In yet another round of ever present “face time” on health care, Obama today delivers a stern message to his was-and-still-almost-is supermajority Congress…. put it to a vote. In this seemingly simple demand, the entire PR stage show of the “health care summit” is laid bare. If Obama cannot achieve his desired goal to lay the groundwork for a single payer health system, he’s not going to allow his failure, alongside his supermajority Congress, to be a victory for the GOP in November.
How does he accomplish this? Quite simple. Stage the summit to show bipartisan cooperation. Throw a few of their ideas in that still do not cure the ideological opposition to the proposed “cure”, ask for a vote that is guaranteed to fail, and voila…. a shrug of the shoulders and out comes the midterms talking points – “it’s not our fault”.
It goes something like this….
We felt health care should be a bipartisan endeavor, therefore we have gone the extra mile to work across the aisle with the GOP. We’ve included the best of their ideas, and they still voted against the bill. It is obvious that the GOP is the “party of no”. They lied to you about the facts in order to gain political power when what they prefer to do is nothing about the rising costs of health care.
Almost sounds sane, yes? That’s what they’re counting on. The appearance of a sane appeal, and a short memory on facts.
Speaking of fact, the media will glide silently over that pesky detail that the Democrats… holding a supermajority… never needed GOP approval for health care. They will be content to be fed another bone to pick with their favorite scapegoat, those evil and radical conservatives. The Dems? The know not to spoil the butter for their bread. They much prefer to blame the GOP rather than point fingers at their own moderate Bluedog Dems.
Another fact the media will gloss over is the *reason* for the continued conservative and GOP opposition to the bill… even with the token incorporated ideas. There’s no *health care costs* reform. Instead, we are being sold health care *insurance* reform as a solution to rising costs of medical supplies, advanced state of the art equipment, drugs and services.
Now, some also believe that we should, instead of doing what I’m proposing, pursue a piecemeal approach to health insurance reform, where we tinker around the edges of this challenge for the next few years. Even those who acknowledge the problem of the uninsured say we just can’t afford to help them right now — which is why the Republican proposal only covers 3 million uninsured Americans while we cover over 31 million.
That’s no freudian slip. Obama has spent his eternal campaign confusing health care costs with insurance reform. And he’s been adept at blinding the O’faithful with the spotlights behind the greek columns, selling the nation a bill of goods. He misses the point that government price fixing of premiums – an action that is illegal in the private sector – is a dangerously inadequate answer for what ails America’s health system… the baseline, break even costs of those who provide medical care.
Instead, Obama suggests capping consumer price for a Cadillac at $25,000, when the car costs $25,000 to manufacture and market. This doesn’t address the mitigating factors that lead to that $25,000 cost to the manufacturer and dealership networks. Nor does it allow for R&D to improve the product line.
But what happens when it costs $30,000 to build and sell that Cadillac because Congress, in their infinite stupidity, decides to add new regulations, taxes and/or costs onto the manufacturer and dealers? Obama would still only be able to pay $25,000 price tag in order to call it a “solution”, and let the loss be absorbed by those providing the product.
This is exactly why many ill-informed believe Obama’s “solution” contains costs. If their purchase price doesn’t rise, it’s “cost containment”… at least until there are no more “Cadillac” manufacturers and dealers, and they’re forced into a Volkswagon for the same $25,000.
For those possessed with a modicum of logic, ponder this. Just how does dictating what an insurer or single payer government system pays a provider change the operational overhead of the provider? When you’re done with that, try this on for size… How long do you think we can continue shorting the medical service providers their overhead costs, and still receive the same quality of service?
Welcome to health care fiscal reality. Cost “reform” vs insurance “reform” That’s the debate in a nutshell.
Health care cost problems lie with such realities as the administration of simple tetanus shot costing $100; a tablet of aspirin that costs twice what a bottle of 500 tablets does at Walmart; outrageous lab fees; and unnecessary tests conducted for litigation protection. Get the picture? Think $650 toilet seats….
And another thing… there doesn’t have to be a huge rigamarow about pre’existing conditions, and I’m bloody well tired of the widespread talking points lies about this. For those of you who didn’t know, Title I of HIPAA prohibits pre’existing conditions for group policies for longer than 12 months. Additionally, they regulate what can be determined pre’existing conditions.
So what’s the inexpensive answer? More groups… not much taxpayer burden in that. And probably doesn’t even need Congress involved. That’s a bonus…
But the most obvious reason this is all a political scam…. vote on *what* bill?? Have you heard even one of the White House press “corpse” ask… “Where is the bill text you want Congress to vote on, Mr. President?”
Echoing movie character, Jerry McQuire: SHOW ME THE MONEY! Or, in this case, SHOW ME THE BILL!
Fact is, there is no bill that resembles Obama’s proposed “reconciliation bill”, posted on WH dot gov. This is where he touted supremely there were GOP ideas incorporated into his new plan. Today, he says he adds yet more GOP ideas.
Where is the bill that incorporates all these ideas, Mr. President?
Or are we, and our elected officials, supposed to take your templates, outlines, speeches and proposals as a substitute for legislative text? Are we supposed to trust you to pass what you have now, and add them later?
The lack of a real bill to vote on is only one fly in the soup. With the legislative rules on the budget reconciliation process, neither the House nor Senate bills would survive in their entirety. Even staunch proponent, WaPo’s Ezra Klein, states reconciliation would not work for these bills because many of the key issues would not fit budget muster.
