Yes, it’s reckless of him to do it, but still, it seems if they didn’t have a Terry Jones they would have to make up something, ie. cartoons, to get their panties twisted in a knot. Burning the Koran is bad but killing innocent human beings is good…What kind of thought process is this?
Friday’s incident began when three mullahs, addressing worshippers at Friday prayers inside the Blue Mosque here, one of Afghanistan’s holiest places, urged people to take to the streets to agitate for the arrest of Terry Jones, the Florida pastor who oversaw the burning of a Koran on March 20. Otherwise, said the most prominent of them, Mullah Mohammed Shah Adeli, Afghanistan should cut off relations with the United States. “Burning the Koran is an insult to Islam and those who committed it should be punished,” he said.
The crowd — some carrying signs reading “Down with America” and “Death to Obama” — poured into the streets and swelled — the governor of Balkh Province, Atta Mohammad Noor, later put the number at 20,000…
The mob also burned down part of the United Nations compound, toppled guard towers and heaved blocks of cement down from the walls. The victims were killed by weapons that the demonstrators had wrestled away from the United Nations guards, according to Mr. Noor…
A prominent Afghan cleric, Mullah Qyamudin Kashaf, acting head of the Ulema Council of Afghanistan (and a Karzai appointee), also called for American authorities to arrest and try Mr. Jones for the Koran burning.
The Ulema Council recently met to discuss the Koran burning, he said in a telephone interview. “We expressed our deep concerns about this act and we were expecting the violence that we are witnessing now,” Mullah Kashaf said. “Unless they try him and give him the highest possible punishment, we will witness violence and protests not only in Afghanistan but in the entire world.”
The governor of the town blamed the Taliban:
The governor of Balkh province said insurgents had used the march as cover to attack the compound, in a battle that raged for several hours and raises serious questions about plans to make the city a pilot for security transfer to national forces.
“The insurgents have taken advantage of the situation to attack the U.N. compound,” said Governor Ata Mohammad Noor.
But as Allah notes, this doesn’t jive with the report that the compound was overrun by a huge crowd and that they were killed with their own weapons. I’m thinking the Taliban would of brought their own. Overrunning a compound and wresting away the weapons is a sign of a violent riot….not a coordinated attack.
Jones is a moron but no one should defend these fanatics by blaming him. I have a feeling our MSM will do just that tho…as they have done in the past. It is shear lunacy to be held hostage by the followers of Islam. We can burn our flag, a bible, and pretty much anything else but if someone burns a Koran we should shake in fear.
THAT is terrorism and we shouldn’t cave to it.
The killers are responsible for these murders and THEY should be brought trial, not Terry Jones.
Exit quote from the Taliban English language website: (h/t The Jawa Report)
Though the American rulers say, the burning of the Holy Quran falls under the category of freedom of speech but the question arises if a Muslim reacts to the bestial step of Terry Jones in a self-same manner, then would the American rulers and media tolerate it under the rules of the freedom of speech and would they remain silent? Or rather that the Americans including the rulers, politicians, religious followers and media of the West will simultaneously, run a mock and refer the case to the Security Council and the United Nations?
You gotta be kidding me.
More here
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@ilovebeeswarzone: You are right. He was in fact within his rights to do so but just because a person can do something doesn’t mean they should. In America if you start a riot you are legally responsible. He absolutely knew it would cause rioting and protest. Therefore he is negligent to a degree. That’s the difference between Voluntary and Involuntary manslaughter. The legal definition is simple.
“Most unintentional killings are not murder but involuntary manslaughter. The absence of the element of intent is the key distinguishing factor between voluntary and involuntary manslaughter. In most states involuntary manslaughter results from an improper use of reasonable care or skill while performing a legal act, or while committing an act that is unlawful but not felonious”
Therefore he didn’t necessarily have intent to cause another’s death but while doing something that was as you say “legal” it still caused the death of innocent people. Their blood is on his hands.
James harper if a law was made to ban koran burning, it starts riots, then would we also have to make all destruction of religious symbols illegal due to the constitution and its laws against respecting religion? Why not just make media coverage of riot starting, koran burning illegal? That makes just as much sense because the media knew that that would start a riot as much as the pastor. The media is just as responsible as the guy, Should we shut flopping aces down for covering the story?
@Zac: It’s not the coverage of the story that outraged people to the point of violence. It was the act of burning the quran that did it. It would be no difference than if a man were cleared of rape and murder then by his release I angrily started a riot and got people so riled up that someone went and killed him. I could then be held responsible for inciting a riot and also involuntary manslaughter.
As far as I understand he did not intentionally start a riot, that’s like saying that a guy should not speak out as a republican because it gets the democrats all riled up and they trash madison wisconsin. Or maybe black guys should be banned from certain towns because they get the kkk all riled up.
Now if the pastor did it again then maybe…. But I’m not so sure about all this semi-constituional stuff.
@Zac: He knew what the backlash would be. This isn’t the first time for him. He started all this last year. People from all around responded and asked him to reconsider. Even General Petraeus warned that it could jeopardize American troops and asked him to NOT follow through. He absolutely intended to cause an an uprising and now should be held responsible.
It appears to be too late to save Europe.
If we follow the brave leadership of Terry Jones, we may still save North America.
