The notion that the Arab League’s endorsement of the “no fly” zone is somehow vindication for a desperately stupid foreign policy gives one pause for cause. Are our current crop of politicos and advisors unaware there is little love lost between Gaddafi and the Arab League? When you see Arab leaders, crying for western military might in Islamic countries, doesn’t anyone become the least bit suspicious?
I posit the theory that having the west do the Arab League’s dirty work by removing and/or killing Gaddafi, is a win win for them, and a lose lose for the west. And make no mind, killing Gaddafi is most certainly circulating in the background dialogue of the western governments involved. Note of this comes to light when UK’s Chief of the Defence Staff, General Sir David Richards, denies Gaddafi as a target is legal.
He replied: “Absolutely not. It is not allowed under the UN resolution and it is not something I want to discuss any further.”
Since the general is the Prime Minister’s principal military adviser, you might have thought that was the end of it.
Not so. Downing Street “sources” are now telling journalists that the general is, simply, wrong. They add that David Cameron himself will give the final word on the matter in the House of Commons shortly. Headlines involving words like “slapped down” and “humiliation” cannot be far behind.
~~~In the House of Commons, Mr Cameron was challenged on targeting individual Libyan leaders.
He said: “Targets must be fully consistent with the UN Security Council resolution. We therefore choose our targets to stop attacks on civilians and to implement the no-fly zone.”The PM’s official spokesman later repeatedly refused to endorse the general’s position. He said: “All I can do is tell you what the government policy is and it is what the Foreign Secretary said this morning and what the prime minister said in the House.”
Just to make sure we got the message, a Government source later insisted that Gen Richards was “wrong” to claim that the dictator could not be targeted. The source said: “What he said is wrong. The resolution could allow it, under certain circumstances.”
Read more at this Telegraph article.
Benedict Brogan over at the Telegragh is also painfully aware of the mixed messages, as well as scratching his head over why the US Secy of Defense warnings are so easily dismissed. There is, indeed, a rift between a publicly stated “end goal”, and the implementation of that no fly mission, which includes bombing of Gaddafi compounds.
One stellar reason to suspect an quasi-legal assassination of a truly bad guy may be the risk of leaving Libya in a far worse state because of no clear “exit stategy”. Despite Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, and British Defense Secretary Liam Fox’s insistence that regime change is not the goal, a long term division of Libya , sitting on Africa’s biggest oil reserves, via a seemingly endless no fly strategy, would have negative global economic impact in oil speculation commodies.
Nor do any of the western or Euro military powers have much of an appetite for an elongated no fly zone – if for nothing else but economic risk and expense. A down and dirty assassination, while Gaddafi happens to be sitting in a legit “no-fly” target. conveniently speeds along the process.
This suits the Arab League just fine since Gaddafi has long been at cross purposes with the League. Not only has he often threatened withdrawal from that body, in 2005, he described the them as a “mockery”, saying “there is no respect for any resolution from the Arab League”. At the same time, the Saudi’s asked the Libyan diplomat to exit the country, and withdrew their own from Libya.
Adding to it is Gaddafi’s self perception as a king, bestowing upon himself the title “King of Kings” in August 2008.
On 29 August 2008, Gaddafi held a public ceremony in Benghazi in which he was self-handed the title “King of Kings of Africa” with over 200 African traditional rulers and kings as part of a grassroots effort to encourage African heads of state and government to join with Gaddafi toward a greater political cohesion. This was followed on 1 February 2009 by a coronation ceremony in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia simultaneous with the 53rd African Union Summit, at which he was elected head of the African Union for the year.
The title of “King of Kings” was reiterated by Gaddafi at the 2009 Arab League Summit, at which he claimed to be the King of Kings, “leader of the Arab leaders” and “imam of the Muslims” in his criticism of King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia prior to storming out of the summit.
Ironically, at the Arab Summit one year before, Gaddafi spoke passionately about how the US was systematically removing Arab leaders, and warned his fellow members they all could be next… a statement met with laughter.
Considering today’s events, and the betrayal of Gaddafi by the Arab League, one can’t but help but notice the madman had a certain amount of prescience on the subject.
In 2007, Gaddafi was again at cross purposes with the Arab League when he suggested that Arab nations not interfere in the power struggle between Hamas and Fatah.
March 2010, the rift was made yet more noticable when multiple influential Arab League nations boycotted the summit hosted by Libya that year… including Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Egypt, and the sultan of Oman.
Gaddafi and six other Libyan officials were accused of involvement in the disappearance of Sadr and two companions, leading to criticism by the Shiite leadership, compounding the Saudi Sunni’s disapproval of Gaddafi. Making friends among the League was not Gaddafi’s forte.
Even with the ailing relationship, why would the Arab League toss one of their own “under the bus”? The logical answer is because the replacement is a better option. Which brings us to those supposed Libyan democracy freedom lovers which a Security Council has no compunction to endorse… enough to build in flexible “by all means necessary” language to stop Gaddafi from not only violating air space, but demands that “..immediate establishment of a cease-fire and a complete end to violence and all attacks against, and abuses of, civilians” be obeyed.