I’ve argued before that reconciliation will not work for comprehensive health-care reform. Today, Kevin Drum comes to the same conclusion. Stan Collender, a budget expert, backs him up. I go into the reasons in more detail here, but the Health Insurance Exchanges would probably be thrown out. The insurance market reforms would probably be thrown out. Prevention and wellness, modernization, delivery system reforms, and much else would likely be out the window. And we can’t even quite predict what would be lost, so it’s hard to know what would actually work at the end of the day. We could end up with a bill that simply doesn’t work, much as a car doesn’t function without a transmission system.
Kaiser Health News goes into more detail about how the groundwork for this reconciliation, specifically including health care, was already laid down last spring, at the behest of Rahm Emanuel.
Every year, the House and Senate draft a budget resolution – a blueprint of anticipated federal spending and revenues for the coming fiscal year. To get the reconciliation process going, the House and Senate budget committees may include reconciliation instructions to one or more committees in the budget resolution that directs them to produce legislation by a certain date that meets the mandatory spending or tax targets.
~~~If reconciliation is used, the Senate Finance and health committees each are supposed to send proposed changes in laws within their jurisdictions to the Senate Budget Committee with changes that would save $1 billion over the next five years. The House Ways and Means, Education and Labor and Energy and Commerce Committees would face a similar challenge and have to report changes to the House Budget Committee.
Those proposed changes would then be translated by each budget committee into House and Senate bills.
When those bills reach the House and Senate floors, members have a maximum of 20 hours to debate them – and almost no opportunity to offer amendments – before taking a vote. In the Senate, the bill may be challenged on the floor by any senator who asserts that a provision runs afoul of the “Byrd Rule.”
Assuming that the House and Senate bills are approved, they generally are sent to a conference of House and Senate negotiators to be melded into a single piece of legislation. That final conference report, as it is called, is then returned to the floor for a final vote by the two chambers under strict rules that set a timetable for action and that prohibit any amendments. The compromise measure is also subject to Byrd Rule objections. If the bill is passed, it would then be sent to the president for his signature or veto.
With Obama’s supposed GOP add ons, there are a lot of proposed changes that have to be constructed with the “how to’s”, what new agencies and/or councils are created (nothing gets done with new councils or agencies anymore…), and then melded into existing bills, eliminating conflicts. And anything not budget related is discarded, leaving only a shell of the original idea.
Anyone think such a magic bill could be drummed up in acceptable form, presented, debated and passed in Pelosi or Reid’s chambers within Obama’s deadlines? Hang, it’s their own party holding up the coronation for almost a year now. So much for that choice.
The other bill to vote on is the unseen, unpublished version that was concocted by the chosen few in the the back rooms of the WH.
Yet even the majority of Congressional membership hasn’t seen the fruits of that gathering of fiscal vampires, working furiously thru the midnight hours creating this mystery bill. It’s creation was prior to the health care summit, so it doesn’t incorporate Obama’s latest promises.
Nor has the public been privvy to seeing the final text. Call me crazy, but I doubt there is a Democrat, up for election, that is willing to cast the die on their political seats using unseen legislation, and banking on this President’s lip service.
This means that either bill scenario is bound to fail.
Obama’s demand today was laying down the political gauntlet for an election ploy. This POTUS and his political handlers are no fools, and stage plays are second nature skills to community organizers. The plot was simple, as I paraphrased above… appear to be bipartisan, force the issue to the floor incomplete, cry foul and paint the GOP as the enemy – all in time for the mid terms.
The goal? Keep majority power, and live to fight another day.
Sans divine intervention, this POTUS and his team of PR/community organizers know they’ve virtually lost this battle. What we see now is all part of regrouping in the back rooms. They are no longer seeking health care… they are seeking political redemption in time for the election.
If they succeed, the battles begin anew.
UPDATE: Manu Raju and Carrie Budoff Brown are reporting that Sen Tom Harkin told Politico that his chamber has decided to attempt the reconciliation route. They must first prove to Pelosi that the Senate has the needed votes, and she will set to work on the House membership to pass the Senate bill as is, “…followed by a package of fixes through reconciliation.”
In the interim, the phantom bill is still floating around, as Harkin notes they are “coming to closure” on legislative language to send to the CBO for analysis… which could take a few weeks.
This means they are asking House members to accept, on faith, that the Senate can successfully make any promised “fixes”, sans difficulty. Harkin says they will make “a convincing gesture”….. uh huh.
Does this alter my opinion this is still a failed attempt? Not in the least. Never suspected they wouldn’t try when I penned this piece. They have no other choice but to force a vote, somehow, in order to move on thru the election cycle. As I pointed out in a comment below, a failed attempt, successfully blamed on the GOP, is superior to continued gridlock.
To get a pulse on the elected ones’, Hugh Hewitt has provided “the hit list” of Dem targets.
UPDATE #2: The Hill reports Howard Dean warning passage of current bills would do more harm than good.
“The plan, as it comes from the Senate, hangs out every Democrat who’s running for office to dry — including the president, in 2012, because it makes him defend a plan that isn’t in effect essentially yet,” Dean said during an appearance on the liberal Bill Press Radio Show.
Dean, who has clashed publicly with the White House over the healthcare proposals favored by the administration, said that by passing the bills under consideration, Democrats would essentially be conceding defeat to Republicans.
Vietnam era Navy wife, indy/conservative, and an official California escapee now residing as a red speck in the sea of Oregon blue.
