Since it’s simpler to keep an open thread for the fast moving story of Japan’s crisis, I’m starting the third open news thread on the subject for everyone to add their thoughts and updates to. Since the event has happened, major networks have sent multiple teams for “on the scene” hyperbolic coverage and fear mongering, while also draining Japan’s precious few resources of food, water and fuel. Meanwhile the Congressional Dems, painfully conscious of their traditional anti-drilling and anti-nuclear plant platform, have begun making hiccups about addressing oil prices. In this moment, you won’t find a Democrat in the halls of Congress who’s willing put advocate for nuclear power.
Meanwhile, demonstrating the power of propaganda, sales of geiger counters to fear laden west coast Americans has spiked. Driving this point home was a geiger counter manufacturer who was almost late to his interview on Cavuto’s World today because he was furiously working, getting out a backlog of orders. According to him? Most purchasers are individuals, living on the west coast.
One nation’s desperate crises is another man’s economic boost. Amazing, when you think of it.
But in this third edition, I want to showcase those we’ve not heard much from directly… the TEPCO employees on the front line, battling multiple hardships trying to keep the reactors under control. As foreign national and corporations flee the nation, the Japanese have mounted a quiet and respectful rally around those they call the Fukishima Fifty. UK’s Daily Mail has more info on their on site conditions, stellar photos from the site, and brave tweets and messages from the TEPCO workers to their families.
Japan was today rallying behind the anonymous nuclear emergency workers at the stricken Fukushima power plant – as heartbreaking details of their plight emerged.
The 180 workers face soaring radiation levels as they make ever more desperate attempts to stop overheating reactors and spent fuel rods leaking more radiation into the atmosphere.~~~National television has interviewed relatives of the workers, who the plant operators insist on keeping anonymous, with one woman saying her father had accepted his fate ‘like a death sentence’.
A woman said her husband continued to work while fully aware he was being bombarded with radiation. He sent her an email saying: ‘Please continue to live well, I cannot be home for a while.’ The workers are known as the Fukushima Fifty because they rotate into contaminated areas in teams of that number.
Another email shown by newsreaders said: ‘My father is still working at the plant … they are running out of food…we think conditions are really tough. He says he has accepted his fate much like a death sentence.’
One girl tweeted in a message translated by ABC: ‘My dad went to the nuclear plant, I’ve never seen my mother cry so hard. People at the plant are struggling, sacrificing themselves to protect you. Please dad come back alive.’
According to the Daily Mail, the workers are exposed to radiation levels of 40 milisieverts per hour, and removed from duty after being exposed to 250 milisieverts.
One of the surprising things is that the workers are painfully aware of the demonization of TEPCO by media and blogs … something that those on the front line find offensive and hurtful. So I leave you with the comments of the lone woman worker of the Fukushima Fifty…
One lone woman worker, Michiko Otsuki, this week spoke up for her ‘silent’ colleagues on a Japanese social networking site to insist that they were ‘not running away’ as the crisis intensified.
She wrote in a blog translated by The Straits Times: ‘People have been flaming [plant operators] Tepco, But the staff of Tepco have refused to flee, and continue to work even at the peril of their own lives. Please stop attacking us.’
‘As a worker at Tepco and a member of the Fukushima No. 2 reactor team, I was dealing with the crisis at the scene until yesterday (Monday).’
‘In the midst of the tsunami alarm (last Friday), at 3am in the night when we couldn’t even see where we going, we carried on working to restore the reactors from where we were, right by the sea, with the realisation that this could be certain death,’ she said.
‘The machine that cools the reactor is just by the ocean, and it was wrecked by the tsunami. Everyone worked desperately to try and restore it.
‘Fighting fatigue and empty stomachs, we dragged ourselves back to work.’
‘There are many who haven’t gotten in touch with their family members, but are facing the present situation and working hard.’
These workers, to me, are the equivalent of our US military… those that place themselves in the line of fire for family and country. Unlike our soldiers, who know that war is part of their job, I doubt these workers envisioned this as part of their job description. Their rise to to the challenge is beyond commendable.
There is a powerline laid to the power plant, which at latest news has been successfully completed. This should aid in stabilization of water pumps and stop the fluctuating water levels that affect the radiation levels. For these brave souls and their families, my prayers it works, and that their exposure will not affect a long and happy life post this event.
Vietnam era Navy wife, indy/conservative, and an official California escapee now residing as a red speck in the sea of Oregon blue.
In a country the size of Japan I would guess that if asked, several hundred well trained technicians would come forward to volunteer for such duty.
I think the only thing holding them back may is the fact that some expertise is needed to perform the task, achieve the goal.
Folks, I don’t intend to make a pun about this but THE FACT IS many, many hundreds of Japanese volunteered to learn how to operate another rather sophisticated piece of equipment in 1944-1945 in a manner that meant certain death.
THEY WERE CALLED KAMIKAZES.
The Russians did it.
The Germans did it.
AND AMERICANS DID IT.
I can dig up YouTube videos of all of them, and there is no shortage of stories in any VFW Hall in America to prove it.
I saw it, right in front of my eyes, over the sights of my gun and through the lenses of my binoculars.
Exactly WHAT DOES a Paratrooper train to accomplish? (“Dropping behind the front lines”, or, “Being completely surrounded and cut off from supplies and reinforcement” are the correct answers).
Suicide mission? Not exactly but the body count sure does rise from the ranks of such volunteers.
How about “Anybody want to be the test pilot for this great new jet?”
Or what about “I got a GREAT IDEA! We’ll put three volunteers in the nose cone of this HUGE SATURN 5 ROCKET, Light the fuse, and send your asses up to the Moon and Back! Any takers?”
The answer is always the same: A resounding “DAMN STRAIGHT! RIGHT HERE! ARM RAISED! NOW YOUR TALKING MY LANGUAGE!”
People are awesome.
Just watch and see!
I used to have an MD who had served on an air craft carrier in the Pacific in WWII.
He knew those pilots who, when their planes were shot up so bad there was no chance of survival, would aim toward the side of the enemy ship.
That was NOT the plan!
These men had wanted to live…..had planned on living.
They should in no way be equated with Kamakazis who went out with no plan to come back.
