If anyone is guilty of inflammatory rhetoric and inciteful behavior, the buck doesn’t even stop here:
“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,”
Personally, I find nothing wrong with Obama’s “tough guy” tone and confrontational, rolling-up-his-sleeves-looking-for-a-fight attitude and bluster (other than sneering at the notion that he is Mr. Bipartisan/New-Tone-in-Washington). And if one is going to tip-toe eggshells over anything one says as potentially “inflammatory” that will tip a person over the edge into carrying out violence, then anything and everything in life can be considered influential and a contributing factor when someone goes postal or when someone who should be in a mental institution turns violent.
Is Mein Kampf to blame for Jared Loughner’s violence? The Communist Manifesto? His reading of the Constitution? One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest? If he’s read them, then he’s drawn influence from them in some way. We are all influenced by what we are exposed to in life.
Should violent video games and violence in movie entertainment be held accountable when some nutjob has been exposed to these?
As far as political leadership goes in setting the tone of civility, we’ve actually come a long way. I find nothing at all wrong with Palin’s “cross-hairs” map (and as Aye points out, nothing at all unique to her) any more than I do Obama’s figurative language about bringing a gun if they bring a knife.
Finger-pointing blame for Loughner’s violence on Tea Partiers, political leaders like Palin (without even any evidence that he drew any such influence from them), or on guns (guns aren’t violent…man is violent). The buck stops with Loughner. He is responsible for his actions.
Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and her family are in my prayers.
A former fetus, the “wordsmith from nantucket” was born in Phoenix, Arizona in 1968. Adopted at birth, wordsmith grew up a military brat. He achieved his B.A. in English from the University of California, Los Angeles (graduating in the top 97% of his class), where he also competed rings for the UCLA mens gymnastics team. The events of 9/11 woke him from his political slumber and malaise. Currently a personal trainer and gymnastics coach.
The wordsmith has never been to Nantucket.
Don’t be so obtuse! It would help things if you cons just took simple steps . . . such as not bringing guns to political rallies, not calling the president an “enemy of the people”, not claiming he has established “concentration camps”, not claiming he is “a racist” and has an abiding “hatred of white people,” not claiming that a “racial war” is on tap because Obama won election (yeah, talking about you, Skookum). And not using ads that put people in cross-hairs, not elevating every policy and political difference into an Armageddon for America’s children, and not elevating a legislative defeat into the end of the Republic. In other words, it would help if GOPer cons eschewed violence as a means of changing policy (like the cons who said “See how unpopular Obamacare is!” after Gifford was shot), stop conflating their loss of POWER for them (because they lost an election or three and are just not as popular as the Dems and Obama ) into a loss of constitutionally prescribed FREEDOM for everyone.
It is the apocalyptic imagery, the pro-violence language, the threats to use “Second Amendment remedies” if you lose an election, the fear being preyed upon, that sends unbalanced minds over the edge. When you average cons see Glen Beck’s nutty blackboard meanderings, you are entertained . . . I am convinced that 90% of cons don’t actually believe all that conspiratorial b.s. But put yourself in the shoes of the other 10% — the avowed racist anti-Semite, the paranoid schizophrenic, or a marginal personality who is already confused and wondering why his life sucks: what do you think THAT blackboard means to them? To the racist, the fixation on the five member New Black Panther Party and Soros is entirely within their world view that ZOG and Blacks are about to drive whites into extinction, so violence is an appropriate response. To an unbalanced mind, Beck’s postings, with all the arrows, the acronyms, the shadowy connections “exposed” by Beck — it is the rosetta stone of evil, calling for a violent response! It is why you have one nut trying to take out the Tides Foundation (because Glen Beck said the Tides Foundation and George Soros were trying to take over the world), another guy shooting four Pittsburgh cops responding to his domestic violence call (because Obama is coming to take his guns, just like the gun lobby said they were), a guy crashing a plane into the IRS office, killing a Vietnam vet (then being called “a hero” by a con politician) — and now this “mind control” nut killing a judge and five other people in an attempted assassination of a congresswoman who just HAPPENED to have a Sarah Palin cross-hairs put on her and who just HAPPENED to beat a teabagger a few weeks ago during the election.
Yes, cons, there is much you can do, starting with (a) being introspective, and (b) calming the h*ll down! Don’t play the “libs do the same thing” game, and don’t try to deny that language matters, especially to fragile minds. Just change how you are doing things and clean up your act . . . .
