DrJohn,
his family, have disapeard of course, but seing that kind of butchering
must be hard on them,
where where those guardians of him, they must have been killed also, and butcher too I imagine,
but no one is answering those side questions we all think about.
FedUp
14 years ago
And we should care, why??? He was responsible for worse actions than that!!!
rich wheeler, you do like the way he was bleeded and kill when he was dying,
just for the video effect, there was a international tribunal waiting for him,
so don’t give us that bulshit , just look at the next government,
rich wheeler
14 years ago
Dr. J. Given the opportunity I’d beat the shit out of any low life mass murderer I came in contact with.
Bees I’ve got no problem with the way the S.O.B. died.
drjohn
14 years ago
@rich wheeler: That’s pretty disappointing to hear from a Marine. Lefties get their panties in a twist if a SEAL gives a detainee a fat lip and you’d beat the sh*t out of them.
You’re no better than Gaddafi. You don’t believe in that “human rights” thing either.
And you say I’m his fan. He might as well be your daddy.
rich wheeler KNOWING WHO YOU REPRESENT.
no, you would not,
if you would have been there and see them holding while another is cutting him off bleeding him,
you would have take your gun and shoot them if they would not respond to your command,
and take the criminal under the protection umbrella you could give,
why, because you are a proud MARINE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
TRAINED HARDLY TO A SELF DISCIPLIN BEHAVIOR.
AND THAT IS NOT WHAT YOU AND THEY ARE ABOUT.
Bees I’ve got no problem with the way the S.O.B. died.
You’re a fan of vigilante street justice, eh?
You’re a fan of a wounded man being sodomized, eh?
You’re a fan of a wounded, unarmed man being shot dead while begging for his life, eh?
Wow… how sad for you.
rich wheeler
14 years ago
Dr. J. All here know your consistant support for the Mad Colonel. I tell you and Bees again GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY I’d execute the bastard and save all the time and money.I’m speaking as a civilian and not an active duty Marine Corps Officer.
Aye I don’t consider him a man. So be it.
@rich wheeler, while I can understand the emotions of vigilante justice – had a few myself in the past – , I’m willing to bet that, as a former Marine, you would not execute a captured and subdued prisoner. And if you decided to, you know very well you’d be brought to justice.
I would also be willing to bet you wouldn’t have a problem paying for your vigilante actions, as it is the way of our country, and many others.
Apparently, even with discovering the mass graves of those murdered by those “freedom fighting” rebels, the new Libya doesn’t see trial and sentencing as part of their current limbo status. They also are sticking to the story of “cross fire” and still have done nothing to demonstrate that freedom in Libya includes trials and sentencing. Now it’s not only the UN and human rights groups wanting to see some investigations of war crimes, it’s also the US and Britain.
There is no pride nor honor in supporting how this was handled on site, nor how it is being handled in the aftermath. By being gleeful and unapologetic, you portray Americans as being emotional thugs with no respect for even our own judicial system.
Instead, the behavior of the rebels is proving what too many of us have been worried about when O’butthead decided to involve the US in a civil war,and stab an intel ally in the back…. that the new boss is no different than the old boss. And perhaps even worse.
I don’t care about Gaddafi, but I do care what effect a new and worse Libya will have on US intel garnished from that region. And I’ve seen a perfect example of that future with the animal on animal behavior in sundry videos.
The US should never have been involved, or chosen sides. The POTUS should have done the same as Bush did when Musharraf was being ostracized in his country… state that he has been a good friend to the US, but Pakistan’s business was Pakistan’s business. Period.
Yup, drj… you had it pegged exactly right in the other thread when you said that the new Libya had a chance to show the world they would be an improvement over Gaddafi. oops… apparently not.
I used to think that Americans would find such war crimes abhorrent. It’s actually somewhat frightening to see how many here tend to let their emotions excuse simple ROEs and humane laws. It doesn’t make me feel any better that they are okay with it as long as it’s done by someone else, somewhere else. It’s just a betrayal of the principles we’ve been suckled on in this nation…. that even tho we find free speech offensive, that speech we don’t like also has protection. And that once someone has been captured, subdued, with no chance of escape, you don’t brutalize and execute them. I am still boggled by so many finding this quite acceptable, merely because they don’t like the subject captured. Well where does that slippery slope of approval end? It’s okay behavior except when you like the subject, or have more sympathy?
Yes, it is all about being better than those you abhor, and not falling prey to animal instincts. You are either governed by emotions, or by laws. We’ve seen where Libya is headed, and heaven help us for the loss of yet another ally.
Yes, it is all about being better than those you abhor, and not falling prey to animal instincts. You are either governed by emotions, or by laws.
You’ve both admirably expressed one of the principal arguments against the use of “enhanced interrogation” (aka, torture), against detainees in the war on terror (let’s leave aside the efficacy debate for a moment). I’d be curious how many people here think it’s ok for the US to water board a mass murderer like KSM 183 times, but it’s not okay for Libyans to brutalize the mass murderer Gadaffi after they’ve detained him.
sigh… predictable meme and prime example of the insanity that runs amok amongst mush heads.
Newsflash… sodomy and executions are not EITs. And if you’ll also remember, the US brought soldiers to trial for Abu Ghraib. duh The US does not maim, kill or sodomize POWs or enemy combatants as policy. Any deviation from that policy is prosecuted, unlike in the new-boss-same-as-the-old-boss Libya.
