I know are very own Aye was at the Restoring Honor rally in DC and I’m looking forward to hearing a report from him. Until then, an awesome speech was given by pro-life activist Dr. Alveda King, niece of Dr. Martin Luther King, in which she says “I too have a dream!”
Plenty more where that came from….take a look at the turnout:
And the biased MSM is a bit peeved over this turnout, and the reaction to the turnout.
They can be peeved all they want…in fact that can blow it out their a*&. The citizens of this country are pissed and will not just sit idly by as the Democrats tear this country to pieces.
Sarah Palin’s speech is a must see:
An awesome rally that I wish I could of been a part of.
A message was sent tho…..
The one can relax in his ivory tower as long as you can, but we will not stay silent forever because we will be waiting patiently until November.
More videos from The Constitution Club
All three hours and 28 minutes of the rally can be viewed at – Restoring Honor Rally
See author page
Democrats, Tea-partiers and waiting for November? Apparently it’s not about politics…
Glenn Beck
Glenn Beck
lol yep…I no doubt that the proportion of Christians in the US will continue to fall (especially those going to church) and the number of atheists/non-believers will continue to rise. I think Beck is on more solid ground attacking Obama than trying to revive people turning back to God.
I was there – in fact I just now got home. It was a wonderful event. I counted the number of times the words “Democrat” and “Republican” were spoken. Democrats were mentioned twice, Republicans once. There were no mentions of liberalism or conservatism. It was truly non-political.
But the message was clear. The values of individual responsibility, hard work, faith that you can succeed, and personal, voluntary charity to those around you that might have fallen down on their path – those values that made the US a great nation – have been ruthlessly persecuted and deconstructed over the past few generations, in favor of government controlled handouts and punishing taxation on those who create wealth and jobs.
Gaffa,
Perhaps your correct. Probably not. At least our country hasn’t surrendered it’s culture to the religion of peace. Now go find your girlfriend/boyfriend a nice black burka for the fish fry tonight.
Beck did more for the memory of Martin Luther King and the meaning of his dream than all the Sharpton race hustlers had done in 40 years.
I wonder, did people know Martin Luther King was marching against Democrats and their segregation politics? Just like the Democrats terror wing the KKK, Lots of Democrat party history has been hidden, not forgotten just hidden by the media.
Blacks took a huge step forward on 8/28. The truth will win out.
GAFFA UK: BECK IS TALKING ABOUT HONOR AND GOD’S HELP;SO TO RESTORE AND CLEAN UP ,
THE DIRT YOU AND YOUR PARTY ARE SPREADING ALL OVER AMERICA.
@Tom
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe Beck didn’t specifically mention a Christian God at this rally – so surely Muslims who continue to believe in their God are completely onside with the bland and unconvincing message being touted here. The UK or Australia (where I live) haven’t surrendered to Islam. But I guess that little jibe is all part of the fear Beck likes to create on his show.
@ilovebees
I’m not a member of any political party. I presume you are referring to the Democrats but they can hardly be my party if I don’t live in the US. If people weren’t trying to carry out changes in the name of their ‘God’ for the last few thousand years – I’m sure we all be in a better state than we are now. Religion has shown little honour towards other religions and non-believers. For a start it would help if the Catholic church would honour children rather than trying to cover up scandal after scandal. Maybe religions should clean up their own dirt first before they resume lecturing the rest of us.
GAFFA UK: arent you putting ACID into the drink?: GOD is for all CHRISTIANS,
NO need to search for flaws in BECK speach: AND you can restrain from attacking any religion,because you dont beleive in GOD;
NOBODY attacking you, but yourself.
@bees
A
You don’t have to believe in something to attack it. lol. Or does that mean in your logic YOU can’t criticise islam, judaism, atheism, evolution, Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy etc?
@GaffaUK
The rally, which I proudly attended, was Christian in nature. Did you miss the 240 “Black Robes” that paraded on the Memorial at the end? There were multi-racial, multi-cultural representatives including, but not limited to, Catholics, Jews, and all manner of Christians. You have missed the whole point of the rally, and I know that you are missing out on the joys of life when you apply the principals of Faith, Hope and Charity that was the whole point that Glenn was promoting.
