, Tom) was the inspiration. Nice work, Tom. You should be proud.

@Scott in Oklahoma:

I wonder what the response would be if the shoe was on the other foot. If one of the “New Black Panthers” walked into a synagogue and killed a few people, would the uproar be the same?

You can damn sure bet every gun owner in American wouldn’t be being made complicit. I am pretty sure the NBP would be blamed, as a group; unless they came forth and quickly denounced the violence and the act. However, in this case, a lone, racist lunatic acted and the left is blaming all conservatives and gun owners. Now, I’m pretty sure a link between a Black Panther and the Black Panthers can be established. Where is the link between Roof and ANYONE ELSE? The left is MAKING the link (see Tom) when one does not exist.

Tom, your assumptions are so far off base it is staggering. Your arrogance is only superseded by your ignorance about me, what I believe and how and what I think. You are amazingly, incredibly, blindingly stupid. Who ties you shoes?

I am certainly not trying to “indulge in a fantasy”, I am curious about the response from those choose to spread more lies in an effort widen the racial gap, like you do Tom, at every opportunity. I am curious about those who choose the politicize a tragic event carried out by a lone whack-job in order to expand their own agenda.

Remember a few years ago when those “black churches” were getting torched in the south? Did you know 16 of those arrested for arson were black? Oh… how inconvenient…

@Scott in Oklahoma: “Spread more lies to widen the racial gap.” What lies? Do you feel the response is overboard?
Was this a racist act? Or not?
“That which you ignore most forcefully will control
you the most.”

#61
####Please quantify “an alarming rate” and then produce statistics to support the claim so I can respond to that question.####

Have you ever tried to create links to stories that don’t exist? I haven’t, so I don’t know how long it takes. Patience.

How many times have you heard Christians or Jews wishing death or torture on anybody who disagrees with their religion. How many times have you NOT heard muslims wishing death and torture on anybody who disagrees with their religion?

I challenge ANYBODY to show me ANY VERSE in the koran that says to:
(1) Love others.
(2) Forgive others.

@Scott in Oklahoma:

What no one has said, and what needs to be done, is that tomorrow morning, first thing, people should call their pastors, rabbis and priests and ask them to ask their congregations remember the 9 human beings whose lives were cut short due to no fault of their own.

And tonight, all of us should get on our knees and ask God to heal those families that have lost so much to what is nothing more than evil personified, including the family of Sonny Kim.

@another vet: #75
I should have chosen my words better. What I meant is that when liberals make up stuff, and then someone wants links to the information, it takes time to create links that don’t exist. You know that liberals seldom use facts in their agenda, unless it is from one or more of the propaganda sites that are professionals at making up stuff. They still surprise me sometimes with the stuff that they expect us to believe.

Back before the 2008 election, I recall over-hearing white grocery store shelvers talking among themselves at the local Farm fresh, saying how “If that monkey gets elected”, they were going to get their guns and “fix the problem” themselves.

I have no doubt that the election of the first non-white President of the United States DID stoke some racial animosity among a minority of whites. Gun sales hit record levels. Even though a MAJORITY of Americans voted for Obama, a significant minority of Americans were more than usually disappointed by the election results, and race was the determining factor.

Both Obama’s race and his birthplace became issues of contention – even AFTER the election was settled – and Blacks recognized these efforts as thinly veiled racist attacks. This ginned up the whole race mess, which is never buried deep enough to prevent its reemergence at the slightest provocation.

So, YES, Bill, racial tensions are higher now than they were under Bush. Obama’s presidency is the irritant that has inflamed not-so-latent racism in both Blacks and Whites. But that isn’t Obama’s fault. It would have been the same if Morgan Freeman had been elected.

Retire05 is right that evil exists and $hit happens, but acknowledging the root cause of that evil is the first step in conquering that evil.
Defending racism is not.

@rich wheeler:

“Spread more lies to widen the racial gap.” What lies? Do you feel the response is overboard?

What lies? Gosh, let me think…. OH, how about this one? “Hands Up, Don’t Shoot”? Does that qualify?

