The enemy from within… the Democrat Socialists of America in their alliance with the Congressional Progressive Caucus and the unions… has begun to shed their cloak and boldly show their faces in the unions/WI/collective bargaining debate. And right along with it, they’ve laid their agenda on the table. The stakes are large – union power over government, taxpayer funds – and now they need the power of the bully pulpit.
To coax out a POTUS who avoids controversy with every waking hour, they openly engage in an Alinsky style national disinformation propaganda campaign, whipping up the disgruntled, followed by thinly veiled threats of ripping away future support to Obama.
Last Wednesday, MN House Rep Keith Ellison, and co-chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, put out the public appeal for Obama to “… come to Wisconsin and stand with the workers.”
“The fact is, is that it’s working people who are going to be pounding for him in a couple of years,” Ellison said, referring to the 2012 campaign. “It’s working people whose policies that we elected him to pursue, and so, I think it’s only sensible that he would stand on the side of labor at this time.”
Hummm… think we have any political interests at play here now?
Mata Musing: And yes yes… I don’t need any of you out there to point out Ellison’s Muslim faith, or his relationship with Farrakhan… Please don’t digress from the union/progressive/DSA agenda that is the centerpiece of this post to appease some other caliphate subterfuge. I beg you to stay on topic for something larger and more eminent…
While more subtle in rhetoric, Trumka piled on to Ellison’s infinitely more direct entreaty today with his round table appearance on MTP. Tho he believed Obama’s “assault on unions” commentary was “the right way”, Trumpka responded to MTP’s David Gregory’s direction question about Obama’s personal involvment by saying, “Everybody could be doing more”.
Clearly Obama’s union/progressive/socialist base is not happy that their bought and paid for POTUS will not step out on that proverbial limb for them without undue pressure. And now, they have no qualms about danging olive branches, laden with promises of future political funding and support, in their desperate quest to bid for bully pulpit pressure.
Will the POTUS acquiesce? With this WH denizen, we can be assured he won’t be responding until his campaign team gets some adequate poll numbers on the best way he and the TOTUS should answer. I’ll give it a week or two, based on past slo-mo performance.
UPDATE: Bryon York reports that Obama’s Secretary of Labor, Hilda Solis, has found Obama’s missing “walking shoes”. The labor secretary is out there, loud and clear, fighting for the union label. With Obama’s blessings, as his proxy, or to his dismay? Who knows. END UPDATE
The rise of the collective bargaining “rights”, as the union mob wishes to term it, has given a new opportunity for the quintessential Alinsky tactic to agitate their disgruntled base… however small… with lofty arguments about “workers rights”. And they find no dearth of the uneducated to agitate. Additionally, we have a new political entitlement… it’s called *Irresponsible Obstructionism*, openly practiced by wayward, MIA Dem elected state legislators in two states to date. Apparently, the new way to watch your constituents’ back when you don’t have the votes to dissent, is to simply run away to prevent any action at all.
Can you imagine the media op-eds had the GOP done this during the Pelosi/Reid/Obama power reign?
The actors in this convoluted political farce are so inbred… performing a political screenplay fraught with tangible interwoven agenda… that it could make a privately employed citizen scream with frustration. But here’s the political plot in a nutshell…
The Progressive Caucus, the unions, the Democrat Socialists of America and the nation’s POTUS… afraid to do more than lip service for his base during an elongated presidential campaign… are quite busy pushing the welfare of teachers while deliberately engaging in a misinformation campaign to the US citizen. The goal is enough box office receipts to maintain the union’s third party hold on government budgets, power, and dictating the complete terms of any government worker’s working pensions, conditions and pay.
This is an ambitious, two act, talking points play with one hidden unholy alliance finale.
1: Talking point 1: Eliminating collective bargaining for the few US workers that are public sector is endangering “workers rights”, and negatively all the rights of us who are not government employees. Thus, the “public”…(meaning we peons without the taxpayer pensions) fully support the unions’ efforts, and
2: Talking point 3: WI’s pension plan isn’t in jeopardy, the collective bargaining rights don’t affect budgets, and Walker is playing a nefarious political game to forever banish public sector unions from the face of the Earth.
Unholy alliance: Progressive elected officials, the Democratic Socialists of America and an elected POTUS with a powerful bully pulpit and an established grassroots “community organizing” lynch mob.
Do we have the beefs and accusations down now?
It seems so simple on the surface. Do workers have a right to have a 3rd party representative bargain for reasonable working conditions, pensions and wages on their behalf? Generally, the US citizen would find no objection with this. But, the devil lies in the details, doesn’t it?
Fact is, since only 11.9% of all American workers are a member of any union – public or private – in 2010, it can be said that the understanding of collective bargaining agreements by public at large, and it’s effect on their personal wallets, is somewhat lacking.
This is proven in the Dick Morris poll in Wisconsin this past week, where that question was asked two distinctly different ways.
On the issue of limiting collective bargaining to wage and benefit issues, however, they break with the Governor, opposing the proposal by 41-54.
If the issues to be taken off the bargaining table are related to giving schools flexibility to modify tenure, pay teachers based on merit, discharge bad teachers and promote good ones, however, they support such limits on collective bargaining by 58-38.
So much for Trumka and the lib/prog media machine. They hold up signs and scream “workers rights” before cameras and on the talking head circuit, and on the other hand deliberately misinform the public as to just what collective bargaining really constitutes. Instead – banking on emotional catch phrases – they deliberately keep the American taxpayer “barefoot and pregnant” to it’s effect on taxes, the quality of education, teacher tenure and contracts, hiring and firing practices, etc.
The ultimate chutzpah becomes when they ironically use educators, themselves, to deliberately misinform the public.
Public sector collective bargaining is an entirely different matter than private sector bargaining. As the Michigan Mackinac Center for Public Policy said, it all comes down to that good ol’ fashioned, American principle of consumer choice.
But there is a crucial difference between public sector (government) and private sector bargaining.
That difference is consumer choice. In the private sector, if a business such as a grocery store were to negotiate a union contract that specified costly and cumbersome wages and work rules that drove up the price of the store’s goods, consumers could and would choose to shop at a different store with lower prices and better service. This competition forces the private sector labor unions to either be reasonable in their demands or risk bankrupting the business and losing employment for their members.
With government, or public sector, bargaining, there are no such competitive forces. If the state of Michigan negotiated a contract with state employees that established excessive wages and inefficient and bureaucratic work rules, Michigan taxpayers would have no alternative provider of state activities. Short of moving to another state, they could not choose to drive on lower cost roads, support a less expensive prison system, or otherwise seek options in other functions of state government. Citizens are, therefore, forced to pay the price through their taxes, or else spend their days lobbying public officials for change-an expensive and time-consuming process that is difficult for most hard-working citizens.
The Sunshine Review, a wikipedia’esque data source using state data to assess states’ fiscal status, also has a page devoted to the differences between public and private sector collective bargaining.
Public sector managers have almost none of the financial incentives of private-sector management to minimize labor costs. Private sector managers are likely either to own stock in their firm or know that their own paychecks depend on negotiating a cost-effective deal. If anything, public sector administrators (e.g., school superintendents) have incentives to see their subordinate employees paid as highly as possible because their own and their immediate staff’s salaries tend to rise in tandem with those of their unionized employees.
In public sector bargaining unions may have advocates on both sides of the table. That is, elected officials may owe their own positions to support from unions. They themselves or members of their immediate family may be union members. For example, Pennsylvania laws bar school board members who are also union members from participating directly in union contract negotiations, but does not bar them from voting on any resulting contract.