Did you hear Dr. Alveda King’s speech? Did you notice the tears in the crowd when we stated the Pledge of Allegiance, when the National Anthem was performed (with singalong from the crowd), when the bagpipes played Amazing Grace…
God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, is the Holy Trinity, the center of Christianity. None of those names apply to Islam – they have Allah and Mohammed and a religious belief that promotes the islamification of the world – THAT is not a Christian teaching. So, having read your posts, I have decided that all you want to do is bash those you don’t agree with, you don’t know what you are talking about and have proved your irrelevance. So sad…
Thank God for Glenn Beck and for all those he honored especially our military – both living and dead!
@Gaffa – you said:
Really? If there had been no religion of any type during the history of mankind, we would all be “in a better state than we are now”??
Do you re-read the asinine things you type? Or do you just hammer things out on your keyboard that register with your far left talking points?
Have there been atrocities in the name of religion? Of course, why just look at history, ancient or even recent – 9/11 for example. One doesn’t even need religion to commit genocide, look at Nazi Germany and Hitler’s attack on the Jewish population. He did that in the name of eugenics; although one could argue that he was trying to escape his Jewish roots. Source
There has been far more good done in the name of religion than bad, and for you to condemn all religion in a sweeping generalization like you did is both lazy and quite disingenuous.
Gaffe, your quote:
might be true, providing one UNDERSTANDS it.
Allow me to use your own example:
Since you asked, I will correct you Gaffe, and hopefully educate you to the fact that Christians, Jews, and Muslims, all worship the SAME God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
You also confuse political (hijacked), Isalm, with the peaceful religion of Islam. All three religions have many differences, with obvious different ways of “getting there”, but all three worship the same God, consequently, there is no need to define “which” God when Beck speaks of bringing God back to the public square.
As for the sins of religion Gaffe, it’s getting a little old, as the debate has been made countless times of the magnitude of world atrocities made by the godless, or those who FALSELY USE religion.
Your attack against the Catholic Church “not honoring children” is both bigoted and sophomoric. Why didn’t you go after the US Swim coaches ; just askin’, being it’s the latest of a plethora of “sexual cover-up” scandals? And let’s not forget Roman Polanski, who gets celebrated for the same thing, clearly making the point that, by cultural standards, “sins” are relative.
I know you have your reasons Gaffe for your detachment from God, but your do yourself or credibility no favors when you make ignorant claims; the consequence of attacking what we don’t fully understand. By hey, you are far from alone!
The bottom line is that we live in a fallen world . Good men fall, bad men fall, and the point of religion isn’t who can make it through life with the least amount of sins. It’s about the sinners (all of us) who by God’s grace can get back up and try again, regardless of how many falls it may take to get it right.
Glenn Beck has been a favored liberal batting board for quite some time. Having just read through way too many vile liberal comments following Wapo, NYTimes and Newsvine articles, heh, he just drove them straight to Frenzyville.
Judging from crowd estimates and also take into consideration how many couldn’t attend due to “the Summer of Recovery” Glenn Beck is just a small portion of what the left need concern themselves with.
As Glenn Beck is only one in more than millions and millions considering those attending 8/28, those attending 9/12, those that were there in spirit both times, and they vote. 😛
I was there and this was a God centered event. Salvation through Jesus was mentioned more than once and that is about as Christian and you are going to get, in DC on the Mall. We opened in prayer, prayer and songs of praise were raised through out the event, respect was given to Martin Luther King and all that he stood for, and we closed in prayer, giving thanks for the ‘hallowed grown’ where we stood, for our President, our troops and their families and our country.
It was a great day to be a God loving American. If you couldn’t be there, watch those tapes, Dr. Alveda King’s speech was good, the others should give you a good sense of what we experienced.
At the end, when the bag pipes started to play Amazing Grace, and the crowd in one voice (not prompted by anyone because the gospel singers on the stage had not started singing yet), started to sing…. I have never heard anything so powerful, so beautiful; there are no words.
Atheists make religionists look like pikers when it comes to killing the masses:
“The Death-Toll of Communist Revolutions
Modern “communistic” revolutions, according to a 1983 Foreign Affairs Research Institute report, resulted in about 140 million deaths. The report included all premature deaths from execution, man-made famine, imprisonment, deportation, slave labor, and civil and international warfare. The coalition counted 46.2 million Asian, 45 million Soviet, and 3.6 million European victims of Communism from 1917 to 1967, reaching the fairly comprehensive sum of 139,917,700 deaths.
The Chinese communist death toll far exceeds that caused by the Axis war, both before and during the Second World War. Walker (1971, p. 15) estimated as many as 63 million persons died as a result of Chinese Communism from 1927 to date.