If you want to blame someone for using random incidents of violence for political purposes, blame the guy who originated the concept, Dick Morris: How Clinton exploited Oklahoma City for political gain
I agree this 22 year old alone bares the blame and responsibility for this shooting. I was thinking about tone though, and though about what this 22year old has seen over the last 10 years or so in the press and probably at school.
So when he was 12, 9-11 happened. That was immediately followed by the MSM ignoring the attack and the pols politicizing it within 3 months. The Anti-Bush fevor escalate and the steady beat of press reacting to the Democrats push to show Bush corrupt and inept. They failed to get the WH in 2004 so they doubled down with more of the same. At this same time period all the gloom and doom eco-world-climate warming crap is in the press schools. Who knows what environment he had at home; whether his parents provided context or what.
Only to say.. I think the Democrats, and especially the leftists have poisoned the political and general climate in the US since the 60’s. They keep ratcheting up the lies and distortions, reaching new lows in the last 4 years. This guys was unbalanced for sure, but I can’t help but wonder if his tendancies were helped along with popular culture and the MSM being so partisan. And no, there is no equal on the right…. anywhere. The left throw these character bombs around like crazy. It appears this guy fell in with some anti-semtics and gravitated towards conspiracy thinking. This is what we get when fragile or twisted individuals act on the emotion the left constantly puts out. They spout we’re not all in this together. America is inherently evil. We’re killing the planet. Corporations are evil and there are cabals secretly running the oil business and big banks… and on and on.
I pray for the victims of this shooting and their families. I pray that something good will come from this somehow, if only that good men will become intollerant of those who lie and distort and defame; ie, the democrat party.
@B-Rob: BRob… I find your response twisted in logic and foreign from the world in which I reside. Get out much?
12 hours ago the police released a photo of a “person of interest” If this person is connected then this crime also entails a conspiracy. He has yet to step forward to assist the police. @yippie21: http://www.kvoa.com/news/police-release-photo-description-of-person-of-interest-in-shooting/
@yippie21: Yippie There was no Presidential election in 2006. After 9/11 the whole country was unified, Bush had 90% poll approval. Thanks again for expressing your wish that good men will become intolerant of the Democratic Party. Because of course that is what we need most at this time, more intolerance.
B-Rob…you can’t possibly be serious. Just take a short look back the the rhetoric and political discourse, etc…when “Booosh” was president. Obama himself has used such political discourse. As far as I can see…this guy is a nut. I find it hard to ascribe anything to him that remotely has anything to do with politics today. And if you “did” try to do that…you’d be hard pressed to make the point in any one particular direction — he’s all over the place. Hell, as far as that goes, most hollywood movies contain the basic theme….gov is out to get you and/or destroy the Earth…etc.
Secondly…she was just as much a target of the progressive “left” as she was of the Tea Party (right) because of her positions on any number of issues. Immigration, for instance…she was for border control and building a fence and challenged the democrats on that issue…as well as on gun control..etc. She also voted against Pelosi, for which someone at Daily Kos suggested (in a webpage now scrubbed from their site but for which is still available as screen shot elsewhere) that she was “DEAD” to them because of her vote. http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/205766.php
Palin had her “in crosshairs” (politically not literally) because of her vote on the healthcare issue. She certainly wasn’t the only one either. To try and now attribute meanings to those things outside of the discourse and time they occurred in the manner in which they were meant is disingenuous at best and really sick in the context of what has transpired.
Surely, you know and understand that when Obama said go “get in people’s faces”…that he didn’t intend for them to physically assault people (even though that “did” happen in scattered, isolated incidences). Or what about other politically and issue related protests that get a little rough? Like assaulting a recruiting station in SanFran? Or when someone shot 2 young soldiers standing in front of a recruiting station? Where you then..with your arguments? Or when people became human shields, or took up arms/weapons against police? I think it was called “dissent” then…even when it was apparent that there were isolated cases where some nutjob used current events in their own twisted way to commit a crime against “all” of us.
I mean…come on. Lets be real here. Who knows if this guy was even remotely aware of any of these things …outside his own twisted mind that someone or something was controlling him through his own mind…and that who ever that was…or whatever that was…controlled EVERYTHING…including the gov. Further, from what we know even now….he’s “been” that way for quite some time.
And frankly…as I said before…even if you want to go down that road to ascribe or attribute some clarity of political motive to his rantings ….you’d be hard to make a case one way or another as to which direction he’s going…other than he’s incoherent and whacked out of his mind. As far as what could possibly influence a whack job like that in any direction….take your pick! How about some hollywood conspiracy theory that the gov was controlling his mind and life, etc.? A bird landing on his shoulder? But, if your idea here is that we should stop or regulate or filter speech, movies, or displays of discord that have anything to do with politics or religion or anything that could remotely be used by some nutjob with a gun as an excuse to kill people…..I don’t think there would be much left in the world to say or do. You’d have to stop everything. I mean….when someone is that disconnected and out of their mind….how do you even “know” what it is that sets them off? They can’t even figure it out “now”…because it doesn’t even make any sense.
