Photo credit: El Marco
“Ground Zero Mosque” (neither a mosque nor at Ground Zero)….”Cordoba House”….Park51…”Monument to Mohammed” (As Mike’s America so affectionately calls it)….
Is this really about “insensitivity” to 9/11 families, a “slap in the face”, dishonoring the memories of the victims by being a “monument to terrorism” and planting the flag of Islam on American “hallowed ground”? Or is it about striking a blow at the ones who are actually responsible for the events of 9/11? A rejection of extremism and terrorism? Or simply a much needed community center for locals living in Lower Manhattan?
The center is not at Ground Zero but two blocks away, and the Cordoba Initiative seeks to build a center, not a mosque. The center is not designed as a local mosque for a Muslim community but rather to serve the wider community.
It is meant to improve interfaith and Muslim-West relations and promote tolerance — not just to provide services to Muslims.
Yet don’t let facts stop the Islamo-conspiracists from calling it a “mosque”.
Here’s how Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf describes and defends it (Oh, but beware the Sufi Islamist engaged in the Shia practice of taqiyya!):
The project has been mischaracterized, so I want to explain clearly what it would be. Our planned 13-story community center is intended for Park Place between Church St. and West Broadway. It is not a mosque, although it will include a space for Muslim prayer services. It will have a swimming pool, basketball court, meeting rooms, a 500-seat auditorium, banquet facilities and many other things a community needs to be healthy. The center will offer theatrical programming, art exhibitions and cooking classes. These are amenities missing now from this part of the city.
And, yes, the center will have a public memorial to the victims of 9/11 as well as a meditation room where all will be welcome for quiet reflection. The center will support soul and body.
The center will be open to all regardless of religion. Like a YMCA, the 92nd St. Y or the Jewish Community Center uptown, it will admit everyone. It will be a center for all New Yorkers.
Sharif el-Gamal, CEO of SoHo Properties and lead developer of the Park 51 project, in an interview:
2. Why must the project necessarily include a mosque? Wouldn’t a general prayer area, which could be reserved in advance by any religious group, be more appropriate and compatible with the community-centric interfaith mission of the project?
We will include a September 11th memorial and quiet reflection space where people of different faith traditions and beliefs, sacred and secular, can find quiet time and solace. Park51 will also include general spaces and world-class facilities for all New Yorkers to benefit from, whether that’s a Hebrew class meeting weekly or a yoga studio looking for space on a regular basis. We’ll have an auditorium to engage large audiences, and sophisticated classroom space as well.
With respect to the mosque, which will take up only a small portion of the final space, it’s a question of meeting a need. This mosque will be open to all. There are probably one million Muslims in the tri-state area and several hundred thousand in New York City. We should understand that Muslim New Yorkers are part of the city and have been for a very long time. Just a few days ago, I stopped to pray at a midtown mosque, and the congregation was led by a New York City Police Officer. He was a Muslim serving our city, keeping us safe.
There’s hundreds of thousands of Muslim New Yorkers like him. We’re doctors, lawyers, businessmen, cab drivers, teachers and students. That’s what people need to know.
~~~this is going to be a community center. Park51 is not a political organization. We do not have a political agenda, and we will be open to all New Yorkers. What we do not have room for are extremist views and opinions. Radical and hateful agendas will have no place in our community center or in the mosque. We are building this center for New York City, because we’re New Yorkers. We’re Americans. We have families here and futures here.
~~~Park51 is an independent project led by Muslim Americans. This project will be separate from The Cordoba Initiative and ASMA. The next step is forming a non-profit and applying for tax-exempt status. Imam Feisal and I are serving as the project managers until then. This non-profit will be run by an Executive Director, yet to be selected, support staff, and a 23-member Board of Directors.
Imam Feisal will be one of the Directors, and will oversee the Cordoba House, which will direct the interfaith programming within Park51.. We have not yet selected the other members of the Board of Directors, but we will be picking people very carefully, based on their record of leadership, relevant experience and positive contribution to New York City and the country. The board will not be limited by religion.
The mosque will be run by a separate non-profit whose Board of Directors will reflect a broad range of experience. While the mosque will be located in the planned final structure of Park51, it will be a distinct non-profit. Neither Park51 nor the mosque, which hasn’t been named yet, will tolerate any kind of illegal or un-American activity and rhetoric.
~~~6. Why was the site’s proximity to Ground Zero considered a “selling point” [3] ? What other locations in lower Manhattan, if any, were considered that could serve the same purpose?
We are not at Ground Zero. In fact we’re as close to City Hall as we are to Ground Zero. Lower Manhattan is pretty small. You can’t see Ground Zero from our current building and on completion of our planned building some years from now, there won’t be any views of the Ground Zero memorial from the building. To honor those who were killed on September 11th, we have planned for a public memorial within our future facility as well as reflection space open to all.
Let me tell you a little bit about the history of this project. We’d been looking for at least seven years to find a space to accommodate the growing population of Muslims in lower Manhattan. We found this site in January of 2006 and getting to the finish line and acquiring the real estate was proof that persistence pays off. We had also been eager to contribute to the revitalization of lower Manhattan, in part because this is our area of business and also because as New Yorkers we wanted to give back to our city and help make it a better place to live.
Prior to purchasing our current facility at 45 Park Place, there were two mosques in lower Manhattan – although Park51 is not affiliated with either of these mosques. One was Masjid Farah, which could fit a maximum of approximately 65 people, and had to hold three or four separate prayer services on Fridays just to fit the crowds.
The second mosque, at Warren St., accommodated about 1,500 worshippers during Friday prayers – people had been praying on sidewalks because they had no room. They lost their space around May 2009. We made the move to buy 45 Park Place in July 2009 in part to offset the loss of this space. Currently, our space at 45 Park Place, accommodates around 450 people every Friday. We are also easily accessible from many different parts of Manhattan, Brooklyn, and Staten Island, which was an important consideration.
At the same time, we thought, why not give back to lower Manhattan and fulfill a pressing need? We looked for a building that could grow into a community center. In Lower Manhattan, the biggest community center is at Bowery and Houston and it’s in a basement. There are new residential towers going up in lower Manhattan as we speak. Four Seasons is planning the tallest residential tower in the city a block away from our site. If you think of all of the community centers in Manhattan, they are further north. Residents need services, investment in the neighborhood, activities and opportunities. Community Board 1, which represents the residents of lower Manhattan, acknowledged the needs we were fulfilling when they gave us their clear support on two separate occasions.
