It’s been 20 years since Maxine Waters coined (or at least popularized) the phrase “No Justice No Peace”. The time was after the LA Riots in 1992 when the freshman Congresswoman from Los Angeles was defending looters as simply “women who wanted shoes for their children and bread”. Of the violence that eventually claimed the lives of 53 people, Waters said: “The anger that you see expressed out there in Los Angeles, in my district this evening, is a righteous anger, and it’s difficult for me to say to the people, ‘Don’t be angry.’” She even went on use the threat of further violence around the country to try and extort action of some sort out of the White House. “Many other cities could go the way that Los Angeles went last night unless the president is willing to step in and take some strong action in terms of letting people know that he cares about this issue.” The White House listened and indeed a new trial was brought about, double jeopardy be damned. This time two of the officers were convicted. Finally some justice! For those Constitutional sticklers out there… The argument was that double jeopardy didn’t really apply as the four were charged with civil rights violations the second time rather than assault and excessive force, so, no problem at all.
So now here we are, two decades later and again race and crime intersect to put American cities on edge. “Justice for Trayvon” has been the ubiquitous call for much of the last year. This is easily one of the most high profile – and consequently political – trials in decades. The original prosecutor declined to press charges, believing there was not sufficient evidence for conviction. Enter race pimps Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson and judicial frivolity ensued.
While one’s heart has to go out to the parents of Trayvon as their grief and sadness is very real and they have comported themselves with dignity in the most trying circumstances a parent will likely ever face, the “Justice for Trayvon” signs across the country have little to do with what went on that fateful night last year or what went on in that Sanford courtroom over the last month.
But then that doesn’t really matter because in America of 2013 the only thing that does matter is satiating the demands of raucous mobs or favored demographic groups. Just on cue, now that the verdict is in the demands for federal civil rights charges have already started. Prior to the verdict, as the Miami and Sanford police departments prepared to deal with the consequences of a potential not guilty verdict, one couldn’t help but wonder how we had arrived here in the first place.
I remember watching the OJ trial and verdict as it was read aloud. To say I was dumbfounded is an understatement. More stupefying however was the scene from a college student union filled with black students who erupted into joyous pandemonium when the verdict was read. How was it even possible that anyone could cheer a ruthless murderer getting off, just because of his skin color?
One has to wonder how did race affinity ever come to replace common sense, or self preservation among so many people? The perfect example of the latter is the movement in New York City to ban “Stop and Frisk”. Stop and Frisk has been a tremendous success in helping to drive down and keep down crime rates in crime ridden neighborhoods of the city. Nonetheless, many blacks have objected to the policy because blacks are disproportionately stopped. Perhaps, but those neighborhoods have a disproportionate number of blacks and black lives are disproportionately saved as well. And the neighborhoods in which many of those black citizens live are safer than they might be without Stop and Frisk. Safer neighborhoods help with jobs, schools and quality of life. But let’s get rid of it, regardless of the lives saved or improved.
Just as knee jerk white racism a half a century ago was irrational and ignorant, so too is the knee jerk black racism of today. The difference is, the black racism of today is part of the liberal & media fiction that the state of black America is the result of white racism. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Blacks may indeed be victims, but they are largely the victims of other blacks, not whites. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics points out – via Walter Williams – that between 1976 and 2011 279,000 blacks were murdered in the United States, 94%, or 262,000 of them, by fellow blacks. That compares to a 3,446 blacks being lynched by whites in the 86 years between 1882 and 1968!
This irrational focus on the relatively insignificant (not to be confused with nonexistent) white racism at the expense of a focus on the far greater danger to members of the black community, the black predators preying on them, is an extraordinarily expensive mistake. By focusing on the mirage of widespread white racism, many blacks cease to address the dangers and issues within their own communities, with devastating consequences. It has led to over a quarter of a million dead young black men over the last four decades. Perhaps even more damaging more is the fact that tens of millions of black Americans live in poverty, 45% of black teens cannot find a job and over 75% of black children are born out of wedlock.
If the so called black leaders of today were really concerned with the state of black America, and young men like Trayvon while they are still alive, they would put down their “No Justice No Peace” posters and turn their focus on saving black America from itself. Stop supporting murders like OJ Simpson and Mumia Abu-Jamal and start honoring men like Herman Cain, Dr. Ben Carson, McDonalds CEO Donald Thompson, American Express CEO Ken Chenault and US Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, all of whom chose to build successful lives for themselves rather than bleat about the oppressive nature of a majority white society.
Instead of clamoring for never ending government programs, special dispensation in jobs and college admissions or seeing every crime or political issue through race tinted glasses, they should instead focus on reducing unwed and teen pregnancies, demanding quality education for their children and seeking relief from government regulations in order to make black communities compelling places for businesses to invest.