It is very funny. The Dem controlled House* is set to do a “majority rules” vote on a bill that passed the Dem controlled Senate** by a 60-40 margin. But GOPers, who the voters did NOT want in control over the House, the Senate or the White House, have their panties in a bunch because they cannot derail what the majority of the representatives in Congress support. You cons have a VERY warped definition of “democracy”, one that involves the losers calling the shots and the winners forced to cow tow to those that the voters rejected.
Here is a hint, cons — pick your battles better. You had several years to address the health care issue, but y’all did nothing but make it worse by passing a large unpaid-for entitlement, the drug bill. Now that the Dems are working to clean up the mess you made even worse, why not step aside and let the adults work? Save your bluster for something better like . . . oh, I don’t know, cutting off unemployment benefits and slashing Medicare payments doctors . . ., never mind . . . you already did that one.
*Dem controlled because the voters rejected GOPers en masse during the election.
** Ditto.
The world has changed, one thing porkulus should have taught the Democrats, things on the net never go away.
@BRob:
Pssstt….
We are not governed as a “democracy” nor do we live under the principles of “majority rules”.
We are a representative republic where Congress represents the will of the People under the limitations and provisions of the US Constitution. The People have been expressing their opposition to this health care debacle for over a year now. How much more clear can The People be?
The Founders were very careful to establish a system in which the “majority” would NOT rule and run rough shod over the wishes of the minority.
Civics 101 and basic US History. Learn it. Love it. Live it.
Little dog — you missed the bigger point while trying to recite talking points you saw, but don’t actually understand. My point is one you cons don’t seem to grasp.
You lost the election. You cons proposed your vision of government and the voters said “No thanks. We’ll go with the Dems.” And go with the Dems they did . . . big time. That is why the GOP is in the severe minority in the House, the Senate, the governorships and the state legislatures, too.
When you LOSE THE ELECTION you do not get the call the shots. It’s like the bitter ex-girlfriend trying to pick the flowers and the menu for her now-engaged ex-boyfriend’s wedding reception. Making the bride say “Uh, hello! If this was your show, you would be the one engaged! But you ain’t, so step the fcuk off!”
If you cons AGAIN control the House, the Senate and the White House,* you can then remake the health care system in your own image. But when you folks had that chance, all you did was pass health care savings accounts (actually, not a bad idea, just wimpy) and the drug bill — a monstrously bad idea that made the looming entitlement deluge even worse. But right now, you are in the role of spectator. You had your chance to govern and you f-ed it up. Which is why you all got fired. Remember your place, respect the majority’s right to govern and stop the needless obstruction. Jim Bunning indeed . . . .
*if the voters ever let you.
Wow, BRob. You’ve taken seminar posting to new heights!
@BRob:
Governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed.
Throughout history, many governments have fallen because the governed were not consulted.
The current health care “bill” (in quotations, because the thing itself does not exist) is on course to be made into law behind closed doors, against the expressed will of the vast majority of the people, for the political benefit of one person: the President.
The motivation for the health care “bill” is to provide a permanent Democratic voting majority in the United States, by the forced unionization of all health care employees. The Union will, of course, use its dues to elect Democrats, and use its membership to campaign for Democrats.
The SEIU is now the closest ally of Obama, and all of its efforts are intended to make certain that no Republican stands a chance of being elected.
Obama cannot unilaterally suspend the Constitution; he has to force a crisis in order to do so. The crisis is the destruction of the dollar, by radical overspending and subsequent deflation. The way you spread the wealth around is to devalue the currency, make every $100 in assets worth $1, and right away you have leveled the playing field. Warren Buffett is no longer worth $50 billion, he is only worth $500 million. Though it is possible that multimillionaires will face stiffer devaluation. Possibly even asset seizure.
What is intended when China calls all of our T-bills? Where are the assets to pay that debt?
Do we go the way of the Weimar Republic?
We are in a heap of trouble.
@BRob:
I wonder if that’s the advice you would have given to these guys:
Or to this lady:
Nah, that would require both consistency and intellectual honesty both of which you are sorely lacking.
For those keeping score at home, the four black gentlemen in the first photograph are people who had the courage to do a lunch counter sit-in at Woolworth’s in Greensboro, NC in order to protest racial discrimination.
The second is Rosa Parks, who refused to go sit at the back of the bus.
BRob
#1 – The job of a representative is to represent the people in their district, not their own personal agenda at the expense of those same people they are to represent.
#2 – No where in Article I, Section 8 does it say that congress has the right to legislate healthcare. The constitution was set up to lay out the powers of the federal government, and to limit them to those SPECIFICALLY enumerated. All other powers, under the 10th Amendment, are reserved to the states themselves, or to the people.
Because of those two points, and in the context of healthcare reform, not only does congress NOT have the power to make law on such, but when every poll shows overwhelming opposition to the ideas and specific bills passed by either the senate or house, congress and the president, by going forward with this, is acting in opposition to the will of the people.
BROB your words are like a BOOMERANG if you know what it is and also AYE ‘s name is SIR AYE to you with respect bye
Let’s see, the Democrats didn’t need a Republican vote to pass this botched piece of whale crap and they couldn’t get it done. Maybe these Trolls should go throw manure at recalcitrant Dems, the ones with enough courage to stand up to tyranny.
Lets see Obama says “the public deserves an up or down vote on his ObamaCare, well I say the ONLY thing the pubic deserves is a Constitutional Government, that was established by our founding fathers. I doubt that very few of the people in Washington DC kown what’s in the Constitution, much less understand what it stands for.
