Let’s look at the Martin/Zimmerman timeline.
First we have to audio clip that Mata provided for us.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9A-gp8mrdw[/youtube]
And the transcript is here
The official audio can be downloaded here.
To begin with, Zimmerman is in his vehicle (1) as he speaks with the dispatcher. At 0:56 of the clip
“That’s the clubhouse, do you know what the- he’s near the clubhouse right now?”
“Yeah, now he’s coming towards me.”
It does sound as though Martin (2) is walking in a direction away from the clubhouse, toward Zimmerman. Zimmerman says Martin is near the clubhouse, but Zimmerman does not say that he is near the clubhouse. The clubhouse is near the main entrance on Oregon St.
Zimmerman expressed concern that Martin might be carrying something as he approaches:
“He has his hands in his waistband. He is a black male. Something’s wrong with him. Yep. He’s coming to check me out. He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. Send officers over here.”
Zimmerman begins to give instructions as to his location when Martin begins to run and Zimmerman exclaims
“Shit, he’s running.”
At 2:10 of the audio recording, the vehicle door can be heard to open and at 2:14 it closes. By this time Martin has passed from near the clubhouse toward the area between the 13 and 28 buildings. Zimmerman begins to chase and you can hear the rustle of his clothing and his breathing at 2:19. The dispatcher ask if he is chasing Martin and Zimmerman acknowledges that he is. At 2:26 the dispatcher says:
“OK, we don’t need you to do that.”
Zimmerman says “OK” and the rustling ends at 2:42.
At 2:38 Zimmerman says “He ran” and apparently lost sight of Martin. Martin apparently escaped.
Zimmerman remains on the phone with the dispatcher until at least 4:12. During that time he describes his location and directs the dispatcher to the location of his parked car.
Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that’s my truck…[unintelligible]
Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?
Zimmerman: I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address.
That puts Zimmerman’s vehicle on Twin Trees Lane. According to one report, near the bend. Martin apparently fled in between the 28 and 12 buildings toward his father’s girlfriend’s place, located near the back entrance of Twin Lakes. It is the direction Zimmerman described.
Dispatcher: “He’s running? Which way is he running?”
Zimmerman: “Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.”
Zimmerman’s phone call was received at 7:11:12. At 2:42 on the audio, Zimmerman stopped running and lost sight of Martin. That puts it at 7:13:54 or so. Zimmerman continues to speak to the dispatcher until at least 4:12 of the audio, or 7:15:24. It’s reported that the phone call to Brandy Green ended at 7:16. The fight and shooting took place between then and when the police arrived at 7:17.
This is the point the gaps exist.
Zimmerman is reportedly parked on Twin Trees Lane. He says Martin is coming toward him, and then he says Martin runs. Zimmerman says that Martin runs “towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.”(3) That is SE of Zimmerman’s position and it is in the direction of the home of Martin’s girlfriend. (4) Zimmerman begins chase, but then stands down when it was requested he do so and he apparently loses sight of Martin. The question is, which way did Martin run? If he ran down Twin Trees avoiding Zimmerman (5), Zimmerman could keep him in sight for some time. That would put Martin some distance from where the altercation occurred- in between 1321 and 2821, as described in the police report. (6) Martin was initially placed near the clubhouse. If he reversed course, say to head up to Retreat Circle (7), then Zimmerman would not have described him running toward the back entrance on South Oregon. If Martin ran toward the area in between buildings 28 and 12 passing near Zimmerman’s car and then turning the corner, Zimmerman would lose sight of him quickly.
This is all of significance because there was less than a minute in between the time Zimmerman ended the call to the police and the beginning of the altercation as the phone call from Martin to Green is said to have ended at 7:16 and Zimmerman was speaking to the dispatcher until 7:15:24. That’s about 30 seconds for Martin and Zimmerman to come together.
Zimmerman had no idea to where Martin was headed. Zimmerman did not catch Martin while Zimmerman was on the phone and Martin had a head start even if he only “walked fast” he still could outpace Zimmerman. Yet somehow they could not have been farther apart than about 30 seconds closure.
Then we come to some other questions. If Zimmerman was “hunting down” Martin as some have opined, why did he not simply shoot Martin upon encountering him? Why would Zimmerman get so close to Martin that Martin could punch Zimmerman in the face and knock him down if his intention was to kill Martin? (BTW, ABC News has had an epiphany. It has decided that George Zimmerman had injuries after all) Would a person bent on murder allow himself to be assaulted and still expect that he could reach and fire his gun? If Zimmerman was brandishing a gun what could possess Martin to attack him? No reasonable person is going to charge someone aiming a gun at one. Zimmerman agreed to meet with the police as they arrived. Why would he agree to meet them and then chase after Martin to kill him? Why would someone bent on murder hold Martin at gunpoint while he screamed for 40 seconds? Because he wanted witnesses to the murder? Why didn’t Zimmerman run if murder was the goal?
None of this makes any sense.
Now let’s consider what probably happened. Back to the NY Times
Soon, callers to 911 were describing the presence of police officers, and the beams of flashlights gliding over a section of grass a few dozen yards from Trayvon’s destination, where a boy inside was waiting for Skittles.