Don’t hold your breath however, because leadership in solving real problems is much harder work than just picking up the racism flag and waving it about so that people pay attention to you and call you a “black leader”. The civil rights movement helped destroy the scourge of white racism that had constrained the lives of blacks in America for centuries. One wonders what it will take, or how many more dead young black men it will take to remove the shackles of black racism that keep so many black Americans from enjoying the fruits of liberty that that people like Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Rosa Parks and Medgar Evers fought so hard to give them access to?
See author page
@Petercat:
I haven’t always been a good man, I’m now just trying to counteract what I once was.
I know the feeling well. Bravo to you.
@Tom: There is no doubt institutional issues are also involved here. I would like to pose a question to you that was posed to me by a Mexican I used to work with (I asked this to someone else here once before but can’t remember who). How is that someone can come here from Mexico, hardly being able to speak the language, and within a few months have a half way decent job and a place to live that they pay for and there are people who have lived in this country their entire lives who can speak the language and yet they claim they have never been able to find a job and have therefore, never worked?
that’s what we all do,
that is learn how to get up after falling, some cannot get up,and become the problem of the society
waiting for a handout to pick them up.
I think you have the WISDOM,
@another vet:
Yes they will try to find other avenues for profit. Theft and robbery and murder come to mind. If the end of alcohol prohibition is any guide.
But look at what you have in prohibition: a willing buyer and a willing seller. The only way to get inside that is secret police. A common feature of police states. OTOH with the other crimes I mention there is a victim. Some one who will complain or a body. Those kinds of crimes are easier to solve.
But look at how odd your conception is. You are worried about the profit of criminals. Do you see how distorted the whole thing has become? “If we don’t insure criminal profits the criminals will turn on us.” The criminals now own you. “Fear will keep the other star systems in line.” Evidently.
@another vet:
Immigrants generally do better because they know what they have to go back to. In their bones. Natives lack that advantage.
@another vet:
Well, first I would ask you if you’re talking about the kind of jobs that don’t pay minimum wage, which I assume you are. Should an American citizen work for less than minimum wage? And would a business paying non-citizens less than minimum wage really hire a citizen, who would have much more leverage to report such an illegal practice? Secondly, I would ask, are you saying we should tell certain segments of our society that, rather than aspire to graduate HS, go to college and get a good job, they should rather aspire to work in back-breaking conditions, for less than minimum wage, the kinds of jobs that only exists because an illegal workforce allows the employers to skirt labor laws? If that is the Right’s message to the US poor: close the boarder and have our domestic indigent take these jobs, why am I not hearing it articulated in those plain-spoken terms? That’s certainly not what this post is selling.
@another vet:
Another thing we have to fear from an end to prohibition: prohibition agents looking for a new line of government work. Harry Anslinger – a former alcohol prohibition agent – was the progenitor of the current drug war. Why? He needed something to do. You should read about him.
@Tom:
I work for less than the minimum wage. Why? Well I like my work for one. And I didn’t have to go through the usual rigamarole to get the job. How do they get away with it? I do piece work.
http://www.ecnmag.com/tags/Blogs/M-Simon/
@Tom:
If that is the Right’s message to the US poor: close the boarder and have our domestic indigent take these jobs, why am I not hearing it articulated in those plain-spoken terms?
It is spoken that way in a lot of places.
But not to worry. That kind of labor is being mechanized. The same thing happened to John Henry over a century ago. There will be no workers on factory floors and on the farms. Only robot maintainers. “Luke? Luke? Have you fixed those ‘droids yet?”
@Aqua:
In the UK the The Equality and Human Rights Commission have done some good work on all forms of discrimination including racism. They have developed an Equality Measurement Framework (see http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/uploaded_files/emf/briefing_note.pdf) which can be used to develop measures of perceived racism and the level of respect different groups feel they are treated with.
An example of the sort of data that is generated can be seen at http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/uploaded_files/research/1__review_of_equality_statistics_241008.pdf
This report (from 2008) measures discrimination (in all forms) including
Discrimination in employment
Unfair treatment, bullying and sexual harassment in employment
Pregnancy discrimination
Perceived discrimination in accessing services
Perception of being treated with respect when accessing services
Access to goods and services
Perception of harassment in local area
Perceptions of cohesion
Perceptions of belonging
Measuring these things is not easy – we are all individuals with individual reactions – but if we are serious about tackling racism then it requires serious effort and serious measurement.
M. Simon
yes, today they want to start at the top earnings,
while they haven’t learn nothing except indoctrination, which taught them how to protest, and report their boss to be keeping them in poverty,
you would see a big difference of appreciation if there was no welfare, they would strive to do an excellent job so to rise to a better step of the ladder,
@Tom:
Well the way to fix poverty is to set the minimum wage at $100,000 an hour. One hour’s work and you are out of poverty. At least for a while. Maybe that number is too low. How about $10 million an hour?
