Walter Williams, always a pleasure to read or hear on radio, has a thought provoking column today called Parting company with those neglecting the Constitution. Those who make it their daily task to find ways to demonize conservative viewpoints – and most especially one who is a black conservative – are likely to be johnny on the spot to accuse Williams of fomenting secessionist fever.
The soundbyte news hounds who educate themselves by headlines alone will miss William’s own opinions on his proffered commentary…. found in the last paragraph. But the content leading up to his own hopes for reconciliation will be buried merely by his suggestion that this nation is so divided between “…those Americans who want to control other Americans and those Americans who want to be left alone, that separation is the only peaceable alternative.” Like a troubled marriage, we can seek to reconcile the differences, or agree to part amicably for irreconcilable differences.
Secession attempts in our own historical past have resulted in both the Revolutionary and Civil Wars. The latter is more aptly called the War between the States since this was not a battle for control over a single government, but an confederation of states of the willing.. of which a few decided they were not so willing for sundry reasons that included economic survival, independence, protectionist tariffs (both wars) and slavery (in the latter). But as Williams points out, secession doesn’t need to result in war.
In 1905, Norway seceded from Sweden; Panama seceded from Columbia (1903), and West Virginia from Virginia (1863). Nonetheless, violent secession can lead to great friendships. England is probably our greatest ally.
The bottom-line question for all of us is: Should we part company or continue trying to forcibly impose our wills on one another?
The chasm runs deep between Americans and, moreover, is founded in the lofty philosophy of what many of us believe is Congressional abrogation of Constitutional power. The arenas that Congress now definitively state they have full power to tax, spend and regulate has been aided for over a century by a Supreme Court, dancing carefully on the fence separating the branches of power.
By SCOTUS concertedly avoiding the basic question in many a citizen’s mind – that being are there any limits to what Congress can attach authority and abscond with taxpayers earnings? – the division and fury by Americans divided is indeed coming to a head.
A just released Gallup poll defining mid term election issues lends insight to what the divisions are about…. money, taxes, the role of federal government in our lives, and social welfare programs.
Of seven issues: The economy, the deficit, health care, unemployment, terrorism, Afghanistan and global warming, the order of import by party shows the Independents and Republicans closely aligned, and the Democrats with an entirely different set of priorities… save one. The generic classification of “the economy”.
Republicans and Independents both placed the deficit in 2nd position of import. The GOP had that tied with Terrorism, and put Unemployment, tied with Afghanistan in fourth position.
The Independents had placed Unemployment in third position, tied with healthcare, and Terrorism in fourth. Afghanistan made the fifth position, and both GOP and Independents placed global warming at the bottom of the pile.
The Democrats, after the Economy, placed healthcare before Unemployment and the Deficit… despite the passage of their leadership’s bill. Terror tied with the Deficit, and Afghanistan was their least worry, placing global warming in a higher concern than the war.
The issues may carry the same title, but what the responders believe as the cure for those issues differ mightily. Clearly, the GOP and the Independents have a different view of the role of federal government… concerned with the handling of the economy, the deficit, and terror. Unemployment is another interesting category since the parties differ on the government’s role in such… i.e. does government “create” jobs? Or do they hinder the private sector from “creating” jobs with their policies and regulations?
Enlightenment can be found on just how citizens view those holding power today. Do they approve of their policies and legislation? Or do they hold the same to be responsible for these very problems. Polls seem to indicate the latter.
Politico’s Josh Kraushaar cites yet another new Gallup poll indicating that the anti-incumbent mood of the nation is the highest it’s been in 18 years of the poll’s existence. 65% of all responders said the current Congressional ins don’t deserve reelection.
Another divide is the inherent belief that government is supposed to care for the “general welfare”, as opposed to fostering independent responsibility and promotion of opportunities.
Scott Hodge, president of the non profit research organization, the Tax Foundation, writes in his IBD op-ed today that the tax code that always included exemptions to protect the poorest Americans from paying income taxes, has now been expanded so far into the middle class that even a family of four earning up to $52,000 can expect to pay no income taxes. This has been steadily fostering the view of the IRS as a public ATM… or “Another Taxpayer’s Money” machine.