Waterboarding, loud music and sleep deprivation is not even close to what was done to Gaddafi. What you lib/progs consider torture is laughable.
I’ll trade the waterboarding and sleep deprivation and cold and chest slapping anytime for your knife-sodomy, beating and murder.
KSM was not strapped to a board 183 times.
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III
14 years ago
Nuke em!
Tom
14 years ago
sflash… sodomy and executions are not EITs.
KSM is still alive.
Knew you’d go there first. It’s the most obvious move, the ‘matter of degree’ argument. Unfortunately, arguing that whatever happened to Gadaffi is worse than waterboarding has no bearing upon whether waterboarding is in itself right or wrong, an appropriate practice for a nation governed by laws, not emotions. You both couched your objection to Gadaffi’s torture on moral grounds, not practical. Since you introduced morality into the discussion, not me, your responses to my question should be to address how the morality of Gadaffi’s treatment is inconsistant with the principles of the United States, whereas the same cannot be said for waterboarding. Your other option is to punt on morality and reposition your argument on practical terms, something along the lines of ‘the-ends-justify-the-means’, which is where you’ll likely end up anyway. Up to you. What you can’t do is put words into my mouth that I never said, for example, this ‘matter of degree’ strawman.
What you can’t do is put words into my mouth that I never said, for example, this ‘matter of degree’ strawman.
Wow… speaking of putting words in mouths… I didn’t say strawman. Confused much?
Knew you’d go there first. It’s the most obvious move, the ‘matter of degree’ argument. Unfortunately, arguing that whatever happened to Gadaffi is worse than waterboarding has no bearing upon whether waterboarding is in itself right or wrong, an appropriate practice for a nation governed by laws, not emotions.
EITs are all about a “matter of degree” and rule of law. Sodomy and executions are not part of our EITs, our rule of law, or our principles. When our soldiers go outside our rules of law in EITs, they are prosecuted. So what’s your point?
Tom
14 years ago
So what’s your point?
This isn’t very complicated, although throwing up a smoke screen seems to be a favorite tactic of yours for avoiding a direct question. My point is your reaction to Gaddafi’s demise, that little morality lecture to the Libyan people, is very similar to arguments used against enhanced interrogation. Assuming you’re not denying those arguments exist, and that you believe what you wrote about “being better than those you abhor, and not falling prey to animal instincts”, how do you square your support for EI? Perhaps you just possess a remarkable forbearance for cognitive dissonance.
Tom: This isn’t very complicated, although throwing up a smoke screen seems to be a favorite tactic of yours for avoiding a direct question. My point is your reaction to Gaddafi’s demise, that little morality lecture to the Libyan people, is very similar to arguments used against enhanced interrogation.
Apparently it’s quite complex for you. First of all, it was you who threw up the EIT smoke screen. Secondly, that you and your easily offended chums use the “morality” lecture against EITs doesn’t make it correct. Just exceedingly dumb, extreme, and unrelated. Interrogation isn’t based on emotion and revenge, and has a specific purpose in mind… HUMINT. And your hypersensitive degree on what is torture indicates you’re one of those watercooler types who is easily offended.
BTW, I do believe that I owe an apology to animals everywhere. Animals do not engage in this type of behavior for amusement or revenge as a rule. This, of course, puts “Libyan freedom fighters” (what an oxymoron) on a scale well below animals.
TOM I see you have a big problem,
your mixing the 2 without balance of any kind,
it is not even close comparison,
so get off your high horse and stop trying to involve our conservative in your story making,
and by the way your first comment answering mine ,was thanking me for agreeing with you, and that was not the case,at all, I let it go, but MATA SENSE THAT, you are trying to put words in our mouth that are
not spoken, a bad habit of you’res, if you think it has pass you think again, because we choose to pass small errors but we know your intent always.
take care
that you and your easily offended chums use the “morality” lecture against EITs doesn’t make it correct.
Oh, where did I tell you that was my argument? I said it was an argument, never said it was mine and you never asked. And considering you are employing the same argument to scold the Libyans, that’s a strange way to characterize it.
I’ll take your unwillingness or inabilitity to respond to a straight forward question for what it is. Thanks for playing.
Mata: that you and your easily offended chums use the “morality” lecture against EITs doesn’t make it correct.
Tom: Oh, where did I tell you that was my argument? I said it was an argument, never said it was mine and you never asked.
Oh, mea culpa, Tom. My apologies. I had no idea you were such a supporter of EITs. So why don’t you tell us how you believe that it’s a silly argument to compare sodomy, maiming, dismemberment and lynch mob execution to our soldiers and intel personnel’s EITs. The floor is yours.
Oh yes… I did answer your “direct question”. My support for EITs is exactly as stated. I do not equate waterboarding, loud music or sleep deprivation with sodomy, maiming, dismemberment and execution. Now, is there anything in that sentence that you don’t understand? Be happy to help you.
Who gives a flying ****??? Honestly, this should and will serves as a valuable lesson to the thugs of the world that when you mess with the bull (people backed by the United States), you get the horn (knife in the ass).
It mean it’s unreal how the bleeding-heart liberals here at Flopping Aces have shown themselves to be the staunches defenders of the American-killing scum of Africa. Aye, I’m thinking about you when I wrote that last sentence.
Boo-Phucking-who, An American-killer got what what he deserved. Let’s all burst into tears, shall we?