You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence. – Charles Austin Beard
“Ask for a vote that’s guaranteed to fail?” Are you really suggesting that Hussein and Co WANT this heath care fraud to FAIL?? An opportunity to enslave 300 million people, utterly control everything Americans do, think, own, purchase, eat, drink, drive and believe, from the day they are born until the day they are told to take the blue pill and die, as actual care would be too expensive?? You’re KIDDING, right?
Mathman nails it on the head. Our situation mirrors the Wiemar Republic very badly, just instead of War compensations we have T-Bill compensations due to Government Hurbis of allowing a foriegn hostile Nation to consume government bonds. For the first time our Nation’s history, a foreign Government is bankrolling our Federal Government and is using its investments as a form of weapon against our people.
First of all, the topic of this thread happens to be just why Obama is forcing a vote facing failure using either procedure. I have posited it’s political expedience, and put my case forth. If you have all another explanation for such behavior, I’d sure like to hear it. Because for all the talk about reconciliation being bandied around, it’s a highly unlikely possibility. What they put in the reconciliation machine will not resemble what comes out at the other end.
But my my, think for a minute of the manipulation being done. They lay the “reconciliation” media bombs, the GOP and conservatives get in an uproar about the lack of political morality. The Dems, of course, do not use reconciliation and therefore show themselves to be above the immoral fray.
Doesn’t anyone remember a thing about Alinsky tactics here? Do you ever wonder if rumors and news making it’s way into the headlines is an original thought of a journalist, or a planned leak as part of an electoral agenda? Right now, the Dems are slipping down the chute in many states. Surely you don’t believe they plan to take this loss onto themselves without spinning it another way for November, do you?
The counter argument is to recognize their strategy, and expose it for the lies upon which it is founded – loudly and clearly for the world to hear. Predict what the opponent is doing in a public forum, and the opponent must either alter their strategy, or spend time defending the lies exposed at the onset.
@OLDPUPPYMAX, Obama knows this isn’t going thru. It would take Pelosi, Chicago-arming her House members into embracing the Senate version as is. They do not have the votes for that, but she vows to try anyway. There is a chance she could succeed, but slim at best. And we’ve already seen that buying off Congressional members for votes doesn’t play well in the public arena.
The other option is to completely mutilate the bill with budget reconciliation. A time consuming process with multiple committees which, when complete, would have most of the prime pieces lying on the roadside. That is also a losing proposition.
The third is to allow the “chosen few” bill version concocted under cover of darkness, into the light. They’ll have to furiously bring that up to date to meet Obama’s latest promises of GOP points inclusion. It’s not been seen, read, nor has the CBO done any analysis since it’s a phantom document. You can’t just produce a bill created outside the budget reconciliation rules and expect to slide that thru now. It would have to go back thru both chambers for a vote. Possible, perhaps… but unlikely with the chasms of disagreement between the chambers and the Dems themselves. As I said, the GOP are simply window dressing here.
Obama and his merry ilk are well aware that the chances of getting this passed require a miracle… or a serious amount of thug threats. Therefore they are planning for an expected loss, and attempting to lay in their talking points for November. That plan focuses around blaming the GOP for a split supermajority Dem leadership’s disconnect with mainstream Democrats.
What Obama knows is this gridlock cannot continue thru campaign season without it hurting the Dems, as all the sundry polls show around the country. So the plan is simple… force the vote to bring it to a close (for now), and blame the GOP. The summit’s always been a set up, and now it’s quite clear the plot.
Obama and handlers are, if nothing else, masters at community organizing. So they are doing what they do best. They are setting up the GOP as the sacrificial lamb, and themselves as the benevolent masters for the season. The health care battle, as we know it, is over for now.
The health summit was always an obvious set up. My initial thougt it was done just to embarrass the GOP. Certainly threw them for a loop when the the opposite happened. But I should have thought further ahead, as I’m doing now. It was Obama, forcing a vote on any losing option that gave me the heads up.
BRob. I firmly believe that if Mickey Mouse had run against a Republican in the last election, he would have won. There were people that hated Bush and there were those that didn’t have a clue but were told to hate Bush. Additionally, the press was always positive on barry, barack, steve, or whatever his name is, and was negative against the opposition. Case in point. They took McCain down to the mat in regard to his birth certificate, and the other? ah he said he was born here and that was good enough for them.
Read bill ayers book. he states the United States of America will be destroyed from within. Check out the limited back ground of barry, barack, steve, or whatever his name is and you will see he was raised by progressive facists/communists and mentored by the same. His ideology is anti-American. his ethics are islamic/muslim. This man hates the United States and what it stands for. His only agenda is to take total control and become the dictator and emperor. Personally I believe his communist czars are his shadow government and soon will render the Congress and Senate invalid.
The summit was nothing but a dog and pony show to tell the people how bad the Republicans are. Well, that didn’t happen. The Republicans were concise and offered compromises. barry, barack, steve, or whatever his name is wanted nothing of that talk. In addition, his deathcare plan is nothing more than a cleansing of those he deems not warrantable for life, which includes the elderly and those who are critically and/or terminally ill. I also firmly believe the deathcare plan is actually about control and power and not about giving anything to the people. Regardless I don’t understand how anything that will cost consumers between 7K and 10K a year be called “free”. Nothing is free. The taxpayers, their families and their families after that will be paying for this debacle.
This man is a danger to our country. We don’t have to look for the enemy because he is already within.
As an aside I noticed some of the law suits in regard to his birth certificates/school records et al are now being accepted for review. This tells a lot. Even those who were drunk on the kool aid are now backing off. They realize that sanctity and freedoms of this great country is at stake.
