This is the most important election in memory. Much more hinges on this than who controls the House or Senate.
Democracy itself is at stake.
Democrats are stealing democracy from the voters of this country.
When Catherine Engelbrecht and her friends sat down and started talking politics several years ago, they soon agreed that talking wasn’t enough. They wanted to do more. So when the 2008 election came around, “about 50” of her friends volunteered to work at Houston’s polling places.
“What we saw shocked us,” she said. “There was no one checking IDs, judges would vote for people that asked for help. It was fraud, and we watched like deer in the headlights.”
~~~“Vacant lots had several voters registered on them. An eight-bed halfway house had more than 40 voters registered at its address,” Engelbrecht said. “We then decided to look at who was registering the voters.”
10,000 voting machines burned.
Voting registration compromised
Most of the findings focused on a group called Houston Votes, a voter registration group headed by Steve [Sean] Caddle, who also works for the Service Employees International Union. Among the findings were that only 1,793 of the 25,000 registrations the group submitted appeared to be valid. The other registrations included one of a woman who registered six times in the same day; registrations of non-citizens; so many applications from one Houston Voters collector in one day that it was deemed to be beyond human capability; and 1,597 registrations that named the same person multiple times, often with different signatures.
Chicago (of course, Chicago)
October 26, 2010 (CHICAGO) (WLS) — This year marks the first Illinois election that any registered voter can cast their ballot by mail, no excuses necessary. Even as the deadline for those ballots to be postmarked nears, problems are brewing.
An Illinois county election official is telling the ABC 7 I-Team that thousands — potentially hundreds of thousands — of voters who are expecting a ballot sent to them by mail may be disenfranchised.
Election ’10: The president’s home state gets a pass from the Justice Department on ensuring its soldiers overseas can vote. An administration obsessed with gays in the military doesn’t care about voting rights for GIs.
You can call it a tragedy of errors, a perfect storm of incompetent and uncaring bureaucrats, or you can call it a deliberate attempt to steal what looks to be a close race for both governor and U.S. senator in President Obama’s home state by disenfranchising its servicemen overseas, votes likely to tilt Republican.
But if you’re a con?
Meanwhile, the Chicago Board of Elections hand-delivers ballots to inmates in Cook County Jail. The board doesn’t even wait for the inmates to apply — it brings the applications with the ballots! More than 2,600 inmates have cast ballots — strikingly similar to the 2,600 soldiers who will likely not receive a ballot for Tuesday’s election.
Who is supposed to be monitoring this? Obama’s Department of Injustice.
A Craven County voter says he had a near miss at the polls on Thursday when an electronic voting machine completed his straight-party ticket for the opposite of what he intended.
Sam Laughinghouse of New Bern said he pushed the button to vote Republican in all races, but the voting machine screen displayed a ballot with all Democrats checked. He cleared the screen and tried again with the same result, he said. Then he asked for and received help from election staff.
“They pushed it twice and the same thing happened,” Laughinghouse said. “That was four times in a row. The fifth time they pushed it and the Republicans came up and I voted.”
And Nevada
LAS VEGAS — Some voters in Boulder City complained on Monday that their ballot had been cast before they went to the polls, raising questions about Clark County’s electronic voting machines.
Voter Joyce Ferrara said when they went to vote for Republican Sharron Angle, her Democratic opponent, Sen. Harry Reid’s name was already checked.
Ferrara said she wasn’t alone in her voting experience. She said her husband and several others voting at the same time all had the same thing happen.
A problem with Clark County voting machines. Gee, who might be in charge of maintaining those machines?
Why, that would be SEIU.
Did you know that the SEIU represents the voting machine technicians in Clark County (Las Vegas), Nevada? Is it any surprise, as we noted earlier today, that there was a voting glitch in Clark County, Nevada? The glitch caused Harry Reid’s name to be automatically checked on the ballot before voters had indicated who were they were supporting.
According to Joyce Ferrara who was an eyewitness to this strange ballot ordeal, the problem was widespread, “One person that’s a fluke. Two, that’s strange. But several within a five minute period of time — that’s wrong.”
Not content to allow SEIU to “maintain” the machines, Harry Reid is in wholesale bribery mode:
Two days ago, the Democratic Secretary of State announced that voters can be provided “free food” at “voter turnout events.” Harry Reid has been offering free food and, according to other reports, some Democratic allies such as teachers’ unions are offering gift cards in return for a vote for Reid.
This election is incredibly important. Barack Obama must be stopped before he destroys this country, and Democrats know it. What they are doing is nothing less than the subversion of democracy.
DrJohn has been a health care professional for more than 30 years. In addition to clinical practice he has done extensive research and has published widely with over 70 original articles and abstracts in the peer-reviewed literature. DrJohn is well known in his field and has lectured on every continent except for Antarctica. He has been married to the same wonderful lady for over 30 years and has three kids- two sons, both of whom are attorneys and one daughter on her way into the field of education.
DrJohn was brought up with the concept that one can do well if one is prepared to work hard but nothing in life is guaranteed.
Except for liberals being foolish.
On the Nevada mess, I have relatives there.
One phoned me and said the Dem official in charge says you have to be very careful not to touch anything on the ballot except what you intended to vote for.
Even brushing your hand against a part of it might cause your vote to be changed!
Gee, and I thought some Muslims were oversensitive!
Anyway, their bottom line seems to be that it is the voter’s responsibility to make sure his votes are right.
