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I guess it will be okay to add another bird on the poop deck… the UN.
And it could be I’m missing news bytes, but I’m hearing crickets from Germany, France, UK etal on this. Since they were quick to condemn Iran, could it be their silence constitutes they will embrace the replacement leadership/government, providng they don’t get reversed by the thuggery of the Marxist/leftist grand ol’ Americas party of Chavez/Obama/Castro?
BTW… news bulletin from Honduras.com The UN has now voted to support reinstatement of Zelaya… never hearing any side by the whiny, exiled President’s.
UN Votes to Reinstate Exiled Former President
June 30, 2009
The United Nations in an emergency session voted today to support the reinstatement of the ex-President of Honduras, and called the change of power a “coup”, after listening to the former President speak. The UN did not hear any comments from the Court of Justice of Honduras, the Legislator, nor the Honduran Congress.
The current President of Honduras has emphasized the ex-President will be arrested if he is to return to the Country, according to an order of the Court of Honduras. The judicial system has shown over the years in history that it can fight for the Honduran Constitution and remove the President from office if he is not complying with the law. The same would hold true in the United States of America, therefore the Judicial System should have a voice in front of the UN, the OAS, and all international organizations who believe they have a say in the continuing democracy of Honduras. The recent actions in Honduras have been backed by the Supreme Court of Justice of Honduras.
jsagf
14 years ago
Obummer likes the Mullahs, sultans, Allah dictators. Ask him, he will say yeah baby! He even bows to Saudi royalty.
Why does Obama hate people that just want to live in freedom and in a democracy? It’s not just Honduras or Iran. This was the guy that wanted to abandon Iraq to terrorists and fought against the surge every step of the way. And hey, notice how our relationship with Israel has taken a hit lately. What could be the cause? Oh, gee, I wonder!
I don’t think there’s ever been a president so opposed to sticking up for those faced with oppression and brutality than the big-earred buffoon. Say what you will about FDR, Truman or JFK (I mention them not because of ideology, but because I often see liberals champion them so often), as they certainly made mistakes during their terms, but they at least stood up to oppressors/evil when it really counted. Same for the likes of Washington, Lincoln (I still cringe thinking about deluded fools trying to Obama in this great man’s league), Reagan and W. Obama’s the kind of fool that would’ve rolled over for the likes of Hitler. “We, uh, can trust, uh, him because, uh, he told, uh, me, uh, so.”
The “crickets” Mata refers to, is the missing vociferous support for the rule of law and democracy, among the spoiled and fat EU.
All your post/links show is how utterly blind and stupid European “leadership” has become, and how sycophantic YOU are in following them. Proof of this is your own post.
Maybe you could “enlighten” us rubes as to why you and your ilk support the usurpation of constitutional law, in support of a dictatorship?
Oops…forgot to say great post! Looking forward to your next one.
Old Trooper
14 years ago
What Castro knows about Democracy can fit up a rats backside for a suppository.
The UN is just a forum for tin pot Dictators and America hating Tyrants and is worthless.
I have seen personally more excesses, waste, fraud, mismanagement and abuse in Third World Countries committed by UN personnel than I can recall so they have zero credibility with me.
Obama needs a history less or two and the chumps that voted for him need a Civics class or
comparative government course.
Try rereading MataHarley email again…and note – ‘could it be their silence’. Clearly these countries aren’t silent on the matter. I guess in your alternate reality if you don’t support your view then you must silent. Bizarre.
And when does a military coup become democratic?
Indeed which countries support and recognise this coup as being legal?
Seems there are an awful lot of countries who therefore must be ‘utterly blind and stupid’ as well as UK, France and Germany who also have criticised this coup.
And what PROOF is there that I agree with the opinions of the UK, France and Germany? Massive ASSumption on your part there. I simply let MataHarley know that there has been reaction from the countries she mentioned which a less than one minute search brings up.
Besides although EU is clearly rubbish at keep peace and order it’s own sphere of influence (Bosnia) – who cares what certain European countries think of what is happening in Honduras – surely this is in the US backyard. Clearly the US has a wonderfully rich history of making sure democracy and the will of the people trumps any nasty dictatorships in Latin and South America. Just don’t mention Pinochet;)
Gaffa, you are correct in that… with my schedule this past few weeks… I haven’t spent an nanosecond searching particulars on Euro reaction coverage on the Honduras issue. I did devote most of my time to their law, the method of removal, and the integrity of the action. All of which I consider far more important that what Brown, Merkel or Sarkozy think.
Instead, inbetween the madness (and when not tilting with the mishmash and Cary on another thread) I’ve tried to check in with my usual “all points” news site when I could…. which normally would bring up all the usual int’l media suspects. Let’s just say the the US media is not splashing headlines about Euro voices chiming in with Obama. Somewhat unusual, I guess.
And, I will say that the two links you provided are not generally in that MSM group. Interesting sites, but hardly the Telegraph, Guardian, IHT, Asian Times, Gulf News, etc. Tho I do not question their content.
And oh yes, I prefer another mega search engine over Google when I research, thank you. I do so for the method Google uses to conduct their searches.
So it’s not a bizarre “alternate reality”. Nor do I *ever* expect the media to weigh in supporting my views. I’m sure eventually, when it popped up to the top of my interest and time, I would have turned my attentions to getting the rest of the world’s perspective. But I also hoped Mike would do an update on the collective view. I guess it looks like Honduras can only depend upon citizens in various countries, as the int’l community has aligned themselves to “meddle” in their Constitutional law.
Ironic, eh? So thank you for relieving me of that specific search and digging up a few POVs… and piss on you for your ever-so-slightly snippy comments :0)
bbartlog
14 years ago
The opinion lineup on this one is quite peculiar. I follow a few lefty blogs, and *a lot* of commenters there are also sympathetic to the military and its coup. It’s not a hard case to judge from the facts on the ground. But the MSM and world leaders are in lockstep behind Zelaya. In the case of the world leaders, I can see why they would feel like they shouldn’t support any military deposition of a world leader anywhere (protecting their own divine right, lol), but the MSM is harder to explain. There’s big money involved somehow.
suek
14 years ago
>>And when does a military coup become democratic?>>
When it follows the laws set forth in the Constitution of the country?