James Harper, those killers alawys justify their killer instinct on some or the other,
look at the muslim who killed at FORT HOOD MANY OF HIS CO GROUPS THAT HE WAS WITH THEM FOR QUITE A WHILE, IT was said that he did not want to be called to go to AFGHANISTAN,
oh ya, what a poor excuse to kill all thoses braves. no sorry but your theory doesn’t work for MUSLIMS.
they cold blood fabricate EID to explode our braves, even some citizen help on it and some bring the family to hide the componants under their clothes, by the way, do you know how many of our own died
with those EIDS WHICH YOU KNOW ARE A CLUSTTER OF BOMBS TIED TOGETHER TO NOT ONLY KILL BUT SHRED TO PIECES, no wonder some of our guys and girls develop THE PSD, in that hell place.
@ilovebeeswarzone: I am not siding with the muslims but I am on the side of the innocent victims.
they start another war, and did not even finish that one, because they dont know how a war should be done, and finish, why then start another one they wont be able to finish, while the BRAVEST
SPILL THEIR BLOOD AND ON TOP OF IT TO SAVE SOME ENNEMIES WHO HATE US, AND WILL COME BACK TO KILL.
James Harper, those victims are on the WARZONE and know it, so how come they had no defences around to protect them. it was a must do,
what isit with the un, are they willingly leave their employees un protected there, they are responsible for their protection.
Muslims maim; muslims kill, and muslims behead if somebody somewhere burns muslim propaganda (and for uncountable other more mysterious reasons).
I am not sure this behaviour can be fixed without some significant intestinal fortitude.
Now is the time for CLEAR THINKING about Islam; else there may be no tomorrow.
These people do not need a real reason to kill. In fact, they are typical of the postmodern world where no one needs to take responsibility for their own actions. Those who embrace postmodern philosophy (primarily the left) enable these murders to kill, “because some ignorant minister burned a book”. These murders get a pass because they were incited! Were they incited to kill innocent people? Maybe the postmodern world has allowed this by excusing the riots following the publication of the Danish Cartoons instead of punishing those who destroyed property and hurt individuals.
Why do civilized people continue to give these people a pass? Why do we not require their governments to punish them or God help us, we may use our power in the world? MAybe we are looking in the wrong place of a scape goat in this incident.
Thanks for telling me that James, to be honest I have never heard of pastor terry before today and usually don’t spend much time focused on such idiots, can you balme me? I looked it up online now. I’m not really aware of that particular law or law in general, so if you have a link I would love to see it, however the incident you described about inciting violence was against a specific individual. A rapist. So its not really the same if no name was mentioned. No actual speech was directed at causing any specific violence so I’m still not sure it hold water. The only sources I can seem to find say it does not.
Randy, I agree. I was pretty uneasy with the talk going around about that cartoon and taking away cartoonist rights. I saw a movie from Iran the other day that was talking about the evil satans from the west and how we don’t wear the hajib. So should all western women wrap themselves in sheets so we don’t offend the muslims? We can’t appease these individuals. Even if we tried.
We are a sovereign nation. Our laws are derived from the Constitution(well, some laws are while others derive from self-serving imbeciles, but that’s another topic). It makes no matter what someone in another country says about actions that our citizens engage in, within U.S. borders.
The burning itself is nothing more than the burning of a book. The fact that it was purposely the Koran is what makes it a freedom of speech issue. Our Constitution guarantees us that right. No other nation, or peoples within other nations, have any business telling our citizens what they can, or cannot do. The fact that muslims in other nations are upset about it, even to the point of killing non-muslims, should show, more than anything, their own disassociation from reality. That is what should be the point of every post here, on other blogs, and every news story in the country on this topic.
I don’t agree with the actions of Pastor Jones. Indeed, he seems to be just as unhinged as the muslim rioters and murderers around the globe who get up in arms over even a simple cartoon. However, I stand behind his right to engage in such acts.
If we, as a country, acquiesce to the demands of muslims around the world, and arrest and try Pastor Jones for his act of burning the Koran, and charge him with crimes committed because of it, then we will have willingly given up ownership of our own rights to free speech and religious freedom.
A quote for those who would wish to acquiesce to muslim demands regarding Pastor Jones:
@Zac: Jones is a jackass! The issue here is that free people have rights. Yes, they are limited. None of us here who hate what Jones did have the right to kill him.
We would be discussing a different issue if those jerks had killed Jones instead of innocent people. We as a country are involved in a military action in Libya because we are supposedly trying to conserve lives. Military action is very costly and sometimes not effective when the effort is not persued to complete the objective.
Wouldn’t it be much better use of our funds to use our political powers to show that we do not support certain behavior in a population and we are willing to enlist the assistance of others to encourage that population to embrace behavior that is acceptable to the rest of the world? They use to know we carried a big stick and we walked and talked softly. All of this radical behavior started when the radical world realized the US was not willing to use their sticks in our bag. Reagan used our sticks to back up his talk. He destroyed the whole USSR. Unfortunately, no one followed up with a world wide strategy to eliminate evil.