Michelle Malkin has a rundown on the dem vote fraud. It is eye opening to say the least.
I don’t think that dems understand the ballot box prevents bloodshed. When they corrupt voting, then there is little alternative other than armed struggle.
So, let’s set this straight for everyone. Democrats, who claim to be for the “little guy”, and to uphold “good, moral character”, while claiming conservatives are akin to Nazism, and in the pocket of corporations, cannot let the votes play out honestly. They either engage in, or, by their silence, condone, vote defrauding actions and schemes, all in an effort to put more democrats in office.
They claim to have the better ideas. They claim the conservative ideology will kill everyone from the old to the infantile. They claim to represent the interests of the middle and lower class. They claim moral high ground over every conservative position on every issue.
AND YET,
They blissfully ignore the actions of their compatriots who willfully disenfranchise voters, all in an effort to “win” at the ballot box.
This begs the question; If your ideas are so great, then why do you feel it necessary to rig votes in order to win?
John, allow me to channel the moonbat mindset:
We cheat because you rupuglicans suppress the vote and steal elections. We are doing it because you did it first and then did it again (2000 & 2004). Besides, the right leaning media reports your hate and fear based lies and tricks people into voting against their interests.
/moonbat off.
That answer your question?
It just shows another side of the hypocrisy of the left, HR.
I would like for one of the liberal/progressives who come here to defend against my assertion that the although the left claims to have the better ideas, they do not let the votes sort themselves out unassisted, but engage in various means to defraud the public’s will in order to remain in power. Is it power they are after(which explains rigging votes and intimidation tactics), or some altruistic motive thinking they can do better than conservatives?
Their answers to the above will reveal what they truly are.
Here’s a bit more for you about what is going on behind the scenes in the Nevada Senate race. Talk about Astroturf!
A Fake Tea Party Group Appears in Nevada
http://soquelbythecreek.blogspot.com/2010/10/fake-tea-party-group-appears-in-nevada.html
Why Are Casino Bosses Teaming With Union Bosses in Funding an Anti-Tea Party Group?
http://www.redstate.com/laborunionreport/2010/10/29/why-are-casino-bosses-teaming-with-union-bosses-in-funding-an-anti-tea-party-group/
@ HR
Thats’ “Rethuglicans” to you.
😛
Allegations of rampant voter fraud on the part of democrats have come up before recent every election. Oddly, those making such allegations never seem to be able to prove them, even when alleged incidents have been thoroughly investigated.
http://www.brennancenter.org/content/resource/policy_brief_on_the_truth_about_voter_fraud/
Has anybody got actual examples where voter fraud has been proven to have taken place, and has actually affected the outcome of an election?
Greg, are you for real??? I’ll give you a RECENT one….. AL FRANKEN!! Proof??? Read ther stories on it, I’m not doing YOUR homework… but the proof, one part anyway, was the one precinct, where, more votes were COUNTED, than the records show were CAST! THAT plain enough for you?? And the Dems were allowed to recount, and recount, until they “found” enough votes for Franken, and then that was it! Didn’t matter that some of those “lost votes” were found in the trunks of cars…….etc.
Now, do you homework on the History of Zombie voting in Chicago! Yes Greg, the DEAD have been found to vote OFTEN in Chicago…. in Democratic wards….
Then we have the Guys from, Florida was it, who just got nabbed, and are in court now on election fixing, two Black guys, Democrats both…. that was in the News just yesterday.
That’s three with even thinking hard Greg….. do you homework, and when you get to 100 different Democrat instances of voter fraud (won’t be too hard to do, Honest!) come on back and fess up we were right…… until then, shaddup!!
Speaking of SEIU in Nevada. Union goons are busing union workers to early voting and intimidating and standing over them. A complaint has been filed”
http://www.redstate.com/erick/files/2010/10/unioncomplaint.pdf
So, we have SEIU in charge of the voting machines, in charge of union voters and SEIU was hired and is overseen by Harry Reid’s son who is also running for office. Something wrong with this picture?
Dead people also voted in Minnesota in the 2008 election
http://www.minnesotamajority.org/Home/tabid/112/EntryID/187/Default.aspx
What would happen if Bush were President and less than a week before the mid-terms they found explosives on U.S. bound planes? The left would be screaming conspiracy with the intent to throw the elections.
As for Chicago, one of my buddies shared a story with me about when he came back from Vietnam and voted for the first time in Chicago. When he turned his ballot in they asked him why he didn’t vote for some of the candidates and he told him he didn’t know who they were. They said no problem and finished filling out the ballot for him right in front of his face. Grant it, that was 40 years ago but anyone who thinks it doesn’t happen anymore is delusional. To imply that just because it didn’t affect the outcome of an election is no big deal shows a disregard for the laws. When I go out tonight perhaps I’ll blow through all the stop signs. As long as it doesn’t cause an accident, it’s no big deal.
Hank, Greg and B-Rob are impervious to facts. Present them the facts and they respond with KOS, DUNG, puffho talking points. You are wasting your time.
I predict he will come back and say your “proof” is nothing more than accusations, innuendo, and loony conspiracy thinking.
Greg also must have missed the Dems slashing all the tires of every van the Republicans had leased to get voters to the polling places the night before the election.
When one of their own turned on them and outed them to police it turned out a Dem representative’s son was the middle-of-the-night ringleader of the group.
The tire slashers did jail time, IIRC.
