The latest shooting “crisis” has put Stand Your Ground Laws under attack after the Sanford, Florida incident. Anti gun groups claim that the law needs to be eliminated or changed. Nothing could be further from the truth. Whether Mr. Zimmerman acted correctly is a matter of speculation, and it will be until it is resolved by the County’s Grand Jury.
Stand Your Ground laws have saved more lives than have been taken by its misuse. Vocal opponents of the law are not aware that Florida’s Stand Your Ground “Castle” Law only creates a rebuttable legal presumption in the law that the person who acted in “self defense” had a right to do so. Al Sharpton doesn’t know what that means, or even care. The law gives no absolute right to use deadly force. Generally, when a person uses deadly force to defend himself or another, there has to be an honest and reasonable belief that the person using that force has a fear of immediate death or serious bodily injury from the person he has used that force against.
Here’s where the rebuttable presumption in Florida comes into play. If the Prosecutor believes and has evidence that the killing or injury inflicted was done with malice, or that immediate fear of injury or death was not present, then the Prosecutor is free to charge the person with any applicable crime up to murder. The Prosecutor must also prove that the person charged is guilty of violating that law beyond a reasonable doubt.
However, in some states there is also the same type of rebuttable presumption that when a stranger is in your home and has no right to be there, that he is there to do you bodily harm. That is also rebuttable by the Prosecutor.
In both instances, it is the Prosecutor’s burden of proof to rebut the presumption that the person defending himself acted illegally. The defendant does not have to prove anything. If Stand Your Ground Castle laws are repealed we will be like England, where the joke is that homeowners’ televisions are actually stolen while they are being watched.
Here are actual examples of self defense that won’t be allowed if anti gun rights organizations are successful in repealing Castle Laws, and what has already actually happened on New Hampshire when there’s no Castle Law.
K.S No shit the violence is bad in Chicago. I got a Marine buddy Chicago P.D, and as Mata suggests they don’t look the other way like Sanford P.D, This Zimmerman looks like a fat wannabee tough guy who went vigilante on this kid.
@Richard Wheeler: That’s your opinion but has little value or meaning. Let the investigation and those who are professionals and aware of the situation do their job. As far as Chicago, you have no clue what is happening in each situation and maybe none of them. Once again just an opinion. As with Florida, we pay people to manage our security and it’s easy to judge when it doesn’t go the way you want.
@Keyser Söze: Amazing isn’t it. Poor Richard’s needles stuck on stupid and no matter how much logic you use it will never make sense to him. Like pushing a rope. He is entitled to his ignorant and biased opinion but to try to reason with the guy, no chance.
Rich, and that is worse than shooting people without justification? That is what makes this one case so special, a man had a permit and killed someone, it would have been much better if he just killed randomly. I am not defending Zimmerman, I am not sure he needs to be defended, but what about the six year old in Chicago and the others who were killed, none of those get the blood pumping. There is a real disconnect here played to the max by the race pimps like Jackson and Sharpton, and they will stir the pot until there is blood flowing in the street. Blood for blood without knowing the truth or the facts, that is how the race pimps make a living.
I feel sorry for the little six year old girl, she never had a chance to do anything wrong, what about her?
I work with a number of African Americans who are convinced he won’t be charged. I’ve explained how the law works to them and explained it doesn’t protect an aggressor. From initial reports, it sounds like Zimmerman was the aggressor.
His father says he never confronted the kid. Really? Then how did he wind up outside the car?
Mata, I wouldn’t be so sure they dropped the ball. From what I’ve seen when they have a situation like this, they take their time in investigating. I also explained to my co-workers that it isn’t like the show CSI. It takes time and if his story doesn’t match the forensics, they will act. In the show CSI, they have results in hours or a day. In truth it can take weeks. When I was a juror on a kidnap, assault, and sexual assault trial, they asked if anyone watched CSI. Then they asked if anyone believed it. Those that did were dismissed.
Unfortunately, in the meantime the left will continue to to try and use this to further their “religion”.