Scott Dilley over at the EFFWA wrote an interesting history of collective bargaining for public sector unions in Washington state. His conclusion points out an ugly public sector union reality:
Legislators may choose to revisit the topics and language of this failed legislation during future legislative sessions. If this happens, the pertinent question to ask is whether legislators should allow a portion of state-funded reimbursements, credits, and subsidies to be redirected to a union, only to have that union lobby for increased funding for program costs.
Legislators already have the power to control the funding for these social and administrative obligations. Diverting scarce funds to a third-party middleman is not an efficient solution to funding deficiencies or a proper role for government.
Why is it okay to have a 3rd party middle man insert themselves into control over taxpayer funds that increase costs and play on political favoritism? In fact, it’s amazingly hypocritical for the political aisle, railing about “special interests”, to thrust such power into the hands of union “special interests”.
While the WI debate centralizes around the plight of teachers, I can honestly say that education is of paramount importance in this issue. Because it is only after the American workers become educated to this ugly truth about public sector unions that the tide changes from support for the mob in the streets, thwarting states rights and democracy for a larger agenda, to a more emphatic “no way, Jose”.
But wait… there’s *more*!
Not only are these 3rd party negotiations offensive, but many of them take place behind closed doors. As EFFWA noted in 2007, the transparency of public sector union bargaining is a problem. WI was one of nine states that had closed bargaining session. Fifteen more states had varying degrees of restricted public scrutiny, depending on choice by government or the other party. Only eleven states allowed some form of public access to the bargaining negotiations.
Redstate’s “LaborUnionReport blogger did a Dec 2010 article about the ticking time bomb of manipulated pension funding reporting, and the unions’ attempt to cover up attempts at transparency… which brings me to …
Just how are these public sector pension plans funded? An oft referenced study by Robert Novy-Marx and Joshua D. Rauh from Northwestern in the fall of 2009 gives us the answer…. It’s a combination of partial pay in by the workers, and an investment of the pension assets. All of this makes the projections and certainly of pension funding and liabilities a Russian Roulette, tied to stocks and investments.
As the Kellog study noted in it’s Conclusion, the stock decline made the pension liabilities more apparent, but the state government accounting discrepancies have been off long before that.
The decline in asset markets in 2008 has made the state pension funding problem more apparent, but it is far from being the main cause of the problem. In real economic terms, state pensions were underfunded by $0.8 trillion even in 2005, when they appeared fully funded according to government accounting standards. Our analysis has several implications for government accounting standards and public policy.
Each state plan currently reports only one actuarial number for its pension liability. This number is of limited usefulness, because it is based on a number of ingredients that are subject to substantial discretion. At a minimum, states should be required to report liabilities under several pre-specified discount rates, such as Treasury interest rates and interest rates on taxable municipal bonds. States should also be required to report the sensitivity of the pension liability estimate to different assumptions. Better still, states could be asked to report projected annual cash flows from accrued and projected pension benefits, which are a key component to calculating their liabilities, thus allowing analysts to apply their own assumptions or to use standardized assumptions across states.
Does that sound like a mouthful of data? Let’s bring it to a simpler analysis, and based on the central state at hand… Wisconsin.
Wisconsin’s statewide pension system for public employees may not be as well-funded as the state reports, with a new study estimating it could be as much as $10.9 billion short in meeting its obligations just to teachers.
While the state estimates that the Wisconsin Retirement System is nearly 100% funded, the report by the conservative Manhattan Institute and Foundation for Educational Choice warns that the amount could be far less.
By using asset growth projection rates similar to what are required for private pension plans, the study found that Wisconsin’s retirement system would be considered only 78% funded. In addition, an analysis that takes into account recent stock market activity drops it to 72% funding, according to the report.
Oh, say it ain’t so… ya mean the government reporting and rose colored glasses accounting isn’t accurate??? And this is the “employer”, in negotiations with the unions, deciding how to spend the taxpayers money?
None of this has escaped those paying closer attention that the rest of us. One of those was Nick Gillespie. over at the Reason blog, who predicted this OK Corral moment back in Dec 2009.
There is a looming showdown in American society between public-sector employees and the rest of us, in terms of job security and, especially, unsustainable gold-plated retirement and health benefits that are working hard to bankrupt whole states such as California, New York, and New Jersey. As with some parts of the private sector (domestically owned auto companies, for instance), basic compensation packages were hammered into place in a very different America, and conferred massive future benefits when politicians were either too stupid or too cowardly to confront basic questions of fiscal responsibility. Do you want to spend your life (and have your kids spend their lives) to pay ever-increasing taxes for teacher, cop, and bureaurat retirements at early ages? Especially while you’re expected to fully fund your own? This is a social contract that needs to be redrawn ASAP.
Any pause for cause for you skeptics out there yet?
As Wisconsin investor, David Dierking wisely put in an article on The Sun Financial Diary site:
One of the big problems running into public pension plans now is the inflexibility of the plans themselves. In the private sector, companies can often change how the plan operates to manage costs in order to reflect current conditions. In the public sector, pension plans can be limited by state law that can guarantee the continued funding rate of plans even if the entity wishes to modify it. The result is that pension plans are becoming richer and richer for plan benefactors and more costly for states.
The other factor working against pension plans is the recent performance of the stock market. Pensions regularly use the stock market to grow the plan’s asset base. As the market has struggled over the past decade, an expected source of plan funding has come up short of expectations and as a result has left pension plans struggling to maintain their funded status.
No sheeeeeet, Sherlock.
Given the obvious fiscal irregularities, the lies, and/or conflicts of interest, just who are these players, and who do they think they are kidding in the American citizenry?
AND A SITTING POTUS
One thing I’ve learned is more than a few in the conservative world have no interest in facts on both sides of an issue unless it contains at least one link to an Obama conspiracy theory. Truly, in some ways many of we conservatives have become that which we so detested in the Bush years… and during the McCain/Palin campaign – suffering a similar malady called Obama Derangement Syndrome. (ODS)
While there are some charges that appear by conservative bloggers that are simply hyperbole, there are others that are indeed overt and undeniable. And right about now, a sitting POTUS, with a tanking US economy, the Middle East in various stages of mayhem, and union mobs taking to the streets in a way that makes a community organizer at heart pine for involvement, Obama is now rueing the moment that his base calls him to serve, knowing full well if he does, he risks his political career.
And the first overt link to his political demise is between the Congressional Progressive Congress, the unions, and the Democrat Socialists of America. But please, don’t believe me… take it from the DSA themselves.
The Socialist Party, USA, in 1956, chose to stop running candidates of its own, except on rare occasion. During the 1960’s, we began to work in the Democratic Party. This is where our allies in the civil rights and trade union movement worked and continue to work politically. We are proud of what we helped accomplish within the Democratic Party, particularly the civil rights legislation and anti-poverty programs of the the 1960’s. The struggle continues.
~~~20% of the American public believes that socialism is superior to capitalism, says a poll by Rasmussen Reports released on Thursday, April 9.
Asked the question “Which is a better system – capitalism or socialism?”, 53% of those polled found capitalism the better system, 20% preferred socialism, and 27% were unsure. The survey did not define either capitalism or socialism, but Rasmussen also cites a December 2008 result saying that 15% of Americans prefer a government-managed economy.
~~~Currently, only a single member of the United States Congress describes himself as a socialist: Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont. The Social Democrats USA (SD USA), one of the successors of the Socialist Party of America, has expressed solidarity with the 76-member Congressional Progressive Caucus, which Sanders founded in 1991. It supports positions such as a living wage, universal health care, and the right of workers to form trade unions and engage in collective bargaining.