BTW, Gaffa… INRE your comment about “when does a military coup become democratic”
As Hillary states, the State Dept has not officially declared this a “coup”… tho someone ought to tell that to the Eunuch in Chief. You see… just as the UNSC is mandated certain action if mass murders (like Sudan/Darfur) are classified as “genocide”, the US must stop financial aid to Honduras if they formally declare this a “military coup”. So to my knowledge, as of today, it’s a talking point, but not a State reality.
Saying it’s a “military coup”, when it’s actually just a legal arrest and removal of a Constitutional law usurper, helps the media and administration fool people into their POV. Yet it’s interesting that they don’t put their money where their mouths are, don’t you think?
BTW… the replacement was chosen and sworn in via their Congress… all per their Honduras law. It’s just that “meddling” is in vogue… as long as it’s not on behalf of the Iranians. Honduras is, of course, an easier country to bully.
@GaffaUK: You can hardly call it a “military coup.” More like a renunciation of the coup plot by El Presidente for life based on the model of his Venezuelan mentor.
It seems every branch of Honduran government was in on the job so you may have to stop repeating the “military coup” line.
Toothfairy
14 years ago
Gateway Pundit posted some pictures of demonstrations in Honduras that clearly show just who the Honduran people support. It’s not “I want to be dictator for life” Zelaya. The people want a democratic government and a president who follows the law and supports their constitution — not a Hugo Chavez wannabe. Zelaya’s power grab was despotic, not democratic. The Honduran people have spoken. Now the free world needs to listen.
Let’s just say the the US media is not splashing headlines about Euro voices chiming in with Obama. Somewhat unusual, I guess@
If a tree falls over in a forest and it the US media doesn’t make it headline news then does it make a sound?
And oh yes, I prefer another mega search engine over Google when I research, thank you. I do so for the method Google uses to conduct their searches.
Which search engine do you use?
I guess it looks like Honduras can only depend upon citizens in various countries, as the int’l community has aligned themselves to “meddle” in their Constitutional law.
Well the new person installed has already placed a curfew so I guess that will make it harder for any those citizens to protest.
If was a legal arrest then why use the army – and why isn’t he still under arrest and facing prosecution rather than being kicked out? Or is that perfectly legal in Honduras. I don’t think the rest of the world goes by what Hillary says or doesn’t say in regards of semantics – and I’m surprised you do.
Gaffa, knock it the f*#k off with the “tree falls” crap. You already know from my previous explanations that I don’t assume if the US media isn’t reporting it, it isn’t important. Your barking up the wrong tree here. As I pointed out, knowing what the Euro leaders were saying wasn’t high up in my priorities at the time, but it’s unusual for their opinions not to be splashed all over the MSM. Even the links you sent on were not the NYTs, Telegraph, Guardian, der Spiegel, IHT, etal… smaller news links.
Trust me, I have no problems finding what I need, if the dang thing’s not already bookmarked from years of research. Which brings me to search engines in general. I use various meta search engines, i.e. Momma, AllinOne, Northern Light, Dogpile, as well as using these search engines to find dedicated, focused specialty search engines that get you deeper into specific material. There are engines devoted to medical, legal, science, etc that yield things everyone’s favorite Google doesn’t have unless you go thru thousands of pages. Integral to any research is what search engine you use for specific topics, how much you already know about the topic for keywords, and Boolean logic.
Google’s page ranking makes that engine limited for me as a primary and sole engine. Page ranking is a hot business now, and you’ll find what shows up first in the list are those that make arrangements to have as many links as possible on other websites. (That alone should give you a clue that if you’re turning up obscure news links for Euro response, that the big boys of media aren’t linking to it…)
You’ll also find out if you search in one browser over another (i.e. IE or Firefox), you can get different results. You can also find you can do the same exact search several times and get different results.
Just like I don’t depend upon one newspaper for news, I don’t depend on one search engine who’s results are tweaked by hotlinks.
INRE Honduras: I see you edited out your “why the army” bit… guess you figured out jurisdiction and authority plays into who arrests and removes a President.
For a Honduras attorney’s perspective on the events, read this by Octavio Sanchez. Zelaya stripped himself of of the Presidency via his actions that triggered a constitutional protection. Under Honduras law, he is immediately discharged from office, and prohibited from holding any elected office for 10 years. The military removed him from the country in exile, and he will be under arrest under any attempt to return. Their laws, their enforcement of it. Works for me.
INRE the curfew you mention, it was for two days only – Sunday the 28th, and Monday the 29th – from 9pm to 6am, and is already a footnote in history. I’m quite sure the Zelaya demonstrators had no problems fitting in their protest during the remaining hours…. as it was leftist scum in the crowd of about 1500 protests who were throwing stones, smashing windows and wearing black masks who made the evening curfew necessary to begin with. Seattle’s undergone the same with the WTO protests in the past, and their looting. What is it with leftists that property destruction is part of their MO? I guess because they make everyone else pay for it all… no personal responsibility is part of their belief make up.
No clue what you’re babbling about on Hillary and semantics. The formal declaration of “coup” has repercussions in diplomatic relations and financial assistance just as “genocide” requires more action than lip service from the UN. This is not a commentary on Hillary’s performance as SOS, but a statement of fact.
The US is trying to punish Honduras financially in other ways… i.e. the embassy deferring non-essential travel “until further notice”, and telling American residents in Honduras to restrict their travel to one day only… July 2nd. The US State Dept has not issued any travel alerts warnings tho. Cruise ships are still docking at Roatan. Life goes on because the majority of Hondurans are quite fine with legal removal of the Constitutional usurper and their Constitutional process… as it should be.
Hard Right
14 years ago
Mike, if they admit it wasn’t a coup then they would have to admit that they were wrong to defend obama and that he is wrong too.
If obama is wrong, then he’s not the genius or champion of the little guy like he claims to be.