Dead voters recorded as casting ballots in Johnson and Jackson counties
@ Hardright, #12:
Asserting something repeatedly does not make it a fact. For something to be accepted as fact it must be verified, and the details of the verification presented.
Take that story of dead Minnesota voters, up in post #10. If this is really true, they should be able to provide specific, verifiable details on at least a couple of examples.
Over a year has passed since the allegation was made and the story was plastered all over the internet. Have they yet provided evidence for even one case? If so, I’ll be only to happy to read the details.
Maybe it’s not that I’m impervious to facts. Perhaps I’m just more resistant to bullsh-t.
Nan,
That happened in Milwaukee during the 2004 elections. I know, as I lived just south of the border between Illinois and Wisconsin, and I listened to Mark Belling every day.
Just another instance of liberal vote defrauding while they claim their ideas are the better ones. If their ideas truly were better, they wouldn’t need the subversion of the election processes to win.
Democracy itself is at stake.
You should have said republicanism itself is at stake.
Each time the propaganda media hear or see us call the USA a democracy we are confirming to them that their brainwashing is working. As close to the election as we are we should be reminding the public that the USA is not a democracy and that one way to tell if a news media is liberal is if they call the USA a democracy instead of the republic that it is.
Democratic Republic if you want to get real picky………
And HR…. I hear ya!! They are all over these days! You can SHOW THEM somebody doing it right in FRONT of them, and they’ll deny it and come up with excuses for it!! LOL!!
Oh, and it’s now ok for Democrats to support and fund “tea party” and other Right side candidates!! Had a guy from the Dems on , O’Reilly, or Hannity the other night saying so!!! Since it was not “Illegal” (technically it’s not, but it IS “unethical and Immoral”) it was ok for them to do this and attempt to “split” the voters on the right, so the candidate on the LEFT has a better shot!! To QUOTE the guy… “After all, it’s the guy with the MOST votes that matters”!!! UnQuote….
Fairness, truth, Honesty, ethics etc don’t mean squat, only WINNING and POWER matter!!!!! Sorry, but you lefties are SICK PUPPIES!!!
NaN….. recall that too!!! Funny how such a big deal was made about ONE instance of a Rand Paul supporter (granted, the guy WAS wrong and out of line!!) roughing up a gal who was a supporter of his opponent….. but NO indignation of the MANY times MANY SEIU guys beat up on MANY Right wing candidate supporters!!
Greg – are you the same Greg who is trolling Ace of Spades HQ?
Greg, if you were impervious to BS, you wouldn’t spout it all the time.
Hank, there are possible charges pending in NJ for the games they tried to play. remember that and what that scumbag said the next time the left screams about the “will of the voters being defied” by the GOP.
William, I wondered that too. The Greg on that site is a little more rabid, but just as full of it.
Re: #40
I’ve never heard of Ace of Spades HQ. I don’t think of myself as trollish. I suppose opinions about that vary. I’m more concerned with the discussion than with what people think about me.
Lets review; Harris County Texas, Voting machines destroyed,Bill Safe Haven City White, Shelia Jackson Lee Nawwwwwwww lets not go where you are thinking.
@Greg:
Actually, if you read the information provided, out of the limited number of cases they investigated, they found 5 cases of votes cast by dead people which the Sec/State brushed off as a clerical error. Like right now Missouri has 15 counties where there are more registered voters than actual voters. That’s also been brushed off by the Sec?State as clerical errors.
Apparently the Justice Department is not interested in enforcing this law that requires states to purge voter lists. Also apparent, there appears to be a few prosecutors will to go after vote fraud “especially in Minnesota.”
http://www.timesherald.com/articles/2010/09/27/opinion/doc4ca16733e7a68182970103.txt?viewmode=fullstory
_________________________________________________
Good news for our troops!!!! in spite of Eric Holder:
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/breaking-major-court-victory-for-military-voters/
There are some very basic, common sense approaches which could be taken to virtually eliminate voter fraud in this country.
1) When a person dies, a copy of the Death Certificate must be filed with the county voter registration office within 60 days of the issuance of said Certificate.
The filing of the Certificate, and the verification of the filing, should be a prerequisite to any/all probate procedures regarding the deceased person’s estate.
2) Require a Gov’t issued photo ID at the voting booth.
3) People who move from one state to another, or one Precinct location to another, bear the burden of having their old voter registration transferred over to their new Precinct. If a person moves from one state to another then the voter should be required to get a Certification of Removal from his/her old state prior to being registered in the new state.
Because these common sense measures are not already in place it would be very easy for me to perpetuate voter fraud which would be very difficult for anyone to take notice of.
For example: My wife and I grew up, got married, and started our family in SC. In the process we lived in three neighboring counties. We then moved to NC where we lived in two different counties. We then moved to GA and have lived in two different counties here.
We could, conceivably, arrive at the polls first thing in the morning here in our home town and cast our votes. We could then drive to the other GA county that we lived in and vote there too. (That’s two fraudulent votes in GA.)
From there we could drive 30 minutes across the GA border into SC and vote in the three counties that we lived in there. (That’s six fraudulent votes in SC.)
We could, conceivably, then make our way to NC to cast votes two more times.
(That’s four fraudulent votes in NC.)
Why would Democrats want to prevent voter fraud? They seem to be the only ones manipulating the system to commit voter fraud; therefore, prosecuting voter fraud is self-defeating for Democrats.