From the get go I have seen rabid leftists claiming this is a result of the Castle Law and saying, “we told you so.” Forget that cases like this are in the extreme minority. Amusingly, one article complained that “justified homicides” doubled or tripled over the past few years. Yay!! The fact is, the left instantly jumped on this politically and the vast majority of those politicizing this are leftists.
BTW Mata, I know you probably know what I posted about the CSI stuff, but I figured it would be good for those that didn’t.
HR, the Sanford police had concluded their (apparently brief, considering the timing of the shooting and now) investigation and decided not to press charges, citing the Stand Your Ground law. It’s not like it’s in progress. Hence the uproar. The State’s AG office stepped in, as well they should if one of the law enforcement agencies are not doing their job.
The Sanford city council had a 3-2 vote of no confidence in the chief’s handling of the defunct investigation, and he has taken a temporary leave of absence. City residents have already started a recall petition for the two council members who voted to support the chief.
I would agree that something like this should indeed take time. Certainly not a matter of a few weeks. Especially starting from the premise that it was Zimmerman who was in pursuit. BTW, reading some Florida forums, it seems that Zimmerman’s car was over a block away from the shooting site. And the only way to the shooting site was walking trails thru the neighborhood, where the car wouldn’t go. So what was that about Martin, attacking Zimmerman at his car… which was a block away from where he died?
Smells… bad. And worthy of an investigation far more thorough than this PD evidently did.
Clearly protections for Zimmerman’s actions is not the intent or letter of the law. I understand that everyone wants to say all this is speculation, but what isn’t speculation is what we know from Zimmerman’s original 911 call.
He said the kid was only walking in the street…
The kid was running away, not toward Zimmerman – ergo he was not in imminent danger
He was told not to pursue
Yet he says that he defended himself when Martin attacked him when he got out of his car…. a block away from where the kid died?
To put the site of the death, the car’s location, and the altercation together with any coherency, we’ve have to assume that Martin stopped running away from Zimmerman, ran back to Zimmerman’s car where he attacked him, that Zimmerman then ran away from Martin to the site a block away and only then shot him.
How is it Hillary says? Willing suspension of disbelief.
As far as I’m concerned, none of this has anything to do with the law. It has to do with a civilian assuming police responsibilities… i.e. a neighborhood vigilante… and a PD who ignored Zimmerman’s aggression when investigating the case.
@MataHarley:
Really? So it’s your contention that Zimmerman treated all non-local residents the same? Chinese man, Black teen, old while lady, they’re all registered as suspicious? Interesting hypotheses. I think it’s fair to say there’s ample reason to at least consider my possibility, no? I mean, some people, the ones who sometimes get shot, they might well wonder.
Edit: I love your confidence in your opinion of why Zimmerman targeted this kid. After all, you spent half of today reading on the internet about it.
Skook, I don’t think anyone has a cavalier attitude towards the young girl, shot on her porch while with her mom in drive by shootings. All the senseless violence that leads to the deaths of the young is tragic. But I think you still miss the reason for this particular attention.
While the death of the little girl will be investigated and, if they can ID them, prosecuted, the Martin death has been dismissed questionably early, without charges. The investigation looks extremely shoddy on the surface.
It’s not that Martin’s death is more important. It’s whether law enforcement is actually doing their part for justice, or looking the other way. In other words, the lament is not about the life lost as much as it is about justice lost.
Unlike you, Tom, I’m not pontificating on some harbored racism of Zimmerman without any evidence of such. I’ve already read of neighbors’ accounts of him. And yes, that includes his black neighbor who used to advise him of when she was leaving town so that he could watch the house in her absence.
The same AP story was posted at Politico.
You know, you say you don’t want to hear all the racist overtones and false accusations, yet here you are… adding layers of racism when you really don’t know squat. A little more reading and a little less pompous projection, if you please.
You know, just because I don’t write a post about it, or comment on stories when they pop up, doesn’t mean I haven’t been reading about it for quite some time prior, Tom. And the reason I formed that opinion is because I read the AP story linked above a couple of days ago. Also read that Martin was in the neighborhood visiting his father’s girlfriend as well.
