WTF??? One wonders why Barack Obama feels compelled to repeatedly insult this country’s intelligence by rewriting history.
Outreaches are one thing. Wholesale bullsh*t is another.
President Obama says Islam has always been part of America, which raises the question, does the president know something about American history that we don’t?
It has become customary for presidents to offer greetings to various religious communities on the occasion of their most holy days. Presidents Ford and Carter both issued Ramadan messages, as did Presidents Clinton and George W. Bush. The Ramadan greeting became intensely political during Mr. Bush’s tenure because he was seeking to dispel the charge that the war on terrorism was a crusade against Islam. But Mr. Obama has used the occasion of Ramadan to rewrite U.S. history and give Islam a prominence in American annals that it has not earned.
Obama doesn’t waste much time getting to the heart of it:
And here in the United States, Ramadan is a reminder that Islam has always been part of America and that American Muslims have made extraordinary contributions to our country.”
Of course. The names just roll off the tongue. Tasawwar Jefferson. Or Ghalib Washington Carver. Or Ibrahim Lincoln. Thomas Abdel Edison. Mahmoud Luther King. Jimmy Carter.
Who could forget Barack Franklin at the signing of the Declaration of Independence? Of the image of General Dizhwar MacArthur on the deck of the USS Missouri accepting the surrender of the Japanese?
What a load of crap.
Throughout most of American history, the Muslim world was perceived as remote, alien and belligerent. Perhaps the president was thinking about the Barbary Pirates and their role in the founding of the U.S. Navy, or Andrew Jackson’s dispatch of frigates against Muslim pirates in Sumatra in the 1830s. Maybe he was recalling Rutherford B. Hayes’ 1880 statement regarding Morocco on “the necessity, in accordance with the humane and enlightened spirit of the age, of putting an end to the persecutions, which have been so prevalent in that country, of persons of a faith other than the Moslem, and especially of the Hebrew residents of Morocco.” Or Grover Cleveland’s 1896 comment on the continuing massacre of Armenian Christians: “We have been afflicted by continued and not infrequent reports of the wanton destruction of homes and the bloody butchery of men, women and children, made martyrs to their profession of Christian faith. … It so mars the humane and enlightened civilization that belongs to the close of the nineteenth century that it seems hardly possible that the earnest demand of good people throughout the Christian world for its corrective treatment will remain unanswered.”
Hollywood contributes to this idiocy. Kids growing up today think Michael Moore is a historian who films documentaries. They think Oliver Stone creates factually accurate movies.
Kevin Costner’s ridiculously inept English accent in Robin Hood was upstaged by the character of Azeem, the wise Moor. In that movie Robin would have made many bad mistakes had it not been for the Muslim. The problem is that Robin Hood “lived” in the 13th century, during the last of the Crusades which ended in 1291. It is highly unlikely that a Muslim would have been welcome in Robin’s band of scoundrels.
It could be that Obama thinks that both Robin Hood and Azeem were real life people. I mean, they were in a movie, right?
DrJohn has been a health care professional for more than 40 years. In addition to clinical practice he has done extensive research and has published widely with over 70 original articles and abstracts in the peer-reviewed literature. DrJohn is well known in his field and has lectured on every continent except for Antarctica. He has been married to the same wonderful lady for over 45 years and has three kids- two sons, both of whom are attorneys and one daughter who is in the field of education.
DrJohn was brought up with the concept that one can do well if one is prepared to work hard but nothing in life is guaranteed.
Except for liberals being foolish.
You mean obama lied? come on not obama he has always been truthful with the American People. Hes kept all of his campaign promises and hope and change is what all the people that voted him in to office have recieved. Stand up and let your voice be heard in November, vote them out of the house and senate and lets get this country back on track to being a world leader.
Actually, drjohn, I don’t like to be the bearer of bad tidings for you, but Muslims have been part of the western hemisphere and Spanish Colonial America since the 1500s. The next large influx of Muslims into the fledgling nations was with imported Muslim slaves…. or did you forget that much of Africa has large following of Islam?
The third big migration was post Civil War when many, including Muslims among the Arabs and Christians, came here from former Ottoman Empire regions.