Bbbut you say – not very many jobs are worth that. OK. So what is the point of the minimum wage then? The point of the minimum wage is to accelerate the adoption of robots.
@Tom: If you don’t have a marketable skill or are not willing to get the education or training to get one, what type of work do you think will be available? Almost every landscaping firm I see is owned and operated by Mexicans, most likely first generation Americans assuming they are citizens. With the exception of the occasional college student, most of the workers are Mexican as well. Ditto for a lot of roofing firms. A lot of them in my area are staffed by Mexicans. First generation Americans from Poland are also heavy into that line of work as well. Most of them, especially the ones from Mexico, probably came here with less money than the average American on welfare. If they can do it, why can’t people who have been living here their whole lives? It’s called a work ethic. To me the biggest institutional force that compounds the problem is the nanny state. As long as people believe their role in society is collect a welfare check, they will never amount to anything more than being a welfare recipient. In an effort to “help” those people, we are just extending their plight.
@Tom P:
A respect commission? How much does working for them pay?
But let us look at another group I’m familiar with. Jews. Did they need a respect commission? Anti-Jew sentiment in America peaked in 1944. So how did Jews get out of the trap of lack of respect? Well they earned it. Want a good doctor? Want a good lawyer? You know the conventional wisdom.
Around 1900 the conventional wisdom among Jews was that you had to be twice as good to get the job. The Jewish response? They became 7X as good. So good that Harvard had to put in a quota to keep their numbers down.
@M. Simon: They also seem to have a work ethic. And people on this side also know that if they don’t decide to work, they will be given paychecks, have their rent and food paid for, free health care, and get a free cell phone with 250 free minutes per month with the prospects of a free computer with free internet service on the horizon.
@M. Simon:
Good point. You bring an economic point to a conversation that is all too often clouded with value judgments. When I read the lament, often voiced on the Right, Why won’t Americans take these jobs? , what’s really being communicated is These particular Americas are too lazy to take these jobs. But the reality is, that’s hogwash. if you want to pay Americans $30 an hour to pick strawberrys, you’ll get a whole lot of currently out of work Americans picking strawberrys. But that’s not economically viable, obviously. So is it an economic issue, or an issue of people being lazy? I read an interesting thing recently about the immigration debate. One sticking point in the Gang of Eight bill is visas for skilled construction workers. The Construction industry wants a lot, because they claim they can’t find skilled American labor. US Labor wants less, because they claim the Construction Industry just wants to pay less. Here what we normally think of as the Right and Left and the Right and Left’s positions on immigration reform have been flipped. This type of debate raises so many important questions that are virtually ignored when one only sees the issues through a simplistic value judgement prism of bad illegal Mexicans and lazy Americas on welfare.
@M. Simon: Perhaps I didn’t explain myself about the profits. One of the arguments FOR legalizing drugs would be to take the profits out of their operation. That would help force them out of business assuming they don’t find another way to finance it.
@another vet:
I don’t disagree with point regarding work ethic at all, but you’re ignoring my question regarding wages. Your landscaping bill will go up if Americas are hired. Are you willing to pay more? Are you willing to pay more for produce? for a house? People say they are willing to pay more for good reasons, but they aren’t. That’s why, in one generation, Walmart drove the local family grocery and hardware store out of existence in most of the country.
@Tom:
Very nice post.
I have a couple of points of contention with your premise though. My kids are upper middle class, but I can’t really call them white. Regardless, this should strike fear into every parent. I talk to my kids all the time about their future. Things as simple as Facebook can destroy your future. The Internet is forever. Drugs? If a parent hasn’t talked to their kids about drugs and underage drinking, IMHO they are not a very good parent. And I know kids are going to do what they want anyway, but you have to at least try.
As for corporate America, they aren’t completely ignorant. Most of the people in corner offices did some pretty stupid things when they were kids, (exhibit A now typing this post). They aren’t going to totally disregard a person’s skill-set because of youthful indiscretion. I hire people all the time that have done stupid things when they were young.
I think one of the biggest factors in our collective culture is that we have forgotten the basic values of our grandparents. They worked hard to provide an opportunity for their kids. We don’t do that any more. And honestly, I think our government has a lot to do with it. I think a lot of older people would make sacrifices if it ensured future generations would have things easier. But they know the government will always find a way to spend the money on something else. Why give the government something they are going to squander?