~~~Islam has a long history in lower Manhattan. And fundamentally, this project embodies the very same American values that those who attacked us on 9-11 sought to deny.
How many oppose the building of this so-called “mosque” at Ground Zero (…er…two blocks from it, I mean) out of concern that radical Islamists are behind the funding and that Rauf is not the “moderate” he portrays himself as being?
Photo by El Marco
And how much of the opposition is fueled by those who simply don’t tolerate mosque building and Islam ANYWHERE in the States? Irregardless of supposed Muslim Brotherhood connections, ties to extremists, political Islam and wahhabism, etc.?
Metro Nashville School Board member Karen Johnson is leading opposition to a new Islamic Center that would move into the vacant Carmike Theater on Bell Forge Lane in Antioch.
Johnson launched a petition drive today for neighbors to oppose the move, even though the Islamic Center of Tennessee already has a contract in place to purchase the building.
~~~This is the third instance of residents opposing an Islamic center or Muslim mosque from moving in this year. In Williamson County, a proposal for an Islamic Center was withdrawn after public opposition. In Murfreesboro, a proposal for a new mosque is moving forward despite vocal opposition from residents there. That proposed site is on land zone for a religious use.
Plans for a new Islamic center south of Murfreesboro have some residents denouncing the Muslim religion and others calling the dispute one of the ugliest displays of religious intolerance in the county’s history.
Questions of whether the public was given adequate notice about the proposed mosque and community center off Bradyville Pike quickly turned into attacks on the Muslim faith during the public comment portion of Thursday’s Rutherford County Commission meeting.
“Everybody knows they are trying to kill us,” Karen Harrell said. “People are really concerned about this. Somebody has to stand up and take this country back.”
In June 2010, a Tennessee Republican candidate, Lou Ann Zelenik, opposed the Muslim community’s proposal to build a mosque in Murfreesboro, charging the Muslim center was not part of a religious movement, but a political one “designed to fracture the moral and political foundation of Middle Tennessee.”
She warned, “Until the American Muslim community find it in their hearts to separate themselves from their evil, radical counterparts, to condemn those who want to destroy our civilization and will fight against them, we are not obligated to open our society to any of them. “
Planned Temecula Valley mosque draws opposition:
“The Islamic foothold is not strong here, and we really don’t want to see their influence spread,” said Pastor Bill Rench.
“There is a concern with all the rumors you hear about sleeper cells and all that. Are we supposed to be complacent just because these people say it’s a religion of peace? Many others have said the same thing,” he said.
Leaders of the Islamic center were surprised by the level of criticism, especially from a few religious groups, saying their current makeshift mosque and Islamic community center have been in town for more than a decade and members always have felt welcome.
“Our children go to the same schools their children go to. We shop at the same stores where they shop,” said Mahmoud Harmoush, the imam of the Islamic center and an instructor at Cal State San Bernardino’s World Languages and Literatures Department.
“All of a sudden our neighbors wake up and they’re opposed to us building the Islamic center there, the mosque. I hope it’s a small group,” he said.
Also:
A recent series of unsigned emails and anonymous Web postings has called for a protest during Friday prayers outside the Islamic Center of Temecula Valley, in Riverside County. Protest organizers are upset at the Islamic group’s plans to build a new mosque to replace its current makeshift mosque.
One of the emails, obtained by CAIR, declared: “Islam is not a religion. It is a worldwide political movement meant [sic] on domination of the world. And it is meant to subjugate all people under Islamic law….”
The email goes on to say that Muslims “hate dogs. … Tennessee was able to stop the Mosque so bring your Bibles, flags, signs, dogs and singing voice on Friday.”
Opposition to mosques in the U.S., on the rise:
Protests about the building of mosques are relatively new, says Joe Feagin, a professor on racial and ethnic relations at Texas A and M University in College Stations.
“I don’t remember seeing any discussions of protests and attacks on mosques until 9/11,” he says.
But, since then, he says much of the discussion of Middle Eastern people is negative.
INRE the Ground Zero mosque… interesting you bring that up since that caused quite the uproar in FA familia spirited debate not too long ago. However everyone that casually says “just build it elsewhere” hasn’t figured out that the trend to ban, or severely harass mosque and their included cultural centers, has been increasing post 911. TN is battling mosques in their state… any location. Boston is royally PO’d about the mosque being built there. In 2008, a senior Church of England member wanted an outright ban on mosques in Britain in fears of becoming “…an Islamic state”. In 2007, Austria’s governor of Carinthia was attempting to ban them in his province. And as of May 2008, a more than hefty amount of Euro nations i.e. Italy, France, Britan and Switzerland, were all raising a ruckus for mosque building.
Has anyone stopped to think that building this “Islamic Community Center” in this location might be a bad idea because it represents a target?
Yup.
It’s a fair point, and one of the reasons why I thought, “this is a really bad idea”. It’s just asking for trouble. And should a misguided nutjob vandalize/bomb the Islamic Center, it will be a feather in the cap for the global jihad movement.
And when you have Geller and the “pitchfork and torches” mob holding up some pretty inflammatory signs, it’s going to inspire some of the wrong types to think they’ll be doing a noble, patriotic, necessary act to “defend” the nation by attacking a community center, built and funded by those of the Islamic faith. Because they’ve been told it’s “a mosque”; a “slap in the face” to the family members of 9/11 victims; a “victory flag for Islam”; a “monument to mohammed”.
Mike had that thread’s comment section shut down. Lightbringer subsequently wrote #113:
@Wordsmith
To tell the truth, this will turn into a symbol to be used by the Islamists as propaganda whether it is built and remains safe, it is built and then attacked, or it gets canceled. And that is regardless of whether Rauf is in on the joke or not.
I’ve been saying this since the first post that was made on the topic. And it’s because of the volume of the opposition that has some pretty vitriolic elements to the rhetoric. The “Stop the Islamization of America” brigade has made this a win-win situation for the jihadis. If it gets built, they can claim a kind of victory because so many Americans are saying “this is a slap in the face to 9/11 victims”. No it isn’t. Unless that’s the perception you want to take and run with.
