Some of us have observed the homosexual movement from the very beginning. First, all they wanted to do was practice the sexual desires which “God gave them,” so they managed to get sodomy laws abolished. But that was not the end game.
Then they wanted to live with their heads held high, so they wanted to hold Gay Pride Parades. If you have ever been to a gay parade, you know that, it is not just a bunch of homosexuals on floats holding up banners saying, “I’m gay and loving it!” You will see all sorts of simulated sexual acts and men wearing clothing in such a way as to be erotically graphic. It is much more of an “in your face” approach. “This is what we are; deal with it.” But that was not the end game.
Now that gay pride parades are common—at least in some areas—there was the next step. So many male homosexuals had the love of their lives suffering in hospitals, and yet, they had no legal right to see this person, and family members were keeping them separated, and so they had to have civil unions or domestic partnership laws. The hospital scenario was presented again and again, although this was a situation that fewer than 1% of homosexuals had ever dealt with. Many had been to hospitals with ex-lovers dying of AIDS, but the number who had been banned from their “lifetime” partner was minuscule. However, by presenting that rarely occurring scenario, homosexuals gained quite a number of state laws which allowed them to become legally attached with the legal rights that they needed to have. But, that was not the end game.
And now, today, the big push is for marriage rights. Everyone has the right to marry the person that they love, except for gays; and it is so unfair! “It is a fundamental human right to marry the person you love!” they proclaim.
There are churches in every state—many of them headed by gay pastors—who are more than willing to perform a marriage ceremony, and pronounce them married at the end of the ceremony; and gays can tell everyone that they know, “This is my gay marriage partner” and they can demand such recognition from their friends and family. But, you know what is so terrible? The state will not proclaim them married! The federal government will not proclaim them married! Oh, dear, oh dear; this is such a violation of their civil rights! How can they really feel married unless the state or federal government recognizes them as married? Attending their own marriage ceremony in which they are pronounced married? Not good enough. Telling all of their friends and family that they are married? Not good enough. Marriage only counts, for some reason, if the state or federal government certifies them as being married.
But gay marriage is not the end game. No gay will ever tell you the end game, because if they did, you would never support gay marriage.
What gays like is more sexual partners. Whereas, it is very unusual for a heterosexual male to have 100 or more different partners, this is not unusual in the gay community. A study in 1978 said that 75% of gay men had over 100 sexual partners. And since gays make up only about 3% of the population, it is hard to find new gay men to have sex with. What is their approach? Some partially change themselves into women; they don’t go all the way (except for the very nutty ones), but they go far enough so that they can have sex with some straight men.
However, if marriage between gays becomes the law, and the state recognizes homosexual marriages to be legally equivalent to marriages between heterosexuals, then life in America is going to change dramatically. Gay marriage is not the end game; but once gay marriage is made legal, then gays can do a number of things they have been wanting to do.
First, because there are always been animosity among gays against Christians, the Bible will be proclaimed to be hate literature and any pastor who tries to teach portions of the Bible will be taken to court for teaching hatred. They could care less whether or not they win; sue a few small churches, and word will get around fast enough. Defending against such lawsuits is expensive, and few churches can afford to do it. We know this will happen because it already has. If marriage between homosexuals is “legalized” then, this opens up the opportunity to strike back at the church, and if a few congregations get shut down, who cares? These churches are nothing but disseminators of hatred.
However, attacking Christians and the Bible is not the end game; that is simply sport and revenge. The end game is, more homosexual partners. When a man has had 100 sexual partners, that has to be a clue that, having sex, and a lot of sex, is extremely important to the homosexual. If there is a way to expand the franchise, so to speak, that is seen as a great objective.
Sexuality is a complex thing, and homosexuals have found that, if a male is violated at a very early age, sexual gratification can be associated with homosexual behavior. This does not work in all cases, but it works in enough cases to make presenting homosexual behavior in the schools a worthy goal for the homosexual community. There are many schools today that teach, in sex education, that there are 3 types of sexual intercourse, and all 3 of them are equally valid. This is taught to as young an age as they can get away with.
Even today, there are schools where books about homosexual couplings are made a part of the curriculum for grammar school children. “And Tango Makes Three” is a popular book which has crept into the primary schools all over America.
There are many schools where homosexuals have pushed anti-bullying programs which, incidentally, present homosexual couples as normal. These programs are pushed with great enthusiasm, despite the meager evidence of bullying occurring because a child has two daddies. However, essentially to these anti-bullying programs is, a homosexual union is normal thing and a good thing.