So while your renaming of some notable founder era powerhouses did genuinely make me laugh, “da won” is factually correct INRE Muslim presence in this nation not only from the beginning, but purposely increased with slavery.
Thank you Mata, It looks like the Wholesale BS comes from Dr. John.
Obama didn’t say “Gee there have been Muslims here for a long time.”
Mata, they may have been brought here as Muslims, but apparently that didn’t last long.
And come on- the article says
So there’s “some evidence” of their presence but that’s it. And it is of minor historical significance.
But what really got me was this quote:
@RAP
Dude, you’re missing the target consistently.
Anthony Janszoon van Salee, a Spanish-born Muslim, settled in what would one day become New York in the 1630s. He’s American history’s earliest documented Muslim immigrant. He was a landowner and a successful businessman here before there even was a United States.
It’s been estimated that up to 20% of the slaves brought to the United States were Muslim. Didn’t anybody see the movie Amistad?
“So there’s “some evidence” of their presence but that’s it. And it is of minor historical significance.”
I don’t think someone’s name has to figure large in the history books for them to have played a significant part in history. As often as not, significant contributions go unrecorded. History often turns on the parts played by minor characters who aren’t even mentioned in the credits.
Well dang, drjohn… that doesn’t bode well for history that indicates that Christianity wanted to “take over the world”, does it? Especially since, a few centuries later, many of you in your camp are railing about the same type of history for Islam, assuming that it has never progressed with the times either. LOL
But the point is moot INRE forced conversion. There were Muslims here since before this nation was born. Not unusual considering the age of Islam as either a religion, or a body politic, as some of you prefer to describe it.
When then brings me to this comment:
To the quote that “really got” you: I think that all depends on what you consider extraordinary contributions. I’m one that believes a corporate success – or America’s overall – is fully dependent upon the quality of America’s backbone – the working man and their tenancious work ethic and attempts to better their lot. Therefore I also believe that the wealth and success of Founding Fathers’ ranches and farms were attributable directly to the help… much of which were slaves.
So do you wish to argue that America’s success rests only on the executive types to fit your narrative? Or their employees/little “man” that make their success possible?
Now let’s address that “some evidence” bit. Do you not claim “victory” INRE your assertation Rauf is a terrorist supporter by using “some [very thin] evidence”? This then begs me to ask…. is “some evidence” arbitrarily enough, depending upon whether you support the end argument?
In think, drjohn, in the long run, there is no end to the things to assail this bozo-in-chief upon when it comes to dissenting issues. However if we conservatives choose only the petty, and easily debunked ones, we lose ground with the very important swing voter… not gain it.
Apparently not… altho I’m reticent to depend upon Hollywood for actual depiction of history. However it should be an obvious that a mostly Muslim continent of African Americans would include Muslim population. But often, when the heat is on, the “obvious” is deliberately overlooked for political reasons.
@Real American Patriot, since you and I generally clash on issues, I’m also sure we’d agree there’s not a lot of love lost between us. However I feel confident in saying that we both recognize that politics occasionally makes for strange, and sometimes uncomfortable, bedfellows. So I sympathize when you have to agree with me…. 😆 And for the most part, I am tremendously uncomfortable in some of the bedfellows sharing the mattress with conservatives in this over-encompassing anti-Islam vendetta.
Looks like the developer is open to having a discussion with Mayor Patterson about moving the location of the mosque.
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/08/13/2010-08-13_we_can_talk_about_move_sez_mosque.html
My problem with Obama’s speech, was the out-of-context quotes he used from Adams and Jefferson.
-He made it sound like both were just happy-as-clams with what was happening at the time of the utterances.
Adam’s quote was as he had (yet again) paid for hostages taken by Moslem’s*, and Jefferson’s was after we had just made war with that same group, and kicked a lot of ass. (Shores of Tripoli)
The notes left behind by both men make it very clear that neither thought very much of Mohammedeen at that time in history. In fact, to read them and the words of many others, is quite prescient.
(*No I don’t mean all the Moslems)
The premise was that Islam had an influence in the development of this nation, and that is actually beyond dispute; it was the actions of Barbary Muslims that singlehandedly encouraged the creation of the United States Marine Corp.