I am not sure what you are watching, but from what is known about this emergency… it is very grave situation. Should the media sugar coat this emergency? The incident is unprecedented given the type of reactor and the claims about Japan being “so ready for the big one”. We have multiple reactors in various degrees of melt down, potentially cracked reactor containment and add the spent fuel ponds where the temperatures are increasing and the fuel rods are not in any secondary containment. Sounds to me like a very grave situation.
The reports seem to indicate Japanese people do not believe what they are being told, and this company had a long history of lying. It is up to the company to prove to be credible by providing relevant information.
As much as I commend the efforts of the Japanese Defense Forces and the engineers, police and emergency workers at this plant… I think the whole notion of the “Fukushima Fifty” has been contradicted on and off. I am not taking anything away from the individuals who are placing themselves in harms way, but the way the media played up the FF feels a bit like propaganda when you simultaneously read when workers reach 250 millisieverts are required to leave the area. I would like to know the real facts on this, of course again, time will tell.
More blast’isms…
I never said the situation isn’t “grave”, blast. It is, and mostly for Japan. But you run out and go get your geiger counter and masks, and hunker down in the fear that the media drives you to. I don’t give a flying fart.
In the meantime, I will repeat my previous statement from Thread II. The media crews, looking for ratings, should be mindful that resources for the Japanese are limited. They are sucking up fuel, water and food that can be better used elsewhere than to highlight posers, standing in front of debris, forecasting Armeggedon. There should be no more than one crew per major affiliate. Most of them are worthless. I don’t need to see Anderson Cooper, Soledad O’brian and Sanjay Gupter in group shot, in front of a trashed house, wringing their hands in despair with the same news I get from Japanese affiliates or the emergency monitoring new bulletins.
If, and hopefully not at all, there is a major development that affects the nation, or the globe, we will know. And it won’t be from these bozos.
You mean the same bozos I mention above? Everything’s a conspiracy with you, eh blast? Like you can really cover up something the scope they forecast… No, the only ones that are suspicious are the westerners, bent on portraying the Japanese as suspicious. It’s all about ratings and hype. You’ll even note the Japanese have also been criticized as being unfeeling since Toyko and southern Japan carries on. The damage is mostly confined to the north part of the island. Reconcile that, while hunkered in your bunker.
I have repeatedly linked the TEPCO press release site, which mirrors other updates in information. Again, I don’t need to have idiot reporters, sucking up scarce Japanese resources, telling me the evaporating water level every minute without constant power for pumping, and forecasting Armaggedon for ratings. Talk about fear mongering… this is it at it’s height.
Your entire post just did, you ass. Sorry, blast. You know I don’t normally like to simply dismiss someone this rapidly, but you are really an ass on this.
You go find your conspiracies and cover ups, hide in your west coast bunker location with your geiger counter, your food, masks, whatever ever else. I simply don’t care. I have little time for fools because life is far too short. I’m sure you’ll find plenty of hyperventilating “journalists” happy to feed you there.
Ok, fess-up time . . . I worked for 25 years in the nuclear power business . . . I worked at several power plants in the US that are BWR’s with the Mark-1 Containments. I am a BWR SRO Certified engineer.
The most shocking aspect of the Fukushima situation is how tight lipped the Japanese have been with details of what happened.
If anyone has questions about BWR’s I will try to answer them.
Even the Russians after Chernobyl were more open and provided information and photos that allowed accurate technological evalaution of what was going on.
Our Prez needs to tell the Japs . . . OUT with it!!! Give us the details!!!
Where ya been, Tallgrass. And what “details” are you missing? As previous threads have noted, we have the Japanese authorities, TEPCO and IAEA all monitoring onsite conditions that change constantly. Additionally they have monitoring for air quality constantly. We know that the pumping systems are off and on, and that water levels are hard to maintain. Kinda hard to “hide” anything, don’t you think?
Tell us what we are supposed to be missing? That they know the containment containers have been breeched and they are trying to hide it? Isn’t that something impossible to hide?
And I’m sure all of us would appreciate a readers post on this…. got time?
@ mata
Whatever mata, I think the tenor of your post (and your response) was actually very much hyperventilating. I am not defending the journalists that are in Japan, but last time I checked the coverage would have positive effect on galvanizing American, and world support to help the victims. We are using many assets and have a right to know how they are being used.
At the beginning of this disaster I thought you had a pretty balanced view. What do you get some right wing talking points memo to help shill for the nuclear lobby? I can’t really see the point of sticking up for them given their monumental screw up in this case.
I have always been in favor of using Nuclear Power in a responsible manner. The thing is I think they need to prove it is safe. Not that is it safe “but…” No amount of spin really matters. Sympathetic 50, or whatever story is being fed to us. The facts are all I care about. If it takes a combination of verbose and excited journalists, bureaucrats, and engineers… out there is some truth. Why try to squelch it?
hardly. you can link to TEPCO all you want. They have shown a history of falsifying documents and lying… a culture of corruption in their management.
blast… whatever. Keep your geiger counter close, and your CNN, FOX and MSNBC feed closer.
@Tallgrass, #5:
I’m surprised that they don’t seem to have gotten any remotely operated mobile viewing devices in there yet. The U.S. military has a number that could be providing close-up video feeds from places no human could safely go. They’ve been used for inspecting IEDs for quite a while now.
I think the bottom line is: SOMEBODY (or Some BODY, if you will) HAS GOT TO GO IN THERE AND KEEP THOSE FUEL RODS COOL.
The last time i checked, several “bodies” were doing exactly that.
I say “Cut ’em some slack, JACK.”
The only question I have is (Having some inside info about the future “Robotic Soldiers, Tanks and Fighter Jets” our DoD is working on, WITH the cooperation of several Japanese Hi-Tech Giants),
I contribute to StrategyPage, BlackFive and co-host Popular Military
http://www.popularmilitary.com/
Where the “F” are the robots?
You know, to get in there and get a visual of WTF is going on!
I mean, the Japanese have robots to make Sushi!
Robots that make computer chips. Make cars.
THEY MAKE ROBOTS YOU CAN ACTUALLY…………………………………..!
I mean, here! PICK ONE!
http://www.bing.com/search?q=japanese+robots+humanoid&form=QBLH&qs=AS&sk=AS1&pq=japanese+robots+&sp=2&sc=8-16
But no robot to send into a reactor containment building?