Homosexuals know that young children, just reaching puberty, can be carefully navigated into trying homosexual acts. They know that, by using lies or trickery, make up and surgery, that additional males can be tempted into homosexual acts. This does not mean that such young men will be turned into homosexuals; it just means, they can be gotten to experiment, and that is the end-game. More gay experimentation and more gay partners.
Men are men, whether they are predominantly interested in homosexuality or heterosexuality; and, for many men, multiple partners is a desirable thing to them. This helps to explain why, even in “committed” gay relationships, fidelity is almost nonexistent.
This is why homosexuals have become so active in school curriculums, particularly on the grammar school level. This is why homosexuals are so interested in having gay marriage proclaimed as legal and equal to heterosexual marriage.
This is why they want homosexual acts to be presented side-by-side heterosexual acts in sex education.
Where is the best place for gays to encourage more gay behavior, which means more partners? On the grammar school level.
Here is exactly what they want; here is the end game:
(1) Sexual intercourse between males to be presented as exactly the same as sexual intercourse between a male and a female. No judgment. “You like coffee; I like tea; its all the same.” All of the resultant physical problems from anal intercourse will not be taught at any level. If there is any teaching about AIDS, it will be presented as a disease spread among all sexual relationships, and, all you have to do is, use a condom to prevent it. Furthermore, this must be presented to as young a group as possible. Preferably to children who do not even know what sexual relations are.
(2) A homosexual union must be presented as exactly equal to a heterosexual union. I have a few dozen Time-Life books on home repair, and, in more than half of the pictures, women are doing the work; laying brick, lifting up walls, drilling holes—this is what homosexuals want to see in our schools. If there is a book or a movie or an illustration which involves a family, they want to see a homosexual couple represented. From the earliest age possible, they want young 5 and 6 year old boys reading about gay penguins, or 10 year olds doing a math word problem which involves a homosexual couple Just like women construction workers are ubiquitous in my Time-Life books, they want to see homosexual couples ubiquitous in the public school curriculum. And if a school fails to do this, then they will go to court over it. Such a school would be teaching underlying or institutionalize bigotry, and that must be stopped. They cannot take such a school to court today, because gay marriage is not recognized by the state and federal governments. However, once that hurdle is made, then “institutional sexual bigotry” in the schools will be attacked via the legal system.
(3) Young males in particular must be raised in such a way as to think about their sexuality at a very young age; preferably before puberty, which will encourage experimentation. Whether you realize this or not, more homosexual behavior will be the result. Whether it sticks or not, is not important. It is the experimentation that counts. It is that discussion about sexual identify with a trusted adult that counts.
Homosexual marriage is not about love and commitment; anyone can do that, with or without the law. Passing homosexual marriage is really about recruiting more partners, the younger, the better.
These things are being done to a very limited extent at a handful of schools across the United States. However, once gay marriage passes (particularly, if it is done on the federal level), then these things will be pushed in a much more concerted way in our future, through the schools and the courts.
From Conservative Review #166
http://kukis.org/blog/ConservativeReview166.htm
http://kukis.org/blog/ConservativeReview166.pdf
A retired math teacher who spends most of his time exegeting the Old Testament and, once a week, puts out an ezeen.
i will be glad when the discussion finally becomes ” we who are heterosexual cannot possibly know what it is to be gay in the living lives of those who are gay. therefore it is for us to ask and for us to listen.” like those who think the new covenant is a revised old covenant, they think that being gay is being a revised heterosexual.
Jim,
You are very prolific in your writing, yet you only manage to basically keep saying the same things over and over.
You flop from “we’re born that way,” to “you make us that way.” From “I was born gay,” to “my parents made me this way.”
Which is it?
On the issue of Gary saying that all gay people had an agenda – that is NOT WHAT HE SAID.
He said, and I dare to speak for him, that there are elements within the gay community that have an agenda and that wish to expand the debate further than gay marriage. That is all. He did not say that ALL gay people have that agenda. You for some reason, took it personally and even when I try to engage you on a non-emotional level you reply with histrionics, calling yourself a sissy and being very melodramatic.
Come on, no one, least of all myself is accusing you personally of anything. You cannot speak for all gay men, yet you continue to try. You say that you do not recruit kids to be gay. Great, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen, yet you again try to speak for all gay people in saying that we are crazy, over-reacting homophobes.
Try leaving the drama and emotional rhetoric out of it.