Schwartz (1972; 1985) claims that Mao Tse-tung’s “Great Cultural Revolution” holocaust alone was responsible for some 29 million deaths and the disruption of the lives of 600 million people. Others concluded that the number was closer to 35 million. Sonam Topgyal (1984, p. 7) estimated that the Chinese murdered 1,278,387 persons during their 3 3-year rule of Tibet alone. Specifically, 174,138 Tibetans died in prison and labor camps, 156,758 were executed, 432,607 died fighting, 413,151 died of starvation, 92,731 of torture, and 9,002 of suicide. Of the more than 7,000 active monasteries present in the Himalayas before the 1950 Chinese takeover, only six remain.
Other Communist-Produced Holocausts
Dolot (1985) claims the Ukrainian communist holocaust cost 7 million lives. Dr. Schwartz’s research foundation claimed that over 2 million persons were killed by the Pol Pot Cambodian government. Facts on File (February 20, 1981) quoted a February 5th United Nations human rights panel report which concluded that the five-year-long Pol Pot regime genocide was “without precedent in our century, except for the horror of Naziism.” Once the communists took control of the country in April 1975, millions were killed, including entire villages and communes, pregnant women or women who had just given birth, old people, entire families, newborn babies, and even mental patients (February 2, 1979, Facts On File).
Hawk (1982, p. 21) places the number massacred from 1975 to 1978 at as high as 3 million. According to Sihanouk (1979, p. 77), Radio Hanoi reported that Pol Pot liquidated 3 million Cambodian men and women. Sihanouk, Cambodia’s first head of state after the revolution (he resigned on April 2, 1976), feels this estimate is exaggerated, but agrees that the number was high and that “the remaining five million Khmers were barely holding on after three years of forced labor, hardships of every variety and suffering were unparalleled in all of human history.” These “slaves,” the author reminds us, were doctors, students, or civil servants. Many of these who fled traveled through mine fields in a desperate attempt to reach the border, but barely one-tenth made it. The rest died, were captured, or were murdered. The elimination of so many competent personnel rendered the nation’s industrial and military complex virtually useless. ”
Quoted from:
http://www.creationinthecrossfire.com/Articles/darwinism.htm
This thread demonstrates what I was afraid could be the result of this rally… once I started to watch it.
Many non Religious Fiscal Cons felt betrayed by the Bush policy of “Compassionate Conservatism”, and are still gunshy about the intersection of Religion and Politics.
Beck started as the Voice of anti Progressive America… someone who was fighting against Big Government, but recently has brought more and more “Faith” into his TV shows, and now this rally.
The one thing that could destroy the Fiscal Con movement, is the fight between Non religious Cons, and Social Cons…
@Romeo – You said:
How can one be a Non religious Conservative? If you believe that our rights come from a higher power, from God and that no man or government may take them away or grant them; then by definition you believe in a God, do you not?
anticsrocks,
I consider myself one of those “Non religious Conservative”. I have no use for bible-thumpers and anti-abortion zealots.
But at the same time, the Founders were wise to emphasize the concept that there is a higher power than government – even a democratically elected one. Call it God, nature, natural morality or whatever, The existence of an authority higher than a government is critical to the continued existence of a free society. America’s founders understood that when they repeatedly mentioned “The Creator,” “providence”, “inalienable rights”, and so forth in their public and private documents and letters. This emphasized the powers, laws and rights that no ruler or government should ever presume to usurp. Indeed, the Declaration of Independence specifies that any government that does so looses its legitimacy to govern.
God, in the context of government, is a level of accountability.
@anticsrocks
Pretty simple… our Rights are based on the fundamental fact that we are thinking creatures, who can decide for ourselves. Whether we got there through Evolution, Divine Plan, or some guy with a White Beard who cloned a Woman through taking a bone sample of a guys rib… is immaterial.
We ALWAYS have Freedom of choice, even if the consequence is death… and the Constitution was written to ensure that the Government admitted we have choice, and to take the Governments coercion out of our choices, whenever possible, by taking away the Govs ability to punish us for said choice.
I ALWAYS have Freedom of choice… its a fundamental nature of Man… and thus God is immaterial to my Rights.
But Government, left to its own devices, tends to grow without limits. Without the concept of inalienable rights, the decline of a democracy to tyranny (of course cloaked in “caring for people”) is slow but certain.
@Dreadnoght 19
Yep… we get to the same place, just by different means. I subscribe that you cannot effectivly take away a persons ability to choose… although you may make the consequences of said choice really bad… thus its a fundamental attribute of Man… one that needs to be Acknowledged as it cannot be changed.