A few dozen yards. A few is about 3. Three dozen yards. 36-40 yards. 120 feet. George Zimmerman loses sight of Trayvon Martin at 2:38 of the call, or about 7:13:50. Martin has until 7:16 to cover the “few dozen yards” to make it to the safety of Brandy Green’s residence. Zimmerman remains on the phone until 7:15:24. Martin’s girlfriend said the phone call went “dead” at 7:16, but Martin and Zimmerman were already exchanging words. According to Martin’s girlfriend, the conversation was initiated by Martin. The window between the end of Zimmerman’s call to the SPD and the meeting is brief. Really brief.
Martin had over two minutes to reach Green residence. Why didn’t he go there? This suggests strongly that Martin did not go to the Green residence, but instead hid somewhere, waiting for Zimmerman, and then confronted Zimmerman. Martin spoke first to Zimmerman, not the other way around. I think Martin approached Zimmerman’s car from the direction of the clubhouse, passed the car and then bolted. Martin then rounded the corner and hid. Zimmerman pursued until being asked to stop but lost Martin. As Zimmerman turned to head back to his car, Martin came out of hiding and confronted Zimmerman. The rest is history.
DrJohn has been a health care professional for more than 30 years. In addition to clinical practice he has done extensive research and has published widely with over 70 original articles and abstracts in the peer-reviewed literature. DrJohn is well known in his field and has lectured on every continent except for Antarctica. He has been married to the same wonderful lady for over 30 years and has three kids- two sons, both of whom are attorneys and one daughter on her way into the field of education.
DrJohn was brought up with the concept that one can do well if one is prepared to work hard but nothing in life is guaranteed.
Except for liberals being foolish.
@MataHarley:
It’s more complicated than that. Her husband is just a grunt lawyer in the civil part of the practice – he might not even litigate. A principal at the firm was being considered as Zimmerman’s lawyer, until he decided to be a commentator on the case. He recommended several lawyers to Zimmerman, who chose one of those as his lawyer.
Judge => Husband => Partner => Commentator-on-case
Judge => Husband => Partner => Recommended-Zimmermans-lawyer
What part about the Judge’s disclosure and offer to recuse herself last Friday are you missing, jimrtex? There is no attempt to hide this from either the prosecutor, or the defense attorney.
@MataHarley:
The judge can also decide whether self-defense applies before it goes to trial. Even if the judge decides that it doesn’t, it can be used as a defense before the jury.
Yes, I’ve already stated (on this and a couple of other threads) that the pretrial immunity hearing happens before a judge only (no jury). Also that the burden of proof that it was self defense lies on the defendant, and not the prosecution… as is the intent of the law.
I’ve also pointed out that I’ve read thru three FL criminal attorneys reviews of these immunity hearings. Only nine of them have been granted out of all that have been attempted (the law has been invoked 140 times since it’s 2005 enactment, tho we don’t know how those cases proceeded or came out as an overview). And many attorneys don’t want to go that route because they expose their defense strategy in a mini defense presentation right out of the gate.
Whether Zimmerman and O’Mara decide to go that route, we’ll all have to wait and see. Statistics aren’t in his favor, but no two crimes or trials are alike.
@MataHarley:
Is your team the Sonoma Snails? They are not major league.
I doubt when Martin played football he was an offensive tackle.
Obviously, jimrtex, physics ain’t your forte. You give sarcasm a good effort, but unfortunately you can’t get around your really stupid statements. But I did flip my times backwards… with the ball players doing 13 feet per second, and Martin supposedly doing a fast walk (gal pal says he refused to run) at 7 ft per second.. which is a couple feet more than a fitness power walkers average. Then, of course, since you know everything, you state… without any evidence of knowing where Martin was.. that he was a couple hundred feet away.
Need to borrow drj’s backhoe to move thru your BS.
MATA
THANK YOU FOR THE INFO, WEE’LL NEED YOU ON THE CASE, which I think will be long,
how about dragging it till after the election, I would feel better, to see a new PRESIDENT on top for this case to be resolve to see a free man get his life back, after so much a burden on him,
so much a stress on him, so much anxiety in his broken life, so much uncertainty for his future, which will never be what he was hoping for, he is so young at 28, still not even at the prime of his life, and he just wanted to help his community,
bye
@MataHarley:
2:58 Dispatcher: Alright where are you going to meet with him at.
Zimmerman: (attempts to explain to dispatcher)
3:48 Zimmerman: Could you have him call me and I’ll tell him where I am at.
Dispatcher: That is no problem.
The point is, Zimmerman wanted the police officer to come to the location where Martin had last been seen.
@MataHarley:
I think you’re confusing slugs and sluggers.
A major league baseball player can make it to first base in a little over 4 seconds.
90 feet (distance) / 4 second (time) = 22.5 feet/second (velocity) QED
You may know your Slugs, but you’re no Newton.
As I said, I reversed the numbers in my original comment. Mea culpa. I also miscalculated first base distance at 60′ instead of 90 (avg 4.5 sec). Another mea culpa. But the point remains, you have no idea where Martin was, at what speed he was traveling, nor how many feet he was away. That’s pure horse pucky from you. The only person who we know was moving for a x amount of time is Zimmerman. In 33 seconds, he could have made it back safely inside his car after hanging up. Had had two minutes to do that, and never did.
All the rest you make up? Pure fantasy to suit your whims. You don’t know jack. Period.
jimrtex says:622
@c. lindy:
“I said, ‘If it’s someone you don’t recognize, call us. We’ll figure it out. Observe from a safe location.’ There’s even a slide about NOT being vigilante police. I don’t know how many more times I can repeat it.”