As I pointed out in the third paragraph of this post, the co-chair of that very same DSA “solidarity” caucus is House Rep Keith Ellison.
This alliance was, as usual, dismissed as conspiracy when the Canadian Free Press reported of the alliance between the “new and improved” socialist party and the Congressional Progressive Caucus back in 2009. It was equally distained by an American media when Gateway Pundit said the same in Aug 2010.
But wait… the DSA tentacles and direct links do not stop there. Instead they lead directly to a long time teachers activitist organization founded in… ta da… Milwaukie, WI. Oh my… how six degrees of separation is that?
DSA touts Rethinking Schools, founded in 1986 by a group of Milwaukie, WI school teachers “…with a vision.”
Rethinking Schools began as a local effort to address problems such as basal readers, standardized testing, and textbook-dominated curriculum. Since its founding, it has grown into a nationally prominent publisher of educational materials, with subscribers in all 50 states, all 10 Canadian provinces, and many other countries.
While the scope and influence of Rethinking Schools has changed, its basic orientation has not. Most importantly, it remains firmly committed to equity and to the vision that public education is central to the creation of a humane, caring, multiracial democracy. While writing for a broad audience, Rethinking Schools emphasizes problems facing urban schools, particularly issues of race.
Throughout its history, Rethinking Schools has tried to balance classroom practice and educational theory. It is an activist publication, with articles written by and for teachers, parents, and students. Yet it also addresses key policy issues, such as vouchers and marketplace-oriented reforms, funding equity, and school-to-work.
~~~At a time when racial and class inequalities are growing in our country, we believe that any vision of schooling must be grounded in “the common school.” Schools are about more than producing efficient workers or future winners of the Nobel Prize for science. They are the place in this society where children from a variety of backgrounds come together and, at least in theory, learn to talk, play, and work together.
Schools are integral not only to preparing all children to be full participants in society, but also to be full participants in this country’s ever-tenuous experiment in democracy. That this vision has yet to be fully realized does not mean it should be abandoned.
There are many reasons to be discouraged about the future: School districts nationwide continue to slash budgets; violence in our schools and cities shows no signs of abating; attempts to privatize the schools have not slowed; and the country’s productive resources are still used to make zippier shoes, rather than used in less profitable arenas like education and affordable housing.
Is it any surprise that this is a group who considers evaluations of students, as a reflection of teacher quality, unfair? If, as the Daily Caller reports, it is a mandate to teach labor union history in Wisconsin schools, Rethinking Schools no longer seems so far fetched, and the firm entrenchment of both unions and the DSA mentality in Wisconsin’s youth is complete.
Now this shared passion between a community organizer turned POTUS, and his union buddies – not to mentioned shared by long time friend and unrepentant terrorist, Wm Ayers – has come to a head at a most inconvenient political time. For while his Democratic Socialist of America and progressive elected base calls, he cannot afford to answer, and maintain the powerful lifestyle to which he has become addicted.
Vietnam era Navy wife, indy/conservative, and an official California escapee now residing as a red speck in the sea of Oregon blue.
Farrakhan: Mideast uprisings will come to US
http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/news/local/chibrknews-farrakhan-mideast-uprisings-will-come-to-us-20110227,0,1665375.story
That message from “just another Guy in Obama’s Neighborhood…” Equally as intent on Revisioning America” as Ayers, Dohrn, and Wright …the Chicago Connection
Democrat Socialists of America, the unions and the Congressional …: Because it is only after the American work… http://bit.ly/ff3scU
Democrat Socialists of America, the unions and the Congressional Progressive Caucus beckon to Obama | Flopping Aces – http://bit.ly/i9Dq0t
Wow! Great Article! At every one of these so called protests, if one looks closely enough we see the Hammer and Sickle displayed openly. Yet the MSM chooses to ignore that simple fact. Well done Mata!!!
He can always use the “Bo chewed up my comfortable shoes excuse. Ellison and Trumpka may be somewhat pleased to be able to pass that on….or, any other excuse once they realize they aren’t going to drag him into the fray unless or until they can reverse the polls.
The Socialist Party USA admits it folded into the dem party and lately I’ve noticed the Communist Party posting their support for Wisconsin’s concientious objectors in comment sections. It appears to be somewhat of a form letter type message that I’ve never seen them so boldly post on any issue before. Kind of makes me wonder if they think they are helping or hurting, purposely btw.
The level of vitriol is also much more extreme than ever before, are the unions encouraging people to flood the boards using the same behavior that appears so “attractive” on the streets? I read through 19 pages of comments from a Green Bay paper last night, pretty sad stuff and some of it was from teachers, so they said. What they lacked in understanding the situation(or misinformation), they made up for it in hate, the same hate that’s spilling out into the streets in the protests. They don’t seem to be to discouraged by cell phones and cameras, quite a bit of nasty footage out there that can’t possibly help their cause.
Now Farrakhan is telling us it’s going to be like the ME in our streets and the police in Madison are saying they will not obey a command to clear the Madison Capital. What a mess.
Excellent posting Mata, will have to read this one a couple of more times so I get everything. Thank you!
I’m going to paraphrase from the most detailed and comprehensive studyof “Inside The Third Reich”- Albert Speer. Hitler stated ” I will rid Germany of its 30 political parties” and Goering mused ” I like the revolution part and not the idealogical mish mash”. The Nazis needed political coalitions to obtain their political will and couldn’t get them. As Minister President of Prussia, Goering would lead the Nazi stampede out of the Reichstag. Von Papen( catholic conservative) lost his government that way. Reforms were lost that way. Later, Hitler achieved maximum power when President von Hindenberg died. US loans(irony) after the 1928 crash were called. Hyperinflation and semi annual general elections doomed the Weimar Republic. Nazi collaborator, George Soros, must be proud of what’s happening today.
FLEEBAGGERS = NAZI TACTICS
@Mata
I have posted this elsewhere, mostly in response to Greg’s assertion that we conservatives are being disingenuous about our linking unionism to socialism, but your article here seems the perfect place to post it again.
http://www.marxists.org/archive/kautsky/1901/04/unions.htm
Karl Krautsky was a German-born Marxist theoritician and a significant figure in the International Socialist movement.
http://www.marxists.org/archive/murphy-jt/1936/xx/tradeunions_and_socialism.htm
How about Chicago electing a Socialist for the head of their teacher’s union?
http://socialistworker.org/2010/06/14/new-day-for-chicago-teachers
How about words from the AFL-CIO itself?
http://aflcio.org/aboutus/thisistheaflcio/ecouncil/ec08042010a.cfm
How about the NEA’s own Mission statements?
We could delve into numerous other union mission statements and find language relative to socialist action by these groups, but I don’t want to bore anyone. Mata’s original posting was quite lengthy by itself, although I did find it a good read, and quite informative. Thank you Mata.
There’s been no secret about the socialists/communists and the Unions alliance.
See the last two photos from this collection taken in Madison, Wisconsin.
The idea of swooping into any potential power vacuum is an old one.
It is happening worldwide right now.
Here, in Madison, and in other labor union fights, it is happening from the further Left.
One of the things that is coming out of this is just how badly our public education system has failed. The cost per student continues to increase, http://www.edweek.org/rc/articles/2009/01/21/sow0121.h27.html
yet the results are abysmal. If I had the money that is spent on my child’s public education, I could send him to one of the finest private schools in my area. That is what needs to happen. Everyone needs to be given vouchers and allowed to send their child to the school of their choice, be that public or private school.