So, whether its an Inalienable Right granted by a creator, or just somthing fundamental about Man himself, the Founders were Genius’s to put those Rights in… because only by acknowledging those Rights can you end up with a stable society.
Notice, that we are currently the OLDEST Government on the planet? That has not changed form? Thats becaue our Founding Documents were based on how Man IS… not like the Communists or Socialists, who base Gov on how they want Man to be…
Funny… they just had the Natural Right debate on Judge Napolitano on Fox… LOL
Gaffa,
Don’t walk around in fear all the time and you won’t surrender your entire culture to the ‘religion of peace’.
Sorry, but I take at look at the once great UK and celebrate my ancestors leaving that island.
Oh, BTW, your wrong. YOUR quote mentioned ‘Christians’.
But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
FedUp
Hmm – same God – different rules. lol. right – even though historically Judaism, Christianity and Islam have the same roots – historically and even today – many believe those who believe in a God outside of their religion (even outside their own demonination) is worshipping a false God. Doesn’t really matter as it’s all make believe anyway – like Thor, Zeus etc. Funny how some social conservatives use a degree of logic politically but through away all reason when it comes to religion. That’s why they call it faith I guess – you don’t need to use your brain – just believe in what you’re sold.
@Anticrocks
Of course you don’t need religion to commit genocide. Never said that. Although Hitler wasn’t an atheist but he wasn’t driven by religion. Stalin probably was but he didn’t kill in the name of atheism. However how many tyrants have killed in the name of atheism?
@PDill
lol – you are comparing swimming coaches from one country and one individual with the Catholic Church systemic and global abuse of children & cover up! Surely you can see that is ridiculous if you took a moment to think about it. The catholic church is deeply hypocritical on this.
@Suek
Except none of those were done because they were atheists. Those who committed such crimes may have also liked the music of Frank Sinitra – but that doesn’t mean liking Frank Sinitra music makes you a genocidal psychopath. Whereas things like the crusades and the abuse committed by missionaries, jihadists etc etc were done in the name of God and inspired by their holy books. I don’t think there are comparable genocides where atheists have killed those for simply believing in God.
@Tom
Fortunately I don’t walk around in fear. Yes apparently in the UK everyone wears a Burka and gets stoned to death if they commit adultery. I wonder when one cheesy stereotype of bowler hats, London Fog, cobbled streets etc got replaced by this new idiotic lies & exaggeration by the hard right? Oh that’s right – it’s our old friend the MSM. You read one or two silly stories (probably via Daily Mail) and suddenly that becomes the percieved reality. However for those who believe UK has gone to the dogs are usually the ones scaring themselves stupid watching Glenn Beck and believing that the US is going the same way in a few years.
At the end of the day the best thing about the US is the separtion of state and religion – and the freedom to practise religion or be a non-believer. If you try to reinvent yourself as some imposed theocractic monoculture then you’ll end up as democratic as Iran.
@Romeo – You said:
You pick up the argument after the fact that this right to choose you speak of comes from a higher power. A convenient way to sidestep the issue.
@Gaffa – You said:
Why do those of you on the left constantly strive to keep score? Bottom line is you stated that if all religion were taken out of the history of man, we would be “in a better state than we are now.” How can you not realize the absurdity of your statement?
@anticsrocks
Side stepping the argument? or acknowleding that I don’t know?
One of the truly interesting things about the religious is their ability to stop thinking as soon as you cross one of their religious boundaries.
If you are so arrogant to say that you know all the eternal truths, because some book written by a bunch of people 2000 years ago has all the answers? When they could ONLY write things within their own conception of how the world works (little things like physics, or evolution…)… Beleive as you wish…
I explained my basis for my view of Natural Rights, through the way Man is… if you don’t wish to accept it… its not my problem…
but my premise remains, you can explain Natural Rights, without having to rely on religion, which YOU had a problem accepting.
OH… and “I” did not say it came from a higher power… but MAY have come from a higher power…. or from evolution…. you read what you wished to see, not what I wrote…
@Romeo – You are the one getting all upset about this, putting words in my mouth, not me. My premise is simple, our rights come from our Creator, just as the Founding Fathers stated so eloquently when they gave us the Declaration of Independence.
I can accept that you have a right to any view you wish, I was merely asserting that our rights come from our Creator, you seem to want it both ways. You want to say man has the right to choose, but you stop short when it comes to admitting where that right comes from.
No need to get pissy about it.