I think the better question to ask in the wake of all this is…how did someone in his obvious, and well known mental condition, and a history of violence and/or violent tendency……”legally” obtain a firearm? And why wasn’t anything done to remove him from society BEFORE he had a chance to harm himself or others.
@yippie21:
Your post is complete nonsense. Bush had a 90% approval rating after 9/11. He didn’t begin to lose popularity until after the stupid invasion of Iraq which, obviously, was botched from the planning and implementation. The Dems won BIG in 2006 and Bush barely held on in 2004.
@John ryan: yeah, typo… should have typed 2004. Otherwise, I stand by my remarks. I do mean intollerance of lying and political smearing. Too many good conservatives think that regular folks can differentiate the truth from the lies.. and too often they stay silent. The left pushes and pushes and throws bombs and indoctrinates through the schools. They are ever-present and will not rest until they destroy the country as it was founded. I’m just saying, it’s time for good people to say no more. In my eyes, intollerance to immoral behavior and intollerance to uncivil discourse would be welcome. I am not calling for violence. There is a difference.
@Dfc:
Pu-lease . . . when did people bring guns to political rallies ‘during the Bush presidency? What libs were calling on people to “use their Second Amendment remedies” if they lost the election to the GOPer cons? What cons got stomped at lib rallies during the Bush era? What death threats occurred? What vandalism?
You are trying, in desperation, to draw equivalencies that factually do not fit. Very weak sauce. Let’s just deal with what we know here and now, which is that there was MUCH MUCH MUCH violent rhetoric and activity now that there was then. Even John Boehner personally got in some licks!
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2011/01/boehners-response.html
Stop trying to change the subject and deflect responsibility. Cons need to get themselves under control and watch what they are saying, lest the less stable among us (whether con or lib) act in response to it. This could be just a warning of worse things to come if we don’t get this shiznit stopped.
@yippie21:
I see you did not address any of the actual documented events that I listed of violence responsive to right wing rhetoric. So, obviously, I get out more than you do, norom.
“Don’t play the “libs do the same thing” game”. Of course you just had to add that. Wouldn’t want to have to deal with any culpability in that direction now would we? Being completely honest and attempting to look at things in it’s complete proper perspective just doesn’t accomplish your attempt to hide your subtle motives. Sorry dude. Not fooled by your plea. Let me know when you decide to get REALLY honest.
@Dfc:
You also said “Just take a short look back the the rhetoric and political discourse, etc…when “Booosh” was president. ” As I listed before, we NEVER had Dem leaders talking about taking violent action. More importantly, we did not have the actual incidents of violence, now did we? Now, though, is a very different animal, now isn’t it? People bringing guns to political rallies, politicians implicitly threatening other politicians because of their vote on legislation, and an entire group of people there lapping it up and egging in on for ratings. It was said before: the atmosphere now is similar to Dallas prior to the Kennedy assassination. This was bound to happen eventually, what with politicians stoking it on.
I find it very sad that folks on the left are so facile at constructing an all encompassing analysis of what drove this kid over the edge without any basis in fact. And what is even worse, in their smug superiority, they actually believe their analysis to be beyond question. They conveniently forget that their rhetoric has been as insulting, violent and hostile as anything they seek to pin on the Republicans. Aside from a few Facebook or My Space rants, we know absolutely nothing as to what this kid read, what he heard, what he thought, what influenced him, or whether he was aware of any of B-Bob’s list of Republican sins. No facts have been uncovered to indicate what prompted his rampage. Instead of pausing for a few moments to contemplate the magnitude of this tragedy, the B-Bobs of the world immediately mount their partisan attacks, blaming others but never accepting their responsibility for playing the same game that they so confidently criticize. I, for one, am tired of the hypocrisy, the distortions and most of all, that condescending attitude that always knows what is best for me and mine. Thank you, but I have done quite well in life disdaining the progressive claptrap that the B-Bobs of the world worship at their “progressive” alter.
Disturber
@Dfc: re the firearm question; it appears that in his contacts with the law, he was allowed twice to get his infractions muted or absolved by agreeing to enter treatment/counseling.