AC…
Re #3…I’d probably opt for something along the lines of “no voting for two elections, voter name removed and new registration required.” Registration isn’t that big a deal for the voter, and these days with computers, a simple Excel program would permit removal pretty easily.
Here’s an answer to Greg’s assertion that there are accusations, but no proof:
http://spectator.org/archives/2009/12/04/soros-eyes-secretaries
There’s a live link in the article which takes you directly to the project info. This is in line with the non-prosecution of the black muslims at the Philadelphia polling site. Just because guilt has to be proven “beyond a reasonable doubt” in a court of law doesn’t mean that the same standard has to be applied in every day interactions – but that’s the standard required by those who seem intent on the “nobody here but us chickens” folks.
You can make all the laws you want, but if you don’t enforce them – for whatever reason – you’re living in a lawless land. Also, a multiplicity of laws enforces erratically is either an indication of complete corruption or a gateway inviting corruption in. Ayn Rand had something about this in her book, I understand. (Haven’t read it. It’s on my “one of these days” list)
Out of an electorate in the area of 160 million people, the number of actual cases where people vote who are not supposed to is infinitesimally small. Which is why one of the posters above had to bring up a case in one city in 2004 and a Wall Street Journal article recycled a case from 1993. The reason there are so few cases of voter fraud should be obvious — to actually alter a general election (as opposed to a primary), you need thousands of illegal votes, if not hundreds of thousands, depending on the office you are trying to influence. There is little to gain by having an illegal vote here and another one there. Which is why in the few cases where people do vote illegally, it is an ad hoc, person by person case of misconduct. Like Ann Coulter voting in Florida when it APPEARS she was not legally permitted to.
http://motorcityliberal.blogspot.com/2010/10/ann-coulter-to-face-vote-on-voter-fraud.html
No widespread conspiracy to commit vote fraud; rather, one sloppy and stupid individual voting where she was not permitted to vote.
I see the entire “voter fraud” claim as pretty shaky. First of all, consider that there are very few actual cases of illegal votes. You have to ask why the right gets so exercised over a “threat” that appears, from all the data, to be quite remote. The fervor is nowhere near matched by the actual incidence of misconduct in general elections, and cons pay NOT ATTENTION to primaries, which is where a small change in votes could have a much greater impact, since fewer people vote in primaries than general electiosn. And, no, cons, the absence of evidence does NOT mean there is a hidden widespread problem; that is paranoid magical thinking.
Second, “voter fraud” attention keeps being payed to only CERTAIN “voter groups” and geographic areas that have, to date, NOT actually yielded many (if any) cases of voter fraud. I mean, seriously, how did Mark Kirk chose which precincts he would concentrate on? What evidence exists that those areas, and no others in the entire state of Illinois, have a fraud problem? If you keep aiming your “voter fraud” initiatives in places where, so far, there are few cases of actual fraud, you will miss the fraud that could be happening in areas where you are not looking. In other words, since the attention paid in minority areas and heavily Dem areas have proven so fruitless in uncovering any actual fraud so far, if you are REALLY concerned about fraud, and believe it is widespread, then you SHOULD be looking in the exact opposite direction. Indeed, for all the disproportionate attention paid to minority voters by cons, you are PROBABLY missing a lot of afraid in non-minority areas. To use an analogy, one of the problems with racially profiling Black males for drug trafficking is that it leads you to pay less attention to the 67 year old White grandmother who may be trucking 150 pounds of weed in her minivan. Similarly, since the places cons are currently targeting for voter fraud are all VERY SIMILAR, you leave the door open to fraud in areas that do not fit that “demographic profile.”
Third, I have a simple proposal — let’s have the SAME ANTI-FRAUD EFFORTS at ALL POLLING PLACES, minority and White, urban and rural, inner city as well as suburb, Anglo areas as well as heavily Spanish speaking areas. Indeed, if you are ACTUALLY interested in fraud prevention, and you think it is SO widespread, then how could you cons oppose that?
I tried to collect all of the voter fraud stories into a single post, and then updated it as more came in… I’m now up to three collections of voter fraud stories and growing…
Aye —
Your post tends to prove a couple of my points. The article you linked to stated:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_U.S._presidential_election
First, the state of Kansas had 1.2 million voters during the 2008 election cycle and Missouri had about 2.8 million. So out of a total subset of 4 million voters, that article focuses on 6,200 names of people who APPEARED to be dead but were still registered. Second, their review of the names the guy came up with showed that the names were actually names of people who WERE alive and had similar names. So even assuming you had culled a list of “dead” people and decided to somehow vote under those names in all those different precincts, you would not only have a pretty serious task ahead of you, but you would also run the risk of the “dead” person having already voted or requested an absentee ballot. In other words, your chances of getting busted using any individual name of a dead person appears to be pretty high.
Out of those 6,200 names, is it POSSIBLE to vote for some of the people who are actually dead? Sure. But, again, what would be the point of all that work to swing a few votes out of the 6,200? Remember — McCain won Missouri by 4,000 votes in an election where Ralph Nader and Bob Barr garnered a total of 30,000 votes. If you REALLY want to swing an election, I suggest that the easier way to do that would be to use your time and money campaigning for the independent and siphon votes from your opponent, NOT trying to vote in the name of a dead person — especially a “dead” person who may be standing behind you in line at the voting booth.
