According to this video it appears he was executed after being captured and beaten…unlike the first news reports from the Rebels:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75YhFScM5sU[/youtube]
Geneva convention? Waterboarding? Trial and then hanging? Eh….who needs em.
That animal is dead, thankfully….
And being replaced by a thousand other animals.
See author page
McCain said we must ”deepen” our relationship with these thugs and murderers.
I’m assuming he means giving them money.
But why?
Who are they?
The only ones I know of were al Qaeda and other miltiant Islamists who have been ethnically clensing Libya of all Jews, Christians, most black African Libyans and even some of their more peaceful Muslim sects.
(OK, maybe ”ethnic” cleansing is not the precise word for what it is they are doing. But they are doing something like it.)
But be deep friends with them?
John McC, where is your head?
I’m not looking to pick a fight, but I’ve been struck by the comparison/contrast between the respective overthrows/executions of Qadaffi and Saddam. It seems to me that the former is been virtually universally celebrated by the Libyan people, while the latter was very much a mixed bag, Shiites and Kurds happy; Sunnis not so much. The Libyan revolution was very much ground up/internal as opposed to top down/external.
With regard to Nan’s point, revolutions are always very messy; sometimes they work out for the best (USA, France); sometimes not so much (USSR). The immediate aftermath is not the time to judge, however. They need time to transition from revolution mode to rule of law mode. We need to see just what sort of regime will emerge and how their rule of law works out.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA
@openid.aol.com/runnswim: Larry, the Sunnis were doing quite well with Saddam while the Shia and Kurds did not. By the way, the Kurds are Sunni! Think that might make a difference in their attitudes?
What a fine example of the “democracy” and “justice” these scum have in mind for Libya’s future…
Like Curt says… one animal dead, replaced by thousands more animals. What an improvement.
Onus on the Bozo in Chief for his ill chosen cheerleading, and participating in thug to thug fighting. All which was best left to an internal civil war, without Western powers interference.
Hi Mata: The UK stood by us in “our” wars, even when a large segment of the British electorate and body politic was not in agreement. The UK, France, Italy took the lead in “their” war, but asked for our support. Obama played this one perfectly by “leading from behind.” There simply could not have been a better outcome, given all the factors totally beyond our control. An alliance is a two way street — our allies come to our assistance; we need to do the same for them.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA
Yeh Larry — that French revolution worked out really well for them — a regular revisionist’s history carbon copy of the American revolution – NOT — nice try at equivalency there
Who said the French revolution and subsequent events, leading to their current stable democracy, were a carbon copy of America’s? No two revolutions are alike; circumstances are very different. My point was simply that the ultimate success of revolutions can’t be judged in the immediate aftermath. We won’t really know how Iraq is going to turn out until a decade or more following the withdrawal of all of our forces. It certainly would have been imprudent to judge the outcome of the Iraq War on the day when we pulled the iconic statue down.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA
Hold on Larry, we have yet to see what has been wrought by ‘leading from behind’. There’s a lot of collateral damage possibilities, a lot on munitions including 20,000 SA-7, 9, 13 surface to air missiles floating around somewhere in Africa, ME or S. America that may be coming to the shores of NATO!
Now now, Westie… don’t be putting the crimp on Larry’s talking points. i.e. supporting Libya is a rousing success, no matter what the outcome, but we’ll have to wait decades to pronounce Iraq… who’s constructed a constitution, tried not murdered Saddam, and held sundry elections… a success. LOL
I know there are some Bulgarian nurses and some American parents who are very happy.
Well, finally Old Trooper is right!!!
(although it was far from 12 hours away)
[February 24, 2011 at 6:08 pm]
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
I don’t think the French Revolution worked out for the best….as well as the reign of terror this lead to the despot Napoleon and all his wars. Later the French monarchy was even restored! France eventually gained democracy but I don’t think it was due to the French Revolution. That would be like saying Russia gained it democracy (eventually) thanks to the Russian Revolution back in 1917…so that’s ok then it must have worked out fine…just a few bumps (and millions killed) along the way.
