…he has essentially denounced as evil and misguided, though in a lukewarm fashion, decades of American policy in the Middle East. Second, he has delegitimized Israel, at least within the context of its current borders. Third, he has by implication suggested that the rule of many of his allies is undemocratic and in consequence, declared himself King of Arabia. He has assumed ultimate responsibility for the political development of the region now. He’s declared it broken. Now he owns it.
See author page
@retire05 you are really exhausting.
I don’t know what question you have man… I probably blew it off because it was not salient to the conversation. I have nothing to avoid from you. Repose your question and I will give a crack at it.
If you don’t understand national security and oil, you are hopeless. Our economy runs on oil. If our 3rd largest source (Mexic0) went dry… that would devastate the economy. And our exports fuel our economy… and Mexico is the second largest customer of US goods. I guess you can’t keep two ideas in your head at the same time. Mexico is vital and we need to fix the border/immigration issue.
And if you don’t understand the value of HUMINT in the heart of the ME, you are also hopeless. Our national security functions primarily on HUMINT from our limited resources, and that of our allies.
Pot.. kettle. Nervy.
@ Mata:
So if there is no peace treaty in your mind, we “don’t” need to give them aid or we “do” need to give them aid.
blast, if you were a Marine, I have to assume you at least have a high school education and have the ability to read. Doesn’t appear to be the case. Just what does the status of no peace agreement between Israel and the Arab region at large… of which there has never been one and, today, less likely than ever… have to do with you accusing me of stating the future of foreign trade and aid status?
blast, what question? How about questions? You have been dodging one that I have asked twice. So please, don’t piss on my leg and tell me its raining.
You don’t answer my questions because your answers would condemn you. It is just that simple. You come here to play your little simpleton mindgames, dashing and dodging, spinning and weaving but when backed into a corner you play stupid. The problem seems to be that you really aren’t playing.
@Mata, Human intelligence is very important, but it helped so much protect the thousands who died on 9/11, or the attacks in Spain or the UK. Your foreign policy is a shambles, failed to protect our country, and is not sustainable and is leading our country into massive debt and ruins.
And you never addressed #167
@blast, oh no, blast. I’m not following you into your insanity. US foreign aid to Israel is a distinctly different subject than whether there is ever a peace agreement between Israel and the Arab region at large. They are not related. Never have been. Never will.
You accused me of saying something I didn’t. I’m calling you out on your reading disability which leads you to stubbornly sticking to outright lies. I’m not playing your diversion games. Nor is your question worthy of an answer. In fact, it’s not even a worthy question.
Mata, given your logic, (or lack of it) we have to support Israel because they live in a bad neighborhood, and you see that nothing will change in a lifetime, but our aid has nothing to do with it. If their neighborhood is bad for a lifetime you would give then aid for a lifetime. We actually have given to them for a lifetime already. At some point we have to stop the dole to both sides.
And to the rest of your comment, I hear uncle…
Not surprising someone as delusional as you, and diving into every rabbit hole possible to escape your own comments, would hear imaginary voices.
retire05, I asked what was your question or questions. Most of what you say is pretty convoluted, so if you want to find something to condemn me on, have at it. Ask them or keep your mouth shut about it.
@ Mata… does laughing out loud by myself make me crazy when I read your last comment? LOL
Naw… might be the only sane reaction and comment you’ve made on this entire thread.
@ mata,
Haha…
You guys are making valiant and intelligent efforts, but trying to argue facts, with reason, never goes across with these libs. Pointless.
They truly are different.
Esd
blast, try my post, #128. You will find the questions there. Unless laziness is as equal to your personality as is dishonesty.
And don’t ever tell me to shut up again. And yes, I condemn you for being a dishonest, lying bastard. If you were a Marine, which I doubt, I bet they celebrated the day you mustered out.
Or did you muster out on a blue discharge?
@retire (#162):
I’ve carefully reviewed the history of the relationships between Palestinian Arabs and Jews, and I don’t agree with you that I have in anyway misrepresented this.
These are my sources:
http://www.h-net.org/~fisher/hst373/readings/goldschm.html
Above author’s website:
http://www.personal.psu.edu/axg2/index.html
http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_the_reasons_for_the_conflict_between_the_Jews_and_Arabs
http://www.wwco.com/religion/israel.php
As to another matter, thank you for clarifying and presenting the other side of the story concerning the Texas War for Independence. I did learn something from this otherwise unpleasant exchange.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
openid, perhaps you should stick with what you know. History is obviously not your forte.