A very good and in-depth post! Thank you!
@johngalt, stellar supporting fodder, and my thanks for the repost here.
To the rest of you who pounded thru a very long post, my thanks. I build these things up, collecting tidbits of news over time, and at the moment when I put together a post, it’s hard to get everything in without it resembling a novel. So I thank you for your patience and focus.
INRE Obama and his likely conflict of “community organizer” roots vs astute politician, his chickens… er, words and promises… from the campaign trail in 2007 are coming home to roost.
Below, at the end of this video, are the promises of then candidate Obama at a campaign rally in Spartanburg, SC on Nov 3rd, 2007.
….. oops
Words… just words as usual.
@Aqua:
“One of the things that is coming out of this is just how badly our public education system has failed.”
. . . . Absolutely right. Union leadership has no interest in the “education” of our youth. While there is a percentage of teachers who cares, the leaders seek increased power at the political level. With increased influence, comes control of “oversight.”
Union leadership has been able hide its books from its own constituents, and from any prying public eyes. If the membership knew that the coffers were EMPTY, it might form a different perspective on its management. No one knows the full extent of the theft and pilfering of the cash that has occurred through much of the past century. Even the leaders don’t care, as long as each one “get’s his.” The teachers union leadership can teach the teamsters a few things, and the teamsters have always kept three sets of books – two to show (depending on the audience) and one to . . . well the third is not a book so much as it is evaporated cash.
The day of reckoning is around the corner as Baby Boomer teachers (and other workers) head into retirement in ever greater numbers, and realize that they were skunked.
Union leadership knows that. It is preparing to gain as much control over political levers (read BAILOUT) as it can before the membership storms its towers. With the Bully Pulpit, union leadership can also deflect blame and obfuscate.
….. Well done Mata.
@Missy, I think this video from the linked article you sent to me off forum deserves to be run here.
Communists, imported from Chicago, join the Wisconsin protests.
Democrat Socialists of America, the unions and the Congressional Progressive Caucus beckon to Obama http://bit.ly/dEGJfq #tcot #teaparty
@ Mata…She supports the most Oppressive Regime that I have seen in the US in my Lifetime.
Great Clip. The Chicago Connection again. Every Major US City seems to have them. Every College and University town has them thicker than fleas on an Arkansas hound dog. Some are Tenured. The Secondary Educational World in the US finds them to be assets for some peculiar reason. They are the Foot Soldiers of Marxism and the modern day Fellow Travelers. Embedded in the Infrastructure and part of the Political Apocalypse that if allowed the opportunity can destroy the Republic faster than an outbreak of Bubonic Plague. Useful Idiots but necessary to the Movement. More dangerous than Islam and a far greater Threat.
For some more depth historically — look up and research the IWW — founded in Chicago 1904 by a group of the usual socialist/communist A-Holes and instrumental in many violent labor related incidents. — Still active and still headquartered in Chicago — have been recently allied with ACORN — which probably also means they are likely connected with SEIU and the imposter in chief. Look up the Centrailia, WA massacre — the wikipedia version is very detailed and probably relates most known facts — educational to read tho — you have to do a little reading between the lines in order to step around the puffy parts — a fair amount of whitewashing and “victimization of the IWW” BS — but a careful reading brings out some very good information – esp re: the fact that all the IWW goons were armed and laying in ambush — by their own admission — and that the American Legionaires were wholly unarmed — this incident occurred at a 1919 Armistice Day parade on Nov 11.
As the banner at the top of the Seige of Vienna blog states — “this is just another battle in a very long war”
You always have to watch the ”other hand” when a magician is at work.
Obama is somewhat of a magician.
Look how he distracts us with talk (on again, off again) about public employee unions.
What’s he really up to?
Look at PRIVATE employee union actions.
He’s been making rulemaking changes the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB).
These changes could open the way for labor bosses to burrow into private companies with “mini-unions” built around small clusters of employees!
Under the current system, organizers must gain support from over 50 percent of an entire storewide bargaining unit.
However, the legal reasoning at work in the Specialty Healthcare and Rehabilitation Center of Mobile case makes it possible for
just 10 pharmacy workers,
or 15 auto shop workers,
or 20 loading dock personnel
to all form separate unions.
Employers would have to negotiate separate contracts with each group, while losing the flexibility to reassign workers to different jobs within the organization.
SEIU has pushed for these rulemaking changes that would make it possible for any number of workers to unionize regardless of job classification.
James Sherk, a labor expert with the Heritage Foundation, said. “But this idea that the NLRB should recognize unions that don’t represent a majority of workers should be a major point of concern. The idea here is to narrowly define bargaining units when organizers know they cannot get a majority of workers and it should not be permitted.
Glenn Spencer, executive director of the Workforce Freedom Initiative with the Chamber of Commerce, said, “This would give a major advantage to union organizing within nonunion companies. It is difficult to overstate how damaging this could be for the private sector and for business owners.”
The decision comes after March 22nd.
Farrakhan is a registered terroist in this Country..he has been under alleged watches form many agencies..the AG can set in and “help the black pather’s as innocent walkers in the name of islam.
Are you forgetting that in 1936 Time Mag. named Hilter..”man of the year” just as the named obi..what a joke.
One must never forget that people like Farraknhan, King and the host of others, had a cheer leading team that prepped an audience..You miss the audience preperation on tv and news bleeps..Oh! How quickly the American people forget. If one looks at history, Roman’s, China and the teaching of Moa, Hitler and the propaganda mills in this country follow the same tune “empty the minds and fill the belly”..
Need to read a great book esp. chapters 6 and 8 in the book called “The Republic”. Great book..everyone needs to read it..not as entertaining as the Sunday Comics..but a nice book.
What is amazing is that if one lives long enough and has a memeory not washed away with country and cultural propaganda..the theme, the character’s never change…Also need to read McBeth..great play..good story..great lines of mature though and dialog..today is no different…”which witch are thee”
I want to repost something from J.D.Longstreet that he wrote in Sept last year and I reposted on my site. As I said earlier, your post is excellent Mata! It’s imparitive we act now before we lose everything dear to us. What Mr. Longstreet say below is happening noow and it has to stop!!!
Groomed for a Socialist Dictatorship
J.D. Longstreet | September 13, 2010
Groomed for a Socialist Dictatorship
A Commentary by J. D. Longstreet
America’s very own government is systematically destroying the United States of America. If this comes as a revelation to you – then where have you BEEN?
America’s destruction has been ongoing for some time now. But not until the election of the democrat controlled Congress in 2006 and the election of President Obama in 2008 did it swing into high gear and the real dismantling of our constitutional republic begin in earnest.
Today, America is just a shell of its former self. We have seen how quickly a determined enemy of the constitution can bring havoc to bear on our nation as we look back over the months since November 2006.
Like a cancer devouring its host from within the socialism of the Democratic Party and the Obama Regime have, little by little, brought America to her knees. There can be no doubt that America is dying and dying quickly.
Fortunately, there are some Americans who have taken notice of this silent attack on America. To their credit they are desperately trying to alert all Americans to the imminent death of our constitutional republic. These American patriots do not plan to stand by and watch America destroyed from within. They have banded together to make a last ditch effort to stanch the out flowing of the energy force from America’s socialist damaged veins. They are known by many names. The Tea Party is the best-known moniker.