What gives?
BTW, the IAEA press release updates site… They receive daily dose monitoring from 47 Japanese cities daily, as well as other perimeters.
Are they all (Japanese authorities, TEPCO, air monitoring organizations and the IAEA) in collusion, hiding something desperate that it’s impossible to hide for long?
INRE the robots… apparently only the French and Germans have developed the robotic technology to withstand the levels of radiation they’d need. And they’ve never been tested. However, Henri Proglio, CEO of EDF, has proposed sending the robots and tech equipment to Japan.
Guess you can’t buy them off the shelf in Walmart….
ADDED: From a 1996 press release on the French robots: (note, French to English translation, which explains the broken English)
It seems not only humans, but electronics, chips and circuitry are also high susceptible to radiation levels. Whether the US military has equivalent technology available is unknown. But I sure wouldn’t guess we’re holding back….
By the way: The USS Providence, a Los Angeles Class Sub is now lurking off the coast of Libya.
(I got “peeps” on board).
(I seriously doubt Gaddafi is monitoring this website).
Lot’s of Cruise Missiles on board that gal.
Just say’in.
Ronnie Reagan sent one of those boys through the window of Gadaffi’s Palace by way of US Aircraft.
Reagan was CiC when I was deployed in 1983.
Reagan, on Libya:
(BBC)
Colonel Muamar Gaddafi residential compound took a direct hit that killed Hanna Gaddafi, the adopted baby daughter of the Libyan leader.
President Reagan has justified the attacks by accusing Libya of direct responsibility for terrorism aimed at America, such as the bombing of La Belle discoteque in West Berlin 10 days ago.
Self Defence
President Reagan made a TV address to the American people two hours after the attack.
In it he said : “When our citizens are attacked or abused anywhere in the world on the direct orders of hostile regimes, we will respond so long as I’m in this office.”
Obama will now attempt a double-bogy on the 12th green.
Mata;
The most significant information not provided is a time line of events. Without knowing the exact initiating event, the failure of what system/s that occurred immediately with the earthquake or within a few minutes there of, it is really impossible to make any logical conclusions of what the current conditions are and what the most appropriate response should be.
I have a lot of WAG’s . . . wild assed guesses . . . and none of them make sense or are anything but WAGS unless I know what started the whole damned thing.
It appears to me, that rather than trying to CONTROL the scenarios of vastly different events the Japanese are only “responding” to deteriorating conditions.
Clearly, there are such vast mechanical and electrical failures that there may be no other alternative.
If that is the case, that there are such total distruction conditions inside of the Reactor Building of these units that they have no choice but to be in response mode then all I can say is that “All Design Basis” accident conditions have been far exceeded.
Finally, I can say with confidence that the combined final effects of all the Fukushima conditions, when all is evaluated and the results known, that the radioactive material released from the Japanese plants will not come to even a small fraction of the Chernobyl release. Why can I say this . . . simply because the Chernobyl release was exacerbated by a “graphite fire” that burned many, many tons of fuel and core components . . . the Japanese plants simply do not have such quantity of radioactive material in all three units that are having problems. Plus, there is basically not as much combustible material in the BWR core.
On another line of thought. The Mark-1 Containment has never been “highly respected” by ANY of the several hundred operations and engineering people that I have delt with. It simply was never a good design. That said, the safety of the Mark-1 is acceptable . . . ok, acceptable means that I would never have used the Mark-1 containment anywhere in the “Ring of Fire” countries . . . just the earthquake considerations alone would have been enough to deter me.
Keep in mind there are some particular operational advantages to the BWR design that make a mix of PWR’s and BWR’s desireable for a National Power System like Japans.
Thanks, Tallgrass. Because what you say of radioactive material released from this event not even equal to a fraction of the Chernobyl release matches the more sane, anti-hyperbolic news reports we’re innundated with daily. Mind you, this doesn’t mean I triage this as a “no big deal” event – locally in effect. I just like to keep things in perspective.
About the containment design… these are four decades old, and I have to assume that there have been advancements, even if not in the US. But then, from what I know of Chernobyl, they are far superior because they *had* a containment design. Whether that can withstand Mother Nature and her fury… well hang, that’s kind of a losing proposition, don’t you think? No matter what man designs, Mother Nature can always one up it.
I totally agree that the Japanese are in defense mode here. I also think they don’t have the tools (i.e. stable power, equipment) to meet the challenge, tho they are heroically doing so. To me.. and correct me if I’m wrong… the “defense” is akin to having a pot of eggs boiling on a stove you can’t turn to off position. If you can’t continue to replace the water boiling off to the eggs, you have a problem. But I also understand that these containment vessels and rods cannot explode. The damage would be different. Meaning they’d melt thru the bottom of the container and contaminate the soils.
As for emissions…. the US west coast, getting into an uproar, strikes me as absurd. We had (minor) radioactive fallout from WWII in Japan, but the effects of that would not have more impact from our own domestic Nevada testing sites. Yes or no, in your opinion?
And I would very much appreciate your more expert feedback on the robot technology that can withstand such levels. All that I read is that only the Germans and French have it. But who knows what our military possesses? Then again, as I said, I can’t imagine our military holding back such technology in this moment in time.
@MataHarley:
Well, that may be so.
It “MAY” be so.
I’m not convinced.
There are three incredibly important projects that I know the U.S. Military is working on and TWO that are already being used.
The “Punisher”
Army wants more ‘Punisher’ smart weapons in Afghanistan
is already in deployment, as are the 7th generation of Drones. America is already deploying Drones over those reactors. Thermal Imaging helps.
But what’s coming is nothing short of revolutionary. It will change not only warfare, but the politics of warfare as well. (The latter might not be a good thing, as current “Doves” could turn into “Hawks” knowing we have this awesome power).
Robotic Tanks with cloaking device.
Auto-load, remotely operated. Not much more to say about that as far as instilling real fear in your enemy except that….they are virtually invisible in daylight. The entire surface is embedded with millions of tiny LED’s. Cameras look out from each side. What the camera on the left side
sees is projected onto the right side of the tank. What’s in front is painted onto the rear. The tank, especially if stationary, is invisible to anyone looking, even with binoculars.
The “Raptor Drone.”