In addition, how, pray tell, would you go about figuring out how to police that fraud? There are 6,200 duplicate names out of a total of 4 million voters. How can the present proposed con approach (i.e., targeting minority precincts in the inner cities) come anywhere close to addressing the simultaneously broad geographic and tiny numerical problem? I won’t even get into the fact that minority voters tend to be UNDERREPRESENTED in the electorate. Why target minority areas when the 6,200 names are not, obviously, going to be concentrated there? In other words, those 6,200 dead people are more likely NOT to live in minority dominated areas — yet that is where cons focus. Makes no sense if the real goal is attacking possible fraud.
Lastly, the article unwittingly points out the disenfranchisement problem. If you prohibited anyone with one of those 6,200 names from voting or registering, you are, in fact, prohibiting some number of eligible voters from casting their vote. This is, to say the least, a b.f.d., especially if you are going to target those of the 6,200 names that are in minority areas (the current con approach) and not the ones in non-minority areas. So, again, your focus on the minority wards in Kansas City, for example, leaves a wide open field for fraud in the non-minority areas outside the inner city.
another vet wrote the following nonsense —
During the Bush presidency, before just about every election, the national terror threat level rose for no apparent reason, with the Bushies naming undisclosed “threats” as the reason. In this case, actual BOMBS have been sent into our country from Yemen via US common carriers and international airliners; and yet, Obama has not raised the general threat level, only the threat level for airlines.
If you think, based on the facts, that the two situations are identical and require the same level of skepticism, then there is something deeply wrong with your cognitive skills. You just might be a “truther” . . . .
Here’s another report:
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/10/voter-fraud-alert-fifteen-missouri-counties-have-more-voters-than-population-.html
As for the “small number”, please review the number of votes by which Franken took office. And the number of votes in Fla that were disputed when Bush took office. If you don’t have to win by a certain majority, but just have to win, small numbers can be significant.
RoboMonkey
29Reply to this comment
I tried to collect all of the voter fraud stories into a single post, and then updated it as more came in… I’m now up to three collections of voter fraud stories and growing…
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanks for doing that.
Keep up the good work.
I hear there’s an app for voter fraud, too.
I want to go further. There should be fingerprint ID, retina scan ID, or whatever type of ID comes up in the future at each poling place. I know it would cost a lot, but I am willing to pay for it to get voter fraud eliminated.
If using the fingerprint, the FBI would send a fingerprint, photo, and address info of each individual legally able to vote at each voting location. Voters coming in would give their fingerprint, it would be checked, and a photo of the person would appear if it is them in the records, then they would be allowed to vote. The voter’s information would be sent to the FBI and they would erase their name from the eligible to vote list. If someone else tries to vote anywhere using the same info, the FBI would be warned, and the individual would be held at the voting place until they find out who is who.
Without a way to positively identify an individual at the voting location there still could be a way for them to vote different places if there isn’t a central clearing of information about that individual. For there to be voter fraud, the FBI would have to be involved in it and that would be hard to do, but not impossible.
suek —
The link you sent linked to this link:
http://missouri.watchdog.org/5822/fifteen-missouri-counties-have-more-voters-than-census-population/?utm_source=MO_Subscriptions&utm_campaign=5210b86f7d-More_voters_thab_census_population_in_Missouri&utm_medium=email
Let me tell you a few things I find wrong with this assertion that this is a “problem”, nonetheless indicative of fraud:
1) Snapshot problem — the last full census was ten years ago. Are they comparing 2000 census numbers to 2008 or 2010 voting rolls? If so, the problem should be obvious. Or are they comparing adjusted estimated census numbers to the 2008 or 2010 voting rolls. Say you had a family in 2000 with a mom, a dad, and a nine year old. A person who was 9 in 2000 is now 19 and eligible to vote. So is this guy using the 2000 census and adjusting for newly eligible teens and new migration, or not? In addition, anyone who moved into the county in 2010 and registered would not be included in the census. So that, too, would create a discrepancy.
2) Numerical problem — I notice that ALL 15 counties appear to be far from the population centers, St. Louis and Kansas City. Not sure where Columbia is, but I don’t think that county is included, either. So these are very small counties. So when the author, for example, shows that there is a 110% variance between population and voters, exactly how many PEOPLE is he measuring? 100 too many? 10? 1,000? Without the actual population stats, we do not know how serious the potential problem might be.
3) Targeting problem –As I stated previously, all the GOP antifraud efforts tend to be directed at urban, minority populations. I am willing to bet that none of these 15 counties has a significant minority population; we know none of them are urban, either. So to the extent that the GOP directed its antifraud observers into KC and St. Lunatics, they will miss all the potential fraud in those 15 counties.
In short, you CANNOT just look at a mismatch in numbers and conclude that there is fraud in action, or that fraud is even plausible, not to mention that fraud has been committed. And if fraud is so widespread, then you need a comprehensive approach to dealing with it EVERYWHERE, not one targeted only at minority neighborhoods.
Ok…so try this one for size:
http://hillbuzz.org/2010/10/27/could-the-black-panthers-voter-fraud-and-other-illegal-obama-2008-actions-be-the-big-scandal-the-white-house-insider-was-talking-about/
>>I am willing to bet that none of these 15 counties has a significant minority population>>
You’re joking, right??
We’re talking about Missouri here. You know…in the deep south. But you think there isn’t a significant minority population?? Probably only if you consider whites to be the minority…
@Nan G: #33 I hear there’s an app for voter fraud, too.
I thought you were joking about that and went to the iTunes store just for fun so I could say there ain’t such a thing and in the apps is listed “Voter Fraud Mobile” and it is free. Makes me want to go out and get an iPhone just for the app.