Weisenthal? Does that mean “self loathing Jew”?
Here is a link that contains the UN resolution that established Israel and was supposed to have established an Arab state, which was rejected by the Arabs, including a map of the way the land was supposed to have been split up. Perhaps this can clarify some of the history that is in dispute. FYI, I am not Jewish.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/parttoc.html
another vet hi, you did it again, thank you , very interesting,to know that the ARABS wanted to bring many ARABS at the time tohave a break in to the JEWISH POPULATION,
that tell me they where not happy and they never will be, so they will forever live and die unhappy,
as oppose to the JEWISHS ARE USING THEIR COUNTRY LIKE A TREASURE OF GRAPES AND HONEY,
WITH MARVELOUS RESULTS IN A STILL VERY SHORTH TIME BETWEEN THE TIME OF EMIGRATION AND TODAY, MAKING THEIR NEIGHBORD BLACK WITH ENVY.
AND HATE
@another vet:
Terrific page.
I was looking at photos of what is now Israel from when the Ottoman (Islamic) empire ruled over it.
There were Jews as well as Muslims living in Jerusalem at the time.
But what a contrast!
This video asks:
If the Al Aqsa Mosque and Dome of the Rock are so important to Muslims, why were they overgrown with weeds in the 19th and early 20th centuries?
And here is the PDF of the book those photos are from.
“A Camera Crusade Through the Holy Land,” by Dwight L. Elmendorf.
It is pretty obvious that the so-called 3rd most important holy place of Islam wasn’t cared about one whit before the modern state of Israel was formed.
Look at those pictures!
It has all been a PR campaign from 1948 onward to simply wipe Israel off the map.
If Muslims ever do get control of that land mass it will be destroyed just like the Gazans destroyed the greenhouses they were given when Israel left Gaza a few years ago.
@retire05: Don’t worry retire, he studiously ignored my comments, #103 because it doesn’t fit his narrative that if we would just slap Israel in the face, then them poor old misunderstood muslim terrorists would be soooo nice to us.
@blast for brains – I would try to see things your way on this issue, but I just can’t get my head that far up my azz…
retire05, you are an ass. Only since I said I would address your questions will I at this point. Outside of that you are a f-n ass and I have no use for you for the personal attack.
Do you think that Israel has a right to exist? I have answered that question (“Unless laziness is as equal to your personality as is dishonesty”- imitating you).
What borders do you think Israel should have? That remains to be seen, it has to be agreed between the parties.
Do you believe there should be a Palestinian state and if so, why? (and don’t give me that “human rights” b/s) There should be as the table has been set already for this and denying them a “state” would continue this stalemate.
Where were the Palestinian borders in 1948? Why don’t you google “green line (1949)” for the borders following the 1948 War, or google UN Partition 1947.
Do you believe Muslims will stop attacking Israel if there is a legitimate Palestinian state? I think once a plan is adopted (with general support of the people of both sides) the level of attacks will drop. That does not preclude lone wolfs or others who might continue.
Your question about Muslims attacking Austria… ummm, are you speaking about the Ottoman wars in Europe in 1500 – Siege of Vienna? If I were you I would be afraid to let my hand hang over the side of the bed… those Muslim invaders and crocodiles are under your bed.
@anticsrocks
You have to look back to 1801? Are you a total idiot? Maybe we should look over our shoulder at the UK… those dastardly people burned the capital August 24, 1814!
As to the rest of your comment… I did not see it as a question, just you bloviating about how you think Mata was right and I was wrong. Fine, you have your opinion. I did not care what you thought then, or now.
blast, let me tell you, that you are the ASS in here and IDIOT on top of you’re IGNORANT
SCRIBBLE, NOW GO WASH YOU’RE MOUTH AND YOU’RE FINGERS AND DON’T FORGET
YOU’RE KEYBOARD. that’s what you get for attacking my friends here who have shown more patience than you deserve, now get lost in you’re ditch
and dig deeper.
