Watch this excellent rundown of ObamaCare by Krauthammer and see what the results will be within the next year. It’s a little less than 5 minutes but well worth your time:
Krauthammer: The big picture I think is that within the 12 months we’re going to have a raging national debate on something I think no one has talked about and that is a national sales tax.
Yup….as soon as the supposed “savings” and “deficit reductions” of ObamaCare are proven to be false, which will be sooner rather than later, the taxes will come our way. Something we have been warning about for some time and something which will slow our economy down even more and thus will begin the cycle we might very well have to get used to unless we throw as many Socialist Democrats out of office this November.
A sneak peek? Look how well a country with Socialized medicine and the VAT is doing:
Just weeks before the country is due to go to the polls, the Chancellor warned the well off that they must pay their “fair share”.
Such is the scale of public debt, which Mr Darling forecast would rise to £1.4 trillion in the next five years, he was unable to announce substantial tax breaks or giveaways aimed at attracting voters.
Instead, he was forced to reveal a series of measures that would raise money.
And that’s not the worst of it. ObamaCare now makes it more attractive for businesses to just slow their growth, and slow the increase of salaries.
• Businesses with fewer than 25 employees that pay an average of no more than $40,000 will get a tax credit – up to 35 percent of the company’s share of their total health care premium.
• Companies with 26-49 workers are unaffected.
• Businesses with 50 or more workers must offer coverage or pay $750 per worker. That penalty applies for every employee if even one signs up for government-subsidized insurance.
But there are potential problems. Case in point: It would be much cheaper for Dick Bus to drop the generous coverage he now offers and take the hit at $750 a head for his 120 workers. The penalty would be $90,000 a year. He’s currently spending $480,000.
Bus would save $390,000, but canceling his plan would force his workers to the health plan exchange and could cost more than they’re paying now. The Senate is considering an increase in the $750 penalty to prevent that scenario.
More on the salary angle:
….small businesses only become eligible for the credits if their average salary remains below $40,000. That means a decision to give raises not only carries the cost of the raise itself to the business, but also a potential loss of that 35% subsidy ObamaCare grants. This will have the overall effect of suppressing salaries and putting experienced workers at a disadvantage in hiring decisions. It also provides an incentive to keep the workforce under 26 people; the 26th hire eliminates that 35% subsidy as well, making it a very expensive new position.
It’s quite sad really. We may all be witnesses to the decline of a great country. We have weathered many threats, many dangers, and many difficult times but this might very well be the decline we have all feared unless we have the fortitude, willpower, and strength to stop it.
I’m just not sure the growth of the “me too” entitlement crowd can be turned around anymore.
See author page
@DannyD
I ain’t even warmed up yet.
I’m retired, and have more time than anyone here to bash fools and bullies.
But if you you bring me flowers and feed me, we’re alright. 😉
@Tom #42:
And then as “proof”, you offer up the following:
@Tom #46:
Tom, this from your link:
Wanna try again? What exactly is it I’m failing to see “between the lines”?
So not only are you engaging in smear, accusing Rove of race-baiting without proof, but you now want to link FA to such smear as well?
Gosh, that sounds a lot like….smear.
@Tom, ol boy… where I come from, friends have each other’s back. Must be a novel concept for you. Bees speaks quite well for herself, but that doesn’t preclude her friends may also point out you’re an unobservant jackass. My guess is your human support world must be pretty slim if you liken such behavior to keeping a domestic pet or domesticated help. But thanks for additional insight to your quite dislikeable personality.
Oh, and if you thought my post was “angry”… LMAO!…. let me assure you that you have not seen me “angry” yet. But I’m sure you felt it was necessary to flatter yourself, assuming you rated that amount of energy from me.
Instead, you managed to slip off the cliff of cogency with the balance of your rambling post. Frankly it looked more like a desperate attempt to assemble every catchall phrase or words of hate espoused by the progressive left in a single paragragh. You were doing better with your attempts at sizzlingly cute and acerbic intellectualism, bubba.
Life’s too short to spend much time engaging a guy like you, who offers little inventive thought, but stays armed with the latest Alinsky dictionary of insults. So you are in a category with a few others… the simple cyber gnats who are annoying, but hardly worth much more than a single swat with a fly swatter.
@ilovebeeswarzone:, vous serez les bienvenu.
MATA .. 🙄 y’alldoing so good and learning so fast that we will jump to number 5 class next fall,now we all need to practice in the mean time,so je salue la REPUBLIQUE DES ETATS UNIES DE L’AMERIQUE,
@Tom
Well…You have carved out quite a niche for yourself here. From post #1 you have been able to stir the pot here with both provocative language and attitude. I quite frankly don’t know how you found FA on the net but you did. Your perspective is not unique, just confrontational and crass. There are others that come here looking to see how high they can piss on the virtual electronic wall to leave their mark. So be it. If you tried you could offer better than that.
I have some background for you from a group of folks that read FA daily from my present location on the planet. FA is a touch of home for us.
It is almost 17:00 here outside Kandahar, going on supper time. I deal with confrontational folks here daily but face to face. Here in the Stans talking points don’t buy much and attitude is everything. My group of folks here are quite unique as well. I command a group of Joint Forces here with diverse backgrounds and experience. We share a common purpose and common goals as well as an Oath to Protect and Defend the Constitution against all enemies both foreign and domestic.
We have educational levels that cover the spread from High School through Masters Degrees and some read, speak and write with proficiency in several languages. We deal with local security, civil affairs, basic sanitation, medical care and the eradication of terrorism in a land that US Foreign Policy has failed and the Taliban flourished. This is as much war as a stability operation in a very volatile and unstable locale.
