It’s ironic how events pry open the door to the truth.
A few days ago Barack Obama said it was a “local matter.”
” Our thoughts and prayers go out to Trayvon Martin’s family, but obviously we’re not going to wade into a local law enforcement matter,” Carney said. “I would refer you to the Justice Department and to local law enforcement at this point.”
Sensing the media tsunami building, Barack Obama decided to hang ten:
“If I had a son he would have looked like Treyvon,” Obama said shortly, addressing the victim’s parents. “I think they are right to expect that all of us as Americans are going to take this with the seriousness that this deserves and that we’re going to get to the bottom of exactly what happened.”
Earlier this month a 13 year old white boy was attacked and set on fire by several black youths.
KANSAS CITY, Mo. — A 13-year-old Kansas City boy is back home after two teenagers poured gasoline on him and lit him on fire.
It happened Tuesday at the teen’s home on Quincy Avenue, just down the street from Kansas City’s East High School. The boy lives less than two blocks away from the school and was walking home when the attack happened.
Melissa Coon said her son turned from the school’s stadium onto Quincy Avenue and noticed two teenagers following him. She said the teens followed her son home and attacked him outside his front door.
“And they rushed him on the porch as he tried to get the door open,” she said. “(One of them) poured the gasoline, then flicked the Bic, and said, ‘This is what you deserve. You get what you deserve, white boy’.”
Barack Obama had nothing to say about that attack.
What happened to Trayvon Martin is a terrible thing and exactly what happened needs to be investigated and justice must follow. But one has to presume that the white boy in Kansas City did not look enough like Barack Obama for the President to weigh in on that atrocity. Or do certain kinds of crimes matter more to Obama than do others? A pattern is emerging. When Henry Gates was arrested Obama declared that the white cop “acted stupidly” without the benefit of any facts. Obama’s Attorney General refers to “my people” instead of “us.” A certain Black Panther voter intimidation conviction is mysteriously dropped. Obama said this incident needs “soul searching” but the Kansas City attack apparently does not.
Someone can explain it to me. I find this disgraceful.
DrJohn has been a health care professional for more than 30 years. In addition to clinical practice he has done extensive research and has published widely with over 70 original articles and abstracts in the peer-reviewed literature. DrJohn is well known in his field and has lectured on every continent except for Antarctica. He has been married to the same wonderful lady for over 30 years and has three kids- two sons, both of whom are attorneys and one daughter on her way into the field of education.
DrJohn was brought up with the concept that one can do well if one is prepared to work hard but nothing in life is guaranteed.
Except for liberals being foolish.
@ Mata: “Tsgt Ciz, I’m quite sure that if Martin were alive today, he’d likely be asking the same questions. Since when was it an illegal act to be returning to where you were staying on a visit, without being followed/pursued/confronted?”
There is no such right any where I know of in the world, to be in a neighborhood you don’t live in and not be asked who you are and why you are there. There isn’t even the hint of such a privilege. And that is despite your continued attempts to put Tray into one of the houses, an irrelevant fact that has not been proved or even supported.
“That freedom goes both ways. And my guess that were you in Martin’s shoes, you may have a different view of Zimmerman’s actions. As far as patrolling the community, as I have linked here.. or some other of the ga’zillion threads on this.. that the Twin Lakes Retreat neighborhood watch was not only not recognized by the National Sheriff’s Assocation, but that the founder of that watch group (as well as the NSA) do not sanction any patrolling while armed.”
No one said he was patrolling (except perhaps you). George was returning home from an errand.
The crux of your argument seems to follow one of the following torturous paths:
a) A person is not allowed to ask a stranger in their gated community why they are there. If you do and they attack you, you were the aggressor and deserved it.
b) A person lawfully carrying a concealed weapon is not doubly not allowed to do a) above. You simply have no rights if you are armed. If someone attacks you, you are to let them beat you unconscious and then take your gun and shoot you with it.
c) If you see someone in your neighborhood that you don’t know, acting suspiciously, your only lawful recourse is to hide under your bed and hope they don’t kill anyone important. For Gods sake, don’t try to follow them. And if you do, for Lawyers sake, don’t be armed even legally. And if attacked, well you asked for it.
You should know me better than that. It is not only “supported”, it is extremely relevant because he had every right to be in that neighborhood. Since you apparently need proof, here’s where I get my impressions….
Now you say “No one said he was patrolling (except perhaps you). George was returning home from an errand”.
Really?
And here’s a twofer for ya… both issues addressed in one paragraph from another Miami Herald article.
So much for it just being me, TSgt Ciz. So what you got for those saying he was returning home from an errand?
@TSgt Ciz:
Wait. What did you say?