So what we do know of the Libyan rebels? Not much. Pajamas Media’s John Rosenthal notes that Sarkozy recognized a “…National Council as the “legitimate representative of the Libyan people.” But only seven of these 31 “council” members are identified. Only a tad more information is provided in the referenced le Figaro article referenced, linked here with translation from French to English (For you French fluent FA’ers, here’s the original French version)
In the building, everybody knows that this unexpected recognition gives a major boost to the National Council, a body meant to be the lead on 17 February and the rebel army, which in fact is still struggling to find a reality. Only the presence of a president, chosen by consensus, now face and voice of the revolution, gives a little thick on the Council. Moustapha Abduljalil seems unanimous. This former judge and former justice minister of Qaddafi has built a reputation for opposing March 2, 2010 by publicly accusing the Guide in these jails to detain political prisoners under false pretenses. The output, extremely rare in the reign of Colonel Gaddafi, immediately earned its author a strong admiration, as his reputation for probity. For the rest, as conceded Mouftah Faraj, a French teacher, “we do not know much.”
With a H/T to suek, FA regular, a FOX news article reports of North Africa’s al Qaeda wing, espressing solidarity with the Libyan rebels.
BTW, a bit more on that Libyan “national council” leader, Moustapha Abduljalil , found in Wikipedia under the spelling of Mustafa Abdul Jalil. The unsubstantiated Wiki reports are already glowing about the former Justice Minister, saying:
He has been noted in news media for his stance against various human rights violations in that country.
No links to those media reports… ?. And in fact, Wiki notes he’s been mighty busy giving interviews after his resignation:
On 21 February 2011, during the 2011 Libyan protests, the privately-owned Quryna newspaper reported that he had resigned over “the excessive use of violence against government protesters.”[7]
On 22 February 2011, he stated in an interview with Swedish newspaper Expressen that Gadaffi had personally ordered the 1988 Lockerbie bombing.[8]
On 24 February 2011 he told Al Jazeera that the responsibility for the infection of 400 children with HIV lay totally with Gaddafi’s regime.[9]
On 24 February 2011 he presided over a meeting of opposition politicians, former military officers and tribal leaders the eastern city of Al Bayda.[10]
On 26 February 2011, it was reported that he would lead a Benghazi-based proposed interim government.[11]
Hummmm… the Lockerbie bombing was in 1988. The Libyan HIV experiement was 1998. Why has this man been remaining silent for over 23 years? Where’s he been? Why haven’t we heard of this long “pro democracy” voice coming out of Libya?
Count me skeptical about all this “humanitarian” glow…. I’d like to see something tangible from the past on this.
About the best we can get is from an interview the rebel leader gave to The Daily Beast, and appearing on their site on March 14th.
He hits all the right soaring rhetoric that the west, who’s military he wants to help his rebels assume power, would want to hear.
Should you prevail, what’s your vision of the new Libya?
We are striving for a new democratic, civil Libya, led by democratic and civil government that focuses on economic development, building civil society and civil institutions and a multi-party system. A Libya that respects all international agreements, is good to its neighbors, stands against terrorism, with respect for all religions and ethnicities.How would you the transition to a democratic Libya?
We will be seeking a smooth peaceful transition, with a drafting of a new constitution that will lead the country to a free and fair legislative and parliamentarian elections as well as presidential election. No member of the transitional council will have the right to run for any of these elections. There will be peaceful conference of governance according to elections, under the observation of the international organizations.
Well, we all have to expect that they talk the talk. But what really popped out for me was when the DB asked about al Qaeda in Libya, to which Mustafa replied:
There is no al Qaeda in Libya. Gaddafi is using this as a scare tactic to create fear and distrust between us the international community, but the world learned a long time ago not to trust or believe Gaddafi.
Really? In a nation that is 97% Sunni Muslim, not one AQ supporter? Isn’t that sorta like Ahmadinejad, telling us that Iran has no homosexuals? And lest we forget, there were large numbers of Libyans, crossing the Syrian border to enter Iraq to fight the US coalition forces there. No AQ (or supporters), my arse.
So why would a pro western style democracy Muslim leader gain the support of the North African faction of al Qaeda?
Quite simply, he wouldn’t.
Moreover, if this man was so appalled at Gaddafi atrocities, why did he only now resign? Why has he not spoken out sooner and attempted to make change… even by defecting and using the ICC? Did he not have enough evidence to act as a witness for crimes against humanity?
Yup… count me majorly skeptical.
I suggest that it’s a very good possibility that this new “humanitarian” is all words, little substance and a good mouthpiece to present to a gullible west, desperate to see genuine reform in the ME. I would very much like to be proven wrong, but until then, I don’t believe a word of it all.
Personally, I’m not under the impression that the Arab League will throw over Gaddafi for pro western democracy forces. And I’m also extremely leery about what we do not know of this “council” of future transition leaders. Who are they, and what is their agenda?
What I do know is that the Arab League wins either way. If the west kills Libyan Muslims while enforcing the no fly zone, it’s a plus to their traditional rhetoric. Those accusations have already begun. They also can get rid of a leader with questionable loyalty, and still blame the meddling west for overstepping the bounds and assassinating Gaddafi. The icing on the cake is that the Arab League will have great influence with the upcoming transitional “council” since – as everyone loves to point out… including the UN – the Arab League was instrumental in getting the rebels the military aid from the international community for victory.
The question is, what have the western nations been duped into? How have they convinced western leaders to use military might to support a rebellion and civil war in a Muslim country, all without knowing the players in that rebellion?
I think I’m more on the side of Andrew Bostom at Human Events…. no non-Muslim forces are required here.