We are both well read and well traveled from Panama, Somalia, the Middle East, the Balkans, the Philippines, Eastern Europe and wherever threats to the US or our Allies have reared their ugly heads. We deploy anywhere we are sent in less than 72 hours and go where diplomacy has failed. I have been in this business for over 30 years and business is good.
Your politics and attitude are something we have seen before both inside and outside the US. You are no different than others that stir the pot, come off like a schoolyard bully and exhibit more anger than common sense. We have seen racism, petty politics, genocide, intimidation by force of arms and other methods used to influence outcomes.
If you want honest non confrontational discussion here start out with some civility, a factual knowledge of the subject with no BS talking points and expect to be offered the same. Otherwise, pissing on boots here will just fulfill your need to leave your graffiti here but fall short of impressing anyone with your wit, intellect or intelligence. Insulting Bees, Skookum or Patvan with your cheap talking points or approach is not very keen or flattering. Personal insults do not enhance your discussion one lick. It just marks you as lacking in character.
Well, off to supper for me. I have a full plate here trying to win Mr. Obama’s War. He owns it now. He committed troops as CIC so it is his. I am not politically affiliated or aligned as both parties never served to represent me well. Both Democrats and Republicans have deployed me to places where diplomacy and Foreign Policy have failed and murder and mayhem prevailed.
I come here for a touch of intellectual stimulation and humor. I find your postings to offer neither. I’m not going to post my bio or resume here but I am a graduate of the War College and have a Masters in International Relations from the University of Maryland. I also have a good sized cattle ranch in Montana, where I was born and raised that I retired to a few years back until I was recalled to active duty. I probably pay more in taxes than you earn in a year and I don’t get fooled too often by anyone.
Either go away and piss on someone else s wall or adjust your attitude and do some homework. FA readers and posters are not fooled either.
FA readers…Je Vous Tout.
Freedom is not Free that’s why they sent me. Have a good day.
OLDTROOPER2 GOD BLESS YOU all ON this journey,je vous aime aussi 🙄
Neither political party sent you, Trooper – the American people did. And, most of us are grateful. Keep your head down and come back safe!
Trooper,
I actually agree with you on many of your points. I’m sure if we were all in a town-hall meeting type setting, the discussion would be much more civil and the opinions more tempered. A variety of perspectives tends to have that effect, just as the opposite tends to radicalize opinions. I don’t particularly like message boards because the screen of anonymity can bring out the worst in people, myself included. My issue with this board (and this is probably true of many boards across the ideological spectrum) is that it’s an echo chamber. More than that, it’s a place that breeds a needless, competitive sense of one-upsmanship, an attitude where everyone is trying to be ‘the most’: I’m the most against Obamacare; I’m the most against our government; I’m the one who thinks Obama is the most red; I’m the guy who hates Barry the most. There’s a tide here pushing opinion in one direction and no one wants to be left behind, so it’s self-reinforcing. You say that you welcome different opinions, but when does anyone here actually solicit them? From what I’ve witnessed anyone who thinks differently about President Obama is immediately shouted down and labeled red. In my particular case, if you think the negative attitude has all been one-sided, you should go back and read it all again. If more people were like Skookum, this could have gone in a different direction. But when a guy like Patvann, the classic ‘Angry Man who beats his dog’ migrated to the internet, is calling for my head, I’m going to react, and sometimes not in a way that makes me proud. You get down in the mud, you’re going to get dirty. I don’t see any point in continuing it.
As to your service, no one can question that. Its too bad that Obama is such a cartoon villain that a discussion of his foreign policy and the troop surge could never happen here without the peanut gallery jumping in and yelling “red” or something worse. In fact, I haven’t read one thing about the wars on this board. You would think they weren’t this nations number one priority.
Best of luck to you.
All together now…
Waaaaaa! I’m a victim!!! I wanna call names without anyone bothering meeeeee!
@Tom:
There you are ladies and gentlemen.
Another sterling example of how uninformed Tom is about this particular site.
Tom, if you really, truly are interested in what this site is all about take a stroll through the archives. You’ll find a plethora of posts about our war efforts against terrorism in general, about Al Qaeda specifically, as well as mountains of posts about Iraq and Afghanistan.
Don’t make the presumptuous assumption that just because you don’t see it on the front page that it isn’t something that we discuss because, well, that would make you look like a fool. Again.
Heck, I’ll even make it easy for you. Here’s a hotlink to our post archives.
As you read through the archives you’ll also find out, if you pay more attention to learning than critiquing, that FA features multiple members of the military, both active duty and retired.
One final thing…If you scroll all the way up to the top of the page, you’ll notice some playing card illustrations. Those photographs display the images of some of the enemies that we are fighting in the WOT.
Exit question: If we were disinterested in our war efforts…as you imply…why, pray tell, would those playing cards be illustrated the way they are?
Yeah..
I’m unconcerned about the war my son is being sent to next month…
Pfft.
@Tom #60:
I think you actually make a decent point here. I for one, welcome dissent and don’t want FA comments to be nothing more than an amen chorus of like-mindeds; but since it’s a conservative blog, don’t be surprised to find many who come here as a place to vent amongst like-minded folk.
If you want to foster a spirit of respectful debate, even if it’s not extended to you by the other side, be the leader and set the example.
Aye Chihuahua: Tom probably fees like the new kid in school here and is feeling things out.
A browsing of the FA archives is an educational experience all by itself. This place attracts all kinds of people with various influences and backgrounds. Kind of an intellectual buffet.
FA is not a hostile environment unless the folks posting come here looking for that and I feel that most postings here are quite civil and restrained compared to other places on the net or the Staff Briefings I attend or hold here.
We come here for intellectual stimulation, commentary and humor. Most of the time I find that and it is fun. The exchange of ideas and opinions is grand most of the time. My Night Crew in Operations reads FA daily and find it a very atisfying experience due to Curt’s generosity and the work of yourself, Mike, Wordsmith, Mata and some of the regular FA posters.