IVAN, why do you switch from smart to insulting other smart person from FA,
you give the feeling that you can be one sober or the other drunk,
Hard Right
14 years ago
So let’s see, the lefties are against EIT, and the death penalty, but the cruel murder of a (dispicible) dictator is ok.
Yeah, that’s a consistent standard to uphold. (roll eyes).
@Ivan: Dude, get real. Aye, Mata, etc. are beyond vituperative. I only treat them as they treat me.
ya gotta be kidding me….
Yo, Ivan. Have Aye or myself addressed you at all on this thread, warranting some direct insults out of the blue here?
And you wonder why you’re responded to with disdain and amusement?
Thus your “I only treat them as they treat me” whining… your usual state of being, I might add… is again oh so amusing as you demand respect and civility, while ignoring that it is you who sets the tone from the start. And thank you for, yet again, another perfect example.
Honestly, this should and will serves as a valuable lesson to the thugs of the world that when you mess with the bull (people backed by the United States), you get the horn (knife in the ass).
Who messed with the US?
richard wheeler
14 years ago
Those who choose to address the POTUS through childlike derogatory name calling yet bemoan the brutal death of a mass murderer of American soldiers and civilians are living in a strange world.
Death with extreme prejudice to those who kill the innocents.
rich wheeler, you could not be more off the beaten path in facts and relevance here.
Name calling is not akin to sodomy, maiming, dismemberment and executiion.
No one I’ve seen here “bemoans” Gaddafi’s death. We “bemoan” that the new thug bosses are the same as the old thug boss, and the US helped them get into power.
It’s really fatiguing to have to constantly explain the obvious to the oblivious. Perhaps if you remove your partisan rose colored glasses, you may stop misinterpreting sentiments you seize on to bolster your anti-conservative feelings. Shame on you. You know most of the people here better than that.
richard wheeler
14 years ago
Mata I said bemoans his BRUTAL death.I respect your posts but feel childlike name calling of the POTUS beneath you.
BTW It’s gonna be pretty damn hard for the new Libyan govt. to outdo the atrocities of the Mad Colonel and his henchmen.
Might I repeat, no one bemoans his brutal death. We bemoan that the thugs taking over are no better than the thug they brutally murdered. This seems extremely difficult for you to grasp.
And considering how Obama has personally used the very public bully pulpit to describe those, like me, who disagree with him in derogatory terms, I will refer to him as I wish. Perhaps you should be considering this POTUS childlike schoolyard bully and use of language instead of mine. His represents the most powerful leader in the nation and broadcast on national and international public media. Mine represents only mine, and seen only by the eyes who gravitate to FA.
I suggest you get your complaints about name calling and derogatory references in the proper priority.
richard wheeler
14 years ago
Mata PLS. correct me if I’m mistaken but Dr.J.,Aye, Ms.Bees,and H.R. all took exception (bemoaned) the brutal vigilante killing of the scumbag, mass murdering dictator.Do you condone the way he died?
It doesn’t bother me a damn bit and I think MOST here agree.
To the last direct question to me, personally. Of course I don’t condone the way he died. It goes against every principle as an American I was raised with. Have I ever been so emotional I wanted to swing, and damn the repercussions? Of course. Who hasn’t. But what stops me is that inherent belief that it is not my task to be the judge, jury and executioner.
And correct you I will. Drj and I… who often wage battle… are in total agreement. When he said “Because if you don’t treat him better than he treated you, you are no better than him. “, you came back with a snide comment about his “loss” of the Colonel. That was not what he said, but you were determined to see it your own way.
Aye was also distinctly clear about the shared beef we have, when he said to you… specifically…
You’re a fan of vigilante street justice, eh?
You’re a fan of a wounded man being sodomized, eh?
You’re a fan of a wounded, unarmed man being shot dead while begging for his life, eh?
Americans are not raised to condone vigilante justice. But apparently some think it’s okay when they don’t like the target. Well that’s like loving the 1st amendment, as long as you agree with what someone is saying.
Hard Rights only comment on this thread was #35… where he did no “bemoaning” but noted the idiocy of whining about EITs, but embracing vigilante justice. Excellent point that cannot be refuted.
richard wheeler
14 years ago
Mata Glad you agree that all mentioned including yourself felt the brutal way the Colonel died was excessive.
So be it. I DO NOT CONCUR.
Keep up the good work. Suggested reading “Matterhorn” OUT
More examples of your “it’s them, Ms. Bees, not *me*!” victim acts, Herr Ivan’ski?
You wanna know how to get Mata/Aye? They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. *That’s* the *Chicago* way! And that’s how you get Mata/Aye. Now do you want to do that? Are you ready to do that? I’m offering you a deal. Do you want this deal?
Yes, it is all about being better than those you abhor, and not falling prey to animal instincts. You are either governed by emotions, or by laws
to which I basically asked, how would one square that statement with support for enhanced interrogation, considering your statement hews very closely to one of the principal arguments against it; or as HR helpfully pointed out in #39, to be for one but against the other would not be a consistent standard.
Your response was to point out:
sodomy and executions are not EITs
As I explained to you, this response does not address the fundamental question but is rather an attempt at splitting hairs.
The most common argument for EIT, that the ends justify the means, is also beside the point in this debate, since that line of reasoning implicitly cedes the moral high ground you staked and which I questioned. As I see it, the only response is to claim that enhanced interrogation is in fact not torture and does not run counter to American principles.