@ILOVEBEESWARZONE
Your friends are myopic in their views and have heaped much worse insults my way already. Just because I disagree with an unending foreign aid to Israel I have been called anti-Semitic and a liberal. Funny thing the top vote getter in the CPAC Presidential straw poll who got 1/3 of the votes holds the same opinion to foreign aid. So does the darling of the Tea Party folks… Sen Paul. Instead wackos here want to harken back to 1801 or 1500’s to justify their phobic sense about Muslims. I really wish they got national attention so more people could see how ridiculous they sound… of course they would blame the MSM for either not covering their paranoia.
Oh, and the extent of your participation on this site really shows me how little you have in your cerebral quiver.
Again I will have to correct your continued attempts to tell people what I said, blast. After an ongoing set of repetative remarks, of which I listed excerpts above, I concluded you have anti-semite views. It is not because you object to “unending foreign aid”, as you seem to believe. It’s because you hold one standard for Israel when you decide what is valuable in an ally, and another standard for others.
@blast: You wrote:
And therein lies the problem, blast.
Sorry, but Hamas has already said any plan that leaves an Israeli state in existence is merely a stepping stone to destroying Israel.
Here are excepts from Hamas co-founder Mahmoud Zahar:
You can find the link in #32.
So, are you admitting that Hamas has to be done away with before any peace plan has a chance to succeed?
Hamas has made it clear that they have no intention of allowing Israel to exist….and at least one time the people of Gaza voted Hamas in, so THEY, too, seem with Hamas’ program.
Let’s forget about how ”lone wolfs” emerge, and just concentrate on Hamas’ institutionalized policy involving liberating all of their section of the world from the indignity of having to be ruled over by non-Muslims, namely Israel.
Did Obama say we had to wait until Hamas was gone?
No, he did not.
Obama said Hamas must say the magic words* and then Israel MUST agree to become two small states with non-Muslims pouring in and all people in range of missiles and rockets.
Good thing for Israel that Hamas will never say those magic words.*
*The Magic Words: Israel has a right to exist and we, Hamas, recognize Israel and will keep peace with her.
blast will never admit that the war cry of the Muslims in the 9th century, the 17th century and the 21the century has NOT changed, nor has their purpose for war. When the Muslims raided the Berber lands, they did it for the same reason they now commit war by flying planes into tall buildings. And the war cry was the same, as was the goal.
So blast thinks I am an ass. Coming from him, that is a compliment because unlike blast, I don’t buy into the left wing media that tells me what to think. And to sweeten the pie, blast will tell others that he doesn’t care what they think, yet he comes back time after time.
Here is what I think, blast: you are a left wing looney who takes your marching orders from the left. You support every meme they write on the reasons that the Muslims hate us. You don’t bother to do your own research, and discount those that do. You are uninformed, so you try to hide the fact that you are uninformed by discounting history. Why do you bother with us if you are in such disagreement with us? Do you think you have the power to change our minds? You don’t. Islam is the one greatest threat to western civilization and you refuse to accept that.
I guess you feel sorry for all those starving Gazans that don’t really exist.
@Nan G:
The fact of the matter is that most these ‘land for peace’ deals are wholeheartedly supported by the left with seemingly a lockstep mindset regarding the issue. It is practically impossible to change that mindset.
The ‘Palestinian People’ is a total fabrication by the Arabs, and statehood a guise to attain back what they lost in the 1967 war without the loss of any footing on their part.
It’s a farce, and notwithstanding anything to the contrary, there will Never, Ever, be peace between the Arabs and Israel fanatics who control their respective countries. Egypt, honored their treaty, now Egypt is going down.
The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey shows that 71% (only 71%???)of Likely U.S. Voters believe that Palestinian leaders should be required to acknowledge Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state. Just eight percent (8%) disagree and say this is not essential for a Middle Eastern peace agreement. Another 21% are not sure. (To see survey question wording, click here.)
While considered essential, polling last fall found that 64% of voters believe such recognition from the Palestinians is unlikely.
Whatever the terms of an agreement, only 15% of voters think it is even somewhat likely that there ever will be peace between Israel and the Arab world, and that includes just two percent (2%) who say it’s Very Likely. Seventy-eight percent (78%) think peace between the two long-time enemies is unlikely, with 27% who say it is Not At All Likely.
