
Interesting to watch the changes coming in the middle east and to think….President Bush was behind much of this.
We have seen our vulnerability – and we have seen its deepest source. For as long as whole regions of the world simmer in resentment and tyranny – prone to ideologies that feed hatred and excuse murder – violence will gather, and multiply in destructive power, and cross the most defended borders, and raise a mortal threat. There is only one force of history that can break the reign of hatred and resentment, and expose the pretensions of tyrants, and reward the hopes of the decent and tolerant, and that is the force of human freedom.
We are led, by events and common sense, to one conclusion: The survival of liberty in our land increasingly depends on the success of liberty in other lands. The best hope for peace in our world is the expansion of freedom in all the world.
So it is the policy of the United States to seek and support the growth of democratic movements and institutions in every nation and culture, with the ultimate goal of ending tyranny in our world.
– President George W. Bush (Second Inaugural Address)
Egyptian President Mubarek’s days are numbered it appears, under strong pressure from the Egyptian people and the U.S. to make an orderly transition to democracy.
The Bush Doctrine….that doctrine which was his justification for toppling the Taliban and Saddam. It wasn’t enough to destroy al-Qaeda and the Iraqi WMD’s but to turn those countries into strong democracies so that they could be a beacon for the rest of the middle east.
“Are the peoples of the Middle East somehow beyond the reach of liberty? Are millions of men and women and children condemned by history or culture to live in despotism? Are they alone never to know freedom and never even to have a choice in the matter?”
Both Iraq and Afghanistan have had free elections and are on their way to democracy, albeit slowly and with a few bumps in the road….as our country had. But look towards Egypt, Tunisia, Jordan, Yemen….
Can you tell me that President Bush’s doctrine didn’t play any part in moving towards this point? The same doctrine that was sneered at by the left as unrealistic and naive.
The fragile balance of race and religion, managed by rulers of Mesopotamia for centuries by repression, has been destroyed. The invaders did this in the name of democracy, a concept unaccepted to date in the Arab world and one that is totally unrealistic for Iraq.
Totally unrealistic that human beings would want to live free?
Well maybe it wasn’t until Obama gave his speech that the Middle East then decided that “hey…maybe freedom isn’t unrealistic!”
Yeaaaaah.

See author page
Elliot Abrams in WaPo:
To your lame stream media. Your precedent is won and dung. Can you guys ever come back from that gawd awful borrowing? The free world is finished. Supposed leaders ?
I think it’s a little unfair to blame Bush entirely for the disaster unfolding in Egypt.
Radical islam taking control of Egypt through the popular will of the people; ah, the benefits of democracy.
Democracy – an end in itself according to Bush.
Bush really had no idea, did he?
He thought everyone in the world thinks just like we do and wants just what we want.
A spectacularly ignorant and very dangerous worldview for someone in such a position of power.
So, if a society comprised of 75% homicidal axe wielding maniacs voted to create a brand new country and constitution in which axe murder is legal, then we should immediately endorse and recognize that constution as right and proper, because it was created out of a democratic process?
A democratic process in a society dominated by islam will inevitably be used to implement shariah – a truly barbaric and horrifying theocratic system of laws.
And we saw just this happen both in Iraq and also Afghanistan, where shariah law is enshrined in both constitutions … with much slaughter of kuffar(just ask the few remaining Christians left alive in Iraq), stonings and amputations following.
The democratic process is only “good” if it allows a system of government which is good.
Islamic societies do not see the world as we see it but rather through a primitive tribal and honor system.
They do not want what we want.
The democratic process in such societies will be used to implement islamic theocracies and to destroy the democratic process.
Ironic, no?
And now Israel will have a new enemy in Egypt on its southern border. Tiny little Israel is now virtually surrounded by mohammedans baying for Jewish blood.
The Egyptian people are already talking of their hatred for Israel and the U.S.A. and of war with Israel, if you watch and listen to the street interviews.
But it is the will of the Egyptian people and therefore right and good and above all, democratic.
The explosion in Egypt was inevitable, as is the threat of islamofacism. Iraq and Iran are the only two countries in the region with enough secular history (being iradicated in Iran sadly) to have a chance of becoming a modern repulbic (true democracy isn’t workable anywhere). Bush’s gamble in Iraq offers the only alternate future for thinking people in other muslim countries. I doubt it holds sway against the murderous thugs in Egypt, but even a long shot is still a shot.
