It’s ironic how events pry open the door to the truth.
A few days ago Barack Obama said it was a “local matter.”
” Our thoughts and prayers go out to Trayvon Martin’s family, but obviously we’re not going to wade into a local law enforcement matter,” Carney said. “I would refer you to the Justice Department and to local law enforcement at this point.”
Sensing the media tsunami building, Barack Obama decided to hang ten:
“If I had a son he would have looked like Treyvon,” Obama said shortly, addressing the victim’s parents. “I think they are right to expect that all of us as Americans are going to take this with the seriousness that this deserves and that we’re going to get to the bottom of exactly what happened.”
Earlier this month a 13 year old white boy was attacked and set on fire by several black youths.
KANSAS CITY, Mo. — A 13-year-old Kansas City boy is back home after two teenagers poured gasoline on him and lit him on fire.
It happened Tuesday at the teen’s home on Quincy Avenue, just down the street from Kansas City’s East High School. The boy lives less than two blocks away from the school and was walking home when the attack happened.
Melissa Coon said her son turned from the school’s stadium onto Quincy Avenue and noticed two teenagers following him. She said the teens followed her son home and attacked him outside his front door.
“And they rushed him on the porch as he tried to get the door open,” she said. “(One of them) poured the gasoline, then flicked the Bic, and said, ‘This is what you deserve. You get what you deserve, white boy’.”
Barack Obama had nothing to say about that attack.
What happened to Trayvon Martin is a terrible thing and exactly what happened needs to be investigated and justice must follow. But one has to presume that the white boy in Kansas City did not look enough like Barack Obama for the President to weigh in on that atrocity. Or do certain kinds of crimes matter more to Obama than do others? A pattern is emerging. When Henry Gates was arrested Obama declared that the white cop “acted stupidly” without the benefit of any facts. Obama’s Attorney General refers to “my people” instead of “us.” A certain Black Panther voter intimidation conviction is mysteriously dropped. Obama said this incident needs “soul searching” but the Kansas City attack apparently does not.
Someone can explain it to me. I find this disgraceful.
DrJohn has been a health care professional for more than 30 years. In addition to clinical practice he has done extensive research and has published widely with over 70 original articles and abstracts in the peer-reviewed literature. DrJohn is well known in his field and has lectured on every continent except for Antarctica. He has been married to the same wonderful lady for over 30 years and has three kids- two sons, both of whom are attorneys and one daughter on her way into the field of education.
DrJohn was brought up with the concept that one can do well if one is prepared to work hard but nothing in life is guaranteed.
Except for liberals being foolish.
Why does everyone keep using this picture?? This is a picture of the kid when he was 10 years old. WTF??
Notice the attack on young Mr. Allen Coon took place in February, Black History Month.
Here’s what his mom said happened to him in class when he raised his hand to answer a question from his teacher during Black History Month:
“What would you know about it?” Mrs. Karla Dorsey his teacher asked. “You’re not our race.”
A teacher Mrs. Coon identifies as Ms. Carla Kinder called Allen “Casper” and then “got all the students to get involved.”
Coon’s son is not alone. Other white students also report a pattern of racial harassment at the high school at the hands of their peers – and, shockingly, their teachers.
More about that here:
http://www.themoralliberal.com/2012/03/07/was-boy-in-k-c-fire-attack-burned-by-his-schools-racist-teaching/
Have the perps been caught yet?
This was one of the most infuriating and insulting remarks ever go come out of his mouth. it implies that his empathy is based on the color of the victims skin. Now we know where Eric Holder gets his marchimg orders from. Someone should point out to Obama, that if he had a son, he would also resemble the 95% of the shooters and muggers in the city of D.C. near my house.
You find everything associated with Obama disgraceful, so that in and of itself is meaningless. As to “explaining” it to you, he was asked a direct question about Trayvon in a press conference and responded. This is a big story and it would be difficult for him to avoid commenting on. I assume you can document the instances where he was asked directly in a press conference setting about the 13 year old white boy who was attacked and refused to comment?
@me: Yes and I saw several articles as late as the 23rd with headlines that included the phrase “black teen fatally shot by white — ”
It was also my first impression when I saw the photo — 12-13 yr old at most —
@Michel: Probably 90% of all the shooters and muggers in the country
This is what happens when you get the race pimps and f@@@ing hot heads involved.
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012
We need more carry permits and “Stand Your Ground” Laws not fewer. It was a nice fairy tale or race baiting story while it lasted, but now we can see the ugly, ugly racism of the president, our Liberals and among Conservatives.
Now prepare for the riots that will materialize over a lie.
Sound travels slower than light, thus you can see an idiot coming before he opens his mouth. Where were the teleprompters? opie has always been a racist, the rest of the world is only finding out at a grave expense. Be careful-martial law is in the wings. Maybe the hood did have some contribution to the issue. When people do not respect us we are sharply offended; yet deep down in his private heart no man much respects himself.
@Skook:
I guess we better all arm ourselves then, and bar the doors and windows. Shoot first, ask questions later.
How’s the success rate on these Apocalyptic predictions anyway? I remember one was Obama was going to start a race war. Did that happen? What about the one about the airline industry going out of business because of the TSA? Did that happen? Being wrong 100% of the time doesn’t seem to be a disincentive I suppose as you’re still at it.