If it doesn’t get built due to the pressures of the vocal opposition (rather than on account of a legal basis), then the jihadis still win because their propaganda against the U.S.- that Muslims are persecuted by American imperialists- appears to have some merit in this.
A former fetus, the “wordsmith from nantucket” was born in Phoenix, Arizona in 1968. Adopted at birth, wordsmith grew up a military brat. He achieved his B.A. in English from the University of California, Los Angeles (graduating in the top 97% of his class), where he also competed rings for the UCLA mens gymnastics team. The events of 9/11 woke him from his political slumber and malaise. Currently a personal trainer and gymnastics coach.
The wordsmith has never been to Nantucket.
If it’s not a mosque, let’s see someone bring in a dog.
Or alcohol.
We’ll see.
According to the Rainbow-Push Coalition of the American-Muslim world, CAIR:
As for alcohol, I think if they are takfiri terrorists, all the forbidden norms don’t apply.
In case you missed it.
http://article.nationalreview.com/438616/raufs-dawa-from-the-world-trade-center-rubble/andrew-c-mccarthy
http://www.forbes.com/2010/07/30/imam-faisal-ground-zero-mosque-money-opinions-columnists-claudia-rosett_2.html
One of the aspects of the opposition is the fact that islam has a history of co-opting or just generally taking over non- muslim holy sites and making them their own.
That being said, if a compromise could be met, an easy one would be to build the center without a mosque, this is resolvable.
Your point that this has been over-emotionalized is true, but is also inevitable. It is still 9/12/01 in New York and many places.
Oh yes, calling it a “community center” makes it o.k. Alright, I give in…..NOT!
Obama called his massive Democrat handout to his union buddies and supporters an economic “stimulus” bill didn’t he? And we all know what a lie that was.
Once again, you just keep twisting much of the opposition to this MOSQUE until you make a pretzel out of it.
If Newt Gingrich, Sarah Palin, Liz Cheney, Rep. Peter King, Rick Lazio and all the GOP leaders who have come out opposing this mosque are wrong then I am happy to be wrong in their company. Two opinion polls show majorities in New York oppose this mosque.
You, Wordsmith, have climbed into bed with the usual liberal bedwetters. That should have been your first clue that perhaps you need to rethink your instant and reflexive defense of this mosque.
As Newt, an expert historian, points out this “Cordoba” project is a symbol of Muslim conquest in the same way that Muslims coverted cathedrals in captured lands into mosques. Ground Zero is sacred ground to Americans and standing by while Muslims with suspicious links to radicals and pro-Shariah law to plant their flag at Ground Zero and build a monument to Mohammed set to open on the 10th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks is WRONG!
If this project really is about showing tolerance and bridging the divide then they can build it elsewhere.
Here’s the poll of our readers on this subject:
Are they all emotional, ignorant, bigoted people?
Not everyone justifies their opinion by “the herd mentality”, Mike… least of all by revering atheist comedians. And yes, you’ve attempted holding his “expertise” up before to justify your own opinion.
Have I shown the Pat Condell video yet? This guy video blogging from Britain is great!
P.S. I hear they are planning a restaurant in this “community center.” You think these folks will get the franchise?
or how about these guys?
@Mike’s America:
Three simple questions:
1) Do we base decisions in this country on opinion polling or the Constitution and the rule of law?
2) Outside of an argument based in law, how does one square opposition to this mosque with the Conservative principles of maximum freedom, limited interference, and Constitutional governance?
3) If arguments against the mosque are not based on the law what are they based on?
@DrJohn, Claudia Rosett – apparently also snagging you in her misfortunate education – is ill-informed on Cordoba Initiative’s history, and their years of interfaith events since 2003.
And I see Mike’s added a couple more frat humor photobucket selections to his revered atheist comedian expert. LOL What’s-a-matter, Mike… can’t locate all those extra wives you attempted to slander Rauf with back a few threads ago?
@MataHarley:
Yes….three, four, five, six…or is it seven(?) threads into this discussion nothing has changed.
Rauf’s mystical extra wives must be hiding out there somewhere along with O’Bungler’s jobs, the oil from the Gulf, the still-living Elvis, and the answers to my exit questions.
Some things never change, eh?
@MataHarley: Did I make a crack about Rauf’s wives?
Instead of rehashing that, perhaps you could offer an explanation of how to square Rauf’s views on the U.S. becoming more Shariah compliant with the U.S. Constitution?
You’re behind in your reading… just as you didn’t bother to read Wordsmith’s post prior to pulling up your Saddam pic, Mike. We’ve already pointed out to you, multiple times, that Rauf is very solidly on record that both the US Constitution and a democratic form of government is Shariah compliant. It just tends to blow thru one ear and out the other without encountering any mass.
This is completely the opposite of the real enemy – the global jihad movement (with sundry quotes from my 2008 Sea2Sea post.)
Your problem comprehending it all comes from a western/infidel point of view. You insist you know more about Islam, as it’s practiced by western Muslims, than they do. They have their own problems with Shariah and some US laws… i.e. a divorce via US laws is not recognized by their religious law.
So instead of digging thru your garden for last years scarecrow, why don’t you show us your stellar research that Rauf is attempting to implement such Shariah punishment as stoning, beheading, etal…. as you suggest. That oughta keep you busy a long time.
The fact remains that the First Amendment guarantees Freedom of Religion.
As long as Our Nation remains a Land of Laws and bastion of Freedom, the Local Authorities
in NYFC approved of the construction and location of the Cultural Center, it can be built,
regardless of the lack of “sensitivity” shown by it’s supporters. Insensitive as it may be,
We are a Land of Freedom and Laws. I defend the Right to Freedom of Religion and Worship
as long as it does not violate existing settled Law as the Bill of Rights certainly is, or threaten National Security any more than Team Obama has already done.
Let the rock throwing continue here at FA but recognize that settled and existing Law should
not be ignored. I’m just waiting for existing and settled Constitutional Law to be recognized by Congress, the Senate and the Current Presidential Regime in regards to Limits of Power, Immigration Law Enforcement and Government over reach into the Private Sector of our rapidly failing economy.
But then again, what do I know. I’m just an old Grunt and an over the hill Cow Puncher whose Cow Punching was rudely interrupted by decades of failed Foreign Policy and the 9.11.01 event
that interrupted my retirement.