But I assure you… I have work I do in between, and I don’t often have the luxury of “reading on the internet about it” half of a day. I catch up on news in bits and pieces, archive those I want to finish, and put them all together.
My only sideline interest in this story is the legal aspect and the politicizing of the law itself. All the background noise, such as you tossing out the racist charges, whether candidates or the POTUS comments on it? I tune it out.
@MataHarley:
I think only a fool or a shut in could think it’s not reasonable to wonder if race played a part in this. This isn’t to say Zimmerman is a raging racist. He might be anything but the sort. Not everyone understands his own motivations. That’s precisely my point. We have to ask why. Because there’s a reason he followed this kid so zealously. You say it’s someone he didn’t know, someone not from the neighborhood. Fine, I accept that. but I doubt he killed everyone he ever encountered not from the neighborhood. So I think it’s fair question. But maybe you think it’s more important not to offend white people with the notion that racism still exists in America. It would be better for the riot police if we just take the path of least resistance. There is no racism, from this side at least. He was just a kid in the wrong neighborhood.
Then why are you suggesting he is a “raging racist”, Tom? From the accounts of the neighborhood watch, his high volume of calls to 911 about neighbhorhood activities, and the increased crime, it’s obvious that he took it upon himself to be a one man police force in opposition. I don’t agree with that, but considering the neighborhood is mixed, it’s quite logical to assume there are other minority teens wandering around, and that he’s likely to know most of the neighborhood because of his “captain” position of the neighborhood watch.
I’ll leave the racist motivations aside, and first go with the logical motivation of crime fighter… even ill thought. And until I see something different, I see no value in hyping up racist charges that have no foundation. You should consider doing the same, or you are no better than Sharpton or Jackson, fanning the flames of race discontent for political reasons.
In fact, I’d probably guess that Zimmerman never set out to kill Martin. It was an event that likely spiraled out of his control.
@MataHarley:
I would say they had decided not to press charges…at that time. It doesn’t mean additional info couldn’t come in that would cause them to act. From what I have seen, PDs tend to move slowly in high profile cases because of the potential for backlash or other consequences. So I’m not certain they had simply blown the case off.
We had a case here in AZ where a scumbag and accomplices massacred an entire family to keep them from testifying against the main guy. He was not arrested right away. In fact, it was about two weeks before they did so. This is in spite of major evidence pointing to him.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2031633/Arrogant-mass-murderer-William-Craig-Miller-guilty-killing-family-shooting.html
I’ll be blunt and say I have not heard that the PD involved in FL had closed the case. If it is in fact the case, they blew it and good on those those refused to let it go. There is no excuse for laziness. The truth is, forensics takes time and that is regardless of how important the case is. Look at Whitney Houston. She died how long ago and and we have the results now? That is an example of what I mean.
I won’t pretend that LE doesn’t screw up from time to time, but I’m not positive they made a mistake here. That doesn’t mean I can’t be convinced otherwise and that I am not leaning in the cluster fark direction.
Fair enough, HR. We’ll have to see what the state AG office investigation comes up with. But I can’t imagine them getting involved in the investigation were the investigation by the Sanford PD still underway.
@MataHarley:
Oh, the turtle has retracted her head. And just before you seemed so expansive, Mata. Your explanation to caveman logic as to why this case merited special attention was downright soulful. But how quickly you scurry back to a detached clinical view as you surmised race baiting is afoot. Wrong talking points, you realized. People question whether race played a part in this kid’s death, and you call foul. It’s not like the answer to that question is pertinent at all to the parents of other black teenagers who live in that zipcode.
Is there a time limitation between once a person is charged with a criminal offense until a case must be made against him or the charges dropped?
Seems there is.
If this is the case it makes perfect sense the Zimmerman has not been charged with anything…..yet.
Police can’t hold him indefinitely without cause.
So, they’d want to GET CAUSE before they charged him.