Has anyone noticed the weird quoting style here.
[This is a statement given in answer to the Miami Herald by Wendy Dorival, Sanford Police Neighborhood Watch Organizer.] That statement was a direct quote from Dorival. If a direct quote is not to a journalist’s liking, the journalist cannot change it to his/her own wording, unless he/she makes it clear that it is not a direct quote. If a journalist changes one word in a direct quote… it fails to be a direct quote. A direct quote has to be verbatim… exact, as stated, whether you think the quoting style is wierd or not.]
———-
Wendy Dorival is the Crime Prevention Specialist for the Sanford Police Department. It is part of her job to help Neighborhood Watch groups become organized. She would have attended and help organize the meeting on Retreat View Circle – just as she would that any other area.
[No argument there. I don’t think there was any issue from me about that in my post.]
——–
She no doubt would give the same presentation to any such group, and said “If it’s someone you don’t recognize, call us. We’ll figure it out. Observe from a safe location.” If she had prepared slides, she’d show the same at every such meeting. But the impression is that this was a special presentation for wannabe cops and semi-hot-blooded white-latinos.
[You have gotten the wrong impression and it is totally irrelevant, regardless.]
———-
The “I don’t know how many more times I can repeat it,” is directed at whomever was questioning/badgering her. She was probably looking at her watch as she was trying to calculate how many more times before she could rush home to cook dinner, rather than send the children off to 7/11 for Skittles and Tea, and still make it to her presentation at a new group that night.
[Why would she be looking at her watch etc., while being interviewed by the Miami Herald?]
———–
BTW, the SPD website recommends having about 1 person per 8 to 10 household. For Retreat View, that would be somewhere around 20-30 persons. It is not clear what was meant by “few” who attended.
[I don’t have the exact head-count, but have read that the resident turn-out for the meeting was disappointing, considering the number of residents living in the condo community.]
Jimrex:
Previous C. Lindy post: Was Zimmerman setting the stage to claim Stand Your Ground to be used later? First, Z. said Martin was starring at him. Then he said Martin had his hand in his waistband and seconds later, he told the dispatcher that Martin was coming toward him with something in his hands. Was Z. creating a taped record for all intents and purposes that Martin was coming toward him carrying a gun in his hand? He also carefully adheres to the Neighborhood Watch suggestions for recognizing suspicious activity. If you put up the Neighborhood Watch suspicious person/people and play the 911 tape, it reads pretty much like a script. Its just a thought.
————————–
Jimrex says the above is BS.
Perhaps you didn’t read my closing sentence, “Its just a thought,” but you are entitled to your opinion.
Regardless, we may see something like this suggested in the Zimmerman trial, by the prosecution.
@c. lindy:
You’re missing the single quotes inside the double quote.
The part that I’ve bolded is what she would have told to the (new?) neighborhood watch group. It is probably a paraphrase of her standard presentation which she is recalling for the Miami Herald reporter.
She did not tell the new group there is “even a slide about it.” She is telling the reporter for the Miami Herald that there is a slide in her standard presentation. Dollars to donuts she shows the slides to every group as she talks.
She did not tell the new group “I don’t know how many more times I can repeat it.” she is indicating to the apparently dense Miami Herald reporter that she had given him/her an explanation, and she was tired of him trying to figure out if there was something special.
The Sanford Police Department recommends one attendee per 8 to 10 households. There are around 260 units in the neighborhood, with 40 reportedly unoccupied. So somewhere around 20 to 30 for an organizational meeting. Among the tasks are to create a call tree, and appoint block captains, who would be expected to greet new neighbors, etc.
I don’t know how many attended either. It could have been low, with about 1/2 the units converted to rentals. The subdivision was built right at the real estate crash which was particularly harsh in Florida. The first units sold for $250,000; the last units for $150,000; and the current assessed value is $75,000. Even if you can make the payments, you might decide it is not worth it. And if you are having depressed rents, you can’t be too picky with tenants.
But it could also have been lower than a media presumption that you would expect close to 100% attendance that you might have at a block party. Remember the media is promoting the meme of “self-appointed”
The Google street view image from April 2011 shows a Neighborhood Watch sign. Zimmerman apparently became neighborhood captain last September. He mentioned the meeting the next day when he reported an open garage door. I bet there is a slide for that too.
The Sanford Police website also mentioned the importance of keeping the Neighborhood Watch active, with the implication that many do fall apart. I doubt that the Retreat View group is too active now.
@c. lindy:
This is what you wrote, which I am characterizing as BS:
The affidavit of probable cause alleges that Zimmerman assumed Martin was a criminal.
It appears that you are assuming that Zimmerman was a criminal.
jimrtex
very well put, I maintain that ZIMMERMAN WAS TAKING HIS CAPTAIN JOB SERIOUSLY,
and he meant to make a difference in the previous break in,which offended him as he mentioned those break in to the dispatcher, he meant to say why he was there and watching the person of interest,
doing the same body movements as a burgler, that is also why he mentioned angry words about the the whole crime doers, not necessary at one but all who rob the community,
the words where interpreted wrongly by some who have taken the other side
@MataHarley:
Maybe Martin told his girlfriend.