I love my country and hate what this man is doing to her. May he be impeached before he does irreversible damage.
MATA i must say it again you are a smart wolf if you don’t mine the comparison ,they can fool some but they wont fool you,bye
disenchanted —
So you are a birther? That’s all I needed to know!
Little dog —
You are just too funny! You are a conservative . . . part of the very movement that OPPOSED the anti-segregation efforts, especially the efforts to deseg the lunch counters under the Commerce Clause of the US Constitution. But you have the audacity to try to misapropriate the freedom riders and Rosa Parks’ images for your own wacky right wing screeds?
And to compare the wingnuts in the House and Senate who are trying to derail healthcare . . . you compare them to the freedom riders . . . and Rosa Parks . . . who risked their lives and lost their lives to FINALLY upend Jim Crow? What’s next? You gonna compare Lisa Murkowski opposing health care to Viola Liuzzo getting killed opposing Klan terrorism of Black voters?
I guess you DON’T have any shame, after all!
@BRob:
You never answered the question there Mr. ParaLegal2.
So, would you have offered that same advice to the people in those photographs?
“Remember your place” indeed.
Sources please.
Errr….the “wingnuts” as you so fondly refer to them don’t have the votes to stop anything.
Your side had the coveted 60 vote majority and couldn’t get it done.
No one to blame for that failure except the Dims.
Again, basic US history, basic civics.
Exit question: When you blog from work, during working hours, and presumably, from an employer owned and provided machine, is that billable time…or are you simply scamming money from your employer under the guise of lookin’ busy on the computer?
Mathman —
So much to respond to:
“Governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed. Throughout history, many governments have fallen because the governed were not consulted.”
Gotcha so far . . .
“The current health care ‘bill’ (in quotations, because the thing itself does not exist) is on course to be made into law behind closed doors, against the expressed will of the vast majority of the people, for the political benefit of one person: the President.”
So much error here. First, there is a bill; it was passed by the Senate (an body of duly elected representatives) by a 60-40 margin. It is now going to the House (another body of elected representatives. Then both bodies MAY vote to amend that through a simple majority vote of those same elected reps. To call that “against the will” of the people is simply nuts.
And to benefit himself — how would he benefiot personally? He already has lifetime health care. And if it is the utter failure that you cons keep saying it will be, it would be a failure on HIS watch. Ah, but I detect an underlying admission here — you know it will make him more popular, don’t you!
“The motivation for the health care ‘bill’ is to provide a permanent Democratic voting majority in the United States, by the forced unionization of all health care employees.”
W.t.f.? The bill has nothing to do whatsoever with unionization. As for the permanent Dem majority — wouldn’t this ruin the Dem party if you cons are right and it destroys the American health care system? Uh, yeah!
“The Union will, of course, use its dues to elect Democrats, and use its membership to campaign for Democrats.”
As they always have, sometimes effectively, sometimes not. Your point?
“The SEIU is now the closest ally of Obama, and all of its efforts are intended to make certain that no Republican stands a chance of being elected.”
See the response above.
“Obama cannot unilaterally suspend the Constitution; he has to force a crisis in order to do so.”
“The crisis is the destruction of the dollar, by radical overspending and subsequent deflation.”
If you cons truly think this is a risk, then you need to get behind the Obama deficit reduction commission. Alas, the last time I checked, the cons are already scheduling the boycott and setting up their talkiing points to dismiss the commissions conclusions and recommendations. So either you want the “radical overspending and subsequent deflation” to continue, or you are not serious in raising these as risks.
“The way you spread the wealth around is to devalue the currency, make every $100 in assets worth $1, and right away you have leveled the playing field. Warren Buffett is no longer worth $50 billion, he is only worth $500 million. Though it is possible that multimillionaires will face stiffer devaluation. Possibly even asset seizure.”
And monkeys may fly out your butt, too. Just as likely as the scenario you depict.
“What is intended when China calls all of our T-bills? Where are the assets to pay that debt?
Do we go the way of the Weimar Republic? We are in a heap of trouble.”
Funny, when the GOP Congress was borrowing from the ChiComs instead of paying for their overspending through tax increases or cutting other programs, no one on the right seemed to care about this risk. But as I stated before — if you are serious about the deficit and debt, then you need to be hammering your fellow GOPers to get with the program about the deficit reduction commission and stop whining about “who’s going to pick the chairman?” and “are all my friends going to be invited to the meetings?” and other b.s. I would expect to hear from my eighth grader’s friends discussing their school party planning committee.
Little dog —
When you are at home tonight at 8 p.m. eating dog food from a can, I will still be in the office working. So I like to take little breaks now and then. Keeps the mind fresh and the juices flowing.
On conservatives opposing the Civil Rights movement . . . you are joking, right? Oh . . maybe you really don’t know . . . how about this link.
http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/12/civil-rights-act-was-opposed-by-conservatives.php
or this one
http://www.claremont.org/publications/crb/id.1543/article_detail.asp.
Either one is a good starting point. In sum, the conservatives backed the segegationists, not the integrationists. Simply a matter of history that cannot be changed or reasonable challenged. The National Review probably has scrubbed their archives, but they posted article after article after article opposing the very Freedom Riders that you have in your picture. They were on the side of Bull Connor and the Klan, not the protesters.
Given this history, for you to then take those pictures and try to link what those heroes risked (their lives) in opposition to what you cons stood for, and then act as if that is somehow . . . what . . comparable to John Boehner whining from the back bench about a majority rules vote on health care? That is just contemptable. W.t.f. were you thinking?