You’re claiming that if I choose to walk my dog in the neighborhood across town from my house (which I do frequently) I don’t have the right to not be stopped and asked “who I am and why [I] am there”?
Really?
You’re way wrong on that one.
Unless I am trespassing on private property or engaged in some illegal activity while I am in the neighborhood it’s no one’s business at all who I am or why I’m there.
Aye, he was trying to dismiss my knowledge of Assault law in Kansas and along with that the other States due to my time as a Private Instructor in Martial Arts and how it can happen under situations.
@me: #1
The propaganda media uses the kind of picture they feel will represent better what they want to say. How many decent pictures of republicans can you find compared to democrats. They have been doing this for years.
@john fleming: While I agree with you on this, I think that socio-economic factors and the overwhelming absence of two parent families in poor communities have much more to do with youth crime, delinquency, truancy, etc…
Well, I am going to wade into this discussion and give my thoughts on this.
This incident has affected the lives of two families forevermore. The young man, Martin and the older man, Zimmerman and their families will never be the same.
As it stands, I leave it in the hands of the local police department and with the national spotlight shining upon them, I am confident that they are doing everything in their power to come to a fair, just conclusion as to the events of that night.
It isn’t up to us, the media or those political pundits and racebaiters to decide who was wrong. Zimmerman isn’t automatically in the wrong because Martin was a black youth; nor is Martin automatically wrong for the same reason. No matter what, race should play no part in this investigation. Now if it comes to light that Zimmerman’s decisions that night were prompted by race, then it will be a setback for race relations in our country. How large of a setback, we do not know, but a setback none-the-less.
I couldn’t really say what I believe about this because I do not know all the facts. Only those close to the investigation know that and only after they close their investigation will the public be privy to those facts.
Okay, down off my soapbox now. Just wanted to throw my two cents in.
@retire05:
You seem to be correct.
Yet Treyver had those Skittles and the Tea.
So, at 1/2 time in the game Treyver takes off to go on a 4 mile round-trip walk just to get a snack?
Am I nuts for asking why he and his daddy hadn’t gotten some eats for that game BEFORE it started?
This might be the weirdest part of the various stories out there.
But time will tell.
There might be weirder stuff to come.
@MataHarley:
I agree that the dispatcher told him to stop. And stop Zimmerman did when he responded “OK” to the dispatcher. At that time he had not caught Martin. So we still don’t know how Martin, who was running away from Zimmerman came to be on top of Zimmerman, beating him.
@Aye:
Why did I ask for Kansas law, and not Florida law? Was it not obvious to you that Mr. Irons was discussing his experience in Kansas and not Florida? Are you trying to tell me that ALL state laws on assualt are the same?
Just because someone gets in your face, and says insulting things to you, it does not justify your use of physical force against them. If you think it does, try it and let us know how it works out. You, not the person trying to initiate a shouting match will be the one to go to jail.
I hadn’t heard about the Kansas City incident. Thanks a lot. I’ll research it.
DrJohn
the youngster was 6 feet 2 and 140 pound, it doesn’t look on his picture and yes he could have out run ZIMMERMAN, no doubt about it.
@retire05:
Oh, it was plenty obvious that Mr. Irons was discussing his first hand knowledge of Kansas law.
It was also plenty obvious that you asked Mr. Irons to quote Kansas law and then…in yet another display of your charmless personality and amateurish debate style…you immediately dismissed Kansas law as “moot” even though you specifically asked for the source citation. You did that because the answer was not to your liking.
Of course, then Mr. Irons quoted Florida law and, yes, it was remarkably similar to Kansas law. You didn’t have much to say on that once your uninformed opinion got smacked down using yet another set of state statutes.
That’s sort of like when you ran yourself out to the end of your keyboard by saying that “There is NO 7-11 in the vacinity of Twin Lakes” which would be right except, of course, for the one that is .8 miles away on Rinehart Road.
Geez, you really should have stopped while you were ahead.
Are you next going to be using a fabrication to convince us, the unsuspecting audience, that the sidewalk/pedestrian path depicted in the GoogleEarth photos is actually a fence? Oh…wait.
That’s one hell of a fence…perhaps it should be labeled “The Great Wall of Sanford”. In reality, it’s nothing more than a sidewalk.
You really aren’t very good at this whole analysis and debate thing are you?
Perhaps macrame would be a better fit.
@Liberal1 (objectivity): Here ya go
http://www.themoralliberal.com/2012/03/07/was-boy-in-k-c-fire-attack-burned-by-his-schools-racist-teaching/
It’s brutal.