That was before there was such a thing as liberals. I am not certain how you can conflate a time when slavery was commonplace with current mores. It’s a painful stretch.
And you’re still on the issue of whether Muslims were here or not. I will stipulate that they were here, as slaves. Then again, it wasn’t “America.”
The moral equivalence with Rauf and evidence is more conflation.
No, and it’s nonsensical to put those words in my mouth, or my computer anyway. I am saying that Obama’s words were woefully inaccurate with the “extraordinary contributions” thing. Nothing you’ve written contradicts that. What you have written is a concerted effort to draw one away from the premise.
drjohn, what the heck do “liberals”… more a state of mind than party… have to do with Christians engaging in “forced conversions” to that religion? Here I thought you had a problem with forced conversions. Apparently not… at least when it’s not supposedly forced conversion to Islam.
You’re parsing words to inflate import to Obama’s words that Muslims have been present on our continental US since the beginning – *prior* to slavery in Spanish colonial America (think Florida…) – and dancing around whether they had to be leaders in order to be considered influential or “extraordinary”. Personally, if “extraordinary in your view has to be some sort of historical leader to contribute to the nation’s greatness, that’s a severe form of snobbery.
Wouldn’t it just be easier to have simply ignored a desperate diss at Obama over nothing? You most certainly can take issue that Obama doesn’t share you view of the Cordoba House (surprise, surprise). But this is just bogus parsing of words INRE history by both you and the WA Times – and is nothing but pure nonsense…
We have bigger fish to fry than whether Obama blows his nose today, or not. And this is about that important.
While it is certain that some of the African slaves that were imported into America were Muslims, there are no meaningful records and any estimates of the percentages are pure speculation. Here is an author that estimates around ten percent: http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/twenty/tkeyinfo/islam.htm.
However, he cites nothing to back up that number. I find it interesting that Islam, which treats conversion from its tenants as apostasy punishable severely, never took hold in Brazil or the Caribbean or in the three Honduras’s or essentially anywhere where African slaves were imported and where they followed Christian and Catholic belief structures. Also, had there been any tenacity toward Islam among the slaves, one might expect that traces of Islamic thought would have found their way into the religious practices among the Southern slaves, the Caribbean and Latin American Christians and Catholics, etc and would have reasserted themselves after emancipation. (Recall that in New Mexico, a significant number of practicing Catholics have discovered that they are descendants of Jews driven out of Spain during the Inquisition, and the discovery was based upon religious practices such as the Jewish Friday nite rituals among others which have been incorporated into their practice of Catholicism). I have read that the practice of Catholicism in Mexico has elements that are traceable to the Indian religions which were ultimately suppressed by Spain. On the other hand, I have never seen any claim that the religious practices in the Caribbean or in Latin American have any traces of Islam. While I certainly give some credence to the argument that the slaves were so deprived of their freedoms that their Islamic inclinations dissipated early on, it remains that the centrality of the church in African American communities existed long before emancipation, and that many of the religious practices of these churches have been argued to have African roots none of which appear to be Islamic in nature.
Thus, I am skeptical that much of Islam traveled to the US as a consequence of the slave trade. Probably Islam’s greatest contribution to the slave trade was that the African slavers were virtually all Muslims and when one thinks about how Islam treats its believers as a coherent community that overrides nationalism but treats non-believers as lower forms, it is difficult to argue that Muslim slavers enslaved other Muslims rather than non-believers, who for the most part followed what we might consider pagen-like or multi-theistic belief structures.
There needs to be a lot firmer factual support for any argument that there was a significant number of Muslims among the American slaves and I simply cannot find any primary sources. There certainly is no support for this claim in the census materials.
The larger issue, however, is that Obama is entirely prevaricating when he argues that Islam has always been part of America or that Muslims were major contributors to the warp and woof of the American fabric. There just aren’t any facts to support those statements. More importantly, it certainly is clear that Islam contributed virtually nothing to the enlightenment or to the industrial revolution or to the flowering of invention that drove the ascendancy of the West. In fact, that ascendancy eclipsed Islam and left its inventiveness moribund to this day. It is the Hindu and the Sikh populations of India that are driving the modernization of that country while Pakistan is mired in its bland past.