@MataHarley:
I know this will be hard for you as you are blinded by a hyper-partisan agenda: Americans are happy-excluding you-because an enemy of the United States has been justly killed.
It really is a shame that there are buzz-kill individuals such as yourself who can’t for a moment just enjoy the moment that someone who killed hundreds of Americans has been eliminated.
You are a very sad person, Mata. Having a case of the ass 24/7 must really be a drag for you.
Hi Gaffa and Budvar:
O.K. I concede that France should probably be bumped into the “didn’t work out so well” column.
On the other hand, if there were no French Revolution, there would be no Napoleonic War and without the Napoleonic War there would be no Patrick O’Brian novels, considered to be some of the best works of historical fiction ever written.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA
Hi Mata (#9): My main “talking point” regarding Libya, which I’ve been making since we first started arguing about this, way back when, was that the USA is a member of NATO and we have allies in NATO who have supported “our” wars and it is, therefore, our obligation to reciprocate, if we want to maintain the support of our allies, which I’d maintain is in our best interests. Since the Brits and the French were the ones most gung-ho to rescue Benghazi from Qadaffi’s tanks and ultimately to depose Qadaffi, Obama’s “leading from behind” strategy exposed us to the least risk, while fulfilling our obligations to our allies.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA
Larry, NATO/UNSC did not okay a “war”. They okay’ed a no fly zone… not support for either side. Then again, it appears too many in your party don’t know the difference.
And I see Mr. Personality,Ivan, has surfaced again to lend his support for thugs. Only now his ego has been self-inflated to assume he speaks for “all Americans”. As is usual, Ivan, you are good for a laugh… and even some pity that one filled with as much hatred as you have for everyone and everything, must have a problem functioning in his own skin.
Oh yes.. an example of the new Libya….photos of their treatment of Gaddafi… none of which included any “democracy” or “trial”… but magically a bullet to the head. Crossfire? My ass….
At least the Iraqis had a trial. It was always an animal vs animals war. The US should never have chosen sides, or been involved.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim: There also would not have been any Lousianna Purchase.
Hi Mata, The no fly zone required the USA to take out the anti-aircraft installations. That’s basically what we did. It was Britain and France who wanted to extend the military action to take out Qadaffi forces, when Qadaffi threatened to massive punishment and sent tanks to inflict said punishment. Once again, we have no ally more steadfast than the UK, and we do have a need to answer their call, in return for their answering ours.
I didn’t realize that John McCain (who wanted the US not only to participate but to take the lead) is in my party.
I need to look up what others are in my party that I also didn’t realize were there.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA
@Ivan: #13,
Relations with Qaddafi had been normalized for some time, or perhaps you don’t remember Quaddafi’s, . . . . “Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi considers the US president a blessing to the Muslim world. In a speech published in London-based al-Hayat newspaper on Saturday, Gaddafi praised Barack Obama, called him a “friend” and said there is no longer any dispute between his country and the US. ……. He is someone I consider a friend.” Of course this coincided with a bend-over at the waist from Obama.
And as for the current trolling mantra that Obama’s “leading from behind”, . . . that is utter garbage. The U.S. taxpayer has incurred approximately 80% of the cost on this WAR. It’s pathetic that so many believe the daily lies that come out of Obama’s mouth.
Yes, it’s a good thing that the scum like Qaddafi are removed, but as far a North American interests are concerned, he was an impotent loudmouth that was taken out rather easily by any standard. Libya will probably follow the disasters of previous revolutions like that of France, but worse because it is a country of very diverse ‘sects’ and tribes. Tribes follow ‘strongmen’ – NOT democratically elected leaders.
Syria, on the other hand, isn’t led by an impotent loudmouth. Syria has much more power and influence and Mr. Lead-From-Behind is busy campaigning.