I love it when we hear we cannot profile muslims and thus need to strip search grandma at the airport attacking Constitutionally protected free speech of an American citzen becasue Islamist terrorist attack and kill people thousands of miles away. The terrorist Islamist are using this as an excuse to kill which has people wringing their hands. They would not kill innocent people if not provoked in this way. I guess I missed the koran burning before each of the Islamist terror murders over the last 50 years. Yes, I bet the Jewish Olympic team burned Korans in Germany which got them all wee weed up. And the hijacking and murder on airplanes was because of the Koran burners the media must have failed to report. EXCUSE ME. Islamist have not needed a reason for attacking infidels since the damn book was written. I hate it when evil uses the dupes to wring their hands as if it was something else that mad me crazy. Evil people do evil things and those who are fanatics about anything, be it the Japaneses soldiers in WWII on Iwo Jima or the other islands or their kamikaze pilots willing to kill entire ships in suicide missions or the Islamist who flew planes into buildings. Why did Stalin kill millions of people? Did someone make him read the bible which set him off? Hitler used a variety of excuses to do what he wanted to do which was kill Jews. Bet that was the Pope’s fault for not doing more to save people from Hitler when entire countries such as the USA did virtually nothing with all their power to stop Hitler from killing Jews. But why is it not simply there is no excuse for any evil act. When we had riots in our cities, the left went about searching for reasons for the riots. Why not the peole rioting have no morals and what they are doing is evil and no excuse should even be sought? Why can’t we say there is no reason for doing anything except to protect yourself from evil. People screamed at Bush when everyone on the planet thought Iraq had WMD and he would have been insane not to try to hit them after 9/11 before another Islamist was put into the country by the nut to kill Americans?
What they do understand is pain. Hitler got it finally. So did the Japanese after some firebombing and atom bombs. Evil does not stop with UN sanctions which many get around for money or influence or those very nasty wrist slaps the UN is famous for. Barry threats do not get much attention and neither did his apology tour where he trashed the US history as if we were the USSR. We do not seem to be making any headway with Islam is a relgion of peace unless I am missing something. Please enlighten me.
I wouldn’t be surprised, however, if the Taliban and anti-American sympathizers propagandized the event to stir up those who are in a perpetual state of thin-skinned rage. I doubt many of the uneducated masses understand the president of the U.S. doesn’t have the authority to simply arrest and stop Terry Jones; nor do they likely receive the news that Obama condemns the burning, or that the U.S. is in the business of mosque-funding and building, or the proportionality of how many actually showed up to participate in the burning vs. how many condemn the act. So they lash out at people serving the UN.
@Nan G #1:
bin Laden and the Taliban are not the same as Islam. They are not the whole representative of the entire faith.
@David Stanley #9: I like it. I wouldn’t be surprised if Koran burnings and desecration takes place regularly all over the world. But with no media to cover it and firebrand imams and Islamists to stir up the masses, the religion of perpetual rage is silent. Like the Danish cartoons that were published before they were propagandized for political objectives.
@Nan G #15:
More specifically, Islamist fundamentalists. Yes, predictable response. Which is why Jones is an ass and I +1 Mata’s earlier opening remark about what to do with Jones.
Should Islamists have more self-control and anger-management than they command? Of course. But knowing that they don’t, knowing that we are fighting insurgencies and battling for hearts and minds in the Islamic world with fellow citizens out on the frontlines, Jones doesn’t have to risk suffering the consequences of his self-serving irresponsibilities. He provides propaganda fodder for the Zawahiris of the world.
The issue of abrogation:
And:
@chillguy33 #18:
Petraeus thanks you for it.
Zawahiri and bin Laden also can’t thank you enough, since they have failed to convince majority Muslims to answer the call to jihad.
@Zac #24:
Yup. And for those Muslims who don’t tow the line of political Islam/radical fundamentalists:
@retire05 #26:
Most “moderate” Muslims are not political activists. And it’s sometimes the case that those who we do wish would speak out, do speak out with insufficient fanfare and coverage.
Nope. I expect Christians to be “better than that”.
The Bible, btw, does not hold the same equivalence of veneration for Christians as the Koran does for Muslims. For Christians, the Holy Bible is not the embodiment of God on earth. That distinction belongs to Christ. For Muslims, it’s their Koran. The living word of God, Himself.
@Nan G #27:
It’s because of “moderates” standing up that so many of them have been slaughtered by their extremist brethren.
I’ve met some Muslims who consider themselves devout; but I’ve never known them to hunt after ex-Muslims for extermination; nor have any ever tried to convert me to their faith. In contrast, I’ve often been invited to Bible studies and preached to by Christians. But let’s not let that ruin the stereotyped caricature of Muslims.
When the vast majority of the 1.5 billion riot over Danish cartoons, celebrate 9/11, lead violent protests over Koran-burnings, then get back to me. In similar fashion, the “huge” demonstrations by the anti-war movement over Iraq and Vietnam never did represent the voice of the silent majority.
I disagree. Groups like Al Qaeda had to resort to the writings of Qutb and Taymiyah to justify their wanton, indiscriminate violence that also narrowly defines who a true Muslim is.
Um….no. It’s because these are the practitioners of the religion of peace. Sheep for the slaughter from the wolves of violent jihadism.
@retire05 #31:
A number of the customs and cultures have more to do with tribalism loyalties and local traditions than religious fanaticism. They pre-date Islam.
@Greta #34:
About a third of all FBI cases that have apprehended a radicalized Muslim has been on account of Muslims turning in radicalized Muslims.
American-born Muslims are less likely to be radicalized; but those who are do pose a greater danger than non-American RADICAL muslims.
So…the same Muslim governments Zawahiri and bin Laden and the global jihad movement oppose…you think it would have been a good idea to alienate? War with not just Iran and Syria, but Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan? Yemen? Jordan? Turkey? Indonesia? Any and all Muslim countries? Not good enough for the Islamists and not good enough for us but you wish to push them into the loving embrace of the Islamists?
I’m not so sure that you do see who the enemy is.
Profiling would be more efficient than a one-size-fits-all nondiscriminatory procedure.
Yeah, burn the book that the “muslims of peace” also revere. That will get on their good side, alright. As if they aren’t already feeling the “wrath of the American people” these days. I used to think that CAIR and the pc police were overexaggerating the Muslim victimization in this country; but these days, I’m not so sure they don’t have a point.