Seems to me an eventual charge of one of the two manslaughter crimes might apply to Zimmerman, IF things some witnesses are saying prove to be verifiable.
Then it will be up to a jury.
Good luck getting one that hasn’t been tainted now that all this has happened.
Anyway, early days yet.
@MataHarley:
This is my entire point, Mata: I agree with you. but you refuse to understand why people might legitimately ask why Zimmerman so quickly sized him up as a troublemaker. You keep harping on Zimmerman didn’t know Trayvon. Fine, so what drove his thinking that night after he’d processed, “I don’t know this kid”?
Skooks OFCOURSE i feel sorry for the 6 yr old girl and I hope P.D. get her killer.
From what you know can you defend Zimmerman. He called police and was told to back off. He advances, Why? Playing macho hero? Arrest him for pure stupidity and let it play out.
How can K.S. and Common Sense argue otherwise. Let Zimmerman get a much needed lawyer
You carry a gun to use in self defense or prevent a crime.
@Keyser Söze: You took this story right out of my mouth – thank you! This hatecrime was not reported, nor did sharpton, jackson, obama, or farrakhan have said a word about this hate.
The flashmobs throughout late 2011 and, still ongoing, mostly black youth involved – and no peep from any of these race hustlers.
(by the way, I inteniolly type lower case letters when it comes to names for race hustlers because, I have no respect for these people)
@Mata: I think you may be confused as to what constitutes a fact. You say it is a fact that the Spanish man chased the black man down and confronted him. Unless there’s published information of which I am unaware (quite possible), then you are basing this *presumption* on his recorded 911 call where the operator asked him if he was following and then told him they didn’t need him to do that. It may well have occurred (after the phone call) but you certainly cannot proclaim it fact unless you know things the rest of the general populace does not. Quoting a ‘Florida forum’ for facts on the case (related to the location of the shooting versus the location of the shooter’s car)? Come on!
The bottom line is that the vast majority of people – including Mata – have no more than a slight inkling of what occurred that day, yet proclaim to *know* things they could not possibly know – just like all the ersatz, armchair pundits on the tv machine, the standard controversy whores like Jackson & Sharpton, and all the other ‘keeping up with the kardashian’ fans. Until we have actual facts, the reasonable person can be satisfied knowing that he does not know what occurred. Let the investigation run its course, and when broadcasting opinion – try to not pepper the word fact in front of it.
@Richard Wheeler:
They seem to be looking the other way in the 2007 killing of Donald Young. “Oh Well…just another dead gay guy who was the choir director at Trinity church and was possibly having intimate relations with Barack Obama…nothing to see here folks, move along”.
Perhaps your CPD buddy-pal can covertly dig into the case and gather some facts. You two would be the story of the millennium, bringing down a sitting president and all. Here is your opportunity to get justice for an innocent unarmed Black man.
“Has There Been An Arrest In The Donald Young Murder?” Chicago Police Refuse To Answer
http://www.lsnewsgroup.com/2011/01/18/has-there-been-an-arrest-in-the-donald-young-murder-chicago-police-refuse-to-answer/
http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/members_of_obama_s_church_kill.html
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=5854125
All 3 Homosexual Members Of Obama’s Trinity Church Murdered Within 6 Weeks.
In late May, Wash. DC-based investigative journalist Wayne Madsen had a bombshell revelation about Obama’s membership in a Chicago gay club, Man’s Country. Madsen also reported on Obama’s sexual relationships with other men, including named D.C. politicians and Donald Young, the openly-gay choir-director of the church in Chicago of which Obama was a member for some 20 years — Jeremy Wright’s Trinity United Church of Christ black liberation theology.
http://patdollard.com/2011/11/report-mother-of-obama%E2%80%99s-murdered-gay-lover-speaks-up/
Wanted Dead or Alive Poster Issued for George Zimmerman by New Black Panther Party
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/11778354-wanted-dead-or-alive-poster-issued-for-george-zimmerman-by-new-black-panther-party
Tell us how you really feel King Samir Shabazz.