So… this is the kid that Oblamer say looks like could be his son…?
Hmm, ya know Mr Present, I think you might be right.
PS I apologize for the offensive language in the picture, but that was put there by “Obama’s could-be son”.
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/211621.php
Don’t know why some can’t see the difference. The Sanford PD refused to press charges, citing the Stand Your Ground law and assuming Zimmerman’s story of self-defense was unquestionably true. Ergo, justice ground to a halt until the uproar.
In the case of the Kansas City tragedy, the police are still actively seeking the perps.
So the reason candidates, media, POTUS etal aren’t weighing in is not because of the tragedy of a death, but because of the tragedy of justice deliberately ignored. The Sanford so called “investigation” needs to be reexamined because of glaring inconsistencies with Zimmerman’s pursuit of Martin, and the Stand Your Ground text itself.
@Tom:
That’s EXACTLY what Jackson, Sharpton and the Black Panthers are doing right now.
@MataHarley: Mata, Zimmerman claims he was attacked as he was returning to his car and there is allegedly an eyewitness who corroborates Zimmerman. Zimmerman also reportedly had injuries and grass stains on his back. I think it would be wise to wait for all the facts, but way too many are wanting Zimmerman killed now.
@Tom: Tom we better bar the doors and get our guns loaded. The racist attitude of our failed President along with his army of racists to include Sharpton, Farakkhan, and the Rev Jackson are already energized and spitting hate on the waves. It’s time for the Crackers to unite against this assault!!
@Tom: “I would refer you to the Justice Department and to local law enforcement at this point.”
THANK YOU ALL FOR THE LINK
IT HELP TO MAKE THE STORY MORE LOGICAL.
I’m wondering how come the OBAMA ADMINISTRATION WITH ALL THEIR AGENCY DID NEVER LOOK INTO THE BLACK TEACHERS INCITING BLACK TO HATE THE MINORITY WHITE KIDS, even after parents had their kids beat up and torture and insulted and lit one on fire, how come THE GANGS OF BLACKS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD HAVE NOT BEEN DEALT FOR BY OBAMA TO GET THEM TO STOP INTIMIDATING THE WHITES , and those parents
complain to the school authority, that school and there more school it was told WHERE EVEN WORSE OF, THEY should have been closed at the first crime committed, and the authority teachers and all arrested at once, don’t those crimes get not report to OBAMA? TO COME OUT PUBLICLY AND EXPOSE THE CRIME FROM THE BLACK ,SAME AS he would for THE WHITES; IT’S GOVERNMENT RESPONSIBILITY TO CHECK IT, THEY ARE PAYING THEM WITH THE CITIZEN’S
MONEY, IS THERE A FAVORITISM GIVEN TO THE BLACKS BECAUSE
OF OBAMA BEING PRESIDENT? RESULTING IN THE TEACHER TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THIS PROTECTION, ON TOP OF THE PROTECTION FROM THEIR UNIONS,
@DrJohn:
And I don’t agree with that. So your point is two wrongs make a right?
this could be rodney king all over again. Looting, burning and beating. Maybe they can burn sharpton’s house or jessie jackson’s house. brown’s house a dem. senator in ohio is up for burning. as you recall, he was the deciding vote in opie-care. he met with opie on a-f #1 and had a private meeting with opie and SUPRISE, he voted for opie-care. Smile America, martial law is in the wings. This is just an excuse.
Another detail that shakes the Lefts narrative of the event:
“The death weapon was a Kel-Tec PF9 semiautomatic 9mm pistol. It has been reported that the gun was recovered with a full magazine and that only the chambered round had been fired. This is a condition we associate with something preventing the gun from cycling a fresh round from the magazine into the chamber after the shot was discharged. One thing that can cause that is another man’s hand wrapped around the pistol, retarding its slide mechanism. ”
http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2012/03/23/george-zimmerman-and-trayvon-martin-what-we-dont-know/
Matta,
You know I love you, but, I think it is a bit too far to go to say that justice had ground to a halt until the media uproar. It is at least equally possible, if not more likely, that justice had actually been done and is now being undone by media trumping of a event that the left wants to exploit for their own political advantage.
Why else do they post pictures of the dead man from when he was in Middle School instead of the gang banger pictures from his own Facebook page? Why else do the refer to the shooter as a *white non practicing Catholic, despite his being Hispanic and Jewish mix? Why else do the fail to mention that the shooter had been physically assaulted and was calling for help while the dead man was on top of him beating him – and that there is a eye witness who called 911 to report just that at the moment the shot was fired?
I think the odds are that this is more likely to be another Duke Lacrosse crucifixion, than a case of justice rescued from the dust bins.
If the media really wants to help bring some justice to a racially motivated crime, there is the case of the poor kid who was set on fire for the affront of being white.
But that isn’t the motive at all. The motive is plainly an attempt to go after gun ownership and to give the Libs some inflammatory talking points. Nothing more. justice be damned.