PS: My Daughter will never wear a Burqua. She is on a path to wear Air Force Blue and become a pilot. She keeps both the US Constitution and her Bible close.
Denying them their mosque does not deny them their freedom of religion. They don’t need a mosque at all to worship their god, as we see everyday in the subway when they pull out their mats.
I guess you support the Crescent of Embrace, too?
Can’t wait for Newsweek to come out with a cover “We’re All Dhimmis Now”
@MataHarley: You’re right Mata. I don’t justify my response by the herd mentality SINCE I WAS OUT FRONT ON THIS BEFORE THE PEOPLE I LISTED!!!!
However, it’s nice to see so many leaders I TRUST following the same path I walked down previously.
And if you don’t like Pat Condell, I wonder what you will say about a man who has a Bacherlors, Masters and PhD in history:
@Old Trooper 2: I see they found you just in time. There is no freedom of religion issue here. They can build that mosque anywhere else and most of the opposition to it would vanish.
Funny that we still haven’t seen the Greek Orthodox Church at Ground Zero rebuilt.
There goes the freedom of religion argument.
Now, if someone can tell me how allowing Shariah Law to precede the U.S. Constitution is a good idea?
More from St. Nicholas Church:
http://www.stnicholasnyc.com/
@MataHarley: You can keep repeating those flawed talking points until you are blue in the face. But obviously, that soap isn’t selling.
Instead of seeking the answers to the reasonable questions continue to be asked, you focus instead on the more heated and emotional arguments some put forth and use that as a distraction.
All that does is create more smoke around an issue where many suspect fire is not far away.
Mike, your only justification of your opinion is two fold:
1: thin sliver threads of 6 degree of separation between Rauf and associations that are shared elsewhere among lib/progs and non Muslims… as well as even our elected officials and notable Foundations and charities.
2: Constant harping of how many people agree with you
One would think if you have even an breadth of sustainable argument as to reversing and or not accepting our rule of law (legal decision by authorities that the Cordoba House is within legal scope), you might answer Aye’s questions. Instead you dodge them, and parrot who agrees with you. And you scrape the bottom of the barrel even doing that.
And BTW, quit lumping Palin with Newt. Why not show me where Palin, in her opposition, has spoken out again Islam or Rauf as you and Newt, Pam Geller etal have? Very classy lady there… she merely made a plea for Muslims to reconsider their decisions because so many Americans, like you, took it the wrong way.
Lastly, you have “been in front” of nothing. Even your “monument to” has been used with sundry following interchangeable words… i.e. Islam, victory, jihad, etc. In fact, you’re a few years behind Geller… you know, the lady of Atlas Shrugs that you say you never heard of?
And yes… you tried some snide allusion to Rauf’s multiple wives back in the June 1st thread on this… Desperate measures call for desperate arguments. Ain’t archives wonderful?
I remember the WW2 vets and their anger. I also remember when the first imports arrived from Japan. Made in Japan was an insult and a phrase of derision for not only Japanese products, but anything that was substandard: then the transistor radios came on the market and people bought them and loved them. Later on on the mid-sixties, Nissan and Toyota came out with cars and trucks, people stopped with the ethnic jokes. Germans never lost their engineering abilities or their craftsmanship, their optics and weapons were the best in the world; however, when the funny looking “People’s Car” (some say Hitler’s concept), started appearing on our roadways people laughed; but the laughter died down when the little cars ran for twenty years or more and American automotive engineers were embracing the concept of ‘planned obsolescence’.
Now our former most bitter enemies would be intrepid allies if Obama wasn’t intent on alienating them.
Many former soldiers of the German army came to Canada and especially to the Peace River country because of the name, they were extremely grateful to have a second chance at life and were model citizens; although, there was one that had been a member of The Hitler Youth, that I thought I might need to kill one day. He is gone now, so that worry is over, but to have one bad apple from thousands is not bad.
One of the Germans told me he was from a small town of hardheaded farmers and when the draft started there was a young lad who refused to be inducted. A few days later, a National Socialist squad car pulled into town, put him against a wall and shot him, no one else resisted the draft. I often think of those country boys and their valiant if futile stand against Hitler.
This circumlocution is to point out, that unless we always want to be at war with Islam Radicals, at some point we will need to be conciliatory and perhaps blaming one billion people for the action of 100,000 (hypothetical number) is wrong and against our way of life.
Try to think of the hatred and venom of those WW2 Vets (who I Love) that was directed at our present (albeit barely) allies, especially after a couple of drinks.
@MataHarley: You can continue to mischaracterize my opposition to this all you want and make phony conflations between my view and those with other motives all day long.
It doesn’t make your case stronger. It makes your case weaker.
P.S. Just because Palin hasn’t used the same words Newt has doesn’t mean she is not opposed to this mosque. Don’t be silly!
Talk about mischaracterization… OMG… here’s the kettle in an self possessed indignant rage. LOL
What you persist in doing, Mike, is losing perspective on my own views, as well as Aye’s and Wordsmith’s. Reading Palin’s words on the subject, she is opposed to it just like we are. She hasn’t demeaned Islam, Rauf, Muslims etal like you and your ilk have done. If you want to claim Palin on your side as not liking Cordoba House one bit, you’d have to claim us too, because we don’t like the building location either. She’s asked them to change their minds. Period. I’d be happy as a clam if they changed their minds myself.
But unlike you, I’m not going to use anti-Islam hate filled speech, false accusations, and other Obama’esque Alinsky tactics to force them into it…. like SOIA did with the Staten Island mosque (not community center), and putting pressure on the church officials for selling it to Muslims. (Guess that was too too close to ground zero too, eh?)
The difference between you and I (which, at this point also includes Palin) is you aren’t willing to accept our rule of law and founding principles for something you don’t like. We recognize they have the rights to develop their property – with zoning laws and regulations – and that is a local decision. You don’t… nor are you content to let the rule of law stand, and insist in joining Geller and Spencer in keeping this a hot topic, and a real loser for conservatives while being a big win for both lib/progs and jihad alike.
Again, you dodge real questions (aka where has Palin maligned Rauf or Islam, like you?) with some arrogant arbitrator style post. Here’s a reality you choose to ignore. Wordsmith, myself and Aye have all put forth our objections to the mosque, and begrudging acceptance of it based on examining the legal process the building went thru, and recognizing that altering those laws to halt the mosque because they are Muslims and it’s Islam, is against our founding principles. We’ve cited a plethora of studies, history, articles.