I used to hear that kind of b.s. in law school, whiney wealthy conservatives comparing their “plight” as “discrete and insular minorities” to Jim Crow era Black people in Mississippi. All I can say is: the day people are lynching you from a tree or shooting you and burying your bodies in an earthen dam for being a conservative, that is the day you can used the Freedom Riders pictures. Until then, s.t.f.u. and win some elections. Then you can get to work trying to undo what the majority Dems will do with this bill . . . which is cover 30 million non-uncovered Americans. Good luck with selling that . . . .
As for the Dems and “couldn’t get it done” . . . I have no idea what you are talking about. Lots of intentional confusion being sown on the right about this “nuclear option” crap. The fact is that the Senate passed a bill and the House Dems are going to vote on that bill. There may or may not be a second vote to alter it a bit. But there is a bill that is done already. And that will be the law of the land unless and until it is altered, whether through reconciliation or some other process.
Aye, you don’t expect an answer, really, do you?
EDIT: I stand corrected. Amazing.
“I’ll have those ni**ers voting Democrat for the next 200 years!”
-Lyndon Baines Johnson (D) (Lib) (Not Conservative)
Rbob:”When you LOSE THE ELECTION you do not get the call the shots.”
Ummmm NO. You STILL represent the people that elected you. GUESS WHAT! The people aren’t wanting it.
So, you are doing the very liberal elitist thinking of “We Won. We can do what we want. DAMN what the people want!!!”
I bet you were one of those screaming back when Bush was going to use the “nuclear option” and are now A.O.K with it.
What a good little lemming you are bob. Keep “steppzing vit zat partzy line.”
BRob:”disenchanted –So you are a birther? That’s all I needed to know!”
WOW! I See you took the advanced class of Jumping to conclusions. You talk about people MISSING the point – well bob – you totally missed the point and did the very liberal thing liberals do. You translated it and put your spin on it. “What? You don’t like brown ice cream? OH! So, you’re a racist. All I needed to know!”
So … in simple english so you can follow along with those two things you have left called brain cells.
* The press took McCain to the carpet on his Birth certificate when it was questioned.
* The press DID NOT take Obama to the carpet on his Birth certificate when it was questioned.
Its called … (are you with me bob? Are you getting this?) PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT/FAVORITISM.
Do you understand those words? Are you sure? Here’s another …
FAIR AND IMPARTIAL – see, the MSM showed they were NEITHER when they did NOT hold BOTH candidates to the same level and make EACH present their evidence.
Now, is that simple enough for you or do I need to pull out DICK AND JANE examples?
Oh and if I offended you, sorry – you seem to condescend to those above, I’m just taking it to the next level and returning the favor. Surely you get that and will scream foul like a good little liberal. AND Hey! If *I* hurt your feelings maybe you can get a law passed … I mean people can’t just run around and hurt your feelings can they?
“To be fair, the Lyndon B. Johnson quote is third hand, reportedly said by Johnson to two governors aboard Air Force One. The circumstances are reported in Robert Kessler’s book Inside the White House.” -Baldilocks
http://baldilocks.typepad.com/baldilocks/2004/07/from_the_washin.html
We like to have a balance to our lunatics, billy bob. We tolerate you as a fringer, as well as the birthers, but only to a minimal extent before you find yourselves in the spam bin.
On FA, the author is the thread moderator. You will not hijack this thread about reconciliation and healthcare to repeat your civil rights, racist screed here. The above comment #21 will stand. Continue on that path and I will personally delete it. Just like the judge in your courtroom, this is my ballfield. Play by my rules, or be benched.
And Aye, will you please stop feeding the pigeons on my thread. LOL
Some idiot calls Hawk out on improper use of “lemmings” since Disney made it up in
3….
2….
1…..
“And Aye, will you please stop feeding the pigeons on my thread. LOL”
I’ll take those lumps as well, as I, too, am guilty. 🙂
LOL… yes, but Aye threw out the peanuts to begin with. He does so love doing that. Problem is the pigeon crap is now getting knee deep.
“Surely you get that and will scream foul like a good little liberal.” -Hawk
No, he uses a lot of “LOLs” and “ROTFLOLs” and “HA HA HA!s” to mask his spittle-flecked rage.
Rbob bleeted “On conservatives opposing the Civil Rights movement . . . you are joking, right?”
And what about the dems that did the same if not worse?
How about former KKK member Robert Byrd?
How about David Duke who was Democrat until until 1988.
Are you sure that is a path you want to go down? You do realize how closely the democratic party and the KKK were intertwined, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Anti-kkk-cartoon.jpg
“A political cartoon depicting the KKK and the Democratic Party as continuations of the Confederacy”
George Wallace (Democratic) – notice what they said about how the nation viewed him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er3qzcsm60A
http://photos.upi.com/slideshow/lbox/1d0c457a3614756c87ad07ed3aea2144/George-Wallace-blocks-black-students.jpg
“Alabama Governor, George Wallace, is seen here in June of 1963, when he blocked two black students from enrolling in the all-white University of Alabama. Wallace, whose political career was marked by resistance to racial integration, died September 13, 1998, at a Montgomery Hospital in Alabama.”
@BRob:
The witness is evading the question Your Honor:
You continue to evade the question that I posted along with the pictures as well.
You said that those opposed to the things going on in Congress with HCR should:
So, again, I’ll ask you: Is that the advice that you would have given to the people in those photographs?
Probably not. Which demonstrates the ridiculousness of your entire argument about the rights of the minority to have a voice.