Otherwise, we have Zimmerman’s statements to police which he voluntarily gave to police. We have a 911 recording reporting Zimmerman putting his arms up and telling the police he had shot Martin. We have the police officer reporting that Zimmerman said he shot Martin, that he said he was armed, and was willingly taken into custody.
If you are prosecuting Zimmerman, you’re not going to be able to tell the jury, “Maybe Zimmerman is lying, let your imagination run wild as you create an alternate reality.” You’re going to be able to put the detectives who were with him on the walk-through, explaining where various events were taking place. This was all videoed.
If a juror thinks, maybe he is telling the truth, that is a reasonable doubt. You may think that it is a juror who has a reasonable doubt about Zimmerman telling the truth.
Zimmerman had no reason to return to his truck. The dispatcher urgently requested that Zimmerman tell him which way Martin had run. It was not until Zimmerman had actually gotten out of his truck that he said, and was then questioned further. It was about 11 seconds before Zimmerman started following in the wake of Martin. After the dispatcher told him not to follow he slowed. So I would say his motion was from 2:18 to 2:40 (22 seconds). This could put him just coming into the top of the T, and he had lost sight of Martin. He could easily have been standing at the top of the T during the remainder of the call, and then walked to the east end of the sidewalk and back after he got off the phone.
You’re supposing that Martin’s girlfriend called just as he was standing around. And Martin told her about the creepy guy, and she told him to run, and he said he would “walk fast”. But this would mean that her phone call started before the billing time. It might have.
But let’s say that Martin was walking fast (6 feet/second = 15 minute mile), then he could have been home in 1-1/2 minutes. So will Martin’s girlfriend say that he told her that he thought he had lost the guy, and they resumed their long-distance courtship until the end. But this fits Zimmerman’s version as well.
Or will she say he was walking fast the whole time? In which case it is simply inexplicable that the confrontation occurred where it did.
Hey all. Never posted here, but was linked to this site for info on the case and think its fantastic! That said, just so you know, your time is incorrect for when the Zimmerman 9/11 call started. (and hopefully whoever monitors/reports things here might notice this post)
If you look at the “Event Report” you reference for Zimmermans call times, on the top of the page you will see
The 7:09:34 time is when the call started; the 7:11:12 time is when the request was officially entered/forwarded for the police to respond to it
This can be verified with the Zimmerman claim of “He’s running”/”He ran” at roughly the 2:10 mark in the actual conversation. This is on the report as “19:11:59 Subj now running” in the history section – a perfect match for call time + time to type it into the system quickly for the responding car
Similarly, the call ended at the 7:13:41 “compl now req Leo 1045 before 1056” entry
And when you update that error, you actually find approximately 2:20 between their respective calls ending, and about 5:20 or more for Martin to get home after seeing, mad-dogging and “running” before the confrontation takes place
You can also count about 6:30 after “he’s running” for Martin to get home, change clothes, put on popcorn, find the game on TV, roll a blunt and eat his Skittles, before the police even arrive on scene. That’s what should have taken place
What I think probably did take place is this:
Zimmerman chases briefly, maybe making it around the corner (6), but walks back to his car (1) after the dispatcher says he doesn’t need to follow Martin. Martin merely went around the first corner too, and talked to DeeDee while hiding somewhere along the path of houses (maybe he even went all the way home – he had time). After a few minutes talking, Martin likely walks back towards the corner to see if the Truck/Zimmerman is still there. Let’s say its about 7:15. Zimmerman, around the same time, after about 4 minutes waiting at the Truck, decides to walk (maybe after thinking he may have heard talking? Maybe Martin peaked around the corner?) to the walkway to look between the houses again (but probably staying in sight of his Truck/street, as best he can) Martin is right there still talking to DeeDee though. (both around 6) Zimmerman ends up right next to him by pure dumb luck really. Martin, startled or panicking, verbally confronts. Zimmerman asks what he is doing there, and Martin starts swinging. Call drops, and Zimmerman is tossed to the ground.
This fits everything we know, from both sides really. Both Zimmerman and DeeDee would be telling the truth, for the most part at least. And it makes perfect sense as to what we would expect normal people to do in situations. Zimmerman isn’t the villain following anyone really; he just investigated and turned the corner at the wrong time. Martin isn’t the villain either – just nosy; but overly defensive and/or aggressive when (mistakenly) “caught” by Zimmerman
BlahBlahBlah
hi,
you make sense with this new info
thank you.
Jimrex:
There is nothing strange about single quotation marks within double quotation marks, although they are not used frequently, but we do see them here and there.
When single quotation marks appear within double quotation marks, they are chosen by some writers for one of the following reasons:
— To mark a quote within a quote in a sentence/sentences
— To mark emphasis in a sentence/sentences
— To mark a headline in a sentence/sentences
I venture to say when Dorial was talking to the Miami Herald reporter, she was referring to how frustrating it was to describe the do’s and especially the don’ts to her Neighborhood Watch attendees. The writer and/or editors simply chose to break her past experiences away from the thrust of her real-time statement.
As a former Editor, I understand it, even though I seldom used single quotes within double quotes.
I also encouraged journalists to write to express, not to impress.
@BlahBlahBlah:
This had been noted earlier in the thread, and conversion of recording times to clock times has been using 7:09:34 as the start time. Most of the REM occur some seconds after the dispatcher would have received the information. The one exception is the meeting at the mailboxes – which suggests strongly it was the dispatcher suggesting this.