When Michael Brown was killed, before any true facts could be discerned, the width and breadth of the left seized upon the “Hands Up, Don’t Shoot” mantra. Even once it was proven to be a false statement, the left continues with it…. because it exemplifies the victim mentality the left wants to instill within all minority communities; then, the left can swoop in and “protect” them. Protect them with perpetual poverty, lack of jobs and high crime.

Michael Brown is the very genesis of these tragic murders and any one that perpetuates those false accusations stands alongside Sharpton, Holder and Obama as those who incite racial tension and violence to solidify their own positions. They do this with no regard for people like Wenjian Liu and Raphael Ramos (gee, I don’t remember Obama calling for more gun control after THEIR deaths) or Tywanza Sanders, Clementa Pinckney, DePayne Middleton Doctor, Sharonda Coleman Singleton, Cynthia Hurd, Susie Jackson, Ethel Lance, Myra Thompson , and Daniel Simmons, nor the countless others who don’t make the headlines and serve the greater purpose of giving he left a tragedy to shamelessly exploit.

I was very concerned that the suspect be taken alive because I wanted to know if there were any others behind it. I have begun to suspect these “swimming pool incidents” are being instigated and coordinated by those who enjoy seeing insolence turned into political capital. Of course, events could spiral out of control and someone could be hurt or killed, but then, CHA-CHING!!, political gold. It does not appear Roof was sent in to create a racial event for political gain, but I did not put it past the left to do just such a thing. Terrible, I know, but this is where we are now and, if you think me terrible for thinking such a thing, just take a look at the shoot-from-the-hip accusations made against conservatives in these events.

You find me some rhetoric from a source other than the left that, including my own, incites people to go kill people. Show me something equivalent to “put wings on pigs”, “What do we want… DEAD COPS”, “Kill white people”. As I said initially, improvements in race relations were moving along nicely; perhaps not as quickly as many would like, but it is apparent racist prejudices are eroding, on their own, due solely to people encountering and understanding other people. Making every incident into a RACIAL incident, making every statement someone makes that criticizes someone that happens to be of another race a RACIST statement creates the incentive and environment to make EVERYTHING racial and, as I also said, don’t expect this to affect only racists of color and to only incite violence upon whites; I will be very surprised to find that Roof was not affected by the ceaseless and violent rhetoric being employed by the left.

The people of South Carolina, Charleston and the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church have the right approach, and I doubt they are all either left or right. Not only should this not be turned into a racial-political circus, it should be a wake-up call to the practice of inciting such tensions over such events. Those who look within and find concern for innocent victims of a political tug-of-war will see my point. Those who do and see nothing but a dark void will keep on keeping on.

@George Wells: FYI My lovely wife and I marched in the Gay Pride Parade in L.A. last Sunday–a great event enjoyed by thousands. We march for all-that are oppressed–Mercy For Animals.

What a crock. What an utter, “F- you, hooray for me”, phony, hypocritical, self-congratulatory crock.

Did you happen to step in and speak up for the Christians demonstrating there that were cursed at, berated and physically abused for THEIR beliefs? Or, are Christians not animals that deserve mercy?

@George Wells:

“If that monkey gets elected”, they were going to get their guns and “fix the problem”

No doubt. What’s more, the way Obama has performed his job has probably given that idiot reason to believe he was exactly right in his assessment. However, how prevalent you believe that attitude to be is generated within your own imagination, unless you have some data to support it.

I have no doubt that the election of the first non-white President of the United States DID stoke some racial animosity among a minority of whites. Gun sales hit record levels.

I don’t meant to put words in your mouth, but are you saying that gun sales have spiked due to a mindset of the person you quote (who may or may not have ever existed)? Before I expand my comment on THAT, I will wait for your clarification.

a significant minority of Americans were more than usually disappointed by the election results, and race was the determining factor.

Indeed. I know of ONE person, a life-long Democrat, that would not vote in either election due to the very mindset you express. I know of NOT A SINGLE Republican that uses such a criteria to base their selection. THEY based their decision on his ambiguous policies and promises (2008) and the disaster he proved to be (2012), not race. The LEFT makes it all about race.