If obama is diminished in any way, so are they. The lefties have A LOT of personal worth and ego tied up in their messiah. That is why they react as if they have been personally criticized or attacked.
Therefore they will brainwash themselves into believing it was a coup, illegal, that they are the true supporters of democracy and justice, and as a result morally superior to those disagree with them.
HR, the ugly truth is it’s not just Obama and the leftist Latino dictators. It’s Europe, the UN… virtually every free world leader as well.
This is just mind blowing… just a few measly citizens in various countries “get it” on upholding Honduras Constitutional law, while the world leadership attempts to “meddle” and reinstate a leftist Constitutional usurper. I’d say O’syndrome has infected the world and madness has ensued.
Shame – normally you are quite civil – the pissing & f**k off comments are beneath you. The falling tree was a joke – not so sure why that seems to irritate you that much. However thanks for the useful info on search engines. As for “why the army” – that’s still there. The only edit I did was to correct some of the quote boxes. As for the Hillary bit – well plenty of people are calling this a military coup. Without the military’s support it wouldn’t of happened. Whether or not the SOS of another country calls it a coup is neither here or there in terms of whether it can be defined as a coup or not.
It doesn’t appear to me that those in charge now when through due process – however I don’t know all the ins and outs of the Honduras legal ‘justice’ system. It looks like Zelaya was trying to go against their constitution. However I wonder if it was him trying to extend the limit (which is only one term) is really behind this or not. I mean the guy was trying to get the minimum wage in – how absurd and radical is that! Constitutions are funny old things because like the US – there are plenty of amendments which happen. Zelaya was stupid in that he should of just served his term rather than upset the apple cart for no good reason.
As for meddling – so are you suggesting foreign powers don’t meddle in other countries internal affairs?
Gaffa… since you’ve repeated it in both comments #10 and #17, I had to assume it was a repeated dig. If you simply forgot you’ve been needling unnecessarily, then I forgive you and accept it as a joke by a senile parrot. LOL
And it irritates me because I had already explained my work schedule, and this issue is triaged for rare time, twice already. If I have little time inbetween stuff, it’s irritating to have to repeat myself. And BTW, good morning… you’re up early
Since your “as the army” question still stands, let me ask you this… if your PM breaks British law, and your equivalent of both the US and Honduras AG orders an arrest, do you send someone from Brighton jurisdiction to arrest and remove a PM?
Quite simply, the army is the appropriate law enforcement body in Honduras to assign the task. You read more into it than should be.
It doesn’t appear to me that those in charge now when through due process – however I don’t know all the ins and outs of the Honduras legal ‘justice’ system.
Again I must repeat myself. sigh…. For the second time – you should read Octavio Sanchez’s legal dissertation on the formalities for arresting and removing Zelaya from office and taking him to Puerto Rico. Frankly, I’ll bet on his interpretation of Honduras law over yours since he is a lawyer, and former presidential adviser and minister of culture of Honduras.
Instead you try to pronounce judgment on Zelaya’s illegal actions and refusal to respond to cease and desist orders by every power that be in Honduras based on what you believe is “just”. So you use a pundit’s interpretation of issues as what is “just”?
Only the Congress could okay a referendum. Zelaya didn’t give three sheets to the wind on that. When he couldn’t get ballots legally, he went to Venezuela and got them printed up. Would you sanction they bypass of your rule of law for Gordon Brown… even if he were asking for a chicken in every pot for grandma?
But of course, that’s not the issue Zelaya was seeking sanctions on… it was perpetual Presidential terms for power…. making what is already more illegal even more ugly. And, as a smart politician… were I seeking unmitigated power, I’d promise “tax cuts” so I’d get support for that unmitigated power. You miss the heart of Zelaya’s quest.
As for meddling – so are you suggesting foreign powers don’t meddle in other countries internal affairs?
Don’t be absurd. As far as I can tell, every leader of every country has chosen to “meddle”. However, speaking from a US point of view, we usually “meddle” on the side of countries attempting democratic steps and adherence to rule of law. Which is why it’s so offensive that Obama ignores Iran, and supports a Constitutional usurper.
Come on Mata, don’t waste time with that little sociopath. He is a clueless moron who hasn’t anything worth saying, and whose only pleasure is pushing people’s buttons. The trick is to not take him seriously, because he isn’t serious, well, a serious nuisance maybe, but that’s about it. Of course, if you want to keep wasting your time on him, that’s your business.
(see, Matta, you just have to show others what an idiot he is, and leave it at that. He’ll piss and throw feces like an angry monkey, but he can’t hit us and it’ll be fun to watch.)
NOTE – too bad we don’t have a SCOTUS that had any common sense and sufficient stones, so we could get rid of the Kenyan trailer trash dope head usurper we’re stuck with in the White House.
@Hard Right: You summarized the entire problem of holding Obama accountable in few sentences. And you are absolutely correct. They can’t admit they were wrong.
That’s why the lefties to this day try to deny that Reagan had anything to do with winning the Cold War. It would shame their blind obstruction of his every move.
They’re just as wrong here but can’t and won’t admit it.
He was detained and taken to Costa Rica. Why? Congress needed time to convene and remove him from office. With him inside the country that would have been impossible.
So if the leader is arrested – why is it ‘impossible’ for congress to convene and remove him from office? Where in the Honduras consitution does its say the army is there to uphold the law? Where in the consitution does its say that if a leader contravenes the constitution then that leader is exiled and effectively make a nationless?
And BTW, good morning… you’re up early
I’ve been living in Australia for the last year…hence the time difference.
However, speaking from a US point of view, we usually “meddle” on the side of countries attempting democratic steps and adherence to rule of law
Try this for size…
I don’t see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its own people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves
Henry Kissinger
As for Yonason – look at his words and petty insults to show what an intellectual minnow and spiteful little prat he is – ‘sociopath’, ‘clueless moron’, ‘idiot’ and ‘piss and throw feces like an angry monkey’ and yet he is so dumb that he goes against his own advice about not wasting time on me. lol. What is it with some people on here that they can’t have a civil debate – even if they politely agree to disagree – without having to start using such dull insults. Yawn….