@DrJohn:
You’re so desperate for this to be Martin’s fault. That will allow you to reconcile your wordview with this event, so you can stop thinking about it. Of course the world is too messy to make that kind of simple sense. Regardless of what you’ve written above, that doesn’t change the fact that the confrontation would have never happened if Zimmerman hadn’t targeted Martin from the start. The race component in this case is much more subtle than you want to acknowledge. It isn’t race baiting to ask whether Zimmerman followed Martin because he was black. that’s a legitimate question to many black parents because, statistically speaking, your life expectancy is dramatically decreased if you’re a black male. You’re much more likely to spend time in jail if you’re a black male. People have a right to question whether this is just an aggregation of genetics and individual acts adding up to statistical trends, or whether there are institutional components as well. I don’t think that George Zimmerman had to be racist for race to play a part in his actions that night. That’s the subtle part people insist on missing. They want to paint this in broad strokes: if you say race played a part, you’re saying he’s a racist. No, that’s not the point. I saw a black youth on the bus the other day reading the Economist – am i racist if I did a double-take? Stephen Colbert has a great ongoing bit where he insists he doesn’t see race. He’s poking gentle fun at this notion that if you acknowledge race, you are a racist or the race-baiter. No, race is an unavoidable component of living in a multicultural nation. Ignoring it, or insiting that bringing it up is race-baiting is just putting one’s head in the sand.
If you are at all curious about what I wrote above, I recommend you read this article on mass incarceration in the US. This is one of the really important issues of our times that is never talked about.
Read more http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/atlarge/2012/01/30/120130crat_atlarge_gopnik#ixzz1q49jh2mo
@MataHarley: Mata, I think we’re going to discover that the “Stand your ground” law had nothing to do with what happened.
@Tom: I have been doing nothing but saying to wait for the facts. Nothing you have posted has anything to do with this case.
People who commit crimes are in prison. They’re not simply dropped in there. FYI.
@DrJohn, I think that’s the point of the uproar. Zimmerman’s only defense, and why charges weren’t filed is the “stand your ground” situation. And in fact, had Martin killed Zimmerman, were he the aggressor at is seems to appear, that same law would have protected Martin from charges.
And I don’t agree with all the bruhaha racial crap that’s arising from this, and pushed by the professional race muckrakers, Sharpton and Jackson. But I agree that the chief is in error when he decided not to press charges and concluded his investigations.
TSgt Ciz, I do not believe it is out of the realm of a citizen’s rights to ask for a higher authority to oversee what may be a shoddy and incomplete investigation. And from what I can see, and the reasons given for them no pressing charges, I don’t think they did a very thorough investigation. It is most certainly worth revisiting by a 3rd party, perhaps less involved/biased agency.
Below, cross posted from another thread, as to why I find the entire “stand your ground” unquestionable defense anything BUT unquestionable.
INRE Zimmerman’s “attacked at car” story, here’s the pieced together facts from the police report where the body was found, where the car/first phone call was made, etc. Cross posted from the other thread.
If you look at a map of the complex one can see why there’s a lot more questions than answers for Zimmerman’s “self defense” claim. I have a map, but experiencing FA server photo upload snafus at the moment. So if you’re curious, here’s the three sites that are pertinent.
ADDED photo of sites:
1950 Retreat View Circle – Zimmerman’s home. He gave the house situs address, but not the street. However there are only three roads in the complex, and only Retreat View Circle has that situs number.
1111 Retreat View Circle – the clubhouse address which Zimmerman gave to the 911 dispatcher. For Zimmerman to have a view of the clubhouse, he’d have to go due north from his house and around the east bend for that view. The entry gate Zimmerman mentions is beyond the clubhouse and to the north.
1231 Twin Trees Lane and 2821 Retreat View Circle – the grassy area/pedestrian pathway between the houses where Martin’s body was found.
Here’s the “facts”, assuming Zimmerman is telling the truth.
1: He called, first noting that Martin was around the clubhouse area. Martin was on public grounds/roads, not on private property. Ergo no suspicious illegal activity or trespassing. While on the phone, he told the dispatcher he was following Martin. They told him not to, but he did not obey.
From the huffing/puffing sounds on the 911 call, he was likely on foot… which bears out with Zimmerman’s statements in #2 below.
There is NO “Stand your ground” self-defense here, and in fact this makes Zimmerman, thus far, the aggressor
2: His “stand your ground self-defense” hinges on him, “returning to his car” – presumably still parked where he could see the clubhouse – after “losing sight” of Martin’s whereabouts, and supposedly being attacked by Martin. Only if this is factual does it stand the test of “stand your ground”.
Now we have to accept that behavior patterns have changed. That Martin, who was running away, decided to turn around and confront Zimmerman instead. Let’s assume that to be true for debate purposes.
3: Now we go to where Martin’s body was found, in the grassy walk trails between 1231 Twin Trees Land and 2821 Retreat View Circle (police report), which is over a block away from the club house – the area from which Zimmerman first called. When you look at the map, you can see there is no way for a car to get there. The two had to have gotten there on foot… one chasing another.
For Zimmerman’s “self-defense” to stay valid, the altercation at his car would then have to result in Zimmerman, now scared and running away from Martin to the place where Martin died.
Let’s see… Martin’s behavior and situation to this point. Running away from Zimmerman, who pursued him on foot. Martin, armed only with iced tea and a bag of Skittles, 6’2″ and 140lb.
Zimmerman’s behavior to this point? Armed with a 9mm in his waistband, and already the aggressor by pursuing Martin. Weighs approx 250lb and 5’9″ tall.
Now, all of the sudden both flip their initial behavior… Martin attacks and Zimmerman runs away to the grassy area?