Both Obama’s race and his birthplace became issues of contention – even AFTER the election was settled –

Who first made that an issue? I’ll let you respond to that when you clarify my first question.

So, you admit racial tensions are now higher. When you respond to the first two queries, please provide the incidents that made those tensions higher and then we can discuss the apparent instigators.

@Scott in Oklahoma:

Okay… at risk of pissing off a few people…

I wonder what the response would be if the shoe was on the other foot. If one of the “New Black Panthers” walked into a synagogue and killed a few people, would the uproar be the same? From the black as well as the white communities? Or would it be the lead story on the local news for one day and then be gone

Bingo — it would be reported as “nothing to see here folks – move along” just another day in the ‘hood — after all isn’t it to be expected? — like the media response to all the moo-slime atrocities around the world targeting Christains, Jews, Hindus, anybody that is not moo-slime – then they turn on other moo-slimes — all just reported by the media and absorbed by the dufus people as – “After all , it is to be expected” Or the SOB in the WH “Ft Hood — == workplace violence”

I knew some guys that went to Viet Nam and did not come back due to “workplace violence”.

Wonder if this country will ever get out of the cartoon stage and get it’s collective diaper changed?

That hit list? Has anyone actually been killed?
everyday in New York City over parking spaces, I consider that possibility to have a greater reality of this muslim hit list. Oh here is the manifesto of the right wing terrorist that killed those Americans that he didn’t like. http://gawker.com/here-is-what-appears-to-be-dylann-roofs-racist-manifest-1712767241
Please note the pretty flag he is waving in the link. Should that flag be flown in public spaces?

Tom posts:

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/06/25-years-of-attacks-on-black-churches.html

But it wasn’t a new tactic for violent white supremacists, who’ve been attacking black churches for as long as there have been black churches. In the past 25 years, dozens of black churches have been burnt down, firebombed, or otherwise vandalized by racists. Here’s a list of as many of those attacks we could find.

Let’s take a hard look at facts about the “black” church burnings that both Tom and The New York Magazine want to view simply through the prism of racism, shall we?

First, the Clinton era church burnings:

“Of the 670 incidents that we have investigated, 225 have involved African American churches, 163 of which are located in the southern United States.”

35.5% of the churches burned were “black” churches. And only 1/3rd of the churches burned were in the South, so much for the “Confederate battle flag” reasoning.

“Of the 308 persons arrested, 254 are white, 46 are African American, and eight are Hispanic. One hundred and nineteen people arrested were juveniles. Of the 106 suspects arrested for arsons at African American churches, 68 are white, 37 are African American and one is Hispanic. Of the 197 suspects arrested for arsons at non-African American houses of worship, 181 are white, nine are African American, and seven are Hispanic. Five of the white suspects were arrested for arsons at both African American and non-African American churches.”

Of those arrested, 15% were African-American, a percentage that is greater than their population representation.

But what about their motives? Surely it is due to a high rate of white racism against blacks, right? Wrong.

“C. Hate Group Involvement

Although there have been some cases in which members and former members of hate groups, such as the Ku Klux Klan, have been convicted for arsons at houses of worship, most of the defendants were not found to be members of hate groups.”

The information from this report was provided by the federal Church Arson Task Force and presented to President Bill Clinton by Attorney General Janet Reno in October, 1998. Reno is hardly considered a right-wing radical who would try to minimize any racist component of church arsons.

Included in New York Magazine’s biased report is one black church burned in December, 2010. Such biased reporting is deliberate. The article doesn’t mention the 11 churches that were burned in January and February, 2010, all of them either white churches or churches with multi-racial congregants. And the 16 churches listed in the article, only 9 were actually burned, fewer than the 11 white/multi-racial churches burned to the ground in Jan.-Feb., 2010 in East Texas. The East Texas arsonists were Satinists, not KKKers as Tom would have you believe.