This survey was taken prior to President Obama’s new Middle East initiative announced Thursday that requires recognition of Israel’s right to exist but also says Israel’s borders should be limited to those it held prior to the 1967 Six-Day War. Most voters think the growing political unrest in the Arab world, further encouraged by the president’s plan, is putting Israel at greater risk in both the short- and long-term. http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/israel_the_middle_east/71_say_middle_east_peace_agreement_must_recognize_israel_s_right_to_exist
Personally, I believe the Arabs will eventually ‘agree’ to Israel’s right to exist simply to attain their objective there….while crossing their fingers….and then go about business as usual….
for doesn’t it teach in the Qur’an that in the war with the infidel, the ends justify the means?
@ilovebeeswarzone:
Ms. Bees, do not feed the animals. Some are meek, and generally lovable, while others bite back. It isn’t the fact that you feed them. It’s simply their nature. Disregard what Blast has said, in his post #190. I find your comments, for the most part, quite inspiring, and ofttimes humorous. Most of us here enjoy your musings on different subjects.
Hey, retire05, gas has dropped to $3.75 at Racetrac here…..started just as soon as O’Bullshit left the country.
Just in time for Memorial Day and for him to breeze back in and claim it is due to his ‘policies’……
@johngalt:
I second that!
Ilike that like button when it concern me,
thank you, I have a hard time staying quite when someone insult my smarts friends whom I find so tolerant when dealing with ignorants or fakers that are trying to promote their desperate falling down side.
@blast:
I haven’t joined in this discussion with you, as you seemed to be engaged with many differing sides at once, and still are, it seems, however, I feel that I should point out a few things here, from your first posting in #17.
You stated;
That statement presupposes that Israel has not made contributions, whether directly to American interests, or indirectly, through contributions to the world, that America benefits from. I believe that you are mistaken on this.
Just a few contributions by Israel, to American interests directly, or worldwide, from which America benefits;
And that is but a small listing of contributions made by Israeli citizens, or companies, of which many have received either direct, or indirect, help, from that $100+ Billion you have mentioned over and over. Whether or not these items, along with the others, are worth that $100+ Billion in aid that we have given them, is debatable. In my opinion, they have helped to develop ideas and inventions that have improved our lives, that is worth more than that amount.
@retire (#182). I would suggest that your 2nd remark in comment #182 crossed a line. Recently, there was a contributor permanently banned from this blog for making remarks of a personal nature which were far less personally offensive than this.
I am really having a problem understanding why some people cannot tolerate honest differences of opinion. My remarks on this thread have been very mild. I immediately acknowledged that I made a careless remark about the history of the Texas war for independence. You provided a more nuanced view, offering the other side of the story, and I did not try to turn it into an argument, but, instead thanked you for the history lesson.
With respect to my remarks regarding the history of the Jews and the Arabs, I was not in any way in error and I provided references to back up my historical narrative. I also engaged in what was simply a thought exercise. No one else has come up with a solution to the intractable Arab/Israeli simmering war of 63 years; I merely offered my own point of view. It’s fine to disagree and criticize. I can’t understand the motivation for the personal invective.
@another vet (#183): Regarding the UN partition boundaries. Again, the analogy would be this: Let’s say that Hitler had gotten The Bomb first. He wins the war. There had already been an attempt by Germany to form an alliance with Mexico in WWI. So Germany (playing the same role as played by the British after WWI and WWII) partitions Texas, displacing landowners who’d lived in Texas for generations. Germany then gets the UN to endorse the deal.
Now, this would all be very legal, but I would not expect the displaced landowners of Texas (heavily armed as they are) to suffer their fate in silent resignation.
I think it is an error to conflate historical attempts by Arabs to establish a caliphate with the specific and unique problems originating in the region which is today Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. On a specific type of multiple choice test, a Jeopardy-style answer would be “an example of something which is true, true, and unrelated.”