@cali:
Yes Cali…the flash mobs of last summer, like roving packs of feral dogs. Now we get to deal with the NATO summit and more hot days of summer…Oh Joy.
A witness will testify at the Grand Jury hearing.
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012
Actually, Gator, I’m envisioning the events based on Zimmerman’s statements as “facts” alone vis a vis police report, statements to police, and on the 911 call.
If you look at a map of the complex one can see why there’s a lot more questions than answers for Zimmerman’s “self defense” claim. I have a map, but experiencing FA server photo upload snafus at the moment. So if you’re curious, here’s the three sites that are pertinent.
1950 Retreat View Circle – Zimmerman’s home. He gave the house situs address, but not the street. However there are only three roads in the complex, and only Retreat View Circle has that situs number.
1111 Retreat View Circle – the clubhouse address which Zimmerman gave to the 911 dispatcher. For Zimmerman to have a view of the clubhouse, he’d have to go due north from his house and around the east bend for that view. The entry gate Zimmerman mentions is beyond the clubhouse and to the north.
1231 Twin Trees Lane and 2821 Retreat View Circle – the grassy area/pedestrian pathway between the houses where Martin’s body was found.
Added photo of sites in the complext
Here’s the “facts”, assuming Zimmerman is telling the truth.
1: He called, first noting that Martin was around the clubhouse area. Martin was on public grounds/roads, not on private property. Ergo no suspicious illegal activity or trespassing. While on the phone, he told the dispatcher he was following Martin. They told him not to, but he did not obey.
From the huffing/puffing sounds on the 911 call, he was likely on foot… which bears out with Zimmerman’s statements in #2 below.
There is NO “Stand your ground” self-defense here, and in fact this makes Zimmerman, thus far, the aggressor
2: His “stand your ground self-defense” hinges on him, “returning to his car” – presumably still parked where he could see the clubhouse – after “losing sight” of Martin’s whereabouts, and supposedly being attacked by Martin. Only if this is factual does it stand the test of “stand your ground”.
Now we have to accept that behavior patterns have changed. That Martin, who was running away, decided to turn around and confront Zimmerman instead. Let’s assume that to be true for debate purposes.
3: Now we go to where Martin’s body was found, in the grassy walk trails between 1231 Twin Trees Land and 2821 Retreat View Circle (police report), which is over a block away from the club house – the area from which Zimmerman first called. When you look at the map, you can see there is no way for a car to get there. The two had to have gotten there on foot… one chasing another.
For Zimmerman’s “self-defense” to stay valid, the altercation at his car would then have to result in Zimmerman, now scared and running away from Martin to the place where Martin died.
Let’s see… Martin’s behavior and situation to this point. Running away from Zimmerman, who pursued him on foot. Martin, armed only with iced tea and a bag of Skittles, 6’2″ and 140lb.
Zimmerman’s behavior to this point? Armed with a 9mm in his waistband, and already the aggressor by pursuing Martin. Weighs approx 250lb and 5’9″ tall.
Now, all of the sudden both flip their initial behavior… Martin attacks and Zimmerman runs away to the grassy area?
Nope… doesn’t add up. The witnesses say nothing about any attack at the car, only the scuffle in the grassy area between the homes. How did they get there and who chased whom?
Zimmerman’s injuries? If he pursued Martin to the grassy area and they fought, it’s quite easy to assume that he would have grass stains and some injuries in that battle. Martin’s body was found face down, his hands tucked underneath his body.
However how is it they got that far away from the car where supposedly Zimmerman says he was attacked… except for us to believe that now Zimmerman was running from Martin in fear of his life, when he’s got a gun tucked in his waistband. That his only “stand your ground” defense… that he tried to flee the car fight and Martin chased him.
If they did fight at the car, and Martin ran away to the grassy area, chased by Zimmerman, then Zimmerman’s Stand your Ground defense goes away via the parameters of the law.