I would caution all that Wikipedia and similar open contribution sites are not good sources for information on these subjects as the entries relating to anything Islam and certainly anything Israel are political battlegrounds where the participants are in a public relations battle where truth and scholarship are the primary casualties.
Finally, I don’t have a particular problem with outreach to the Muslim world. Lord knows that a whole lot more meaningful communication would be helpful. However, anyone who argues that the Islamic world and the West are currently playing by the same rules is kidding themselves. Until there is common ground over these rules, that outreach is not likely to be fruitful no matter how sweet the entreaties.
Disturber
What Obama had to say about placing a Mosque at ground zero was perhaps expected; but a failure on his part to yield to the will of the majority of people in America will cost Obama everything he has and force him out. No mosque will be built on or anywhere near ground zero.
Why were the Obama comments expected?
For a man who writes, “The Muslim Call to Prayer is one of the Prettiest Sounds on Earth”, said Barack Obama to the New York Times. What would you expect?
For a man who spent a great deal of time as a youth in Indonesia surrounded by Muslims; his step-father Sotero was Muslin, his uncles and aunts were Muslim, his grandfather was Muslim and his relatives and friends were Muslim. Obama read and recited the Islamic book called the Koran daily. What would you expect?
For a man that says America is no longer a Christian nation, despite the statistical fact that almost 80% of American’s relate to Christianity in some way. What would you expect? In truth, Muslims are not more than .06 to less than 1.0% of the population in America (est. 2009). Very small percentage of Muslims in America, very small.
On more than one occasion, Obama has had a Freudian slip and declared that he is, or his religion is, Islamic. What would you expect?
Both Obama and Bloomberg have the right idea. This is a religious question. However, remember that there is NO imperative that a mosque be built in the area called ground zero. And, as a matter of tolerance, we can say that those Muslims that want to build a mosque in New York can build it elsewhere. That is tolerance enough and certainly more than the Muslims have for our feelings about ground zero.
And, as for Obama’s declaration that we must allow for religious freedom, I agree. An overwhelming majority of America’s Christians believe that Islam is primitive, of the devil, intolerant, unforgiving and backward. The Koran is proof that Muslims are encouraged to kill infidels rather than tolerate then; and force their religion upon others. Islam is an extremely degenerate set of outdated tenets.
So we have to be tolerant of Muslims when their Islamic ideals call for intolerance; I say NO.
Nevertheless, Christian opinion is strong enough to carry the day and prohibit, by whatever means, the building of a mosque anywhere near ground zero.
And, as long as Obama has declared that we shall have religious freedom, Christians and other dignified non-Muslim individuals will fight openly and freely against everything that Islam and Muslims stands for.
As a matter of fact, we shall pray fervently that the Muslims who don’t give a damn about the sanctity of ground zero can go to hell. Religiously, we shall oppose this plan of theirs with everything we have. And, to those who feel that we should tolerate Muslim’s intolerance regarding respecting our views on ground zero — Obama and Bloomberg and liberal extreme democrats — we American’s will push them out on election day or sooner by any means we can.
American’s have begun their fight to put Islam down as unAmerican; it is part of our religious right and the freedom exercise our beliefs. Amen.
@Disturber: You might find the first couple of pages of this document of interest.
http://www.btcs.wisc.edu/bayoumi.pdf
One of many publications by or financed by the Nation of Islam. Takaya (sp) is I believe the Arabic word for creating history and telling lies to achieve one’s ends. There were approximately 13,000,000 African slaves shipped to the New World. Stories about a few of them does not a movement make. I like to see real evidence as opposed to anecdotes, which while interesting, prove little. You presumably saw the recent letter from Farrakhan to various Jewish leaders blaming them for slavery. I suppose the left will buy into that one also as it fits the mode of the day.
Disturber
“An overwhelming majority of America’s Christians believe that Islam is primitive, of the devil, intolerant, unforgiving and backward.”
I don’t accept that “an overwhelming majority” of America’s Christians believe any such thing.