—
Clinton’s gloating further turns this Administration into a Halloween absurdity: “We came, we saw, he died,” she joked when told of news reports of Qaddafi’s death by an aide in between formal interviews.
@MataHarley:
What are you talking about? You’re the only person I’ve read who’s not ecstatic that Ghadaffy is dead.
I’m very happy being an American, while you seem very unhappy with a pro-American event!
Just admit that you’re letting your partisan nature control you and I’ll stop bitch-slapping you now.
;->
Hi Randy (#16): This reminds me of a book my wife read last year:
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
Yes, “perfectly” indeed. Now no despot anywhere will voluntarily lay aside WMD’s based on a promise to be left alone by the US. . . well done, so much for “give peace a chance”. Were you , by chance, in the “let the inspectors do their job camp” pre Iraqi Freedom?
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
He is, Larry. It’s just not official.
@Ivan: ‘You’re the only person I’ve read who’s not ecstatic that Ghadaffy is dead.’
Probably, people who have mixed feelings about the course of events aren’t going to be posting as enthusiastically as the cheerleaders. Qaddafi killed enough people that he had it coming, I guess, but the way this was handled is not a good omen for Libya’s future.
I might add that the whole enterprise doesn’t help in our attempts to curtail the spread of nuclear weapons. Some might remember that Qaddafi had a nascent nuclear weapons program, but was eventually convinced to give it up as part of the gradual normalization of relations. If we make similar offers in future they will not seem as credible.
Really, Larry? Gee… when did Gaddafi’s palaces learn to fly? Ironically, a US predator drone launched an attack on Gaddafi’s convoy moments before his attack… and missed.
When did ground vehicle convoys learn to fly?
Instead he was captured, and assassinated by the “new Libya” mentality. Think they’ll be prosecuted for an execution by the Libyan new regime? I’ll be holding my breath… not.
And speaking of such a glorious @“pro American event”, since when did the US celebrate the capture, and obvious emotional and deliberate execution, without trial, of the enemy/former US ally post 2001? With Awlaki, he eluded 2-3 times of attempted capture before being executed by drone fire. But we sure didn’t capture him, then shoot him in the head at point blank range, as happened with Gaddafi.
But according to some, this is a wonderful moment for the US.
Speaking of the bozo mentality that thinks I am supporting Gaddafi, apparently reading skills are a lost art. What I said was an animal was dead, and replaced with 1000’s of other animals… which echo Curt’s observations above. That is entirely true. Why would I celebrate either side of this conflict when I find both equally abhorrent? And in fact, considering Gaddafi’s behavior since 2001, and the rebels behavior since their uprising in the past months, I’d say that out of two losing groups of humans, the rebels are those closer to being the the bottom feeders.
I don’t mourn Gaddafi’s death, but I do mourn the US involvement in this, and deplore that anyone thinks his death in this manner is, in any way, reflecting positive on the US and our unwarranted involvement in a civil war. Then, of course, there is the blatant abuse of what was only supposed to be a no-fly zone, but was actually an int’l sanctioned hit squad using NATO and US forces, and orchestrated by the Arab League themselves.
I said it before, and I’ll say it again.. the US and the west were the dupes of Arab League, who desperately wanted Gaddafi dead. They got the west to involve themselves in a civil war of no consequence to the rest of the free world, and pave the way from new Libyan thugs to replace the old Libyan thug.
And dupes like Ivan are celebrating…. they actually see all this as a positive. Well, when one lives obsessed with a vigilante mentality, and is also dumb enough to be celebrating being a puppet of the Arab League… to the tune of how many billions?… debating the nearest 2 year old is likely more fruitful and thought provoking.
Oh, Ivan… one more thing. Yes, you do “slap” like a bitch….
Oh yes, obama deserves credit. I mean, he green lighted the team that went in and killed Qadaffi. What? No? Ok, but he green lighted ground forces to go in and help the Libyans, right? No? He at least led the charge to create a no fly zone, didn’t he? No to that too?