There is method to the apparent madness of the liberal-socialists in the American government today. Many contend they are intentionally making an all out effort to collapse America’s system of government along with her financial and economic systems and then reform them under a strong centralized socialist government which will have the American citizen completely at the mercy of the socialist/Marxist government.
There is a concerted effort today, in America, to destroy capitalism. I have come to believe the destruction of capitalism is an integral part of the plan to collapse America’s economic system and replace it with socialism akin to the Soviet Union style economic system. No matter that it failed in the USSR, the American liberal-socialists believe they can succeed because they believe themselves smarter than the Soviets.
It has become clearer and clearer as the months of the Obama regime have dragged by that the intended end result — if the liberal-socialists get their way — will be a communist America.
So sure are the liberal-socialists of victory they have already begun laying the foundation for their socialist dictatorship. For evidence look to Obama’s “Czars.” Look at the Environmental Protection Agency power grabs. Look at the influence the “green movement” has on our government today. Observe America’s elite in business, entertainment, and, yes, the Mainstream Media kow-towing to Obama’s every whim as they try to ingratiate themselves to the Obama Regime convinced, as they are, that we are on the threshold of a socialist dictatorship in America.
Generations of Americans, educated in our government school system, have grown up believing that government can solve any problem — and do it better that a free market.
As we said above, the effort to destroy America as a constitutional republic began long ago. For at least two generations our young scholars have been indoctrinated in liberal-socialism in our government schools. The masses were, even then, being prepared for this moment in American history.
For the past eighteen months to two years Americans have been shaking off their lethargy and coming fully awake and now — they are ready to fight back. And fight they will.
“D-Day” is November 2nd, the Mid-Term Election. Americans intend to send a message, not only to the Obama Regime and to the entire US government, but to the European Socialist states, as well. That message is: Americans ARE DIFFERENT! Americans WILL LIVE FREE.
In the Mid-Term Election we intend to purge as many liberal-socialists and progressives, as we possibly can, from the government of the United States. And that is just step one.
For step two, we intend to do it all over again — in the election of November 2012 — when we intend to send Obama packing and cleanse the remaining liberal-socialists and progressives from our Congress.
Take it from one who grew up as a free American. America is no longer free. The only way we can regain the freedoms we have already lost and to stop our incredibly swift slide into the socialist sewer is to regain control of our government. It is an absolute must. This is a battle free Americans must win. The alternative is the hell of socialist slavery.
J. D. Longstreet
Contributor’s website: http://csadispatch.blogspot.com/
This reminds me of the Moby Dick passage:
“…At sea one day, you’ll smell land where there’ll be no land, and on that day Ahab will go to his grave, but he’ll rise again within the hour. He will rise and beckon. Then all – all save one shall follow…”
Congress reminds one of a cesspool – a pool of water that becomes clouded and more blurred with time.
Voters run to the polls, occasionally adding a few New, and Fresh faces, anxious to bring new thinking and new perspectives to the large pool of bodies already inhabiting that large pool, (Congress).
Just as the water cannot be cleared by adding fresh water to a murky pool, since the new water just becomes contaminated, . . . so too Congress cannot be cleared of corruption without cleaning it out – completely. Only a few recently elected and still uncorrupted faces can be saved, but only for a short time since contamination occurs very quickly. Flushing is a very cleansing thing.
@Hard Right, who knew you had a love of classic literature… But then, maybe that’s why you enjoy Skook’s works so much, yes?
@James Raider, for a minute there, I thought we were on the Weekly thread, discussing Nan G’s SF low flush toilets and sludge build up! LOL In one way, the lack of cleansing waters flowing thru government elected officials/representative bodies is another “sludge” build up. What an analogy!
@ Mata,
“What an analogy!”
It’s an unfortunate reality that in so many elections voters find someone that they think will represent their dissatisfaction or anger in Washington. The often though not always unsullied object of their admiration gets added to Congress, and surprise, in no time, it becomes corrupted.
Mata; I’m sure this piece hit the jugular of corrupt ideology And tortured some misconceptions among those who read it.
I think the thing that surprised me the most in my research here was the DSA and Rethinking Schools organization, right out of Wisconsin not so very long ago, Zac. But I have to say, the outright socialists have been emboldened by this event, and by this administration. They cannot slink under their rocks and play stealth anymore.
@MataHarley:
In a sense, Mata, you are correct. However, I fear that with the MSM machine behind the unions and democrats that the socialistic tendencies of these organizations will be lost in the shuffle and spin to the great mass of uninformed voters. The best we, as conservatives can do, is hope to spread knowledge here and there amongst the blogosphere in the hopes that the knowledge catches the eyes of some of those same voters. Kudos to you, Mata, along with Curt, Skooks and the rest here for opening more eyes to the nefarious link between unions, democrats and the socialist supporters.
I agree, johngalt. They won’t be slinking anymore, but a dewey-eyed MSM will do their best to sweep the socialist rock dust under the rug. I think we should all be collecting pictures to be a memory lane revisited next year. Then again, this isn’t likely to abate by the election. Lots of states in trouble, and more GOP governors, willing do take on the battle. They may just get so bold it backfires.
And thank you for the kind words. We all tries, eh?
The latest public opinion poll regarding public employee unions, from New York Times/CBS News, 02/28/2011.
The poll questions and response profiles can be viewed here.
From the accompanying NY Times article:
Aww, look he’s trying to use a Poll that was recently discredited as a fraud as proof… again.
Rasmussen:
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/february_2011/46_view_unionized_teachers_as_a_bad_thing_37_disagree
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/february_2011/58_favor_government_shutdown_until_spending_cuts_are_agreed_upon
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/generic_congressional_ballot
It’s when we get to Pew where this so called Majority starts to pop up about the Public Unions, given how averages are worked in Pew’s data and CBS’s data it should be noted that the Majority of support for Unions… dun dun dunnnn, Democrats. This 67 percent of the support, added with the Republican and Independent groups and then divided by 3 (This is how the National average poll data is summed up for Greg’s defense) gives us about 41 to 42 percent. Since the Polls actual data goes into decimals, the factor of rounding up is given into effect to allocate the typical margin of error of about 1 to 3 percent. It kinda hinders the whole… “Majority” thing when Republicans and Democrats each have only about 35 to 40 percent of the American population while independents consist of the remaining voting block in this nation. As such this whole poll seems bunk given how Independents are nearly split evenly against and for Unions and how Republicans are overwhelming against Union’s argument. And let’s not even go into Age brackets, as that doesn’t seem to break down the political association of people in each age bracket who was polled giving a highly seriously questionable data set that seems weighted towards one side of the argument.
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1910/poll-wisconsin-unions-favored-governor-scott-walker-president-obama-gop-leadership-government-shutdown
@MataHarley:
It’s been a while since I read them and much has faded from memory, I still recall certain pieces.
Mata, I don’t know how anyone couldn’t enjoy Skook’s writing. I can say it seriously appeals to the Irish side of my lineage that loves a good story.
And on the side notes, this is the same CBS who ignored the overwhelming National support of the 1070 Bill in Arizona and ignored their own non-scientific polling data over the issues but are trumping up another poll that is as questionably skewered in sampling population as a legit argument over Union debate in intrastate affairs.
http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/brent-baker/2011/03/01/cbs-suppressed-public-support-arizona-law-eager-hype-public-disagreemen
While the bill 1070 could force the Federal Government to actually enforce Immigration laws on the National scale and is easy to understand National interests in that matter, the current bill in WI in debate over WI intrastate Public Employee Pensions and the like only effect WI citizens. It is interesting to note that various Pro-Union groups from various different States are trying to manipulate the Sovereign status of the State by imposing external factors to the State Government’s affairs, as per example urging the White House to flex Federal control over WI Senate and Governorship. While some opponents can say the same about TEA party goers at the moment, most out of State TEA party goers much to the chagrin of their critics are not trying to forcefuly change State laws to fit Union needs in contrast to their Union rivals . The fears of these Union groups is that various Lawmakers in their own home States whose almost as strapped for cash as WI may choose the same path if their respective district constituents voluntarily elected these lawmakers to make such actions.