Gaffa: So if the leader is arrested – why is it ‘impossible’ for congress to convene and remove him from office? Where in the Honduras consitution does its say the army is there to uphold the law? Where in the consitution does its say that if a leader contravenes the constitution then that leader is exiled and effectively make a nationless?
So many questions from you. I’m no Honduran attorney, but I’m pretty darn sure not every legal remedy and procedure is spelled out in detail in their Constitution. It’s not like Presidents are removed from office daily, ya know… But let’s play speculation, since that’s all we can do.
Honduras government structure is similar to the US in being a Constitutional democratic republic. Like the US, they have an executive branch, legislative and judicial. As to how those branches execute their separation of powers is a question for the Honduras legal experts and depends upon their laws and code that provide remedies and procedure. Thus the links to the Honduras attorney.
This isn’t a case where the Honduras military decided this guy wasn’t acting according to Honduras law. The Supreme Court, Congress and Council found Zelaya committed “an act that is considered unconstitutional and is considered as a crime of Treason to the Country,” and he resisted cease and desist orders multiple times. With or without the formality of a trial that may not be required in Honduras, the man is smoking gun guilty, and his actions were pronounced so by the Supreme Court there.
The Honduras Congress voted to remove (impeach?) this President for committing the crime of treason… the penalty for which is death in the US. Frankly, Zelaya ought to be thrilled with exile… Our US Congress also has the power to declare the punishment for treason in Article III(3) of the Constitution.
So is it so far fetched and “undemocratic” that the Honduras Congress does not possess similar power?
INRE the military: drawing a “what if” situation here in the US…. even that is muddy. What if the US Congress impeached/removed Obama from office, and our Congress declared the punishment for treason and Obama found guilty under our procedures. Just who has the jurisdiction to detain the removed Commander in Chief?
It’s further muddied that a sitting President cannot be tried for crimes, and that any such trial must wait until his term expires. Is it clear that an impeachment – which merely removes the official from office and then may end up in a trial – renders a sitting President eligible for immediate trial? This one has had US Constititional scholars going round and round in debate.
Needless to say, were this to happen here, there would not only be legal experts coming out of the woodwork, charging improper procedure from every avenue, there would also be violent riots in the streets… which brings me to speculate on your military/law enforcement comment.
The Supreme Electoral Tribunal and the General Attorney of State began legal actions to confiscate the poll’s material and named the Air Force Chief as depositary of the confiscated items.
The President and a mob of his followers broke the order of legality, rejected the resolution by the Judicial Power, assaulted the Air Force facilities in Tegucigalpa, where the confiscated material was being kept, misused his authority as President of Honduras, publicly expressed that he would not respect the rulings of the Judicial Power, and put forward that the Legislative Power was not representative of the People, but himself, who had been elected president of Honduras.
The Armed Forces of Honduras re established the order and legality.
The National Congress followed the constitutional process established in the Article 242, regarding the succession of the President in case of a definite absence.
I’d say if Obama and a band of ACORN types attacked a US base, that they [the military] would definitely be involved. But let’s go for the generic question, is the military the appropriate law enforcement choice to detain Zelaya? They certainly had jurisdiction in that event.
Some branches of our US military are indeed involved in law enforcement during emergency measures… i.e. the Guard during Katrina and other events that required some degree of martial law. But technically, the US Guard is under command of the Governor and requires the Commander in Chief jumping procedural hoops to usurp that State command. In this bizarre instance, the Commander in Chief would be the guy the other branches of government are trying to detain. And I have no idea if Honduras has a branch similar to the US Nat’l Guard, nor if the orders to the military came from what would be similar to our Department of Defense.
But, to me, the military is the logical branch to act as the law enforcement body to detain a President, voted by Congress to be guilty of the crime of treason. Would you suggest Honduras Congressional members go after him? Maybe the Supreme Court judges ought to go get him? Just who do you think *should* arrest/detain/exile a legally ousted President, Gaffa?
It’s a jurisdiction question. If Obama were found guilty of treason, who go gets him? Homeland Defense officials? NSA? The FBI? CIA? The local Chicago police in his neighborhood? Interesting question. But again, it’s how Honduras law is set up for detaining an elected official guilty of treason.
As far as exile as opposed to incarcerating Zelaya in a prison… Honduras law states the removed official cannot hold office for 10 years. Perhaps they have a provision for exile with the finding of treason by the Honduras Congress (again… the same power that the US Congress has).
Then there’s the possibility of emergency measures. Remember that the military had to subdue Zelaya’s mob just to get to the guy, holed up in his abode to detain/exile him. One would think that there would be emergency measure in place for crowd control while the Congress went thru the formal legal procedure, and naming an interim head of State.
When a US President is in the impeachment process, he’s still acting as the Commander in Chief of the US military. Well now, don’t that create a conflict of power? What damage could a US CIC do, controlling the military, while under investigation for treason? I shudder at the thought…
But here’s the real burning question. You certainly go to great lengths to defend a man who’s actions were found illegal by the Honduras Congress, their Supreme Court and their election Council. Instead of ceasing his illegal actions, as told many times, he grabs a mob and attacks an AF base. His own administration’s AG ordered his detainment/exile.
So tell me, why are you defending a man which virtually every branch of Honduras government has found to be committing the crime of treason?
Also per that article: “…the military was acting on the orders of the Supreme Court, the nation’s civilian attorney general concurred with its rulings and Congress validated Zelaya’s removal.
Nice job, as usual. I sometimes like to use the malicious comments to develop a theme, as well, because others might think the same nonsense that they want to spew.
“Perhaps “exile” is too good for this guy…”
More proof the Hondurans are a lot more civilized than the commies they are being criticized by, ….the guy is still alive.
I do love Dr. Sanity. She helped put some of the final pieces of the puzzle in place for me as to why the left acts they way they do.