@M. Simon:
Well, at the simplest level, the point of a minimum wage is to pay a living wage. Your reductio ad absurdum works both ways. If you are offered 1 cent an hour to landscape, what is the opportunity cost of taking a job that will net you 40 cents a week? You could earn that in ten minutes pan handling outside a busy subway station.
@Tom P:
Being honest, I just scanned the report. It has way too much information for me to read in a day. Plus, I would want to see the peer review reports. Even then, I don’t think it would answer my question.
I don’t believe the vast majority of people show disrespect to any person based on race. I know there are still an ignorant minority out there (of all races) that do show disrespect based on race. That being said, if I were interviewing two people for a job, both with the right skills and education, but one with tattoos running up their neck, that is a color I do see. I would not hire someone with tattoos up their neck, on their face, or on their hands. Having tattoos that are covered is fine. Same thing with crazy piercings, studs, abnormally colored hair, etc. But color? Color is just an accessory.
@Tom: I’m talking about any jobs. You aren’t going to make $20 an hour stocking shelves or mowing lawns. If someone is being paid ‘X’ number of dollars to not work, they will not take those jobs. If they weren’t paid to not work, they would have to take those jobs. We will always have a certain amount of people who will be leaches on our society. I don’t think we should encourage it. People on welfare should either work for it or have to go through job training. It was one of the good things that Clinton signed into law but was recently discarded. Since I haven’t addressed the race crutch yet that seems to be an excuse for some in our society (not referring to you), I may as well do that now. The overwhelming majority of blacks in this country both work and pay taxes. So when I hear the excuse that people have never been able to find work because of their race, I just blow it off as an excuse. Ditto for whites. Obviously when the economy is in the dumps, there is a valid reason. But over the long haul, we spend far less time in periods of economic recession than we do in periods of growth. The current tend away from FT workers to PT workers that was addressed on the other thread is very disturbing however. That will lead to an increase in dependence on the government.
@Aqua:
Honestly, I think everything you wrote there is spot-on (aside from some of the government stuff). I think I can agree with your feelings, although we may disagree on the causes and effects of where we are today.
I want to comment further on this paragraph:
I’m going to leave aside the possible causes, and say that I think it’s not just the values that have changed (you, for example, have them). America is different now. Our grandparents could work a job, the same job perhaps, for years, and know that that would be enough to buy a nice house and raise a family. That middle class dream is fading fast. Where I live, you have to make a fair amount of money to afford a house, and a lot of people I know live in anxiety, knowing that if they lose their current job, an uncertain future awaits. That unspoken contract your grandparents had with America, work hard and you’ll thrive, I’m not sure it exists anymore, I’m not sure those jobs exist anymore. The country is polarizing economically, the middle class shrinking. On top of that, there’s a hardness, a sink or swim attitude, about it. I am a conservative person, on a personal level, in more ways than you might imagine (particularly with personal finances), but I can’t turn off that ‘bleeding heart’ thing, and that sink or swim attitude alienates me.
There is a book I’m reading now, George Packer’s The Unwinding: An Inner History of the New America that looks at the same thing you articulated above, but from admittedly a Liberal perspective. I will quote a few paragraphs from the Prologue.
M. Simon
yes, the JEWS EXCEL IN EVERYTHING, AND RESEARCH IS THEIR BEST,IN EVERY SUBJECT
THEY DECIDE TO LEARN, THEY NEVER LET GO ON IT,
that’s why they are believed when they come with the result
what ever the trade.
and they have been envy by the other cultures who thought they knew everything
and thought they could become the master of the WORLD BY KILLING THEM,
THEY ARE STILL ENVY FOR THEIR GIFTS FROM GOD,
AND WE WOULD HAVE TO INVENT THEM IF THEY DID NOT EXIST,
Aqua
we would miss all your good judgement if you did not come here to share it with us,
you give us the best of you to copy and keep in mind,
for our betterment.
Most people either forgot or never realized that, even in their grandparent’s day, there were plenty of people who wanted it all and now.
They got into debt deeply to afford their big house, car, new TV/sound systems.
MOST older people did not do that, they lived within their means.
We bought both our homes for CASH.
No mortgage!
Until there was a zero interest rate on autos we bought all our cars/trucks for CASH, too!
And we paid off our ONE credit card (no yearly fee, either) each and every month!
All around us were our peers going deep into debt because they wanted MORE.
The newest or biggest stuff.
And today you even see people on SNAP, Housing and Welfare who would not put up with a 10 year old car or an ”un-smart” cell phone.
We still only have a land line!
Can people who carry these ”keep up with the Jones’ ” attitudes EVER get ahead in more than appearances only?
No, they cannot.
But they can covet what people like us have.
Too bad they never learned what it is like to SCRIMP and SAVE.
(PS, this is why my heart does NOT bleed for them.)