Sarah Palin is a genuibly gorgeous, intelligent, and ‘very nice’ lady; I mean the word ‘Lady’ literally. There are not many -Ladies- on the left.
\This rally was also meaningful in its own right to ‘stop the use of our armed forces’ in the dirty politics of the left.
It was about time, that our armed forces received tthe respect so clearly deserve. Sarah Palin in particular was kind to remind us all, that behind every uniformed person is a mother, father, brother, or sister. The left has a ‘hate’ towards those armed forces, which I can never get myself to accept.
As all the different awards were given to a few, it was a silent message to those on left, that the disrespect for our armed forces has began to be confronted.
I have to say, that it took uncommon courage, for MLK’s niece to speak at Beck’s rally, and skip the Rev. Sharpton’s. She is sure to receive doses of hateful flak over that perceived ‘snub’. The thing that is funny, and yet so bothersome, is that Sharpton’s rally supposedly ‘honored’ MLK, and it was done with divisive racist rhetoric, the very kind that MLK fought against.
Another thing about Beck’s rally. The placement of it was perfect. Done from the steps of the Lincoln Memorial to the pool, surrounded on all sides by memorials to the fallen heroes of several of our nation’s wars, facing the towering monument to Washington himself. Perfect.
@anticrocks
To ask how many tryants have killed in the name atheism is a perfectly reasonable question – as it seperates the key difference between those who do evil where their belief or non belief is not the motivation for their action and those who do. And if you took religion out of history you would still get wars etc but it would be one less thing for mankind to fight about.
@Gaffa – One less thing for man to fight about? THAT is all religion is to you? I truly, truly pity you.
You said:
What I think you’re trying to say there is that unless someone is committing atrocities in the name of religion, they are motivated by….what? Nothing? Insanity? Only non religious people can be insane? Maybe you just worded it poorly, but it really isn’t clear; at least not to me.
The things you say make no sense. Religion is far more than a reason to go to war or commit horrific atrocities, it greatly contributes to the civil society, for without it, there would be no civil society.
Okay, we disagree about religion, and that is okay; but to say it is only a motivation for war is, well childishly simplistic and asinine.
@Anticrocks
No that isn’t ALL that religion means to me nor did I say that was ALL it meant to me. I’m agnostic/borderline atheist who feels historically religion has been more corrosive than positive.
Come now – I can think of lots of reasons why wars could be started which are for non-religious reasons – such as grabbing more land, grabbing more resources, pre-emptive strike based on faulty intelligence on WMDs etc etc. I just don’t know of a war that was committed in the name of atheism – do you?
Of course religion is a far more than a reason to go to war – and it has played a positive role in human development as well as a negative depending on which people, which events etc etc. But to believe without it there would be no civil society is ridiculous. Do you believe we only have a moral compass because of some invisible guy with a beard? Do you believe atheists have no sense of morality or civility?
Question – where did I say it is ONLY a motivation for war? Did you misread my post or are you purposefully trying to distort my comments by inserting your own qualifiers?
GAFFA UK: HI, WE know just about all religions’s sources;
WHEN and WHERE are the beginning of AGNOSTIC and ATHEIST?
do they have anything to do with the finding of EVOLUTION by exploraters, who have been proven wrong on many facts of their arguments along theses CENTURYS . bye
@ilovebees
Are you refering to when historically agnosticism and atheism began or what atheists believe was the start of the universe?
And which facts are these?
GAFFA UK: hi, I was asking when and where the IDENTIFICATION of those 2 movements began,
ALSO all over the world came suspiction , from diffrent groups experts in their own field, RELIGION,
the DARWIN LITTERATURE and exploraters who came after him too, ecetera.
CAN you tell me where you think the conscience on HUMAN BEEN who give them the knowledge
of right and wrong came from. AND can you tell me where the human BRAIN ACTIVITYES started ON the MOTHER EARTH. where does WISDOM come from?. bye
@Gaffa – you said:
I have already pointed out how absurd and childish this statement is.
Yeah, right. 75% of Americans identify as Christian. Worldwide, Christianity is thriving, as well:
Of the approximate 2 billion Christians in the world today, 648 million (11% of the world’s population) are Evangelicals or Bible believing Christians. Evangelicals have grown from only 3 million in AD 1500, to 648 million worldwide, with 54% being Non-Whites.
Source
I know of no religion that says to worship outside their denomination is worshiping a false God. In other words, Catholics recognize that the Baptists and Methodists are worshiping the same God they do. This is another one of your attempts to be a bomb thrower and make a statement based on your own twisted outlook and not based in reality.