Mordechai Nisan, writing over a decade ago, observed that already by the mid-1990s the world’s then over 50 Islamic nations had amassed considerable economic and military power — both of which have further increased during the subsequent 10+ years:
The Muslim umma [global community] was by the mid-1990s numbering approximately one billion believers, possessing over 50 Muslim states, and in control of a little less than a third of United Nations membership; moreover, possessing more than 50 per cent of known crude oil resources and a combined military arsenal of conventional and non-conventional weaponry second only to the combined Western bloc of states. The international balance-of-power could not in the aftermath of the end of the Cold War ignore the Muslim civilization and its awesome pretensions to playing a dominant role in global affairs.
I maintain that the “Libyan freedom fighters” ongoing needs for military assistance be provided exclusively by Muslim nations from the now 57 member Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC).
Of the same opine is Andrew McCarthy over at NRO… one of the few to buck the “humanitarian” BS argument.
Yup… I second those motions.
Vietnam era Navy wife, indy/conservative, and an official California escapee now residing as a red speck in the sea of Oregon blue.
On topic:
Off topic, but I just ran across it… The title tells the story.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/03/florida-circuit-court-judge-allows-case-to-proceed-under-islamic-law.html
I’m not clear about which Islamic states we’d like to see mobilizing their military forces and moving them into Libya.
My initial reaction to the uprising was that the Libyan people should be left to work out their own problems. Then I started thinking about what a paranoid, egomaniacal, oil-rich dictator with a long history of funding international terrorism might quickly get up to, all across a suddenly destabilized region. The guy could quickly become a geopolitical disaster actively looking for the worst possible places to happen. Should we take the risk of getting rid of him now, or take the risk of allowing the opportunity to pass?
Thanks, suek. I added the Fox news like to the North African AQ arm, and their express of support.
Greg, it’s an American tendency to want to step in when we see oppression that is foreign to our own views of freedom. However that doesn’t leave many nations out of the equation when it comes to “allowing the opportunity to pass”, does it?
When was the last time you remember the League of Arab Nations, pleading with western powers to use military force in a Muslim nation? This doesn’t emit any kind of odor, or raise your eyebrows one little bit?
Something really smells… yes, the duplicity and hypocrisy of not only this POTUS, but the entire Democrat Party is on display. But something is majorly afoot here.. and it’s not about protecting the Libyan citizens.
China and Russia seem also to be trying to have their cake and eat it too: both of them declined to veto the UN resolution authorizing a no-fly zone (either could have, being on the security council) – but now that missiles are flying they’re condemning us.
If this were really all about humanitarian intervention, you’d think we should also be in Yemen, Somalia, Congo, and Zimbabwe (at least; there are probably other tragedies in Africa that I’m not up to speed on). I don’t know who cooked up this military action or what the real reasons behind it are, but the official story is completely implausible.
@suek, on a side note of the trustees of the Islamic Education Center of Tampa, vs that same institution… that appears to be a legal dispute about enforcing the arbitrators’ decision that the plaintiffs attempt to have the courts intervene.
When parties enter an arbitration agreement, they both agree to accept it’s findings and it’s generally not appealed outside of the arbitration board. This is true even in real estate agreements, where all parties sign standard offers to purchase stating they will submit to arbitration/mediation in lieu of jury trials and the court system. I don’t read this as anything other than a court stating they do not have the jurisdiction to usurp an arbitration agreement.
Obama has put Gaddafi in a double-bind dilemma.
EITHER:
Gaddafi fights to the death….and we just learned that even though Obama froze Gaddafi’s bank acocunts…..Gaddafi has $6.5 billion in gold in his own Libyan central bank….143.8 tonnes of gold!
OR:
Gaddafi gives up and faces a War Crimes Tribunal and probable death sentence.
Gee, which way do I go?
Even the Japanese always gave a face-saving way out.
Obama sucks at diplomacy, peacetime or gunboat.
_______________________
As to the Arab League, we must remember that they have to say one thing to the Infidel world and another, usually opposite thing, to their own Muslim hoards.
Before so many translations were out here, the Muslims, like Yassar Arafat, used to get away with it, too.
@Nan G, #6:
We Infidels aren’t necessarily the biggest source of worry at the moment. Providing requested air support for a Muslim populace uprising against an authoritarian terrorist regime might not be the dumbest move we could have made. We’re not the only ones who could find ourselves dealing with unintended consequences.
What surprises me is knowing the Europeans lack of stomach for fighting, is this coalition hasn’t crumbled already. Listening to these so called generals and flunky politicians, it sounds like ” keep the devil you know, the next may be worst .” But a lot of pats on the back for the humanitarianism thing.
@Greg:
I didn’t mean to imply we infidels are Muslim leaders’ biggest worries, Greg, I agree with you.
Most Islamic rulers have amassed huge fortunes by skimming all the wealth of their land and by keeping their own populace as poor as possible and reliant on them as welfare gift givers.
Islam has two devils at present.
The ”great satan” is the USA, the West and all of the world of unbelievers.
The ”lessor satan” is Israel and the Jews.
These two have successfully been used as scapegoats until very recently.
The advent of cell phones, internet, blogging and so forth have popped that lie of a balloon.
So, it doesn’t surprise me that Islamic leaders still wanted the infidels doing the killing of Muslim people instead of themselves doing it.
As you know, several Islamic countries in the coalition have jets, but so far, no coverage has shown any of them in action.
The fact is, these Muslim leaders have all been caught killing their own.
In Egypt, in Yemen, in Bahrain, in Saudi Arabia, in Syria, in Libya and elsewhere.
Yet still they point to the USA, Europe, the West as the ones killing Muslim civilians in Libya.