1/4 of a Fighters space and weight is wasted on pilot life support. (Pressurized cockpit, controls, you get the point). In addition, we can today make Jet Fighters that are capable of making maneuvers that would kill a living pilot. (G-Forces). And a pilot can only operate one Jet, and only where defenses have been at least weakened if not eliminated.
BUT NOT THESE MONSTERS!
More fuel capacity (no cockpit) means longer range. Up to 5 can be controlled by one land-based “pilot.” What the lead jet does, they all do, in any type of formation you can imagine.
They can make turns that would kill an engaging pilot, can attack highly defended areas without regard for loss of life, and can become Kamikaze Jets at the push of a button. Shoot one down? Big deal. You detonate it and nothing but little pieces remain.
T.O.T.A.L. A.I.R. S.U.P.E.R.I.O.R.I.T.Y.
And the best:
The Robotic Infantry “Point Man.”
This tough dude doesn’t need K-Rations or water. He can see in the dark, smell you if you’re hiding, can hear your heartbeat inside that garage (And knows if it’s a rooster or a Human, and how many), can detect chemical, conventional or nuclear munitions. It can “see” through wooden walls and carries a huge punch of no less than three weapons.
Disable one? Better keep clear because “Infantry-Bot” just became a suicide bomber. (Followed by hollow laughter through marbled halls).
Got Bots? Well, we have some. Stay tuned for the next generation.
@MataHarley:
HataHarley Wrote: “As for emissions…. the US west coast, getting into an uproar, strikes me as absurd. We had radioactive fallout from WWII in Japan, but the effects of that would have more impact from our Nevada testing sites than those explosions. Yes or no, in your opinion?”
You are SO right and I’ve been saying just that to people ever since this event began.
That we were blowing up not Atomic Bombs, but THERMONUCLEAR BOMBS all over the world, including right here, for DECADES! Where is the “Mass extinction/
Folks, WATCH THIS! is is an interactive map of every Nuke exploded in the world since the age began. Watch what happens when we get to the ’50s and ’60s!!!!:
(You want to click on the second “map.” Make sure you have the volume up. It gets freaky. 1957 was a”Firecracker Year”).
http://www.geekosystem.com/every-nuclear-explosion-time-lapse/
@Nostradamus, I think there is a major difference between deploying “over” a reactor, and into the heart of a reactor to ascertain the condition of the containment vessels. Most especially, in these conditions, the base floor where any rods would eventually melt thru into the ground if not cooled and contained.
Technically, Tallgrass, that is already available. The earthquake does not seem to be the major factor in the Fukushimi plant reactors. It was the tsunami. Three of the six units were already offline for inspections… whatever. One of the three in service units had back up generating cooling systems that
workedfailed (oops… typo) post tsunami. However power to generate those remaining has been intermittent and finite, leading to the valve release of pressure, explosions, fires, etc. Since then, power and the rolling blackouts has only added to a difficult situation, trying to keep the waterflow to the reactors stable.Thus the good news that a new powerline has been installed, that may make the water feed more consistent.
I’m going to guess that you’ve followed this given your background. But may I ask what sources you have used for that?
@Tallgrass: You said:
That would mean he would need to take a stand on a serious issue.
Never gonna happen with this “finger in the wind” POTUS.
Is there anyway they can use ASIMO robots (via remote control) to help???
Why am I not seeing the comments on this thread?
First, the Fukushima situation has been a point of tremendous exasperation for me from a technical perspective. I have not been overly worried about the health and safety of the general public since I have a high level of confidence that even in the worst scenario of events that the reactor design exemplified by Fukushima is self stabilizing. Yes, the damage is extensive, the individual units are perhaps totally destroyed and will never see commercial operation again, but there are physical characteristics of this plant/s that ultimately make them seek a stable condition. Are they dangerous once stable, yes, but as far as the impact on the health of the general populace; it will impossible to pinpoint any changes in health of the public to the Fukushima situation. Certainly studies will be done, both in nuclear physics impact on the surrounding environment and medical studies, and there will be some who will implicate such study results to Fukushima. Be that as it may, I accept that as being a necessary aspect of the industry that will improve the industry in a constructive way.
Now, I look back at what has transpired and all I can say is that I have been in a continuous state of confusion since the whole thing started. This is particularly worrisome to me since I spent a very significant part of my life working around nearly identical facilities. I have sat in the control rooms, trained operations personnel, management personnel and engineers. I have trained with people from Japan who are perhaps at this moment IN the buildings at Fukushima.
In an attempt to provide some insight of what has happened, I offer the following “conjecture” based summary. Why is it conjecture, simply because the detailed information that is needed for me to KNOW what has happened is simply NOT being made available.
We all know that there were two (2) events: Earthquake & Tsunami
These events are catastrophies in themselves, but to have one, the earthquake, followed moments later by the tidal wave is hugely additive to the “confusion” factor involved in what happened at the plants. The exact cause of damage to some of the “outside” structures and infrastructure may never be identified to one or the other. It may be unnecessary to identify the event that caused the damage . . . but that is what ENGINEERS worry about. Did the tower that supports the grid fall down because of the earthquake or did the tower get washed down by the tidal wave? . . . this is VERY important to the engineer that designed the facility or individual component.
Thus it becomes of the utmost importance to KNOW what initially happened inside the Fukushima Plant.
To being with, IMHO there is little doubt that the most severe damage inside of the Reactor Building had to absolutely be the result of the EARTHQUAKE. The phyiscal impact of the shock waves, the response of the building structure, the damaging effects of the cyclical stress throughout the plant was devastating. The inside of the buildings was essentially wrecked from an operational perspective. The damage MIGHT not have even been visible to the eye . . . inside of cabinets, consoles, electronic enclosures . . . the damage was extensive. Instrumentation very important to the monitoring of plant conditions was literally damaged as if hit by a hammer. Piping broke due to fracture of metal from the shaking forces. Piping support systems, hangers, and absolutely required shock absorbtion systems were overloaded and failure resulted . . . pipe, large pipe, weighting tons fell right out of the ceiling. A “SKY IS FALLING” situation existed inside of the plant. All this damage was catastrophic to any level of operator response, normal, off normal and emergency operational procedures simply failed to provide the PEOPLE any congnitive thought scenario. Essentially, during the time between earthquake and tidal wave . . . absolutely NO one knew what was happening or what had happened with in the plant.