What have you done? Little posts saying how we’ve “lost the argument” and that our case is “weak” or “weaker”. Based on what? ‘Cus *you* say so? Because you see yourself at the head of the herd you depend upon for substantiation?
Anyone with an open mind can go back over all the threads and discussions, and see who is presenting a cogent argument, and who’s playing the emotional Alinsky game.. peppered with cute little photobucket jpgs so that your personal insults can be passed off as frat humor. Personally, when it comes to facts, your butt has been booted to the moon.
When it comes to arguing emotions? Well, there are a lot of people that agree with you… their emotions about Muslim and Islam overwhelm their respect for our founding principles and rule of law. While I can understand that emotion… somewhat… I don’t have the shortsighted vision ya’ll do.
Pam Geller has a better solution to this divisive problem at ground zero:
They haven’t already?
Newt at AEI on the Ground Zero Mosque:
@Skookum: Did we reach out to the Japanese in the middle of the war and say: Well, some of you may be against the war so we are going to look the other way as war continues to be waged against us?”
No.
This is not to say that I believe we are at war with every Muslim. Quite the contrary.
And none of this has any bearing on the propriety of building a monument to Mohammed at Ground Zero.
It’s not showing conciliation or tolerance to allow this mosque to be built. It’s showing that we don’t understand the enemy we face.
Another clip from Newt’s great speech at AEI this past week. Cue to the 2:10 mark:
“Willfully hiding from reality” is how Newt describes the deniers.
@Mike’s America:
Nope, we gathered those of Japanese heritage in this country and interned them, lumping them all in together with the guilty ones…..
Gosh, doesn’t that line of thinking sound awfully familiar?
Three simple questions:
1) Do we base decisions in this country on opinion polling or the Constitution and the rule of law?
2) Outside of an argument based in law, how does one square opposition to this mosque with the Conservative principles of maximum freedom, limited interference, and Constitutional governance?
3) If arguments against the mosque are not based on the law what are they based on?
@billhedrick:
I take it you mean 9/10/01? 😉
@Mike’s America #5:
Well….do you have a more accurate rather than inflammatory and misleading description for it? I’m open to one.
Y’all shrilled conspiratorially over “Cordoba House”, so walking on eggshells around the Islamophobes, Park51 might be as good a name as any. Of course, nothing gets the base riled up like calling it “Ground Zero Mosque”.
The only reason I don’t mind using that inaccurate label is because at least we all know to what we are referring to when talking about it. But it is a distorted label designed to incite emotions.
Well, gee, Mike….Juan Cole and Howard Zinn’s got them credentials as well…don’t see you citing them as “expert historians”.
Is Newt’s field of historical expertise on the Middle East and Middle Ages or on Modern European history?
You don’t need a degree to know about Cordoba. However, like my Christopher Columbus analogy, your perspective and perception of what Cordoba represents may not be the same one held by others.
You see it as representative of Muslim conquest and imperial overreach and subjugation. Someone like Rauf doesn’t see it this way. And this has been repeated to you time and time again, but your opinion never evolves. La Raza and afrocentrists have a romanticized view of their own ancestral past; and you and I believe in American exceptionalism. I’m sure lots of people would disagree and point out America’s own “Cordoba” examples of imperialism.
Mike….?…..seriously? Are you for real?! And the significance of this is…..what exactly? 😕
And yet Mike says I’m the one who should be doing standup comedy. 😆
al Qaeda thanks you for your intolerance and refusal to allow Muslims who they look upon as apostates the chance and opportunity to “bridge the divide”.
@Mike’s America#6:
Yes.
He makes no distinction between Islam and “radical” Islam. Yet you say you do. Can you not see a disconnect here?
@Aye Chihuahua #24:
Today, instead of the “loyalty oath”, they’re in a tithy because Rauf and most Muslim leaders here aren’t signing a “freedom pledge”.
Some information on Cordoba so one can ponder why the organization that wants to build this community centre is named such.
BBC, not too shabby – http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/spain_1.shtml
Medieval Sourcebook, the Conquest of Spain – http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/conqspain.html
Christian Martyrs in Spain – http://libro.uca.edu/martyrs/cm1.htm
@Mike’s America:
That’s right Mike. There are a variety of very reasonable questions which continue to be asked:
Yet they continue to be ignored while you focus on the more heated and emotional arguments.
Why is that?
Purposely and repeatedly avoiding those questions pulls the curtain back on the self-proclaimed, loudly crowed, and arrogantly strutted Conservative street cred.
What is revealed is a sad, silly little man desperately resorting to safety of the delete key and outright censorship of the opposition when he cannot successfully base his argument in the rule of law and the US Constitution, relying instead on emotion, feelings, hysteria, and hyperbole.
That’s a Lib position. It’s beneath you.
Mike, I really enjoyed the humor in the pork barbecue picture, but with the same antimony of logic, we don’t allow the Vietnamese to serve dog.
In fairness, the Muslim should realize that it will take more than apophasis to overcome the resentment their zealots have generated in this country and do more to make amends than building enormous buildings that reflect their own culture near the scene of slaughter. There are more appropriate ways to prove your solidarity with America, such as building an inter-faith and worship building.
I like many others have mixed feelings on this issue, especially since we have a ptresident who has alluded to his Muslim faith several times ‘after being elected’ and has also referred to the US as the largest Muslim country in the world.
With his performance, coupled with 9/11 and many atrocities committed world wide, we are naturally suspicious of any overt move by Muslims; however it is our rule of law and our Constitution that has kept us free for over two hundred years. It is unfortunate that America has elected such a piss poor leader in a time of crisis.
Has Flopping Aces “jumped the shark”?
I’ve the feeling that the Management has championed an issue that splits its readership. I’m not buying the argument, though. How about an editorial describing the philosophy of this site, and why supporting the Cordoba building is consistent with that policy.
No, you don’t have to write that article, or justify anything to me. And I don’t have to visit the site. But it has been an encouragement, so far.
But if you want to change the site around, ala Charles Johnson, it would be polite to tell us, please?
LOL! That’s funny, Jerome. Actually, this is an issue that does split conservatives. Surely you don’t expect us to be in lockstep, do you? Not much conservative in that type of thought. And if it’s an echo chamber ye seek, this was never the place.