You want to encourage sympathy for the global jihad movement? Play pawn in the hands of bin Laden and Zawahiri’s desire to pitch us into a clash of civilizations and a war of religions? Keep spouting the anti-Islamic rhetoric that doesn’t discriminate but lumps all under one religious roof.
@Greta #35:
No, but from their vantage point, it’s used to justify American foreign policy, of which the anti-American radical extremists believe does kill innocent people and the persecution of Muslims. Much of the rhetoric in bin Laden/Zawahiri statements has as much to do with politics and foreign policy issues, enveloped in the language of religion. The two are intertwined; but it weren’t Islam, there would be something else replacing it to perpetuate all the conflicts that go on between nations and people.
So….what? Nuke Mecca and Medina? When a slim minority are actually global jihadis, a minority are jihadi sympathizers and apologists, and a sizable minority are radical Islamist fundamentalists, militants, and violent extremists?
@Coldwarrior57 #36:
He has the right, but not the wisdom. It’s throwing gasoline onto a fire, knowing predictable results and being able to say, “Hey….those 20 dead aren’t my fault. I’m not the killer. I’m just making a point.”
What a frickin’ dick. Just as useful an idiot to Islamist propaganda as Code Pink protesting our efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq. Just as dangerous to our soldiers’ lives as RoE.
@Nan G #37:
Absolutely.
@villageview3 #39:
As I mentioned earlier, how the Bible is perceived is different for Christians than how the Koran is revered by Muslims. Burning one hurts all Muslims and enrages the reactionary radicals.
@chillguy33 #43:
I believe that much of the dysfunction that accounts for 3rd world countries would still be present even had Islam never arisen as a religion.
Yes, I’m sure that will show them! Act on your emotions! Show them your rage and intolerance for hatred! It will teach all of us valuable lessons and make the world a better place to live in.
@atti #46:
Yeah, I’m sure CNN wouldn’t carry the story.
@Gregory_Dittman #48:
Bingo.
@Zac #53:
When I heard Jones was going to go through with the Koran burning, with about 35 attending, I had hopes it would pass in obscurity and not be picked up as news-worthy. Well, since the can is off the lid, the story’s worth covering and offering “counter-propaganda” to the one espoused by Islamists. Much like Abu Ghraib, the der Spiegel photos, alleged Koran flushing, etc, etc.
@Zac #55: I agree with Harper that he knew full well what the results would be. He was looking for it to happen in order to prove his point to the world that the Koran is an evil book of the devil.
As mentioned earlier:
@Cann #8:
That’s the finest post I’ve ever read wordsmith!
@Wordsmith:
I second what Zac says, although I’m feeling left out, lol.
Wordsmith, yes very good comment as you always try to keep us into perspective;
there is one part that bother me, AFGHANISTAN is where the war is being ACTED,
NOW THE GENERAL ,warn AMERICA that the troops would be targetted if so would happen,
that ‘s what is not normal to me,
that is a war, there are our militarys to fight the war, those killers are our ennemies,
the military aren’t they on constant alert for any uprising the ennemies would start?
don’t they have their weapon always in readyness of active combats?
we are separated by a long shot, and they are there to finish that war and come back to their loved one ,
and nothing else for our military to do beside finishing the war,
that is what they suppose to do, to be normalizing the reality of all these last years
of total hells for them to have lived and bleed and brain shocking and disability and death.
Would I be right to beleive that they have been put and left there for any other reason than to be able to come back sane and safe? is there a possibility that the leadership want to eliminate our militarys so to replace them by an civil army dedicated to him alone instead of to THOSE WHO HAVE swear their oath to the CONSTITUTION?
Islam murders and riots over the burning of a Koran ? Then how many muslims should we have killed for the 9/11 attack and 3000 dead AMERICANS ?????????
wordsmith, basically what I got out of your [far too] lengthy post is that since burning a Qu’ran is an insult to ALL Muslims, it must not be done, even though our own laws permit it. Basically, what you are offering is policital correct claptrap.
Burning a Bible is equally insulting to Christians, but we do not go on a killing spree when Muslims burn the Bible, or use it for toilet paper. No one was harmed with the release of PissChrist, or the Madonna in camel dung, yet, I am sure if you questioned every Christian in existance, they would tell you that they were insulted by those “works of art” as well as the burning of the Bible by Muslims and using it for toilet paper. And you also claim that the Taliban, and Osama bin Laden, are not representitive of the Islamic faith. You give them a label (fundalmentalists). Yet, you cannot prove that they misrepresent Islam, as the Qu’ran backs them up.
What you have basically done is provide an excuse to those who murdered others due to their perceived insult. How sad. But then, that is the PC stance that most accept, at least those who want to make excuses for others. I, myself, am sick of it.
Your entry is far too lengthy for me to address every point, but the only thing I can think is that you are willing to accept the rules laid out by those who want to conquer the world for their religion. It is time to stop making excuses and realize that those who live in the 7th century will NEVER see peace or harmony nor will they want to grant it to others.
Salmon Rushdie wrote many books of fiction using Islam for a backdrop.
The Satanic Verses was fiction but based on those verses IN THE KORAN where Mohammad admitted he lied in the Koran and also claimed he allowed demons to affect what he wrote in the Koran.
Mohammad admitted to not being able to tell a demon from ”Allah.”
Rushdie’s book merely spread that fact about Mohammad around to folks who otherwise might never known it.
Quite a while after the book was out Iran’s charismatic Ayatollah issued a fatwa so that killing or trying to kill Rushdie was a ticket straight to Islamic Paradise no matter what other wicked things the killer might have done.