Here you flip flop and say that religion is positive:
Now to rebut this silly statement, I shall turn to our Founding Fathers:
Really? Then in our Declaration of Independence and other founding documents, I guess our Founding Fathers were just relying on man to grant rights, and offer the basis for a civil society.
John Adams – “We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion . . . Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
Benjamin Rush – “[T]he only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be aid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments. Without religion, I believe that learning does real mischief to the morals and principles of mankind.”
Noah Webster – “[T]he Christian religion, in its purity, is the basis, or rather the source of all genuine freedom in government. . . . and I am persuaded that no civil government of a republican form can exist and be durable in which the principles of that religion have not a controlling influence.”
James Wilson – “Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine. . . . Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other.”
And here, I think another quote from Webster really ties it up nicely –
“The moral principles and precepts contained in the scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws. . . All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery, and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.”
It is if he is speaking to you, Gaffa. He is basically pointing out that those religious wars you speak of that were carried out in the name of God are no such thing. You can have any despot who wants to wage war and might say it is in the name of a religion, but the bottom line is that if someone wants to go to war and has the resources to do so, they will.
@anticsrocks
If you could answer my previous question below and I’ll happily answer your new questions…
@Ilovebees
According to Wikipedia…
Atheism
Although the term atheism originated in 16th-century France, ideas that would be recognized today as atheistic are documented from the Vedic period and the classical antiquity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#History
Agnosticism
Since Huxley first used the term, several writers have defended agnosticism as a philosophical viewpoint. A number of earlier thinkers and writings have explored agnostic thought. Agnostic thought, in the form of skepticism, emerged as a formal philosophical position in ancient Greece. Its proponents included Protagoras, Pyrrho, and Carneades. Such thinkers rejected the idea that certainty was possible
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism#History
Well religion is superstition as it’s not based on reason. Explorers – maybe be superstitious or maybe not – depends on which explorer. Darwin’s theory on evolution isn’t superstitious as it’s based on scientific research.
I believe our conscience is part innate and part environmental (that is taught by our parents etc).
As human have evolved there is no one point in time or place which you can pinpoint where human brain activities started on planet earth.
I would say wisdom is stored in the brain and is based on experience among other factors.
Ariticles on the science and evolution of morality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_of_morality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_morality
btw – still waiting for you to let me know which facts of evolution have been proven to be wrong…
Why do people think that evolution and God can’t co-exist? Heck, the Pope, the Patriarch and the Rabbi’s in Israel are OK with it, and that pretty-much covers the whole of the Bible-writers!
It is pretty much just the American-based Evangelicals that take the whole Bible literally, and I never have figured out why they spend so much time and effort on the Old Testament…AKA Judaism.
GAFFA UK: HI, thank you for elaborating the subject, it’s very interesting to read. as for where
I found the fact of EVOLUTIONIST being proven wrong, I say that I have read it along my lifetime but I forgot where, I suspect the EXPLORATER who went the same road after DARWIN,not quite sure; SO if my word is not good enough for you to beleive, IT’s not my fault: but I have my beleif and I’m not trying to change yours, just trying to destabilyze your certainty of beleifs,
EXACTLY as you are doing here, on this post about a RALLY that where very succesfull,
and many thousands of people turn their prayers to GOD. wasnt it a bit arrogant from an atheist to critisize religion at this timing. bye
@Gaffa – you said:
If you re-read my post, number 37 you will see that I show where you actually flip flopped on this issue. But nice try to avoid having to defend your statement about the moral order or civil society.
The idea of the civil society, or moral order is one that our Founders held dear. You should read up on it. To question the idea of God as “some invisible guy with a beard” is again childish and immature. Do I believe atheist have no sense of morality or civility? No, I never said that. But that is altogether different from the idea of THE civil society.
@Anticrocks
Where’s the flip flop? Where did I change positions? Because I criticised religion and believe on the whole that we are better without it you ASSumed therefore I believe there is nothing positive about religion. That is simply not the case. That is like believing if someone (e.g. a Republican) criticised George Bush about his immigration policy then therefore that person must think there is nothing positive about George Bush’s policies – or if someone criticised Obama policies and believe things would be better if Obama wasn’t US President that Obama has never done anything positive as President. Up to that point because I had not mentioned that there are positive bits to religion please don’t ASSume that therefore I believe there aren’t any positive aspects to religion. That’s poor logic on your behalf. I simply elaborated my position. So clearly there is no flip flop.