@Nan G:
Nan, here is what we know and what we don’t know:
According to the Sanford PD, Zimmerman was on his way to run a personal errand when he saw an unknown man wandering the streets of Zimmerman’s private, gated community. At that point, Zimmerman called 911 which was assigned to the Sanford PD. He continued to follow Martin in his SUV, and when asked if he was following Martin, he said yes and the dispatcher told Zimmerman he did not need to do that. Telling Zimmerman that he did not have to follow Martin was not a direct order NOT to follow Martin, only that the PD did not require him to do that. We also know that race was not a factor when Zimmerman started following Martin as the dispatcher had asked him the race of the person he was following and Zimmerman said he did not know.
At some point, Zimmerman lost visual contact with Martin and has started to return to his SUV to meet the police officer that had been dispatched to the scene (according to the City of Sanford press release). A witness has said that they saw the two men in a scuffle, and that Zimmerman was on the bottom with the man on top beating him. No one saw the men at the time of the shot.
We also know that Martin’s father has changed his story. He claimed his son left during half-time to make a trip to 7-11. We also know that when the boy did not return home, Mr. Martin did not call the police until the next morning, trying (a) to find out if his son had been arrested (why would that be any parent’s first though after your kid has been missing all night?) and then to issue a missing persons report at which point (according to reports) Mr. Martin was informed there was someone at the morgue who fit his son’s description. We do NOT know where Mr. Martin’s girl friend lives so that we can put her home in the vacinity of the incident. Was Treyvon Martin taking a direct route from the nearest 7-11 to her home? We don’t know. And when Treyvon did not return, why did his father not go out looking for him? What parent doesn’t bother to find out what happened to their son who has been missing after a reasonable expectation for their return? Did he not call Treyvon’s cell phone and if he did, when he got no answer, why did he not then call the police? Why did Mr. Martin wait until the next morning?
Now, some are assigning fault to George Zimmerman because he was following Martin. The courts have ruled that you have no reasonable expectation to privacy in a public area, which a street is. Neighbors have said that George Zimmerman was dedicated to patrolling their streets, and had in fact, thwarted a break in before this event. It has been reported that Zimmerman called the PD over 40 times, but an article in Ricochet, who contacted the Sanford PD, said that those calls had been over 11 years, not one year, and that it was a typo (from 2001 t0 2012, not from 2011 to 2012). Three-four calls a year from any Neighborhood Watch program is not out of the norm. No publication has bothered to make the call time frame correction.
We also know after listening to the audio of a man yelling “Help, help”, Mr. Martin said the voice was not his son’s, yet later, after lawyering up, told the PD he was not sure if it was his son or not.
And here is more of what we do know: we know that Mr. Martin allowed his 17 year old son to take off for a convenience store in a town where Treyvon did not live and was not familiar with his surrounding, after dark. One could think it reasonable that if your minor kid was not familiar with an area of a town where they did not live, you would a) allow them to drive to the store or b) drive them yourself. I don’t know many parents that would allow their kid to just roam around a town on foot the kid was unfamiliar with. We do know that when Treyvon did not return back to where his father was, his father did not call the PD until the next day. What’s up with that?
We know that George Zimmerman had the legal right to a concealed weapon, having a permit to carry. He has the right to carry anywhere that is not posted as a “gun free” zone. Now, some want to make a big deal out of the fact that the Twin Lakes Neighborhood Watch program is not approved by the American Sheriff’s Association. I do not find a problem with that. My own Neighborhood Watch program is does not have ASA approval. Since we are an incorporated city, all training is provided by the city PD, not the county Sheriff’s department which has no jurisdiction inside the city limits. Our Sheriff’s department does have a Posse that you can join for “search and rescue” purposes, or if you live in an unincorporated part of the county, you can join the Sheriff’s County Watch program which requires weeks of training.
Some here have tried to claim that assault and battery laws are basically the same in all states. They are not. According to findlaw.com, the laws in my state are as follows:
“Prosecutors must prove one of the following:
The defendant intentionally, knowingly or recklessly caused bodily injury to the victim:
The defendant intentionally or knowingly threatened the victim with imminent bodily injury; or
The defendant intentionally or knowingly caused physical contact with the victim when the defendant know or should have reasonably believed that the victim would regard the contact as offensive or provacative.”
According to other legal sites, verbal assault is not grounds for physical retaliation.
Florida Assault laws are quite clear, and following someone is not considered assault:
Title XLVI Crimes
Chapter 784
ASSAULT; BATTERY; CULPABLE NEGLIGENCE
784:011 Assault
(1) An “assault” is an intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence to the person of a another, coupled with an apparent ability to do so, and doing some act which creates a well-founded fear in such other person that such violence is imminent.
(2) Whoever commits an assault shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s.775.082 or s.775.083.
The simple act of following someone is not an act of assault. If Treyvon felt threatened by Zimmerman, he should have called 911 and reported that he was being followed by someone he did not know. Those are safety precautions that every parent teaches their children, and we know that Treyvon Martin had a cell phone because he called a girl friend who recently said she told him to run when he told her he was being followed.