Nope… doesn’t add up. The witnesses say nothing about any attack at the car, only the scuffle in the grassy area between the homes. How did they get there and who chased whom?
Zimmerman’s injuries? If he pursued Martin to the grassy area and they fought, it’s quite easy to assume that he would have grass stains and some injuries in that battle. Martin’s body was found face down, his hands tucked underneath his body.
However how is it they got that far away from the car where supposedly Zimmerman says he was attacked… except for us to believe that now Zimmerman was running from Martin in fear of his life, when he’s got a gun tucked in his waistband. That his only “stand your ground” defense… that he tried to flee the car fight and Martin chased him.
If they did fight at the car, and Martin ran away to the grassy area, chased by Zimmerman, then Zimmerman’s Stand your Ground defense goes away via the parameters of the law.
Because of Zimmerman’s demonstrated aggression, plus the advantages of weight and being armed, it’s a real leap to assume that his attitude and behavior flipped 180 degrees… fearing for his life against the unarmed kid he was chasing, and running away to the grassy area.
BTW… the nearest convenience store from the complex is on Rinehart Rd, out of the complex to the north, west down Oregon Ave and South on Rinehart. Various reports had said Martin was there visiting his father’s girlfriend who lived in the complex. This would explain Martin’s presence in the gated neighborhood, since it’s not a “short cut” to any other neighborhood.
However, as I said above, even if Martin was a gang member, casing the complex for a robbery, he was not doing anything illegal when Zimmerman confronted him, as he says he did.
MATA
IT’S GOOD THAT ZIMMERMAN HAD A WITNESS TO SEE HIM ON THE GROUND AND CALL 911,
WHEN ZIMMERMAN ASK FOR HELP ,HE WAS BLEEDING TOO, AND THE FACT THE LAW OFFICER CONCLUDE OF HIS INNOCENCE TOO AND THE FACT THAT ZIMMERMAN WAS A CIVILIAN NAME FOR
NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH, PROVE HE WAS DOING HIS JOBS, AND MARTIN WAS KNOWN TO BE A TROUBLE SEEKING KID ALONG THE OTHER OF HIS GROUP, THE FACT OF THE TEACHER INCITING FOR HATE
AND TELLING THE WHITE KID, YOUR NOT LIKE US, TELL MORE OF THE BEHIND THE SCENE CRIME SEEKING YOUNG KIDS INTIMIDATING THE WHOLE WHITE COMMUNITY WITH THEIR NUMBERS AND ACTIVITY,
THIS KILL WAS TO HAPPEN ANY TIME AND MIGHT HAVE BEEN DONE BY A MOTHER OR FATHER
OR A YOUNG WHITE KID AT THE END OF HIS ROPE, IS IN IT WHY THEY ASK FOR ONE TO BE A
COMMUNITY WATCH DELEGATE. HE WAS DOING HIS JOB. AND WAS AGRESS AND DEFEND HIMSELF
Where was the immigrant-in-chief in February when a black man shot (several times in the face, even after he was down) and killed an unarmed hispanic in cold blood over a dog poop dispute?!
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Man-Killed-Over-Dog-Dispute-Cops–139318818.html
Remember when the 12 Mohammad cartoons were first published in Denmark and Egypt?
No, you don’t.
No?
No.
Why not?
Because when those were published nothing happened!
THREE MONTHS went by and still nothing happened.
They were published in 2 Egyptian and other Middle Eastern publications yet NOTHING HAPPENED.
Then an iman decided to kick it up a notch.
He either created or found three more cartoons none of which had anything to do with Denmark, the original newspaper, Jyllands-Posten, or its artists.
Scan down to the 1/2-way point on this page to see the fake cartoons.
No wonder there were riots and deaths.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Trayvon Martin died over a month ago.
It has taken a good deal of revisionism to get us to where a bounty is on the head of Mr. Zimmerman.
Notice all you see are photos of Trayvon Martin from his middle school era?
When the truth comes out justice will be done.
I only hope we don’t have to step over more dead bodies to get there.
@MataHarley: You don’t think Martin could outrun Zimmerman?
@MataHarley:
I don’t believe he said he was attacked at the car. I believe he claimed that he was returning to his car, having given up the pursuit when he was told to stand down by the cops.
http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/crime/2012/03/21/bts-zimmerman-911-debate.sanford-police-dept-wkmg#/video/crime/2012/03/21/bts-zimmerman-911-debate.sanford-police-dept-wkmg
Let’s ignore the only eye witness and the evidence.
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2012/03/24/Witness-Martin-attacked-Zimmerman
Let’s ignore the fact that The New Black Panthers have put a price on Zimmerman’s head; oh yes, I’d like to see how fast Holder’s Racist joke of an Injustice Department would swing into action if the situation was reversed.
Our President has to put in his two cents worth like he did when he crapped in his trousers in front of the world in the Skippy Gates Debacle. Well maybe he can have a beer summit with the Black Panthers and Zimmerman, once this has been allowed to run its course and the race pimps and sea lawyers are made to look ignorant once again.