What was once a nation of the self reliant is now turning into a nation of takers… and those who accept this as rightful entitlement.
President Obama’s policies, from health care to taxes, are all intended to increase the number of takers in America while reducing the number of givers. Our analysis of Obama’s FY 2011 budget plan shows that it would increase the amount of redistribution from the top 10% of families by nearly $100 billion per year — to a total of $854 billion — while expanding the amount of government benefits targeted to the middle and upper-middle classes.
Economists have identified a phenomenon they call “fiscal illusion.” When people perceive the cost of government is less than what it really is, they will demand ever more government. The real danger today is not just that we have so many non-payers, but that the $1.5 trillion deficit is making the cost of government look cheap for all of us. So much spending is raining down on us that it now seems like “free money” in a sense.
Every marketing guru will tell you that people love free stuff and that they will take as much as they can get whether they need it or not. But for a nation, this is a recipe for fiscal disaster.
This entitlement trend is a path that, according to the CBO, is fiscally unsustainable if tax credits are extended and spending remains at it’s current fury. Even that withdrawal is now a delicate dance with the economy in fragile shape.
“Unless we as a nation demonstrate a strong commitment to fiscal responsibility, in the longer run we will have neither financial stability nor healthy economic growth,” Bernanke said in a speech Wednesday.
The CBO projects that Obama’s policies would produce deficits averaging nearly $1 trillion for the next decade.
The deficit would bottom out in 2014 at a level equal to 4.1 percent of gross domestic product, which is higher than the 3 percent level considered to be sustainable by the White House and independent economists. Deficits would again rise after 2014.
The debt-to-GDP ratio would go from 63 percent this year to 90 percent by 2020, the CBO said. A “select group of countries,” including Greece, which is facing a fiscal crisis, have debt levels that high, which is “worrisome,” Elmendorf said.
Elmendorf cautioned against a fiscal retrenchment that is too quick and could hamper an economic recovery. The deficit levels are expected to drop from 10 percent this year to nearly 4 percent within four years, “the most rapid withdrawal of fiscal stimulus since the Second World War,” he said.
The ideal timing for deficit reductions would be “at some point beyond the next few years,” he said.
This brings us to the philosophical quandary deep between us. Are we to cough up more as citizens in order to maintain the entitlement lifestyle being nurtured? Or should we get tough on the elected leadership to reverse the entitlement mentality they have begat, and insist upon increasing every Congressional session?
Once again in America’s history, the Mason-Dixon line is drawn in the sand over federal taxes and the right of the federal government to meddle in free enterprise of both the states and citizens alike for the general “good”. The Euro-socialist western countries provide us the unlikely probability of success of a government, attempting to sustain itself while being the entitlement provider to it’s citizens. But it is a lesson that the elected ones prefer to ignore, instead focusing on the utopian dreams that bend the economic laws of reality.
Thus we return to Williams’ provoking commentary, and the feasibility and wisdom of a national “divorce” between those that crave self reliance from those that are entitlement takers.
Like Williams, I prefer the restoration of Constitutional values as a settlement. But the question remains, is the other side in the least bit amicable to doing so?
Vietnam era Navy wife, indy/conservative, and an official California escapee now residing as a red speck in the sea of Oregon blue.
I, too, smell big trouble brewing just over the horizon. Secession, however, I do not think is an answer — and recent history tells us why.
Historically, America has served the world in the role of the place where people who “want to be left alone” would be “left alone.” America was the safety valve for the world. America’s founding documents and resultant institutions served us well towards that end for a long time. Now, however, we all see sabotage and subversion from within those institutions has turned that ideal upside-down. Go ahead and blame the baby-boomer generation, or blame the concerted effort in the past 40 years at turning the public school system into an incubator for the entitlement mentality rather than as a place to forge civic minded productive citizens, or blame the general mass media in this country for its bias for and indifference to the lies and distortions put out by the Left. It does not matter. The point is that the world’s safety valve has been co-opted and turned into just another place like the rest of the world.