Then he doesn’t deserve any credit, now does he?
Hi Mata: I don’t expect to to give my own arguments and opinions any credence; here’s what 4 GOP Senators had to say:
Source: http://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/ward-room/Kirk-on-Khaddafy-Death-132244223.html#ixzz1bO8W0BeN
Source: http://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/ward-room/Kirk-on-Khaddafy-Death-132244223.html#ixzz1bO8JAo2j
I just now heard Kirk give an interview on BBC radio. He actually said that the Libyan operation was a “credit to Obama.”
I don’t know how this will all end up, but I do think it’s not such a bad thing to, on occasion, enjoy a moment of bipartisan graciousness.
P.S. (Added 22:10 GMT -7):
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA
Poor Mata, A great day for the US, justice for our war dead, and you can’t for the life of you be happy about it.
It must really suck to be you and see good news and not be happy about it.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
Larry, you quoted 4 politicians.
They are gullible.
Let me fix their quote for them:
Now, these are the same Libyans who have been ethnically cleansing Libya of all Jews*, Christians**, most black African Libyans*** and even some of their more peaceful Muslim sects****.
But our politicians took them at their word.
Their words mean nothing compared with what we already know they have done.
*http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=libya%20synagog&source=newssearch&cd=3&ved=0CD8QqQIwAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jpost.com%2FMiddleEast%2FArticle.aspx%3Fid%3D241109&ctbm=nws&ei=jmmgToPeNY-ssALsyqCMBQ&usg=AFQjCNEK2tJrcPIcoeuWkgP5qnFZjHSE4A&cad=rja
**http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=libya%20christians&source=newssearch&cd=2&sqi=2&ved=0CDUQqQIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bosnewslife.com%2F18719-breaking-news-libya-rebels-capture-gadhafi-christians-concerned&ctbm=nws&ei=QGqgTsT-CeWQsQL7lOSbBQ&usg=AFQjCNEFCrcP9AZZE1mHx969dId5k8Lo3A&cad=rja
***http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=libya%20black%20africans&source=newssearch&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CCsQqQIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.afriquejet.com%2Flibya-news-2011102025479.html&ctbm=nws&ei=aGqgTqGlFpLMsQLnut3FBQ&usg=AFQjCNF8CdF84VQgMVKuJLIDFQahafCXPg&cad=rja
****http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=libya%20muslim%20sects&source=newssearch&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CCwQqQIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ajc.com%2Fnews%2Fnation-world%2Fislamic-hard-liners-attack-1199820.html&ctbm=nws&ei=pWqgTvOUKIa2sQKF84ypBQ&usg=AFQjCNEAa36few7GB_q3njUHFeEjvrCWQg&cad=rja
Larry, your man crush on obama is tiresome.
Do you really think what 4 senators say means diddley? Unlike libs, we don’t take orders from “higher ups”. They are free to voice their opinion, but they are naive and wrong.
I wonder if you’ll be blaming obama when the Islamic fascists take over Libya? Wait, I already know the answer. You’ll absolve him of all blame like you still do for the economy.
@ Wm T Sherman
Bhahahahahah! You owe me a new monitor. Mine has coffee all over it. 🙂
@MataHarley:
Boo-hoo! I bet you would have cried at what they did to Mussolini. Friggen hausfrau emotions are not how the real world operates, Mata.
Wow, your ACLU card all paid-up and in full, Mata? BWAAA….BWAAAA…Poor Quadaffi was given street justice and Mata doesn’t like it.
@Ivan:
Barack Obama:
Only an a**hole would condone what was done to Gaddafi. Libyans had a chance to show the world something special. Gaddafi was scum but violating his basic human rights proves only that absolutely nothing was accomplished. Absolutely nothing has changed. One monster has been replaced by another.
You need to be better than that which you criticize.