But as I said, that lie of a balloon is popped.
Yet old habits die hard.
@L. E. Liesner:
L.E.L.
Europe was threatened by Gaddafi with an open floodgate allowing millions of illegal Africans get to Europe’s shores.
Once there, these illegals are eligible for generous welfare programs in one European country after another.
They also gain the right to family reunification which means the rest of their families get to come into Europe, too.
That scary thought is behind Europe’s seeming backbone.
MATA thank you, very interesting developments coming to help us put the pieces together,
suek, you are there to inform on what they are cooking , always attentive, thank you,
BTW, I added more about this Libyan “national council” leader in the post above, so you may want to scroll down to the section where I originally mentioned Sarkozy and this “council” of unknowns for an update.
Bees, you’re welcome. I was actually hoping you’d read the original French le Figaro article linked inthe post, and tell us if we missed something in the translation. Yes maam… I put that link in specifically for you. Now go to it, and give us some feedback on the original French article, yes? :0)
MATA, that would be interesting to have the list of the 57 membership STATES at UN,
1/3rd of them, pretty high for global influence, and powerplay.
NOW I understand why the CANADIENS DIPLOMATS AT THE UN, where denied a certain bid for
something they wanted, and felt the embarrasment for CANADA to be treated this way,
it was about a position of higher standing for CANADA,: I was told and I was so angry to
hear of the shame they felt, I answer how I felt about the UN, and that CANADA had no reason to feel the shame and to stand tall against the UN , I turn out the position landed on a MUSLIM representative by their votes, to my surprise and agressive answer, I was told that it was a loss of prestige for CANADA,
I wont repeat what I answer to where they can stick the quest for WORLD PRESTIGE.
From what I have read, the Arab League wanted a no-fly zone in the strict sense. Right now tanks and infrantry transportation vehicles are being targeted. Tanks (except in one episode of Ultraman) , cars and busses don’t fly or shoot down aircraft. Even Obama is hitting up on the civilian protection angle which means the rebels because they are civilians. The mission has went from a no-fly zone to an air support role and the Arab League is not the only ones upset by that.
Also the Arab League wasn’t sending in any jets near the boarder with Libya and nobody was vocally urging them to do so. Anybody could see that the Arab League was not interested in physically supporting a no-fly zone.
The UN mandate was also a waste. The U.S., France and Britan have taken the lead and will be doing all the work. Although the governments are throwing terms such as “UN mandate” and “coalition,” what is winding up in the news is terms such as “U.S.,” “France,” and “Britan.”
MATA, okay bear with me, here I go; 53/1 00 of british are against hit on LIBYA, they think the soldier should not risk their life to help the opposition: FRANCEsend an AMBASSADOR TO JOIN
THE OPPOSITITON NAME[DID NOT TAKE] THEY RECONNISE AS NEW LEADERSHIP OF LIBYA:
one LIBYEN MARINE BASE WAS HIT WITH BOMBS 10 km east of TRIPOLI21 march, witness saw flames coming out at 7 pm, base name BOUSSETA: THE TELEVISION announce that the INTERNATIONAL COALITION WAS BOMBARDING TRIPOLI, shots from anti air defence where heard, followed by explosions in the AREA OF THE RESIDENCE OF MOUAMMAR KADHAFI AT TRIPOLI:
A INTERNATIONAL COALITION WITH ON TOP THE UNITED STATES , FRANCE, GREAT BRITAIN, BOMBARDED BY AIR AND SEA military objectives on saturday to stop the REPRESSION OF THE REVOLT STARTED FEBRUARY 15 AGAINST COLONEL KADHAFI, THAT’S WHAT I TOOK BYE
I’m not gonna say that their is no conspiracy afoot Mata. in my opinion the negligence of the president on this issue; disgraceful.
The lack of cohesive leadership or even a general plan; disgraceful.
The president delegating the authority on Libya to hostile nations; disgraceful.
However if Momar Gadaffi even gets “accidentally” incinerated by a tomahawk missile I will rise to my feet put my hand over my heart and I’m sure a tear will stream down my face as i say a deep heartfelt pledge to old glory. Imagine; the greatest nation on the earth just sent another terrorist to hell… where he belongs. I dream about that.
God bless America!
Thanks, Bees. Also for your Canadien perspective on Canada’s equal snub from the UN. Since that body is 1/3 Arab nations, and many not supporters of western freedoms, it’s not surprising.
What you say from the French version of the article is pretty much what I took away from the translation. That the British are pretty well split on new engagement in Libya, and that the “no fly” implementation is going beyond a neutral force, supposedly protecting “innocents”. I don’t think that’s the plan. There is a “side” that the coalition is cheering for, and it ain’t Gaddafi.
Which brings me to you, @Gregory_Dittman. I don’t really disagree with anything you said from a surface or tactical standpoint, based on lip service in news reports. I will wonder about your surprise and assumptions.
There is no surprise that France, Britain and the US take the lead since these three are those that supported the UN mandate, and are the strongest in these type of assets. Remember that Germany and Russia… also strong air defense… abstained and now point to the Arab League’s whining as the reason why. So who’s left but those names in the spotlight? Not surprising.
I will agree that, on the “lip” surface, a more traditional and neutral no fly zone is what the Arab League requested. On this aspect, I’d like to make two points.