A lot of Muslims look at fulfilling a fatwa as a way to go ahead and be bad in life yet still be rewarded with Paradise.
Over 53 people died because various Muslims tried to kill Rushdie.
All collateral damage, as Rushdie was fairly elusive.
Was it Rushdie’s fault?
Should HE be held responsible for those deaths?
The book publishers?
Should we all give up Freedom of the Press so that it can never happen again?
And those Danish cartoons.
They didn’t cause riots.
There were 12 of them, all fairly tame.
All of them were published in Denmark and months went by with no ill effect.
All 12 were published in Egypt and months went by with no ill effect.
BUT then a couple of charismatic imams added 3 more fake cartoons to the mix and went on a tour of Islamic centers with all 15 cartoons.
Only after that did people run rampant.
Over 200 dead from those so-called ”cartoon riots.”
Who is responsible?
The Danish paper?
The Egyptian paper?
The Danish cartoonists?
The fake cartoonists?
The imams?
The rioters?
Should we really curtail our own freedoms, won with the blood of so many?
Or should we address the real problem.
Charismatic Muslim liars who take leadership roles and who desire riots and rage for their own selfish reasons.
THEY should be held accountable, if anyone other than the actual killers.
Nan, thank you. Let the pollyannas eat cupcakes.
@retire05:
Nope. You have the freedom to do as you will. Just because Muslims revere the Koran, doesn’t mean you’re under the same “obligation”. They have no right to demand it of others.
Somewhere between the political correct pt. of view and the right-wing extremist/anti-Islam pt. of view, there should be some middle ground of reason that doesn’t go off the deep end of hyperbole and exaggeration.
Burning Korans achieves nothing. It saddens the ones who do take the koran seriously but who will not resort to violence; it inflames those you are wanting to inflame and incite; and it plays right into the hands of Zawahiri and bin Laden who want to convince the Muslim world that this is a clash of civilizations and they want all Muslims to rise up and answer their clarion call to jihad- forget that they have no authority to issue fatwas at all. Burning Korans simply gives them propaganda fodder (not that they need excuses for fueling anti-American sentiments amongst those who are already resentful and suspicious of us).
I disagree. Again, for those drawing parallels, moral equivalence, hypocrisy between flag/koran/bible-burning, there is a difference.
Flags are revered by American patriots, symbolizing so much; but we still understand that it is also still just a piece of cloth. The Bible carries with it the message of God, but was not written by God. If copies of it are destroyed, abused, written on, defaced, mishandled, or so much as gets a blemish or a page bent, Christians don’t even bat an eyelash (although the way some are carrying on, you’d think they’d want to behave as the Islamists do, in a perpetual state of rage and indignation).
The Koran is different (in the eyes of a devout Muslim at any rate, and not only because he is religiously partisan). The Koran is elevated in a way that is unique to their faith. When a Koran is desecrated, it is not the same as destroying a Christian Bible; it is not the same as bombing a mosque. Sure, for the religion of perpetual rage, you’ll find those thin-skinned who will riot over the most insignificant slight against Islam (insignificant to us). They will find outrage over any little slight making mountains out of molehills (as Nan points out). But who are “they”? “They” are not majority Muslims carrying on in violent protest (aren’t peaceful protests okay, though?).
This isn’t me saying that one book is superior to another. It’s me restating that for Muslims, the Koran is the embodiment of God himself (at least in the original classic Arabic). For Christians, it’s not the Bible but Jesus Christ who is the embodiment of God on earth.
Now for us, any Koran is simply so much paper and ink and Muslim belief should not be imposed upon any of us. If they choose to believe it is the living word of God, fine. But their beliefs and laws should not infringe upon us. That said, it speaks well of us if we treat others the way we wish to be treated- that is, be respectful of our beliefs and we will respect your beliefs. Give respect to get back respect.
Of course, Islamists and Jihadis are anything but tolerant and respectful of our beliefs. But they aren’t the only ones who revere the Koran. Do you follow? I don’t expect agreement here. Just clarity and understanding of the position that I’m taking.
Yes, because Christians are “more mature” than majority Islamists who are in a perpetual state of rage. We are “better than that”.
Christians do protest, and they do so peaceably. (And we should distinguish between those Muslims who also protest peaceably from those who do so with violence).
The Koran does not give them justification for the killing of innocents and the slaughter of other Muslims. As I said before, they had to justify al Qaeda and takfiri violence by referring to the works of Sayyid Qutb and Taymiyyah. The Koran alone does not condone their brutality and many peaceful Muslims have vociferously condemned al Qaeda and jihadi violence as counter to Islam (at least as how they choose to practice their faith).
Labeling those who disagree with you on this topic as merely towing the pc line is a cop out. Think about the merits of my points rather than knee-jerk the anti-pc party line.
I’ve followed Jihad Watch and Spencer, Andrew McCarthy, FA, and all the anti-Islamic rhetoric on conservative blogs for years, now. I’m still the same guy who pieced this together. So dismissing me as just some pc-crap pusher is rather insulting. I’ve simply evolved away from some of the hard-line, anti-Islam rhetoric so prevalent in the conservative sphere. Not all, but some. I’m hardly a fan of Islam (and I’ve been a strong advocate for the American Judeo-Christian traditions and heritage of our nation- I think that’s how Curt first took notice of me).
If you merely think I’m being a Muslim apologist, then yes, my words are wasted on you.