Anticrocks — Kukis certainly did say “all” gay men have this nefarious agenda. He specifically entitled his article “the dishonest debate on gay marriage” and laid it at the feet of all gay folks. Don’t get disingenuous on me now because he started to back track, and you have other ideas too.
Then he said we’re all molesting boys. He purposefully, deliberately, maliciously say that we gay guys have a program to rampage through the schools to recruit new gays. And if you can’t see that, I’m sorry; you’re blind.
And now you’re going to argue differently. And claim I’m paranoid, after a ludicrous rant by Kukis, and you’re own semantic games. Oh please. Please. already.
Mr. Kukis said we gay folks are recruiting boys — that’s the way we make new ones. He’s clear. And now you obfuscate to try to save a shred of him. Absurd.
Others argue that it happens between 2 and 5 years old. It’s all over this thread, it’s all over the net, it’s all over science, religion, legislative testimony.
Others of you argue that we just choose to be gay. It’s all over this thread, it’s all over the net, it’s all over science, religion, legislative testimony.
Still others of you come up with unfathomable fantasy in never ending diversity. And you have no conclusion, and you’re all just bumfuddled, but convinced that each of you are correct.
And we argue we’re born this way. And now you doubt my conclusion, by mentioning my essay on what you all believe.
I stick by the last. I was making note of the way that you all think about it – there’s so many friggin’ theories I can barely keep track of them all. I brought them all up. Which is true? Which? Tell me already, so that I might argue that one — and not every friggin’ one you all bring up. Which ever suits you this day; this is good for you all. You are the most confused bunch — all heteros — not just you personally, not just the people on this thread — all of you. It’s bizarre what you all believe. And you will not see the absurd plethora of conflicting crap, but demand yet again that I defend. No, I will not.
And sir, we’ll just disagree on that.
And give up this discussion.
For it’s absurd. Believe what you will, I’m done.
Cheers, good luck in the “culture wars.”
Jim
@Jim Hlavac: You said:
Regard his comment #131 in which he says:
Or his comment #151 where he says:
Or even his comment #188 where he said, emphasis mine:
So get over it, Jim. Gary may not have worded his OP clearly enough for you, but he has clearly attested that he does not think every homosexual man in the United States subscribes to the same agenda he wrote about.
And by the way, you still haven’t answered my questions.
Jim, your emotional attachment to this issue is clear. But you do yourself a great disservice with your constant melodrama. It’s called a debate for a reason, it isn’t supposed to be a contest to see who can be the biggest drama queen (no pun intended).
@playwithfire:
Certainly, there are a myriad of things which gay behavior has in common with alcoholism. At one time, psychiatrists routinely treated gays, some successfully and some not (like recitivism with alcoholism). This was changed, not because there was some new research, but because of the bullying of gay organizations.
Gays are still cured today.
You simply love your sin so much, that everything else takes a back seat to it. Just like an alcoholic.
@feetxxxl:
Yes, I am. Do you believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins and that He is your only way to God?
do you understand that christ’ s love is the standardof the new covenant, and the summation of all new covenant law. to your question….yes.
Nope, there isn’t any agenda by the homosexual community.
/sarcasm off
So we have a gay state senator proposing a bill that, if signed into law by Gov. Jerry Moonbeam Brown would force schools to teach kids as young as 6 years old that homosexuality, bisexuality and even having an operation to be the other sex is normal. These behaviors are on the fringe of our society, not the normal.
I believe this goes to support the OP on this thread and shows that what Gary purports, that same sex marriage is not the end game, merely the foot in the door.
” children as young as 6 years old will be subjected to mandatory lessons about same-sex “marriage,” bisexuality and individuals who choose to undergo sex-change operations’
these are all legal ways of being in this country, remeMber inalienable rights, all men are created equal, that includes gays, lesbiaans, transgenders,etc………..no such thing as seperate but equal(supreme court ruling).
your characterizations mean absolutely nothing.
again……………….. what is presented to children is not about intercourse but about human bonding …………..2 people who are committed to each other out of mutual love, affection, devotion,trust, and respect for a shared committed life together,(the same as with heterosexuals) a reelationship that provides a loving, nurturing home for raising children.
” Certainly, there are a myriad of things which gay behavior has in common with alcoholism”
do please explain what they haVE IN COMMON.
New research out of China (OK, so take it with plenty of salt)
Male mice bred without serotonin lose their preference for females, a report in Nature says.
This is the first time that a neurotransmitter has been shown to play a role in sexual preference in mammals.
The research team first bred male mice whose brains were not receptive to serotonin.