It is put out by Freedom Speaks and their web sight is at:
http://www.freedomspeaks.com/default.aspx
Click on “WHO WE ARE” and it says:
Who or What Is
FREEDOMSPEAKS.COM?
We’re the first political social network based on one simple premise:
Writing letters to your publicly elected officials.
B-Rob,
I’m not a truther nor did I imply that the terror threats were done for political reasons. They were obviously very real. The fact is the lefties in this country were constantly accusing the Bush administration of using terror threats for political gain. Do you have access to classified information that would prove they weren’t legitimate terror threats? Probably not. I realize anyone who represents view points contrary to yours has something wrong with their cognitive process. But hey, when you were created they broke the mold.
smorgasbord —
I shudder to think what the cost would be to create a system that would permit this degree of screening. You would need a system to screen about 130 million people in 50 states, in places as densely populated as New Jersey and as sparsely populated as North Dakota. Indeed, where would this screening occur? My county of 2 million people has 100 precincts. One machine in each precinct? or would it be centralized? And would all the people in North Dakota have to travel to the capital city to get screened?
To make it actually workable, it would have to be an interstate system — to prohibit Ann Coulter from voting in Connecticut when she lives in NYC, and voting in Florida when she lives in Connecticut. And this entire system would be created, presumably, to manage federal elections, which only occur every two years. And since elections are a local issue, I am supposing that your approach would require creation of a new federal department to design, create and manage the system, with the requisite employees to actually do the work. In short, you are proposing federalizing election machinery — and all this based on HOW MANY proven cases of fraudulent votes cast by the 200 million or so age eligible adults?
@ suek, #27:
I read the linked article. There’s a verified example of a dead person who voted in there somewhere?
Nope. Just more allegations.
With all of the organized, widespread voter fraud that’s supposedly gone on, you’d think someone could come up with at least a few verified examples of fraudulent votes cast. If voter fraud is epidemic, easily verifiable examples should run into the hundreds anywhere it’s taken place. Where are they?
Personally, I’m far more concerned about the abuses that are possible with electronic voting machines.
another vet —
As I said, the Bush era terror threat elevations were suspicious to me because they NEVER EXPLAINED what the rationale was for the threat index increasing. Did I worry about it, or think that it really mattered to the electorate? Nope. Hence the conspiracy theories rang hollow.
My point here is different — it would take world class mendacity to compare what happened yesterday to what happened during the Bush era. Here ACTUAL BOMBS were sent on cargo planes, directed at specific targets in the US and Europe. There is the complete absence of the kind of nebulous “threat” talk that happened during the Bush era, so I wonder why in the HELL you would bring up the lefty complaints about Bush back then, when this is so very different a circumstance now.
@B-Rob:
If that’s your proposed idea then why, pray tell, were you so vigorously opposed to photo IDs being required at ALL voting precincts for all elections throughout the entire state of GA?
Consistently inconsistent perhaps?
Oh, that’s right…I remember now…in your eyes all voter fraud laws are simply attempts to “suppress” minority votes. Of course that contention has been repeatedly proven false.
Why does every single issue that comes up have to be about race with you?
Exit question: Outside of your accusation, where has the idea of “selectively applied” voting verification standards been proposed?
R-Bob,
First of all the comment was meant to be sarcastic. What about the left’s accusations that Bush planted bombs in the WTC or that the Pentagon was blown up by missles all to start a war to get him re-elected or to take attention off the economy? Those planes looked pretty damn real to me and most people. That held as much sense as the accusations that Clinton blew up the federal building in Oklahoma City. The fact is, if the left or anyone else for that matter can come with claims that absurd, they most certainly would have been capable of accusing Bush of planting bombs last week.
@Greg:
Non-citizens registered to vote:
Non-citizens voting:
suek —
I do not have time to check the census stats to confirm, but I am very confident that 80% or more of the minority population in Missouri is clustered around KC, St. Louise (for you Jim Rome fans) and Columbia. The 15 counties that are listed in that link are not very populated. So, in all, I stand by what I said — the “too many voters” stat is an empty stat that, without much more information, does not support the conclusion that there is a voter fraud problem in general, nonetheless a problem existing in the minority neighborhoods the GOP tends to target.
Aye —
First of all, I am agnostic on the whole photo ID thing. I think that just because wingnuts propose something that would disenfranchise a disproportionate percentage of poor and minority voters does not mean that those voters should let it happen; most of them COULD get the requisite ID and I would hope that community groups would help them do so. They should not let GOers succeed in limiting the franchise by being too lazy to jump through some hoops.
On the other hand, why should they have to have more barriers to voting? My late father was a WW II vet (artillery) who never had a photo ID. So why the hell should he NOT be permitted to vote, but some alcoholic mook who has never done anything for this country get to vote, just because HE has a photo ID? Please explain the logic of conditioning the constitutionally protected right to vote on a photo ID! Why not condition freedom of speech, freedom of religion or the right to bear arms on having a photo ID? Doesn’t make any more sense than conditioning voting on having an ID.
I also had a beef with conditioning voting on an ID when Georgia did not make it very easy for urban voters to get IDs. Again — Fulton County is the largest county in the state. So what was the reason for putting the photo ID office out in the burbs, far away from public transit? Why make it so damn hard to get an ID? In fact, if you wanted to lead a person to believe that the real purpose of the requirement was to shrink the number of urban and minority voters, those kinds of otherwise inexplicable decisions tend to support that conclusion. Conversely, if you were only interested in confirming people’s identity, then you would have made it as easy as pie to get an ID!