If today we try to resolve that problem by designating a portion of America as a haven for the remaining number of us to still be left alone, how long before the founding institutions of that “new” country would be co-opted as well? Then what?
No, I’m afraid the only workable solution is to fight back.
Divorce is difficult; but if you have ever had a spouse that spent money like it is evil and should be disposed of as quickly as possible, it is often the only answer.
Why live in a manufactured Hell? If there are irreconcilable differences, split the sheets and call it a day.
Liberals have the entitlement fever and the borrowing addiction, they deserve their own Socialist nation; why should Conservatives continue to try and pay for profligate habits that are out of our control. They hate us anyway, have any of you noticed?
Okay, throw your manure Molotovs, I have on my slicker. Thanks for getting me into this Fearless Mata.
LOL! You’re welcome, Skook. And remember I always have your back.
If you parse the above chart a bit more, you will notice that Independents are more worried about the Economy/Jobs/Debt trifecta… three things which all interact to the point of almost being a single issue… than those of either party.
This is the disconnect which is driving a lot of anger out in America, as NEITHER major party pays more than lip service to fiscal issues… at a time when we can all see the fiscal train wreck coming.
While we might like to see all the conservative minded free of the liberal takers, the liberal takers realize all too well that they need us around to pay the bills. They love what they think is free redistribution simply because in their deranged mind it is the fair thing to do. So is it possible to change their deranged mind? I think not. They will hold their views until they pass from this scene. My concern is more with the young who are still succumbing to the brain washing and to the young who haven’t enough curiosity to even try to understand what values are important to their own well being and the nations well being. Perhaps apathy by the masses is our worst enemy. I do have hope that the public is finally waking up to the dangers of those so willing to tax and spend us into a has been nation. I believe we have to continue to fight for the principles upon which this Nation was founded and not give them an inch.
@MataHarley
Good idea! Let’s carve the US into four countries. The Blue East coast + Upper Mid West, The Red Middle, the Blue West coast and Red Alaska. Kind of like how the states voted in 2008 except for geographically convenience – have Colorado & Mexico join the reds and South Carolina & Georgia join the blues. Then we can see how successfully the Red states will be economically once shorn off a lot majority coastal cities.
@Romeo13, included in that trifecta for Indies is also healthcare, tied for 3rd place with unemployment.
But when you think of the fiscal links, healthcare is a fiscal issue as well. So then it remains are they supporters or opposers of that fiscal policy? Polls indicate that the only devotees of O’healthcare are the Dems. The majority of both GOP and Indy’s are in opposition.
So for them the issue would be to fix the fiscal damage wrought…. which is all part of the trifecta concern.
I’m not sure where jobs would rate so high as an Indy concern since creating jobs isn’t traditionally a task they assign to federal responsibilities. So the head scratcher would be, just what about jobs are they concerned with? Removing policies that get in the way of private sector? Or having the feds funnel out more stimulus… er… “job” legislation? I’m thinking the former over the latter. But the midterms are going to be the telling moment… the definitive battleground for the self reliant vs the entitlement takers.
@Delh I’m with you on the young. Those like my granddaughter will just be indoctrinated thru school. Those that supported the rock star on stage with the glittered settings, banks and arenas may rue the day they allowed their futures to be absconded. That, unfortunately, may be at a moment to late to reverse it.
One of two things Obama’s election has done… it has brought America to the crossroads. Are you an entitlement Euro-socialist? Or a self reliant Constitutionalist? The second is many are now discovering not only their political voices, but their inner conservatives.
It would certainly be funny to watch the mega wealthy Liberal Elites be stuck paying for the Entitlement programs they are so anxious to promote. I am talking of the Kennedy’s, the Heinz Ketchup heir, Pelosi and a few others; would they be content to watch their fortunes dwindle taking care of the downtrodden and lazy without the benefit of Conservative money or would they sell out their principles to rethink their personal economic situation.