Two eyewitness reports have come forward pointing out that Martin assaulted Zimmerman, not the other way around, with Martin sitting ontop of a prone Zimmerman attacking him with Zimmerman screaming for help. This isn’t building up to be a solid case for Liberals everywhere trying to paint Zimmerman as a paranoid racist, but the thing must be asked: Did Zimmerman provoke Martin in to attacking? That’s where the Police should really be anchoring down their investigation.
Well, it seems Spike Lee, maker of lousy movies, has now Tweeted Mr. Zimmerman’s home address. Considering that Louis Farrakhan has made threats that there will be violence, the Sanford PD now has the responsibility of providing security for Zimmerman.
Also, let’s get one thing clear: the dispatcher did NOT tell Zimmerman to stop following Martin. When asked if he was following Martin, Zimmerman said “yes” and the dispatcher said “You don’t have to do that.” That is NOT an order, it was a suggestion that following Martin was not necessary. And to claim that Zimmerman targeted Martin because he was black, then why did Martin tell the dispatcher, when asked what race the “suspect” was, Zimmerman said he could not tell and could only see that the suspect was wearing a hoodie and white shoes?
God, people, listen to the 911 tapes before you jump the shark.
@Mr. Irons:
Perhaps you could give us the legal defination of “provoke” that justifies assaulting the person that is “provoking” you?
I could follow you from your house to the moon, calling you every name in the book, and it is not legal justification for you to physically assault me.
MR. Irons
yes even if he would have said maybe answering the boy’s call, bring it on, even if living in that same community he offer to be on watch to protect, he surely knew of a month before event
burning a white boy, he surely knew of those gang hurting the white boys and girls, he was aware of what the young blacks where out to no good and no one where stopping them, so he did watch the boy because knowing all the BEFORE,
HE COULD SENSE THE BOY WAS OUT TO NO GOOD, IT’S NOT JUST ONE GUY TARGETING A BOY HE DIDN’T KNOW BEFORE, VERY FAR FROM IT. AND HE WAS ATTACK, DID HE KNOW IF THE BOY HAD A KNIFE? NO, DID THE BOY TOLD HIM HE WAS UNARMED WHEN HE ATTACK HIM FROM BEHIND AS IT LOOK? NO, SO HE PROTECTED HIS LIFE IN PERIL, AND SHOOT AFTER HE WAS BEING INFLICTED WOUNDS, NOT BEFORE.
@Tom: You offer up statistics and that is all well and good. But do you look to studies that try to show why black youths see more trouble and become incarcerated more than white youths?
Matta,
You really seem to me to be tying yourself into knots on this in order to avoid the most simplistic and likely scenario. Zimmerman was the captain of the neighborhood watch, which was formed due to high break in rates. Martin was not know to Zimmerman and was acting suspiciously, looking into ground floor apartments as he walked. Zimmerman called the police because of this. . Martin noticed Zimmerman and approached him A fight ensued. Zimmerman was on the losing end or deliberately not being the dominate figure in the physical confrontation Zimmerman sustained injuries and called for help. This was witnessed by neighbors. The gun was brought into the conflict and discharged and Martin died of the single round discharged. When the gun was fired it was physically prevented from cycling and loading the next round indicating the extremely high probability that it was fired point blank and while being fought over. As in, Martin, while winning the fight dislodges the gun and tries to take if from Zimmerman. ~or~ Zimmerman tried to threaten Martin so as to stop the beating. Either way the evidence is, they struggled for the gun… (as evidenced by the single shot fired still in the chamber and the failure of the next round to be automatically chambered. Someone’s hands or body blocked the cycling of the weapon)
Stopping right there.
In what instance does any rational person relinquish the weapon to Martin, who has already initiated violence and exploited it to his advantage? From the moment the physical fight began, the SYG law exited the event as the law at issue. EVERONE AT ALL TIMES has a right to defend themselves from physical violence. And once the struggle was for possession of the gun, only the person willing to die is going to not do everything they can to win.
Now I grant that this may not be how it actually happened. But in kind, you must certainly grant that it is just as likely as any other series of events. The professionals on the ground at the center with all the evidence, have considered the evidence and determined Zimmerman not to have committed a criminal act. That decision was surely reviewed by several layers of Law Enforcement professionals
Just when did we decide that we can’t trust them as much as we can trust a hyper liberal media with an axe to grind?
I must-a been sick that day.
Mata, perhaps you can give us the minute point where Zimmerman says that Martin is running away?
Now, if Zimmerman, who claims he was on a person errand, saw someone unknown to him at the Club House, and that person was just wandering around, it stands to reason that Zimmerman, at that point, put his personal errand on hold and started following Martin. He also told the dispatcher he has lost Martin, and was returning to his vehicle.
How do you explain the grass stains on the back of Zimmerman’s shirt if he was not, as the witness claims, on the bottom of a confrontation? How do you explain Zimmerman’s broken nose, and the cut on the back of his head?
Now, you said that Martin was going to visit his father’s girl friend who lives in the gated complex. I have not read that before, as Martin’s father said his son had left the father’s home during half-time to get some Skiddles at the 7-11. There is NO 7-11 in the vacinity of Twin Lakes. Even if the father said “7-11” as a generic term for a convenience store, Martin was nowhere near the nearest convenience store to Twin Lakes (mapquest is very informative).
Another thing: there was only one shot fired. In the case of fear, when adrenalin is pumping, most shooters fire more than one shot. Were Zimmerman and Martin scuffling over the gun and caused it to fire? Was Martin trying to take the gun away from Zimmerman?