@MataHarley:
Yes ma’am, though I will say that it was more than a tad bit amusing to see Mr. ParaLegal2 pull “thinkprogress.org” as a credible source on the civil rights topic.
That’s like 4.18 pegs below Wiki.
I love the way BRob spins everything. People like him would have you believe that the democrats of today are completely different than the democrats of yesteryear. They want to mislabel the present parties to identify with all that is good and proper in their minds, and absolutely will not stand for anyone to cause disorder in their house of cards, lest it all come crashing down around them. One name, BRob: Senator Robert Byrd. Just how do you reconcile the fact that one of the senior KKK members is NOW a senior member of your little party of progressives, and still rail against conservatives and tie them to segregation?
Hint: You can’t, because that isn’t the only name that can be thrown out there.
There are sundry reasons that people oppose this plan, billy bob. And just like many on your side simply want what they believe to be free, unlimited extensive healthcare, many on my side look at the fiscal results of nations with health care and vast government social welfare nets. I have linked in many threads the 20 most indebted nations in ratio to GDP. The US, at 95%, is #20. 18 out of the 20 have either single payer, or combo single payer, two tier, mandate systems.
Isn’t helping their debt, is it? It’s a ponzi scheme social experiment that has failed multiple times in history. And this is projected to fail as well, even by CBO’s projections that they are comfortable making that far in advance.
I don’t give a crap about Obama’s personal legacy. If the man put forth a piecemeal bill that first addressed reducing costs of providing medical services to the consumer, you’d find I’d write a glowing piece praising that effort. But just like when a car isn’t running, you don’t replace the engine. You start with the logical culprits first, replacing repairing pieces one by one, to see the results after those repairs. It is obvious you and your POTUS never troubleshoot anything mechanical or electrical in your lives.
Oh fer heavens sake. THis POTUS has done more damage to both debt and deficit in a single year, than his predecessor did in an entire term. And you think putting together a bunch of union self-admitted socialists to talk about deficit reduction is doing anything?
Obama throws a lot of parties, summits and commissions. They do a lot of talking, and what the intent of the original soiree is for, becomes further removed with his actions. The man is a fiscal nightmare. But then he told us this up front. The America that elected him wasn’t good enough… he felt it needed “remaking”. O’healthcare is that foundation, as it represents a significant portion of the US economy.
Many of us prefer our nation as founded, and don’t covet being “australia”, or anywhere else. And as long as we live, we will wage battle with you, the American disgruntled.
Right now, I’m sitting back and waiting to see just how this little political game turns out. You’re on record with your predictions, billy bob. I’m on with mine here. Your’s are short sighted and fanciful… seeing only a glorious success with a complex and tainted process. Mine are long term, and banking on Obama’s ability to clearly see he’s lost this round in the fight…. so he’s readying for round two, but making sure he keeps control of the ring.
We shall see who’s right.
johngalt —
You are trying to change the subject. A valiant but futile effort. Conservatives opposed the civil rights acts and sided with the Bull Connors of the world. Liberals and moderates, luckily, won. I said nothing about any party; I said “conservatives.”
Bob Byrd . . . whatever . . . he was one of Obama’s mentors in the Senate, so he can only be so racist. Besides, unless and until you GOPers figure out how to reign in your own racebaiting nutbags . . .
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2010/02/the-gop-pitch-for-black-votes/36764/
. . . you might not want to go pointing out the supposed flaws of the dominant party . . . you know, the one to which upwards of 80% of America’s minorities are alligned and which just elected a Black president. G’day, mate!
@Aye Chihuahua: Now Aye…. I ask you to stop feeding the pigeons, and you agree… but only after you empty the remaining peanuts in the bag on the sidewalk!
I shall be here to check you both if this gets to smother the original topic at hand…. I can be as stern as Mike’s A, ya know. :0)
Taqi,Hawk,Disenchanted.A.C. This guy BRob has kicked your collective asses all over this blog.You should be embarrassed.Cons and Repubs got blasted in 2006 and 2008.Step back,take a deep breath,show some class and work for a win in 2010 and 2012.The U.S.A. is a Democracy that many here have fought for.
BRob
There is no change of subject. You can’t wrap your head around the fact that racists are present in every group of people you can conceive of. To go off on conservatives in general because of what you read and understand is the same as the GOP writing off all liberals as being anti-military because of what some liberals have done in protest. Now, do you have an intelligent point in mind about the original work posted, or is your answer going to be the same every time? IOW, “We won, we are going to do whatever we feel like!”
Damn….
Was it that obvious?
My job on that topic is done anyway. Mr. ParaLegal Man was trying to say that those in the minority should just keep quiet and “remember their place” or “find someplace to move”.
The parallels of BRob’s arguments with the struggles of those seeking racial equality were so obvious that they demanded an answer.
As of now, he’s been unable to answer the question directly, only producing fluff, bluster, and faux indignation at the fact that he was caught up in the logical fallacies of his own argument.
BRob: “Bob Byrd . . . whatever . . . he was one of Obama’s mentors in the Senate, so he can only be so racist. Besides, unless and until you GOPers figure out how to reign in your own racebaiting nutbags . . .”
Typical liberal move there. YOU were the ones talking about conservatives opposing the Civil Rights movement (past event) and now you say Reign in the CURRENT GOPers.
NICE TRY but no cigar. You do understand that we are not capable of time travel and time marches forever onward. So for you to try and twist the PAST with the PRESENT is trying to dodge the bullet. Unfortunately, your dodge FAILED.
So he claims he isn’t a racist NOW. He WAS during the Civil Rights movement.