Therefore your distortion that I said that religion was ONLY a motivation for war – still stands as a gross distortion on your part. If you were man enough you would see that you inserted the ‘ONLY’ and at concede that you had either inadvertently or purposefully distorted what I had said. Again I never said that religion was ONLY a motivation for war.
Christianity isn’t thriving in the US – there used to be more than 75% of Americans who identified themselves as Christians in the US. In 1948 it was at 91%. So it’s a fact that there are proportionally less people in the States who identify themselves as Christians. Meanwhile atheists/non-believers have are up from 4% to 12%. That’s still a big gap but the trend is definitely downwards for Christianity and up for non-believers. In a lot of the countries of the developed world the proportion of Christians are dropping much faster than the US. I expect over time that the developing world will also follow this trend. Whether evangalists numbers are rising is irrelevant if the total number of Christians are dropping.
http://gawker.com/5208182/happy-easter-christianity-is-dying
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm
Really? There are those who accuse Catholics of idolatry for worshipping Mary
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/blasp102.htm
http://www.atruechurch.info/catholicism.html
Founding fathers thoughts on religion
…
Benjamin Franklin
John Adams
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison
Religion may have been a neccesity early in mankind history when humans knew little about the universe and the underlying science of how things came about. Therefore they invented Gods and creation myths which helped them to explain things. This may have had a role to play in creating control on other people (for good and bad). But now as species we are much stronger in our knowledge – we don’t need to put down to things we don’t understand down to a mysterious God or Gods. Governments today don’t need to have one religion imbedded into their system and they can seperate church and state – irrespective whether religion played a role in establishing a country centuries ago. Theocracies should be a thing of the past – same as monarchies. They played a role but now we can do without them.
@Gaffa – You do know how to beat a dead horse, don’t you? You may not have said that religion was only a motivation for war, but you very well intimated that. What other purpose could you have had when you said that mankind would have been better off without it?
It doesn’t matter. If your assertion that your claim the world would be better off without religion, period was only half true, then so be it. You can’t have it both ways, either religion is so bad that the world suffered as a whole because of it, or it isn’t.
As for your Founding Father quotes, well you simply point out their views on Theocracies. You have yet to discuss the Transcendent Moral Order.
You say Christianity is on the decline and you even quote ARIS. Or rather you cite a website that quotes ARIS. Hmmm, so do I and the ARIS study I found clearly shows that in 2001 all U.S. respondents who identified as Christian (no specific denomination) rose from 14.1% in 2001 to 15% in 2008.
As for your asinine statement that Christian religions claim that only their denomination worships the one, true God, well that is simply absurd. You then try to prop up your rash statement by citing two websites that seem to agree with you. Tell me, did you do a WHOIS to see who owns those websites?
I did and in both cases they are owned by individuals, NOT by churches. So you say that a RELIGION or denomination within a religion calls into question the existence of a God outside their faith, but you offer up websites as “proof” that are owned by individuals. Laughable, but nice try. The only thing you have proven is that you have a cursory grasp of how to use Google.
@Anticrocks
Nope – that’s the ASSumption you made which I have corrected for you. War is done for many reasons.
There is no contradiction here. Religion has done good and bad – I suspect few would dispute that. It isn’t binary. It depends on which people, which events, which specifics etc. On the whole I believe if you add up all the good things and all the bad things – then I believe the bad things are worst and so society would be better off with religion. Is that a hard notion for you to grasp?
These quote stem from my belief that the a civil society doesn’t need religion – again as Jefferson say ‘ A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not’
Hmm you seem to have a cursory grap on how to read and comprehend the English language. Let’s look at my statement again.
“Right – even though historically Judaism, Christianity and Islam have the same roots – historically and even today – many believe those who believe in a God outside of their religion (even outside their own demonination) is worshipping a false God.”
Now I didn’t say “Many RELIGIONS believe those who believe in a God outside of their religion (even outside their own demonination)is worshipping a false God”. Clearing I’m refering to individuals here and all I have to do is give a few examples of this which I have. Yet again you made a foolish ASSumption without thinking or reading the quote. Funy how you like to throw around words like asinine but the own ass here is yourself. lol:D
GAFFA UK, I say that I beleive GOD is the ULTIMATE CREATOR,
RELIGIONS some are bad and offensives, some are rules by LUCIFER, some are man made in effort to adapt with their business and call it RELIGION,
BUT CHRISTIANS TRUE religions that AMERICA follow from their founders are obeying GOD,
HIS SON JESUS and THE HOLY SPIRIT, and IT work for hundreds of years. and ,
the AMERICANS WANT IT THAT WAY TO CONTINIUE for always.