I noticed they have a major problem facing reality and never, ever do anything for anyone other than themselves. Even acts of charity are all about them. When I saw she saw the same thing and that was all part of documented psychological issues, I knew I had theorized correctly.
It also doesn’t hurt that my brother is an almost off the charts moonbat. Makes observation that much easier.
Thanks Yon. My mother fled Castro’s regime just as the firing squads started. My father comes from a line of combat veterans.
As you can imagine they are beside themselves over his rabid leftwing beliefs. According to him, we are the traitors to America. I’m thinking about sneaking some Clozapine into his food to see if it helps return him to sanity.
I guess it will be okay to add another bird on the poop deck… the UN.
And it could be I’m missing news bytes, but I’m hearing crickets from Germany, France, UK etal on this. Since they were quick to condemn Iran, could it be their silence constitutes they will embrace the replacement leadership/government, providng they don’t get reversed by the thuggery of the Marxist/leftist grand ol’ Americas party of Chavez/Obama/Castro?
BTW… news bulletin from Honduras.com The UN has now voted to support reinstatement of Zelaya… never hearing any side by the whiny, exiled President’s.
Obummer likes the Mullahs, sultans, Allah dictators. Ask him, he will say yeah baby! He even bows to Saudi royalty.
@MataHarley
Try Google – I hear it’s quite good…
http://www.politics.co.uk/news/foreign-policy/uk-condemns-central-american-coup-$1307481.htm
https://pastel.diplomatie.gouv.fr/editorial/actual/ael2/bulletin.gb.asp?liste=20090629.gb.html&submit.x=7&submit.y=8&submit=consulter
http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1486549.php/Germany_joins_condemnation_of_Honduras_coup_
WHO’S SIDE IS O’BUNKO ON?
You have to ask?
Why does Obama hate people that just want to live in freedom and in a democracy? It’s not just Honduras or Iran. This was the guy that wanted to abandon Iraq to terrorists and fought against the surge every step of the way. And hey, notice how our relationship with Israel has taken a hit lately. What could be the cause? Oh, gee, I wonder!
I don’t think there’s ever been a president so opposed to sticking up for those faced with oppression and brutality than the big-earred buffoon. Say what you will about FDR, Truman or JFK (I mention them not because of ideology, but because I often see liberals champion them so often), as they certainly made mistakes during their terms, but they at least stood up to oppressors/evil when it really counted. Same for the likes of Washington, Lincoln (I still cringe thinking about deluded fools trying to Obama in this great man’s league), Reagan and W. Obama’s the kind of fool that would’ve rolled over for the likes of Hitler. “We, uh, can trust, uh, him because, uh, he told, uh, me, uh, so.”
@ GuffaUK…
The “crickets” Mata refers to, is the missing vociferous support for the rule of law and democracy, among the spoiled and fat EU.
All your post/links show is how utterly blind and stupid European “leadership” has become, and how sycophantic YOU are in following them. Proof of this is your own post.
Maybe you could “enlighten” us rubes as to why you and your ilk support the usurpation of constitutional law, in support of a dictatorship?
Oops…forgot to say great post! Looking forward to your next one.
What Castro knows about Democracy can fit up a rats backside for a suppository.
The UN is just a forum for tin pot Dictators and America hating Tyrants and is worthless.
I have seen personally more excesses, waste, fraud, mismanagement and abuse in Third World Countries committed by UN personnel than I can recall so they have zero credibility with me.
Obama needs a history less or two and the chumps that voted for him need a Civics class or
comparative government course.
Good Night, It’s Been A Great Ride.
@Patvann
Try rereading MataHarley email again…and note – ‘could it be their silence’. Clearly these countries aren’t silent on the matter. I guess in your alternate reality if you don’t support your view then you must silent. Bizarre.
And when does a military coup become democratic?
Indeed which countries support and recognise this coup as being legal?
Seems there are an awful lot of countries who therefore must be ‘utterly blind and stupid’ as well as UK, France and Germany who also have criticised this coup.
And what PROOF is there that I agree with the opinions of the UK, France and Germany? Massive ASSumption on your part there. I simply let MataHarley know that there has been reaction from the countries she mentioned which a less than one minute search brings up.
Besides although EU is clearly rubbish at keep peace and order it’s own sphere of influence (Bosnia) – who cares what certain European countries think of what is happening in Honduras – surely this is in the US backyard. Clearly the US has a wonderfully rich history of making sure democracy and the will of the people trumps any nasty dictatorships in Latin and South America. Just don’t mention Pinochet;)
Gaffa, you are correct in that… with my schedule this past few weeks… I haven’t spent an nanosecond searching particulars on Euro reaction coverage on the Honduras issue. I did devote most of my time to their law, the method of removal, and the integrity of the action. All of which I consider far more important that what Brown, Merkel or Sarkozy think.
Instead, inbetween the madness (and when not tilting with the mishmash and Cary on another thread) I’ve tried to check in with my usual “all points” news site when I could…. which normally would bring up all the usual int’l media suspects. Let’s just say the the US media is not splashing headlines about Euro voices chiming in with Obama. Somewhat unusual, I guess.
And, I will say that the two links you provided are not generally in that MSM group. Interesting sites, but hardly the Telegraph, Guardian, IHT, Asian Times, Gulf News, etc. Tho I do not question their content.
And oh yes, I prefer another mega search engine over Google when I research, thank you. I do so for the method Google uses to conduct their searches.
So it’s not a bizarre “alternate reality”. Nor do I *ever* expect the media to weigh in supporting my views. I’m sure eventually, when it popped up to the top of my interest and time, I would have turned my attentions to getting the rest of the world’s perspective. But I also hoped Mike would do an update on the collective view. I guess it looks like Honduras can only depend upon citizens in various countries, as the int’l community has aligned themselves to “meddle” in their Constitutional law.