Another point: when Zimmerman was on foot, following Martin, he was clearly breathing hard. When he was walking back to his vehicle, talking to the dispatcher, was was not. That tells me he had abandoned his pursuit of Martin.
No one disputes there was a scuffle, retire05. And by all accounts, that scuffle occurred in the location where Martin was shot, between homes on a pedestrian trail. Ergo, Zimmerman was no longer in his car, and followed Martin, and thereby was the aggressor, which renders the Stand your Ground legal defense moot.
BTW, I have not read that Zimmerman was doing errands, but was on patrol. Don’t know that it’s an event that matters. And of course, Zimmerman was on foot. How else would the two eventually get to the grassy area, between homes, where Martin was shot? What this does prove, once more, is that Zimmerman was the aggressor, pursuing Martin, and not staying in his car.
I provided the link to the article about Martin’s father’s fiance above. Read it several places, actually. But since Martin was from Miami, not Sanford, it explains why he was in a gated neighborhood that doesn’t provide a short cut to anywhere.
Yes, there is a 7-11 that is out the north gate entry, to the west on Oregon Ave, and left/south on Rinehart Rd. Address is 1125 Rinehart Rd, Sanford, and it is .8 miles away (from the clubhouse), courtesy of the wonders of various mapping sites, like Bing.
While I don’t know for sure, I would think that Zimmerman never intended for this to be the result. However, I can’t see anyway that this did not happen without his escalation by pursuit. And I don’t see that was in his authority under that law. When he spotted Martin – doing nothing illegal – he was not in imminent danger. Nor did he have any rights as a citizen to pursue him for doing nothing illegal. However he most certainly invited confrontation with his own actions.
Oh goody, the flames are finally being damped down by reasoned discussion and patient investigation… http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/os-trayvon-martin-new-black-panthers-protest-20120324,0,1231157.story
“Now, how in the world could these fine gents feel so bold as to openly threaten someone, and publicly offer a contract for an illegal kidnapping? Why, it is almost as though they believe the law no longer applies to them. Almost like they have some precedent for believing that.
Our feet have been set on a dangerous path by an administration that is profoundly thoughtless in word, and belligerent in deed, towards the rule of law and the Constitution. It is the path toward warring factions, the splintering of our common society, and a constant inflammation of ethnic strife.” —LauraW. (from Ace of Spades)
Indeed Laura
@anticsrocks:
I don’t have issue with your stats. I am not trying to say that I know why this is happening. I am saying that, as a culture, we seem fine with locking away a huge amount of people in this country – six million people! – and many of those incarcerated for non-violent crimes. I don’t know if you read the article I linked to, but you might find it interesting from a conservative perspective, particularly the enormous costs (both monetary and otherwise) to our society of mass incarceration. One of the more interesting facts is that more and more prisons are run by private for-profit companies:
Read more http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/atlarge/2012/01/30/120130crat_atlarge_gopnik#ixzz1q55Fm5Zj
TSgt Ciz
hi,
if that SMALL COMMUNITY DON.T FIND THE COURAGE TO NOT STAND BEHIND THE
PERSON WHO WAS WATCHING FOR THEM, THEY WILL BE FOUND UNWORTHY TO DEFEND AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE INTIMIDATED BY THOSE GANG EVEN MORE THAN THEY WHERE, BECAUSE IT WILL BE A WIN FOR THE BULLIES AND THEY WILL GROW MORE VISCOUS AND VIOLENT, WHEN THEY KNOW THEY REALLY ARE FEARED,
SO THAT COMMUNITY MUST STAND BEHIND MR ZIMMERMAN NO MATTER THE INTIMIDATION.
@TSgt Ciz, you present yet another version. But in yours, Martin is now the aggressor. Yet other than Zimmerman’s story, after he killed Martin, no where in either Zimmerman’s 911 call, nor his statements/defense to the Sanford police, does that present itself as an option. In all facts we do know, Zimmerman was the aggressor. He pursued Martin. He was out of his car.
And why? Because he thought he looked “suspicious” or on drugs. The bottom line is Zimmerman went after Martin, who was doing nothing illegal. He wasn’t intruding on private property, peeking in windows, etc. He was on public property, doing nothing that warranted Zimmerman’s pursuit. The reason he was there? Up from Miami, visiting his father and fiance, who lived in that complex.
If you’re walking down the street, doing nothing illegal, and a law enforcement officer decides to question you, that’s one thing. But for a unregistered neighborhood watch citizen/”captain” to “detain” you? Don’t think so.
For however this came down, the only thing certain is that the entire event was escalated by Zimmerman’s actions alone – and based on no probable cause. That’s about as simple as you can describe it.
@MataHarley:
According to your linked article, Mata, Natalie Johnson, the Martin’s lawyer, is claiming that Zimmerman was “racially profiling” Martin because of a hoodie. Did she not listen to the 911 conversation Zimmerman had with the PD dispatcher where he clearly said he could NOT tell the race of the “suspect?”
And Ms. Johnson has a law degree? Please, your article would have just as well been written by Al Sharpton.