But since you’re coming in here five threads later, and hundreds of comments on those threads, let me give you a starting premise… none of us *like* Cordoba House, and wish it never arose as a reality. That said, it has, it did and it’s here. So what’s at question is the degree of opposition, what the proposals are about it, and the repercussions.
From what I hoped would be my final comment on this (but keep getting sucked in to the battles…), I summarized some of the basic categories of dissent:
1: Those who outright support it, with no caveats. (no one here that I’ve seen….)
2: Those who don’t like the development, but have accepted that the legal process has been determined by local authorities and community. Therefore we begrudgingly believe that it should be built as planned because our rule of law and freedom of religion should be applied equally. To not do so is simply reprehensible… we respond with the principles of this country we were taught. That sometimes we may not like our freedoms being extended to those who’s beliefs we detest. But that’s exactly what the Framers and Founders had in mind… protecting just those people. And most expecially when it comes to choice of religion. This is my own personal category.
Many have described this as being right down the middle. Not happy about it, but the legal process was hurdled. Move on.
3a: Those who have decided that Rauf is a radical, and Cordoba House should be stopped at any cost… including altering laws to reverse the current legal decision.
3b: Then there are those who are also on record that it should be stopped even if Rauf is a “moderate”… whatever that guideline is. The above group sometimes say they are just fine if the mosque is “built elsewhere”… but they are also silent when the more extreme movements are shutting down mosque development, located no where near Ground Zero, all over the country.
The question to the “build it elsewhere” group is… where would that be? How many blocks away is good for you? And are we now allowing the nation of opinion to decide for a local community if a particular religion can build within x blocks of anything they deem important?
4: Those who believe that Muslims and Islam have no place in the US, that there are “enough” mosques in NYC or other places, and should be returned to “their nation of origin”. Yup… we’ve had quite a few of those here too. Among the more prominent public voices in that category are Pam Geller with her Stop the Islamification of America. They were successful in thwarting another mosque in NY that was no where near ground zero. The location matters not to some. Just the fact that the Muslim presence is growing.
If you figure out where you fall in the above, I’m sure you’ll find a voice that echoes your own. We’ve had all of them here, save those who support it completely, and without caveats.
@Jerome:
Well, Jerome, it’s good to hear your voice.
If you’ve been around these parts long enough to know anything about Flopping Aces then you will know that this site is not made of up just one voice ala Chaz Johnson.
Instead, FA is a series of voices. Curt is the founder and the rest of us enjoy the distinct pleasure of functioning as contributors or co-authors. We also encourage and allow reader contributions in the form of Reader Posts.
As I laid out in my post here, the Authors on this site, as with the American people in general, have not, and will not always agree.
The Cordoba issue is a perfect example.
Curt, as the owner of the site, does not control our thought process. Nor does he tell us what to write about, what positions to take, what to think, or what to avoid.
The overall theme of the site, or its’ editorial philosophy as you termed it, is Conservatism in general, Conservative politics in particular even though we may post and comment on other themes.
With a little bit of research you will find that the site is made up of a chorus of voices and is much more than the echo chamber that many sites are.
FA consists of multiple shades and hues, rather than simple monochrome palette and we pride ourselves in that diversity.
If you would like to read the entire series of posts regarding the Cordoba House issue you can find them here.
By doing that, you will be able to see the range of opinions that the various authors have.
While not an editorial of overall site philosophy here are my thoughts, as I laid them out in my very first comment on the matter.
@Jerome: I will guarantee you that this site will never become another Little Green Footballs. I am deeply conservative, always have been and always will be and will not allow that to happen.
But, the diversity in authors is what makes this blog special and some of us disagree on issues every so often. Doesn’t happen a lot but when it does, sparks usually fly, as happened with this issue.
This site will always be conservative in nature, be supportive of our military and the war on terror, and do our part to help defeat loony liberals and socialists
I see the well coordinated “Cordoba Cabal” is still in high gear.
I just hope the real power behind this mosque appreciates your efforts (what is it that Stalin said?…oh never mind). I’d hate to see Mata forced to wear a burka after all she’s done. Surely, those robes get caught in the bike’s gears.
How long before this:
Is replaced by this?
And why is it o.k. to build a mosque at Ground Zero but somehow rebuilding a Christian Church that has been at that site since 1922 is meeting so much resistance?
Mike, your blather and deliberate misrepresentation continues, now using the St. Nicholas Church for your agenda. Of course, it’s so danged inconvenient to report the truth, eh?
The church has all the rights to rebuild on their property. What they were negotiating was a larger, grander parcel parcel nearby with a $20 mil subsidy from the Port Authority. Port Authority needs the space below the existing church for a bomb screening center.
Yeah… that’s just like the Cordoba House… NOT.
JEROME: hi, the group of CONSERVATIVES here KNOW their subjects and not to be mess with
Their CORE beleif of their VALUES are straight forward, no fooling around the CONSTITUTION
to fit their agenda, like the DEMOCRATS been doing with the money belongning to the AMERICANS
the part that is so obvious is that, THEY care for the people and their COUNTRY which is suffering now, and they want to make it right the next election. bye
@Mike’s America:
“You lost the argument a long time ago and yet you cannot help but insult those who see it otherwise.”
Then there’s this matter of unfinished business:
Exit question: Which of the authors here resorts to safety of the delete key and outright censorship of the opposition when he cannot successfully base his argument in the rule of law and the US Constitution, relying instead on emotion, feelings, hysteria, and hyperbole?
SKOOKUM, YES, you mention CRISIS, and HE is responsable for not doing the work of a PRESIDENT for AMERICANS even on that subject. bye
@Mike’s America:
So, Mike: How commonly worn are burqas? You’ve repeatedly used this “scare” tactic, and I’ve repeatedly asked you the question.
just me 95,on 13 , hi,you mention something new and I find it very interesting for the cause against the building, thank you. bye
@Wordsmith: You really want to bring that subject up again?
Look around, Mike… this is the US, not Calcutta. As a matter of fact, tho there are religious seminaries and Christian colleges all throughout the nation, the first Muslim College, Zaytuna College, is set to open this fall.