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
Esdraelon, the cheapest unleaded in my area is $3.59, $3.75 for diesel, which I use. But have no fear, it will go up again simply because gas traditionally rises in cost from Memorial Day to Labor Day.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
One problem with your comments to another vet, Larry. If Germany had acquired the bomb first, and won the war, the UN would never have been founded.
openid.aol.com/runnswim, I disagree on what you mentionned ,YOU think It’s an error to conflate on
historical attempts by ARABS TO INSTALL A CALIPHATE,
you hear their deathwish and dont get it, the way they are immigrating around the world to solidify their whish to conquer the world by sneaking and lying is you’re answer to their intent not peacefull and not wanting to assimilate, no matter what our tolerante people try to do to help them, they are smiling as they lie, the same way, and cannot respond to pressure peacefully but only by wanting to eliminate their opponant.
openid, if you don’t like being labeled somthing, don’t act like the label. Also, I would think as a [1/2] Jew, you would know more history of the Jewish people, and their homelands, that you seem to. You would understand that the Roman occupiers of the Palestinian territories declared that area a Jewish homeland in the First Century. You would know that it was the Jews buiding cities and putting down roots while the Arabs were still nomads roaming from land to land. The Arabs, as nomads, had no more use for “nations” than did the Native American, although Native Americans were more territorial than were the Arabs.
And you seem to want to ignore why the Palestinians were displaced. It was NOT because Israel threw them out (because some stayed) but because they were told by their Arab handlers that the land would stay in the hands of the Arabs after the Yom Kippur war and they could return. You also fail to acknowledge that the other Arab nations refused to take those refugees, while they stole the lands owned by the Jews, therefore displacing the Jews which Israel absorbed.
And what happens if Israel concedes the disputed land? Will the Palestinians then be happy? Will they stop trying to kill the Jews? How long before they start demanding more, and more, and more land?
There has never been a Palestinian “nation”. Never. Why should there be one now because a bunch of thugs threaten Israel if there isn’t one?
Actually, retire05, as a result of the Annapolis meetings with the Bush admin, the Israelis’ agreed to a two-state solution for the first time. That ought to wound those who think nothing was accomplished during those contentious years of rotating terror heads of Palestinian state, as well as the changing of the guard in the Israeli PM position…. but I digress.
BeBe said it best today in his statements to the joint Congress. The issue has never been whether Israel would recognize a Palestinian state… assuming they could agree upon defensible borders and how to handle both Jerusalem and the settlements… all big obstacles. Rather the larger issue is whether Palestine will agree to an Israeli state. As Muhammad Dahlan said in March 2009, neither Fatah nor Hamas has ever recognized Israel’s right to exist.
As long as this base belief remains true for both Fatah and Hamas, any peace agreement is just window dressing, and nothing more than another step towards the quest of Israeli annihilation.
Because Israel knows that even if they could come to terms on a two state agreement, borders, Jerusalem and the settlements, they will remain under violent attack from the elements who quite plainly state Israel has no right to exist. Thus their demand that they retain military rights of defense and defendable borders.
It simply ain’t gonna happen…. most especially in light of the recent past “arab spring” and upcoming events.
@retire: We really could have had a decent discussion about all of this. I would have liked to discuss the nuances of the history of the Jews and Arabs in the region; no doubt I could have learned something (as I did about Texas history) and, just possibly, you might have learned something as well. But the language you’ve directed my way has been beyond offensive, and I really have no interest in continuing a dialog with you.
– Larry W/HB
@John: Point well taken.
@blast: @blast: You said:
You make absolutely no sense. The War of 1812 was about our expansion into the Northwest Territory, among other things and the Barbary Wars were because of muslim pirates, who attacked us in an effort to demand ransom.
Once again, I must post this conversation between President Jefferson and Tripoli’s ambassador:
Typical far lefty, you cannot refute what I posit, so you try to deflect.
Let that sink in.
And you call me the idiot… 🙄
The point I was making is that your claim that the only reason the muslim terrorists attack us is because our actions cause “blowback;” that your claim that if we only would leave Israel to defend itself and get out of the ME, then they would not attack us, is wrong.
History proves that muslim extremists will attack without any provocation other than reading their koran in which it tells them to kill the infidels. We did nothing to them in 1801, save refuse to pay their ransom; yet they attacked us.
Care to address that point?
openid.aol.com/runnswim,
hey that is a thought for reflexion, HITLER, told the JEWS IN GERMANY that they will be relocate to a better place, they belived it and unwillingly followed their being put in trains leaving every posessions behind, the train’s rides end up killing 6 000000 of them, put yourself in their place now,
and reflect on what OBAMA ask of them to give up the land acquired with the blood of their own braves just to defend themself, they never attacked, only defend their people from those hatefull neighbords,
NOW you have some jewish blood in your veins ,IT’S TIME FOR ALL THE JEWS OR MIX JEWS TO TAKE A STAND FOR THE SAKE OF HISTORY; as you see I am using the same analogy of your comment and put you on the side where you and all the jews of AMERICA should side on, why?