Ah, what an interesting debate it could have been.
Finally, as promised, an answer to your question:
So why don’t you tell us how you believe that it’s a silly argument to compare sodomy, maiming, dismemberment and lynch mob execution to our soldiers and intel personnel’s EITs. The floor is yours
.
I actually agree with you on the ultimate demise of Gadaffi being a black eye for Libya. I also believe enhanced interrogation has been a black eye for the US and has eroded some of our moral standing in the world. A line was crossed, a perception of what America stands for was changed, and that ground will be hard to reclaim. That’s just my opinion of course.
It’s been a pleasure, Mata. We should have more of these debates about how we disagree about how to have debates at some time in the future, but hopefully not too soon.
Lawdy, that’s it? Seriously? Truly, Tom, that was pathetic.
First of all, I’m not sure why you think anyone needs a “recap” with your selective editorial narrative. The entire conversation is above via a simple scroll for anyone to read. Additionally, I provided links on the other thread where you ran, in order to drive you back here.
Are you under the assumption that people here are unable to read on their own, and need to be led around by the nose by you, in order to see the light and comprehend the continuum of events? And I especially love how you left out the hyped up heinous abuse of KSM you used in your “basically asked” question… like that wouldn’t give us a heads up to who you are.
And after pushing you for some clarity after your huffy departure, filled with indignant accusations and hurled false charges about me dodging your questions, with more than a few personal (not the “assigned” group type) insults thrown in, this is all you come up with?
Boyo… was Aye spot on with nailing jello….
I basically asked, how would one square that statement with support for enhanced interrogation, considering your statement hews very closely to one of the principal arguments against it; or as HR helpfully pointed out in #39, to be for one but against the other would not be a consistent standard.
Your response was to point out:
sodomy and executions are not EITs
Let’s get this straight. I answered your question. Don’t ask me for a review on the apple pie when I just had the chicken piccata. EITs and interrogations for intel… whether for law enforcment or our intel service personnel… are not the same as vigilante mob executions.
Apparently you didn’t like that answer.. or was that your vague third party persona, who doesn’t give opinions, who didn’t like it? Instead you erroneously evoke Hard Right’s analogy, but attempt to reverse it. HR’s observation was that many condone the vigilantism, and then whine about the EITs… which makes no sense. Not because they are the equivalent, but because they are so very different.
You, because you see no difference between the two, considered the two interchangeable… and therefore reversible.
You flew out of here, seeking harbor in another thread on the same subject in a drama queen huff… saying I falsely accused you of believing what, apparently, you do believe after all. Needless to say, your theatrics over what was accurate were quite amusing and now, in retrospect, quite embarrassing for you.
What’s particularly sad and ineffective is your weak sense of self and lack of passion about your own convictions, Tom. This makes you a lack luster person with whom to debate since you’re nothing but a moving target of platitudes, followed by victimization when met with dissent.
It’s like dancing with a dishrag.
When given the chance to speak clearly on whether or not you thought our US military and intel personnel were the equivalent to the Libyan vigilante thugs, you hid behind more vagaries… what “the world” perceives as a black eye of the US because of EITs and mumble some jumbo about ends and means. (gee.. where does that political crap come from, I wonder… LOL)
I didn’t ask about the world perceptions. Never was the issue. The world (if you feel omnipotent enough to speak for the entire world) thinking that both Libya and the US have a “black eye” wasn’t the question. The question was do you believe that American EITs are equal to revenge and vigilantism.
And you think I demonstrate “unwillingness or inability to respond to a straight forward question”? Well ain’t that a hoot.
I’d like to echo your shallow “it’s been a pleasure” bit, Tom. Quite frankly, I’m not sure I can scrape the surface of my own strength of convictions to muster up a thin enough layer of BS to say the same. But I have to say, a hopefully not too soon” debate with you isn’t much of anything to either miss, or look forward to. I’d hardly know you were gone. If you can’t definitively state who you are and what you believe, one might as well have a passive moderator to mindlessly parrot the opposition talking points to keep a discussion going. Useless.
Cyber conversation with those who always present a facade in the “third party” attitude, and then play victim and run when met with dissent, don’t strike me as challenging. Just a waste of bandwidth. Not to mention someone who must be seriously uncomfortable with who he is when dealing with others.
Tom
14 years ago
When given the chance to speak clearly on whether or not you thought our US military and intel personnel were the equivalent to the Libyan vigilante thugs
What a shocker, Mata. You tried to put more words in my mouth and expect me to defend something I never said. Yet once again, after another barrage of indignation and personal attack, you still duck the pertinent question, i.e., whether enhanced interrogation is consistent with American principles. That tells me you are quite aware of your hypocrisy and will do everything you can to not have to defend it. I also get that you’re a know-it-all who has no intellectual curiosity -i.e., all you care about is ‘winning’ your little tussles, so you move from bullying, to personal attack, onto misrepresenting the other side’s arguments, to finally these filibuster posts with never ending paragraphs essentially saying nothing. But when given multiple chances to respond to a simple question… zilch. But you are good at danging a hook, because I couldn’t resists responding to the above. I have to say, you’ve reached a sadly predictable new low with this concept that I think our intel and military are murderous thugs. Is that in your little Right Wing fanatic handbook? “When in doubt, accuse Lib/Prog of being against our troops to get the peanut gallery in an uproar”. Sad, really. For the record, it’s the Bush Administration that deserves any blame for enhanced interrogation, not people simply doing their jobs. You really a piece of work and really quite pathological in your intellectual dishonesty
Apparently with a knife, no less/
DrJohn,
his family, have disapeard of course, but seing that kind of butchering
must be hard on them,
where where those guardians of him, they must have been killed also, and butcher too I imagine,
but no one is answering those side questions we all think about.