You do understand that right? I mean I want to be sure you understand the concept of time lines and the concept of PAST and PRESENT and even FUTURE. I am not so sure your grasp on those are solid since you seem to confuse them.
So, I present examples where the dems are tied to the KKK and tied to those during the Civil Rights movement and suddenly you want to change from talking about the PAST and now want to talk about the PRESENT.
No, I wish to continue to talk about those who opposed the Civil Rights movement.
I know it makes you squeamish and may even threaten to shatter “your reality” which I am sure could potentially push you over the edge.
You have to face the demons of the party you follow. Your party – the democrats – have a very solid base in racism.
BUT since you want to look at present things TOO:
================================
House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., refuses to deny that she slurred African-Americans during a conversation about abortion with former Congressman Robert Dornan, according to a published report Tuesday.
“What would you do if one of your daughters was raped by a black man?” the California Democrat replied, according to Dornan, when he raised the question of her Catholicism and her own five children during an encounter in the 1990s.
================================
Now, rape is rape no matter the color of the rapist’s skin. I am sure you agree there unless you be labeled a racist yourself. BUT your hero Nancy is showing her racism here. WHY DOES IT MATTER ANY MORE IF THE RAPIST IS BLACK?
Jesse Jackson referred to Jews as “Hymies” and to New York City as “Hymietown”
But he is black, he can’t be racist right rbob??? Only whites can be racist. Right?
Sharpton never apologized for any allegations made towards whites who SUPPOSEDLY did something to a black victim and has been caught numerous times in racist remarks.
But again, black man can’t be a racist. Right? I want you to answer that … I want to see if you are a racist.
Whats up with Biden?
“You cannot go to a 7-11 or Dunkin Donuts unless you have a slight Indian Accent.”
I am so sure that was meant as a compliment.
Reid: “light skinned” and possessing no “Negro dialect”.
Had some GOP person said what Reid said – rbob would have an aneurysm from screaming RACIST!!!!
Shall I continue rbob?? QUID PRO QUO my friend.
@rich wheeler:
Wong again rich.
We are a representative republic, NOT a democracy.
The Founders specifically avoided a democracy.
Basic US history. Basic civics.
Aye Chihuahua – “As of now, he’s been unable to answer the question directly…”
Even if he is ABLE to answer, I think he CHOOSES not to answer. WHY? Because he would be pinned. Typical liberal move and he is by his own admissions – LIBERAL.
What do you have when you have twelve lawyers at the bottom of the ocean? A good start!
I seriously doubt he will answer my questions on racism where it concerns the democratic party.
I just don’t think he has it in him.
Right about now, he is rocking back and forth in his chair chanting “Make the mean man go away. Make the mean man go away.” because he refuses to ACKNOWLEDGE the racism of his own political party and those he idolizes (Like Aunt Nancy and Uncle Harry).
That’s it, group. My cyber foot goes down. Any comments after this INRE once again fighting the civil rights wars will be removed. Period. This is not this thread’s subject, and I will not tolerate it being hijacked from something bearing no resemblence to the post at hand.
My suggestion is you all take it over to the Weekly Open Thread if you want to continue that discussion. Other wise you will simply be deleted.
Mean Moderator Mata
Bumping up the weekly open thread to help ya out Mata
Thanks, Curt.
Comment moved to Weekly Open Thread by Mata
NOOOO Mata! I technically started writing before you said the cyber foot thing. I thought I had a really good response that was steeped in sarcasm and historical facts..
The biggest point to be made in regards to the original topic is that Obama claims to have republican ideas included in a bill that reps will sign and then will be reconciled. Interesting, as there were no GOP ideas in either the original house or senate bills that passed their particular chambers, and reconciliation must have the house pass the bill that the senate passed, in entirety, with no changes.
As Mata stated, “Show me the bill!”
This seems like a classic bait and switch scheme to get the preferred senate bill passed and into law, regardless of consequences and regardless of public opinion. After all, they know what is best for us, as they have stated numerous times, although maybe not in those exact words.
@Liam: I note the timing, Liam. I’ve done the courtesy of reposting your comment at the Weekly Open Thread, linked above. There you all can refight the Civil War if you like.
Me? Bigger fish to fry in 2010.
As I’ve added in Update #2 in the post, Former DNC chair Howard Dean is now on record recognizing passage of any of these bills as fool’s folly.
Again, if Obama comes to the same conclusions, this whole “put it to a vote” tadoooo is clean up on political aisle #1.
And yup, JohnGalt, this is pretty much lip service as it relates to the legislation that exists.
@MataHarley: well if they can’t get that history correct, why would there be any chance for today? Those that fail to remember/learn from the past are well… doomed to repeat it? Slavery has many faces.
As always Mata, I appreciate the insight and ideas you presented. In my opinion, no matter what, Obama wants to put it to a vote before the people put it to death. Its only a matter of time before this characterizes his presidency (if not already). If he doesn’t get on the job issue soon, it will guarantee a new party majority this coming election.
On a different note, but the same vein: In my opinion, I think Bush charged this country, I predict Obama will be the one that polarizes it. The next president seems like he/she might very well be the one to ignite it.
a.c. Tte USA formed as a Republic is also a reresentative democracy in which elected leaders act in the interest of their constituents This democracy has evolved and strengthened with passage of the 13th,14th, 17th and 24th amendments as well as Civil Rights Acts.
HI LIAM you said the next president could be the one to ignite it WHERE you thinking OF SARAH PALIN? you would be right on but she would on the right side bye