First, a traditional and neutral no fly strategy will entail knocking out any anti-aircraft capabilities. Some tanks may be equipped with this, and therefore qualify. Palaces, compounds and barracks… nope. There in lies the coalition, showing their not so genuine poker hand on their end goals. Perhaps our more knowledgeable veterans on FA will weigh in with more specifics tanks, equipped with anti-aircraft technology as targets.
Secondly, you said something very interesting. That despite the air power that many of these Arab League nations have, not only are they not contributing, but *no one* made it a point to strongly suggest, or mandate, their participation in the wake of their bizarre request.
I see this as part of my theory presented in this post.
Believe me, I’ve thought quite a bit about this turn of events before penning this post. And there is no way I can’t see the western nations as being “had” by the Arab League as a whole. The Arab League “want” a neutral no fly zone, but refuse to participate in that, guaranteeing it is to their satisfaction.
Let me reiterate that. They have no interest in “physically” supporting a no fly zone, but yet they demand one by the west? And historically, they know the west would have (unacceptable levels of )collateral damage of Muslim lives and overextend in scope, but yet they refuse to play the mediator and take responsibility for neutrality themselves?
In one way, we get to the same conclusion. Where we might differ is that you believe the Arab League is surprised and disappointed. Me? I think it is deliberate.
So again, I come back to the same conclusion. The west were the dupes of the Arab League to do their dirty work.
@Zac:… LOL I think few people would mourn Gaddafi’s passing. I might disagree that it will be an American missile that does it tho.
And you give Obama far too much credit for involvement. He merely puttered, stammered, flip flopped, procrastinated with “just words”, and then finally gave in to peer pressure by others in his admin and the UN.
He’s nothing more than a bit player. Really. I wouldn’t waste time being disappointed in the lack of leadership. Gosh darn.. where you been the last two years? Why would you expect that now? Obama wearing a “deer in the headlights” policy is not news. It’s the daily haps.
mata yes ,I came back to check if I had copyed some diffrence and did not find any, I’m back from there, with SARAH PALIN in ISRAEL dining in private with theNETANYAHU, and with TOD and will be back soon,….
now obama at BRESIL WITH 1 MILLIARD DOLLARS FOR A LOAN TO FINANCE THE 2014 OLYMPIC WORLD CUP, HE WAS WITH HIS BANKER AND THE MONEY FROM THE BANK IMPORT EXPORT OF THE USA AND ALSO 2018 OLYMPIC STRUCTURES, THEY ARE TOURING LATIN AMERICA
Lemme guess, Bees… you’re reading thru le Figaro as a new news source now? Don’t be leaving us in the dust, girl. Most of us are challenged in your first language, you know. LOL
Interesting you mention the Import/Export Bank of the USA. They are the ones who granted the $2 bil loan to Petrobras for drilling in the Gulf of Mexico, when US companies cannot. They have not drawn on that loan in full, and it will create US jobs. But it does not create US domestica oil assets.
Then again, I’d rather buy from Brazil than Venezula. But enough of the oil diversion… my apologies for off topic diversions. LOL
MATA, violence continiue with RAIDSinLIBYA, while the coalition is dividing, other many countrys
demand a unified command from the OTAN on the land;…. KADHAFI SOLDIERS RECLAIM THE CITY OF MISRATA,…KADHAFI PREDICT A LONG WAR,…AN ANCIANT MILITARY NEDERLAND SUCCEEDED TO HEAR THE MESSAGES FROM THE PLANES AND PUT IT ON TWITER,…
COALITION WARNS TO DESTROY THE LIBYEN SHIPS
Lovely Ms. Bees… the violence will indeed continue with the no fly zone. It was never to stop the violence, but (IMHO) to provide aid to the rebels, and their unknown desires, by using the world’s military against Gaddafi’s military. It will just be violence on the ground, instead of in the air.
You might consider it a “rent a military force” measure… and the idiots complied. Were I the POTUS, if I’m going to “rent” out the US military, I want to know who I’m renting it to.
I would be interested in the fate of Libyan naval ships, however… especially after the Egyptian revolution.
MATA , IN SYRIA NOW THE USA CONDEM THE VIOLENCES FROM LAST WEEKEND FROM THE GOVERNMENT USING TOO MUCH FORCES AND WARN THEM TO STOP DOING TO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE GATHERD TO MANIFEST OPPOSITION TO POWER
MATA, I’M BACK….ARABS REVOLUTION UNSEEN BEFORE IS ON THE WAY, AFTER TUNISIA AND EGYPT, MANY OTHER ARE BEING THREATEN TO FALL… BARHAIN CHIITES MISS THEIR REVOLUTION,
I’m not much of an Armaggedon/Revelations type, Bees, but it does make you think twice about the end of the Mayan calendar at times, eh?
MATA, THE ARABS REVOLUTION IS A PUZLLE FOR OBAMA…IN WASHINGTON OBAMA IS MIX BETEEN TRYING TO STOP THE BLOODBATH AND BEING SUCKED INTO AN ENDLESS WAR IN ISLAM,
SARKOZY PRESIDENT SAID WE MUST NOT BE AFRAID OF THE ARABS REVOLTS…
SRANGE SILENCE FROM ALQAIDA IN ARAB WORLD
MATA I was in bed and I came back to ask you if you should contact the PENTAGONE about the nedderland military who got the messages from the planes and reveal it on twiter,
The link open to say try again,the one you gave me, I save the FIGARO paper,
I didn’t know it was now the end of the MAYAN”S CALENDAR, OOF THAT’S SCARY YES AND THE FULL MOON ALSO WHEN THE NUTS COME OUT,
BYE
@ilovebeeswarzone:… I don’t have ties to the Pentagon, nor could pass on anything from Twitter they wouldn’t be aware of. But what are you speaking of INRE planes from the Netherlands? No fair reading French news and not passing it on… :0)
Oh yes, Mayan calendar doesn’t end until December of 2012. Specific days are disputed. Some say it’s and end. Others a beginning. Either way, it’s an “event” in the Mayan perspective.