The dispatcher probably was typing during the first part of the call. When the call was officially entered was about the time Zimmerman said that Martin was checking him out, and to get an officer over there. This was not too long after Zimmerman had responded to the dispatcher’s question about the age (“late teens”) and soon after, the first officer is dispatched. It was not a 911 call, so the dispatcher would have some time to decide how to respond.
Zimmerman did a walk-through for the police the day after the shooting, which his father observed from “a distance”. This was also videotaped. His father reported that Zimmerman walked to the eastern end and then back, and that was when he encountered Martin. Probably from conversations with his son, he believed that he had gone to the eastern end to get his location or a street address.
We can work backwards from the 911 calls. One caller reported that they had seen the wrestling, had locked their patio door, and had run upstairs to call 911 when they heard the shot. At 1:04 into the call, they report flashlights. If the first officer arrived at 7:17:11 on the street, it might have taken him 30 seconds to get around the building, and be seen. Depending how soon after he heard the shot before he called 911 (he was already headed towards his phone) this would put the shot at about 7:16:30.
There is one 911 call with 45 seconds of yelling/screaming before the shot. They would have had to first decide to call 911. And there is another caller who said that they heard loud voices as if arguing first, and may have seen some wrestling. They hadn’t called until after the shooting, but as they were on the call, they saw Zimmerman being arrested (hands up) and saying that he had shot the other person.
So this puts the beginning of the altercation around 7:15:30 or so. So perhaps 1-1/2 or so after the end of Zimmerman’s call.
There are about 11 seconds after Zimmerman reports Martin running, until he starts moving. Martin could have easily been to the north-south sidewalk by then, or possibly even to the street. Zimmerman could have been coming up on the corner when the dispatcher said he didn’t need to follow Martin, and simply stopped there during the rest of the call. And then gone to the east end of the sidewalk when he was waiting for the police officer.
c. lindy:
All scripted including the being slugged in the face and then having his head bashed into the sidewalk?
How do people come up with these scenarios?
Eyewitnesses saw George Zimmerman on the bottom of the fight screaming for help BEFORE the gun was fired.
How on earth did he engineer this, I ask myself.
@c. lindy:
The Orlando Sentinel reported:
The Miami Herald reported:
It then included the controversial quote. The headline and byline of the Miami Herald are:
The Miami Herald article is trying to give the impression that her comments related to that particular meeting, or that she had to particularly repetitive with the thickheaded George Zimmerman who was focused on young, black males.
Well, Michelle Obama has added in her $.02 worth.
Now, you MUST first be reminded of her all race all the time thesis she used to get her BA in sociology at Princeton….see it in full here:
OK, with that in mind….
Here’s what she said:
So, to sum her thoughts up:
She feels for the parents.
We all should rally around their loss.
We should keep lines of communication open.
Sounds OK.
Where does the mad dogging fit in this picture?
Can she stop that?
What about the ebonics and other languages spoken in the USA?
Would a one official language help tremendously?
And lastly, the OTHER family has suffered, too.
Any compassion about them?
Any rallying around them?
Good work, I haven’t finished reading yet. But you should correct the exact call time. I used the data from his 911 phone call history here on page 46. (47 being related to the same incident) The top of the page shows the call is connected at: 19:09:34, the person taking the call is “snoffke”. The date you are using is the automatically recorded time at the point snoffke finishes the first line of data.
something else: “Brandy Green”, do we know the name of Trayvon’s girlfriend. It feels Brandy Green is the name of his father’s girlfriend, or the owner or inhabitant of the house were Trayvon and his father were guests.
@LeaNder:
The network’s are ascribing the name Dee Dee to Trayvon’s girlfriend. I don’t think her last name has been published.
jimrtex said: It then included the controversial quote… re: Miami Herald.
Controversial: That is your definition, not the Miami Herald. The quote is self explanatory to most. I’m sorry you cannot understand it.
Anything inside single OR double quote marks are statements Dorival made while talking to the Miami Herald about the Sanford Police Neighborhood Watch Program. She made statements to give insight to the program… what is and what it is not. She made reference to community watch meetings, slides, vigilanteism, etc. Makes no difference if the quotes around her statements are single or double, the words are attributed to Dorial.
It’s kind of like this: I’m interviewing you about the Ford Focus you just purchased. In answer to me asking you how you like it, you say, “It’s a nice car and it handles nicely. ‘Everyone is complaining about the high cost of gas, you know’ and the Focus also has an excellent turning radius for tight spots.” Every word in that sentence is attributed to a quote from you, word for word. (Everyone is complaining about the high cost of gas, you know) is not directly related to your review of the car’s performance.) The high cost of gas is an aside in your statement and is appropriately punctuated to indicate that. The same goes for the Dorival statements. There is no controversy whatsoever, unless you like to beleaguer obessive games of symantics.
Why the original judge stepped aside:
Judge Recksiedler’s husband worked with Orlando lawyer Mark NeJame, the Associated Press reported. NeJame was asked to represent George Zimmerman earlier on in the aftermath of the Feb. 26 shooting.
[Recksiedler recused herself to avoid Appearance of Conflict.]
——————————————-
Should Judge Lester also recuse himself?
Lester is married to Dorothy Sedgwick, a long-time homicide prosecutor at the State Attorney’s Office in Orange County., Fla.