We also know that this event happened on February 26, and did not make national news until Al Sharpton decided to get involved in it. We also know that this incident is being blown up by the race baiters and the media as a case of a [first reported] white guy killing a black kid. Later, when Zimmerman’s picture was released, and it was clear that he is Hispanic in origin, the media labeled him a “white” Hispanic, the only time I have ever read that description but required to eliminate the aspect of Hispanic on Black crime which draws little attention.
I do not know what happened in Sanford, Florida. I do not know if Martin jumped Zimmerman from behind and the scuffle ensued and Zimmerman acted in self defense or if Martin tried to take Zimmerman’s hand gun from him and went off accidently. But no one else knows either, and to claim that it was Zimmerman’s fault, or that the Sanford PD did not do their jobs properly is simply an opinion of side liners who were not there and are not involved in the investigation.
@Aye:
Aye, when you have to resort to ad hominem attacks because you don’t like what someone says, you are already on the losing end of the debate. Now, perhaps you are just defending your widdle friend, but I am sure that the people here are adult enough to defend themselves.
I suggest you garner ALL the facts before you go off half cocked. Having publishing rights on a little known blog doesn’t make you ten feet tall and covered in fur.
@retire05:
Great advice. Considering you’re the one flying short on facts, you should take yourself up on it.
I figured you’d at least attempt to try and address the reality that you’ve been trying to convince us of non-existent fences while conveniently ignoring a very real 7-11 location which is less than a mile away. Of course, that would be unwieldy and cumbersome for you now that you’ve been exposed.
The facts don’t fit what you’re peddling and, as I said earlier, I have no patience for the perpetually stoopid.
@retire05 – Very nice summary. I agree completely.
@Aye – What can I say. You are wrong in several ways. The property is not public, it is a gated private property community. Even setting that aside, any person has the right to confront a stranger in their neighborhood. the stranger may not like it and he he has a number of rights against search or detention. But he has no immunity from people asking who he is and why he’s there. And the *intruder certainly doesn’t get a free pass to open a can of whoop ass on someone for simply following them and watching their activities. (*to sprinkle inflammatory in the way the word Aggressor has been used).
@TSgt Ciz:
Well, you’ve moved to reframing your original premise already, eh?
You originally stated:
Now, you’ve moved to reframe the discussion to limit it to a “gated private property community”.
Nice attempt, but even with this reframing you’ve still shown no legal basis to support your opinion.
Really? Show me where you get the right to question the presence of someone walking down a public street within a neighborhood.
Show me.
Last I checked America was not the kind of place that allowed people with self-assumed authority to say “Pah-pers please” to people going about their routine daily business.
Mata, and consequently Aye, working from what Mata said, claims there is a 7-11 on Reinhart Road just 0.8 miles from the Twin Lakes area.
According to the 7-11 website, there are six 7-11s located in, or near Sanford. They are as follows and using mapquest the distance from 1111 Retreat View Circle, the addess of the Club House:
2700 W. 25th St., 2.44 miles
2939 S. Orlando Dr. , 5.19 miles
7500 County Road 427, 6.54 miles
100 N. French Ave., 5.15 miles
4076 Orlando Dr., 6.22 miles
4085 W. State Rd. 46, 1.98 miles
There is NO 7-11 on Reinhart Road in Sanford according to the 7-11 websitestore locator.
Now, let assume that Treyvon Martin went to the nearest 7-11, which would have been at 4085 W. State Road. He would have to have crossed the Seminole Expressway (Hwy 417) in order to get there and his round trip would have been almost 4 miles.
@Aye:
Show us the law that says you have a reasonable right to privacy in a public area.
@retire05:
Still perpetually stoopid, eh?
7-ELEVEN store #34198, 1125 Rinehart Road.
From the 7-ELEVEN web site:
@retire05:
Your point. Your onus.
Show me the law/ordinance/statute that allows an ordinary citizen to question, challenge, or interrogate another ordinary citizen as they go about routine, legal activities.
I won’t do anymore of your homework for you.
Leaving for a few hours now so you’ll have plenty of time to work on this. Hope you have better luck finding that law/ordinance/statute than you did in locating that great, big 7-ELEVEN store.
oh fer heavens sake. Apparently some are unaware of Google Earth’s scary, but handy, features.
Picture of 1125 Rinehart Rd, Sanford via “street view”. My my.. .what is that building with the 7-11 logo in that strip mall? You know, the one that says “7-11”?
End of story. Want to try and convince us there are 4-5 feet wide fences in the neighborhood now?
@Aye – Wow, I have never thought you to be weak on intelligence until this very moment.