Your like minded buds have been on the case for awhile… starting their hysterical dissent back in Dec 2009. The other more famous ‘phobe, Pam Geller, didn’t get her claws on it until May. Her remark? Academic jihad. Another giant leap is galloping sharia in America. It is, of course, followed by the predictable assault on any and everyone involved.
Open to all, no Muslim requirements. No mention of mandated burkas for teachers. Then again, if they follow the lead of Syrian officials, they’ll be banning the burka/nijab and or face veils entirely. Since everyone Muslim is into jihad, according to so many here, that means those jihadis are banning face veils for security. Don’t that really screw up their concept of modern Muslims… and, of course, yours, Mike.
@Mike’s America:
Yes, really I do. Because you keep waving it around as an Islamic boogeyman surprise. Here’s the question for you again: “How common is the burqa in Islamic society?”
Your links miss the mark.
Wordsmith asked:
to which Mike replied:
Strangely enough, Mike’s response didn’t answer Wordsmith’s question.
Here Mike, a Sunday afternoon PhotoShop piece just for you. You’ve seen it before but you have earned it once again:
@MataHarley:
Dayum!
Another theory shot to hell?
Mike’s America’s chickenzzzzzzz…..are comin’ home…..to roost!
I’ve been invited by Mike to join this discussion. Although I’ve read and reread the post and comments, I am still fuzzy on exactly what the debate is truly about. The entire post is disjointed, non-cohesive, and simply hard to follow.
One thing that is clear is there is a difference of opinion as to whether or not 51 Park/ Cordoba House is a mosque. As Wordsmith points out, Imam Rauf makes clear, “It is not a mosque…” Then he immediately says, “… although it will include a space for Muslim prayer services.” Nothing could be more clear, in fact, Viennese crystal clear. Although I don’t know how the place is not a mosque when it will have “space for Muslim services” and the word ‘mosque’ (derived from French mosquée, from Old French mousquaie; the Arabic would be masjid) means ‘a muslim house of worship.’ Since Rauf first says “it’s not a Mosque”, well. then it’s not a Mosque, argument over; therefore the First Amendment guarantee of freedom of religion does not apply and neither does any IRS tax exemption. The building cannot be not-a-Mosque and a Mosque at the same time.
The not-a-Mosque “will have a swimming pool, basketball court, meeting rooms, a 500-seat auditorium, banquet facilities and many other things a community needs to be healthy. The center will offer theatrical programming, art exhibitions and cooking classes… Like a YMCA, the 92nd St. Y or the Jewish Community Center uptown, it will admit everyone. It will be a center for all New Yorkers.” Well, not exactly like the YMCA (Young Men’s Christian Association) which never, ever had a Church, Cathedral, or Temple in the attic. BTW, the YMCA is now just the Y after dropping the men, christian, and association parts. Fear not, The Village People will continue the tradition. And unlike the Y and Jewish Comminity Center uptown which admit anyone without proselytizing, the sole purpose for admitting non-Muslims is for dawa, an invitation for repentence (not conversion because Allah only creates Muslims; non-Muslims are by definition apostates, infidels who have strayed and must be invited back or killed.)
Muhammad proclaimed that the words he spoke were the words of Allah, all that Allah transmitted must be obeyed, and no one is allowed to question those words. Further, anyone who did not adhere to all of Allah’s commands were apostates (no longer Muslim) and are to repent or be killed. Allah said that no Muslim is to befriend or work with non-believers (anybody who’s not Muslim). Allah also commanded Muslims to kill or enslave non-Muslims whenever and wherever possible. Before they can do this however, Muslims are also commanded to bide their time until they are of such number that they can rise up and kill the kafr and take their property and enslave their women. Now, most of us would consider these edicts to be rather radical and extremist, but in Islam these are the rules of the road which are inviolate, hence, there is no such thing as ‘moderate Muslim’ or ‘moderate Islam’. There are only Muslims who subborn themselves to Islam, Allah, the Prophet, and those who don’t – Muslim and kafr, dar el Harb and dar el Islam, valid verses and abrogated verses – there is no pick and choose.
Rauf says he’s Muslim and woking with non-Muslims to create dialogue and world peace. That may count for something at a beauty contest, but it holds no water in Islam because it’s forbidden, unless it’s a taqiyya strategy allowing Muslims to lie through their teeth so kafr will believe their peaceful intent while hauling the giant horse sculpture into the city. If, on the other hand, Imam Rauf is sincere, then he is not Muslim and his life is in great danger and one or more fatwas and duas have been issued and prayed for. Not only that, but the title ‘Imam’ would have been stripped from him some time ago and he would not be recieving any funding for the not-a-Mosque from Islamic financiers. Since, Rauf is still an Imam, no fatwas or duas have been issued, no one has tried to kill him, and the Cordoba House Proj has far more money than the original $100,000, then one can assume he is still a card carrying Muslim in good standing. All of that, and more, of course, means Imam Rauf is lying through his teeth. It is a mosque, it is a triumphal monument just as the original Cordoba House was in 1011AD, Hagia Sophia in Istanbul, the Grand Mosque in Mecca, and wherever else Islam has conquered, killed, and built large mosques on top of the native houses of worship.
Muslims are taught many outrages that we in American are either unaware of or choose to ignore. DAWN, Pakistani newspaper, published an article on July 10 explaining how the US was discovered by Muslims and therefore belonged to the umma (the world Muslim community), the Declaration of Independence and Constituion were written using Islam as a basis, that Benjamin Franklin admired the Muslim Native American tribes, Thomas Jefferson was a Muslim, and even Abe Lincoln’s mother-in-law was Muslim (http://furtheradventuresofindigored.blogspot.com/2010/07/islam-founded-america-muslims-taught.html). These are, of course, easily spotted falsehoods to anyone who has actually read American history. What isn’t so easily spotted are contemporary lies about peace and brotherhood from an Imam of a religion that doctrinally sanctions lying to, stealing from, enslavement and killing of non-Muslims.
Whoa… there’s a leap into infidel fantasyland. So the Jewish and Christian Community Centers are all innocence – never attempting to spread their faith – and a Muslim Community Center is a madrassa in disguise because… well… you, an infidel, say so. Wonder how many have been harmed by the Silver Springs Muslim Community Center? They really do some awful jihad stuff there… interfaith meetings Jewish/Muslim and Christian/Muslim. Then of course, they have Seniors health programs… anyone 60 and over (no Muslim faith required). If they’re looking for suicide jihad bombers, they’re getting desperate with that category, don’t you think?