[Can the fact that Lester’s wife is a prosecutor at the State Attorney’s Office, located in Orange County FL also be considered Appearance of Conflict?]
@c. lindy:
I think this was after Zimmerman was getting rid of his first lawyers. After NeJame decided he wanted to be a commentator on the case, he gave a list of some other lawyers to the Zimmerman’s, who chose Mara from that list.
@jimrtex:
Zimmerman contacted Mark NeJame’s office on March 13 to ask for representation. NeJame declined, saying a trial of this nature takes a lot out of a lawyer. NeJame also preferred to remain as a legal commentator on HLN.
@c. lindy:
I had misunderstood the timing. Presumably, NeJame agrees with this account that he had recommended Mara, or his firm wouldn’t have posted it their web site.
http://www.nejamelaw.com/mark-nejame-in-the-news/more-developments-in-the-george-zimmerman-case.html
I’m not sure how it matches with this one:
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-03/news/os-george-zimmerman-lawyer-sonner-20120403_1_defense-team-lawrence-o-donnell-wofl-channel
Did NeJame also recommend Sonner, who sounds like he was overmatched by the media machine, and later bring in Uhrig who had done commentary during the Casey Anthony case, or did the Zimmerman’s seek NeJame out when they realized it was getting out of control.
It really doesn’t matter, other than Zimmerman appears that he has got a better lawyer now.
@jimrtex:
O’Mara seems to be a worthy defense counsel and the Special Prosecutor’s office appear to be circling the Mike Nifong event horrizon en mass.
Mike O’Malley
hi,
yes, I like him too, he show his presence constantly,
bye
@jimrtex:
Despite the research, the question still remains:
Why did the first judge (Recksiedler) recuse herself, letting the court know her husband was a law partner of NeJame (who had been contacted by Zimmerman’s father?)
Then we find that she was replaced by Judge Kenneth Lester, husband of Dorothy Sedgwick, long time prosecutor at the State Attorney’s Office where Prosecutor Angela Corey swings a heavy bat. That sounds like another appearance of conflict to me. What happened to the essence of (avoiding impropriety) thing?
@c. lindy:
There are 20 elected State Attorneys in Florida, one for each of 20 circuits. Corey is from Jacksonville and was assigned to the case by the governor. There are 1900 assistant state attorneys (Sedgwick is one of them). She works in a different circuit (Orange and Osceola counties) than either Lester (Seminole and Brevard) or Corey (Duval, Nassau, Clay).
If there were a conflict because Sedgwick is a prosecutor and Lester is a judge, then there would be a conflict in every case.
BTW, there was another judge who was in line before Lester, John Galluzzo. But Galuzzo had previously practiced with Mara, and Mara is the godfather of one of Galluzzo’s children.
@ilovebeeswarzone: Everything is not about race. I think Zimmerman is innocent, but I also would love to see President Obama back into office!!!
@ilovebeeswarzone: Everything is not about race. I think Zimmerman is innocent, but I also would love to see President Obama back into office!!!
me
me no you no me hum hum duh
nothing to do about race on this side, what you like is your choice alone,
and I also think ZIMMERMAN is innocent, I hope they let him live his second life
because his first life is gone, and the racist who are threatening him and everyone connected
are better think twice, they have now on their conscience other CIVILIANS wounded by a group of black, 20 on one white man yelling TRAYVON and beating the man who is NOT CONCIOUS and other crimes of the same manner,
this has to do with race hate,
Here’s a problem for Zimmerman. He parked his truck at point (1). He then ran on the sidewalk, through the cut-through and all the way East/Right to Retreat View Circle. That’s more or less where he hung up from the 911 call. So if he was walking back to his truck, how come he wound up at point (6)? Point (6) is a good 20 feet down the path. This suggests that Zimmerman didn’t return to his truck but instead walked to his left down the path to point (6), where Martin asked him, “Why are you following me?”
@RobertSF:
Martin ran – according to both Zimmerman and “DeeDee”. Zimmerman probably followed in the direction that Martin had at a hurried shuffling walk. It was dark, he was carrying both a flashlight and a cell phone, was talking on the phone, and wearing boots. Martin was trying to evade Zimmerman (because he was white, sitting in his car, talking on the phone, and watching Martin).
Martin and “DeeDee” discussed his plan, that he would put his hoodie up, that he would walk past Zimmerman’s truck, run for his dad’s place once he was behind Zimmerman’s truck on the sidewalk area. Martin never reported seeing Zimmerman get out of his truck, was winded, had lost Zimmerman, and was by his da[d]’s place.
The assistant state attorney, Bernie de la Rionda thought she had said “by his ass, meaning [Zimmerman] was behind [Martin]” She was quite unequivocal that was not what had happened. He had run from behind the truck, was tired, had lost Zimmerman, was by his Dad’s place, continued to walk (not hide), and didn’t see Zimmerman for another two minutes. Martin was wearing sneakers, had his hands free because of the pouch and cell-phone pocket, had long legs, and was trying to evade Zimmerman (lose him). He succeeded in doing so.