Frankly, I think we should develop our own fuel soureces and let them kill as many of their own kind as possible.
the advance of islamic powers was underestimated these last years enough to see our AMERICA with their forces having sympatethic ears in the GOVERNMENT at this time,even the GOVERNMENT leaving the border WIDE OPEN for them to use those channels to get in unseen for a time , but there at work on educating our young to join in their forces, and this is happening now, and we clearly see the attitude of
leader granting that force more path way to the detriment of the citizens of this country and what they beleive in, all on the name of FREEDOM and TOLERANCE, but advancing their goals that are unstopeble
at this time because hey are being FAVORED AND ADMIRED on the back of our PATRIOTS which have
SPILL THEIR BLOOD STILL ARE AND diying since the BIRTH OF AMERICA for the cause of FREEDOM,
THE FORCES of hate, have and still use the part they find weak in our quest to grant the WORLD
with our FREEDOM to live under benefict rules, but we will have to stay alert ,for their ADVANCES is
VERY REAL.
Don’t count Egypt out yet. It seems that the actual working people of the country, now that their jobs have been sut down and the internet disrupted have shown up to oppose the anti government forces. But the MSM is labeling these people as government operatives and yet they cast a veil of Democracy over people who have ties to the Muslim Brotherhood and are violently anti American?? Where is the impartiality?
Caroline Glick from the Jerusalem Post pretty much sums up the situation: “The facts don’t change because you have pretty girls and boys in the streets demanding freedom.” The Islamists are going to use this “freedom movement” to install yet another theocracy on the border of Israel. The Israel-Egypt Peach Treaty is Doomed (YouTube) Some notable quotes:
The Obama (mal-) administration is totally clueless.
For decades the people who ruled the various Islamic states in Northern Africa and the Middle East have scapegoated little Israel for every failure within their own borders.
If people were out of work…..it was Israel’s fault.
If roads were not good…..it was Israel’s fault.
If many people were poor….it was Israel’s fault.
If they lacked hospitals/doctors…..it was Israel’s fault.
Everything was Israel’s fault.
Apparently, however, the spread of the internet and social media have helped folks realize that they’ve been lied to by their kleptocratic rulers all this time.
It doesn’t mean they don’t still hate Israel.
(You can see posters of Mubarak with a star of David painted on his forehead in these protests.)
But when the excesses of these rulers is plastered all over the web……
A Muslim prince who murdered his GAY servant/lover while in a luxury hotel in London,
A leader’s daughter shown swigging beer and in a bikini on foreign soil,
A looting of their own treasury to the tune of BILLIONs by many leaders,
and so on, and on…..
Eventually the truth sinks in: the suffering of the people is NOT entirely Israel’s fault.
To a large degree their own leaders are keeping them down.
There are tons of Muslims-in-name-only bowing down and looking just like their very-religious counterparts.
That is the best way to survive in an Islamic place.
Sharia demands generational poverty with its prohibition against borrowing with interest.
Sharia demands women in a subservient role, more subservient in some places over others.
Sharia demands respect for your Muslim leaders but hatred toward the unbelievers.
In Egypt, for instance, a man’s chances of finding a wife improve with the size and impressiveness of his ”raisin,” as the bruise on his forehead is called.
One gets a raisin by bowing down for every prayer and very powerfully, hitting one’s head on the rug hard enough to eventually make and keep a bruise.
Islam is a frustrating system for young men.
Because parents do not value a daughter as much as a son, there are some who kill a newborn girl, other girls die in ”honor killings,” before they marry.
Rich men may take 3 full-time and one temporary wife.
So, there is a female shortage.
Men need to be killed off or fight to expand their population base so they can carry away captive women.
We are seeing this happen at the edges of Islam all over the world.
The British just had an admission that 50-to-1 Muslims outnumber others as men who rape non-Muslim girls, trying to turn them into wives and/or prostitutes.
In Egypt the kidnapping, raping, starving, forcibly converting then marrying of Coptic girls is common.
So, what the original topic showed was President Bush having an idea what might work, and maybe Bush even tried to put the money behind encouraging that outcome, BUT there is no direct cause/effect between what Bush hoped would happen and what we are seeing now.
Sorry, but I think other factors weighed in more heavily.
Curt,
“Interesting to watch the changes coming in the middle east and to think….President Bush was behind much of this. ……. Egyptian President Mubarek’s days are numbered it appears, under strong pressure from the Egyptian people and the U.S. to make an orderly transition to democracy.”