You moderators do a keen job of keeping the train on the tracks despite the intent of some folks that post their points of view here.
Again, Thanks Pardner!
@Wordsmith:
With them, everything is “between the lines.” They just find something that they think can be stretched to fit, as long as their listener doesn’t actually think about it. Then they repeat it, and reference each other as sources, or just say (or imply that) “everybody knows that…” There is no connection, except at the visceral level, and only because they want it to be, not because it is.
And they accuse us of not “thinking.” Well, if by “thinking” they mean the sloppy mental contortions they indulge in, then I’m really glad I don’t know how to do that.
That’s why, as Evan Sayet says, “everything they know is wrong.” It is why they always choose wrong over right, and always choose evil over good. But he says it so much better than I do, so, here he is again (for the benefit of those who haven’t heard him yet)
@Tom:
No, Tom. This isn’t a leftist hate-fest website. When we agree, it is because we thoughtfully agree. And when we disagree, we let others know it.
Feel free to stop patronizing us any time. It makes you sound like that “Prince Charming” from Shrek, and with about as much of a clue.
AND NOW WE RETURN YOU TO THE SUBJECT MATTER OF THIS THREAD
The Democrat goal IS to stop the economy from growing, as Dr. Krauthammer says.
OT, Order Arms! Thank you, sir! Your posts make me wish I was a young man and had a chance to do it over again. Your men must feel it is an honor to serve with you.
Tom, I have not responded because of an overwhelming work load from a physically demanding job that is extremely dangerous. I have been self-employed my whole life; am I worried about people who have employers don’t cover their health care? Not especially!
I am a dual citizen, I carry a passport from Canada; I have seen the positive aspects and the negative aspects of Socialized Medicine, including massive abuse and fraud. (I refer to the abuse by the welfare class, who “visit” the doctor when they are bored, and they are bored several times a week)
Do I resent that people with pre-existing conditions can’t be insured? This is a problem that could have been addressed, instead of nationalizing an entire medical system.
I think addressing the problem of ‘tort reform’ or nuisance law suits’ would have been much more effective at curbing medical costs immediately, rather than dancing around one of the major problems of the medical system.
I am sure you are a handsome man, maybe as handsome as John Kerry or LBJ; perhaps you should inform us of your personal beauty, so we will have no doubt. Charles is an intelligent man, who has a unique insight, he stakes his career on his projections of future political events. I find the idea of judging someone or making disparaging remarks about their appearance or race to be reprehensible.
I am a big muscular man, with a ‘rugged’ face and a naturally intense stare: I intimidate people without trying, trust me, it is frustrating to get into a discussion and have big men tell you they are intimidated and want assurances that I wont hurt them. I am sure Charles has fought to overcome his wooden appearance and compete in the real arena of ideas; rather than in the arena of parroted propaganda of a state controlled media outlet, where a pretty face can deliver the ‘goods’ as well as anyone else. If Charles is wrong about a VAT, he will be ridiculed by people like yourself: if you are wrong, you will drop the issue and flit over to some other Conservative idea that you take exception with: that is the advantage of your anonymity.
I think the Democrats have a limited window of opportunity, they will stiff arm this VAT to the face of the American people, just as they have done with Nationalizing Health Care. They will use our money to bribe corrupt Democrat Congressmen to accept whatever Socialism, ‘The Won’ can dream up before November.
Thankfully, Massachusetts gave us another Republican in the Senate so the we can slow the evisceration of the American economy by the Marxist in Chief.
I am not your ‘Patsy’, I can be vicious when you attack my cyber friends. This is an arena of ideas, a place where we learn and build upon each other’s knowledge and experience. We have little sympathy to those who want to leave their nasty graffiti on our pages like adolescent boys who are passing through puberty, nor will we tolerate personal attacks on our friends. If you have nothing to offer but the latest propaganda spin from the Soros center for world government, you will find the cyber blades sharp indeed and you should seriously consider a Leftist blog, where mindless rants and personal attacks are encouraged.
Skookum, many do not realize that Krauthammer has been confined to a wheelchair since his freshman year in med school, following a diving accident.
But you have nailed the hypersensitive … as it relates to himself only, that is…. Tom to a tee. He comes in on a negative tone, is surprised when his opinions (such as they were) were not greeted with a welcome mat and wide open arms. The first comment was a judgment call on Krauthammer’s appearance, as if that bore any relationship to a brilliant mind. Or would it be that he holds Krauthammer responsible for the TV production make up artists? Nope… don’t think his grey matter can accommodate for the details of reality.
He then attacks the heinous… heh… verbal crimes of Bees reminding him what his mamma probably never taught him – manners. This after he wanders into FA with a ‘tude. And for that he slams her less than perfect English.
chutzpah
Yup… the man has a judgment system based on the superficial.
@Aye Chihuahua:
And if this had been a post about war, he would have said… “In fact, I haven’t read one thing about the economy on this board. You would think it wasn’t this nations(sic) number one priority.”
You can never please the Left. But then, who would want to?
This thread has drifted a long way away from the article that discusses “National Sales Tax.”
Am new here and am quite intrigued by the comments. There is a lot of badgering of the left in here and quite frankly it’s disappointing. If people from the right believe in freedom so much how can they continue to treat the left like the metaphorical ‘red-headed stepchildren.’ We are all equals regardless of the ideas we bring to the table. The FREE country I grew up in allows me to do this free of retribution. I don’t like the ideas from the right but you can have your say at my table……and if you have a good and valid point than I can live with it. I sure as hell won’t complain about non-related issues such as your second language.