And we should care, why??? He was responsible for worse actions than that!!!
@FedUp: Because if you don’t treat him better than he treated you, you are no better than him.
Dr. J. We all know how much you cared for the Col. Sorry for your loss.
Semper Fi Death “with extreme predjudice” to tyrants
@rich wheeler: So Rich, were you one of those who beat the sh*t out of detainees?
rich wheeler, you do like the way he was bleeded and kill when he was dying,
just for the video effect, there was a international tribunal waiting for him,
so don’t give us that bulshit , just look at the next government,
Dr. J. Given the opportunity I’d beat the shit out of any low life mass murderer I came in contact with.
Bees I’ve got no problem with the way the S.O.B. died.
@rich wheeler: That’s pretty disappointing to hear from a Marine. Lefties get their panties in a twist if a SEAL gives a detainee a fat lip and you’d beat the sh*t out of them.
You’re no better than Gaddafi. You don’t believe in that “human rights” thing either.
And you say I’m his fan. He might as well be your daddy.
rich wheeler KNOWING WHO YOU REPRESENT.
no, you would not,
if you would have been there and see them holding while another is cutting him off bleeding him,
you would have take your gun and shoot them if they would not respond to your command,
and take the criminal under the protection umbrella you could give,
why, because you are a proud MARINE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
TRAINED HARDLY TO A SELF DISCIPLIN BEHAVIOR.
AND THAT IS NOT WHAT YOU AND THEY ARE ABOUT.
@rich wheeler:
You’re a fan of vigilante street justice, eh?
You’re a fan of a wounded man being sodomized, eh?
You’re a fan of a wounded, unarmed man being shot dead while begging for his life, eh?
Wow… how sad for you.
Dr. J. All here know your consistant support for the Mad Colonel. I tell you and Bees again GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY I’d execute the bastard and save all the time and money.I’m speaking as a civilian and not an active duty Marine Corps Officer.
Aye I don’t consider him a man. So be it.
@rich wheeler: The Few.
The Proud.
The Vigilantes.
Dr. J. “Physician heal thyself” of O.D.S. For the 5th and last time I ask What is your actual profession?
@rich wheeler: Realtor Torturer.
@rich wheeler, while I can understand the emotions of vigilante justice – had a few myself in the past – , I’m willing to bet that, as a former Marine, you would not execute a captured and subdued prisoner. And if you decided to, you know very well you’d be brought to justice.
I would also be willing to bet you wouldn’t have a problem paying for your vigilante actions, as it is the way of our country, and many others.
Apparently, even with discovering the mass graves of those murdered by those “freedom fighting” rebels, the new Libya doesn’t see trial and sentencing as part of their current limbo status. They also are sticking to the story of “cross fire” and still have done nothing to demonstrate that freedom in Libya includes trials and sentencing. Now it’s not only the UN and human rights groups wanting to see some investigations of war crimes, it’s also the US and Britain.
There is no pride nor honor in supporting how this was handled on site, nor how it is being handled in the aftermath. By being gleeful and unapologetic, you portray Americans as being emotional thugs with no respect for even our own judicial system.
Instead, the behavior of the rebels is proving what too many of us have been worried about when O’butthead decided to involve the US in a civil war,and stab an intel ally in the back…. that the new boss is no different than the old boss. And perhaps even worse.
I don’t care about Gaddafi, but I do care what effect a new and worse Libya will have on US intel garnished from that region. And I’ve seen a perfect example of that future with the animal on animal behavior in sundry videos.
The US should never have been involved, or chosen sides. The POTUS should have done the same as Bush did when Musharraf was being ostracized in his country… state that he has been a good friend to the US, but Pakistan’s business was Pakistan’s business. Period.
@MataHarley: Totally agree.
It’s not about defending Gaddafi. You need to be better than him.
Yup, drj… you had it pegged exactly right in the other thread when you said that the new Libya had a chance to show the world they would be an improvement over Gaddafi. oops… apparently not.
I used to think that Americans would find such war crimes abhorrent. It’s actually somewhat frightening to see how many here tend to let their emotions excuse simple ROEs and humane laws. It doesn’t make me feel any better that they are okay with it as long as it’s done by someone else, somewhere else. It’s just a betrayal of the principles we’ve been suckled on in this nation…. that even tho we find free speech offensive, that speech we don’t like also has protection. And that once someone has been captured, subdued, with no chance of escape, you don’t brutalize and execute them. I am still boggled by so many finding this quite acceptable, merely because they don’t like the subject captured. Well where does that slippery slope of approval end? It’s okay behavior except when you like the subject, or have more sympathy?
Yes, it is all about being better than those you abhor, and not falling prey to animal instincts. You are either governed by emotions, or by laws. We’ve seen where Libya is headed, and heaven help us for the loss of yet another ally.