Gaddafi should have been treated with kids gloves right up until his execution following a trial. It would have been an example to the world that Libyans were determined to change things and move away from Gaddafi’s policies. Instead, they prove that they truly are animals no different from Muammar.
And the same freaking jerks here who frothed at the mouth in outrage that the mastermind of 9-11 got some water spritzed up his nose now revel in the murder of a leader while he was in custody.
Damned hypocrites.
Libya will eventually come to be led by another Gaddafi- but this time a fundamentally religious one.
[@Ivan: ‘A great day for the US, justice for our war dead, and you can’t for the life of you be happy about it.’
I don’t see how the US benefits… seems more like the opposite. And which war dead are you thinking of?
But speaking for myself, the lack of a celebratory attitude also probably has a lot to do with the folkways of Pennsylvania, where I grew up; though I was not raised as a Mennonite or Quaker or Amish, their general attitude still pervades parts of rural PA. And rejoicing at anyone’s death would really be viewed as unseemly or downright unchristian.
Apparently the vigilante Arabs share Ivan’s lust for that style of justice.
Why the beef about how a bad guy was executed? Because @DrJohn has it exactly right. When the moment came to show that the thugs taking over were really better than the thug that had control, they didn’t. And indeed, it seems the Arab twitterworld has had their bloodlust tweaked in the process.
As the NYTs article noted:
Both Amnesty Int’l and the UN Human Rights organizations are calling for investigations into the execution, and this is delaying the burial. Supposedly the Libyan Transition Council’s PM, Mahmoud Jibril, is ordering an investigation as well.
It seems that even many Libyan’s recognize that an execution by an out of control militia doesn’t bode well for their “transition” either.
Considering the Arabtwitterworld’ quest for more blood, good luck in getting those arms away from the militias….
Oh yes… the talking head morning circuits were filled with lots of those (according to the whiny and petulant Ivan’ski) unAmerican types that are questioning just how wonderful an out of control execution was, and exactly what that portends for a “new” Libya. The Transitional Council will have their hands full now. They appear to be impotent, unable to control their militias. And it’s highly doubted they will try those who still insist that Gaddafi was “killed in the crossfire”.
But it will be a seriously ugly start to “democracy” (heh) in Libya, sanctioning vigilante executions as “justice”. One tyrant dead, replaced by lots of happy go lucky vigilante thugs. Terrific change there.
While predictions of the future are simply guesses, educated or not, it is clear from historical and current realities that the National Transitional Council in Libya does not and will not control the country unless Obama (under the pretence of NATO) agrees to put boots on the ground.
Other Arab countries (Saudis, Kuwaitis, etc.) in the region wanted the U.S. to do their bidding, getting rid of an irritating gnat named Qaddafi in their midst, but they will not accept American or European presence in Libya. In fact, permanent instability in Libya, is good for the dictatorships in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait.
It rattles the mind to listen to Obama now using the noun “democracy” when bragging about Libya.
I haven’t yet formed a final opinion on the following topic, but I’d like to know the moral difference between shooting Bin Laden in the head and shooting Qadaffi in the head — other than the fact that the former affair was done in a more private fashion than the latter?
Ronald Reagan tried to kill Qadaffi with a bomb launched from a US fighter plane. He didn’t kill Qadaffi, but did manage to kill one of Qadaffi’s daughters. Does it matter if you kill someone with a sidearm or rifle or Predator drone or Apache missile or 60 tons of ordnance dropped by F-111s?
I mean, can someone explain the nuanced differences between these forms of execution?
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA
Gee, I dunno, Larry…. the not-so-nuanced difference just may be that the target was captured, unarmed and unable to resist the capture…. unlike the others where attempts to capture had failed, the target refused to turn himself in, and was most definitely resisting arrest at every avenue.