no planes from the NEDERLANDS, IT IS a person military man who succeed to capture the messages from the planes over LIBYA and reveal those to twiter, so maybe the PENTAGONE should be advise,
because the news came from FRANCE, I KNOW YOU GOT A BETTER CHANCE TO CONTACT THEM THAN ME, JUST TRY IT
Bees, I don’t “twitter”… LOL! Gave that up and Facebook for “Lent”, so to speak. Not really. Just got impatient having a social media dictate that much personal time in my life. So I disabled both a Twitter and Facebook account. And when I had them, I never signed up to “follow” or be a “friend” of any. Just was too intrustive into real three dimensional life, ya know?
I haven’t a clue what anyone overhead from planes over Libya. But I daresay that all military intel monitors all social media these days. They probably knew the instant it was sent. Me? Just a lowly blogger with opinions, girl!
MATA we have to be sure, of they know, because they will send the message to the planes ,we can phone the pentagone and alert them, if they know good and if they dont know, they will appreciate, if you dont want to do it give me the phone number and I will try, but you as an author have more standing than me and you are AMERICAN so your word is more solid, will you try or i will
Keep in mind that POTUS . . . Absolutely and Totally believes in “Power to the People” . . . this weird perspective is a profound confusion of democracy and communism, where the actual control is NO control at all. Where the “dictates of chaos” determine the final outcome of any and every situation. This fits perfectly with the “Never waste a good crisis”. There is no logic in a crisis or chaos . . . the end result will be just more chaos with a different tone . . . the tone being that the “voice of the people” has been heard. What I think is happening is we may be seeing the birth of a new form of political/social demographic . . . it comes very close to “social democracy”. The link provides a perpective of what social democracy is:
http://www8.georgetown.edu/centers/cdacs/bermanpaper.pdf
Clearly to me . . . what has happened in Libya is “social democracy” being born. Leftest will love it. Constitutional Conservatives (the political right) will hate it. IN this case Right does not equal correct or Left does not equal wrong. It is evoluation due to communications.
@ilovebeeswarzone:
Beezy, Lucianne had this in their line up:
Listen: Secret Libya Psyops, Caught by Online Sleuths
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/03/secret-libya-psyops/#
Then I noticed this in the comment section:
I see we have Tallgrass here today, perhaps he will weigh in on this.
Also, we probably should have Curt have his boss call the Pentagon, then Curt just might get a promotion and raise. Just teasing.
MISSY , thank you, I was afraid that what that NEDERLAND MAN DID, would cost lives on our people on the PLANES, Since it came from a FRENCH MEDIA it was possibly not receive by our side,
and it botherd me, bye,
sorry MATA for having tryed to give you the task of alerting the pentagone…
TallGrass, this is interesting to know, and scary to think that It’s just the beginning, and they wont stop marching, after they win more of the MUSLIM COUNTRY, we better be making plan seriously to be able to stand firm in front of their advance that will spread outside those ARAB COUNTRYS,
AND SUPPORT THE DIGGING OF OUR OWN OIL SOON, WE CANNOT SIT AND WAIT FOR THEIR MOVE,
WE HAVE TO FORSEE IT LIKE WELL ENOUGH AS TO BE ABLE TO NOW ELABORATE THE PLANNING,
Remember Wikileaks?
So, perhaps it is good the ceasefire is not taking sides.
Looks like Egypt all over again.
A dictator is pushed out.
Then harsh Sharia and extremist Islamists take over.
(In Egypt just since the harsh Sharia constitution passed, Muslim fatwas have been republished that no more Christian churches shall ever be built……and none now existing may be repaired.)
Sweet! NOT!
Nan G, here’s the text of the Egyptian amendments to the Constitution. Nothing in there is “harsh Shariah”.
I left this on Curt’s post above, but I’ll also leave it here. Strong words from someone on my side of the isle. I know lots of liberals echoing this sentiment. This could be Obama’s doozy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YZrQz4hW-k
OK, Bees… between Missy’s post above, and your comments, now I know what you’re talking about…
Truth is, Bees… I wouldn’t know who to contact in the Dept of Defense if I possessed inside knowledge. Information like that may better be directed to the CIA. Then again, this is probably a NATO mission, so where does that leave us?
But should you need it in the future, here is a directory to the multitude of federal agencies.
@Nan G, I must be behind on the Egytian election. It was my understanding that changes that went in were temporary. And that they loosen up on some civil rights, and put in term limits. However the MB factions and others want to rewrite it after their main election.
From what I read, it was a packet of amendments. Both MB and Mubarak supporters supported the amendments, and el Baradei’s group opposed them, wanting an entirely new Constitution. A little premature for that…
According to an (BWAHAHAHA) NPR reporter (BWHAHAHAH)…. yeah, I know…. the government didn’t publish the amendments for the voters to see until election day. Also there was some pressure by an “unnamed” group… ahem… who put posters up saying it was “un-Islamic” not to vote for the amendments. er, cough… wonder who that was. LOL
I haven’t seen anything specific on the amendments. Have you? In which case what what “harsh Shariah” Constitution passed?