Because of Zimmerman’s demonstrated aggression, plus the advantages of weight and being armed, it’s a real leap to assume that his attitude and behavior flipped 180 degrees… fearing for his life against the unarmed kid he was chasing, and running away to the grassy area.
BTW… the nearest convenience store from the complex is on Rinehart Rd, out of the complex to the north, east down Oregon Ave and South on Rinehart. Various reports had said Martin was there visiting his father’s girlfriend who lived in the complex. This would explain Martin’s presence in the gated neighborhood, since it’s not a “short cut” to any other neighborhood.
However, as I said above, even if Martin was a gang member, casing the complex for a robbery, he was not doing anything illegal when Zimmerman confronted him, as he says he did.
Sure thing, Matlock.
@Comm0n Sense:
Yes Common…the obvious always eludes them.
Gator and K.S. You dispute Mata’s analysis at risk of looking foolish. You too Bees.
Her analysis of what *might have happened*?
Mata:
1) how do you know where the spanish man was at when he made the call?
2) You say the spanish man did not obey the operator’s direction to not follow the black man. How do you know this?
3)Your assertion that the spanish man was the aggressor is based on the two assumptions above, the factuality of which you are unaware.
4) Though I’m sure you have some distant relation to Jung or Freud, your mandate that we accept that “behavior patterns have changed” is again based on the many assumptions you make, and for which you give the misnomer of fact. I seem to recall the 911 tape saying something about the black man coming towards the spanish man. Do we disregard that part, because it is less likely to be fact or what?
5) Again, you don’t know where the man was standing when he made the call – you are assuming you do. The address he gave was for the clubhouse. I believe he said “you can use XXX” which implies that he was not standing there (but unlike you, I am not ascribing that implication with the incorrect title of fact).
6) What’s the address of the black guy’s step mom? And where might you have read that report?
@Gator:
1: The 911 call answers your question #1. He was told not to pursue, and if you look at the map I added, he described where Martin was – the clubhouse area – and running away towards the gate. This means that Zimmerman had to be somewhere to the west of the clubhouse and gate area.
2: Because Zimmerman’s “defense” is that he said Martin attacked him when he was returning to his car. He also told the dispatcher he was following Martin, and did not stop nor acknowledge he would stop following Martin. Even Zimmerman admits to following Martin, fer heavens sake. That’s not even in question via facts.
3: The “factuality” is that Zimmerman had, by all accounts, been aggressively following Martin, who was running away.
4: No “mandate”… and thanks for the desperate hyperbole. This is not to establish Zimmerman’s innocence or guilt. Just to point out that there are enough plausible questions to the Zimmerman story that warranted more scrutiny in the investigation, and not a rapid shrug of the shoulders. As far as Martin coming towards Zimmerman, that was in the early part of the 911 call. Then he said that Martin was running away at the end. I provided the 911 call, unedited, above in comment #20.
5: Yes, we do know where he was standing just based on his descriptions. He had a visual of the clubhouse area. He said that Martin was running *away* towards the gate, which is further east of the clubhouse. Look at the map. Were Zimmerman on the east side of the gate entry road, Martin would have been running toward Zimmerman, and not away. The only “away” that works if the location near the bend on by the clubhouse, because of the complex layout. THe other option was that he was south of the clubhouse on Twin Trees Ln, and Martin was running away to the north. He said he was sitting in front of a house with a “cut thru”.
6: Don’t know of the address of the father’s fiance. NBC Miami reported that Martin – who’s from Miami – was in Sanford, visiting his father and his father’s fiancée at The Retreat at Twin Lakes in Sanford and walking home from a 7-Eleven. The nearest 7-11 is located where I described above.
What we know is that the location of where the body was found is no where near where you can drive a car. Therefore Zimmerman had to have left his car and pursued Martin. This aggressive pursuit, according to the FL legislator who penned the state’s Stand your Ground law, renders any self-defense under that law ineligible. Nor was Martin intruding on private property, nor doing anything wrong to warrant this scrutiny.