@Greg:
Not that it matters to someone like you, who clearly isn’t interested in telling the truth about anything, but the CBS poll you linked is skewed so far to the union side of things as to make it completely irrelevant. It’s almost like they compiled the results they wanted and then conducted the poll, discarding those responses that didn’t fit their agenda.
Of the poll respondents:
-36 identified themselves with Democrats
-26 identified themselves with the GOP
-31 identified themselves as independent
That’s a total of 93 respondents, which, in itself, is such a small sample size that it is laughable to try and gauge public opinion on the issue. Breaking down those numbers, though, one starts to get a sense of how skewed the polling really is:
-Of the above numbers, it breaks down as 38.7% Democrat, 28% Republican, 33.3% Independent. In the real world, the numbers of citizens breaks down more as 30% Democrat, 39% Republican and 31% Independent (Using a gallup 2010 demographic table).
-Those numbers could become even more skewed when comparing ideological leanings in the real world though. Those break down as 54% Conservative, 27% Moderate, and 18% Liberal. It’s too bad the poll itself didn’t use this sort of breakdown of ideology to identify respondents.
More poll numbers:
-20% of the CBS poll respondents claim to come from a union household.
Going off current statistics, only 11.9% of the US workforce is unionized. The difference in respondents comes out to 18 respondents, compared to what it should have been, which was 11, a difference of 7 people polled.
More poll numbers:
-25% of respondents claim to come from a public employee household.
Again, going off current statistics, 17% of the US workforce works for the government, either fed, state, or local. The difference in respondents comes out to 23, compared to what it should have been, which was 15-16, a difference of 7 or 8 of the people polled.
Now, Greg, I know your gonna comment about those differences I noted above not changing the overall results of the polling, and on some of the questions, you may be right. However, let’s break down the numbers for the MAIN question as if real demographic percentages were used:
-Of the 93 respondents, 60%, or 56 people, opposed weakening cb for unions, while 33%, or 31 people favored it.
-Let us assume that the self-identified dems and republicans broke the obvious way on this. That means all 36 dems voted opposed, with an additional 20 independents(or 64.5% of the polls total I’s), and all 26 R’s voted in favor, with an additional 7 independents(or 23% of the polls total I’s).
-Now, using real world demographics, and assuming still only 93 respondents, we get this:
-36 R’s
-28 D’s
-29 I’s
-If all 36 R’s plus the 23%, or 7 I’s, favor limiting cb for unions, the total is 43, or 46%.
-If all 28 D’s plus the 64.5%, or 19 I’s, oppose it, the total is 47, or 50%.
46% in favor to 50% opposing is hardly an overwhelming majority, and in many polls is well within the margin of error of the poll itself, particularly when you consider the difference in actual people is only 3-4.
The numbers would change even more dramatically if the correct union and public employee percentages were used to make the case, even to the point of, in my estimation, breaking even with one another.
Greg, the next time you want to run a post touting a poll here, you might want to, you know, actually look at the data presented and how it differs from the real world.
John, you should know by now Greg is only concerned with spreading dem propaganda. That’s why he rarely defends his posts.
Well done, John Galt #32.
@Mr. Irons, #29:
Apparently the New York Times/CBS News poll was preemptively discredited, since the polling was conducted from February 24th through February 27th, with the results and the article coming out yesterday, February 28th.
@johngalt, #32
Perhaps you’re thinking about some poll other poll. This one involved a sample size of 984 persons, not 93. The sample was national and randomly selected by computer. An article detailing the sampling methodology appeared today.
I’m not sure I’m the one who’s attempting to defend a preconceived notion in the face of real world indicators that cast doubt on it. Some republicans are apparently sold on the view that most Americans consider their public servants to be grossly overpaid parasites who perform no useful function. They also appear to assume that most of mainstream America views unions as something akin to organized crime, and collective bargaining as a form of extortion. They will likely discover that those were incorrect and politically damaging assumptions.
No matter to me. The longer republican political strategists run with that line of thinking, the deeper the hole gets that they’re digging for themselves.
Greg, get with the facts, dude. The debate in Wisconsin is about limited collective bargaining rights. Wages are not part of that debate in that state… much to my chagrin since I’d rather public sector was forbidden collective bargaining rights, as well as a union, across the board – as that would be left intact.
When you ask a man how painful labor is in birth, on what knowledge does he draw? Whatever he reads, or whatever he hears. He’s clueless. As I point out in my post above:
Thus a man’s lack of intimate knowledge of labor pains (pun in analogy definitely deliberate…. LOL) has limited value in the query
As the Dick Morris poll showed, in the actual state where this is transpiring on the front lines, if the question was generic and vague, the support was there. But when asked if such bargaining limited a school’s flexibility to modify tenure, pay teachers based on merit, discharge bad teachers and promote good ones, the results were a different story.
This brings me to the bad joke – ie the explanation – used by the NYTs poll when describing the results of collective bargaining.
Now what if that question had been reposed, using similar specific issues, such as the Dick Morris poll did? What if they had asked whether or not they believed schools had a right to promote, hire, fire, and decide wages for teachers based on merit and performance instead of union collective bargaining rights standards?
Are you still so confident the support would be so strong? I’m not, and the more people I talk to about collective bargaining, the more I am assured they are part of the 88.1% of US works that are not union employees, or may never have been involved in a union and collective bargaining rights. i.e. they are clueless to what they do, and how it affects the “employer”… which in this case is the government, who’s bargaining away the taxpayers’ money without a lick of transparency. (WI has closed bargaining sessions… where’s your outrage, oh O’faithful?)
i.e., they are just like the guy, answering some phone call questions about labor pains that he’s never experienced.
Then you say:
Well now, ain’t that interesting? Because I feel the same way about you and yours, Greg. The undeniable and upfront presence of socialists leading the movement, the demand that the bully pulpit leap to their aid (now being done, mostly likely, by O’croney, Solis), and the more they sink the state’s budget for the sake of under 10% of the working people in that state, the deeper you dig your political grave. The more these unions types stand up there with overt socialist signs, calling each other “brother” and “sister”, the more obvious the link to such anti founding principles becomes.
You can’t keep the public barefoot and pregnant on this issue much longer, and the more ruckus you raise, the more people learn about the opposing points. Have at it, dude… I’m grinning my butt off at the decline in approval the more people learn. I love it that your obstructionist elected officials run to the hills and openly demonstrate their irresponsibility and sour grapes ‘tudes.
So when you’re in your political grave, don’t expect me to bring flowers. I’ll be celebrating in some Irish’esque wake in a local pub.