@GaffaUK, your tongue in cheek sarcasm has been successfully detected without the unofficial “snarK” designation… LOL
Let’s see… would I bank on the urban city centers *not* collapsing under their own entitlement population weight? Or would I bet on rural America being able to survive without nanny welfare programs, much like Wyoming, the Dakotas, Montana etal do today without huge state deficits? Who’s better equipped for self reliance… the concrete jungle? Or the rural denizen?
hummmmm…. uh…. thinking 🙄 … er…. don’t help. 😆
Lastly, perhaps you are one of those I accused of never reading to the end and just going on the headline? er, ahem. You will see that I agreed with Williams that I hoped for a peaceful restoration to Constitutional values. If that’s not possible, then I’d reassess my opinions at that time. We have many options open to us before secession as a last resort. Therefore it cannot be construed that secession, or carving up the nation was my “good idea”.
i don’t see the americans patriots going for that sessesion,like MATA mention;;,there is still options; to save the CONSTITUTION of a SUPERPOWER that always will defeat the ennemies forhein or inside it’s own ,but the wises americans know if necessary of any options when what where and how,,, 🙄
Let the Northeast,California,all of the West Coast Part.The South can save civilization(ie battling Islam)on its own.Let the hippies support themselves! 😈
Mata, thanks for posting this. It’s worth thinking about. Too many would throw this idea aside without consideration, but I do think that it is important to mentally consider the consequences and benefits if such a divorce came about.
The very talk of certain states alining themselves with their neighbors to break off from the coastal liberal elites will and should send shivers through the progressives heart(s). They’re entire premise will be undone if several States decide to undo this union by divorce. I think the hard left would actually applaud and be for it too.
With any luck, we’ll pull through this crossroads a stronger, united, union of states with clear limits on the Federal Government and expectations of citizenship revisited. If we do now have this intervention, then, a divided country we’ll remain and a divorce will be not only pragmatic, but necessary.
@yippie- I feel the same way you do on this issue despite my earlier efforts to muddy the waters; however, at what point are you and the rest of us going to say enough is enough- if the Progressive Socialists consolidate their political power and can push on with their Socialism with impunity and they just might with another 20 to 40 million illegals voting for Dems. Are you willing to sacrifice a lifetime’s worth of work to entitle everyone who doesn’t want to work and an illegal population that continues to grow at an astonishing rate?
Are their entitlements worth you accepting a much lower standard of living?
Are you willing to accept a cap and tax scheme that is aimed at crippling our economy to better economies of developing nations?- a system of carbon credits based on a fraudulent science.
At what point do you want to throw in the towel and say, “I don’t want your change Mr. Obama.”
@MataHarley
Of course I was being tongue in cheek and I’m pretty sure you would never go for it but it’s a fantasic premise to even consider. To even split the US up between Democrats and Republicans you would need to work out where the lines would be drawn geographically. The divide between the blue and red states seems to just keep getting wider and more bitter. The blue states have huge areas of agriculture so I’m not sure how they would lose more than the Red States. The East Coast could continue to have Washington DC as it’s capital. Maybe the West Coast could have San Francisco. The Red Middle could have Wichita and Alaska could have Wasilla (and Todd could fulfil his dream of Alaskan independence!)
So let the blue states continue with a liberal democracy and the red states can turn the clock back and have social conservatism. Of course some people may have to up sticks and move to a new country which suits their politics if they so wish.
In the UK it’s somewhat easier – we just need to jettison Scotland to stop getting rubbish socialists like Blair & Brown.
This sounds like a bunch of whiney, “I lost, so I’m taking my ball and going home” talk. Who said being part of a democracy meant your guy/gal would win every time? And when you lose, do you quit on the team? When Bush beat Gore, I remember many liberals so despondent they talked of leaving the country because of very similar dire predictions to what I read on this site (every new President apparently is going to turn the country into a totalitarian state). They’re all still here. So is America. You people need to get a grip.
ummm yeah, Tom. Like when your side was “whining” back in 2005?