Rich Wheeler,
no you would not. because
ONCE A MARINE, ALWAYS A MARINE
PATVANN
HI
WHAT do you think
as a top MARINE
@drjohn:
@MataHarley:
You’ve both admirably expressed one of the principal arguments against the use of “enhanced interrogation” (aka, torture), against detainees in the war on terror (let’s leave aside the efficacy debate for a moment). I’d be curious how many people here think it’s ok for the US to water board a mass murderer like KSM 183 times, but it’s not okay for Libyans to brutalize the mass murderer Gadaffi after they’ve detained him.
sigh… predictable meme and prime example of the insanity that runs amok amongst mush heads.
Newsflash… sodomy and executions are not EITs. And if you’ll also remember, the US brought soldiers to trial for Abu Ghraib. duh The US does not maim, kill or sodomize POWs or enemy combatants as policy. Any deviation from that policy is prosecuted, unlike in the new-boss-same-as-the-old-boss Libya.
Waterboarding, loud music and sleep deprivation is not even close to what was done to Gaddafi. What you lib/progs consider torture is laughable.
@Tom: KSM is still alive.
I’ll trade the waterboarding and sleep deprivation and cold and chest slapping anytime for your knife-sodomy, beating and murder.
KSM was not strapped to a board 183 times.
Nuke em!
Knew you’d go there first. It’s the most obvious move, the ‘matter of degree’ argument. Unfortunately, arguing that whatever happened to Gadaffi is worse than waterboarding has no bearing upon whether waterboarding is in itself right or wrong, an appropriate practice for a nation governed by laws, not emotions. You both couched your objection to Gadaffi’s torture on moral grounds, not practical. Since you introduced morality into the discussion, not me, your responses to my question should be to address how the morality of Gadaffi’s treatment is inconsistant with the principles of the United States, whereas the same cannot be said for waterboarding. Your other option is to punt on morality and reposition your argument on practical terms, something along the lines of ‘the-ends-justify-the-means’, which is where you’ll likely end up anyway. Up to you. What you can’t do is put words into my mouth that I never said, for example, this ‘matter of degree’ strawman.
Wow… speaking of putting words in mouths… I didn’t say strawman. Confused much?
EITs are all about a “matter of degree” and rule of law. Sodomy and executions are not part of our EITs, our rule of law, or our principles. When our soldiers go outside our rules of law in EITs, they are prosecuted. So what’s your point?
This isn’t very complicated, although throwing up a smoke screen seems to be a favorite tactic of yours for avoiding a direct question. My point is your reaction to Gaddafi’s demise, that little morality lecture to the Libyan people, is very similar to arguments used against enhanced interrogation. Assuming you’re not denying those arguments exist, and that you believe what you wrote about “being better than those you abhor, and not falling prey to animal instincts”, how do you square your support for EI? Perhaps you just possess a remarkable forbearance for cognitive dissonance.
Apparently it’s quite complex for you. First of all, it was you who threw up the EIT smoke screen. Secondly, that you and your easily offended chums use the “morality” lecture against EITs doesn’t make it correct. Just exceedingly dumb, extreme, and unrelated. Interrogation isn’t based on emotion and revenge, and has a specific purpose in mind… HUMINT. And your hypersensitive degree on what is torture indicates you’re one of those watercooler types who is easily offended.
BTW, I do believe that I owe an apology to animals everywhere. Animals do not engage in this type of behavior for amusement or revenge as a rule. This, of course, puts “Libyan freedom fighters” (what an oxymoron) on a scale well below animals.
@Tom:
Hmmm…. Sort of like the guy who wrote #34 on that other thread?
Hypocrisy… thy name is Tom.
TOM I see you have a big problem,
your mixing the 2 without balance of any kind,
it is not even close comparison,
so get off your high horse and stop trying to involve our conservative in your story making,
and by the way your first comment answering mine ,was thanking me for agreeing with you, and that was not the case,at all, I let it go, but MATA SENSE THAT, you are trying to put words in our mouth that are
not spoken, a bad habit of you’res, if you think it has pass you think again, because we choose to pass small errors but we know your intent always.
take care
What did the Russians do to Hitler and Eva Braun?
@MataHarley:
Oh, where did I tell you that was my argument? I said it was an argument, never said it was mine and you never asked. And considering you are employing the same argument to scold the Libyans, that’s a strange way to characterize it.
I’ll take your unwillingness or inabilitity to respond to a straight forward question for what it is. Thanks for playing.
Oh, mea culpa, Tom. My apologies. I had no idea you were such a supporter of EITs. So why don’t you tell us how you believe that it’s a silly argument to compare sodomy, maiming, dismemberment and lynch mob execution to our soldiers and intel personnel’s EITs. The floor is yours.
Oh yes… I did answer your “direct question”. My support for EITs is exactly as stated. I do not equate waterboarding, loud music or sleep deprivation with sodomy, maiming, dismemberment and execution. Now, is there anything in that sentence that you don’t understand? Be happy to help you.
@mos 8541:
Nothing.
Both of them committed suicide.
AYE
hi
thank you, I was curious to get the answer. bye
TOM, by the way are you talking about ET the ALIEN?
WOOPS, I could not resist that one
bye
@drjohn:
Who gives a flying ****??? Honestly, this should and will serves as a valuable lesson to the thugs of the world that when you mess with the bull (people backed by the United States), you get the horn (knife in the ass).
It mean it’s unreal how the bleeding-heart liberals here at Flopping Aces have shown themselves to be the staunches defenders of the American-killing scum of Africa. Aye, I’m thinking about you when I wrote that last sentence.