A series of experiments demonstrated that these mice had lost the preference for females shown by unmodified males.
When presented with a choice of partners, they showed no overall preference for either males or females.
When just a male was introduced into the cage, the modified males were far more likely to mount the male and emit a “mating call” normally given off when encountering females than unmodified males were.
Similar results were achieved when a different set of mice were bred.
These lacked the tryptonphan hydroxylase 2 gene, which is needed to produce serotonin.
However, a preference for females could be “restored” by injecting serotonin into the brain!
_____________________
So, Turkey dinners and Hummus are natural sources of high levels of L-tryptonphan.
If eating those don’t make you happy and sleepy, you might be……LOL!
Just sort of interesting.
@feetxxxl: Um I never said that…
it doesnt make any difference the source. what is important is the spirit in their lives and marriages, which is the same as those of heterosexuals.
@feetxxxl: Look, bigfoot (hey, you’re the one who says you have triple extra large feet). It is NOT okay to teach children that young anything that has to do with sex. And how, pray tell do you tell a 5 or 6 year old that is okay to have two daddies without discussing sex??
How do you explain transgender individuals, those who are receiving surgery to become the other gender, without talking about sex?
No, what this bill wants to do is far more than your “touchy-feely” feeble attempt to dress this up as being “fair.” You say that LBGT folks are all legal.
Getting roaring drunk in the privacy of your own home is legal too, should we introduce that to 6 year olds??
It is more than just teaching kids “bonding.” What do you say to the 6 year old boy, when after you tell them it is okay to like other boys, he says, “But I already like boys, Billy is my best friend.” ??
How do you explain the difference without talking about sex?
PLEASE illuminate us all with your psychological development teaching prowess.
I can see the conversation now –
im not interested inyour hypotheticals……………………you can twist them any way you want.
are you trying to tell me everytime the subject of mommy and daddy comes up, the five year olds are imaging 2 adults having intercourse…………….even adults dont do that.
if this is all you have left lets let this discussion come to an end.
@feetxxxl: What’s the matter bigfoot? Don’t have an answer as to how to broach this subject with children without talking about sex?
See the problem with far left libs is that the hypothetical is all you have. Your flowery talk of bonding and touch-feely relationship psychobabble is just that – hypothetical.
According to you, hypothetically Kindergarten kids can grasp that someone can have two daddies or two mommies without thinking about sex.
According to you, hypothetically Kindergarten kids can be told that it is okay for boys to like boys and girls to like girls without having to talk about sex, or attraction.
But in the real world, kids ask questions and you had better be prepared to answer those questions. Opening the can of worms that is homosexual relationships without being ready to explain sex is a dangerous thing.
Most psychologists, myself among them, feel that it is more appropriate to wait until the child asks the questions first, then you answer them honestly, in a language that they can comprehend.
You are evidently in favor of interjecting sex education into the 6 year old mind and try to dress it up with “safe” talk of bonding.
Bullsh*t.
Kindergarten is no place for sex ed, of any kind. And good luck describing two daddies or two mommies or that is okay for boys to like boys and girls to like girls and especially a boy getting surgery to become a girl without speaking of sex in any way, shape, form or manner.
Not only do I have a degree in Psychology, concentrating in Child Development, but I have raised 8 children, so believe me when I tell you that in the real world, it doesn’t work that way, bigfoot.
that’s like saying that if you bring tthe subject about mothers giving birth to babies you are then are going to have to go in detail on the intercourse that caused their conception.
like i said if this is all you got, what’s the point?
@feetxxxl:
Do you believe that Jesus Christ died for you sins and that is it only through Him (not through some set of norms or rules which He or anyone else could have taught) that you are saved. I am talking about faith alone in Christ alone. Have you believed in Jesus Christ?? (again, not in what He taught, not in your interpretation of what He taught, but in the Person of Jesus Christ).
If you don’t quite get this, read the book of John, at least the first 5 or 6 chapters.
i answered yes already. in the future please annotate your understandings with scripture, so we’re not talking about the gospel according to gary.
@feetxxxl:
I am not talking about what you believe that Jesus taught. I am talking about Jesus, the sacrificial lamb. Do you stand upon His righteousness and His work on the cross, which you attain by faith in Him. Not faith in what He taught; not faith in what you think He taught. I am asking you, are you saved eternally, do you have an eternal relationship with God based only upon what Jesus did for you on the cross?
Isa 53:3 He was despised and rejected by people. He was a man of sorrows, familiar with suffering. He was despised like one from whom people turn their faces, and we didn’t consider him to be worth anything.