Your assertion is that you are only allowed to do those things that are expressly permitted by “law/ordnance/statue”?
Well then Aye, show me the “law/ordnance/statue” that expressly permits you to make such an inquiry of me. Or maybe I’ll pull a Tray on you and knock you to the ground and pummel hell out of you.
That is, after all, exactly the logic you are offering.
drj, I think your memory is slipping, guy. I’ve linked the full, unedited 911 call in Comment #107. I even put the starting time of the dispatcher, asking Zimmerman if he was following Martin…. 2’24”
Please point out to me where Zimmerman agreed to not continue following Martin? After the dispatcher’s quick and firm “we don’t need you to do that”… followed by a pause and the dispatcher saying “kay?”. No response from Zimmerman… continued walking sounds and silence. Then the dispatcher asks for Zimmerman’s name.
drj, he never agrees not to follow. Simply not there.
@Aye:
Alright, I stand corrected and admit that I was wrong. But that trait seems to be personal as you and Mata do not seem to possess the ability to admit when you are wrong. Mapquest shows that particular 7-11 to be 0.78 miles from 1111 Retreat View Circle.
But the fact remains that you have no reasonable expectation of privacy when on a public street or in any public area. If so, then video cameras located on public throughfares or on public parking lots would be considered an invasion of privacy. Constitutional privacy rights are quite specific; limited to your person and your papers, your house and your effects and cannot be violated without a warrent. Does a public parking lot have the warrents required to film you in your vehicle? No. There is no mention of the right to privacy in a public area in the U.S. Constitition.
So yes, if you are unknown to me, or my neighbors, and you are wandering around in my neighborhood after dark, I have the right to approach you, as you where you are going and (to be polite) ask you if I can help you find the place you are looking for. I do not have the right to touch you, to threaten you with harm or to take any physical action against you. Making an inquiry about why an unknown person is in your neighborhood is NOT illegal or even a form of intimidation, any more than asking a stranger for directions is illegal or a form of intimidation. If you think it is, provide the statute that specifically deals with that.
And the only one who looks “stoopid” is you who seems to want to get into a pissing contest but to the rest of us just looks like a guy trying to hold his own (you know what) in his hand.
Now that many have slid off tangent from the specific case, the basics are this:
1: The original police report by the first responding officer labels the incident “Homicide-neglig mansl-unnecessary killing to prevent an unlawful act”.
2: The Sanford prosecutors told the police that they didn’t have enough evidence to prosecute on manslaughter.
3: The Sanford police virtually sign off on an investigation circa Mar 12th, citing the Stand Your Ground law
4: Zimmerman’s own attorney, yesterday, says the Stand Your Ground law does *not* apply in the case, and will be building his case on ordinary self defense.
That has been my simple argument this entire time… that the SYG law doesn’t apply in this case because of Zimmerman’s choice to follow/chase/pursue/confront Martin. Apparently Zimmerman’s lawyer agrees.
And that suits me just fine. I want this case as far away from that law as possible so that it can’t be used as a political football for federal intervention in the 31 states that have some form of this law for those defending themselves.
However it also leaves the Sanford police in a tough spot since it was that law the cited in order to not pursue justice in the case, and simply let Zimmerman walk without further scrutiny.
Thanks for one thing Aye. This photo you posted is particularly instructive
It really makes one wonder, just why was Tray so far from the road between the homes on a private access walk way?
And please, don’t repeat the false claim that he, his father, or his father girlfriend lived there. They certainly did not.
There is no way that the father was sitting in one of those homes waiting for his sons return from the store at half time in a game, heard a gun shot, all the police cars and ambulance, his son still doesn’t show for a whole day or more (I’ve read up to two days) only to find out that he died within a stones throw!?! Yeah, no sale on that FL Alpine Ski resort.
Anyone can look at the complex Tray was shot in and clearly see, is is not a short cut to or from anywhere. That 7-11 you found, certainly is not going to incite being in the complex Tray died in unless that was his final destination.
So since you and Mata have been so determined to justify Tray being in that private community innocently. then you must have the address of where Tray was staying with his father. Right? How else can you both be so convicted that innocent Tray was just walking ‘home’ with his Tea and Skittles, unless you know exactly where ‘home’ is. Especially now that you’ve provided his shopping destination.
And you base this on what inside knowledge, TSgt Ciz? Happy to look at your links, should you be able to provide them. In the meantime, I’ve provided ample to the contrary, including the confirmation from the Martin family’s attorney herself. I’m quite sure that they would be addressing that his presence in that neighborhood was warranted for the courts.
I think you miss the more important point, TSgt Ciz. Why was Zimmerman so far from his car and the road after being instructed by the dispatcher not to follow?