Ketcham put together a pretty fine primer on the subject… and since it was Salon in the Bush era, it was penned as likely defense of those “whiney” anti-war Dems.
Then, of course, there was Lawrence O’Donnell on The McLaughlin Group in 2004, suggesting the same.
Despite your pooh pooh’ing the subject as just whining from the losers, Tom, it was never likely the states would entertain secession seriously over Iraq.
It’s a different era, and a much different violation. Eighteen states have now signed on to the FL health care lawsuit in just the couple of weeks post passage. Will that number grow to substantially more? Only time will tell. But this federal intrusion into what can be construed as 10th Amendment territory, and unfunded mandates has resulted in far more action than “whining” by more than just a few states. And it’s just begun.
And this is not in the honeymoon period following an election either. This is now 13 months in and a public debt increase in that same amount of time by $2.173 tril. The debt under Bush was increased by $4.891 tril over the entire eight years. Obama has spent 44% of Bush’s tenure increase in a single year with his big spending Congress buds.
Another little factoid… $1.946 tril of the entire Bush tenure… or 40% of the total… was racked up in two years, starting the day the Dems took control of both chambers and the nation’s purse strings in 2007.
Yes… it’s a different era, and a much different violation going on know. This time, unlike just a few sour grapes pundits on the talking heads circuit, it has captured the attention of both the states, and the citizens.
Sadly, Tom, you fail to understand that this is not a Democracy but a Republic Democracy which has a vastly different system of operations than your “just get over it, I won” attitude. Due to American Consitution, the Congressman elected by his Congressional District is supposed to legaly omit his or her personal agendas and opinions and must represent the core ideas or values the District that elected that person on a National level. Currently we have seen gross violations of the Consitution in many Congressmen and even Senators who dismiss the interests of their domestic voterbases for personal agendas or special interests, and this is a step towards a Dictatorship as the people are not being given propper representation on the National Level. This is why over 80 percent of the American population is in disapproval of Congress’s behavior as they have given the middle finger to their repsective home districts and people are in the process of self-educating themselves over what the Majority party of Congress and Senate has just done.
The issue with Al Gore’s Election in 2000, which was a legal and logical concern, was a District in Florida that had spotty counting of ballots for the Electorial College (a tool designed within American Republic Democratic to prevent foreign manipulation of Public votes). If the Federal Government had used the recount rules insisted by Bush, Al Gore would have won but due to fate we used the Federal Recount rules and that went to Bush. The President’s jobs vastly contrast to the Congress and Senate where the President is to act in the best interests to protect the Republic from internal and External threats to the Government while the Congress is to represent the People’s voice (which has now been mostly muted by corrupt politicans.)
Funny you should mention those gross violations, Mr. Irons. From Williams’ column, which bears repeating:
Yes, it’s time this was brought before the High Court for some serious clarification. That is the last option available to the nation as recourse prior to something as drastic as secession. The more states that sign on, and the more cogent the complaint and citations, the harder it will be for the courts to refuse to hear the arguments.
@ Sookum,
I’m there with you bud, I was just trying to moderate my disgust a tad. I would prefer a United nation that overcomes the super-constitutional, big-federal-government we’ve been fed since Wilson started improving our lives.
Actually though, if that is not possible, then yes, I’m already there. I’ve already started thinking about how it might work and how it might play out in the near term. In some ways though, it’s unimaginable.
I am sick of the lies and political games that are played in Washington. I’m sick of the corruption and the graft. I’m tired of the unprincipled power hungry who care less for our country and the damage they do than their own ambitions and projects they can send back to their districts.