Isa 53:4 He certainly has taken upon himself our suffering and carried our sorrows, but we thought that God had wounded him, beat him, and punished him.
Isa 53:5 He was wounded for our rebellious acts. He was crushed for our sins. He was punished so that we could have peace, and we received healing from his wounds.
Joh 6:28 “What can we do to perform the works of God?” they asked.
Joh 6:29 Jesus replied, “This is the work of God: that you believe in the One He has sent.”
Who is Jesus, Feetxxxl?
@feetxxxl: bigfoot said:
ROFLMAO!!!
You want to tell kids where babies come from without telling them where babies come from!!!!
You are correct, there is no point in discussing this with you, bigfoot. Go back to your Utopian dreamworld and let the grown ups talk now.
what is it that you dont understand about the word yes?
@feetxxxl: all the stuff which came before. I just want to make certain that you are saved by faith alone in Christ alone….that we are not talking about what you think His teaching is or represents.
One of the commenters said that homosexuality was established at the moment of conception.
That does not appear to be true; the evidence is against it.
It’s some time after the 18th week of gestation, and probably between the 20th and 25th week.
The best layperson’s summary of what we’ve determined over the last 15 years, though it does over-simplify a bit, is the abstract from Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35
It is not possible that homosexuality is set at conception, as anatomical sex is not set at conception. Exposure to cross-sexed hormones in foetu can change the latter.
And lest anyone think that “chromosomes determine sex, XY=male, XX=female”…
PATIENTS: A 46,XY mother who developed as a normal woman underwent spontaneous puberty, reached menarche, menstruated regularly, experienced two unassisted pregnancies, and gave birth to a 46,XY daughter with complete gonadal dysgenesis. — J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2008 Jan;93(1):182-9
There’s also the problem that 1 in 300 males don’t have 46XY chromosomes. And that chromosomes can change from a variety of medical conditions., and even from bone marrow transplants. It takes about seven years for the DNA in the majority of a bone marrow transplant receiver to change to that of the donor, but their sex is unaffected. A woman who has ovaries before the transplant will still have them afterwards, even if they have 46XY chromosomes in them. See Bone marrow-derived cells from male donors can compose endometrial glands in female transplant recipients by Ikoma et al in Am J Obstet Gynecol. 2009 Dec;201(6):608.e1-8
As for shape of genitalia at birth – in addition to those Intersexed people with “ambiguous genitalia” which at least is constant, those with 5Alpha-Reductase-2 Deficiency or 17Beta-Hydroxysteroid-Dehydrogenase-3 Deficiency change sex after birth, from F to M. Partial 3Beta-Hydroxysteroid-Dehydrogenase Deficiency (and some rarer conditions) can cause late-onset feminisation, from M to F.
Gender Identity and Sexual Orientation are different matters, and stay constant no matter what happens. Consequently, 5ARD, 17BHDD, and 3BHDD can all either cause or cure transsexuality. Usually the 5ARD and 17BHDD changes happen in the late teens, before sexual activitity. 3BHDD can happen much later in life, which causes legal complications regarding marriages in jurisdictions where same-sex marriage is forbidden. All of these syndromes also pose theological conundra at least as great as the Heliocentric vs Geocentric controversy.
They also pose practical problems regarding sex education at school: how does one explain to a 5 year old why his genitalia was reconstructed? How does he deal with other children in the locker room at age 8? How does he explain that his Daddy turned into a girl?
And how do you explain to a 7 year old child why some religious people consider him to be homosexual by definition, part of the “Gay Agenda”, a freak, a pervert, a paedophile, and in extreme cases “spawn of the devil” and a “minion of satan” just because he’s born Intersexed? How do you explain that there are people who genuinely believe that it’s God’s Holy Will that they kill him because according to their religion he’s not human but a threat to all humanity? That they’re afraid that God’s Wrath will fall on them unless they make the attempt?
You have to explain to the whole class that Intersex conditions exist, just as you have to explain about the Downes syndrome kids, the paraplegics, the epileptics, the blind. This can cause real problems with some religious groups though.
@feetxxxl:
Since I do not find the words “new covenant of love” in the Bible, what I am asking you to do is to say something like, “I believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins.” Or, “I placed my faith in the Person of Jesus Christ.” I just want to clearly and unequivocally confirm what you believe about the Person of Jesus Christ, apart from what you believe that He taught about love and covenants.