Hey wordsmith, I’m not particularly a fan of islam ether but there is people on these websites calling for genocide or nuking these people, its crazy!. I think that’s what the coward terrorists do, when they kill innocent people that’s exactly what they do. I left this conversation yesterday, its to much for me. But thanks for your input.
Thanks, Zac (and bees and John Galt for your earlier compliments, even as I know we may disagree on points). We should be vigilante about becoming what we profess to hate. Otherwise, we become predictable pawns in the al Qaeda playbook.
We have soldiers fighting alongside Muslim allies against the common threat posed by al Qaeda and affiliates, the Taliban, and violent Islamist militants. They are not our enemies (the ones who are fighting against jihadis and extremists). Should we alienate them?
If all you ever read is anti-Islam opinions and books, is it any wonder when you find validation and reinforcement for your educated prejudices? Those beliefs and opinions only become further entrenched.
Balance it out, once in a while…
@Greta:
I apologise for any inability to categorically refute everything you say that I take exception to (perhaps you should provoke Wordsmith’s attention- he seems more than adequate to the task). I am not dull witted nor am I an inarticulate man but I have neither the patience nor the concentration to even follow your chain of thought as it leaps from one issue to another trying to create a unified theory of evil.
A small sample:
Somehow you manage to tie lethal attacks by Muslim whackjobs to the people who tried to make the Catholic Church as accountable as you want the Muslims to be. The outrage over this situation in the church was always less for the act itself and vastly more for the CHURCH hiding and protecting the priests involved. In my mind, all you have proven is that the Catholics have lost sight of what Christ was teaching and have devolved into a political mockery of what it started out as.
Christ says:
but these are exactly the people bullied by the church IN CHRIST’S NAME for centuries.
The Catholic church has millenia of momentum and a huge political machine to bend the world to its will and long ago, probably as soon as Christ died and a new “leader” took over, politics became increasingly more important and Christ’s message less so.
Yes, I am directly comparing that church and most others to the evil in Islam, with similar scoundrals and degenerates goading “believers” into doing their will. The main reason that we don’t commit those overt acts is due to the culture, not the church. I have no issues with Christ, merely misdeeds of the organizations who claim to have a pipeline direct to him that absolves them of any responsibility.
The fact of the matter about that distasteful preacher is that while there may be no federal laws he broke, there ARE civil limits to our right to free speech– standing up in the middle of a dark theater and screaming “FIRE! FIRE! SOMEONE CALL 911!” and having people die or get injured in the resulting melee will probably get you arrested. Rightfully so.
@ilovebeeswarzone:
You got that right Bees!!! My point in calling him that, exactly. This country has been getting the ol’ affirmative action enema for way too long and its time we found another way to bring willful savages into reality.
All Muslims, rich or poor, who are going to perform jihad should do it now, please. And we know that all Muslims are called by the holy book which was not written by Mohammed because it is continuously self contradictory so it must have been written directly by Allah.
Many muslims are called to Jihad, and they should do it now. Mohammed and Allah command it. The outrages of the infidels drawing cartoons of Mohammed are unbearable and require all Islam to burn them out – burn their females out, and burn their children out; burn their animals out. Mutilate their corpses again and again.
Muslims, do not wait to perform Jihad; you are shirking the duty given you direct from Allah, through Mohammed but also not through Mohammed.
The call to Jihad is NOW, muslims. The crusader is on the front doorstep; he is on the back doorstep, and he is coming down the chimney.
You have no hope else you carry out jihad now.
Allahu Akhbar.
chillguy33. hi, now what make you say that, If I didn’t know you from your other smarts comments,
I would think that you are the one reciting those awfull words, evil words.
but I know It doesn’t come from you, so why bring it up now?
Thanks for the kind request. To answer briefly, I have female grandchildren, and Islam is rapidly encroaching on the civilized world.
We should encourage them to carry out their jihad now; and I know the cartoons of Mohammed and the burning of the book of the sanctimonious has been a horrible outrage. Do it now, muslims.
Thank you.
wordsmith, excuse it anyway you want, but what you are saying is that the Qu’ran holds more value to Muslims than the Bible holds to Christians so that makes the burning of the Qu’ran a more grievous act than the burning of a Bible. Bullshit. Christians hold the Bible with the same reverance as Muslims hold the Qu’ran.
You also say that the Qu’ran does not justify the killing of innocents. I disagree. As the dictates of the Qu’ran shows, there are no innocents if they do not follow Allah. Mohammed justified the killing of innocents because of their refusal to follow his teachings, which he claimed to be the word of God.
I am not going to dispute everything you said (as you are far too windy), but to claim that the violence we see in Islam is only a small portion of the followers of Islam, is propably the dumbest thing you have said. I suggest you read more of Zuhdi Jasser’s writings. Perhaps he can straighten you out.
By your standards, if I hold a gun to your head, and demand all your money, and you refuse to give it to me and I shoot you, you have basically committed murder against yourself as I had no choice but to shoot you in order to get your money but you did have the choice to give it to me.
@retire05:
Nope. Not what I’m saying.
The Quran holds value to Muslims. The Bible does for Christians. But what it represents is different for each group. They are not equivalent, just because they are both books. For Muslims, the Koran is the embodiment of God on earth; for Christians it is not the Bible, but Christ. That’s not “excusing” the bad behavior. It’s explaining that the level of meaning each holds is different for each group.
There is no consensus view even amongst Islamists and jihadis on what the Koran allows and disallows.