BTW… I’m hearing lots of lip service about this “on an errand” bit. But I’m sure missing the source links to document that. Police report doesn’t address that either. So how about some hot links where the cyber mouth is? Second request…. I provided mine. What have you got?
But I’ll tell you why Zimmerman may attempt to make that claim after the fact… because on pg 20 of the Nat’l Sheriff’s Association Neighborhood Watch Handbook, it clearly states that neighborhood patrols are not to be armed, and they are not to pursue or confront suspicious individuals. Obviously Zimmerman was in violation of both those guidelines. But then, the Twin Lakes Retreat “neighborhood watch” was unknown, and unrecognized to the NSA’s neighborhood watch program.
I’ve also said this was a simple self defense case. Big deal.
The lawyer may simply be choosing not to use it as the defense because he doesn’t feel the need to do so.
The police decision to drop the case on the SYG law is irrelevant to the defense. The police will stop at their first insurmountable hurdle, but the defense will form around the most insurmountable point, such as when a more established and immutable law is applicable.
This may be a stupid question, but since the deceased is found inside a gated community, how did he get in?
The Google Earth street view of the Oregon Ave entry shows a sidewalk entry with an iron gate. Most gated communities either have a keypad entry code, or a card swipe entry. Then again, depending upon what time the sentry gets off and closes that entrance for the night, they may have still be on duty. Never saw any info if, or when, that gate closes for the night and the guard goes home.
If there was a guard on duty, and he saw Martin leave, he’s not likely to stop him re entering on the return.
CORRECTION: No guard shack at that back entry. Just a center structure for entry keypad or card swipe. So no guard to check. Also no guard shack at the other entry either. Same deal.
@Georg Felis:
A better question is : what kind of parent allows their teenager who is unfamiliar with the town that teenager finds himself in, to go to a store almost a mile away and when the teenager does not come back in a reasonable amount of time, doesn’t call the police until the next morning?
has anyone seen a more current photo of Trayvon?
i have one but cant figure out how to post it here
i have it on my computer, not on a website
if thats needed i can load it to my photobucket
DiveCon
yes that would be more of a now picture, so far we where led to believe MARTIN TO BE A SHORT YOUNGER
10 TO 12 YEAR OLD WITH THOSE PICTURES, and it was confusing to believe that ZIMMERMAN WAS ON THE GROUND BEING BEATEN BY THE YOUNG PROFILE, WHICH I found to be 17 teen and 6/ 2 high
and 140 pound making a complete change of picture the event which now what I think happen is more on the reality than the first presentation of MARTIN.
BYE
Mata,
Good catch on the closer 7-Eleven.
Now, what kind of dad doesn’t even call his son OR the police when his minor child goes out for a short errand after dark but never returns?
Records have been reported on that say the phone of the son was not called by his dad after he left the house.
Records show the dad never called police until the next day.
Then he was told that there was a body in the morgue that fit his description of his son.
More things are going to be coming out in the future.
Nan G, that isn’t how the events went down according to the Tracy Martin interview with People Magazine. According to that, he tried calling his son’s cell phone several times that night, but thought he might be with his 20 yr old cousin. When he didn’t return home that night, he got a hold of the cousin the next morning. At that point, he says he contacted the PD, but also stated that the usual 24 hours missing before reporting period hadn’t passed. Then there was an exchange of photos, and Martin ID’d his son’s morgue photos.
Now the confusing part is the ABC story saying that the body was in the morgue, unidentified for three days. I’m not sure what ABC based that on, but here’s the original ABC article, that also notes Sanford PD made what some consider obvious errors in investigating that night.
Heaven knows that reporting these days is deplorable, but sometimes it’s all we’ve got to go on until we see official affidavits, depositions text and court briefs/rulings. But in order for Martin to have been a “john doe” for three days, we would have to assume that the Sanford PD… who had Martin’s cell phone… didn’t bother to attempt to contact anyone at all. While I may think they dropped the ball on using SYG as a reason to dismiss the case, I can’t imagine they are so incompetent as to ignore the cell phone contacts as a method of identification. What policy is for that… i.e. a waiting period… I don’t know. Certainly making a random phone call to someone, and telling them that phone owner is dead without knowing the relationship, may have some limitations. Dunno. But it’s not like it’s a dead end for identifying Martin.
It’s my understanding that the phone records have been subpoenaed because of the phone call to Martin’s female friend that has been in the news, and it being the last contact prior to his death.
In the meantime, I’m just happy that this isn’t going to be some sort of litmus test on the SYG laws, tho I can’t imagine the lib/progs won’t continue to spin it like it is.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v686/DiveCon/mediabias-trayvon.jpg
btw, notice that Zimmerman doesnt look quite as “pale” as he did in the other photos?