Vladimir Ilyich Lenin:
“Film is the most powerful weapon”
I would like to hear how you square the Mulsims of Africa and their wholesale slaughter of Christians with compatibility. As far as I can see the head choppers and stone throwers are not compatible with normal human beings. They should live in cages.
Boy don’t those Styrofoam Temples sure look stupid these days. If Obama was your answer, then you seriously need examine how stupid was your question.
Great piece, DrJohn …
@Mata
No dear, you are.
Having 2 or 3 Muslims in Florida was largely inconsequential even according to the article you cited.
You’re kidding, right? Your contributions or mine are are as significant as Thomas Jefferson’s contributions? Or those of Abraham Lincoln? If all of us are “extraordinary” then none of us is.
And you continue to make an argument without the benefit of substance. It reminds me of Clinton allowing all soldiers to wear a black beret so they wouldn’t feel less than those who had earned it. That made them all “extraordinary.”
Mata, this is by far the flimsiest argument I have seen you make here.
9/11 Families Stunned by President’s Support of Mosque at Ground Zero
I find it quite amusing that there are certain groups who demand sensitivity while the rest of us are to be granted none.
And that gives me an idea.
Iran makes human rights’ progress:
Oh but wait- there are reasonable limits:
So tell me again how they’re just like us. Would the US tolerate this in any state today?
This is nuts.
Dr. John,
Great WaPo piece by Michael Gerson. Excerpt:
The entire op-ed is worth reading….imo.
@ Wordsmith
I have a response submitted.
Acknowlegement and recognition are different things from endorsement.
IMO
IS NT IT TRUE, that this building has also an agenda, to teach young future MUSLIM LEADERS how to work to inter connect the MUSLIMS COUNTRYS and AMERICA,with A strong Muslim FAITH,
financed by islamic banks located in SWITZERLANDS who are connected with many enterprises including AL QAEDA financing. this ACCERTING to theworld economic forum.
SO this building would be acting as a platform and network of emerging young MUSLIMS LEADERS
who are commitedto this mission, and have the CAPACITY TO ACT AS CHANGE AGENT.
Just because a man can do something, doesn’t always mean he should. And for someone to do that which he really shouldn’t, tells you more about the man engaging in the doing than it does those opposed to his action(s).
There are many things that man can do in this world. Some of it happen to be things that he shouldn’t, and most of the time, they don’t. Legally speaking, this imam can continue with the building. Ethically speaking, considering the outrage and opposition, no matter what the source of it is, he really shouldn’t build it. By doing so, despite contradictory claims otherwise, it will be seen as a victory to those aligned with al-Queda and the other violent groups claiming to represent Islam. It will be seen as a monument to their terror, that a country they attacked will allow a symbol of their hatred to be built, essentially, at ground zero(don’t get your panties in a wad. I know it isn’t actually at ground zero, but it’s close enough).
Again, man has the ability to do many things in this world, but just because he can doesn’t mean he always should.
@DrJohn, #21: “So tell me again how they’re just like us. Would the US tolerate this in any state today?”
Is the problem Islam, or is it that absolute power is in the hands of fundamentalist lunatics who pervert and misuse Islam? Should the religion itself be condemned for that?
During the 1930s and 1940s, Germany was the most Christianized nation in Europe. By and large Germans continued to think of themselves as Christian, even though Christianity and nazism are so fundamentally incongruous that for most of us this idea simply doesn’t compute.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm
I understand there’s a church in Florida that plans a mass Koran-burning event on September 11. I don’t like the historical parallels. They’re apparently oblivious to to the incongruities.
@Greg
Geez, it’s IRAN. It’s not some eighth world cesspool. It’s a country developing nukes and this is the kind of crap that goes on there?
The problem is that Islam the religion is not separable from Islam the political. Each seeks refuge in the other.
It’s 2010, not 700 AD or even 1939.
So where is Code Pink? Where is NOW?
That is unacceptable. If you can find out where that is, let us know.
@DrJohn:
Here’s the info on that lovely group of people:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/07/29/florida.burn.quran.day/index.html
“That is unacceptable. If you can find out where that is, let us know.”
I’m glad we’re in agreement on that particular point.