Even referencing Lawrence Wright’s The Looming Tower, which is the definitive account of al Qaeda’s geneology, you will find that fundamentalists and members of al Qaeda disagreed with Zawahiri and bin Laden on what is permissible under Islam; on who they could and could not kill. There was disagreement and argument. And you will find “moderates” and different branches of Islam in disagreement with the salafis, the wahhabis, and jihadism. Their “religion of peace” version is no more invalid than allowing the fundamentalists of “the religion of perpetual rage” define Islam, nor the jihadis.
I got to shake hands with the man 4 years ago. I think even Andrew McCarthy has stated that the troublemakers in Islam are a sizable minority, but a minority, nevertheless.
3,000 rioters do not represent 1.5 billion Muslims all across the globe.
And I think you’d do well to read more Jasser, who considers himself a devout Muslim as well as patriotic American who believes in the Constitution and in the separation of Mosque and State.
Your intolerance and personal animosity toward Islam makes you fail to understand anything I’ve said. You are hearing what you have conditioned yourself to hear.
The killers of the UN workers and fellow Afghans, who had nothing to do with Terry Jones, are directly responsible for the murders.
But shouting fire in a crowded theater and then acting shocked should anyone be trampled to death in the predictable ensuing result is just asinine. We all know that Islamists have an anger management problem. We don’t need the throwing of gasoline on the fire to already be aware of it.
Hey, why not encourage der Spiegel to run all 4,000 photos and video footage just to see what the reaction will be in the Muslim world?
bin Laden and Zawahiri thank you for buying into their clash of civilizations narrative. Perhaps you’ll succeed where they have failed in rallying the Islamic world around their banner and calls to jihad.
@Wordsmith:
There is no consistency because so much of the conflicts has to do with geopolitics and political power and activism than with faithfulness to a religion. One of the things Wright mentions in his book is how so few members of al Qaeda actually have extensive religious training. They are zealots, but “theological amateurs”.
@retire05 #75:
You’re welcome 😉
@retire05 #86:
That’s fine. 😀 Just stick to amen choruses and echo chambers. Be selective in choosing only what you wish to hear. Belittle and be dismissive of those with whom you disagree.
@Wordsmith: Very good series of posts. One of the mistakes we in the west often make is looking at situations through our perspectives. Mohammed sought world domination as his legacy. The Quran allows those who wish to achieve that legacy by murdering those who leave Islam and those who refuse to accept Oslam. Fortunately, there are those who do not subscribe to those portions of the Quran.
I have many Moslem friends in Iraq. Some even fought against the radicals. They were ashamed of the atrocities that were being performed in the name of Islam. Some fought side by side with us. Others tried to stay alive by not participating.
retire05, hi, you came in with a very important WORD WHICH IS “EXCUSE’,
THEY WILL USE ANY EXCUSE TO RAMPAGE UNDER THAT COVER IN ORDER TO KILL SOME NON BELEIVERS, THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE between US and THEM,
they where the same as they are today, no change, no evolution of the mind, no
questionning of what is right or wrong maybe some have detach themself from the group but they still belong and protect their other because it’s family, even their roots are lost within their many procreation along the years of rigid force obediance, they have evolved with a killing instinct that make them a dangerous human to trust for many more generations by the FREE WORLD.
“3,000 rioters do not represent 1.5 billion Muslims all across the globe.”
This was wordsmith’s statement to show to me that the opinions of the rioting Afghans is not the same as the rest of the Muslims all across the globe. You see, according to wordsmith, who knows nothing about me, I am illiterate in the ways of Islam so he intends to educate me.
But it is not just the 3,000 rioters in Afghanistan, it is the 3,000 rioters in Egypt that are now willing to accept the “morality” police of the Muslim Brotherhood, the 3,000 rioters in Palestine, who put AK-47s in the hands of their children teaching them to shout “Death to Israel, Death to America”, it is the 3,000 rioters in Jordan, Syria, Tunisia, and all nations across the Middle East that are willing to be driven to violence due to any perceived insult, be it real, or bogus.
Wordsmith’s excuses are exactly the same excuse that other panderers have used in the past (You don’t understand what it is like to be Black because you are not black, you can’t understand what it is like to be an illegal immigrant from Honduras because you are not Hispanic, yada, yada, yada.) Wordsmith then goes on to say that ObL and Zawahiri thank me as I am part of the problem. This is the same excuse the left has used for a decade. You know, how if there was no Gitmo, there would be no new terrorists because Gitmo creates more terrorists.
Sorry, wordsmith, that dog won’t hunt.
There have been Islamic terrorists since the days of the prophet. And it was not due to anything done by the United States, or even the European nations. Terrorism is a tactic, a method to get your enemy to cave to your demands. Nothing more, nothing less. Did Mohammed Atta organize his band of faithful because someone burned a Qu’ran? Did the Islamists blow up the Marine barracks because of a cartoon?
Here is the bottom line, wordsmith. Terry Jones burned a copy of a Qu’ran on his own property that he had paid for with his own money. It was his to do with as he wished. Do I agree with his actions? No. As I said, I would not burn any book, even Bill Clinton’s fairy tale biography. But do I stand by his right to do it? You betcha. And I am NOT going to make excuses for the cretins that were riled up by a bunch of self-serving Imams in Afghanistan who, after Karzi’s speech that told of Jones’ actions, went on to tell the faithful there that “hundreds” of Qu’rans were burned in the U.S.
I understand that Islam is not just a religion. It is a political, social, religious belief system that encompases every aspect of a Muslim’s life. And I also understand that it is NOT the “religion of peace” that so many want us to believe it is. And Jasser is correct that until there is a reformation of Islam, until the political is separated from the religious, there will be no peace within the faithful.