BECAUSE they are being incited by giving land and in the same time , being told WE WILL PROTECT YOU FROM YOUR ENNEMIES, THIS IS A DEJA VU, ABSOLUTLY.
@blast for brains: You really ought to refrain from calling beezy short in the cerebral area, after all, you can’t tell the difference between the Barbary Wars and the War of 1812…
If we were choosing sides for a debate, I would take beezy over you any day of the week. Here sense of humor, compassion and intelligence shines through in every post she makes.
anticsrocks, thank’you, I will send you my bill for clicking your like button,
IT IS ADDING UP, SAVE YOUR MONEY
bye
Larry, your fallacy at @openid.aol.com/runnswim: that you
is shown up by a quote “A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step” (as used in Tao Te Ching chapter 64, by Laozi)
You think you can look at each tree in the forest and say, ” No, that’s just a tree; no forest here!”
You are wrong.
The ideal of re-establishing Islam’s caliph who will rule over all the known world (as it almost did once) has not died.
Every extension of Dar al Islam (where Dar al Harb used to be) is a step on that journey.
Karl Marx observed that, “The Koran and the Mussulman (Muslim) legislation emanating from it reduce the geography and ethnography of the various peoples to the simple and convenient distinction of two nations and of two countries; those of the Faithful and of the Infidels” And added, “The Infidel is the enemy.”
In the Koran, Karl Marx is correct. There is the ”realm of Islam” and there is the ”realm of war.”
That is also the literal translation of Dar al Islam and Dar al Harb.
WAR.
The long war.
MATA, hi, I FIND HARD to beleive the past and future PRESIDENT would ask such a demand to ISRAEL,
It’s inconceveble to think IT HAS happenned, but we know the INTENT under that scenario of deception
@retire05,
You are right I don’t believe your thesis, and I believe your pulling out of your ass the 9th Century and 16th Century issues are in the lunatic fringe, and you are too self absorbed to realize it.
@ retire05… You did not comment on how liberal I am for holding the same opinion on foreign aid as the same person who received 1/3 of all votes at CPAC and was the leading contender for president in the CPAC straw poll. So 1/3 of all CPAC attendees were liberal?
Is Sen Rand Paul the tea party darling a liberal too? You just don’t get it.
@johngalt
I am not going to debate the list you provided… they are all important developments, but not vital like oil. Israel is a foreign country, not the 51st state. It is not our place to be perpetually funding them, particularly since it really is not sustainable forever. As Mata pointed out, this has been going on 65 years already, that seems perpetual already. I am not in favor of just cutting them off, but we do need to resolve this situation and not be on the hook forever. We have enough needs at home already.
@Nan
There is no doubt that Hamas will need to be an honest broker when it comes to any negotiation, should they even be part of a governing coalition. There was a time that the PLO was a terrorist organization and had to renounce terrorism etc.
blast, I’m not sure why you are holding up Rand Paul as the conservative god here. I’m certainly not a fan, and it’s really just the media that labels him from CPAC. But then, CPAC is an odd fringle group on it’s own who has often voted for his dad, Ron Paul, at their conventions. Few conservatives I know see either as a good fit for GOP leadership, save perhaps on some fiscal issues. On foreign policy, neither of them do it for me. In fact, Rand Paul pretty much cinched any credibility in my view when he decided to boycott Netanyahu’s speech today. We all know how he feels about foreign aid, so you and he ought to be two peas in a pod.
However Rand Paul’s office can’t even be honest about his boycott, stating it was because he had a battle with Harry Reid over his offered amendments to the Patriot Act. Really? Now why would he feel he had to slight the Israeli PM over a dispute of domestic legislation?
I consider that cowardly to suggest it’s because of unrelated legislation. And it’s downright rude to treat an ally’s visit to Congress that way. He’s triaged way down in respect, IMHO.
openid, I have read your bio. Perhaps I expected someone so educated to be well, more educated. Perhaps you should add “thin-skinned” to that bio. And according to what you have written here, it would seem that I would be well within my rights to lop rockets at the people who now occupy my ethnic homelands if my demands for their return was not met. Tell me, are you willing to return the land that your house, and your business, currently sits on because it was taken from someone else 200 years ago? And if you don’t return those lands, do those indigous people have a right to lob rockets at you?