It’s obviously impossible to gage the full extent and impact of any simple element, but Bush clearly was a driving, unapologetic influence in fomenting democratic thinking in the Middle East. Even with both resentment, and gratitude of U.S. military presence, there has been a constant “democratic” refrain which has planted seeds for “freedom.” Bush can take credit for initiating that chorus.
The past decade has also seen the Internet explode, and has seen radical expansion in the use of social networks. In the Middle East, this has brought a much needed exposure to balancing concepts of governance from the oppressive royalties and dictatorships.
I agree with you that Mubarak’s day are over. He’d do his country a favour to step down, because it is evident that the longer he remains, the more blood with flow. I may be looking at Egypt through rose coloured glasses, however, my own feelings from what I’ve gleamed personally, is that the crowds representing the majority of the uprising aren’t looking for a replay of the Iranian theocracy in their own country. They’re a strong movement looking for real democracy. The thugs of the Muslim Brotherhood are not what the majority of these demonstrators want to replace Mubarak with, IMHO.
A poll from early Dec. 2010.
Egyptian Muslims were asked:
Is Islam playing a large role in politics a good thing?
95% of those Egyptian Muslims asked said it is better for Islam to play a large role in government.
Is Islam playing a large role in politics a bad thing?
2% of those Egyptian Muslims asked said it is better for Islam to play a small role in government.
Is Islam playing a small role in politics a good thing?
2% of those Egyptian Muslims asked said it is better for Islam to play a small role in government.
Is Islam playing a small role in politics a bad thing?
80% of those Egyptian Muslims asked said it is worse for Islam to play a small role in government.
Also three-quarters (75%) of Muslims in Egypt say they would favor making each of the following the law in their countries:
stoning people who commit adultery,
whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery and
the death penalty for those who leave the Muslim religion.
The whole poll is here.
Still think the Muslim Brotherhood doesn’t stand a chance of taking over Egypt within, say, two election cycles?
I hope you are right Curt.
@Nan G, I wonder if you gave the poll in the USA and said Christian instead of Muslim how different the answers would be? Just wondering your thoughts.
Prayer in school
Religious symbols in public places
God Bless America
One Nation Under God
to name a few…
I’m just wondering if freedom is what the people in the Middle East are really going to get, or are they trading one form of supression for another form of tyranny. It is not in the best interests of Egypt or this country to listen to any advice from Obama or the State Department. Obama and Hillary do not believe in freedom for the great unwashed masses, freedom is only for the ruling class.
With problems in Jordan. Lebanon, Syria and Tunisia all we can do is hope for the best, but expect the worst. Shari’a Law does not offer personal freedom, much less “Life, Liberty and the pursuit Happiness”.
I know the US needs to have Foreign Policies. I beginning , perhaps naively, to wish the United States would have more limited policies with Foreign countries, especially dictatorships and oppressors.
United States can no longer be the “Police” of the World. If emerging leaders for Democracy in Countries around the world want to learn about democracy, let them come to the U.S. to study and bring it home with them. If they and their country want it bad enough, they will fight for it. Like we did.
Do I like the fact that human rights are destroyed or ignored by oppressive regimes and dictators? Of course not. That’s what ‘the people’ have to fight for or fight against…
People of the Middle East have blatant ‘Hatred’ for the West. The leaders of these people for thousands of years have oppressed their own people. Why doesn’t the US wise up and just say screw it if they hate us surely they hate democracy as much because we espouse that as a Nation. To me, it seems like a lost cause. Mexico, Venezuela, North Korea, China, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Palestine, Africa and on and on… all have dictators and oppress people..
Lets get off Foreign Oil and screw the Middle East. Let’s worry about America First. Let’s keep America Safe from foreign and domestic enemies. Period. Let’s keep our nose out of other countries internal governmental problems unless Specifically Asked to do so.
I hear our leaders ‘giving their’ opinions about Egypt, and no one in Egypt is listening anyway. They will wind up with a Regime worse than what they had. Browse this guys website:
this guy is scary and Egyptians ‘should’ be careful what they wish for.’
I know the adage, keep your friends close but keep your enemies closer…
I know I sound like a complete #$##$ &% %%$%% (you fill in the blanks). But, all this is really wearing me down…
Excellent food for thought by Ralph Peters:
I had some very close relationships with many people in Iraq. One of the first signs I saw when I traveled into Iraq in 2003 was “Thank you Mr Bush!” I have a photo somewhere.
President Bush said that all people want the same things. He didn’t get into detail, but I found that to be somewhat true. Everyone I met in Iraq wanted to live without fear. They wanted more for their children (male children, but some wanted more for their female children.) They wanted an opportunity to do better in their lives.