The effort of the operators was initially to stabilize the plant, establish a known operational condition from which a logically organized process of actions can be taken. They simply were not given the time to do this.
The Tidal Wave brought a whole new series of catastrophe. Everything that would normally be available to support the logical response efforts of the operators was suddenly lost. Off site electrical power, both the normal shutdown supply and alternate shutdown supply was gone. The emergency diesel generators were brought online, perhaps during the events immediately following the earthquake, but here is one of the unknowns that drive me crazy . . . they failed!!! All of them!!!
The entire plant is NOW BLACK . . . no electric power . . . lighting and instrumentation is NOW on Battery Back-up. Large electrical loads can not be operated . . . pumps can not be used, valves can not be opened or closed, electrical circuit breakers may have to be manually operated.
The main control room is fully functional . . . but the annunciators and alarms are coming in on a continuous basis.
Instrumentation is both damaged by the earthquake and questionable because of the change in operational conditions. Instrumentation for this model of plant, especially reactor water level instrumentation, has always been a difficult system to maintain and operate. This alone, the fact that the operators are “low in confidence” of the water level monitoring system creates great loss of operator confidence. Every operator action now must be verified by multiple indications, and those indications are QUESTIONABLE to the operator. Those boys were scared shitless, without a doubt.
So the intial actions are to get the reactors shutdown, keep them cool and prevent loss of water level . . . wow that sounds simple . . . but it isn’t!!! Not under the conditions that exist within the plant and not within the conditions that exist in operator confidence with instrumentation. This is a not good situation.
The operators are stressed and there is a CHANCE that mistakes were made. This we do not know.
So for about 24 hours the conditions in the control room and in the plant are UNKNOWN or we have not been told anything about them!!! Big questions for me!
Then the first explosion. The plant is now in a whole new, much more serious situation.
This is the beginning of what I have to say. I will try to expand on what happened to produce the explosions . . . but to me . . . that is a different emergency entirely.
Nostradamus, hi, I was wondering , because you did not mention it if the POINT MAN, could also smell and sence the EIDS buryed at diffrent level and also capable of destroying it?
that is the most important and urgent gadget this war and the future warzone will need to save our military lives, I feel from what you gave us, that you might have that knowledge also of if
and when, if it has been created , that will be in action on the ground as we speak
thank you
Tallgrass has it right.
Please remember: these reactors were built 40 years ago, and designed to withstand a magnitude 8.2 earthquake. In 40 years materials do not remain the same; radiation makes the changes more severe; pipes and wires become brittle (they do that even without radiation); the entire facility was scheduled for shutdown this year. The same is true for the seawalls which protected against tsunamis; the bigger waves swamped the transformers and diesels. And salt water conducts electricity, so everything shorted out.
What is with the robot question? So far as I know, all existing robots are operated by electronic devices. Such devices behave very poorly in a highly radioactive environment. That is, if the devices continue to function at all. Harden the device sufficiently, and you will not be able to move it. Showers of high-energy particles are the norm in a reactor. So forget robots.
If it were possible to use robots in radioactive environments, we would be a lot better at processing nuclear waste. Think about this: what we call radioactive waste is collections of isotopes of all kinds, many of which would be useful, could we segregate them out. And all of the methods of segregation are susceptible to interference by the radioactivity which makes the isotopes useful in the first place.
Someday we will have orbital (Lagrangian) systems which will safely vaporize and segregate the materials, return the useful ones to Earth, and send the really dangerous ones into the Sun. Not for a long time, however.
Meanwhile, the Japanese techs and GE will do their best.
When do we know what is true?
When do we look at this story and not just keep seeing ”hyperbola?”
How about now?
The moment nuclear plant chief WEPT as Japanese finally admit that radiation leak is serious enough to kill people
More at link above.
Just more stupid hyperbola?
I might sound like an old fuddy duddy, but why can’t the Japanese or our planes drop water and supplies to the survivors who seem to be trapped without food and water in shelters and isolated communities? Without water, there may be more casualties from water deprivation than from everything else.
There were several Polish Fighters in the Battle of Britain who flew their planes into German bombers when they ran out of ammo or their guns jammed, they chose death rather than letting the crippled bomber make it across the channel. Nearly all the Polish squadrons were wiped out, those few that survived were not allowed to attend victory celebrations or march in parades in front of Stalin, because no one wanted to offend the son of a bitch. FDR’s hero and the darling homicidal maniac of the Left, Joseph Stalin one of the most infamous mass murderers of history.
Yes, we had those who would sacrifice themselves for the cause, but then we turned our backs on them. Ain’t Socialism wonderful.
@Nan G, probably my fault for not being more clear about the media hyperbole from CNN, FOX and MSNBC. And by that I mean their constant radioactive cloud projections, when it would hit the US west coast, every minute pronouncing a complete meltdown predicting a nuclear Armaggedon.
Never have I minimzed the gravity of the situation for the Japanese in the affected areas by the radiation levels… which is not the entire nation. And never for the Fukushimi Fifty that are on the front lines, playing constant defense for events as they happen.
Is it a surprise that anyone would break down in tears and stress in the wake of a triple whammy? i.e. earthquake and constant aftershocks, the tsunami, and the constantly evolving events at the plant? Then pile on with all the press accusations. Hang… surprised it’s not been done sooner. Considering their location, it’s also likely that anyone involved with the plant has lost relatives, friends and their homes while still having to work. The conditions have been reported they, too, are running short on food, water and probably sleep. They are commended for their perseverance in the face of unimaginable adversity.
So yes… Japan is in a world of hurt. But that did not stop a week’s onslaught of bogus hyperbole by the western press about radiation headed to the US, prevailing winds, and announcing nuclear Armaggedon every half hour on the hour. Combine that with their degradation of TEPCO… a company who I’m quite sure was not attempting to cover up what can not be covered up were what the media said was true… and knew the peril that their employees faced while handling this disaster, or the repercussions of many in their nation were they to fail.
Yet now everyone delights in pointing out all they did wrong, and the speed they did so. I suggest that a perfect response is probably unlikely in most situations, and even more rare considering the scope of this triple event. Perhaps all would be different were it just plant failures, and the earthquake, aftershocks and tsunami never happened. I’d wager none of these people were operating at peak emotional and thinking capacity in such a situation.