Sorry for you Greg, your polls as “fact” are heavily skewered and not collected in a proper Scientific manners, which is key to backing any arguments when using Polls be it politics or accounting. Until you understand the importance of this little fact that you’re using intra-community polls that have no control sample groups and does not properly bracket and sample equal numbers of Republican, Democrat and Independents then your argument is a Straw-man point. As I have pointed out even in Pew’s most recent sample data seems to be faulty, given that age brackets sampled were not equally broken into equal numbers of each political party connection. There is a reason I refuse to use Fox News, CBS, or MSNBC’s various polls because they are not collected professionally and are at the whims of the visiting communities and are subject of being tampered with with means such as Dynamic IP’s of clients allowing a person to cast multiple votes over the matter in support of an opinion. This type of behavior happens to very silly levels in Video Game communities, where fanboys of one platform try to drown out rival platforms in polls with vote manipulation; to think CBS is not skewered and weighted in such a mirrored manner is hilarious.
I even went out of my way to highlight how CBS has ignored other community polls they’ve conducted that do not support the Media channel’s agenda and opinions of matters, as example 1070 Bill of AZ or the enforcement on a National scale of Immigration Laws already on the books for the Federal Government. I guess you just rather ignore realities and use opinion as fact?
And let me add once more I was Union, I saw first hand what Union contracts and antics did to me and thousands of people. Sure it might be easy to blame the company, or this case Governorship, but it ultimately fell at the hands of the Union I belonged to why I’m now unemployed and seeking any job in the market. A few thousand other people feel just as backstabbed as me and even if we get recalled, many of us have oath never to rejoin the Union. Why pay dues when the Stewards refused to represent the Collective interest of the membership in accepting a Company package to prevent layoffs?
@Greg:
After reading your post I have seen the mistake I made. The article I read cited this exact poll, but didn’t differentiate between percentage of respondents and total respondents. As it is, it still doesn’t alter my math by any great margin at all.
-26% of 984=256, identified as Republican
-36% of 984=354, identified as Dem
-31% of 984=305, identified as Ind.
-7% of 984=69, identified as don’t know(crazy as that sounds)
It is still off of the national demographics of 39% Republican, 30% Dem, and 31% Independent. Plugging numbers in using the actual number of respondents along with the assumptions I made above, for the particular question at hand(Question #9 on the poll) we get this breakdown:
-43% favor taking at least some collective bargaining rights away from public employee unions.
-50% oppose the above
-7% don’t know
Still no where near the 2 to 1 percentages that CBS touts.
What’s more, after reviewing the exact breakdowns, the numbers identifying themselves as conservative, liberal, or moderate are way off the national demographic(again, according to a gallup 2010 political demographic poll).
Per the CBS poll:
-36% identified themselves as conservative
-37% identified themselves as moderates
-19% identified themselves as liberal
-8% said they don’t know
Per an accepted demographic breakdown:
-54% identify as a conservative
-27% identify as a moderate
-18% identify as a liberal
If those breakdowns were used in the poll, which would be more representative of the nation as a whole, the numbers would be quite different.
The mistake made in my post above is rectified and the numbers are not that much different, and indeed, knowing the demographic breakdown of the 984 polled, is still skewed towards a result more in line with the MSM, union, and dem assertions.
Now, on to other ridiculous statements you made.
Your “real world indicators”, meaning the demographic breakdown they used, is well outside the accepted demographics of the US, thus making the poll irrelevant regarding real world feelings on the issue. You obviously do not understand that which is why you came here touting the poll as “proof” or something that we conservatives on FA are wrong.
Even conservatives do not think public servants are grossly overpaid, but there is evidence that shows public employees are paid at a higher wage than their private sector counterparts, yet we are asked to pay more in taxes to enable public employees to make even higher wages or even better benefits.
Extortion? They don’t need to extort anything when the unions have bought and paid for the politicians voting on whether or not to give a public employee group a raise, or better benefits. The mafia could only wish they had the pull that the public employee unions do. Of course, you would have voted with the 40% on question #4 who said they would raise taxes to pay for the budget deficit, even as the average “working man/woman”, of whom those public employees are not, tighten their belts to make ends meet.
Finally, it is outrageous on the part of those union protesters to even think they represent the “working man/woman”, or the middle-class. Unions are only 11.9% of the workforce. With 130 million or so workers, that makes only 15.5 million or so union workers. The total number of “working men/women” is many, many times higher than that, as is the number of US workers identified as being middle-class. Of course, being that liberals skew polls to make their point, it’s not surprising they usurp an identity they do not truly represent.
Your move.
Even Hot Air goes into such arguments you make John Galt.
http://hotair.com/archives/2011/03/01/a-peek-under-the-hood-of-the-nytcbs-poll/
@MataHarley, #36:
So, where do I view the incredibly unbiased, neutrally worded questions that the incredibly unbiased Dick Morris asked on The Dick Morris Poll on Wisconsin? Where are the response profiles?
The February 28th New York Times/CBS News poll provides such information.
On The Dick Morris Poll on Wisconsin, we get this.
Did you read what you linked?
…
As was stated in previous posts, Greg, Dick offered up the same question in different terms. When asked a simple Collective Bargaining concept, people were against Walker. But when it was asked in depth, the poll you LINKED contradicts your points. All four parts of Dick’s poll such as Due payments, which I have the opinion should be voluntary enrollment instead of forced deductions, are all part of collective bargaining rights lumped into a contract set. The Unions are trying to make the matter as if the whole process is going to be scrapped aside and the Unions be shut down altogether. They are not, what may happen is Right to Work laws put into effect that allows current hires and new hires into the public sectors of WI such as Teachers able to choose if they want their paycheck be gutted of 10 dollars (that was my Dues per week) or whatever value of in dues out of their paycheck period. For me that was 60 dollars a month, I volunteered to join the Union because I thought along with many other members the Union chapter would represent the interests of their membership and contrary to many people’s expectations that chapter did not. That 60 bucks would have been better spent towards my Car Insurance (7/8ths of my bill) or my health insurance (about 3/4ths of that bill). Case in point, there are many WI teachers who are not being talked to in the general media who has the opinion that they’d like to keep the money collected from Dues because they could use that money for personal reasons such as increased water/energy bills or inflation over food prices which are happening.
And in the case of demographics, he focuses only on WI citizen members. Once again this poll of his is an opinion poll instead of a Scientific poll. As such he only has to list the number of WI citizens he’s polled and what percentages of events. Now if this was a Ras or Pew poll that listed no detailed data, then you’d have a case to point.
Greg… are you this absent minded? The Morris poll link was in my original article for you to click on, along with some excerpts specifically related to the different presentation of the collective bargaining issue. Where were you?
Frankly, I think Mr. Irons was more than incredibly accommodating to save you the effort of clicking on a link, and reproducing it in more of it’s form. Since we’re doing the hard work for you, here’s the intro to where Mr. Irons picked up:
I see providing links for you doesn’t do much, eh? Now, I’m not much on polls in general, as most the regulars know about me. And one of the reasons I’m *not* much on polls is rigging questions to elicit a desired answer.
Morris’ poll, a statewide as opposed to nation wide poll, had 409 *likely Wisconsin voters* (not a random dial nationwide, and talk to who you get…). You might find this a low number of sampling, but when weighed against 984 or 1000 being the norm for a nation of 310 million, it’s certainly a higher sampling by comparison.
Whether you consider it an accurate representation or not, what cannot escape even you… the amazingly uncurious… is that when you break down what exactly collective bargaining attempts to achieve behind Wisconsin’s closed doors, that support swings quite a bit against the union tide. Moral of the story? When the responder is more educated to specifics, they can make a more informed opinion and response.
Speaking of closed minds… er, doors… I see you studiously avoid commenting on the lack of transparency the union demands in their closed door negotiations with elected officials – you know, the same people they paid to get into office. Omission of convenience, perhaps?