One of the most interesting things of life is deception. It begins from the time we were born. C3D2 is classic in intelligence. Now one must look carefully at the distribution of events. The news media flooded its viewers with anything but the truth. the new black panthers..oh jessie jackson can tell you all about them, he was one of the panthers in hyde park, chicago in the ’60. YES..jessie is a punk racist. Take a moment and think about deception and the way Barton Whaley, Donald Daniel, Katherine Herbig, Michael Handel,Scott Gerwehr, Russell Glenn, R.V. Jones,Haswell, Dewer and Latimer would have offer titillating analysis to the events of the day. Smile America…deception has nailed you again, and it will continue to affix you to the cross of stupidity.
@MataHarley:
We can agree that “more scrutiny” should be applied now (because every arm chair Nancy Drew in this world thinks they have this baby *NAILED*). Virtually everything else you state is conjecture. You have no idea the degree to which Zimmerman’s story was scrutinized. You have no idea the facts of the case other than the miniscule amount that are public. A good portion of those you even get wrong (he was running toward the back gate). You are on the lynch-mob-mentality band wagon. The same crew of people that on the one hand protest the “illegal killing” of a black man, while on the other demand the head of the (media-described ‘white man’) shooter on a silver platter, sans any evidence whatsoever.
Any number of things could have occurred between the end of Zimmerman’s call and the shooting. You can theorize all you like, but *just realize that is what you are doing*; do not proclaim it fact. The *fact* is that you have absolutely no idea what transpired between the end of the call and the shooting.
@MOS 8541: I was a sniper as well, sir. Semper Fi.
@Richard Wheeler:
Rich…It will be Mata who looks foolish when this witness testifies at the Grand Jury hearing and they vote “No Bill”. Then what…slash, burn, rape, and pillage?
I guess you missed this little news broadcast I posted above.
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012
Sorry, Keyser… that’s not a good smoking gun. As I’ve tried to point out over and over, the location of the fight and gunshot are no where near the car. This means that Zimmerman left his car. In pursuit? Or chased by Martin after Zimmerman, in his original 911 call, said that Martin was running away?
Why can we assume Martin was running “away”? Because had he been charging Zimmerman while on the phone with the dispatcher, he would have said so.
No one denies a fight. The question is, did Zimmerman pursue Martin for that fight? Or did Martin somehow reverse his behavior, and chase Zimmerman out of his car to that area?
If Zimmerman chased Martin for that fight, the Stand Your Ground defense is no longer a defense.
@MataHarley:
It will all be moot if the eyewitness testifies Martin was on top of Zimmerman, repeatedly beating him about the head and face. “No Bill”…done deal.
Then you do not understand the text and enforcement of the law, Keyser.
I cannot set out after you, provoke you into a fight (you, now defending yourself against me, the aggressor), kill you in self defense and claim Stand Your Ground.
@MataHarley:
Having served on the Cook County Grand Jury for an entire month back in the mid 80’s, I can tell you, you do not understand how the process works.
We handled 710 docket’s over 19 service days…indicted 546, let 12 go. The rest were subpoenas and information’s.
All of the participants of that evening will testify, from the police officers present, the neighbors, the special investigators and the Coroner. The members of the Grand Jury will ask all the questions they want without interruption. They will challenge the witness testimony if they feel it is out of sync with the facts being presented. After they are satisfied, the room will be cleared of all officials and the members will vote for a “True Bill” or a “No Bill”. If the Bill is True, Zimmerman goes to trial. If the Bill is No, Zimmerman goes home and I suppose the feral dogs will commence with their rioting.
This is how it will work from this day forward…all of your hypothesizing is, and will be for naught.
Grand Jury is nice, served for two-week in 1973 in the county of cook. Different world. There is no reality tv in a grand jury and events and information is trimmed-not like ” law and order”. Funny that Zimmerman was not arrested? If he is discharged-it will be an excuse to riot and loot as they have always done to get their high-end tv’s and furniture. Wonder how many of the rioters will be on welfare? You can bet that when the riots do start, jackson, sharpton, brown, pelosi, reid and father to “the son he never had” will be no where to be found. Smile America The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it away,
@MOS 8541:
Hey MOS…I was disappointed Mata never came back to respond…just ran away.