It took until today until Obama finally got up, and attempted to reverse the hysteria the media was spreading thru the US – pointing out that it’s not us who is in danger. A fear that was propagated by an irresponsible media, more interested in ratings than truth.
Per the IAEA updates,
Remember there is now constant monitoring and updates of radiation levels from 47 cities.
Additionally, there is
one– sorry meant three – reactors rating out of the four that is at a level 5… all of them caused by the inability to keep them constantly cooled with water.I haven’t heard the latest status of the rigged powerline to keep the coolant pumps in constant operation, but that’s going to be a huge help.
Chernobyl is a different case study altogether since it did not have a steel containment structure. Three Mile Island did have a containment structure, thus the minimal release of radiation. This is no Chernobyl. Yet according to the WHO review of effects, 134 of the 240,000 “liquidators”, responders with the highest exposure, died. The increase of thyroid cancers occurred mostly in those who were children, and continued to live in the contaminated areas… likely picked up from milk from cows who grazed in contaminated pastures.
I doubt Japan is foolish enough to allow food for their denizens from contaminated areas. And depending on when and how they get this under control, the contamination areas may be less widespread, the smaller dosage in levels.
At this point, there is no word that these Fukushimi containment structures have had complete failures, but if they need to be cemented in, so be it. Heaven knows that will all be easier to accomplish when they have power, and equipment can get to the site.
In the meantime, the press would be wise to stop screaming “meltdown” every segment, and start being more cautious about spreading information about radiation exposure that either did not occur, or was considerably less than they reported.
I expect, in the long run and retrospect, Skook is entirely correct that the toll on human life from these reactors will pale to the numbers that died from the earthquake and tsunami… and those that may yet lose their life for lack of water, food and emergency assistance.
And Skook? I was wondering the same… why food/water airlifts could not be done. Then again, with entire communities wiped off the map, it’s entirely possible they don’t know who they are dropping supplies to, and if they are able to get to them.
From IAEA monitoring:
@ilovebeeswarzone:
Not if the device was completely covered with earth and was at “room temperature.”
However, it could detect that the earth in a specific area was not conforming to the area it lay in. (That it was “disturbed.”)
I checked with a Colonel that knows quite a bit about this project. I was told that there is a limitation, that the soil must contain trace amounts of Iron. I AM ASSUMING that this has a “magnetic” common denominator.
I am still checking on your question because you raised an interesting point.
(My nephew is in Afghanistan, so it’s personal).
Nostradamus, thank you,I now realize that my question needed some extra work beside your actual work, and I appreciate it, I was also thinking of those tools the GEOLOGIST use for sensing the metal in the earth
when they want to locate where to dig for a mine, if that tool could also locate the eid underground, then if yes it could be fabricate with a laser beam to explode the found eid in front of the moving army including the vehicules, maybe that could be a second question if the other robot cannot do it,
while you’r in a good position to answer my previous second question, thank you
Nostradamus, also the best of all for your nephew, as spring set in, now they will need to double their concentration on finding those eids, and stay alert to any movement even by children helping
the ennemies planting those also woman carrying it hidden inside their clothes, or men dress in woman clothes, head scarfs hiding their face. bye
@ mata
I never raised the specter of Armaggedon, nor had my hair on fire, but when I pointed out this fallacy you went crazy. Thanks for acknowledging your error.
You might want to reread your own comment #3 again, blast. You were arguing there was no hyperbole or fear mongering going on, contradicting what had been broadcast 24/7 for the past days since the reactors started having problems. Speculation by uninformed TV talking heads in the middle of a triple catastrophe is nothing short of irresponsible. In fact, it is only in the last 24 hours that the press has calmed down, and started having on nuclear experts who point out what they forecast for both radiation effects around the globe, and even the effects in Japan are severely overstated by bozos with microphones.
But it’s great for ratings…
I made no “error” save that I didn’t point out the obvious “fear mongering” specifically – apparently which was needed since a few of you seemed to miss the obvious thrust of the danger danger, Will Robinson….. radioactive cloud headed to US! constant coverage , and screaming “meltdown” every segment.
Or doesn’t your bunker get the big three cable stations?
You didn’t have to raise the “specter of Armaggedon”. This post and the fear mongering ain’t all about you. You’re not on cable TV, driving fear into the susceptible minds of Americans…. some for ratings, others for an anti-nuke power agenda.
But apparently, it worked with you.
For our more industry specific learned readers especially… ahem Tallgrass, John Cooper, etal… there’s an excellent timeline and fact sheet from Nate Ames of the Nuclear Fabrication Consortium. It’s updated as of yesterday, March 18th.
From what I can see, the GE unit had a double containment layer of protection, while the Toshiba and Hitachi designs did not. On Sunday, Mar 13, when #1 and # were building pressure levels, the Japanese were cognizant that #3 might blow its superstructure when the levels reached a critical point. They’ve also been focusing on locating more heat exchangers for more efficient pressure relief than steam venting.
TEPCO has a PDF of their plant designs, plus manufacturers.
@Mata… really? I am not in a bunker, and never was worried about the impact here. You read too much into things. Touchy.
Not worried about the impact here? That’s why all your Armaggedon’ish comments on Thread II, like the references to the horror of Naval personnel exposed that “radiation cloud”, and exposed to radiation levels that were negligable, eh? Why you don’t know the after effects of Cherynobyl, but still classify it as some earthshattering event that should forever quelch the need for nuke power unless it’s 100% safe (like anything ever is…)?
You speak with forked, uneducated tongue. Go bother someone who gives a flying fart, and hide out in fear.
Let’s try revisiting the recent past, eh blast? All from Thread II
Between you and your other “it’s gotta be safe” buds, I will repeat the question. Where on Mother Earth is anything safe from her fury?
Here’s the point, blast. You bought into the media line of a radiation cloud enroute to the US horse manure, hook, line and sinker, with no curiousity to explore further. The radiation would arrive at the US coast, and you informed us that Naval personnel were compromised. Therefore you’ve decided that there are places that these power plants should not be built… like anything man builds can withstand Earth’s fury.
Keep your geiger counter close, and your CNN, FOX and MSNBC news feed closer in your bunker.
The Los Angeles Times Science section is reporting that some of Japan’s tap water, home-grown spinach and some batched of milk ate testing ”higher than normal,” in radiation today.