I hardly think gang beatings and executions performed on a captured and subdued criminal should be the way of the “new” Libya. Not much different than the old Libya, eh? Why do you think that, despite the video evidence (dumb SOBs… LOL), they insist he was killed, by two bullets to the head at close range, with “crossfire”? They took “justice” into their own hands, when turning him over for trial was easy to do, and are now trying to worm their way out of it.
How the transition council handles this should be an indicator of their genuine devotion to “democracy” and “justice”. I suspect it will be more of a staged show trial of any militia members, if they even do that. Just the attempt to try those rebels – seen by some as local heroes – is likely to create even more uprisings.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
You are really behind the news curve, Larry.
Turned out the daughter supposedly killed by that bomb is alive and well.
Her ”death” was a great sympathy ploy.
And Gaddafi used to to put out a hit on all of Ronald Reagan’s children.
Now, are you also unaware of the distinction between a government-sanctioned action VS the acts of a riotous mob?
Amazing!
Hi Nan, Thanks for the update on Qadaffi’s daughter. I’m glad that she’s alive and well.
But she was lucky, don’t you think? This wasn’t a surgical strike. It was a lot of bombs dropped on Qadaffi’s compound, directly trying to kill him.
I don’t see the fine distinction between a foreign government “sanctioning” the execution of a head of state and a “riotous mob” sanctioning the execution of a head of state. If anything, the latter is more excusable; the Libyan rebels weren’t a trained army. The fact that there would be an element of spontaneous, vigilante justice shouldn’t really surprise anyone. When emotions run hot, things happen. In contrast, the Reagan “sanction” was both calculated and cold. Truly, I personally can’t find a true moral distinction between the two.
In a court of law, the mob lynching would be non-premeditated, second degree murder. The Reagan “sanction” would be premeditated, first degree murder. I don’t see that one is more civilized and moral and lawful than the other. I also can’t draw a moral distinction between the killings of Qadaffi, on one hand, and Bin Laden, on the other.
I suppose that it’s OK for the USA to kill whomever we want, while it’s not OK for others to do this. This is basically how I see your argument in this.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA
If you can’t “find a true moral distinction between the two”, then that’s the saddest statement of your moral perspective that I’ve ever read, Larry. You have now put your stamp of approval on vigilante justice… that mobs who capture and subdue someone are easily forgiven for their emotional executions. We should be sure to let Curt know that he’s free to just blow a perp’s head off after he captures a bad guy – jail and trial optional – and you won’t have a problem with that.
WTF?
And how are you so omnipotent to know these rebels weren’t trained? They’ve had training camps for these guys since spring. And does it require “training” to know that when you have the bad guy subdued, you shouldn’t be shooting him in the head? Anyone that dumb shouldn’t even be armed….
Well that’s obvious, Larry. Because you do not see the difference between how the feds attempt to nab a wanted an individual classified as a target – based on intel and/or events. You refuse to acknowledge that the US first makes the attempts to capture or extradite criminals. Why don’t you tell us when UBL, Gaddafi or the other examples you give, were ever in our custody to execute?
But most appalling is that you refuse to recognize the largest difference – that the US does not capture and subdue a criminal… then execute that subdued/captured criminal.
Larry, I can’t top the way Mata expressed amazement at your moral blindness.
Go open a Bible.
One of the Ten Commandments is ”Thou shalt not MURDER.”
Later, when discussing how a good Christian ought to behave under the rulership of sinful humans, one of Jesus’ Apostles asks, “Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing.”
Individuals should not go about meting out their personal version of justice.
But government have that right and wield that power.
Larry has a medical degree. He knows everything. Just ask him.
@DrJohn:
Only a putz wouldn’t want Gaddafi to meet street justice. Only a labia wouldn’t want Gaddafi to meet the fate he met.
I can sling mud, too, Dr. John!
Another faux-patriot wit a case of the ASS on display at Floppingaces.net.
Always amusing when Ivan’ski shows up to give us all lessons that American justice is executing captured and disarmed enemies… Of course, that’s not the America I know. But it may be his hero’s, Obama, methods. Or perhaps Ivan’ski would be happier amongst the Libyan thugs?