DiveCon
this is A PICTURE OF TRAYVON MARTIN IS IN IT
YOU MENTIONNED ZIMMERMANN
Retire05, your concept of Assault is very flawed in this case of Zimmerman. He ignored a direct Police request not to pursue Martin, and confronted the kid either verbally or physically. We do not know the exchange of words between the two, but we do know for a fact that Zimmerman was told to stand down and leave Martin alone and the altercation ended in violence between the two. If Zimmerman backed off, he might not be facing court time and Martin would be alive.
Under Florida Assault Laws, Zimmerman could and should be charged with Assault even if he had to defend himself from a physical fight, he still hounded down and chased Martin when Police told him to back off.
Neighborhood Watches are intended to help alert Police to crimes in ACTION, not badger police with gut feelings of people in the Neighborhood one never seen before. They are to watch and report to Police if something goes bad, not confront supposed, “Suspects.” To do so could make the Watchman the actual criminal, especially if the supposed suspect is simply walking though the area.
Mr. Irons
am I wrong to say that ZIMMERMAN proceed to go to his car after the 911 as he agree to do,
HE did not disobey the direct police request, and as he walk his back was turn on the other big guy,
that is what we’re assuming when MARTIN WENT AFTER HIM, REMEMBER ZIMMERMAN TELLING THE POLICE HE HAD LOST HIM, IT ANSWER AND PROVE IT ABOVE,
AND THE SURE ASSAULT AND I ASSUMED THE STRUGGLE FOR THE GUN,
AS ZIMMERMAN END UP ON THE GROUND BEING BEATEN AND BLEEDING, YELLING HELP, AND MARTIN STILL ON TOP, WHEN THE OTHER CALL 911, AND AFTER THE CALL HE LOOK TO SEE ZIMMERMAN ON TOP
Yes, Bees. You are wrong that Zimmerman agreed to go back to his car. He does *not* agree to do so in the 911 call, and continues his walking, not answering the dispatcher.
DiveCon
thank you for the photo, I just wanted to clear the name ZIMERMAN you mentioned
bye
MATA
MAYBE AFTER THE CALL SINCE HE LOST HIM, HE PROCEED TO TURN BACK BUT AS HE TURN HIS BACK HE DID NOT HAVE TIME TO DO TO MANY STEPS, BECAUSE THE BIG GUY CAME TO ATTACK HIM AT THE SPOT YOU MENTIONED
BYE
IT SEEM TO ME HE GAVE A ANSWER TO THE ONE ON THE PHONE AS TO HE WAS GOING BACK TO HIS CAR, BUT i LOST THE PLACE WHERE I READ IT,so I cannot argue on it
Bees, the 911 unedited call is up in my comment #107. Dispatcher interjects “we do not need you to do that…. kay?” Long pause, Zimmerman doesn’t answer, and continues walking/moving. Then dispatcher asks for Zimmerman’s name. Exchange starts at 2’24” in the video.
@MataHarley:
Well, it seems that Mr. Tracy Martin, Treyvon’s father, has changed the story somewhat.
According to a FoxOrlando Feb. 27th interview, Tracy Martin’s girlfriend, Brandy Green said: “He [Treyvon] walked out of the house to go to the store. He doesn’t know anybody here. He just came down here, he ws so bored, so he walked down to the store. He was on his way back home. I’m living down here. He was sitting on the porch and this man killed him.
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation
Now we are being told [in Parade] that Tracy Martin was not even home when his son went missing since he had gone out to dinner and just thought his son was with a cousin, and maybe went to the movies, or something, since they [Treyvon and cousin] had discussed it. If that is the case, why did Brandy Green say that Treyvon didn’t know anyone there and just went to the store? And when your 17 year old son is not home by at least midnight, you don’t start looking for them until the next day? What kind of parent does that?
MATA
thank you I’ll check back, not that I doubt you ,
just to see where I got that impression.
bye
Dr.John opined:
“It seems that Obama only cares about those who look like him.”
Not true.
Only if it is politically advantageous to do so.
Obama has not weighed in on the cold-blooded murders of Natasha Plummer, 25, her 6-month-old son, Carlton Stringer Jr., and Octavia Barnett, 21…. all three are blacks in Florida.
Their murderer is also a black person, Lineten Belizaire.
Although the police thought they had a pretty good case against him he was not indicted by a Grand Jury.
So, he was freed.
Well, he is behind bars again, this time for having an illegal gun in his car and overly-tinted windows.
BTW, if a 13-year-old photo of Trayvon Martin looks to Obama like the son he never had, this guy, Lineten Belizaire, looks like Obama’s son at 21.