To the point, the title of this article is “Get ready for the national sales tax…” Really? the first statement from Krauthammer is “The big picture I think is that…” Key here being I THINK. No facts there. One poster above said something to the effect of “I’ve been waiting for years for this.” So your fear-mongering has taken this long to come to fruition? What are you going to do if another dozen years go by without it being enacted? I guess say something like “see, I told you so.”
Another glaring problem is the select “look” of a country with Socialized medicine and VAT and to point out that they are about to go down the gutter. Hmmmm. The writer is doing a selective check on a country in attempts to degrade the notion of universal healthcare altogether. If I were a thinking man I would check the references and do a little research on countries with healthcare and try and figure out how many are successful rather than find one that is failing to back up my negative feelings about the bill. There are plenty of successful countries (regardless of inclusion of the VAT). And you should probably check the CIA world fact book on this one. There are 67 countries with universal health care (now 68) and there are only 3 that are even considered to have a socialist or communist government, China, Cuba, and North Korea. None of the countries are considered to be socialist. Not to mention that the US is no longer the ONLY industrialized nation without universal healthcare.
Next, to address the term “socialized healthcare.” This is a term that used mostly in the U.S. in a vain attempt to paint liberals as Socialists. The term that is used the most outside of our borders is “universal healthcare.” This term is further defined as “a health care system mostly financed by taxes and administered by the government to provide comprehensive health care that is accessible to all citizens of that nation….” Not sure if you noticed but A. our program is not ‘mostly financed by taxes’ and B. is NOT administered by the government.
For those of you out there on the right this health care plan should come as a blessing because it is actually making our country LESS Socialist……Think about it this way, we have had socialized healthcare for everyone because 1. we have medicare for seniors, 2. have medicaid for seniors and for the poor who qualify, 3. make most workers buy insurance through their jobs, and 3. hospitals currently have to treat EVERYONE regardless of citizenship, insurance, or anything else (that would be the rest of the people who don’t buy insurance but still get sick). That covers…..let me see…….EVERYONE in the U.S. That is universal healthcare (or socialized healthcare if you still insist on using that term). So I’m sorry but we have all been socialists since LBJ was in office, you righties just haven’t figured that out yet.
On to the good part, with this bill we are actually trying to force more people to buy their own insurance (forcing the insurance companies to make premiums cheaper for the poor). If more poor people buy insurance and get treated by doctors rather than visiting ER’s then we law-abiding tax payers actually foot LESS of the bill. So if we reduce the number of people receiving the free entitlement of health care, then we are actually becoming less socialist in the end. And the real issue becomes whether or not the law is constitutional.
I’m sure there are plenty of issues that you’ll bring up against my arguments but I’ve at least vented them. And I am not saying that everything put out by the gov and the CBO is correct but at least do your research before complaining that the plan is completely out to lunch. Thanks.
I have a feeling by what we read that the left does’nt realyse that the thinkers of the right have not figure out the problem wich that law will encounter,,thinking of not just now but in the near future of americans ,they are very up to date on the laws and the way it was pass under thousands of papers sheets that nobody even bother to discuss with the professionals of the opposition,it smell bad,,
@CBrown:
“There is a lot of badgering of the left in here….”
Lefties who express their opinions honestly and respectfully get treated so. If not, we give as good as we get, and with no apologies. But, mostly, because the Left advances their agenda with deceit and treachery, your defense of them puts you in the category of either fool, or propagandist. I.e., you have just identified yourself as a legitimate target for “badgering,” – because you deserve it.
“…and quite frankly it’s disappointing.”
What are you some elementary school teacher with a minor in psychology who is going to shut us up with a ‘good scolding’?
Talking down to us is another invitation to be targeted, btw.
Fortunately for you, I have better things to do than waste my time reading any more of your silly lecture, and fortunately for me, I don’t have to.
Nope, not an elementary school teacher or the recipient of a psychology major, and not someone to give a good scolding….just simply stating my position.
If providing a different point of view, perspective, facts, or anything else that you don’t like is considered to be “talking down to you” then so be it.
I am trying to be a part of a constructive topic that is, in my opinion (and based on certain facts), better for everyone, on the right and the left. Unfortunately many on the right (and a few on the left) don’t like the bill for reasons that are not wholly valid. So you can complain all you want about “talking down to you,” I actually see that as a lame excuse to not discuss the facts, probably because you don’t like them.
Lastly, it’s a free country yonason, you can read whatever you want……..just please don’t be someone who claims they believe in freedom and America who then completely disregards the beliefs or ideas of ANYONE they don’t agree with.
ilovebees I don’t necessarily agree with all that you wrote in that I’m pretty sure that many parts of this bill were discussed with professionals and in the end the AMA and a majority of medical professionals like this bill. Additionally I agree that very few people read the bill as a whole but to insinuate that the entire bill was not completely read by the group who passed it is a fallacy. I do believe that there are potential pitfalls but with the results of the CBO my fears have been alleviated. I have also done research on universal healthcare in other countries and now know that it can be successful……even without the high tax rate, namely because we have instituted a system unlike any other in the world- one that is based on willing participation (for the most part) of the patients.
Thanks for the input.
@CBrown:
“…don’t be someone who claims they believe in freedom and America who then completely disregards [sic] the beliefs or ideas of ANYONE they don’t agree with.”
Just how is our criticism of the Left, “badgering” as you call it, depriving any Lefties of the privilege of freely telling their lies? And just how is our exposing them a breach of freedom of speech? And why do you take it upon yourself to try to intimidate us to cease and desist from giving them the “badgering” they richly deserve?
Remember, it isn’t for what they honestly believe that we treat them with such disrespect, but for the multiple attempts to stab us in the back.