The ASA’s tried to hide facts from us in an effort to stick a feather in their hat…didn’t go over too well with our group…we dragged as much info out of the witnesses as we could.
I’m so sorry to disappoint you, Keyser… was there something there I was supposed to address?
Just because I don’t think that the Sanford PD was thorough in their investigation, or that the use of SYG as a reason not to continue the investigation or press charges was in error, doesn’t mean I sanction all this racial hot point crap raised by the scumbags like Jackson and Sharpton – desperate to stay relevant. Completely different issues.
Pity this wasn’t handled well to begin with, and then there would be no opening for the likes of the New Black Panthers and these race baiters to crawl thru.
As far as the Grand Jury, and their decision as to whether there is enough to prosecute, I’ll let that play out. No problems with that. Shoulda been considered from the get go because there are too many questions surrounding the event.
@MataHarley:
“Just because I don’t think that the Sanford PD was thorough in their investigation,”
From the letter dated March 23, 2012, the city answered why Zimmerman wasn’t arrested…”was supported by physical evidence and testimony”…not good enough for the pot stirrers. Sounds like the police did their homework that night, but the Left leaning ilk and race-baiters want their “Happy Place” as opposed to the evidence of that evening.
This was posted in…”It seems that Obama cares only about those who look like him”
“Why was George Zimmerman not arrested the night of the shooting?
When the Sanford Police Department arrived at the scene of the incident, Mr.
Zimmerman provided a statement claiming he acted in self defense which at the time
was supported by physical evidence and testimony. By Florida Statute, law
enforcement was PROHIBITED from making an arrest based on the facts and
circumstances they had at the time. Additionally, when any police officer makes an
arrest for any reason, the officer MUST swear and affirm that he/she is making the
arrest in good faith and with probable cause. If the arrest is done maliciously and in
bad faith, the officer and the City may be held liable.”
Norton N. Bonaparte, Jr., ICMA-CM
City Manager
March 23, 2012
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf
Yes, Keyser… I know the reasons the Sanford PD decided not to press charges. However the FL statute they used to apply was SYG, and were Zimmerman pursing Martin… as the 911 call indicates he was.. that renders that law not applicable to their reasoning. So it should have gone into the normal “self defense” arena of consideration. Under those legal circumstances, and unlike the SYG statute, the police would then have to consider whether the self defense was disproportionate to the threat.
Considering that event had only happened a couple of weeks prior to them wrapping up their investigation, it strikes me that it was a premature conclusion – an inordinately brief investigation period – for a police report that was labeled by the primary investigator on the scene as homicide-involuntary manslaughter-unnecessary killing in order to prevent unlawful act.
I’m not rooting for a conclusion. I am rooting for a process. If the increased and revisited scrutiny reveals Zimmerman’s story accurate and credible, so be it. I’ve got no problems with that. But I’m not as quick as others to assume his lack of culpability considering his documented actions. I know that were it my son who was killed, and there was evidence that Zimmerman had been stalking him – ergo it may have been my son who was actually acting in self-defense – I would want that explored far more thoroughly that what it appears to be.
@MataHarley:
“I am rooting for a process”
Then we will wait for the decision the process hands down and live with it.
Until then, kick back and relax…too much hyperbole will give you an ulcer.
LOL… well, Keyser, I’m not the one with the hyperbole. Just keep trying to point out that things aren’t as clear cut as everyone seems to think it is.
I’d say the largest amount of that is coming from those that want to make this a race issue… which is insane. But I won’t even deal with that mentality. This, especially as it relates to the legal issues and RKBA? Sure. But not even going to play games with the race baiting.
@MataHarley:
Well, glad to hear that…the final outcome will make for a good read.
@MataHarley: But I’m not as quick as others to assume his lack of culpability considering his documented actions.
But you are as quick as the others that immediately claim as fact that the shooter was the aggressor and that xyz statute does not apply.