MATA thank you for the info that you sure always can find with your expertise that is way superior to mine. ON that reports I GAVE YOU was my poor translation of the bits of news I picked up, and also trying to put it in fewer words, to get it back to FA faster,,
bye
YOU just demolish my thought of applying for a SPY job,
;
CARY, thank you for the link very informative for here to make a balance judgement on the rules of the
CONSTITUTION’S APPLICATIONS and CONSEQUENCES OF NOT REGARDING IT AS A PROFOUNDLY IMPORTANT PAPER TO KEEP IN MIND BY AN AWOL ADMINISTRATION WHICH DISREGARD IT SHAMESLY.
Cary Would you rather madman Gadhafi bomb Benghazi with 100,000 civilian casualties.That scenario imminant prior to weekend intervention.
Nan I don’t believe the M.B. and harsh Sharia will rule Egypt.We’ll see.
@rich wheeler:
I’m not saying Gadhafi is a good guy, not at all. I’m simply holding this President to the same standards of accountability and responsibility to the Constitution as I would any other. The UN does not authorize the President to engage, that’s up to congress. The liberal position against Bush was that if we spend our resources policing the world against human rights violations, we’d be too busy to take care of our own. It was a position I, while feeling greatly for those who suffer, agreed with; and I’m a consistent person – there’s no double standard for Obama just because I voted for the guy. We are putting ourselves into mid-Eastern countries affairs, and not making friends by doing so. We don’t even actually know who we’re helping in Libya.
Cary I’ll take that as a yes. IMHO this action prevented further grief on your part.I’ll take the slings and arrows to prevent the slaughter.
I’m a progressive Dem. but Kucinich is out there on his own limb.
Bush’s call to war in Iraq was re. imminent threat of WMD use against U.S. and/or our allies.No talk of humanitarian causes or Democracy building until later (wonder why).
@rich wheeler:
I answered your question as fully and completely as is possible. I’ll thank you not to put words in my mouth. We libs are always saying that conservatives see things in black and white, and leave no grey area to be considered. Now you want a black and white answer from me, and then presume to “assume” what my answer is? Don’t. I gave you my answer.
My position on the argument presented was taken a the the time the argument was presented. Before or after is irrelevant to the point I’ve made here.
Furthermore, I found this video posted by Progressive Liberal friends of mine, who agree with the Senator. He’s not out there alone. You may disagree with him, and that’s fine.
As I said, I’m a consistent person. The “rules” apply to all sides, even the one I’m on – even when it’s inconvenient.
Cary Slaughter of 100,ooo civilians “Inconvenient”; so you “can stay consistant”.So be it.
I’m with Sarah Palin on this one.
Last month Egypt had post revolution destruction of dozens of Coptic Christian churches.
Then, on March 14th headlines were made when the transition government said it was going to work with the Coptic Christians to repair their burned out churches.
But two days ago a re-issuing of an older fatwa was published to stop that work.
The clerics must be obeyed and they say no new non-Muslim places of worship may ever be built in Egypt AND no existing non-Muslim places may be expanded or repaired…..ever.
The repair work was halted.
So, maybe this is just plain Sharia.
Only seems harsh when you consider how these Coptics surrounded these Muslims on Fridays during the unrest so the Muslims could pray.
Well, Nan G… they also threw rocks at the “revolutionary figure head”, El Baradei, on election day too.
Now, even without a government and under military rule, they’re still out there, emulating the US union workers and demanding more more and more with continued protests after their “win”. Guess their vision of US “democracy” is very impressionable. Apparently that lesson is thug, street actions will achieve all your desires.
Nan G, what you are describing is not the work of the military rule, Constitution, or the voters. It’s clerics and religious rules. That was present pre and post Mubarak. No relation to the official restructuring of government, that has yet to happen.
@rich wheeler:
It must be quite uncomfortable sitting in all of that straw.
Cary Strawman would indicate I’ve misquoted you or misrepresented your position on Libya. I apologize.
@rich wheeler:
I’m just wondering what part of “adhering to the US Constitution” you might have missed. That is where I DO take a black and white stance.
IMO, it would be rather foolish to assume that this would be an “in and out” operation. Without Congressional approval, there is no way we’ll be able to stick out what we’ve started. This is going to really bite down on our buttocks, and make the situation worse.
Quoting how many people have died in a CIVIL WAR, to present me as callous to the situation, is irrelevant as to whether or not we have any business getting involved, and essentially creating more enemies for ourselves.
And to use the “Humanitarian Champion” mask to justify this action is also strawman. If that’s the case, then why pray tell are we not in Darfur or any other of the many places in the world where atrocities are being committed?
Cary I understand your position re the constitution and a declaration of war.Some have disagreed.I did not quote how many have died in a civil war.I suggested Saturday’s intervention immediately SAVED 100,000 casualties in Benghazi per Gadhafi’s stated intentions and his military capabilities.
We most certainly should have intervened in Darfur.
@MataHarley:
He was trying to go in and vote against the new Sharia-not Secular constitution, Mata.
That’s why they stoned him and threw shoes at him.
The transitional government was going to rebuild that church that Islamists burned down.
The clerics put them in their place.
No New Churches.
No fixing up old churches.
No expanding crowded churches.
But, that is the basis for the new constitutional government now that Sharia is enshrined in their constitution.