You’re such a typical Lefty. You can’t even see your own shrieking hypocrisy. Its impossible not to laugh when you are telling US to shut up, because you don’t like our holding them accountable for their abhorrent behavior. Our criticism doesn’t deprive them of ANYTHING, anymore than your criticism of us deprives us of our right to speak freely, though that IS what you expressly say you want to do.
Like you say, it is (for now) still a free country, and as long as it is I will say whatever I like. If you don’t like that, too bad. So, thank you ‘little professor’ for your sermon. Now, go preach it to the folks at Leftist Central, and see if they treat you even half as nicely as I have.
____________________________________________________________
“I have also done research on universal healthcare in other countries and now know that it can be successful…”
So, let’s see what you’ve got. I.e., ‘put up, or shut up’, junior.
The Lefties always SAY they have “proof” of what they spew, but for some reason they are NEVER forthcoming with it.
Yes indeed.
As Yon said above: bring it.
Let’s see the “research” that you have done.
Maybe you can tell us about the pregnant women forced to give birth in hallways or on sidewalks due to the failure of the socialized medical system of their country.
Maybe you can tell us all about the man left to thirst to death because medical staffers didn’t provide him with even a minimal level of care.
Maybe you can tell us all about the 10,000 plus people who die needlessly of cancer in Britain each and every year.
Since you claim that doctors love this bill so much, perhaps you can explain why 46% or so have said that they would leave the field of medicine, seeking careers elsewhere.
Yes, I truly do look forward to your research.
Exit question: Can you show me which of the enumerated powers allows Congress to get involved in health care in the fashion this bill does and how, specifically, that Power applies?
Since you must continue to hone in on minor things from my post and the issue at hand, which continues to be health care if I am reading the title correctly, I will address the “badgering” as I stated earlier. I called it badgering in the same sentence that I said “disappointed” so I will clarify. I am simply pointing out that there seems to be quite a bit of discontent with the point of view of the liberal side of the argument and I am simply trying to point out that the comments here are geared toward discounting anything from the left and honing in on small portions of what is being written- in this case you seem to be addressing the comments in my posts that you don’t like, or that you deem to be negative, or pointed. I am writing in defense of the health care bill and what I see as a misunderstanding of what has been passed. If you want to have arguments about what you perceive as attacks then maybe you should find another forum of discussion for that. One of the main points I was trying to bring up was that the forum here has drifted completely away from the original topic- health care and the supposed national sales tax, or VAT.
If I am being hypocritical, as you state, about the health care bill, universal health care in general, or about the national sales tax, I appreciate you views and input but to say that I am hypocritical in general is not a very fair statement. And no where did I tell anyone to shut up. I listen to all views, otherwise I wouldn’t be in this forum trying to see different perspectives of fellow Americans. If you are trying to read between the lines of what I wrote I believe there are other posts above that are pretty clear about not reading between the lines (in reference to Karl Rove I think). I don’t believe I ever used the word ‘criticism’ either. I try not to criticize unless I believe something is wrong or in the wrong direction.
You are absolutely right about this being a free country, at least we can agree on something, that is a start. There is no need to address your last two lines….I don’t believe I came here to point fingers or call anyone names, like I stated before I came here for what I hoped would be a constructive discussion on the topics of health care and the supposed national sales tax. You can take my writing style and points however you like, but I don’t believe you have brought anything to the table (in your replies to me at least) on the subject topics……
Thanks.
Here is the beginning of an article about the German health care system, which also happens to be the oldest. The full article can be found at http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91931036.
July 2, 2008
Germany, by many measures, has one of the world’s most successful health care systems — providing good care for everybody for much less than many other countries spend.
Nearly every German has ready access to doctors, cheap drugs, high-tech medicine, dental care, nursing homes and home care. All this — and Germany spends about half what the United States does per person.
“The system is really good,” says Dr. Christoph Leibl, a general practitioner in the little middle-class town of Willich, near Dusseldorf in western Germany. “As far as the medical treatment and stuff is concerned, in my opinion it’s very good.”
One way it accomplishes this is by putting doctors on a budget.
@CBrown:
Hmmmm….
Great advice. Perhaps you should follow it.
Here is a good article from the NYT:
-Overhaul Will Lower the Costs of Being a Woman
Being a woman is no longer a pre-existing condition. That’s the new mantra, repeated triumphantly by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, Senator Barbara A. Mikulski and other advocates for women’s health. But what does it mean?
In the broadest sense, the new health care law forbids sex discrimination in health insurance. Previously, there was no such ban, and insurance companies took full advantage of the void.
Full article found at http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/30/health/30women.html?ref=health.
Here is one of my personal favorites:
In 2002, U.S. citizens spent more than $5,260 per capita for their health care. This represented a 53% premium over any other country in the OECD list. That trend continues to this day, and it is a major catalytic factor in the health care reform movement championed by the Obama administration.
Health Affairs concludes that the two main factors in the high U.S. health care costs are:
Defensive medicine (which leads to higher diagnostic rates and a hyper-sensitive population of doctors due to the fear of medical malpractice claims), and
The high rates of emergency care resources vs other industrialized nations. Of course, the article in the journal tends not to oversimplify and cites numerous other potential reasons.
Whatever the case, health care spending has ballooned far beyond that of any other country (as the graph above illustrates). Where the proposed reform will take us from here is anybody’s best guess.
This article with the graph can be found at http://www.medhealthinsurance.com/blog/inflated-health-costs-graph/.
Thanks.
I can handle the attacks….just lending my perception. If you take offense then I apologize. I didn’t come here to attack people, I came for the constructive discussion on health care.
@CBrown:
Bull Crap.
You couldn’t even get through five lines of your very first post on this site without attacking the participants here.
Perhaps you’d like to focus on the issues that I raised in post 77. Or perhaps not.
You’re way late for that conversation.