Many were like children in their understanding as to what freedom really was. As a senior officer, I was asked by a couple if I would give them permission to marry. As I stated in other posts at FA, I gave a civics seminar every Sunday at some school. I discussed potential changes in the lives of Iraqis under a representative government. One of the lighter moments was when they asked me how our country could kick a governor out of office and replace him with an actor. I laughed and told them that voters do not always make the best decision, but the decision is theirs to make.
Yes, the think differently, but the basic things they want are nearly the same as what we want. They have difficulty defining what they want since they never experienced them. I still believe that television and the internet will make the difference. It will be the women who will be behind the changes. It likely will occur over a generation and will spread. I do not believe there will be a tolerance for dictators any more.
I think what we see in Jordan where women are allowed to be more westernized is the people wanting more say in how the government is run. There is a high level of trade with Israel in Jordan. I smiled when I saw citrus from Jordan in a Kuwaiti market. The produce is trucked into Jordan where it is packaged as a product of Jordan. Everyone knows where it comes from, but they have deniability.
FAITH, yes You have a good reason to be upset, like many AMERICANS some are just waking up
to realize what problem this AMERICA is in, never tought their votes would lead them to such low
achievment from the leader, we need more of them to wake up and be AMERICANS in their heart and soul not just lips and fingers, hopefully,there is no alternative, stay with us, time will do the healing
when he’s at the right hours at the right day, your words are heard and you make the citizens reflect,
on what to do when it’s time for action
Randy,
I would so love it if you started putting together some reader posts. Your comments relaying your experiences are enjoyable reads.
@Wordsmith: I have tried a few times and I could not makeit work. Will try again this weekend.
#8/NAN G TOO TRUE!! Makes my blood boil… Ungrateful…
What frustrates me is the ‘people’ (in many countries) want freedom, their leaders want to oppress. Their leaders spread Anti-Israel, Anti-American propaganda. These same leaders do not want their people to know how benevolent America truly is for fear they will loose power.
They put down America and Americans constantly as though ‘their way’ is best… see this Muslim’s website:
– this is one scary, crazed dude. And a lot of ‘pro-Muslim” Liberals need to see this guy too. This ‘is’ the Muslim Brother hood…
I didn’t add in my own comment that perhaps America should wise up to all these countries who spread negative propaganda about us. Perhaps we should stop sending hard earned American dollars to these same countries – it’s not ‘making’ them ‘like’ us any better. If they are going to ‘hate’ us then hell, give em’ a good reason to hate us… cut off 80% of the funding and what ever else we give to them – but get nothing but ‘Hate’ (the infidels) in return.
Question: Anyone know what all these Islamics do for a living anyway? Seriously, what exactly do these people do as a “Productive” Islamic “Society”? Do they make anything? Do they run any kinds of Companies? Are any of them Business people? Where do they work? Do they even have an economy (Besides oil?) I never hear anything about how these people get money (on their own to live). I know many Egyptians make about $2.00 a day …. for what? and why is that?
CUT OFF 80% ALL FOREIGN FUNDING. Time for the closing of American Bank Accounts to Foreign Countries. Let some other countries step up to the plates. Our Accounts are rapidly running dry thanks to Obama, Pelosi, Reid, Republicans and Especially Liberals. We have no more money to prop up countries who don’t want to help themselves….
ilovebeeswarzone #17 – Oh, and this ‘One World United’ / ‘One World Currency’ is absolutely not going to work. Only in the minds of the ‘Socialist’ Radicals in this Administration and George Soros The United States should remain a ‘Sovereign’ Nation. Cut off funding to those who ‘hate’ us to our face. Hate us, but love our money?? Are we so Stupid (our Government I mean) ? Once America is gone there is no where else to run to…
Elders:
@Wordsmith: Summing up what you just posted, the dictators in power in these Islamic countries pit their people against the US and Israel because we are wealthy compared to them. This effort draws the attention away from the rule and policies of their own government. Sounds just like a speech last week that blames the rich for the problems here in the US. It seems like the left’s ideology is much closer to that of an Islamic dictator than to the principles of the founders of our country.
I enjoyed this blog post and wanted to share. Thanks to all our past and present members of our military that post with us here at FA. Not only do we benefit from all of you, your families and communities, as well as the world does in a big way!
http://bigpeace.com/psalamander/2011/02/02/what-about-the-egyptian-army/