Photo here:
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/23/2710523/out-of-jail-triple-murder-suspect.html#storylink=cpy
MATA
I didn’t see that video before, yes he was still on target while talking,
he was probably close to the place where he was assault ? or a bit further
after he ended the phone call, on his way to his SUV
MATA
DID THE OFFICER ON THE CALL NEW HE WAS TALKING TO A PERSON SPECIFILY HIRED TO DO CHECK IN THE COMMUNITY, THAT COULD BE WHY HE TOLD HIM , WE DONT NEED YOU TO DO THAT,
BYE
Bees, neighborhood watch patrol are community volunteers, not hired gun slingers. Also via the Nat’l Sheriff’s Association handbook on neighborhood watch organizations, it is stressed that those patrolling should not be armed, and not chasing suspicious characters. Their task is to alert the police, and stay out of the way. Altho their “neighborhood watch” organization is not one recognized by the NSA. THat said, when they organized it, the woman who did the initial organizing stated that armed patrols is not acceptable.
This may be the reason for attempting to stress this as “an errand” and not a “patrol”. But we have no evidence one way or another what Zimmerman was doing, except what he claims. If he was running an errand, he chose to do so packing, as he was licensed to do. If he was on a patrol, he shouldn’t have been carrying. And under neither circumstance should he have been following or approaching Martin – without any probable cause or otherwise – since he was never in imminent danger himself.
There’s more in that link above as well. Brandy Green (Tracy Martin’s girlfriend/fiancee) was a renter in the complex. The time of the 911 call from Zimmerman was 7:11pm (Oddly enough, the incoming call to Trayvor by his girl friend was 7:12pm). The kids in the complex who played football with Martin when he visited, etc etc.
@ilovebeeswarzone: sorry for the delay, the photo has both of them
Zimmermans mother is Peruvian, so the pale face photo of him that everyone keeps using is deceptive
you can see he is not “white” in that photo
Black friend of George Zimmerman defends Zimmerman:
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2012/03/25/us/25reuters-usa-florida-shooting-friend.html?_r=3&hp
And can anyone tell me when the media started dividing Hispanics into groups like “white” Hispanic? The next time a dark skinned Hispanic is involved in a crime, will the left wing media then report them as a “black” Hispanic?
@retire05:
Well, I’ll tell you what…as soon as you can prove me wrong about something, let me know. Until then stop trying to convince the unsuspecting that sidewalks are actually fences and that a 7-ELEVEN doesn’t really exist when clearly, and unequivocally, does.
Which is precisely what Mata and I have been saying since the issue arose although we did round the distance up to .8 miles. Glad you finally caught up with the rest of us.
Quite a leap in logic you’re making there, eh? Jumping from public thoroughfares and video cameras installed by governmental authorities to a private citizen confronting another private citizen as they go through the normal course of everyday life is very acrobatic. Very acrobatic indeed.
What’s inconvenient for you is that the “reasonable expectation of privacy” is a standard that is applied where police or some other governmental authority is involved. Katz v. United States 389 U.S. 347, 88 S.CT.507 (1967) and the two-pronged test it establishes is an example of applicable case law.
@TSgt Ciz:
@retire05:
I really do hope that one day one of you approaches me…and questions my presence on public property…as I walk my dog or undertake some other mundane legal task…like going to or from a convenience store. Yes, I really do hope that one day you confront me, or someone like me, because it seems that a face full of GFY would do both of you some good.
Now, as I have requested of you already, kindly cite the law/statute/ordinance that allows you, a private citizen, to confront/question/interrogate another private citizen while on public property during the course of daily life.
From this point forward, I will interpret any lack of clarity or specificity, or a failure to respond at all, as evidence that you CANNOT successfully respond.
MATA
THANK YOU, that is super good to know, but this citizen owe his life to his gun,
and he was a brave men to decide to be on watch for his community, when that community is known to have so many break in crimes, I would be surprise if MR ZIMMERMAN is given trouble for killing one which assault him for no reason except he was watch by someone else, WHOEVER IT might be, a mother or a father, or a young student having been harass in school, yes I would be surprise if that problem COMMUNITY CAN FIND ANOTHER TO BECOME A COMMUNITY WATCHER WITHOUT A GUN,
AT POINT BLANK DISTANCE OF CRIMINALS, STILL FREE TO STEEL AND INTIMIDATE, THE GOOD PEOPLE, AND I HOPE HIS ACTION WILL SERVE TO GIVE A MESSAGE TO THE CRIMINALS,
THAT WHEN PEOPLE HAVE ENOUGH, THEY WILL PUNISH THEM.
bye
DiveCon
thank you for explaining,,
SORRY I was confuse for expecting the big picture to be of MARTIN,
AND YES I thought he look like ZIMMERMAN MUCH,
I’m slow sometimes,
BYE