Ironic, eh? So thank you for relieving me of that specific search and digging up a few POVs… and piss on you for your ever-so-slightly snippy comments :0)
The opinion lineup on this one is quite peculiar. I follow a few lefty blogs, and *a lot* of commenters there are also sympathetic to the military and its coup. It’s not a hard case to judge from the facts on the ground. But the MSM and world leaders are in lockstep behind Zelaya. In the case of the world leaders, I can see why they would feel like they shouldn’t support any military deposition of a world leader anywhere (protecting their own divine right, lol), but the MSM is harder to explain. There’s big money involved somehow.
>>And when does a military coup become democratic?>>
When it follows the laws set forth in the Constitution of the country?
BTW, Gaffa… INRE your comment about “when does a military coup become democratic”
As Hillary states, the State Dept has not officially declared this a “coup”… tho someone ought to tell that to the Eunuch in Chief. You see… just as the UNSC is mandated certain action if mass murders (like Sudan/Darfur) are classified as “genocide”, the US must stop financial aid to Honduras if they formally declare this a “military coup”. So to my knowledge, as of today, it’s a talking point, but not a State reality.
Saying it’s a “military coup”, when it’s actually just a legal arrest and removal of a Constitutional law usurper, helps the media and administration fool people into their POV. Yet it’s interesting that they don’t put their money where their mouths are, don’t you think?
BTW… the replacement was chosen and sworn in via their Congress… all per their Honduras law. It’s just that “meddling” is in vogue… as long as it’s not on behalf of the Iranians. Honduras is, of course, an easier country to bully.
@GaffaUK: You can hardly call it a “military coup.” More like a renunciation of the coup plot by El Presidente for life based on the model of his Venezuelan mentor.
It seems every branch of Honduran government was in on the job so you may have to stop repeating the “military coup” line.
Gateway Pundit posted some pictures of demonstrations in Honduras that clearly show just who the Honduran people support. It’s not “I want to be dictator for life” Zelaya. The people want a democratic government and a president who follows the law and supports their constitution — not a Hugo Chavez wannabe. Zelaya’s power grab was despotic, not democratic. The Honduran people have spoken. Now the free world needs to listen.
@MataHarley
If a tree falls over in a forest and it the US media doesn’t make it headline news then does it make a sound?
Which search engine do you use?
Well the new person installed has already placed a curfew so I guess that will make it harder for any those citizens to protest.
If was a legal arrest then why use the army – and why isn’t he still under arrest and facing prosecution rather than being kicked out? Or is that perfectly legal in Honduras. I don’t think the rest of the world goes by what Hillary says or doesn’t say in regards of semantics – and I’m surprised you do.
Gaffa, knock it the f*#k off with the “tree falls” crap. You already know from my previous explanations that I don’t assume if the US media isn’t reporting it, it isn’t important. Your barking up the wrong tree here. As I pointed out, knowing what the Euro leaders were saying wasn’t high up in my priorities at the time, but it’s unusual for their opinions not to be splashed all over the MSM. Even the links you sent on were not the NYTs, Telegraph, Guardian, der Spiegel, IHT, etal… smaller news links.
Trust me, I have no problems finding what I need, if the dang thing’s not already bookmarked from years of research. Which brings me to search engines in general. I use various meta search engines, i.e. Momma, AllinOne, Northern Light, Dogpile, as well as using these search engines to find dedicated, focused specialty search engines that get you deeper into specific material. There are engines devoted to medical, legal, science, etc that yield things everyone’s favorite Google doesn’t have unless you go thru thousands of pages. Integral to any research is what search engine you use for specific topics, how much you already know about the topic for keywords, and Boolean logic.
Google’s page ranking makes that engine limited for me as a primary and sole engine. Page ranking is a hot business now, and you’ll find what shows up first in the list are those that make arrangements to have as many links as possible on other websites. (That alone should give you a clue that if you’re turning up obscure news links for Euro response, that the big boys of media aren’t linking to it…)
You’ll also find out if you search in one browser over another (i.e. IE or Firefox), you can get different results. You can also find you can do the same exact search several times and get different results.
Just like I don’t depend upon one newspaper for news, I don’t depend on one search engine who’s results are tweaked by hotlinks.
INRE Honduras: I see you edited out your “why the army” bit… guess you figured out jurisdiction and authority plays into who arrests and removes a President.
For a Honduras attorney’s perspective on the events, read this by Octavio Sanchez. Zelaya stripped himself of of the Presidency via his actions that triggered a constitutional protection. Under Honduras law, he is immediately discharged from office, and prohibited from holding any elected office for 10 years. The military removed him from the country in exile, and he will be under arrest under any attempt to return. Their laws, their enforcement of it. Works for me.
INRE the curfew you mention, it was for two days only – Sunday the 28th, and Monday the 29th – from 9pm to 6am, and is already a footnote in history. I’m quite sure the Zelaya demonstrators had no problems fitting in their protest during the remaining hours…. as it was leftist scum in the crowd of about 1500 protests who were throwing stones, smashing windows and wearing black masks who made the evening curfew necessary to begin with. Seattle’s undergone the same with the WTO protests in the past, and their looting. What is it with leftists that property destruction is part of their MO? I guess because they make everyone else pay for it all… no personal responsibility is part of their belief make up.
No clue what you’re babbling about on Hillary and semantics. The formal declaration of “coup” has repercussions in diplomatic relations and financial assistance just as “genocide” requires more action than lip service from the UN. This is not a commentary on Hillary’s performance as SOS, but a statement of fact.
The US is trying to punish Honduras financially in other ways… i.e. the embassy deferring non-essential travel “until further notice”, and telling American residents in Honduras to restrict their travel to one day only… July 2nd. The US State Dept has not issued any travel alerts warnings tho. Cruise ships are still docking at Roatan. Life goes on because the majority of Hondurans are quite fine with legal removal of the Constitutional usurper and their Constitutional process… as it should be.
Mike, if they admit it wasn’t a coup then they would have to admit that they were wrong to defend obama and that he is wrong too.
If obama is wrong, then he’s not the genius or champion of the little guy like he claims to be.
If obama is diminished in any way, so are they. The lefties have A LOT of personal worth and ego tied up in their messiah. That is why they react as if they have been personally criticized or attacked.