These would not show up on a firearms check as constituted. Same kind of thing with the kid at WV shooting. Was in psych counciling but psych records aren’t checked and are actually made private and separate from criminal checks. So our system appears to bend over backward to make private records of people who have psych issues and yet our legal system is unable to sort them into a differenct pile of citizens. This, in my opinion, is an unintended circumstance (again) of the movement in the 70’s to close down mental institutions ( ie One who flew over the cucoo’s nest) and push all those people into the general society and jail. So unless they hurt themselves or someone else, they fall through the cracks. Gun control isn’t the answer , it’s proper systematic culling of individuals from eligibility via flags from mental health agencies/doctors/treatment programs in addition to criminal background checks. If someone is flagged, then they have to get a judge or a sherrif to sign off on them being eligible to own a firearm. But that makes too much sense. So the left likes it this way… don’t judge anyone’s mental ability, but when they used a gun, demand control of ALL guns.
From Politico:
” One veteran Democratic operative, who blames overheated rhetoric for the shooting, said President Barack Obama should carefully but forcefully do what his predecessor did.
“They need to deftly pin this on the tea partiers,” said the Democrat. “Just like the Clinton White House deftly pinned the Oklahoma City bombing on the militia and anti-government people.”
Another Democratic strategist said the similarity is that Tucson and Oklahoma City both “take place in a climate of bitter and virulent rhetoric against the government and Democrats.”
This Democrat said that the time had come to insist that Republicans stand up when, for example, a figure such as Fox News commentator Glenn Beck says something incendiary.”
@Greg:
Greg, the day the libs are telling people to use their “Second Amendment remedies” if they lose an election is the day I will blame them for violent talk. The day libs are bringing guns to con political rallies is the day I will blame them for incitement. The day libs are issuing death threats because of legislation that cons are trying to enact through the legislative process is the day I will say “libs, you have gone too far.” But that day is not here yet.
You and others here are simply trying to change the subject,which is the fact that a woman Sarah Palin put in gun sights has now had an assassination attempt against her. Sarah, of course, tries to claim that she NEVER put a gun sight on anyone (even after referring to it as a “bullseye” in a tweet), while simultaneously scrubbing the very ad that the now mortally wounded congresswoman was targeted in. This occurred in a state where teabaggers were carrying guns to political rallies where the president was a hundred feet away. Giffords even had a teabagger bring a gun to one of her rallies . . . which begs the question: why would anyone bring a gun to a political rally?
I have posted here and warned about the violent language before. I talked about people bringing guns to political rallies. You cons just laughed and scoffed and called me names. But Greg, the reason you cons are scrambling and dissembling and trying to play the “they did it too” game now is because you know you were wrong . . . and the events on the ground have now shown, in bright lights and wailing ambulance sirens, and crying parents and children, and lifeless bodies and a mortally wounded elected official — you now realize what you cons have put in motion, all because you were pissed off at losing a few elections and losing power in Washington. We are now reaping the whirlwind of the hateful commentary at the rallies of 2008, the angry screaming at town halls in 2009, and the gun toting and death threats of 2010. And until you cons tell those on your side to KNOW IT OFF, nothing will get better.
Outside of your usual and repeated anti RKBA screed, while ignoring your own bunch like Wm Ayers and his beloved wife, I’ll have to be the bearer of bad news. Greg is not a conservative, Billy Bob. But then, since we all know you are reading impaired, evidenced by your interpretation of Greg’s comment, nor do you do your research, you wouldn’t have the smarts toknow that.
Instead, like Loughner, you wander around, emptying your 30 IQ magazine randomly…. LOL
@Disturber:
100% wrong. Obama doesn’t need to “deftly pin” this in the teabaggers: with the gun toting at rallies and the nutty signs and costumes, they have already been exposed for what they are. In fact, what was the FIRST THING that went through everyone’s mind when you heard about a congress member being shot? Yep . . . teabagger did it! Which is why FA started proclaiming”OUTRAGE” that teabaggers would be blamed . . . before teabaggers had even been blamed!
Obama need not say ANYTHING about teabaggers being at fault in any way; in fact, when Fox News inevitably asks him at a press conference to absolve the teabaggers, he should not even respond to the question. And then the teabaggers will complain that Obama did not speak up and absolve the teabaggers of inciting nut cakes, the same way the teabaggers blamed Obama for not absolving them of having racists in their midst. And in response, of course, the teabaggers will issue even more violent language in protest of the fact that Obama refused to say they were not violent.
At any rate, the very defensiveness of the GOPer cons here proves one thing: you all have guilty consciences. As you should . . . .
Sure have. People who can carry firearms responsibly, and not have mass shootings at their rallies. doh!
Well, if the Democrats had to stand up every time they said something incendiary, they’d never be able to sit down.