Boo-Phucking-who, An American-killer got what what he deserved. Let’s all burst into tears, shall we?
IVAN, why do you switch from smart to insulting other smart person from FA,
you give the feeling that you can be one sober or the other drunk,
So let’s see, the lefties are against EIT, and the death penalty, but the cruel murder of a (dispicible) dictator is ok.
Yeah, that’s a consistent standard to uphold. (roll eyes).
@ilovebeeswarzone:
Dude, get real. Aye, Mata, etc. are beyond vituperative. I only treat them as they treat me. If they want respect, let them earn it.
But no, Aye will continue to insult me and Mata will also. They don’t attack my arguments, only me.
I have an idea, Bee: Demand they clean up their act before attacking me. CIAO!!!
ya gotta be kidding me….
Yo, Ivan. Have Aye or myself addressed you at all on this thread, warranting some direct insults out of the blue here?
And you wonder why you’re responded to with disdain and amusement?
Thus your “I only treat them as they treat me” whining… your usual state of being, I might add… is again oh so amusing as you demand respect and civility, while ignoring that it is you who sets the tone from the start. And thank you for, yet again, another perfect example.
@Tom:
A couple of things.
I said KSM was not strapped to a board 182 times because you inaccurately stated he was.
I said that one needs to be better than that which he criticizes.
EIT’s are FAR better and FAR preferable than the mutilations and beheadings doled out by AQ and the Taliban.
You seem to have missed that.
@Ivan:
Who messed with the US?
Those who choose to address the POTUS through childlike derogatory name calling yet bemoan the brutal death of a mass murderer of American soldiers and civilians are living in a strange world.
Death with extreme prejudice to those who kill the innocents.
rich wheeler, you could not be more off the beaten path in facts and relevance here.
Name calling is not akin to sodomy, maiming, dismemberment and executiion.
No one I’ve seen here “bemoans” Gaddafi’s death. We “bemoan” that the new thug bosses are the same as the old thug boss, and the US helped them get into power.
It’s really fatiguing to have to constantly explain the obvious to the oblivious. Perhaps if you remove your partisan rose colored glasses, you may stop misinterpreting sentiments you seize on to bolster your anti-conservative feelings. Shame on you. You know most of the people here better than that.
Mata I said bemoans his BRUTAL death.I respect your posts but feel childlike name calling of the POTUS beneath you.
BTW It’s gonna be pretty damn hard for the new Libyan govt. to outdo the atrocities of the Mad Colonel and his henchmen.
Might I repeat, no one bemoans his brutal death. We bemoan that the thugs taking over are no better than the thug they brutally murdered. This seems extremely difficult for you to grasp.
And considering how Obama has personally used the very public bully pulpit to describe those, like me, who disagree with him in derogatory terms, I will refer to him as I wish. Perhaps you should be considering this POTUS childlike schoolyard bully and use of language instead of mine. His represents the most powerful leader in the nation and broadcast on national and international public media. Mine represents only mine, and seen only by the eyes who gravitate to FA.
I suggest you get your complaints about name calling and derogatory references in the proper priority.
Mata PLS. correct me if I’m mistaken but Dr.J.,Aye, Ms.Bees,and H.R. all took exception (bemoaned) the brutal vigilante killing of the scumbag, mass murdering dictator.Do you condone the way he died?
It doesn’t bother me a damn bit and I think MOST here agree.
To the last direct question to me, personally. Of course I don’t condone the way he died. It goes against every principle as an American I was raised with. Have I ever been so emotional I wanted to swing, and damn the repercussions? Of course. Who hasn’t. But what stops me is that inherent belief that it is not my task to be the judge, jury and executioner.
And correct you I will. Drj and I… who often wage battle… are in total agreement. When he said “Because if you don’t treat him better than he treated you, you are no better than him. “, you came back with a snide comment about his “loss” of the Colonel. That was not what he said, but you were determined to see it your own way.
Aye was also distinctly clear about the shared beef we have, when he said to you… specifically…
Americans are not raised to condone vigilante justice. But apparently some think it’s okay when they don’t like the target. Well that’s like loving the 1st amendment, as long as you agree with what someone is saying.
Hard Rights only comment on this thread was #35… where he did no “bemoaning” but noted the idiocy of whining about EITs, but embracing vigilante justice. Excellent point that cannot be refuted.
Mata Glad you agree that all mentioned including yourself felt the brutal way the Colonel died was excessive.
So be it. I DO NOT CONCUR.
Keep up the good work. Suggested reading “Matterhorn” OUT
… sigh. Still goes over the head and thru the ears.
@drjohn:
\
Lay off the stupid pills.
More examples of your “it’s them, Ms. Bees, not *me*!” victim acts, Herr Ivan’ski?
@MataHarley:
You wanna know how to get Mata/Aye? They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. *That’s* the *Chicago* way! And that’s how you get Mata/Aye. Now do you want to do that? Are you ready to do that? I’m offering you a deal. Do you want this deal?
I believe, Herr Ivan’ski, that you just proved you don’t need to see a knife in order to pull a gun. LOL
To quote the inimitable Aye, “thanks for playing”
IVAN, don’t you prefer the good old punch on the nose and another knock out
on the mouth
deal or no deal
@MataHarley:
A quick recap. Here is your initial quote:
to which I basically asked, how would one square that statement with support for enhanced interrogation, considering your statement hews very closely to one of the principal arguments against it; or as HR helpfully pointed out in #39, to be for one but against the other would not be a consistent standard.