@Nan G:
And here we see a perfect example of the value judgements I referred to above, as Nan compares apples to oranges and arrives at a judgmental conclusion. Being able to pay for a house today in cash isn’t feasible for most people, Nan. It’s not a function of scrimping and saving. The median house price in the Northeast (where I live) is $270K. That’s actually quite a bit lower than anything I see on the market in my particular area. Doing a rough calculation, a person would have had to “scrimp” and “save” about $10K a year for twenty years to buy a house in cash that costs that much. So you’re talking about a 40 year old who put aside $10K a year from the day he left college. The truth is the only people paying cash for a house have a lot of money, or are rolling the proceeds from another property into a new one. Most people will need a mortgage. Not everyone can get a mortgage though. Your past will catch up with you quickly if you try and get a mortgage and don’t have a sterling credit history, a good job, a good job history, low debts, and a large sum of money set aside for a down payment. There are no do-overs in America these days. So feel free to have little sympathy for others, but at least have a rational foundation for your feelings and not antiquated notions of what is affordable today and how hard work plays into the equation.
Nan G
yes and the items owned where taken good care of, they where not left to rot,
they where left to the younger generation so happy to receive it, yes the values of plastic where not there,
then came the everything to use once and trash, it blended into the minds of the PEOPLE WHO START TO TRASH EVERYTHING ALONG WITH THEIR OWN VALUES, THEIR OWN CONSTITUTION, THEIR OWN ELDERS’S TEACHING, AND THE AIR BECAME CLOUDY WITH THE FUME OF ALL THE TRASH AND THE MINDS BECAME SICK AND NEEDED DRUGS TO COPE
AND THE DRUGS MARKET WAS A GOLD MINE, IT SOLD A MULTITUDE OF QUICK FIX
FOR ANY DISCOMFORT, AND THE DRUGS MULTIPLIED, AND THE PEOPLE GOT MORE PAIN
AND DISCOMFORT, A CIRCLE NEVER ENDING,
THE FOOD CHANGE TO FIT THE WAY OF LIFE WHO DEMAND FAST AND FURIOUS,
@Tom:
I was married in 1969 and didn’t buy my first place until 1988, literally the 20 years of savings later, just as you noted.
When buying, we could have got more house than we needed and gone deep into debt, but we chose to buy a small place, using what we thought would be our down to cover the entire thing.
This year we sold that tiny place (605 square feet, no garage, air, laundry) for a nearly-as-small place in a lower cost to live state.
For the exact sale price we bought over 1200 square feet, two car parking, laundry room w/washer and dryer, central air and more, a couple of acres of green set far from any main streets). But we had to dive into the unknown to accomplish all that.
We moved to Utah and lived in a hotel for two months while finding and buying this place.
Sometimes you have to take risks.
If it is so expensive where you live now, how about a brave act?
How about moving to greener pastures?
@Tom:
How easily fooled you are. But that seems to be a malady of left wingers. Don’t bother to do diligent research to see if the claims being made are correct. As long as they sound good, and serve to further the agenda, run with them, right? And here is the money quote that you did not bother to research:
“In truth, there are more black men in the grip of the criminal-justice system—in prison, on probation, or on parole—than were in slavery then. ”
In 1860, the U.S. population was 34,000,000, about one-tenth of what it is now. The slavery population, including women and children, was 12% or 3,900,000. If you want to compare the incarceration rate of black men today to the number of slaves in 1860, you have to use a multiplier of 10. That would mean that 39,000,000 black men were in the justice system. Considering that the entire black population of the United States is somewhere around the 12% mark, the claim you cite falls painfully short.
“Over all, there are now more people under “correctional supervision” in America—more than six million—”
Never mind that number includes whites, blacks, Hispanics, Asians, and those with a Middle Eastern heritage. What is the real number of blacks under “correctional supervision?” The author doesn’t say. Doesn’t fit the agenda. But even if every one of those people were black males, it still falls painfully short of the 12% who were bound in slavery. Currently there are approximately 840,000 black males incarcerated. Of course, Obama stokes the fires of bigotry when he claimed there are more black men in prison than those who are attending college. Not true. There are roughly 1,400,000 black men in college, compared to the 840,000 that are incarcerated.
One other fact that will never be mentioned by those who try to prove that this nation is still a hot bed of white racism against the black man; most black men who are incarcerated come from cities with black mayors, black city councils, a high percentage of blacks on the police departments, black judges and juries made up of primarily blacks. One such city is St. Louis that was once the murder capital of the nation under a black mayor, a black city council with a corrupt, mostly black police department. Chicago and Detroit are also prime examples of blacks who are incarcerated by other blacks. Obviously, black Americans are racist toward black males who are law breakers.