Therefore they will brainwash themselves into believing it was a coup, illegal, that they are the true supporters of democracy and justice, and as a result morally superior to those disagree with them.
HR, the ugly truth is it’s not just Obama and the leftist Latino dictators. It’s Europe, the UN… virtually every free world leader as well.
This is just mind blowing… just a few measly citizens in various countries “get it” on upholding Honduras Constitutional law, while the world leadership attempts to “meddle” and reinstate a leftist Constitutional usurper. I’d say O’syndrome has infected the world and madness has ensued.
@MataHarley
Shame – normally you are quite civil – the pissing & f**k off comments are beneath you. The falling tree was a joke – not so sure why that seems to irritate you that much. However thanks for the useful info on search engines. As for “why the army” – that’s still there. The only edit I did was to correct some of the quote boxes. As for the Hillary bit – well plenty of people are calling this a military coup. Without the military’s support it wouldn’t of happened. Whether or not the SOS of another country calls it a coup is neither here or there in terms of whether it can be defined as a coup or not.
It doesn’t appear to me that those in charge now when through due process – however I don’t know all the ins and outs of the Honduras legal ‘justice’ system. It looks like Zelaya was trying to go against their constitution. However I wonder if it was him trying to extend the limit (which is only one term) is really behind this or not. I mean the guy was trying to get the minimum wage in – how absurd and radical is that! Constitutions are funny old things because like the US – there are plenty of amendments which happen. Zelaya was stupid in that he should of just served his term rather than upset the apple cart for no good reason.
As for meddling – so are you suggesting foreign powers don’t meddle in other countries internal affairs?
A coup in Iran wouldn’t be out of the question either. Both the U.S. and Iran have tried their hands at it.
Gaffa… since you’ve repeated it in both comments #10 and #17, I had to assume it was a repeated dig. If you simply forgot you’ve been needling unnecessarily, then I forgive you and accept it as a joke by a senile parrot. LOL
And it irritates me because I had already explained my work schedule, and this issue is triaged for rare time, twice already. If I have little time inbetween stuff, it’s irritating to have to repeat myself. And BTW, good morning… you’re up early
Since your “as the army” question still stands, let me ask you this… if your PM breaks British law, and your equivalent of both the US and Honduras AG orders an arrest, do you send someone from Brighton jurisdiction to arrest and remove a PM?
Quite simply, the army is the appropriate law enforcement body in Honduras to assign the task. You read more into it than should be.
Again I must repeat myself. sigh…. For the second time – you should read Octavio Sanchez’s legal dissertation on the formalities for arresting and removing Zelaya from office and taking him to Puerto Rico. Frankly, I’ll bet on his interpretation of Honduras law over yours since he is a lawyer, and former presidential adviser and minister of culture of Honduras.
Instead you try to pronounce judgment on Zelaya’s illegal actions and refusal to respond to cease and desist orders by every power that be in Honduras based on what you believe is “just”. So you use a pundit’s interpretation of issues as what is “just”?
Only the Congress could okay a referendum. Zelaya didn’t give three sheets to the wind on that. When he couldn’t get ballots legally, he went to Venezuela and got them printed up. Would you sanction they bypass of your rule of law for Gordon Brown… even if he were asking for a chicken in every pot for grandma?
But of course, that’s not the issue Zelaya was seeking sanctions on… it was perpetual Presidential terms for power…. making what is already more illegal even more ugly. And, as a smart politician… were I seeking unmitigated power, I’d promise “tax cuts” so I’d get support for that unmitigated power. You miss the heart of Zelaya’s quest.
Don’t be absurd. As far as I can tell, every leader of every country has chosen to “meddle”. However, speaking from a US point of view, we usually “meddle” on the side of countries attempting democratic steps and adherence to rule of law. Which is why it’s so offensive that Obama ignores Iran, and supports a Constitutional usurper.
But then… it takes one to know one.
@MataHarley:
Come on Mata, don’t waste time with that little sociopath. He is a clueless moron who hasn’t anything worth saying, and whose only pleasure is pushing people’s buttons. The trick is to not take him seriously, because he isn’t serious, well, a serious nuisance maybe, but that’s about it. Of course, if you want to keep wasting your time on him, that’s your business.
@GaffaUK:
“And when does a military coup become democratic?”
When the military is enforcing the constitution at the unanimous command of the supreme court.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=axGENUiy9yKs
It’s called the rule of law, something you obviously have no conception of.
(see, Matta, you just have to show others what an idiot he is, and leave it at that. He’ll piss and throw feces like an angry monkey, but he can’t hit us and it’ll be fun to watch.)
NOTE – too bad we don’t have a SCOTUS that had any common sense and sufficient stones, so we could get rid of the Kenyan trailer trash dope head usurper we’re stuck with in the White House.
@Hard Right: You summarized the entire problem of holding Obama accountable in few sentences. And you are absolutely correct. They can’t admit they were wrong.
That’s why the lefties to this day try to deny that Reagan had anything to do with winning the Cold War. It would shame their blind obstruction of his every move.
They’re just as wrong here but can’t and won’t admit it.
@MataHarley
Reading the link you sent I noticed this…
So if the leader is arrested – why is it ‘impossible’ for congress to convene and remove him from office? Where in the Honduras consitution does its say the army is there to uphold the law? Where in the consitution does its say that if a leader contravenes the constitution then that leader is exiled and effectively make a nationless?
I’ve been living in Australia for the last year…hence the time difference.
Try this for size…
Henry Kissinger
As for Yonason – look at his words and petty insults to show what an intellectual minnow and spiteful little prat he is – ‘sociopath’, ‘clueless moron’, ‘idiot’ and ‘piss and throw feces like an angry monkey’ and yet he is so dumb that he goes against his own advice about not wasting time on me. lol. What is it with some people on here that they can’t have a civil debate – even if they politely agree to disagree – without having to start using such dull insults. Yawn….
So many questions from you. I’m no Honduran attorney, but I’m pretty darn sure not every legal remedy and procedure is spelled out in detail in their Constitution. It’s not like Presidents are removed from office daily, ya know… But let’s play speculation, since that’s all we can do.