That’s a pastor named Terry Jones, of the Dove World Outreach Center, Gainsville FL:
http://theweek.com/article/index/206097/burning-the-koran
Local FoxNews sites have some coverage too, if you Google his name or his church.
Perhaps, “dear”, your flaw is reading. Read again the sentence that so gets your goat….
Yes, Islam has always been a part of America as even Columbus sailed with Muslim captains aboard… Martin Alonso Pinzon and his brother Vicente Yanex Pinzon. In fact, all the first signatories to treaties with foreign nations, recognizing the new America formed after the Revolution, were Muslim countries… Morocco being the first. And we’ve already been thru the fact that Muslims have been present in this nation from the beginning.
The second part of the sentence is that American Muslims have made extraordinary contributions to the nation’s growth. They are not mandated as mutually congruent in time since it was separated by the “and”.
Yet you decide this has to be the founding fathers? Why is that? And apparently, if anyone isn’t one of the original framers or founders, they are somehow less extraordinary in their involvement with this nation’s growth? A lot has happened here since those days.
I repeat… it’s a very snobbish view if one has to be a politician to get that nod from you. Frankly, I consider our military personnel extraordinary, and there are Muslim service men (those who don’t shoot up bases).
As far as Muslim contributions, they span the gamut from science and architecture to sports, music and the military… even as far back in the 1860s, the Calvary hired a scout named Hajj Ali, who came here from Syria. Prior to his scouting tasks for the government, he was working for them, experimenting with breeding and raising camels in the AZ deserts.
Muhammad Ali Ben Said was a member of the 55th Regiment of Massachusetts Colored Volunteers, and rose to the rank of sergeant in the mid 1800s.
Abdul Hakeem Muhammad was a computer scientist with the IRS, and won the “Department of the Army Commander’s Award for Civilian Service” for his work on open standards.
Then there Ahmad Mahmoud, the son of immigrant Eqyptian parents who attended public schools in New Jersey, went on to major in Aerospace Engineering at Rutgers University. Mahmoud was awarded first place for his design project, Multi-surface Adaptable Touch Sensor, from Rutgers. He went on to a NASA internship, and then offered a full time position with the Cryogenics department. I wrote about that in my NASA outreach post. What bothered me about that was Obama and company, running around saying NASA couldn’t cut the mustard anymore without the help of other nations.
Dr. Fazlur Rahman Khan designed both the John Hancock Center and Sears Tower in Chicago, and Shell Plaza in Houston, all back in the early 70s.
In sports there is Muhammad Ali and Kareem, of course.
No doubt, if you dig around, there’s always examples of some who have contributed to the advancement of this nation… and who also happened to be Muslim.
I think your first egregious error is reading that statement to assume he was speaking only of the Revolutionary era, and not encompassing our couple of centuries of growth since then. Your second egregious error? Blowing this up to be about flawed history… when that is clearly your problem.
Nor can you criticize Obama’s Ramadan dinner, unless you’d also like to expand the same criticism for the eight Ramadan dinners Dubya also hosted.
As far as his statements? Did you honestly think he’d say anything different? He laid out the facts that you so do not wish to hear… that while religious freedom doesn’t mean you can build anywhere you like, they have already gone thru the local procedures and met all the legal requirements to build right there. Find it offensive? Join the crowd. But then, this offensive act has sure brought the “ugly” out in far too many conservatives… and at a very inconvenient time.
Would I like them to change the location – if for nothing else than to get everyone to refocus on the fiscal impacts of this election? Dang straight, I would. But the only one who has done that respectfully, and diplomatically is Palin. So I doubt the rest of the conservative leadership and blog world is doing much to encourage that outcome, save by fanning the fire of the media bully pulpit.
t’would be much better if they were asked, without all the hype about Islam this, Muslims that, Rauf’s a terrorist bit. And most definitely if done without whipping up the anti-Islam sentiment in the name of conservatives.
As to Greg’s comment INRE burning Qur’ans… Aye’s provided the links to the Dove World Outreach Center… obviously a name that is either an oxymoron, or a tongue in cheek joke. Then, of course, there’s also the Jacksonville, FL Islamic cultural center bombing back on May 10th… coincidently just a few days after Spencer’s Jihad Watch started reporting on the Cordoba House.