Nan G, I’m not *that* behind on the Egytian election. I linked the text to the Constitutional addendums above. Please point out in exactly which of those addendums state what you suggest. Hint… that’s not going to go well for you….
The true story is that El Baradei didn’t want to vote for partial reforms because he wanted a new Constitution at the outset. This placed him at odds with MB and Mubarak former leaders because all they need to do is get elected using their existing organizations and contacts, and then restructure.
Throughout the Middle East any and all news media, printed media, and perhaps even entertainment media from the West is essentially a form of PhysOp. The lifestyle of the common man in most of the countries there is beyond Western comprehension. Yes, we have thousands to millions of people from different countries living in a cultural soup in those countries, people from almost every country throughout the world are there. In Abu Dhabi the population there is over 90% expatriot mostly made up of peoples from India, Pakistan, Philippines, Bangladesh, with a strong influence from the Brits. As we saw in Libya when any wide scale civil unrest occurs a huge percentage of these expats are essentially trapped and will attempt exodus to get out of the country or go back to their home country. Basically what it comes down to is the average person that lives in these countries is NOT a citizen of that country. Politically, they have absolutely NO rights other than paying taxes (remember in Muslim countries EVERYONE that WORKS pays what is essentially a tax, muslims pay a percentage of their salary to the Islamic Faith, while non-muslims pay a “tribute” for being under Islamic Law Protection).
For the expat, a person living in an “other than home country”, even though they maybe Islamic, the repression is severe and an ever present feeling of subjugation permeates their lives. In Abu Dhabi’s astonishing industrial development the average expat, especially those from OTHER than Western countries, and this includes Islamics from other areas of the Middle East, living conditions are NOT what anyone from the West would understand. The ICAD, Industrial City Abu Dhabi (pronounced I-COD) has an adjacent “camp” . . . this camp is mostly for single men, but there is a small section for “married people”. Living in this camp, in Modern (by middle eastern standards) 3 or 4 story buildings is an estimated 50 to 60 thousand men. These buildings very much resemble Army Barracks of today. Each floor is equipped with a cooking area and a bathroom . . . estimates are that between 8 and 12 men live in each room, with average occupancy per floor at 260 to 300 men. This camp is beyond its desgin capacity 100% of the time and new buildings are being erected as fast as possible. The following link gives a reasonable discussion of the conditions in Mussafah ICAD:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/08/middleeast.construction
Ultimately what is happening in the Middle East is people such as those living in the ICAD Camp are being deluged with Western perspectives of a life that they will NEVER see. To the average worker in Abu Dhabi, everyone in the United States lives in Disneyland. They would do ANYTHING and I mean ANYTHING to come to the US, or any Western Country, including Europe, although I think many of them know that Europe is NOT Disneyland . . . but they do think that the US of A is!!!
During these economic downturn times. The existence of those expats throughout the Middle East has become ever more in jeopardy. They live a bare existence in the Middle East . . . yet all of them live a better life where ever they are than they ever did in their home country. Keep in mind that loss of employment, no job to go to, for this expat is the WORST thing that can possibly happen to them. They become ILLEGAL. The company that most of them work for have them on contract . . they can not just simply get another job. When their contract expires they MUST leave the country and return to their home country. Once they are home they can attempt to get a new contract somewhere else in the Middle East.
Folks this is a modern form of Slavery.
Am I surprised to see the wide spread unrest? No. These people are exercising their voices . . . for they have not rights, period!
Tallgrass, hi, this is very interesting to read as usual, many as myself didn’t know they where cram in building, like animals in corporate farms, this fact lead me and other for sure to compassion
toward them, but what come next is their core beleifs that make them like explosive matter when mix with free air to breed, and the fact that they are required to make a lot of babys until the woman is destroyed, but the goal is achive as they become a multitude of same to obey the call for insurrection when the leader which ever it is decide to rampage, they follow blindly ready to be destroyed for the cause to obey that command,
that is why I want the BORDERS MEXICAN SIDE TO BE CLOSE, BECAUSE IT GIVE SOME OF THEM THAT ARE ESCAPED THE GROUD FOR OBSCURE REASONS UNKNOWN, TO BE SUPPORTED TO
BE CROSSING IT AND ASK FOR REFUGY STATUS OR REMAIN HIDDEN IN MANY MOSQES THEIR LEADER BUILT IN THIS AMERICA, OR THEY WILL COME IN SPONSORED BY THE LEADER USING COLLECTIVE MONEY TO ADD MORE TO HIS FOLLOWERS, THIS HAPPEN SLOWLY UNDERCOVER
OF THE CITIZENSLOCALS WHO ARE TOO BUSY TO BOTHER WITH FINDING WHO LIVES NEXT DOOR;
some who are vigilant and voice their cocern are demonise by the supporter who profit from that humans slavery control, and as we see now they have acquire some power in the GOVERNMENT
BECAUSE THEY VOTES FOR THEM, AND ARE BEING PROTECTED AT THIS TIME, OVER THE LOCALS WHO FOR MANY ARE SUBJECT TO ACCEPT THEM BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN FILL WITH THE PROPAGANDE COMING FROM THEM SO MUCH AS TO MAKE THOSE LOCALS JOIN IN THEIR RANKS.
THAT IS LETHAL FOR THIS COUNTRY TO FOLLOW THE PATH BLINDLY , AND OFFER NO RESISTANCE THAT IS SO WEAK TOO WEAK TO CHANGE ANY THING, TOO WEAK TO CLOSE THE BORDERS,
WE MUST DO SOME CHANGE IN 2012