In addition, to put it mildly, Georgia does not have a history of being “friendly” to minority voting rights. So when the GOPer dominated Georgia legislature proposes a condition on voting that JUST SO HAPPENS to disqualify proportionately more minorities than non-minorities, my Spidey sense tells me that they may not be just interested in “voter fraud.”
No, my main opposition to the Georgia photo ID requirement (and the other various voter fraud “solutions”) loops back in on what I said above: it is a solution in search of a problem, since there is scant evidence of ANY INCIDENTS of people voting illegally in person. All of the fixes that the GOP tends to support are overinclusive and disenfranchise otherwise eligible voters. And for what? The “risks” ellucidated by a handful of cases out of the hundreds of millions of voters who have gone to the polls in the last ten years? Please . . . .
Indeed, none of the GOPer con “voter fraud” proposals do anything about the REAL fraud risks associated with absentee ballots, which have a much more significant fraud history and fraud potential. Why? Because one person could fill out a hundred absentee ballots using their home as the address for registration, and mail them without anyone being able to detect fraud. You cons don’t push to require a photo ID for absentee ballots. Why not? Because I, too, could be “Edna Nussbaum” on an absentee ballot; but let me try to vote in person as Edna Nussbaum — photo ID or not ID. Fraud is simply much much MUCH less likely with in person voting — but that is the only area that GOPers seem to want to attack!
I loop back to another thing I said before — each and every time GOPer cons want to do poll watching, it always seems to be in minority areas. Why is that, Aye? Again, if the fraud is as prevalent as y’all claim it is, then why only do poll watching in minority areas? Why not just do all the polls, or randomly select polls to police? And why no interest whatsoever in addressing the fraud potential from absentee ballots?
All these things (the lack of an actual documented problems with in person vote fraud; the lack of attention to absentee ballots; the selective decision to do poll watching in minority areas; and the selection of conditions, like photo IDs, that have a disproportionate impact on minorities) all tell me that GOPer cons are not REALLY concerned about voter fraud at all. There is a very different agenda, IMHO, revolving around vote suppression, rallying the base, and creating an excuse for failure.
We are all on to the vote suppression efforts; those are being directly counteracted. Lot’s of sunlight on those efforts, so they will not work the way they did in the past — especially with the Department of Justice leaning over your shoulders, looking for discrimination.
But y’all can still rally the GOPer base and generate donations by scaring your side about “widespread, epidemic voter fraud” even if there is pretty much zero evidence of an actual problem. Even better, the baseless cries of “we wuz robbed” (how’d that work out, Al Gore?) give you a built in excuse for any close elections that you lose. Hell, Obama blew McCain out by three touchdowns, but you people STILL claim ACORN stole the election!
No, there is little or no factual support for the claims of widespread voter fraud. It doesn’t even make much sense. But just like “Show me the birth certificate,” “voter fraud” is something you cons can BELIEVE IN. even if not actual objective facts support it. Whatever . . . Have whatever pro-base propaganda you want. Only step the fcuk off interfering with anyone’s right to vote. Too many people died in the Civil War, on the beaches of Normandy, and in the dust in Iraq to let the franchise be a political tool.
Aye —
I am not impressed by you linking to two press releases. I mean, really . . . press releases? That is your evidence of WIDESPREAD voter fraud by non-citizens? Why didn’t the State of Georgia move to prosecute those people? THAT would have required some actual evidence that those couple thousand people voted illegally. And how, pray tell, does a drivers license requirement solve the non-citizens voting issue? If they come in with a fake ID, they will get to vote! On the other hand. the honest American born citizen who does not have an ID and won’t buy a fake one does not get to vote? How does that make any sense?
I ask you again, Aye — if voter fraud is as widespread as you claim, then why do GOPers always seem to target ONLY MINORITY AREAS? There are more non-minority neighborhoods in this country than minority neighborhoods. Maybe one of the reasons that there are so few documented cases of voter fraud is that the GOP tends to target minority areas (which are less likely to vote) and ignores White areas. There could be 10 times the fraud in the suburbs or in rural areas than in the hood; but if you anti-fraud types never look there, you will never find it, now will you?
I am not saying the GOPers decision to target only minority areas is evidence of racism; but without some other explanation as to why you target minority areas only, it does tend to support the impression that you are REALLY trying to keep minorities from voting.
So I ask again, Aye — why the selective choice in which polls to watch?
Which is why, of course, you went into such gyrations over it when we discussed it on the other thread. Right? And your “agnostic” status explains why you’re in gyrations again on this thread as well. Right. Yeah.
Disenfranchise them how? By requiring a gov’t issued ID card that will be given to them for FREE?
By sending someone at no charge to their home or place of work to complete the necessary paperwork and photo for the FREE ID?
No, there’s no disenfranchisement there. The state is doing all of the work.
Their “barrier” to vote would be no different than that of anyone else.
Really?
How did the law make it difficult to get the ID?
The original law provided multiple ways to get the ID including having someone from the state come out to issue it. The original law charged $3…three bucks…for the ID. That, and only that, is what the Courts struck down. After the $3 charge was removed the law was upheld.
As to the Fulton County stuff, and the location of the ID office, you’ll need to cite some sources to support that.