BTW, Ivan… when you desperately attempt to continue your fighting/slapping like a bitch, it would be less embarrassing if you at least stuck to a language you know… assuming you even know English, let alone Latin. Labia is a plural form of what is a decidedly better description of you, based on your emotional, hormonal behavior … not a singular. Therefore the sentence should correctly read “only a labium”. Practice it in front of a mirror, where it’s directed at the appropriate subject.
@MataHarley:
So I can put you down as being sad about how Mussolini met his fate.
@MataHarley:
GUFAW. You wouldn’t know America if it bit you on your fat behind, Mata. The vast majority of Americans are ecstatic that this POS is taking a dirt-nap. But no, not Mata, Curt and a few malcontents at FA. Yep, it’s almost like you’re sad that the butcher of Benghazi is dead.
Are you an apologist for a killer of Americans? BFD, the murdering terrorist wasn’t give a trial-by-jury. Booh-fricken-hoo.
Libyan thugs? Do you mean the Libyan freedom fighters? Typical liberal that you are, you can’t see these people destroyed an illegitimate dictator.
Now that’s a hoot, since it’s the liberals, like Ivan, who look at the Libyan rebels as “freedom fighters”, while so many real conservatives cast a wary eye at just who they, and their pals in the ranks, are. That’s like looking at the MB, Zawahiri, UBL or Castro as “freedom fighters” since they wage, waged or want to wage civil war against existing governments.
Now, for the icing on the cake… these “freedom fighters” seem to have a twisted view of “freedom”. Because evidently captured and disarmed state enemies don’t deserve trials in Ivan’s America or the new Libya. Execution lynching is their idea of “freedom” and justice.
Do you ever get tired of playing the fool, Ivan? I do hope not. You are always good for a laugh.
Hey Ivan… What’s it like to never have a working relationship with a clue?
Hi Mata, Nan, Sherman:
1. The comparison between the Libyan rebels and the LA Sheriff’s department is entirely odious.
2. I’m not excusing what the rebels did to Qadaffi. I’m saying that I understand it and that I don’t see the moral distinction between what they did and what Obama did to Bin Laden and what Reagan tried to do Qadaffi. In each case, you had armed combatants executing a head of state or leader.
I watched the video clips of the Qadaffi affair. This was not a platoon of trained soldiers and it sure wasn’t a task force of professional Deputy Sheriffs operating in peace time. This was a rag tag, motley group of rebels, not under the direction or control of anyone and one or more of them made the on the spot decision to shoot Qadaffi.
When the Seals shot Bin Laden, there was no evidence that he was resisting or was even armed, to my knowledge.
So Reagan tried to take Qadaffi out by dropping bombs on his head. Obama tried to take Qadaffi out by firing a predator drone at him. And a hot head in a mob finally got the job done.
I don’t see how you can cast aspersions on the entire Libyan revolution, based on the actions of a couple of hot heads in a disorganized mob.
They were not professional soldiers and they were not professional law enforcement officers. And it was part of a very hot shooting war, in which a great many people where killed and injured. I don’t make excuses for whomever did it, but, again, I don’t see a huge moral distinction between planned assassination and spontaneous assassination at the end of hot pursuit (of an individual whom both Reagan and Obama had already tried to kill).
The word was out on the street. Qadaffi was wanted, Dead or Alive. This really wasn’t at all different from our country’s policies regarding Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, when both were at large.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=79882&page=1
I asked a question: where’s the bright line moral distinction, here? I think that the holier-than-thou condescension was inappropriate. You all see a bright line moral distinction; I don’t. It doesn’t mean that I think that the Qadaffi killing was justifiable. Don’t put words in my mouth. I think that it was understandable, however, given the circumstances, and it’s not justifiable to draw inferences from Qadaffi’s end and use them to trash what was, in all respects, very adroit handling of a very difficult situation by the Obama administration.