Also the TV news says people are still eating and drinking these as they are high but not unacceptably high in radiation.
After all the initial fright games I never heard another word about higher than normal levels in CA.
Our own local AQMD has put up a page that is here.
Less local here.
The raw data map page isn’t coming up.
Maybe too many users?
The ”Data Summary” is very reassuring.
Nothing happened here.
Despite news to the contrary.
It was ironic, Nan G, after my comment to you about Chernobyl’s milk, etc, that I heard this in this AM’s news. Was wondering when you might notice it.
As I figured, Japan already banned any food sources from the affected radiation areas, and the tap water is not enough to be concerned about. I would assume, that like most urban water reservoirs, they get it from the higher elevations to the north (thereby somewhat affected) and it’s water run off. So far, not enough to panic about, and always something to keep an eye on.
The radiation cloud in the US scare was a bust, as many experts already predicted was an absurd commentary. Doesn’t meant the anti-nuke agenda driven won’t continue to try.
MATA, hi, good post for info, thank you, again,
I was wondering that traveler from the danger zone of radiation, those coming in AMERICA with their individual load of RADIATION, if they could infect some of it to other citizens by any mean like touching a doorknob in front of you, for exemple that are numerous, touching another human or food that you will eat ecetera, and what of their level could come out if for exemple they have 100 per cent of the dose, what percentage could infect the other? and how long will they carry that radiation bye
Ms. Bees, according to the the CDC, there is a possibility of spread (like a virus) via touch and body emissions. This would, of course, entail they have absorbed toxic contamination levels… i.e. if the nuke plant workers suddenly came home after max exposure, and gave it to their families. All depends upon levels and circumstances, of course. This would be why the US is screening Japanese incoming flight passengers for levels.
@MataHarley:
Look at it from a demographic standpoint, Mata.
Neither Japan no the USA are young countries.
Japan’s average age is 44 years!
Ours is almost 39 years.
(Compare this to Libya, for example, with an average age of 24.)
So, even if we were exposed to radiation few of us would get it in our natural lifetimes.
Fewer Japanese.
Runoff radiation and air borne radiation is not high enough to form a blip on our two populations.
Statsfrom…. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/index.html
@ mata.
bs. pure bs. don’t miss quote me. Radiation could get here… I was responding to a question and stated it was speculation (at that time). Radiation will get here, if it is not already. But of course it would not be at dangerous levels. I have not been posting scare tactics on this issue, so I don’t quite get your diminishing tone and attacks.
I am open to information and have stated my support to nuclear… but it has to be safe. This accident obviously should cause engineers to look at their plans and consider this potential (that is called learning from history).
Only someone stupid would not want safe nuclear energy plants. And “safe buds” if that is your code word for people who give a shit about the potential fall out from an accidental release of radiation… count me in that group.
I am not an expert on Nuclear Energy Plant design and placement… and neither are you. So any answer to your question would be a lay mans guess. But… for sure placing a plant near a fault line, on the coast where Tsunamis are possible… and given the warnings about that type of plant’s vulnerabilities… well… I would hazard to guess that place and that type of plant don’t work well. Plus, I always thought that the fuel rods were in a secure containment… we now learn that they are in exposed pools with very little protection. Sounds like a recipe for disaster, especially in a post 9/11 world.
Oh yes… who can resist these moments from blast
Got there a couple of days ago, bozo. Non event. Where were you? Out of reception in your bunker?
Can you possibly be this stupid? Don’t even want to bother to respond. There are ample links in both the post and comments above to educate you to the very base about common fuel pools.
another duh for you
@Mata
“I assume” and you know this by what fact?
blast’isms…
By the fact that Tokyo’s urban water system is mostly supplied in bulk by the Kando province, bozo… a location to the NE (towards the coast, epicenter and power plants). A little more reading and less defensive counter-typing is in order for you.
If you, sitting in your southern Cal bunker, is stupid enough to worry about potential fallout from a Japanese power plant’s emissions in your California location, then I’ll be happy to count you in the group of “too stupid to come out of your bunker” class, blast. This is what I’ve been saying, and you’ve been denying.
duh
@Mata,
I was not speaking of Tokyo. There are other cities and millions of people closer in, what about their water supplies? You made a very general pronouncement minimizing the impact on water supplies. You never said Tokyo until now, and enough with the bozo and other bs. If you don’t want to be civil then just don’t respond to my comments.
I am in Texas and not in a bunker, you need new slam material.
Yo… blast. Where was the water in question but in Tokyo?
third duh for you… three strikes, you are out.
I didn’t say you were in Texas. What part of “southern Cal” in my comment misses your reading comprehension? I know where you are (and chose not to reveal to others, BTW). And I’ve read what you said about radiation and safety. The “bunker” is where you live mentally… not physically.
@Mata,
Really mata? First you claim I am glued to TV and then not. Actually I have not been paying attention 24/7 – so shoot me. Yea, a non event. Except you have to prove something right?
You’re on a “duh” roll, blast
If you haven’t a clue what’s going on about your “radiation cloud” that you mentioned would come to the damage if in the “jet stream”… sigh…, then why the heck do you think you’re qualified to comment about radiation levels reaching California? As you did in Thread II.
Backpeddling furiously, along with your high count of “duh” rates, blast? Ya know, they may have an “I Owe Dina” pill treatment for that “gullible” gene.
I don’t think I could play with you two, you are too sharp for me to follow,
but It’s very intertaining,to follow!!! the tone is too cool
Mata,
First, you never delineated that you were speaking about Tokyo… and the source article spoke about Tokyo (naturally) AND OTHER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY. Your statement did not differentiate. You cannot speak as an authority for “the tap water is not enough to be concerned about:” because you have no idea what you are talking about.
Actually prior to this disaster I did not know that radioactive materials that contained enough energy to heat up and burn were store in this manner. I bet most people in this country did not know fuel rods were stored in pools and not in some form of secondary containment (and nearly on top of the reactor). I don’t feel that is being stupid. Of course during this event we all have learned more about these plants.
We really have to go slow for you, eh blast?
The *only* news was about Tokyo water supply. There is no news about others. I’d wager a guess that they aren’t testing the water in at risk contamination areas within the power plants. And that certainly they would be at higher levels if coming via land that could experience contamination from the radius noted around the power plants. Have you not yet figured out that the damage is really confined to a very defined radius yet?