@Ilovebees
Some questions for you….
* Do you believe in evolution?
* Do you believe the earth is over 4.5 billion years old?
* Which religions are ruled by lucifer?
* Do you believe Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same God?
* Do believe that if Jews, Christians and Muslims follows their religion as perscribed they will all go to heaven?
* IF an evil person, like Hitler repented and begged for forgiveness for his sins before he died would he go to heaven?
* Do you believe non-believers will go to hell?
* Do you believe everything in the Bible is literally true?
@Gaffa – Well after I waded through the sarcasm and lame insults, I see that you have once again contradicted yourself.
Here is your original quote (misspells and all) about some denominations of Christianity calling other denominations’ God a false God:
Yep, you said MANY. Not individuals, not some people, but MANY. Yet here you claim otherwise:
So which is it? MANY or INDIVIDUALS? I have detected a pattern with you. You first make some stupid, rash statement while making sure you have some “wiggle room” for what you think is plausible deniability. Then you troll the internet to find off the wall examples to prop up what you said.
That is sad, really; pathetic, even.
As for your bastardization of what the Founding Fathers said about THE Civil Society or Transcendent Moral Order, well you just keep proving that you haven’t the foggiest notion as to what I am talking about. Even though I defined the Transcendent Moral Order, you still try to wiggle out of the debate by calling it “a civil society”, as if the Transcendent Moral Order isn’t an easily definable and specific belief. Edmund Burke thought very much of the TMO and he didn’t take it lightly. Burke never separated religion and liberty; rather, he maintained that liberty is only possible when it is part of the eternal and Transcendent Moral Order. One of his biggest concerns was that freedom should never be confused with license. That instead, true liberty must always be understood as ordered liberty.
The idea of a TMO came about because the Founding Fathers were fighting against the tyranny of England. This is why they opposed a theocracy so vehemently.
Well unless you have something new to add, I am ending this debate for I am finding out that debating on a logical basis with you is like trying to put a saddle on a cow, you spend a lot of time to do it, but what’s the point?
Now it is your turn to throw another insult or two (lame as they are) and then make some attempt at saying that I misinterpreted what you said.
Go ahead – you have my permission.
@Anticrocks
*sigh*. Nope I didn’t deny I said MANY (as you falsely claim) – I denied that I’m refering to a religion AS A WHOLE. And again let’s go through that statement.
For start MANY doesn’t specify the religion as a whole, nor the hierarchy of that religion, nor even a majority of individuals. I believe that there are many people – e.g. Christians who may believe that Muslims or Hindus (or vice versa) are worshipping a false God. Of course there are others that believe religions (particularly those of abrahamic religions) worship the same God. However in brackets I stated – that I believe here is a subset of those people who ‘even’ believe that those who are in the same religion but not of the same demonimation worship false god.
So question: What is the difference between MANY and INDIVIDUALS? Do you really believe they contradict? If so please let me know how many people are in MANY and how many people are in INDIVIDUALS? lol. You can’t – as individuals is plural as is many – and both are not specificed in an amount. But again I guess you made an ASSumption and used poor logic – again. What’s pathetic – is someone like yourself who distorts someone else points of view and then gets upset when those assertions are backed up and proves to you that there aren’t any contradictions.
If want to find contradictions then please read the Bible – you’re find plenty there. Oops you made have read, using your own perculiar internal logic, ‘plenty’ as meaning that the bible has ONLY contradictions. Or that if I dare to criticise the Bible in having contradictions then surely I must mean that the Bible doesn’t have anything good to say. lol
WRONG – you somehow have got Christian mixed up with those failing to indictate a religious identity. lol
Page 2 – http://www.americanreligionsurvey-aris.org/reports/ARIS_Report_2008.pdf
In that report…
Do you still want to deny that data?
As for Transcendent Moral Order – if there is a moral order from a God then please show me scientific evidence that such a God exists.
As for lame insults – you started those with such dullish insults as ‘childish, immature and asinine’. Why don’t you grow up – if you can’t have a reasonable discussion without resorting to insults and then bleating when I give it back to you. Now run away if you must…lol
GAFFA UK: hi, I can say this; YOU see what you’r missing, by not beleiving in GOD,
I dont pretend to know all the answers: BUT you would have just to ask GOD
to enlighten your soul, and the answer would be found in your brain.
bye