I understand you guys piling on me and McCain, but what about Tea Party darling Rubio? He also came out four square in favor of supporting the Libyan rebellion, only he would have involved US forces even more heavily and directly than Obama did.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA
Wait a minute… reverse the tape, please. Comment #41 by Larry:
So you are “not excusing” the execution, but you say that the execution was “more excusable” because they weren’t a trained army?
????
Larry, the “hot shooting war” was over. The video clearly shows an unarmed, beaten to a pulp and injured Gaddafi being worked over by thugs… er, an “untrained” army. As I said, anyone dumb enough to think that “freedom and justice”, perpetrated by supposed “freedom fighters” translates to a couple of bullets to the head of an unarmed, beaten guy that was supposed to be brought to trial is too dumb to carry a weapon. That’s not rocket science, and doesn’t need a training manual. When you have subdued your enemy, any genuine “freedom fighter” wouldn’t be executing a captured and unarmed enemy.
What is it about this that you and your other liberal bud, Ivan, seem to miss?
And “to your knowledge”, about the UBL event, the SEALs had already been thru a fight with armed guards before they got to that room. The wives were lunging at the SEALs and they had no idea who else was in the room to protect the dear leader. But I will agree that a tacit agreement to kill, as opposed to capture, took priority for two reasons. Obama didn’t want to deal with capturing him via an illegal invasion on foreign soil, and didn’t want to be subject to the national dissent on where to house the scumball.
But again, I will remind you…. there have been numerous attempts to capture UBL alive, and all have failed. There have also been numerous efforts to get Pakistan to capture and turn over UBL… and all have failed.
But never.. and I mean never… have we had UBL in US custody, unarmed and captured in an obviously secured situation, to execute. To the very second of his death, he had others with him that were fighting. Plus more could have been present. Not even close to what Gaddafi was in the back of that truck.
I will repeat, tho you think it a “holier than thou” observation. Your absence of clarity and distorted moral perspective, totally founded upon your politics, is the saddest insight into who you are I’ve seen yet. To compare Libyan thugs, who undeniably executed a secured and captured state enemy, to SEALs who were under fire the entire UBL mission is nothing less than disgusting.
And oh yes… I could care less what McCain or Rubio say. I don’t form my perspectives via the herd mentality. Nor do I look to them for viability.
Thoughtful remarks, Larry.
King-designate, David, had already been chosen to replace then-King Saul in Israel.
Saul had lost favor with the God who anointed him.
Once Saul was dead, David would become King.
David had a chance to kill Saul, even getting into his tent while he slept.
But David did not kill him, only left with proof he had a chance.
Another man however did kill Saul.
What did David do?
He made the man pay for the crime of raising his hand against the then-King.
I think it will be interesting to see how the killer of Gaddafi is treated.
He has come forward.
Kind of a long-haired guy in a hat that has a NY logo on it.
So far no arrest.
Hi Mata, mea culpa. You have established your clear moral superiority over me. Are you satisfied, now?
– Larry
Why on earth would I be “satisfied”, Larry? This isn’t about establishing debate points. Rather it’s about clarifying how other Americans, particularly those of your political favor, tend to equate our military with obvious, anti-freedom and purported “democracy” murderous thugs, with no regard for the “freedom” they supposedly seek.
Obviously you’d prefer not to actually address the flaws in your thought processes, and simply dodge the reality of the comparison. There is no “satisfaction” since you obviously walk away with the same low opinion of our military that you stated above. And I find that an extremely sad state of affairs for the future of this nation.
So “satisfied”? Not in the least.
those people are to be rule with an iron fist, because if you turn your back on them they will kill you, and if you relax the rules they will kill you. they prove it that they believe in violence, lynching beating by a mob, and shot, the next generation will give them the same to take their place, because they will again outnumber them.
@MataHarley: So let me get this straight. larry approves of killing the OWS perbs when they resist arrest?