Here’s a link to our archives so you can bring yourself up to speed.
Exit question: What are European cancer survival rates in comparison to those in the US?
@CBrown:
You want medical costs to come down? Institute tort reform. Why? Because it works. And you don’t need a national take-over of the Health sector of the economy for that. See also here. (there’s no tort reform in the Obama package)
And just how is it that Charley Brown is getting so excited over Obama’s plan when it will actually cost us MORE than if left alone.
Let’s see if I’ve got CB’s logic correct. American health care costs more than some foreign plans, therefore we should make it more expensive. Hmmmm, that’s odd…., well, never mind. After all, Obama’s such a financial wizard, I’m sure everything will be OK, ….or not.
Oh, and they’ve been running the Post Office for as long as America has existed, …and they STILL can’t get THAT right. But don’t you worry, they can run a much larger and more complex system, …because Charley Brown says they can.
What could go wrong?
@Aye Chihuahua:
Please, Aye, where are your manners. You forgot to say, “Thanks for the input.”
Aye Chihuahua,
I didn’t read your first post fully before, but first I will note that I provided websites for the things I have posted. I’m not sure where you get your information from but am interested to read them.
Secondly, I don’t need to look at your archives, I am replying to this thread.
Thirdly, I am not sure that 5 lines deep into my very 1st post there was an attack. I am pretty sure I was trying to illustrate a point.
If you feel that your input is unwelcome or that I am not reading your posts then so be it. I am trying to be nice and trying to relay that I am actually reading your inputs.
So, thanks.
In regards to “national takeover” of healthcare, I am pretty sure that the gov has not taken over healthcare, the public option has not passed. The gov is instituting an oversight program to ensure that insurance companies provide affordable insurance to everyone.
Next, on the cost……I have read the CBO report on healthcare and read the reports about how much it costs us. This is not a fix everything at once plan but is projected to save a ton of money. So the CBO numbers are published and public, you are stating that it costs more without any reference?
In response to the post about doctors potentially leaving the profession over this health care bill, here is one article that addresses that poll- http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=527698.
The poll does in fact exist…….but I will point out a couple of things here-
1. 45% would consider leaving their profession if the bill passes.
-I agree. with the emphasis on “would consider.” Not a very good gage in my opinion. I would say that coupled with the poll at http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/poll_most_in_us_don_like_their_jobs_4iRFvxrVqLk3mxtMVmCULO
these numbers make sense. The 2nd poll shows that 55% of all job holders are not satisfied with their jobs and could fall under the category of “would consider leaving their profession.” I’m not sure that those numbers are that defensible in either case.
2. The next number was “65% said they opposed the government’s attempts at taking over the health care system. Just 33% supported it.”
-Well, since the original poll was completed in August last year the numbers are not correct. I’m pretty sure that people were still concerned about a real government takeover of health care through the public option. That didn’t happen. The gov didn’t takeover healthcare so at this point that number is pretty void.
3. I would be willing to bet, and I’m pretty sure that you would agree, that 45% of doctors will not be leaving their jobs……especially if they don’t have any other training/experience. I haven’t read a ton of stories about professionals leaving their jobs for less pay and benefits (although some have).
Tort Reform.
Much like buying insurance across state lines, I like the idea. I don’t fully understand why we weren’t able to get those into the bill in some way, shape, or form. But I also don’t think those were good reasons for the GOP to attempt to derail the bill.
Here is another website that discusses tort reform and how much it could save us (from the CBO):
http://www.aaos.org/news/aaosnow/feb10/managing4.asp
I believe it relies on some of the same information you provided with your link. And sorry, I didn’t see your links after the first read. I will review them.
@CBrown:
“I have read the CBO report on healthcare and read the reports about how much it costs us.”
Which CBO report did you read? Evidently not the one that says it’ll cost $2 trillion?
“CBO: Obamacare Would Cost Over $2 Trillion”
“In regards to “national takeover” of healthcare, I am pretty sure that the gov has not taken over healthcare, the public option has not passed.”
Your “pretty sure?”
“The gov is instituting an oversight program to ensure that insurance companies provide affordable insurance to everyone.”
You are delusional.
It’s been ever so fun, but I’ve got other things to do. Good night.
@CBrown:
“I don’t fully understand why we weren’t able to get those into the bill in some way, shape, or form.”
The bill’s already passed. It’s too late. Besides, trial lawyers oppose it, and since they are a very powerful force in the Democrat machine, it won’t happen as long as Dems are in control.
p.s. – you haven’t yet answered Aye’s “Exit question: What are European cancer survival rates in comparison to those in the US?.”
Now, really, Good night.
Here is a chart that illustrates the rising costs of healthcare per family through 2018. This shows the rising costs before the bill was even drafted. So I am not sure that the data you provided from the gateway pundit site is any different.
http://www.kff.org/insurance/upload/7692_02.pdf
I understand that I haven’t dis-proven your post but based on the comparison I am not sure your post has proven that the costs would any different.
Yonason,
You didn’t link the CBO site. You linked an article about the CBO numbers which doesn’t tell the whole truth. Sorry, I am referring to the actual CBO report from the CBO website.
In regards to the “pretty sure,” that was a feeble attempt at sarcasm in writing. I will change that to “this is not a gov takeover of healthcare.” The public option did not pass, the gov does not offer insurance, the gov does not run anything in the healthcare system. I hope that clears it up. I will state again that it is an oversight program, that’s it. No gov hands in anything. Public option is the option for individuals to purchase insurance from the gov for a cheaper price. Some people want this either for a cheaper plan or to drive costs down in the private sector.
My point about Tort reform not getting in the bill was that I like the idea of Tort reform and buying insurance across state lines. I was making the point that I don’t know why those didn’t get into the bill. However, I will say that now that the bill is passed we probably (as a country) have a better chance of getting that in the national plan over time.