Honduras government structure is similar to the US in being a Constitutional democratic republic. Like the US, they have an executive branch, legislative and judicial. As to how those branches execute their separation of powers is a question for the Honduras legal experts and depends upon their laws and code that provide remedies and procedure. Thus the links to the Honduras attorney.
This isn’t a case where the Honduras military decided this guy wasn’t acting according to Honduras law. The Supreme Court, Congress and Council found Zelaya committed “an act that is considered unconstitutional and is considered as a crime of Treason to the Country,” and he resisted cease and desist orders multiple times. With or without the formality of a trial that may not be required in Honduras, the man is smoking gun guilty, and his actions were pronounced so by the Supreme Court there.
The Honduras Congress voted to remove (impeach?) this President for committing the crime of treason… the penalty for which is death in the US. Frankly, Zelaya ought to be thrilled with exile… Our US Congress also has the power to declare the punishment for treason in Article III(3) of the Constitution.
So is it so far fetched and “undemocratic” that the Honduras Congress does not possess similar power?
INRE the military: drawing a “what if” situation here in the US…. even that is muddy. What if the US Congress impeached/removed Obama from office, and our Congress declared the punishment for treason and Obama found guilty under our procedures. Just who has the jurisdiction to detain the removed Commander in Chief?
It’s further muddied that a sitting President cannot be tried for crimes, and that any such trial must wait until his term expires. Is it clear that an impeachment – which merely removes the official from office and then may end up in a trial – renders a sitting President eligible for immediate trial? This one has had US Constititional scholars going round and round in debate.
Needless to say, were this to happen here, there would not only be legal experts coming out of the woodwork, charging improper procedure from every avenue, there would also be violent riots in the streets… which brings me to speculate on your military/law enforcement comment.
First, according to the chonology of events in the ousting Zelaya and a mob attempted to breach security at a Honduras AF facility.
I’d say if Obama and a band of ACORN types attacked a US base, that they [the military] would definitely be involved. But let’s go for the generic question, is the military the appropriate law enforcement choice to detain Zelaya? They certainly had jurisdiction in that event.
Some branches of our US military are indeed involved in law enforcement during emergency measures… i.e. the Guard during Katrina and other events that required some degree of martial law. But technically, the US Guard is under command of the Governor and requires the Commander in Chief jumping procedural hoops to usurp that State command. In this bizarre instance, the Commander in Chief would be the guy the other branches of government are trying to detain. And I have no idea if Honduras has a branch similar to the US Nat’l Guard, nor if the orders to the military came from what would be similar to our Department of Defense.
But, to me, the military is the logical branch to act as the law enforcement body to detain a President, voted by Congress to be guilty of the crime of treason. Would you suggest Honduras Congressional members go after him? Maybe the Supreme Court judges ought to go get him? Just who do you think *should* arrest/detain/exile a legally ousted President, Gaffa?
It’s a jurisdiction question. If Obama were found guilty of treason, who go gets him? Homeland Defense officials? NSA? The FBI? CIA? The local Chicago police in his neighborhood? Interesting question. But again, it’s how Honduras law is set up for detaining an elected official guilty of treason.
As far as exile as opposed to incarcerating Zelaya in a prison… Honduras law states the removed official cannot hold office for 10 years. Perhaps they have a provision for exile with the finding of treason by the Honduras Congress (again… the same power that the US Congress has).
Then there’s the possibility of emergency measures. Remember that the military had to subdue Zelaya’s mob just to get to the guy, holed up in his abode to detain/exile him. One would think that there would be emergency measure in place for crowd control while the Congress went thru the formal legal procedure, and naming an interim head of State.
When a US President is in the impeachment process, he’s still acting as the Commander in Chief of the US military. Well now, don’t that create a conflict of power? What damage could a US CIC do, controlling the military, while under investigation for treason? I shudder at the thought…
But here’s the real burning question. You certainly go to great lengths to defend a man who’s actions were found illegal by the Honduras Congress, their Supreme Court and their election Council. Instead of ceasing his illegal actions, as told many times, he grabs a mob and attacks an AF base. His own administration’s AG ordered his detainment/exile.
So tell me, why are you defending a man which virtually every branch of Honduras government has found to be committing the crime of treason?
BTW, Gaffa… on that mob Zelaya led on the AF base to nab the illegal ballots… turns out in that mob was “…. armed thugs supplied by Chavez and Nicaraguan Sandinista leader Daniel Ortega.”
Also per that article: “…the military was acting on the orders of the Supreme Court, the nation’s civilian attorney general concurred with its rulings and Congress validated Zelaya’s removal.
Perhaps “exile” is too good for this guy…
@MataHarley:
Nice job, as usual. I sometimes like to use the malicious comments to develop a theme, as well, because others might think the same nonsense that they want to spew.
“Perhaps “exile” is too good for this guy…”
More proof the Hondurans are a lot more civilized than the commies they are being criticized by, ….the guy is still alive.
As for Gaffa, he’s up to his usual tricks…
…still a narcissistic and dimly lit bulb blaming others for his lack of wattage.
OH, YOU’RE GONNA LOVE THIS!
http://drsanity.blogspot.com/2009/07/it-can-happen-here.html
I do love Dr. Sanity. She helped put some of the final pieces of the puzzle in place for me as to why the left acts they way they do.
I noticed they have a major problem facing reality and never, ever do anything for anyone other than themselves. Even acts of charity are all about them. When I saw she saw the same thing and that was all part of documented psychological issues, I knew I had theorized correctly.
It also doesn’t hurt that my brother is an almost off the charts moonbat. Makes observation that much easier.
@Hard Right:
My sympathies wrt your brothere.
Thanks Yon. My mother fled Castro’s regime just as the firing squads started. My father comes from a line of combat veterans.
As you can imagine they are beside themselves over his rabid leftwing beliefs. According to him, we are the traitors to America. I’m thinking about sneaking some Clozapine into his food to see if it helps return him to sanity.