The dispatcher asked if Zimmerman want to meet with the officer when they got “there”. From Zimmerman’s point of reference, “there” was where he was at, on the top of the tee, where he had stopped following in the direction Martin had run. From the dispatcher’s perspective, “there” is the address where he had dispatched two officer’s to (the clubhouse). The dispatcher asked where he wanted to meet at. Zimmerman wanted to meet “there”. The dispatcher didn’t really care, it could have been at Starbucks. Zimmerman begins to explain where he is at. The dispatcher wants an address to type into his computer. He wants the address of a truck that is not in front of any residence. He wants to know if Zimmerman lives in the area, or what apartment. He wants Zimmerman’s address, not as proof of residency, but as a meeting place. He finally suggests the mailboxes. Zimmerman is not there, and it might have as well have been Starbucks. So he asks that the officer call him so he can give directions.
It is likely after the call hung up, that he realized why the dispatcher wanted an address and walked down to the end of the sidewalk. If the officer had shown up then, he would have just told him to drive around to that address, and pointed him on toward the back gate. Since no one had called he started back to his truck.
@RobertSF:
Those who heard arguing are on the end units, with windows facing the east-west sidewalk, or even a unit to the north of that sidewalk. The southmost units that were witnesses were actually outside their units with their dogs. One was the boy whose dog ran off after he had seen wrestling, and the other had just come out to walk her dog, when she thought her elderly neighbor in the end unit was having a heart attack, and then heard another neighbor say something about 911 and she went back inside to call. The person who had opened their patio door to see the fighting said the sound had appeared to have started further away. And Zimmerman’s keys were found quite near to the T. The fighting could have moved some. The neighbor who saw the fighting closest, reported that the person on top had his back to him, or partially to an angle, and he saw the head of the person on the bottom when he lifted his head up. They then moved more to be parallel to the sidewalk. Martin apparently twisted to the side before he fell forward, or perhaps Zimmerman had pushed him as he tried to get out from under him. And then the body had been rolled to give CPR. And the body might have been moved a bit more to put it in the body bag. Presumably, you open the body bag out next to the body and then lift and then zip up the bag, and you’d want to avoid moving evidence.
JIMRTEX
YES IT MAKE SENSE, THANK YOU.
@JIMRTEX
I think you have nailed it down as far as it can be from deduction. GZ was obviously surprised by Martin. He had eyes on TM and lost him. He dropped his level of awareness when he lost his visual, found himself confronted by a person of unknown intent and motivation, whose sudden, violent action overwhelmed him. . That GZ allowed TM into such proximity would seem to show that a confrontation was not GZ’s foremost thought at that moment. Distance = Time= Safety. GZ failed to maintain the separation that would have possibly given him the ability to end the fight before it started.
BRIAN
HI,
I say” not fail” but was compelled to, because TM came running from GZ ‘S BACK YELLING I WILL KILL YOU
REDUCING THE GAP WHICH GZ NEEDED TO BE SECURED FROM ATTACK,
WHICH CAME IN IN A FURY UN EXPECTED, AS GZ TURNED TO FACE HIM.
BYE
@Brian: “That GZ allowed TM into such proximity would seem to show that a confrontation was not GZ’s foremost thought at that moment.”
===
I’ve heard something like that several times in one form or the other. Here’s a couple of reasons why it’s not a satisfactory hypothesis. First, it’s a stretch to believe that GZ went from being under the effects of adrenaline, hot from the chase and heart pounding, to strolling along with all the awareness of a little ol’ lady crossing the street. That’s not normal. Anybody would have walked back to the truck pretty warily. Second, the two didn’t bump into each other and start exchanging blows immediately, nor did TM come out of the blue and wordlessly attack GZ.
RobertSF
THE FACT IS THAT YOU ARE NOT GZ OR TM,
YOU ASSUME LIKE OF WHAT A PERSON LIKE YOU WOULD DO
BESIDE GZ WAS WALKING BACK TOWARD HIS CAR,
and what about the word of TM, I WILL KILL YOU, SAID
AT A CERTAIN POINT AROUND THAT TIME,
IT SURE DOES A REACTION BUT THE ACTION WHICH FOLLOWED FROM TM
DID NOT GIVE GZ TO MUCH TIME TO DO THAT REACTION,
WHAT KIND OF REACTION WOULD YOU HAVE DONE, WHEN YOU HEAR SOMEONE SAYING THAT?
RUN toward your car? no the other was on his heels, how about shoot him right then? no, GZ DID NOT THINK OF KILLING HIM, SO HE WAS BEAT UP, AND A BROKEN NOSE FROM A PUNCH, UNDERNEATH LOCKED ON THE GROUND, HE TRY TO ALERT HELP 14 TIMES, HE WAS BLEEDING PROFUSELY,
TM SAW THE GUN AND STRUGGLE TO GET IT, THAN HE SAID YOU GOT IT AND GZ SHOT HIM,
NOW WHAT WAS YOUR QUALM AGAINST HIM AGAIN?
@RobertSF:
It was about 4 minutes from when he had last seen Martin. He thought that Martin had long ago left exited the neighborhood.