@Gary Kukis:
this is what i believe:
col!: 15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
21 Once we were alienated from God and were enemies in our minds because of[g] our evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled us by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if we continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
bottomline: i believ in the supremacy of christ, his love and what he did on the cross over all things.
god is love. 1john
jesus is god.
@Zoe Brain: Thank you for the studies you cited. And you seemed to be a voice of reason in this heated discussion. Then you said:
I am not aware of any modern day lynchings or killings of intersexed children. While in distant history, that may well have been the case, it is not what goes on today. At least not in the United States.
No one here is saying that homosexual children, intersexed children or gender confused children are a “threat to all humanity.”
@Zoe Brain:
what makes a person gay is a rabbit trail that leads to nothing. just as procreation is not as important as who can provide a loving nurturing home for raising children which has been shown by homosexual married couples who have opened their homes for foster care and adoption to abaNDONED , REJECTED CHILDREN FROM HETEROSEXUAL UNIONS.
whatis important is what spirit is in the lives and marriages of gay believers. the lives and marriages of gay believers are filled with the fruit of the spirit of galations 5, and they live out the fullness of god’s love, in the same way as those of heterosexual believers and as heterosexual believers do.
and if you were as concerned about false witness over your belief systems, our belief systems being centered on each of us” i believe this” ” i dont believe that” you would know this. physicalities count for nothing, that is an old covenant understanding. ” he could turn these stones into sons of abraham”
is the not the fruit of the spirit of christ different from that of powers and principalities, the things christ told us to battle against.
the fruit of the spirit: love, joy, peace, kindness, patience,goodness, gentleness, self-control, faithfulness.
being gay does not come against these.
“that which is not against us is for us” mark 9
where the spirit and fruit of the spirit rests is what is of god.
Romans 8:14
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
do any of you even know personnally know a gay believer so that you could vouch for their heart? have any of you made a 1john1 witness, a witness that 1john1 calls all believers to, ” that which we have heard, which we have looked at, which we have seen with our eyes and our hands have touched” of gay believers in fellowship of the oneness of christ of walking in the light, as peter did at the house of cornelius, acts 10.
bottom line zoe: all your characterizations are lies.
” and if you were as concerned about false witness over your belief systems, our belief systems being centered on each of us” i believe this” ” i dont believe that” you would know this. physicalities count for nothing, that is an old covenant understanding. ” he could turn these stones into sons of abraham”
our belief systems remain centered on us until they are transformed into faith in christ. faith in christ, his love, his spirit which lives in each believer, trusting in the one of his spirit with all over all things(all things being created thru him). the transformation of belief into faith makes us christ centered.
@feetxxxl: Zoe cited solid scientific studies and, admittedly went off the deep end with the “threat to all humanity” comment. But to call Zoe a liar is harsh.
Give Zoe a chance to explain the comment #333 before you jump to conclusions bigfoot.
@Zoe Brain:
zoe would you base your theology on science…………today’s scientific truths being tomorrow’s refutations or on the spirit of christ which is eternal.
“And how do you explain to a 7 year old child why some religious people consider him to be homosexual by definition, part of the “Gay Agenda”, a freak, a pervert, a paedophile, and in extreme cases “spawn of the devil” and a “minion of satan” just because he’s born Intersexed? How do you explain that there are people who genuinely believe that it’s God’s Holy Will that they kill him because according to their religion he’s not human but a threat to all humanity? That they’re afraid that God’s Wrath will fall on them unless they make the attempt?”
these are the characterizations that i was referring to.
according to scripture physicalities account for nothing ………….spirit accounts for everything.
again belief systems are centered on the believer……………..what is of christ is centered on christ. of what spirit are those things that you mentioned…………….fear loathing digust. scripture says god “did not give us a spirit of fear”
there is no love that loves god that does not also love ones brother at the same time(love one another as i have loved you)1john4:20
you cannot do the first commandment(love god) unless you are doing the 2nd(love self and neighbor) also.
again i was speaking to his characterizaaTIONS not to him personally, surely you can see the difference.
@gary kukis:
that is why i asked you to annotate with scripture so that our dicussion would remain centered on the gospel, which you are not doing yet.
feetxxxl – A number of issues.
First, to see how Intersexed children are treated in the USA – treatment that results in the deaths of many – please read Part 1 and Part 2 of a long article on the subject.
As for adults – those known to be Intersexed have 17 times the average rate of being homicide victims in the USA. (Figures from the National Coalition Against Violence). However the majority of these are Black Intersexed Women, the risk to myself or my son is only about 5 times, comparable to that for Black or Latino Gang members. In fact, it’s less than that, as I live in Australia.