You want to have a “conversation” (as Eric Holder puts it) about the state of the black community and race relations? Fine, let’s have that conversation. And let’s include the senseless shooting of 13 month old Antonio Santiago as he sat in his stroller by a 17 year old black male, De’Marquis Elkins and a 14 year old still unnamed. Let’s talk about what caused a 17 year old who wanted to rob the baby’s mother, to shoot her in the leg and shoot an unarmed 13 month old. Let’s talk about the black children shot to death in Chicago and Detroit by black males in their late teens.
You have come on this forum pushing your “it’s all whitey’s fault” meme, but you never, not once, discussed the cancer that thrives in the black community that creates kids like Elkins. Until you do, you’re just being blatently dishonest about black America.
One other thing; what a hypocrite you are to try to push the “evil” corporations meme. Those “evil” corporations, like FaceBook and Microsoft, are absolutely fine with Democrats when they are filling Democrat campaign coffers. And while Eric Holder will have his agency create a website looking for tips on how George Zimmerman is a racist, John Corzine (D) still walks around a free man and billions of dollars from his management of MF Global are still missing.
@Nan G:
I was not necessarily speaking about myself. I have a house, and have a mortgage that paid for it. Going through the process somewhat recently informed my observations, of course. I know people who are perfectly respectable and hard-working, who ruined their credit while younger, and it takes a while to rebuild that. Forget a mistake like going to prison – today that would follow you around forever. (I was just talking to someone about this the other day. There is no more picking yourself up, moving, and starting over. Even Whitey Bulger couldn’t do it.) Banks are under no obligation to take a risk on someone when the potential gain is so small, just like they’re under no obligation to not take a risk on the health of the entire economy when the potential gain is so large.
It’s true my area is very expensive compared to the national average, but salaries are higher too on average. What you did is commendable, but the choice might be different if you were trying to start a career and your skills didn’t line up with the job market.
@Tom:
Golly, when did Congress repeal the Community Reinvestment Act?
Perhaps you should read Thomas Sowell’s book Housing Boom and Bust. You are also quoting the price for a “median” house. Never heard of “starter” houses, I suppose. Why does a young married couple with say, two grade school aged kids, need a four bedroom, 2 1/2 bath house with a two car garage? Fact is, they don’t. It’s not a need they fill when they go into obscene debt, it is a want.
Why should I have sympathy for those who don’t plan for the future, spend every dime they can get their hands on so they can compete with the Jones and then expect the taxpayers to bail them out when he hit a major pot hole in their financial road?
@retire05:
I didn’t realize you, a person in Texas, knows more about the Northeastern housing market than me, a homeowner who lives here. So how much does a “starter house” – say two bedroom, 1 1/2 bath, small plot, no garage – cost within commuting distance to NYC, Boston, Philly, Providence, Hartford, Stanford or Portland? Less than $270K, you say? Far less than $270K, I think I can infer from your attitude?
BTW, the house you described, four bedrooms, 2 1/2 bath, etc.: do you have any idea what that would cost here? You are commenting on something that you are so far out of touch with, it’s honestly unbelievable.
@Tom:
Perhaps you are not smart enough to take into consideration the “cost of living” where you are. That cost includes not just the housing cost, but the taxes on that property as well. Do you think the salaries in the Northeast compensate for the COL? I can guarantee you, they don’t. So do this; pick any one of the towns you listed and I will compare for you how much more you have to earn to have the same quality of life style in a Texas town of the same size.
And if you stay where you are, willing to foot the bill for the high cost of living, perhaps it is because your skills do not allow you to be marketable in other areas with a lower cost of living.
@retire05:
I have no idea what this comment is in response to. I didn’t take into consideration the “cost of living”? Then why did I acknowledge explicitly to Nan that property values and wages are linked in comment 81?
The real question I have, for myself, is why I bother responding to you. Your attempts at side-tracking conversations aren’t very skillful, yet somehow you manage to drag people into pointless side arguments that always start with you deliberately misunderstanding the other person’s viewpoint.
Nan G
YES THE NOW DAYS CHANGED IN A RADICAL WAY,
TERROR IS BEING GLORIFIED, THE ROLLING STONE HAVE NO DECENCY
AND NO MORALS AND ARE SURELY ANTI-AMERICAN, THEY SHOULD BE THROWN OUT OF THIS COUNTRY, THEY ARE ADVERTISING THE BOSTON BOMBER, ROCK STAR TREATMENT,
TOM
FUNNY IT’S ONLY YOU, who think that of retire05
too bad, to loose the good advice you would get if you listen
using the positive EAR
@Tom:
If you want to claim that increased salaries compensate for the higher than average COL, then name a town and give me an income level. I think you are afraid of being proven wrong.