Oh yes… johngalt and Mr. Irons? *Stellar* tag team on the questionable choice of demographics in a national poll’s sampling about a state issue. I’d say between johngalt’s and Ed Morrissey’s poison keyboard to the jugular, you’ve got the rigged poll ‘splained quite well. Or, perhaps, for those less tunnel visioned than Greg, anyway.
I do remember laughing at the 20% union members, and 25% of them with public employees in the household. Just how many public sector union employees do they think there are to double their voice? Oh… as I said in the original post and in prior commentary, only 11.9% of all US workers belong to any union… private or public sector. Of that, the public sector has taken a slim lead of percentage over private. Which is why this is the union’s Custer’esque last stand, and why they are whistling to the big dawg on the WH lawn to come fetch.
@MataHarley, #42:
I was looking at what was linked. What I don’t find there are the questions that were asked on the Dick Morris poll, along with a breakout showing the range of responses to each one of those questions. You know, something rather like this. If such polling details were present they would allow me to see what supports Morris’s summarized conclusions. Without them, he’s just claiming that something is so.
Why should anyone think for a moment that Morris’s questions weren’t carefully slanted to elicit the sort of responses he wanted, or that his interpretation of the responses is reasonable? Dick Morris, after all, is about as far from unbiased on partisan issues as anyone could possibly be. He’s in the business of selling opinions to the public, not of scientifically determing what public opinion is.
His summarized results sure are out there, copy-and-pasted all over the internet. The conclusions are apparently taken at face value, with little or no thought being given to what they’re actually based on.
That’s rich, Greg…. LOL I mean, you link to articles about polls here that support your personal belief, and you don’t even KNOW the questions. You don’t care. You didn’t care about the Gallup/USA poll. You just cared it asked if they supported collective bargaining for the public sector…. whatever the heck that means in a nation where some states limit collective bargaining issues, and others completely ban it.
But now, miraculously, you do care about questions? I do so look forward to your next poll touting, and what astuteness you pay to those specifics next time. Or is this a one time thing because you don’t like the results?
Dare I point out that it was not you who presented the Gallup/USA poll’s wording, but me in the links above? Obviously, you were not curious enough to look, and I had to do that for you.
Even the 8th grade reader can discern, without the exact question, what was asked and the results. You need sentences parsed now? You’ll note that USA/Gallup, or other polls, never presented the question in depth, or issue specific. Now why is that, Greg?
The gist of the questions are there in his article. Such a summary is not so very different than WaPo, USAToday or the NYTs reporting on the results of polls, and never providing the links. (they rarely do… I always have to do a major search to get to the source). But you have a different standard now, don’t you? How convenient… LOL Congratulations on some new found curiousity. However I have my doubts it will last beyond this single poll.
You are aware of Dick Morris’ background as a pollster, yes? So you are questioning his article summary of his company’s polling, but you don’t question article summary by other media? Interesting. And predictably hypocritical.
The Dick Morris Poll publication is to come out once a month. If you had read the link, you would have learned that too. duh…. So you just may have to cool your jets for the source questions for which you now, all of a sudden, exhibit some curiousity.
Shall we return to the original point now you’ve run away from with your distraction? Or is it you will do just about anything to dodge the fact that most of people polled are clueless to the ramifications of unlimited collective bargaining?
Are you truly this blind and mathematically inept?
Straight from your own Link, staring you in your face
So we get the following numbers:
• By 74 (302 people)-18 (74 people), they back making state employees pay more for their health insurance.
• By 79 (323 people) -16 (64 people), they support asking state workers contribute more toward their pensions.
• By 54 (220 people) -34 (138 people), Wisconsin voters support ending the automatic deduction of union dues from state paychecks and support making unions collect dues from each member.
• By 66 (268 people) -30 (121 people), they back limiting state workers’ pay increases to the rate of inflation unless voters approve a higher raise by a public referendum.
May I recommend a new pair of glasses and some math classes? The questions he asked were pretty damn straight forward if you’ve ever been polled by the man. I have been in the past. He bluntly asks questions such as they were stated in the end results of his polls such as, “Do you back making state employees pay more for their health insurance?” It’s pretty much a forward and very quick polling system. He doesn’t have time to butter talk and yam yod.
I could go into the 4% plus and minus ratios respectively working negative 4% in support with plus 4% in no support; I could go with plus 4% in support and plus 4% in no support; I could go with plus 4% in support and negative 4% in no support; or I could go negative 4% in both groups but it wouldn’t matter in terms of overall outcomes to Dick’s opinion poll over the questions the numbers are concerned to. As such Dick really doesn’t have to break down the political demographics since it’s an opinion set only to scratch the surface of interest of a true scientific polling action to further explore this issue.
And it’s still clear you’ve not understood that NYT/CBS has been exposed as a flakey poll with weighted numbers that contradict the most recent demographic data of the United States. So why are you trying to use flawed material to defend yourself? Johngalt has pointed out with much more detail than I could have the patience of doing to show that NYT/CBS data skewers demographics of the United States and polls far more Democrats while minimizing the Republican group and Indie groups as possible allowing for a weighted average majority/minority percentage. For the poll to be even remotely valid, for each Democrat a Republican and a Indie has to be polled. But what we get here in their attempt of “fair” is a top heavy poll.
There are questions that need to be answered but are not asked.
Among them:
1. This will not be the last election in Wisconsin’s history. Presumably in 2012 the members of the Wisconsin house and senate will be up for election again and the governor in 4 years. If the unions have the people behind them, isn’t it a given that in the next election the republicans will be swept out of office and collective bargaining will be restored?
2. Under Walker’s plan the union would be re-certified each year by a vote of the members. Do the Unions believe that their members who are apparently so well served by the unions that they are turning out to protest in big numbers would choose not to re-certify?
3. Why aren’t the Democrats who have fled confidently returning – knowing that this vote will only be the prelude to them retaking everything in Wisconsin?
Polls are comfortably telling Democrats this will happen, right?
That Republicans will pay the consequences for their unpopular vote.
I don’t know Nan G. The questions that should be asked to general WI citizens, and not those at the Capital Building at this moment, should be their opinion about their elected Democrats fleeing and halting legal processes. Walker’s support outside of the Capital is growing, not declining and this is coming from a very liberal friend of mine from WI that I play Rainbow Six Vegas 2 with. He was elected to do exactly what he’s trying to do now, so his voter base has only been reinforced further and the antics on the Capital is not really helpful for the protesters on the State level. A lot of the citizens do NOT like outside State Unions protesting WI State politics. That would be like Texas Unions going to New York to protest whatever the NY State body wants to do with their Public employees, and I can say New Yorkers do not like intrusion the least bit.
@Greg:
Hmmm. What’s interesting is that the NYT/CBS poll you touted used skewed demographics and yet still claims to represent the cross-section of America, so when pointed out to you, you flick on the crusade sirens claiming that some poll showing just the opposite of your beliefs must show demographics, or you won’t believe it, but you expect us to believe your poll.
A FB friend who is all pro-Teacher Union put up a catchy little bit of disinformation:
This is the kind of crap that is just ignorant, but latches into people’s minds so effectively.
I was trying to come up with a more factual “cookies” example but ended up with something like this:
It’s just heartbreaking that the leftists get to spout crap in pithy little lies but actual factual representations are deadly dull long.
@malize, #50:
“The simplest model is more likely to be correct.”
Et tu, Rasmussen?
A new Rasmussen Reports telephone survey of Wisconsin voters shows that just 39% favor weakening collective bargaining rights and 52% are opposed.