So I’m there. I wish things could be different, but I’m sure not going to stand by and accept that we’ve become a European-socialist society and that’s just how it is. I think it will be increasingly interesting to see how the GOP and the DNC try to get a handle on the disgust and frustration growing in this country, and more so, the political elites come to some revelation (maybe) that we are living in a new era and not new in the sense of moving further left…
Let’s discuss who would likely benefit the most and least from breaking up and how it might look. I don’t know that it wouldn’t be a vast majority of the middle of the country wishing to divorce from the coasts… What do you think?
Countries break up all the time, peacefully or with blood, and some even quite recently: Czechoslovakia is an example of the former, the USSR is an example of the latter. Balkanization or Byzantine fragmentation have been around for centuries, even millennia.
When the cumulative forces of agglomeration (positive scale effects) are overtaken by the negative external effects of size, things break down – a basic law in spatial economics. I used to talk to my students about it in the 1970s, till I retired in the early 2000s, with former Yugoslavia being a prime example.
America, as the country we used to know prior to 11/04/08, is dead. The aftermath and future of that momentous event no one knows, except God. Socio-spatial dynamics though point towards an amorphous region of what is a typical Third World country today, say india, Nigeria or Brazil – even China or Indonesia. As to the cultural foundation of that new Third World region? a mix of liberation Catholicism, islam and marxism, where poverty and dispair prevail. Not a pretty picture.
@MataHarley:
I know, I know, pick me!
Got my onion sets ready to plant, and my tomato plants are already over three inches tall with their second set of leaves. We can buy bulk staples from the Amish, eat from the garden, trade hay for hogs and beef, eat all the fish we can fish for and live quietly on our own piece of ground.
You are always welcome, we will build you a little cabin in the park with a porch swing to relax while reading Skookum’s book. I was thinking of maybe getting you a blood hound and a Confederate flag to drap across one of the windows, but people might get the wrong impression, you know how they are.
Mr. Irons,
that’s an informative response. I do believe that if the current government is defying the will of the people, they will be voted out. If you are correct about the electorate’s mood, problem solved. That’s why i don’t understand talk of succession, unless the dissatisfied have decided that their special interests trump “government of the people, by the people, for the people”.
James,
What is your conception of how this peaceable split would happen in America? Would all those who voted for Obama down south be forcibly moved out of the “red states” and vice versa? How about the case of those who voted for Scott Brown in Massachusetts? Do they get to mosey on down south, or will they be deemed too “RINO” and thus forced to languish in the Blue zone. I don’t see how it could ever be peaceable. How would one explain to someone that he has to leave his home, maybe where his family has lived for generations, because he’s politically no longer viable? Would you want to live in a country that’s 100% Conservative? And how about the next generation? You don’t think a few liberals might be born there? What then?
JAMES well said but UNITEDSTATES of AMERICA has a grandest background of having become the SUPERPOWER of our plnet and we cannot allowed it to regress or to suffer a regime of conspiration to minimyse his power ,,,many countrys trough all the centurys benefit from his strenght and freedom gift given with the blood of his military,,now they have that problem to be solved and i am confident that it will in the right time,,look at what the AMERICANS achive the out most challenges as going to deep search of the universe and technology advances that has been copied by other countrys and resold to AMERICA into a cheap version,,so much more to add to the proof that they have thelove and passion of maintaining the rules given by the makers of the CONSTITUTION that has been undermine and overrules but as they tried to pass incorrect laws ,,the people reconnised their faults and are not incline to let it go further,,bye 🙄 the whole world is as always whatching and waiting for the AMERICA to rise to power
RE: “England is probably our greatest ally.”
After a year of President Obama’s “Smart Diplomacy”, that may not be true.
MISSY that remind me i must start,this the time for planting my tomatoes seed in countainers in the hous to be replant later and some flowers also ,,your cabin building is a good idea many city people would love a vacation in your cabin and that gives you money to go spend in their city ,,i can’t stand the idea that you will eat real home garden tomatoes before i do bye 🙄
@ilovebeeswarzone:
Beez, We are still eating them from last year. I froze some partially cooked in freezer bags, it keeps the fresh home grown taste. Makes a big difference in sauces, our spagetti, lasagna and chili have been great. Will do all my tomatoes that way this year, saves time and space, no more canning jars, hooray!!