@retire05:
I used to be an Instructor for Sun Yi’s Academy of Martial Arts for Kansas. One of our legal trainings was to understand that provoking a person is against the law in terms of both Verbal and Physical. ZImmerman may or may not have verbally communicated with Martin, and if he did the communication may have been heated and harsh between the two. A defense claim goes out the window when the supposed person, “Defending” himself is shown to have provoked the supposed aggressor with verbal threats on one’s life.
As for example, person A thinks person B might be in the wrong area at the wrong time but person B’s done nothing wrong yet so Person A wanting to start something might try to use slurs or insults to get B’s attention and if B physically hits A first then A could try to claim a self defense case out since B would have in practice made the first physical hit. In reality if any witnesses or recordings of the conversation before the fight shown that A was to provoke/threaten B into an attack of A then A would be the one in trouble with the Law. Verbal assault/provoking can take the form of threatening another’s life, property, or others in targeted person’s family and is not tollerated by Law and is treated seriously if the provoker is packing any sort of weapon or training.
Problem is as eyewitness reports are coming out, Zimmerman did not chase down Martin contrary to media reports that do not match what little Police have said. If anything police reports and the audiotapes show that Zimmerman was told to stand down and return to his car, weither he was returning to his car or leaving it is where the Media has ran rampant with. Witness reports so far point out that Zimmerman was placed prone near his car on his back with Martin beating on him with Zimmerman calling for help which the screams are found on the audiotapes. These are two on street reports and since it was in a neighborhood there might be more witnesses than willing to come forward, and if the Eyewintesses are lying then they will face jail time for their false testimonies. Zimmerman should have been grilled extensively on what he said and was doing with Martin in the first place, and witnesses in the area should be heavily questioned about Martin’s presecence to afirm his Father’s (thrid) claim the kid was only out to get Skittles (Note the Father of Martin has changed his story three times now, once to being kicked out, to going to the gas station to now getting a bag of skittles.)
This case is a classic example of the Media running wild with the story before the Police findings hit the table. Kinda like that, “A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on” by Winston Churchill.
Mr. Irons, if the witnesses say that “Zimmerman was prone near his car on his back with Martin beating on him with Zimmerman calling for help”, then how did the body get to the location between two homes, no where near the street where a car could be? See map below.
There’s only two ways:
1: Zimmerman, armed with a 9mm, was in fear, and ran to that area and Martin aggressively followed, or
2: Martin ran and Zimmerman followed him.
If #1 is true, the Stand your Ground defense holds true. Then again, it begs us to believe that Martin, who had been running away, now decided to be the aggressor.
If #2 is true, then Zimmerman is still the aggressor.
So far, we have no good explanation as to how Zimmerman came to be so far away from his vehicle. And that’s what should have been investigated more thoroughly. Who, exactly, followed whom? Was Zimmerman, who already admits he was following Martin, now all of the sudden in fear of his life (despite being armed) and now is running away? Like I said, that’s 180 degrees from his already demonstrated behavior. And considering that Martin was running away, we have to accept that Martin also did a 180 degree turn in his behavior.
Is that possible? Sure…. but not without more investigations. On the surface, with what is already known, it should not have been written off as absolute. And that is what lies at the heart of any question of justice.
Matta,
Following someone who is not supposed to be in your gated community is NOT an act of aggression.
I don’t know why you would think it is.
Assigning words such as “Pursued” does not make following an intruder an act of aggression. And being inside a gated community when you don’t belong there is very close to criminal trespass.
So I don’t buy your additional assertion that he wasn’t doing anything illegal. Even here in the ubber liberal PNW, casing homes is a crime.
You are making a few other assertions that I haven’t yet seen supported anywhere (not to say you are incorrect, but I question their validity until confirmed)
He was in a private gated community, not on public property.
He knew no one in that community. He had no reason to be there.
Now admittedly I may be wrong, or you may be wrong and it desn’t really matter to the brass tack of the matter. All that matters is, following a suspicious person in your neighborhood is NOT an act of aggression FULL STOP!!
It is not.
Even going up to them and asking them who the hell they are and what they are doing there is STILL not.
I do it all the damn time. I live on a street that is the end of a T where both directions are short dead ends. If I see someone lingering about that doesn’t live here I go straight up to them to offer to help them find their what OUT. If they don’t want help then they get grilled about why the hell they are back here. There is very short list of likely reasons and all are criminal.
If in the event of my inerogatories they decide to get out and beat my aged ass, I damn well will defend myself up to and including the possibility that I would shoot them, and I don’t give a damn what color they are, how old they are, or what they are wearing.
Now maybe in your mind that makes me a homicidal racist out for blood. But from this side of the old grey eyes, I’m just a member of my community that is tired of seeing cars stolen from driveways, doors kicked in off the frames, children beaten to a bloody mess, old people knock down and bones broken so their medicine Cabinet can be ransacked . And all in a area that no one who doesn’t live here should even know exists. When I moved here I could leave my garage door open with the lights on for a week at a time and never be missing a rusty bolt. But not now.
I know exactly how Zimmerman might have gotten to where he ended up. I do not want to see him hanged on this for what is so far, nothing but pure conjecture and political posturing for the purpose of stripping gun owners the right to self defense and to incite racial division.
@Mr. Irons:
Verbal assault is not cause for physical retaliation. If you think it is, perhaps you can provide the Kansas State statute that allows me to beat the shit out of you if you call me a name, or chase you down in your car if you flip me off (verbal assualt in some states) and cause you physical harm.