@ RobertSF
GZ’s statement from the beginning was that TM approached him from the rear quarter and initiated a verbal and violently physical assault. If GZ was in the state you describe, without anything but your supposition to make it so, why was TM able to punch him down with the first punch? If GZ was in the physical state you assign him ,why was he so far behind the curve that he mounted no real defense or reaction until the struggle for the sidearm? I don’t think anyone can assign levels of awareness, adrenaline rush or any other stressor with any real degree of certainty. My statement reflected that GZ was surprised by TM and found himself disadvantaged and unable to counter the assault. The facts we do have, TM going MMA on GZ would support the idea of surprise and lack of awareness on GZ’s part. If he had been running on adrenaline , in the zone,focused on possible threats around him, I do not believe he would have stood there, flat-footed and let TM pummel him. Not to act, is to act, if GZ was tuned in to the rush,why was he unable to
react and contest the issue? His actions were not those of a combatant, at least not until he had been beaten down and was in fear for his life.
@Brian:
Let me guess: because Zimmerman was holding a flashlight in one hand and his cellphone in the other and being a neighborly fellow was inclined to respond to Martin’s question with a civil question rather than with his fists. It seems a reasonable guess that Zimmerman might have let his guard down because Zimmerman was aware of the fact that a patrolman was on his way. And as occasionally happens the aggressor got in a sucker punch and decked him. Thereafter pinned to the ground with 6’3′ Martin sitting on his waste MMA style, 5’8′ Zimmerman, a man with a much shorter boxing reach was at a severe disadvantage as Martin would obviously intend.
Even well trained boxers can get sucker punched as happened to Richard “The Alien” Grant, a light-heavyweight boxer, and EBA Light Heavyweight and Super Middleweight champion. He had a career record of 19-15-1, with 5 wins coming by way of knockout. On November 23, 2001, after a winning boxing match with James Butler, Grant met Butler in the middle of the ring for an expected exchange of congratulations. Suddenly, Butler hit the unsuspecting Grant with a right hook to the jaw, badly breaking Grant’s jaw.
Zimmerman’s behavior suggests, that like Richard Grant, Zimmerman’s actions were not at that moment those of a combatant. One wonders why this seems so difficult of some people to figure out.
Brian
hi, one thing come in mind , is when ZIMMERMAN REALIZE that TRAYVON notice the gun,
he then must have fought relay hard to keep that gun, it was to be his fight for life or death,and
the adrenaline which ROBERT SF MENTIONED ON A PREVIOUS COMMENT WHICH SHOULD HAVE BEEN THERE BEFORE TM GOT TOO CLOSE, TAKING AWAY HIS PROTECTIVE SPACE BETWEEN THEM, WHICH DID NOT HAPPENED THEN,
BUT CAME OUT SURGING AT THE END, FOR THE GUN, EVEN THAT HE MUST SURELY HAD PROBLEM TO BREED WITH HIS NOSE BROKEN, EVEN WITH THE OVER 6 FOOTER SITTING ON HIM, EVEN IF HE HAD HIS HEAD BASHED ON THE CONCRETE EDGE ON AND ON, EVEN THAT HE WAS BLEEDING FROM HIS HEAD, CREATING A BODY LOST OF ENERGY, WITH ALL THIS, HE SUCCEEDED TO HOLD ON HIS GUN,
THAT WAS HIS ULTIMATE STRUGGLE BEFORE HE WOULD COLLAPSE,
WAS NT IT? I can visualize that last rush of someone giving his last effort to live,
which would have been effortless has he shot the opponent before, at the same time when he saw him come fast and determine to kill him,
this prove that he was not a gun happy killer as the other side want to paint him.
bye
@ Bees
GZ’s actions and speech before and after the confrontation are vastly dissimilar. If he was in an alert and ready state, why was he surprised and overwhelmed by the violent assault? Tm was ready, GZ wasn’t.and that fact shaped the fight. That GZ was returning to his vehicle would support the thought that he was focused on meeting and coordinating with the LEO en route to his complex.
Brian
hi,
I don’t think a person can expect a wild animal to be coming on his back, in a CITY OF CITIZENS
WHO ARE CIVILIZE, WE ALL KNOW , THE JUNGLE ANIMAL RESIDE NOT IN THE CITY.
SO YES ANY ATTACKS NON REASONABLE IS VERY SURPRISING, LEAVING THE VICTIM OUTSIDE HIS ALARM SYSTEM, EVEN IF HE IS ALERT, BUT THE UNEXPECTED SURPRISE IS HARD TO SWITCH
THE PERSON ON DEFENSE MODE, IS IN IT WELL DEPENDING ON THE PERSON OF COURSE,
UNLESS THE ONE IS TRAINED ON REACTING QUICKLY TO ANYTHING, THAT IS THE MILITARY TRAINING ONLY, OR A PERSON LIVING ON A WIDE SPACE OF LAND WHERE HE IS USE TO EXPECT WILD ANIMAL TO ROAM AROUND AT TIME. THAT WOULD BE YOU.
BYE
@Mike O’Malley
There are, even at this late date,people who want to paint GZ as a pistol waving, foaming at the mouth mad dog killer of the Skittles loving underclass. The proof on the ground, on tape and video support the narrative GZ gave SPD when he waived counsel both the night of the shooting and at the walk-thru after he was treated for injuries he received from the criminal assault. None of his actions before during and after the violence support criminal intent. He wipes his shoes off at SPD so someone wouldn’t have to clean on his account, actions of a racist killer or someone who is human enough to recognize and respect others.
@Brian:
And ironically of a Black Peruvian Hispanic American …
One is compelled to wonder who would care if some black Hispanic gang member of MS13, say named Jorge, blew Trayvon Martin away outside the 7-11 in a drive-by shooting?