@B-Rob: Bush had a 90% approval rating after 9/11.
Obama also had just as high rating coming into office…for which is now in the same crapper as the result of the last 2 years of his promises vs the reality of his “leadership” and policies. I fail to see your point…unless you are trying to say…it’s ok to use vitriol , incite violence, etc., against your political opponent or a politician if it’s for the right reasons??
Lardy, @Billy Bob… don’t you ever give up on loser talking points?
Here’s another of your precious, above reproach Dem maps using targets.
Palin, nor Daily KOs or the Dem’s use of targets, bulleye or other target related gifs has shit to do with a defective human doing misdeeds. Give it up, bozo.
@ B-Bob
I do not feel defensive at all. I feel disgusted at people who would try to make political hay out of a terrible tragedy. Of course, one should never let a tragedy go to waste, or should they? But I can understand the vitriol of your comments, for after all, the “Teabaggers” took the House away from you loons. And, I might add, took away more statehouses than at any time in history.
Disturber
What death threats occurred? Is that what you asked?
Well, there’s this one. And this one.
Another here. One over here.
And here. And here. And here.
Now, what was your point again?
Hmmm….vandalism….let’s see…. Yep.
Here. And here.
And over here.
I remember the Republican Convention in Minneapolis. Bags of urine, feces, and nails thrown at convention goers.
Bob Scheiffer over at CBS targeted the blame Palin and teapartier mantra. Nobody watches your drivel and you should retire. More propaganda from the left. The alphabet networks are failing and continue their path to irrelevance. Karma.
Why are they blaming the Right and Republicans for “violence” or ‘violence’ to come? Violence is not inherent in a majority of people. Isn’t it a choice ? Can’t “Normal People” control themselves?
There has been more violence, rioting and destruction after Major sporting events, then there ever was or will be because of: Palin, Fox , Conservatives, Tea Party etc etc Sheesh
Why the hypocrisy, why point fingers and attempt at intimidation then?
When children can’t win an argument with mom or dad, they throw a tantrum.
Our society is quickly infantalizing our population in many ways.
Obama’s push to keep ”children” on mom and dad’s health insurance all the way to age 26 is one evidence.
But for the purpose of this discussion the lack of teaching critical thinking in our schools has led to a population unable to debate.
When you cannot debate but still want to win you try all sorts of ploys.
Remember ”Mother” Cindy Sheehan?
Putting her to the forefront of the debate about the wars in Afghanistan & Iraq was merely an attempt to inoculate/end the debate without having to put forth a winning argument at all.
Remember the IPCC?
The UN and global warmists had the nerve to simply claim the ”science was settled.”
Remember Obama and the Dem Congress claiming ”the time for debate is over,” as they pushed through Obama’s agenda without debate at all?
All of this is infantile.
And, all of it represents a losing side to a debate that wants to win so all debate must be shut down.
No.
Everybody needs to learn how to think critically.
Common lies using statistics:
http://conceptualmath.org/philo/staterr.html
Fallacies of Logic:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
@B-Rob: So all one has to do to get a lefty to shoot another lefty is for a righty to put a cross hair on that lefty ? Wow……. Enlightening ! Who Knew ! You do know, that the Dems also had a map in which they had big red targets on the Repubs that they felt they could go after ? But all be damned…not one righty took up a gun and shot the other righty…..crazy huh !
These democrat on democrat attacks have got to stop.The sweet little patriot who became a victim, is collateral damage in left wing la la land.
@Aye:
Hmmm. I hear crickets from Greg and B-Rob side of the debate. Seems you shut down the debate on them again Aye. Guess they didn’t think anyone would challenge them.
I haven’t had much to say about all of the blame placing, so there wasn’t much to shut down. #12 is some other Greg.
*twitch* If it’s a, “different Greg” then why the rebuttal of a debate that wasn’t yours? *confused*
This comment alone gives highlight of what is the Left’s core, “defense” over this whole matter yet not a single soundminded Conservative has gotten up in anger over anything while in our mourning… till accusations of guilt are flung at us by people with personal agendas to squelch our opinions that vastly contrast with theirs. We are calm, we are attempting to mourn for those lost and those injured, including Gifford (may the Holy Ghost heal her soul). But it is the likes of people like you B-Rob that put us from a state of mourning to a state of Defense, having to prove our innocence in this matter while still placing venom tathered barbs in your comments as attempted insults on our ways of life. Didn’t your mother tell you never to hit a bee hive with a stick as a child? A hornet’s nest? A badger’s babys?
a mental institution why that is SOCIALIZED MEDICINE