In answer to the exit question, I don’t know, I have never looked that information up. I would imagine that the survival rate is significantly different otherwise he or she wouldn’t have asked the question. I will definitely check on it.
Good night.
I did a check on the cancer survival rates and see that from this article, http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/secondhandsmoke/2009/07/21/most-cancer-survival-rates-in-usa-better-than-europe-and-canada/,
we outdo Europe everytime. Then I checked another site, http://www.webmd.com/cancer/news/20080716/cancer-survival-rates-vary-by-country, and discovered that the first site wasn’t quite telling the whole truth. The 1st site is attempting to point out that European countries, with universal healthcare, are worse off than the US when it comes to cancer survival rates.
Hmmmm……check the other site and you will see that we are actually on par with Japan and France (both universal healthcare countries). It is easy to use the 1st study and claim that we have the best cancer survival rates in the world without needing a universal healthcare system. My response is that makes complete sense, we spend more per capita on health care, so the correlation is pretty easy. France and Japan do manage to run a universal healthcare system, have lower costs, and still manage to curb cancer just as effectively. That to me is a better system and it will cost me less. Addtionally, I will direct you to this site: http://www.medhealthinsurance.com/blog/inflated-health-costs-graph/.
If you review the graph at that site you will notice that, regardless of cancer survival rates, we are well behind those same European countries in our lifespan numbers.
Sorry, but the numbers just don’t wash for that one.
Sorry, I missed another Exit question: Can you show me which of the enumerated powers allows Congress to get involved in health care in the fashion this bill does and how, specifically, that Power applies?
I believe this question refers to the issue of “forcing” people to purchase health insurance. But first I will pose a question to you:
-30 million people don’t have health insurance and they go to the ER. How much does this cost taxpayers?
Those same 30 million people now buy health insurance and now see doctors instead of clogging up the ER. How much does that cost taxpayers?
Now, to the question: First, the gov has been forcing us to pay into social security, medicare, and medicaid for decades. How is the current bill any different than that? Next, when a person/family does not pay for insurance the IRS calculates how much they should have paid (2.5 percent of household income, or $695 for individuals and up to $2,085 a year for families) and puts a tax on those families. Some have called this a fine but that could be debated either way. I see that if that non-buyer is scheduled to receive a refund from the IRS then that refund will be reduced to make up for their insurance, if they owe the gov then they will be billed for the difference. The IRS is covered under the constitution and this “tax” is being enforced through IRS tax rules not by the constitution and thus there is no answer to your question because it doesn’t fall under congressional rules. This is the biggest reason why the dems think that any lawsuit against the bill will fail, not to mention that if the lawsuits fail then it is likely that social security, medicare, and medicaid will all come under fire.
My personal belief is that we are paying for the healthcare for a majority of poor people now….right? Because when they get sick they go to the ER, get treated, and in general don’t pay the bill- we taxpayers get stuck with the bill. If those 30 million people are now covered under insurance now they are paying for most of the care themselves, which saves us taxpayers money. I’m sure you can argue against that concept but that is just a small portion of the whole process.
I can understand the anger of the majority of AMERICANS,the government has no business in the STATES BUSINESS and the people knows it,, they keep telling the leader that HE IS THERE TO SERVE THE AMERICANS,,NOT THE OTHERS COUNTRYS he his not there to change AMERICA and change the CONSTITUTION that is responsible for THE UNITEDSTATES OF AMERICA to become a SUPERPOWER regarded favorebly by all the world except the ennemies of the world and AMERICA. where,THE FREEDOM is never to be challenge because it has shown it’s proof standing through centurys, as a REPUBLIC where all have a chance to success, no matter who in the world try to disrupt,,by their influences of their desire to install instead ,A WORLD ORDER,,well it wont work no matter how hard they push it,,thePEOPLE have spoken…
Interesting that you completely missed the tone first initiated by the lefty posters in this thread, strange that you would not be disappointed with their opening salvos. Am posting a past post from the archives authored by Mata last May. I understand that you have no interest in our archives, but perhaps you could read her opening post regarding healthcare and then scroll down to the comment section to see how the Flopping Aces family responds to the left when they enter the conversation in a civil manner.
Will also include a past comment by one of our authors that addresses some of your comments while responding to a lefty poster, be sure to click his sources:
More interesting information from a lefty blog regarding the healthcare reform bill, life expectancy, etc 😉 :
Now, to the CBO figures, for one thing, they can only analyse figures given to them by Congress, you do recall the doctor fix was not included, collecting up front for services not beginning until much later also skews the results. Mr. Elmdorf has also offered warnings independant of the CBO report, you may want to go back to google, otherwise you can scan a post Aye did. Note the tone of the conversation when our resident arrogant lefty shows up.
9% of our income is paid into healthcare, in Germany it’s 15%, I’ll see your July, 2008 article and lay down a more recent review of Germany’s health care system that is failing much like what we are now seeing in Massachusetts.
BTW, 50% of what MA spends on healthcare is subsidized by the feds, emergency room visits have double and costs have soared since implementation, it’s not working as planned either
Back to Germany:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703746604574461573950211460.html
Missy, unfortunately my tone was not meant to be an “opening salvo” and you have left out some important things from that first post that I thought were complimentary…..”intrigued by the comments…,” “we are all equals regardless of the ideas we bring,” “…do this free of retribution,” “if you have a good and valid point than I can live with it.” So my attempts to illustrate a point are not like by many and my valid point are thus brushed aside, no big deal. If you construe it as an attack then I will modify it. The issue at hand is not attacks, it is the health care bill.
Your first link had great comments/responses……you just illustrated the point I was trying to make with my “opening salvo” of my first post. This thread degraded into a shouting match. The link you provided seemed to be a much more thought out and sane thread. Thanks.