The whole “there is an epidemic of radical white racists burning down black churches” meme is a myth. More white/multi-racial churches have been burned by arsonists of all races and ethnic groups. But fact is not Tom’s friend, so he will continue to promote his own brand of racism, being, I suspect, a protégé of Paris Lewis having attended the Al Sharpton School of Hyperbole.

@retire05:

Let’s take a hard look at facts about the “black” church burnings that both Tom and The New York Magazine want to view simply through the prism of racism, shall we?

As usual, you’re either mentally incapable of having a good faith debate, or simply intentionally being dishonest. I can never really tell. The title of the article I linked to is “Here’s a List of Attacks Against Black Churches in the Past 25 Years”. It is a completely rational set of information to present to Bill to combat his assertion that racial disharmony and violence began with the killing of Michael Brown. There is nothing misleading about the contents of the article – it’s all in the freakin title. So why you bringing in an entirely different data set to argue against the veracity of my post is truly headscratching. Well, except for the fact you do this all the time. You seem to think that yowling “black on black crime” and “black on white crime” are game clinching responses to the subject at hand. Except… we’re talking about something completely different. What does black on black crime have to do with the issue of white supremacist violence? No one has ever said those things you keep braying about never happen. Why on earth you think a completely separate issue somehow ameliorates the terrible murders of these people would be truly puzzling if not for your long history of making silly, dishonest arguments.

@Smorgasbord: I knew what you were saying. I did pull up the FBI Uniform Crime Statistics from 2013 just to get an idea of how much black people need to fear a white person going into one of their churches these days and slaughtering them. Of the 2,491 blacks who were murdered, 189 of them were murdered by whites. No break down was given as to how many of those 189 were killed in churches but I’d lay odds it wasn’t many. I’d also lay odds that the number of blacks slaughtered in churches by whites has substantially decreased since the waning of the Klan. Sorry to say, this will no doubt happen again. No doubt Roof is regarded as a hero by a very small number of people who think like him. If he fries like he should, he will no doubt become a martyr to them as well possibly inspiring even more such heinous acts.

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls

This is not to minimize what happened in Charleston, but rather to show that equating the threat posed by white racists slaughtering blacks in churches to being alarmed by the threat posed by those in this country who support the global jihad, which in 2014 committed 13,463 acts of terror (up 35% from 2013) killing 32,727 people (up 82% from 2013), minimizes the jihad threat especially considering the enormous success the JV team known as ISIS has had, not only on the ground but in recruiting members from Western countries. As their successes mount, so will their numbers and their reach. We need to be on guard against all threats and right now the jihad threat is the largest. If we were talking post CW America and even beyond into the middle of the last century, no doubt the Klan would be the biggest domestic terror threat. But this is 2015.

@retire05:

If you have a problem with my critiquing your “liked” article, a) you should not have made reference to it and b) take it up with Janet Reno and her report generated by the Church Arson Task Force.

Why on Earth would I talk to Janet Reno about arson? The subject at hand is murder and terrorism. I think I’m just about done with you and your unique brand of idiocy. Feel free to continue embarrassing yourself, but I no longer want to be an accomplice.

@Bill #80:

“So, you admit racial tensions are now higher”

Yes, I believe that’s what I said.
Let me check…
Yes, here it is:

“So, YES, Bill, racial tensions are higher now than they were under Bush.”

Say it a few more times if agreeing with me makes you feel good.

George@90… In a typical liberal effort to twist someone’s words, you quoted only half of my sentence. Here is what I actually wrote, just in case you are too stupid to see an whole sentence:
“Everyone I know, without exception, that opposes Obama couldn’t care less about his race; it is his dishonesty, his arrogance, his agenda and many other things that cause that dislike, distrust and opposition.”

In the future, should you decide to quote me, I would suggest you make the quote accurate, instead of trying to twist my words to fit your agenda.

@George #94… Your assumptions prove your ignorance, and your bigotry.

Ahhh yes, just what we need. Another liberal bigot spewing lies and deceit.

JisterJ, go back under the rock you came from.