As I said Mata, I said Eyewitnessses. They may have mistaken another vechile for Zimmerman’s and since they were outside forces witnessing this, their reports to the police could be clouded or intentionally misleading. There’s more witness reports to come, just the Media has ran rampant with the what if’s as facts instead of allowing the police to fully dig into the case.
Now as you have supplied, that is Zimmerman’s neighborhood. The question is now: Where is Martin’s Father’s home location? Is it in the same neighborhood? If so, than your point of Zimmerman being aggressor holds more water.
Mr. Irons, I don’t have an exact address of the father’s fiance. But as I’ve read in multiple places, and this NBC Miami report notes, Martin… who was from Miami… was in the area visiting his father and his fiance, who lives in that subdivision complex. That also makes sense because that gated neighborhood is not a short cut to any other neighborhoods, when you look at the aerials.
Sorry I missed addressing that comment, Mr. Irons. Again… moot. Please look at map where body was found again, and tell me what vehicle… owned by anyone… it would be near without some pursuit involved?
Mata,
People don’t always die where they are shot. I’ve seen men go several miles before dropping from a lethal GSW. It wasn’t 5 years ago a kid was shot three blocks from me while I was waiting in a McDonald’s drive through and I saw him go the whole distance to the McDonald’s before collapsing in the doorway. He even stopped to argue with a driver in the entry.
But at any rate, it doesn’t make a difference even if he died right where he was shot. That doesn’t make Zimmerman the aggressor or Martin the victim. It make Martin the loser of the conflict. The person who went physical is the aggressor. Do you know who that was? We do know at least one person received injuries before the gun shot, and that person was calling for help and in a position of a great disadvantage. *THAT* is aggression.
Following an apparent intruder onto private property is NOT aggression (no single inch of property in a gated community is public, or they couldn’t gate it). Saying it was pursuit doesn’t make it anything other than what it i really was which is simple surveillance and defense from crimes against property and persons.
I really can’t believe that *you believe, that following a stranger who is somewhere he shouldn’t be is an act of aggression, no matter whether the follower is walking running crawling driving bicycling or flapping their wings and cooing like a pigeon.
None of that give the intruder the right to physically attack someone for surveillance of them.
NONE.
TSgt Ciz, Martin was *never* intruding. He was walking down the complex roads before, what it appears, being pursued by Zimmerman.
And yes, pursuit matters if the defense is based around Stand Your Ground law.
I’m aware that Martin is from Miami, but Police are currently looking at Martin’s Father with suspicion due to the varing stories he’s already told police about his Son. The first was the kid was kicked out of the Father’s house due to a fight over his School suspension, then re-edited to going to a gas station with the later addition of getting skittles. If his father’s home is truly in the same gated neighborhood, then your point of Zimmerman being the Aggressor holds very possible, given Zimmerman’s past… issues and if Zimmerman provoked the teen than Zimmerman should face the full brunt of the Law for his wrong doings.
Mr. Irons, the father’s home isn’t in the complex. The fiance’s home supposedly is.
Ah, supposedly but still a fair point as to why he was in the neighborhood then. Though it is strange for him to be at his father’s Fiance’s house for a Teen but still possible and highly likely. What bothers me is that the Media has not yet bothered to contact the School that Martin went to and find out why the kid was Suspended for 10 days in the first place. A teen that’s been kicked out of School and possibly had a heated conflict with his Father isn’t all there due to emotions and stress taking over and with a supposed Paranoid like Zimmerman, “patroling” the area… the situation is like pouring gasoline on wood a few inches away from a smoldering charcol pit.
Mr. Irons, read the link I provided from NBC… which specifically states Martin “was visiting his father and his father’s fiancée at The Retreat at Twin Lakes in Sanford”. He wasn’t vising his dad’s fiance on the sly, alone…
What difference does it make that Martin was probably not the stand up citizen, and neither was Zimmerman for that matter? Martin was doing *nothing* illegal when passing thru that neighborhood, and Zimmerman, himself, states that in his 911 call. He just thought he looked “suspicious” and “on drugs”. Other than that, the guy was wandering thru a neighborhood, returning to his dad’s fiance’s home with iced tea and a bag of Skittles.
Mr. Irons, read the link I provided from NBC… which specifically states Martin “was visiting his father and his father’s fiancée at The Retreat at Twin Lakes in Sanford”. He wasn’t vising his dad’s fiance on the sly, alone…
What difference does it make that Martin was probably not the stand up citizen, and neither was Zimmerman for that matter? Martin was doing *nothing* illegal when passing thru that neighborhood, and Zimmerman, himself, states that in his 911 call. He just thought he looked “suspicious” and “on drugs”. Other than that, the guy was wandering thru a neighborhood, returning to his dad’s fiance’s home with iced tea and a bag of Skittles.
You know, what becomes ironic is the reports that Martin got on the phone with a female friend, who told him to “run”. If you think about it, this may explain Zimmerman, saying he had “his hand in his pocket”, and Martin taking off running away. The bizarre facts in life dictate that if Martin had just continued his walk, and Zimmerman cruised up and asked who he was, he could have explained where he was going and Zimmerman wouldn’t be hiding out from bounties, and Martin would still be alive. That’s what happens when things escalate.