Maybe that’s what the Muslim doctors in Brooksville, FL are doing, when they opened their free clinic for seniors a year or so ago, right Indigo? Looking for senior suicide bombers? Has to be since they so hate non-Muslims, according to you and others.
How about the one in San Diego, opening in a little over a week? Boy, they have a really ugly mission statement….
Oh wait… that just can’t be a Qur’ran reference, can it? GASP! It *is*.
I’m missing that kill or convert part there… uh ahem.
You see, there are those that talk (and assume)… like you self-proclaimed infidel Qur’an experts… and those that do… like these community centers that actually are doing what they say they are. Having interfaith dialogue meetings, providing health care to those in need. Frankly I see these community centers doing exactly what they say they are going to do. And I see you experts out there, swearing this is a mandate that apparently is being violated by practicing Muslims every day. Who am I to believe? Those that talk about something they are not part of? Of those that do, and are part of what they say? Actions certainly speak louder than words. You should have learned this with our current bozo-in-chief.
No offense, Indigo but geez… more of the same ol’ same ol’, after hundreds of comments on 8 or 9 threads now. Mike, is this the best back up you could muster? More of the same lectures from non-Muslims and self declared experts? Desperate dude…
@Indigo Red:
Sorry, Indigo. This was posted a bit prematurely, but I really didn’t want to turn another Sunday Funnies into yet another thread rehashing the same ground. This post is a series of blockquotes from articles and interview, carrying over one aspect of a friendly series of discussions we’ve been having here for about the last week or so. I guess the gist is in giving voice to Rauf and el-Gamal in explaining how they envision their Project, rather than just allow the critics to write the narrative and characterize what the Center is and is not.
@Indigo Red accurately observed: “The entire post is disjointed, non-cohesive, and simply hard to follow.”
That’s been the problem with the defenders of the mosque from the beginning. They don’t really have any solid ground to stand on, many of them are secretly embarrassed that the developers of this mosque insist on shoving Islam in our face at Ground Zero so they flail about trying to find some hook to hang their hats on.
It’s been a regular Islamopolooza today and even with all that, the defenders still can’t defend the mosque, they have to attack the opponents.
I’m thinking of having this song adopted for the Islamopolooza music festival sure to follow:
Sing along: “Islamopolooza….”
Apparently neither. Obamacare passed with polls showing more against than for, and no where in the Constitution does it give the Fed Govt the authority to pass such a monstrosity. Unless, of course, you believe the ‘General Welfare’ clause gives Congress carte blanche to do whatever it pleases.
If anything, we should look to history. In 1786, when the Ambassador from Tripoli was asked about the hostility toward America, John Adams and Thomas Jefferson reported:
“The Ambassador answered us that it was founded on the laws of their Prophet [Mohammed] – that it was written in their Koran that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners; that is was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners; and that every Musselman [Muslim] who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.”
Their stance has not changed.
We do not turn our eye from the slow creep of Progressivism just because it is not the quick death nell of Leninism. Socialism is still socialism no matter how you dress it.
Jihad is infused in the theocracy that Islam is. Dressing some of its followers as moderates won’t change that, either.
@just me 95: Careful, you’ll be tarred and feathered for speaking the truth!
I’m going to have to start selling “Islam tar and feather remover”
In the meantime, maybe this works:
@Mike’s America:
Oh really?
My very first post on the matter:
Some of us have put forward solid, consistent positions on the issue.
Some of us have been able to debate and argue our positions without faltering or flailing about.
Some of us have not had to resort to techniques and positions typically taken up by those on the Left side of the aisle.
Some of us have not needed to resort to the safety of the delete key in order to silence the opposition when the tide of the debate turned sharply against us.
Some of us have not needed to rely on the shifting sands of public opinion, choosing instead the rock steady twin anchors of the US Constitution and the rule of law.
Others of us have been unable to answer three very simple, yet apparently infinitely perplexing questions:
@Mike’s America:
Just what planet are you navigating from, Mike?! What in your fevered imagination makes you think Mata, Aye, or myself are “secretly embarrassed” over anything we’ve said over the course of over half a dozen threads, now? If I’m embarrassed by any of it, why do I keep linking to all of them? I hope everyone out there goes through the comments sections. I love it!
@just me 95:
Woooooow….never heard this tale before. [/sarcasm]
Don’t you love the history lessons and Islamic armchair scholars preaching the tenets of Islam?
What’s funny is, the only ones I’ve ever met who have tried to convert me have been Christians. Not one muslim friend, a few devout, ever tried approaching the topic of religious conversion.
The problem with our side is we’ve become too cram-filled with Robert Spencerian Islam.
@Wordsmith: So you are PROUD of this mosque and the intransigence and insensitivity demonstrated by Rauf and co?
Really???
Reread my comments. I think you were a bit too hasty in hitting the comment button.
And it will continue to be same ol’ same ol’ as it has been for the past 1400 years or so since Islam was invented. The verses you have quoted are quite accurate, but they are abrogated verses by Allah who replaced them with better verses commanding death to non-Muslims. Until Islam abrogates the killing verses the argument will remain same ol’ same ol’ and taqiyya will still be lying, not tiny tacos served at interfaith fellowship.
Rather than relying on the Qu’ran for understanding, try studying more of the hadith and sunna to know how Islamic scholars have interpretted the Qu’ran. In everyday life, these are more relied upon than Qu’ranic verses.
There is no “same ol’ same ol'” for 1400 years. Everything evolves, Indigo. Mankind, governments, faiths. Or, in your view, is it only Islam and Muslims that are the same as 1400 years ago, while we American’s have transitioned out of the our old attitudes on slavery?
BTW, I have done quite a bit of studying of hadith, sufi, sunna wahabbism, etc. Actions by some – a small minority that we call jihad movements – reflect your fear mongering. The majority does not. Also the practices differ from nation to nation, culture to culture. Islam in the US is not like Islam in Indonesia, or Somalia, or Afghanistan, or Saudi Arabia, or Pakistan, or Egypt, or Kuwait, or UAE… etc. The one size fits all doesn’t work.
You ought to try concentrating on the very real creeping socialism in this nation, instead of manufacturing horror stories not founded in any substantive, tangible events.