The second link is interesting as well. The constitution references are great. I do agree with the drunk driving and the fire department. The Medicaid answer is not quite complete. Under the rules of Medicaid those who are under the poverty line (I will just call them the poor) MAY qualify for Medicaid. They also need to be disable, blind, pregnant, or fall under a few other qualifiers. So that answer is not complete.
-The gist of what the first guy was saying is that there is a lot of stuff that is not in the constitution. Why? Because it wasn’t around yet. What if we had automobiles when the constitution had been written? Then maybe auto insurance would have been mentioned. If medical costs were extremely high back then I guarantee that our founding fathers would have included something in there.
-If you read the preamble you will find “We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare…” What is the definition of welfare? “the good fortune, health, happiness, prosperity, etc.” Is the first line of a definition. So how do we ensure the welfare of our citizens? Healthcare. There are of course problems with that first line as well. How do we define “defence of our country?” That is an issue that democrats (I am impartial on this one) have been complaining about with the Bush administration since he left office.
I will tell you that I agree that the constitution does not address paying for insurance….because as I stated in a different post that it is covered under IRS rules.
I like the antiaging.com website as well. I will answer this one like I answered the poster who wrote “Which CBO report did you read? Evidently not the one that says it’ll cost $2 trillion?
“CBO: Obamacare Would Cost Over $2 Trillion”
-I really liked that one because the poster insinuated that I hadn’t read the CBO report then sent me a link for an opinion piece about the report. I read the CBO report from the CBO website and made my own interpretations. Same goes here. I interpreted numerous different websites, reports, etc. to determine that for the amount of money we pay per capita for healthcare does not give us a corresponding life expectancy in return. Sorry, I like the guys opinion but I am going to stick with the source document on this one.
As for the doctor fix. When I first read about that I was pretty pissed off. That was a sneaky way of including extra money. But I decided to do research on the topic and found out that this “doctor fix” has actually been around since 1997 when congress pass the “sustainable growth rate” to ensure that Medicare’s costs didn’t outpace economic growth. 1997 wasn’t the time to enforce this because of low health-care costs versus high GDP. This sustainable growth rate would have triggered huge cuts to doctors, and broad outrage among seniors. And thus began the era of “temporary” fixes to Medicare payment. This law stuck around but Congress didn’t want to pass it because of the cuts. So began a routine of invalidating the cuts. This happened in 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2008. Apparently this also made the deficit look smaller than it was because congress (both sides) were using this to claim savings of hundreds of billions of dollars (which they didn’t actually do). Now to present day, dems are trying to get it passed now and I believe it is included in the jobs bill.
-Bottom line is that it is being used as a talking point by health care opposers even though it was originally passed in 1997.
-For the “Obama cooked the books” link, I am sure that we could debate this one for the next decade or until we really find out how everything is going to play out. I have provided a link, you have provided a link. My link is non-partisan, yours is partisan. Not to say that I discount it but I will state again that I will stick with the source document for now.
I will have to address your responses about MA and Germany healthcare separately. But I will say that if you reference any monetary failings of countries for 2008-2010 I’m afraid that we must investigate that further. There are a lot more things than just healthcare that are currently failing because of the economy. And I am sure that we can poke holes in other countries health care systems all day long but that doesn’t disprove that we spend too much for too little return in regards to all citizens, life expectancy, drug costs, and other issues. I will review your stuff about MA and Germany, it looks like you have done a bunch of research and I appreciate your views and perspective.
Hopefully no salvos here……I’ll edit if thats the case.
This is the kind of constructive discussion I was hoping for. Thanks
CBROWN,,hi,how about calculating how many out of 30million people will still not pay the insurance,because they don’t have the money.. did the leaders calculate that money to come in the pot?or ask people to sign IOU like they did themself in their spending spree of the few months?
If some out of the 30 million still refuse to purchase insurance then the IRS is tasked with adding a tax onto their return at the end of the year, as long as they pay taxes. That amount was quoted as being 2.5 percent of household income, or $695 for individuals and up to $2,085 a year for families. I am not sure as to what income level(s) you are referring to for those that cannot afford the insurance but 2.5 percent is not much in return for an insurance plan. No doubt there are some that will still evade payments and unfortunately we will still have to foot the bill for them.
A FEW ‘ISSUES’….
No, CB, as you yourself pointed out in your opening salvo of your first post….
So, is it our not being on topic that has you troubled, or that fact that we are merely “drifting” rather than taking the express, as you seem to prefer?
Guess again, Charley.
Oooooh, sorry, you looooose. The topic is NATIONAL SALES TAX, another grand boondoggle to enrich Democraps and their cronies at Americans’ expense.
_______________________________________________________________
Ahhhemmm….
Yes, with you, such embellishments are to be forgiven and laughed off, but when someone else does it you flame them. No hypocrisy there, eh, Charley Brown?
_______________________________________________________________
…and the link to what you read is…. (he said with eager anticipation). Wake me when you get around to posting it.
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But American Democrat pols have no restraints, and you are blithely untroubled by that?
_______________________________________________________________
(update)
You’re just too funny, CB. Almost as funny as the idiots who gave us that abomination they apparently really didn’t read.
_______________________________________________________________
My point is, as it was in my first rejoinder to you, that you are a mass of contradictions – a pest, a nuisance, who is more interested in nitpicking than in substance, as are most Lefties. And, rather than dispelling my first impression of you, your continued blathering has solidly reinforced it.
The fact is that Obama is destroying America, and fools like you are his willing handmaidens.
@CBrown:
Let’s try again: Can you show me which of the enumerated powers allows Congress to get involved in health care in the fashion this bill does and how, specifically, that Power applies?