@Missy:
Here in the land of 10 month gardening my onions are up to salad plucking size.
The radishes are ready. The beets are putting on a show.
The tomato plants (all 40 of them…yikes) are now 12-16″ high, some with blossoms.
The squash and cucumbers are peeking out of the ground.
The corn gets planted tomorrow.
We had our first meal of home grown Brussels Sprouts last week….yummmm..
The collards and turnips are doing well.
Tomorrow is also cow manure collection and spreading day…the children are “thrilled” with that idea.
AYE CHIHUAHUA show of i call your comment a boomerang jealousye is eating me alive 🙄
That’s a bizarre leap, Tom. No one discussed division via political beliefs. Since it’s a hypothetical restructure of what would be two nations with a similarity in foundation, there is no “forcibly moved” or “has to leave his home” going on. No more than if you don’t like living in California, you can choose to move to Nevada.
States that choose to secede could merely reinstall the Constitution and Amendments (save that expanded Congressional vagary about taxes in the 16th), and elect a Congress and appoint a strict constructionist SCOTUS that does not believe in a “living Constitution” and holds Congressional power to strictly what is designated in that document. And personally, I’d support an arm of the SCOTUS that reviews all legislation prior to being sent to the Oval Office for violations.
The states that elect to stay with the status quo may live with their Congress with unfettered power to abscond with earnings, without judicial interference, for whatever they deem the general “good”, under an expanded and unchecked Commerce Clause.
Citizens may, or may not, have dual citizenship (you can find that out “when you pass the bill”…. 😆 ), and opt to live where they choose, plus enjoy the freedom to travel freely between the two countries.
The problems I see are that when the nanny welfare government version of the US runs out of revenue to support their social services net, the population will flood across the borders to the new version where the free market and opportunity still thrives. However a repeat performance will not happen since a SCOTUS will be obligated to the citizenry to use it’s separation powers to keep the Congress in check.
@Aye Chihuahua:
Sounds wonderful, can you post a picture for us just to give us something to look forward to? It’s been such a long winter we could certainly use some cheer!
All I have right now are chives and spring flowers! 🙄 What I wouldn’t give for 10 month gardening or gardening in just one place. Instead of traveling back and forth from here to the farm, waisting 12 hours driving each time, rushing, rushing, rushing. Hoping to soon be able to relax and care for just one spot, hopefully next year!
Missy, thank you for that kind offer. And I’d most certainly be chipping in in both the building and work around the farm with labor and whatever contributions I could make. Sounds just heavenly, and the company would be superb!
@ Mata,
Thank you for the clarification. My personal feeling is that diversity of opinion is a huge asset for America, not to mention the diversity of resources and geography. So I think we’d be left with two lesser nations in place of one superpower. Just my opinion.
I understand that diversity of opinion is the heart of the nation as founded, Tom. That would remain intact. No one would suggest the Mason-Dixon lines are drawn along political beliefs as a requirement of citizenship, as I mentioned. So that asset of free speech and opinion remains, as it should.
Also there are no trade restrictions that would substantially differ. In fact, if the Gulf Coast states were to secede, they may be free to tap into oil and gas energy sources currently prohibited. This would improve the market for the nanny welfare version of the US by having closer energy sources, and not with transportation costs or the political speedbumps associated with Middle East sources. Additionally, if the shale rich states seceded, again they may be free to develop where they are prohibited today by the feds snatching up the resource rich lands as national parks to appease their enviro lobbyists.
What would be tossed aside in a strict constructionist US is the increased powers of Congressional meddling, and the freedom to develop resources to make the nation more self-reliant in the basic survival industries…. energy, textiles and manufacturing. Also the private sector would be the job creators, not the government.
I actually disagree that it would be two lesser nations. Big is not always better. For example California should have been split into North and South a long time ago, IMHO. And, in fact, the nanny welfare version of the US would benefit from having a close neighbor who is allowed to develop and produce to benefit the citizens, and not the central government. Maybe that economy would take a little longer to collapse. In the new constructionist verion, the states would be left to most of their own devices for their particulars… as was planned from the onset.