Mata, I understand that under Bush the Israelis agreed to a two state solution. That doesn’t eliminate the fact that there has never historically been a Palestinian “nation.”
To paraphrase Golda Mier, there will never be peace in the Middle East until the Muslims love their children as much as they hate the Jews.
@blast:
I don’t really believe you are aware of current events at all, blast.
There is a move to have the UN vote a Palestinian state into existence later this year. (Look it up)
Obama admitted “the recent announcement of an agreement between Fatah and Hamas raises profound and legitimate questions for Israel.”
Palestinians, according to their own polling, don’t want peace.
That’s why they just planned to form a unified government dedicated to Israel’s destruction.
It is set to take power right AFTER the UN declares Palestine to be a nation.
Obama also said, “The full and phased withdrawal of Israeli military forces should be coordinated with the assumption of Palestinian security responsibility in a sovereign, non-militarized state.”
What does that mean “with the assumption of Palestinian security responsibility?”
It means we have to assume everything will be terrific.
Now, there might be a silver lining in all this………….
With a unified Fatah/Hamas government there must be a NEW CHARTER written.
So, will each continue to include their objective of the total destruction of Israel?
Will Hamas drop their objective of the establishment of a global caliphate?
And, let’s say they do (that would be their saying Obama’s magic words, btw).
Could WAR be declared against ”Palestine” once they break their promise?
@anticsrocks
LOL. Yeah, I am speaking of how ridiculous to bring up a beef from 1801… A communication between Jefferson and an ambassador in 1801 somehow holds relevance today? That is just stupid on its face.
blast, in the late 7th century, the Islamic hordes invaded the Berber lands. They rode through the Berber villages shouting “Allahu Akbar”. As they plundered through Christian Turkey, they shouted “Allahu Akbar.” What did the 19 hijackers shout as they plowed jets into the World Trade center buildings and the Pentagon? The same war cry of the Musliim hordes in the 7th Century, the 8th Century and the 17th century. Nothing has changed except some people’s ability to realize that 9-11 was the restart of a very old war of conquest for a religion.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim: I’m pretty well aware of the general arguments the Palestinians have with regards to the situation over there. Up until about 10 years ago I was more supportive 0f them and would have actually been considered anti-Israel. As a matter of fact, back then I would have actually supported what Obama said last week. In the last 10 years my views have changed and here’s why. The Palestinians have a grievance about how their lands were taken from them and how they were in the majority etc. however there is still debate as to who was there first etc. which means it is a gray area. It had been addressed in 1947 and it was rejected by the Arabs and with force at that. So perhaps that part of the argument needs to be re-addressed. However that is not where their argument stops. The second half, which seems to be ignored, is their desire for the destruction of Israel which they have attempted more than once. That is not a gray area that is open to negotiation. It is white and black. You either support the destruction of Israel or you don’t. The second half of their argument far outweighs the first because you are talking about the destruction of a country and its people. As such, I believe my views of 10 plus years ago were wrong and that those who are trying to make Israel out into being the bad guy are wrong. Make no mistake, I believe their attack on the Liberty was not an accident but intentional and that we would have been well within our right to launch a counter military strike of own. I am also opposed to the release of Jonathan Pollard. Those issues however are separate from the Palestinian issue.
BTW, I was kind of surprised at the last source you posted. An “anonymous” who made reference to “Ronny ray-gun”. On a simple college research paper citing a source like that probably would have resulted in the drop of a letter grade. I know you can do better than that!
@Nan G
Yes, I am aware of the UN vote. I doubt it will take place, but if it does you do pose great questions about the joint charter between Hamas and Fatah.
@blast:
Actually, the debate between our President and our Ambassador led to the realization that our merchant marines were being attacked incessantly by Muslim pirates BECAUSE we (the US government) always would pay the ransoms to free the merchant marines and we (the US government) took the loss of whole ships and cargos as simply the cost of doing business.
As that amount we were paying out to Muslim pirates ate up so large a portion of our US government’s budget it became a worthwhile endevour to simply FIGHT BACK.
We created the US Navy.
Our Navy fought the pirates and ended the piracy.
Standing up to terrorism worked.
Appeasement did not.
And we got a Navy out of the deal, too.