WTF are you talking about? How am I sidetracking when I quote YOU?
@retire05:
Ughh, and here I go again. It just pains to me think that someone might buy one of your pathetic lies.
You apparently don’t understand the difference between “proportionally” and “numerically”. X > Y is simply that: a numerical comparison.
@Tom:
Where did I lie? And why are you trying to dodge answering my questions?
Numeric stats have no bearing if you don’t include proportional stats. If I claimed that automobiles are bad because more people are killed in traffic fatalities now than in 1930, you would be laughing your rear end off.
But people like you like numbers because you think you can cover the truth with them. You can’t.
@retire05:
Okay, you’re either a liar, or you don’t understand the difference between a numerical comparison and a proportional one. Take your pick. Now you’re going to spin it that you don’t agree with the author’s use of a numerical comparison? Fine, state that. It was perfectly clear to anyone with a firm grasp of the English language and a 9th grade math background what the author intended to convey mathematically. So your arguing against something the author didn’t write is dishonest. Like you. For further clarification, see comment 85 “yet somehow you manage to drag people into pointless side arguments that always start with you deliberately misunderstanding the other person’s viewpoint. ” How true.
FYIW, That numerical comparison – that number – is meant to convey the enormity of the current situation. The impact the author likely assumes it will have upon a normal person is one of alarm. The only impact it has upon you is, ‘how can i argue against this?’. You don’t even see it, you don’t even care. All you care about is bickering. And you’re not even good at it! It’s very telling.
@Tom:
Tom, either you’re an idiot or a liar or both. The author of your little piece of propaganda used a numerical reference for one reason and one reason only: to sway the opinion of the reader.
,
There you go. It was to present a false narrative. Thanks for finally admitting that. And you, by using it, bought into that false narrative hook, line and sinker. You CANNOT compare the number of people in slavery in 1860 to the number of black males [only] incarcerated in 2013 without a false narrative.
What is telling is how far you are willing to go to avoid honest debate. And how far you are willing to go to dodge any requests that might be made to you. Pathetic, Tom, pathetic. As to my debate skills, by measure, they make yours look juvenile.
@M. Simon:
Robotics on assembly lines are one thing, where the conditions are easily controlled, where when the robotic arms and manipulators move to the precise same spatial location every time, the object being worked on will be there. Harvesting crops are a completely different matter:
* There are variances in ground surfaces.
* Plants do not grow identically and can vary widely in branching, thickness of branching, height of plants and where the crop appears on each individual plant. Fractal programming is used to imitate how plants grow, but it is not the same as what happens in nature.
* Weather conditions such as wind and rain would have to be taken in effect, not just in equipment hardiness but in harvesting programming.
* Some crops, such as corn, are easy to process with harvesting equipment, many are not.
* How the crop grows on each type of plant will require plant specific programming.
* The simple eye – hand coordination and crop readiness and condition evaluation comes easy to humans, that ability would be much more expensive to instill into robots.
While basic crop-tending robots would be much easier to implement, harvesting robots are still a long way off and early models will likely be much more expensive then hiring human workers, due to the complexity required to manufacture them. It will be quite a while yet before agricultural field robots reach the state of the art level as R2D2 and C3PO.
@Aqua:
One other factor that has been forgotten is employer – employee loyalty. Employers today want loyalty from their employees, but few executives care one whit about the employees under them. What we have today (with a few exceptions,) is more of a feudalistic baron – to – serf attitude from corporate executives, with no loyalty, respect or consideration for the minions under them.
@Ditto:
You obviously have not heard of the Lettuce Bot.
http://www.economist.com/news/technology-quarterly/21567202-robotics-machine-helps-lettuce-farmers-just-one-several-robots
Technology is moving faster than you can imagine. There are also robots that can pick peaches. In the long run, robots will allow fewer men to run larger farms. True, the cost will be high initially, but robots don’t require vacation time, medical benefits, or 401K plans.
In your grandfather’s time, he could work for the same company for 40 years and at the end, he got a hand shake and a gold [plated] watch. No retirement plan, no 401(k) benefits, no insurance after he left employment. And isn’t loyalty earned? Or do you think it should be given without being earned?
Any employer knows that one good employee is worth five lousy ones. You want loyalty? Get rid of the union thugs that demand that everyone be paid equally, no matter how good, or how bad, the employee is.
@jerseyflash: #33
Thank you, I am kicking myself for not having thought of these myself! (I’m too old school, I guess…). Do you have a name for the really effective stun gun and Mace? Preferably something that would work over the greatest distance and spread, assuming multiple attackers? You probably know more than I do, I just know enough to pay attention when the knowledgeable speak.