Your response was to point out:
As I explained to you, this response does not address the fundamental question but is rather an attempt at splitting hairs.
The most common argument for EIT, that the ends justify the means, is also beside the point in this debate, since that line of reasoning implicitly cedes the moral high ground you staked and which I questioned. As I see it, the only response is to claim that enhanced interrogation is in fact not torture and does not run counter to American principles.
Ah, what an interesting debate it could have been.
Finally, as promised, an answer to your question:
.
I actually agree with you on the ultimate demise of Gadaffi being a black eye for Libya. I also believe enhanced interrogation has been a black eye for the US and has eroded some of our moral standing in the world. A line was crossed, a perception of what America stands for was changed, and that ground will be hard to reclaim. That’s just my opinion of course.
It’s been a pleasure, Mata. We should have more of these debates about how we disagree about how to have debates at some time in the future, but hopefully not too soon.
Lawdy, that’s it? Seriously? Truly, Tom, that was pathetic.
First of all, I’m not sure why you think anyone needs a “recap” with your selective editorial narrative. The entire conversation is above via a simple scroll for anyone to read. Additionally, I provided links on the other thread where you ran, in order to drive you back here.
Are you under the assumption that people here are unable to read on their own, and need to be led around by the nose by you, in order to see the light and comprehend the continuum of events? And I especially love how you left out the hyped up heinous abuse of KSM you used in your “basically asked” question… like that wouldn’t give us a heads up to who you are.
And after pushing you for some clarity after your huffy departure, filled with indignant accusations and hurled false charges about me dodging your questions, with more than a few personal (not the “assigned” group type) insults thrown in, this is all you come up with?
Boyo… was Aye spot on with nailing jello….
Let’s get this straight. I answered your question. Don’t ask me for a review on the apple pie when I just had the chicken piccata. EITs and interrogations for intel… whether for law enforcment or our intel service personnel… are not the same as vigilante mob executions.
Apparently you didn’t like that answer.. or was that your vague third party persona, who doesn’t give opinions, who didn’t like it? Instead you erroneously evoke Hard Right’s analogy, but attempt to reverse it. HR’s observation was that many condone the vigilantism, and then whine about the EITs… which makes no sense. Not because they are the equivalent, but because they are so very different.
You, because you see no difference between the two, considered the two interchangeable… and therefore reversible.
You flew out of here, seeking harbor in another thread on the same subject in a drama queen huff… saying I falsely accused you of believing what, apparently, you do believe after all. Needless to say, your theatrics over what was accurate were quite amusing and now, in retrospect, quite embarrassing for you.
What’s particularly sad and ineffective is your weak sense of self and lack of passion about your own convictions, Tom. This makes you a lack luster person with whom to debate since you’re nothing but a moving target of platitudes, followed by victimization when met with dissent.
It’s like dancing with a dishrag.
When given the chance to speak clearly on whether or not you thought our US military and intel personnel were the equivalent to the Libyan vigilante thugs, you hid behind more vagaries… what “the world” perceives as a black eye of the US because of EITs and mumble some jumbo about ends and means. (gee.. where does that political crap come from, I wonder… LOL)
I didn’t ask about the world perceptions. Never was the issue. The world (if you feel omnipotent enough to speak for the entire world) thinking that both Libya and the US have a “black eye” wasn’t the question. The question was do you believe that American EITs are equal to revenge and vigilantism.
And you think I demonstrate “unwillingness or inability to respond to a straight forward question”? Well ain’t that a hoot.
I’d like to echo your shallow “it’s been a pleasure” bit, Tom. Quite frankly, I’m not sure I can scrape the surface of my own strength of convictions to muster up a thin enough layer of BS to say the same. But I have to say, a hopefully not too soon” debate with you isn’t much of anything to either miss, or look forward to. I’d hardly know you were gone. If you can’t definitively state who you are and what you believe, one might as well have a passive moderator to mindlessly parrot the opposition talking points to keep a discussion going. Useless.
Cyber conversation with those who always present a facade in the “third party” attitude, and then play victim and run when met with dissent, don’t strike me as challenging. Just a waste of bandwidth. Not to mention someone who must be seriously uncomfortable with who he is when dealing with others.
What a shocker, Mata. You tried to put more words in my mouth and expect me to defend something I never said. Yet once again, after another barrage of indignation and personal attack, you still duck the pertinent question, i.e., whether enhanced interrogation is consistent with American principles. That tells me you are quite aware of your hypocrisy and will do everything you can to not have to defend it. I also get that you’re a know-it-all who has no intellectual curiosity -i.e., all you care about is ‘winning’ your little tussles, so you move from bullying, to personal attack, onto misrepresenting the other side’s arguments, to finally these filibuster posts with never ending paragraphs essentially saying nothing. But when given multiple chances to respond to a simple question… zilch. But you are good at danging a hook, because I couldn’t resists responding to the above. I have to say, you’ve reached a sadly predictable new low with this concept that I think our intel and military are murderous thugs. Is that in your little Right Wing fanatic handbook? “When in doubt, accuse Lib/Prog of being against our troops to get the peanut gallery in an uproar”. Sad, really. For the record, it’s the Bush Administration that deserves any blame for enhanced interrogation, not people simply doing their jobs. You really a piece of work and really quite pathological in your intellectual dishonesty