So you can rant all you want about how buring a Qu’ran is so much more insulting than burning a Bible, but you will remain wrong. It only seems that way because Christians don’ become violent when Bibles are burned. And the Qu’ran is no more the word of God than the Bible is as there are those who believe that Jesus was the human form of God, and the words of Jesus are contained, many times, in the New Testament. If they are not the words of God, then what are they? Nor is the Qu’ran the word of God, as God never spoke to Mohammed. Mohammed never even claimed God spoke to him, but rather the words of God were given to him by an angel.
Nan G, yes you got it right to the point, and you say it better than me too.on 75
No understanding of the finer points of how Islam works leads people to minimize the ”only a few jihadists compared with so many nice Muslims,” when there is a simple and Koranic explanation for this.
The Koran teaches adherents two types of commandments.
One (Fard Ayn) is a personal commandment, like ”you do this,” or ”you never do that.”
The other (Fard Kifayah) is a commandment on the congregation, like ”cough up a person to do this for the group.”
Jihadis come out from the 2nd type of commandment.
That’s also why you have read about people giving their sons to al Qaeda or to the Taliban so as to become suicide bombers.
(One boy was given to the Pakistani Taliban and indoctrinated.
By the age of 14 he was so brainwashed that even when his bomb only blew off his own hand he was still screming to be allowed to die killing the people (and police who guard them) at the Dera Ghazi Khan shrine in Pakistan.
That boy, had he died, would, according to the brainwashing he got and words of the Koran, itself, have made Allah happy with his entire family, maybe entire congregation.)
Nan G, hi, your comment lead me to wonder how dangerous INDOCTRINATION IS, AND HOW DEEP IT CAN GET IN A BRAIN, I say looking at their beleifs and behaviors, that INDOCTRINATION ALTER THE BRAIN FONCTIONS AS DEEP AS TO THE CORE OF THE SPIRIT, call it ying yang, call it positive negative that a normal brain function helping to be rational or accusing, the function that protect a person by giving he the gutts feeling to know some danger or to discard an action he see as not threathening.
they have lost those functions over centurys of INDROCTINATION AND WITTNESS TO MURDER BY THEMSELF OR THEIR OWN BROTHERS, THEY ARE DESENSITHYSED AS DEEP AS THEIR CORE SPIRITS,
And I doubt of a possible recovery, as we have witness at FORT HOOD, A MUSLIM RAISE AS AN AMERICAN REDISCOVER HIS KILLING SPIRIT WHEN HE WAS CONFRONTED TO GO IN AFGHANISTAN TO FIGHT FOR AMERICA, THEN HIS CORE BELEIF REEMERGE TO MAKE HIM KILL OUR OWN
WHICH HAD PROVIDE HIM WITH THEIR FRIENDSHIP,
I wonder if there is scientists researching on this factor, so to to find a counter indoctrination
to provide our own citizens mostly young who get taken by their words of false peace goal toward the whole world. because it seems that when they are in, that means already to far to be help.
@Randy – that there exist some OK muslims is not the subject of this discussion, obviously.
Everybody accepts that there are OK muslims.
Unfortunately that does not restore missing feet, heads, and hands to the victims of islam.
@chillguy33:
Every muslim is DAMAGED by Islam, Chillguy.
They can be OK sure. But they and their children are DAMAGED.
@chillguy33:
Not only that, Chillguy, the more islam the muslim is subjected to, than the more damage that is done to the muslim! Muslims should be SUEING Islam, not propagating it.
@chillguy33: The point was that the OK Muslims are as much a victim of radical Islam as non-Moslems.
@ilovebeeswarzone:
What a great comment, bees.
There are a couple of mental health experts with expertise also in Islam who have weighed in on how the Muslim mind works.
One is ex-Muslim and psychiatrist, Dr. Wafa Sultan.
Her book, A God Who Hates: The Courageous Woman Who Inflamed the Muslim World Speaks Out Against the Evils of Islam, builds from her background as a psychiatrist to explain how especially what we call extremist Islam gets into the minds of youngsters.
It is probably available at your library.
On February 21, 2006, she took part in Al Jazeera’s weekly 45-minute discussion program The Opposite Direction.
She spoke from Los Angeles, arguing with host Faisal al-Qassem and with Ibrahim Al-Khouli, a professor at Al-Azhar University in Cairo (Egypt), about Samuel P. Huntington’s Clash of Civilizations theory.
A six minute composite video of her remarks was subtitled and widely circulated by MEMRI on blogs and through e-mail;
The New York Times estimated that it has been seen at least one million times.
In this video she criticised Muslims for treating non-Muslims differently, and for not recognizing the accomplishments of Jewish and other members of non-Muslim society while using their wealth and technology.
The video was the most discussed video of all time with over 260,000 comments on the video-sharing website YouTube.
The full transcript of the debate which was made public later, also raised many online discussions.
~~~~~~~~
Another writer is Dr. Nancy Kobrin, a psychoanalyst with a Ph.D. in romance and semitic languages, specializing in Aljamía and Old Spanish in Arabic script.
She is an expert on the Minnesota Somali diaspora and a graduate of the Human Terrain System program at Leavenworth Kansas.
Her book is The Banality of Suicide Terrorism: The Naked Truth About the Psychology of Islamic Suicide Bombing.
She is interviewed here.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Starting on this page you can peruse many interviews with others who have some expertise in this same are.
they are killers on a rampage evry time they are called upon, and who call them to action always choose an excuse to blame the AMERICA, and worse of all KARZEI LET THEM GET AWAY WITH IT,