@Ditto: #36
Here is my take on the Government seizing responsibility for, and authority over, individual citizens:
What do I think would be the perfect system of governance for the USA?
As little as possible.
In all possible areas, my default position is “Personal freedom and responsibility”.
Local governments should only deal with the things that people cannot handle for themselves.
State governments should only deal with the things that local governments can’t.
And the federal government should only deal with the things that state governments can’t.
Notice that I never said “won’t”? I said “can’t”.
This is a vast issue that I will ignore for now, save for the issue of personal freedom.
The government should not forbid me anything that does not cause direct harm to another.
The government should not rescue me from the results of my own decisions.
No helmet laws. No seatbelt laws. No drug laws.
I do recognize that one class of people are too immature to make some decisions, and should be protected until they mature. So, all people must wear helmets and seatbelts until their fifteenth birthday.
In the 1800s, people were getting married and owning businesses at the age of fifteen and even younger. Do kids today have less potential? You want to see young kids with drive, skill, determination and maturity greater than most adults? Just look any art site that appeals to young people. You can see it in their art, in their writings. (Many of them, not all.)
You don’t reach that level of skill and clarity of thought without maturity and discipline.
No laws that limit people because of lifestyle, skin color, gender, whatever.
No laws that offer special protections or privileges to people because of lifestyle, skin color, gender, or whatever. No “hate” crime laws. Murder is murder, assault is assault, no matter who the perp or victim is.
No drug laws. If someone wants to ruin their life by burning out their brain cells, let them. Drugs are actually easy and cheap to make. Competition would drive the price way down, and crimes committed for money to buy drugs would go down as well. And stupid people would remove themselves from the gene pool.
Voluntarily.
I would even contribute to any organization that would hand out free drugs, lowering crime still further.
Build a warehouse, stack it floor to ceiling with cots, make food and facilities available.
“Here’s your free drugs, there’s your cot, there’s the cafeteria and the sanitary facilities. Have at it. We’re not going to force you to eat, that’s your choice. We’re not going to bathe you, that’s your choice. If you die, we’ll zip you up in your waterproof mattress cover and to the fertilizer plant you go. Make yourselves useful at last.
No “Sin” taxes or regulations. No tobacco taxes, no alcohol taxes. Get rid of the BATF.
The only tax allowed would be a consumption tax. You buy something, you pay a tax. Get rid of the IRS.
No gun control. Buy whatever you want. The first time you use it to willfully harm an innocent, away you go.
Punish the choice, not the possession.
As companies must disclose possible side effects of drugs today, leaving it to the consumer to decide whether or not the benefits of that drug are worth the possible drawbacks:
No safety regulations aside from full disclosure. Let people decide for themselves the level of risk/reward that is tolerable. No prescriptions. Let people inform themselves.
No professional licenses. If you want to hang out a sign advertising yourself as a Doctor, feel free. Provide all relevant information about your qualifications and experience, and let people decide for themselves if they want to trust you with their health.
Ditto for hairstylists, interior decorators, and mechanics.
I can see the advertisements:
“The new 2015 Fodge Serpent will go from 0-100mph in six seconds, and looks like a prostitute’s wet dream. It also handles like a tricycle and will fold up like a wet cardboard box in an accident. Your odds of surviving any crash over 35mph are 1 in 5.”
Anyone who wants to buy a Fodge Serpent will have full access to all relevant information. The Fodge company will not be responsible for the resulting carnage unless they withheld important information about the risks involved.
There’s more, but I think that I’ve stirred up enough hornets for one episode.
One caveat: Anyone who leaves a straw man comment, or misquotes me, or begins any comment with “So you’re saying that” as a prelude to twisting my words will be made to look like the idiot that you are. I said exactly, and only, what I said. Read it again.
And if I’ve offended you, well, here’s your pill. There’s a clean cot at C-9-17 with your name on it. Wether or not it stays clean is entirely up to you.
@Petercat:
A long time ago, I had a college professor who advocated the exact same thing, making almost identical points. It makes more sense than most people think.
@another vet: #63
I have a friend who owns a heavy construction company. He once told me that he will hire all of the Mexican immigrants that he can, but he won’t hire any that grew up here. It’s a USA cultural thing.
By the way, he was paying $15.00 an hour back when the prevailing wage for his kind of construction was 13.50, and he still couldn’t find enough local people who wanted to work to his standards.
Working with Mexicans certainly taught ME a thing or two about, well, working with Mexicans. They ran my sorry a-s into the ground!
@Petercat:
How about this: if it is not listed in one of the 18 enumerated powers granted to the federal government by the Constitution, it is left to the states and to the people, by their vote?
@Tom: #85
This is why I put the number of the comment to which I am replying in the line above. I wish everyone here did, these forums get confusing sometimes! 🙂