@Greg
I think there are a lot of scholars out there who would disagree with you on this. There is quite a bit of evidence contrary to what you state.
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0110.htm
Kirchenaustritt, or the opting off of the church roles, pertained mainly to Catholics, although Protestants were allowed to as well. This was made available in 1873 for German citizens by Bismarck, and continued well into the 1930’s and 1940’s, and, in fact, 1939 saw the highest number of Kirchenaustritte when it reached almost half a million.
To relate countries such as Iran with Hitler’s Germany and talk about the religious natures of both just doesn’t mesh well. In Germany, there was no state-sponsored church, let alone a christian ideology that perverted beliefs to include the killing of millions of Jews. That was purely a racist ideology pursued by the Nazi’s and nothing more. In Iran, and other like countries, you have a melding of church and state that is so pervasive that those country’s political heads do nothing without permission from their religious leaders.
@Johh Galt 32
Intersting take… but IMO it was just a matter of the thrust of the philosophy. Hitler wanted himself, and the State, to replace the church, and yet be “worshiped like it… Even his weirder SS Officers with their Cermonies (religious trappings) were aimed towards worthiping the Race, and State…
Islam takes a different tact… they use Sharia Law, and Islam, to stymie any dissent against the State… which is wrapped in a Religion…
So, IMO, one was a State trying to take the place of religion…. while one is a State USING religion as an enforcment tool.
@Romeo
Regardless, Greg’s assertion that Germany used Christianity as Iran does Islam is off-base with history and knowledge concerning the Nazi’s and Hitler.
What you state does have truth to it in the fact that some members of Hitler’s Nazi party issued a program detailing the formation of a national church during WWII.
MISSY: hi, I TASTED A jar of zucini jam from my neighbord farmer, and it was delicious, she put oranges and lemons in it, I will buy some more this year.
JAPANEESE ANEMONE, wow, thoses are very fussy hard to start, they are the aristocrats of the garden center here: OH NO you are not to touch them, give them some veggies neighbords,
but let them live on the name of mother nature. bye
The only thing of note that muslims have done in this country is blow up buildings and kill our citizens. A scout for the Army in the 1800s don’t cut it.
THIS above 35 was suppose to be on WEEKLY OPEN THREAD
@Minuteman26 36
Ah, come on… they did more than that! They gave Jefferson a reason to build up the US Navy…
And we got a really cool song because of them….. you know…
/starts to sing…
From the Halls of Montezuma, to the SHORES OF TRIPOLI!!!
@ Mata
Sorry, no sale.
Contributions? Yes. Extraordinary? No. And you had to dig all day for them.
Lew Alcindor and Cassius are converts.
I made no assumptions about to what he referred. As to the history, I am in agreement with WaTi.
I had to “dig all day for them”??
drjohn, I’m not the one with time on my hands to write a ga’zillion one trick monkey cut/paste posts for FA on “da mosque”.
Someone please tell me what contributions to American society, or for that matter, to the betterment of the world, Muslims have made. Any scientific achievements? Any inventions?
I know that sounds simplistic, people,but I am really curious if there are any historic or scientific honors that have been bestowed on a Muslim based on scientific achievements. I am not saying that there are none. I am simply asking whether anyone can tell me what they are.
@DKK:
Here are some.
More here.
More.
Here are some more.
More here as well.
That’s kinda what I thought, but did not want to assume…this can be a tough crowd 😉
A.C.#42 BEAUTIFUL YOU ARE THE TERMINATOR
AYE CHIHUAHUA: hi, I agree with PSYCHO something, but WHO sais of thoses reports
MEANING where do they originate from?. bye
@Greg #30:
A friend of mine who is French-Muslim posted on her FB a CNN video of Jones being interviewed over this. Her commentary? Did she write in a rage: “Kill the infidel pig!!!”? Nope. She writes: “HAHA what he needs is to get a life!!!” Her Muslim friends are writing comments in similar spirit, with one guy writing “When it comes to crazy pastors like this one, Muslims should take a leaf from their Christian cousins and turn the other cheek (Matthew 5:38-40)… “