Or do you figure that radius travels on the jet stream still? LOL
How many “duhs” are you willing to rack up tonight? And I’ll stop with the bozo when you stop behaving like one. Get off your butt and start reading and learning from someone other than TV news.
If you didn’t know about common fuel pools prior to this disaster, welcome to the club. If you don’t know about them now, almost a week after, in the week of media hyperbole, shame on you. You’re intellectually lazy.
for the record Mata… here is the exchange you are blowing out of proportion as it relates to the radiation cloud coming here…
Unlike you, I said i was not sure. and then I indicated what the thought was from what was gleaned from the news. And as you have pointed out, the news was correct, the radiation did make it here.
Now if there is something inaccurate in my comment to ilovebeeswarzone please point it out.
blast… oh one of limited world view… I am NOT talking about Flopping Aces perspective of hyperbole, but CNN, FOX, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, etal. As I pointed out at the onset in this thread, the media spread of disinformation and bogus technology – leading to the boost in geiger counter sales on the western side of the US in a panic – was irresponsible. I assure you, that irresponsibility was not by a blog the size of Flopping Aces, or a political pundit of the magnitude of Ms. Bees.
Your comments, as I lift/pasted from Thread II, indicates that you were uneducated enough to accept… from the media… that any Japanese emissions from steam or explosions would make their way to the US on “the jet stream” and be dangerous. There may be a pill for that gullibility disease… or not.
Sixth duh. I’ve played too many innings with you this eve, and now I’m bored. Sorry.
I already linked to that comment #38 as well as others. If you’d like a full recap of your attitude, check out your ensuing comments in #71, 76, 86 and 112 of that same thread.
How’s your bunker stocked, blast? LOL What a wuss…
LOL! Really… going for your seventh duh in a row? That’s the entire point of the hyperbole of the press, bozo… er, blast. That yes, I was entirely sure that whatever wafted over from Japan was NOT GOING TO BE AMAGGEDAON!
sigh…
Now you tell me “the news is correct” because the “radioactive cloud” the news was hyping actually arrived.
Well, blast, with a nor’easter, your Texas fart would do the same to Mexico…..
OMG! Let’s get gas masks and geiger counters! It’s a national story!
Desperate….
@ mata,
Again, you mischaracterize my comment and my follow ups. I never said that dangerous levels would make their way here.
Get your facts straight.
another desperate attempt at a back peddle, blast. First, it’s important. Now you talk about how you mention radiation that arrives here, but it has no consequence. Why not discuss the import of your fart on the wind instead?
ass hat..
Done for the evening. You’re simply not worth my time. I’m sure there’s a really bad movie I can watch instead. ta ta
@ mata,
I actually left. Can you let me know the rules as it relates to insults. Since you are becoming like Mike’s America and less like the mata I knew before, I just want to know how I can respond to all of your ridiculous comments. This coming on the heals of you asking me to be more respectful. Geez.
blast, don’t try to fool MATA she had you figured out, you where more than insulting on dr john’s POST with Mr Irons who has shown to be far more knowledgeble than you, your attitude is obvious to attack the group of CONSERVATIVES,
WHAT IS IT WITH YOU ALL ? YOU LACK OF CLASS, YOU SEEMS TO EMERGE FROM THE GUTTER EVERYONE OF YOU,
@ILOVEBEESWARZONE: you look at that thread, and look for who ramped up any form of insult. I certainly did not use anything near the jackwagon crap etc he was using. I disagree with him. He claims his set of facts are right. I disagree. Same with mata with “ass hat” and other bs. I think people resort to diminishing others when they have no real facts and want to silence debate. People disagree on many sides of issues without the type of crap pushed out on here. I will react to people on how they treat me. if they come at me… I will return in kind.
Some of this came from your question to me, I answered it and was not putting you down or casting aspersions on your character. Do you think I was being over wrought in what I said to you in the previous thread (about the weather bring radiation here – see comment #55) we shared information and the exchange was done. Mata tried to recast my statements in an incorrect fashion.
not to me but to my friends as I start to follow yor comments also to one hero of many wars, that require an appology for sure, and more of it, I realy did not appreciate anyone treating my friends
with an arrogance that you showed, some of those have done many tours in the warzone they deserve the respect due to their sacrifices, no matter if they address your comment , beside you are not of the same politic mind , so don’t come here to protect your side by insulting them, they know a lot more of what is going on than you do,
@blast: again, whatever. You showed up on this thread, ignoring and making apologies for a hyperbolic media. Whether that was because you conveniently ignore the days of chicken little “radioactive cloud headed to the US” nonsense, or the constant “meltdown” promises every segment, or you bought into it, I don’t care. But you began with your comment #3, challenging me just what media I would be watching that would make me say that. And, of course, that it was I who was hyperbolic.
When you put yourself in the unenviable position of defending a hyped up, uneducated media, you also stretch for desperate “facts”… like the but-Mata-the-cloud-did-arrive. As I said, so would your fart on a nor’ester. Is that worthy of breathless fear mongering, which was proven by the surge in sales of geiger counters by terrified west coast residents?
As for insulting you, what are you… Mr. innocent with your own commentary? Go whine to someone who cares.
@Mata, I am not interested in repeating myself. I just want to know if it is fair game to call you names, ass hat, stupid, and of the usual stuff you spin out. Is that allowable here?
@blast:
Could someone get this person a crying towel?
It has been my observation that when Mata uses colorful metaphors, the person on the receiving end has almost always earned them.
@anticsrocks I was directing my message at mata. If the rules here are anything goes, I will address you with the same derision. As for crying towel. I can take care of myself. I just want to know the rules. Tired of all of the stupid name calling on this site, if someone brings it on, I am happy to respond. They kicked me off here before for my conduct… so if there is no rule for name calling, I am game.
blast, you’r not in a position to make rules here just be polite with the conservatives and dont shoot the lines to make them angry, because they are more tolerants than who ever you give allegence to, we just have to look around to see it clear as crystal, there is none of your name calling here unless you post a negative against the SMART CONSERVATIVES HERE, AS YOU CANNOT FOOL THEM A BIT, AS MUCH AS YOU TRY,