The Catholic argument against Homosexuality has been that it is against Natural Law. Why is it against Natural Law? Because it causes confusion between the two God-ordained sexes, and anything which does that is dangerous to humanity’s survival. There is a Human ecology, just as there is a Global ecology, and this must be protected against such threats to the Natural Order. Anything that confuses the sexes is dangerous, and must be legally suppressed. Well-intentioned laws granting or maintaining existing human rights for anyone who confuses the sexes are thus dangerous – and so presumably should be opposed.
— ADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI TO THE MEMBERS OF THE ROMAN CURIA FOR THE TRADITIONAL EXCHANGE OF CHRISTMAS GREETINGS 2008
— — ADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS POPE BENEDICT XVI TO THE MEMBERS OF THE DIPLOMATIC CORPS FOR THE TRADITIONAL EXCHANGE OF NEW YEAR GREETINGS 2010
Source – Vatican website.
Calls by OII – Organisation Intersex International – to the Vatican to clarify the issue, to remove the clear implication in the original language that Intersexed people are “threats to the human ecology” – Vermin by any other name – have resulted in replies that the language says what it says.
As the result of the Holy Father’s words, the American Catholic Bishops officially opposed legislation granting human rights to Intersexed people in a letter to Congress, dated May 19 2010.
While Catholics are a minority in the USA, and many of the laity take what the Vatican says with a grain of salt… they are still a substantial fraction of practising Christians. So many that there are some dangerous nutcases – the kind that kill abortionists, and their support network.
More dangerous are some Dominionists, who have openly called for us to be exterminated. A tiny minority, but very vocal. The Exclusive Brethren (an offshoot of the Plymouth Brethren) in Tasmania called for us to be legally classed as non-human in an infamous political advertisement. They later apologised after a public outcry, and withdrew the advert.
The case Wilma Wood vs CG studios (63 Fair Empl.Prac.Cas. (BNA) 677, 44 Empl. Prac. Dec. P 37,314) declared that as we were neither men nor women, we were not “natural persons” using the dictionary definition favoured by the SCOTUS, so had no standing before the court.
I must be careful to state that these are emphatically not Mainstream views. While not as isolated as the Westboro Baptists, they can legitimately be called “fringe”. OTOH Section 26 of the now-defunct “Kill the Gays”: bill in Uganda, supported by various extremist US Christian groups, defined us as being “habitually gay” from birth, so subject to the death penalty.
Not on this site, no. Other sites discuss whether we are Nephilim – spawn of demons, or actual fallen angels. They also discuss UFOs and the like too of course.
Oh I should add something very important! A network of mainly Anglican churches quietly spirited out all the Intersexed Orphans from Uganda about 12 months ago, when it looked like this bill would pass. Most Intersexed babies in Uganda are abandoned at birth. So while some US Christian groups advocated their extermination, other Christian groups took action to ensure their safety.
i keep telling you god did not give us a spirit of fear………………….so why are you so invested in fear to the point of almost to the point of fear mongering. i recommend you read the history of christianity volume 1 and 2 by gonzalez. if you did you would know that one the biggest potrtayers of acts against humanity has been the same church who is cooking up the ideas you keep espousing. what is more frustrating is their wide expansive comments are based not on a scintilla of fact and based on legalities that are totally unscriptural. i keep telling you that spirit is everything and physicalities are nothing. choices of erogenous zones are nothing. that issues of sexuality might becoming more confusing are nothing, because again the spirit of life will win out. why would you put so much emphasis on social issues when it is christ’s love from who we receive and are led to life and is life itself that is important.
if you want to make any case explain how anything you have fears about comes against the love of christ (love one another as i have loved you.) christ doesnt try to protect us from life, his promise is that he will be with us as we process it.
@feetxxxl:
Excellent. I am glad to hear that my disagreement here is with a believer in Jesus Christ.
I appreciate the clarity of your response.
So, do you believe that the Bible is the Word of God?
@feetxxxl:
Of course it is, particularly if it is a result of abuse, early sexual contact, and choice. And I certainly do not deny the genetic predisposition in a homosexual any more than I deny it in a drug addict or an alcoholic. It is all about, it feels good, it feels right, so let’s do it. To hell with everything else.
@feetxxxl:
Another example of a dishonest argument, of which gays and liberals are quite fond. Might be a genetic basis for that, I don’t know. It is extremely difficult to adopt a child today, because there are so few of them. How many orphanages are in your city? Go to the yellow pages and look up orphanage.