Also, the location of the office in relation to public transit is irrelevant since the state will send someone out the the home or work of the person needing the ID.
Times change and, while your father may have lived out his lifetime without any sort of photo ID, he is no longer living and the era in which having no photo ID was more common has passed along with him.
If you think about it, there was once a time when a license was not required to drive. Of course, that era has passed as well.
Mr. ParaLegal2, considering your self-noted higher level of classroom learning, you, of all people, should know that there is no “constitutional right to vote”:
That’s from Michael C. Dorf, Vice Dean and Professor of Law at Columbia University (a real law professor…not a lecturer).
And before you get all puffed up and ready to tell me that Professor Dorf and I are wrong, read up on House Joint Resolution 28 from 2003.
If there were no absence of the “constitutional right to vote” then those CongressCritters wouldn’t have been busy in 2003 working to amend the Constitution, eh?
As I told you before, more hours in the classroom does not intelligence make.
Well, the last I checked freedom of speech was extended, with a few exceptions, to every person in the US. Same with freedom of religion.
The right to bear arms, however, is indeed restricted to those who can present proof of eligibility qualifications including, but not limited to, their age.
Gun sales are also passed through a gov’t database for approval prior to the sale being completed and, yes, there’s a fee for that.
Well, we both know very well the racial equality issues in the history of the US.
We also both know that, if one is completely honest and straightforward, the Dims were much more involved in perpetuating these injustices than were the members of the GOP.
Of course, the issue here is an evenly applied standard of expectation for everyone without regard to sex, race, color, creed, or social status. You see, my position is one of even, equal standards for everyone rather than having select groups be exempt which is the standard that you seem willing to accept.
Well, just as a horse can be led to water but not forced to drink; sources can be quoted to you all day long but no one can force you to read them.
Your claims of “scant evidence” doesn’t eliminate the problem, it rather turns a blind eye to the issue.
Well Edna, I, too would like to see the absentee ballot issue addressed as well. Tighten up the whole entire thing. Absentee, in person, all of it.
In fact, with the exception of members of the military, I’d be perfectly willing to see the absentee ballot disappear entirely. In GA, early voting has reduced the need for voting absentee. I don’t know what other states are doing in regard to early voting. I never have looked it up.
Where is your evidence that poll watching is only done in minority areas?
Do you have any evidence to support that contention or are you just pulling that out of your azz and slinging up against the wall hoping that it will stick?
In every polling place I have ever voted in, every single one all the way back to the time I had just turned 18, there have always, always been poll watchers there. That’s across the span of seven or eight counties in three different states. They’ve always been there.
Ah yes the race card again. You always keep it handy don’t you?
The problem is that your card has been maxed out. Like the boy who cried wolf, people aren’t buying it anymore.
As to the DOJ bit, it’s really a quite ironic argument for you to make considering how the current bunch in that dept are provably doing nothing more than the exact racial opposite of what you repeatedly accuse the GOP of sans evidence.
No one is interfering with a person being able to vote. That’s a straw man and you know it.
Attempting to establish some sort of standard by which a person’s voting eligibility can be determined is no different than the voting age requirements or restrictions on gun ownership which are already widely accepted.
Well, in reality, one was a press release. The other was an Interwebz post from a legal blog.
Well, how do we know that GA didn’t prosecute them? You certainly don’t know that for sure any more than I do.
So, in the shallow recesses of your mind, the lack of prosecution suddenly equates with the lack of a crime?
Is that right?
Yet, when ACORN and its’ employees are repeatedly prosecuted for crimes of this very nature you dismiss that is inconsequential or irrelevant, yes?
It’s very obvious you are unfamiliar with a GADL and the non-counterfeiting security measures that are in place to prevent forgery. Those measures are extensive and quite effective.
Also, non-citizens must meet stringent requirements to get a GADL and, when that license is issued, the person’s citizenship status is clearly marked on it.
Another straw man.
A person without a gov’t issued photo ID can get one in one of several different ways. They can travel to the office where the IDs are issued or they can simply schedule someone from the state to come out to their home or work to issue it to them, thus eliminating all of the footwork.
The Courts have already upheld the GA law as well as a similar law in ID.
B-Rob…. the reason we don’t see MORE cases of Fraud come to light, is that the places it’s prevalent, are all controlled politically by the PARTY doing the cheating!!! Come ON!! I know you’re not THAT Blind or Obtuse!!!!
Missouri was mentioned above…. 15 counties with voter irregularities…. and the Secretary of State is “blowing it of”… well the Secretary of State, HERE in Missouri, is Robin Carnahan! A member of a family who have had FIVE members in Various Government positions…. SHE is currently running under the DEMONCRATS for Sen. Chris (Kit) Bonds Senate seat!!!! Wonder why she isn’t in any hurry to STOP voter Fraud in any of Missouri’s bigger Counties (Democrat strongholds in Missouri) ???? She NEEDS the VOTES!! DUH!!! I take it back, you ARE blind!
@B-Rob: #40 Police can get a hand held device that will take a person’s fingerprint and send it to some computer that will check it. Each precinct could have one.
The FBI would give each precinct the necessary info for each person who can legally vote there ahead of time. All that would need to be done is to take a voter’s fingerprint (or whatever the technology is in the future) and compare it to the ones the FBI gave them. No match means they can’t vote there.
We are already paying billions of dollars a year by reelecting politicians who should have been out of office many years ago, but they keep getting votes that are created. I will pay the price.