@feetxxxl:
So, you don’t mind quoting Paul from Galatians, and putting your little spin on it; but I am certain that you don’t care for what he wrote in Romans 1.
Here might be a big difference between you and I. When I commit a sin, I know it’s a sin, I don’t mind owning up to the sin before God; and I don’t try to rationalize it to everyone I know. I have a sin nature, like everyone else here; I commits sins like everyone else here, and I have moral weaknesses like everyone else here. I don’t blame God when I commit the sin; and I don’t rationalize this sin before God, saying, “You made me this way.” I know it is foolish to blame God for choices I make.
So, at least before God, why lie about it? Why twist and pervert His Word? Name your sin to God when you have a homosexual encounter, and God will forgive that sin (1John1:9). After being restored to fellowship, move on from there.
@feetxxxl:
I guess I must have missed this float at the last Gay Pride Parade.
[sorry, Bigfoot, I couldn’t resist that one]
@feetxxxl:
Let me lay out the spiritual mechanics to become Christ-centered.
Obviously, it begins by faith in Jesus Christ, which you and I have both expressed; and this makes us saved forever (John 3:16, 18, 36). This gives us a position in Christ (Rom.16:7 1Cor.1:2).
All believers are given the Holy Spirit (1Cor.2:12 12:13), but we quench or grieve the Spirit (1Thess.5:19 Eph.4:30). We are restored to fellowship with God by naming our sins to God (1John1:9).
But, the next is spiritual growth, which is where a lot of Christians, gay and straight alike, fail. We need to grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ (2Peter3:18). That involves hearing properly prepared pastors teach the Word of God (portions of which we will all dislike, because it exposes our faults and our faulty thinking); and we have to apply faith to this teaching–that is, we have to believe it (Heb.10:38 11:6).
What we do not do is twist Scripture so that it makes the sins we really like to commit okay. If we refuse to recognize our sins, at least before God, then we cannot grow. That is because we cannot get back into fellowship with God because we refuse to name our sins to Him.
Now, I have laid out the basics of the Christian life, which very few pastors are able to do. I have given you the exact mechanics of the basics of the Christian life. At “the List” on my website, I can recommend dozens of pastor-teachers who, if you are out of their geographical area, can provide you with teaching for free. None of the ones I list will ever ask you for a dime.
If you are in a church right now, then it is obviously the wrong church because (1) God’s love does not mean that the sins you really really really like to do are okay and (2) up until this point in time, you did not know how to get in and out of fellowship. If you go to a church for longer than 2 weeks, and you are not taught the mechanics of getting in and out of fellowship, then you are in the wrong church.
claiming a different gender is lying and demonic, please ask God to cast the devil out of him
See what I mean?
@feetxxxl:
I would not base my Theology on Science, no. But I certainly wouldn’t base my Science on Theology. Eppur si muove.
—Pope John Paul II, L’Osservatore Romano N. 44 (1264) – November 4, 1992
I should mention that the current Pope’s views differ from his predecessor’s here:
— February 15, 1990, speech at La Sapienza University
gary if you think homosexuality is a sin then all you have to do is explain how being gay comes against the fruit of the spirit of christ and christ’s love(love one another as i have loved you) as directed by the 2nd commandment (love neighbor. romans and galatians say that this is the summation of all new covenant law.
your knowledge of your sin is based on your knowledge of the law. well christ’s love is the summation of that law.
his love being the fulfillment of the law, ……….the completion of the purpose of the law.
@feetxxxl:
Gee, talk about skipping out on context!
The ”fruits of God’s Spirit” and the ”works of the flesh” are but a few verses apart in Galations, sir.
Read them BOTH.
Now, know this: in Greek there are four words all translated as ”love,” in English.
Eros (erotic love, sexual love)
Philia (brotherly love)
Storge (familial love; literally ‘around the hearth’)
and
Agape (love based on shared principles)
Agape love is what Jesus recommends to his listeners.
Even Agape Love is never used in the Bible as an excuse to cover over (or overlook) one of the works of the flesh, such as homosexuality.
i have spoken of nothing but christs love. are you saying that among heterosexual believers there is no agape in their eros, in their philia, that they engage in these areas vacillating between eros to agape, or from philia to agape. then please explain ” no greater love has any man than to lay down his life for his friends”
in christ our agape is in our philia and agape is in our eros. and in marital love our pardner is also our brother or sister in christ and our neighbor as in love your neighbor as yourself.