As I said, I would prefer the settlement of a return to the foundation of our governance, and a reversal of this unfettered Congressional power as the first step. There are two avenues for that I see… electoral wins by voters demanding that, or a SCOTUS who finally starts defining the Congressional power boundaries. If both failed, then the country as I know it to be as founded ceases to exist, and we become just another France/Spain Euro-socialist nation. At that point, I am not so sure that I wouldn’t be fully supportive of a peaceful secession movement.
BTW, to add some associated – but not directly related to secession – fodder to the thread, I’m linking to Jonah Goldberg’s “Who’ll Do America’s Job” column today. Jonah is another writer, like Mark Steyn and Christopher Hitchens, who generally makes me laugh out loud. But in this one, Jonah’s usual acerbic wit is deadly serious. With the US becoming another Euro-socialist country, who will do America’s job?
This runs the gamut of American exceptionalism. From being the superior defense force that other nations… with little or no budget for defense left after their welfare nets suck up the revenue… depend upon for protection; to inventive breakthroughs from drugs and medical to electronic or mechanical.
In a very hypothetical split of the nation between Socialism and Conservatism, I think people would have the same option they have today; to leave states that are committed to promotion of entitlements through perpetual victimhood and exploiting that situation for political gain and moving to a state that promotes self-reliance and less government manipulation of an individual’s life. If people are upset with states that want to promote energy self-reliance and the fraud of anthropogenic global warming and enter states that desperately want to lower their standard of living to give vast amounts of tax money to foreign dictators, third world dictators and corrupt officials at the UN; that should be their option.
@yippee, there are problems with casting both coasts as leftist, since the Southeast and Southern Gulf coasts are not as necessarily wrapped up in Socialism like the Pacific Coast and the Northern half of the Atlantic Coast. The state of Washington is an example of a political schism and a repetitive problem, the coast is a classic Socialist enclave; however, if you venture 50 to 100 miles east the political climate changes radically. No political area is so vehemently anti-American as Pelosi’s home base of San Francisco, except for Berkly; yet, there are areas around the military bases of the West Coast where patriotism is still a virtue, so there is no easy demarcation.
Something tells me that if the Socialists were faced with providing for their own defense from among their pacifist younger generations and supporting all the illegal immigrants and supporting the vast majority of welfare recipients and taxing themselves into oblivion to raise the standard of armaments in third world nations, they would begin to change their attitude. 😉
I keep thinking that given the liberal’s stand on abortion, drugs, and the “alternate life styles” they tend to favor, that we would run out of liberals pretty soon. Where do they keep coming from? Spores? 😉
Have you folks ever thought of Alberta? All of Canada is socialist? That is absolute BS. There’s 250 k Americans in Calgary alone. The province is 20 billion in the black and now operating in the black. We know how to get the oil shales into production and they’re mostly red state. We’re sick and tired of the Federalis trying to nationalize the oil and gas industry which they’ve tried for the last 40 years. Uranium is the next big kick. Harper is keeping the nationalizing wolves at bay. Ponder these ideas a little. Hey Skookem, you love northern Alberta don’t ya? I sure do.
Yes oil guy, I am actually from Northern BC, a real Socialist Dystopia. My family lives in Calgary ad I used to have a ranch south of Calgary between Millarville and Okotoks, it has since become a boutique place for ranchettes and $300 sneakers driving Beamers. I will be working in Edmonton and Vancouver in a few weeks, that’s a good thing because my business is running on square tires lately. In reality oil guy, I think Alberta supports the rest of Canada and the rest of Canada hates them for that reason. It wouldn’t be so bad if they were socialist; but for Socialists to depend on conservatives is dang embarrassing. I think Washington DC and the rest of America could learn a few things from Alberta concerning energy independence, roads, maintaining a thriving economy and staying in the black.
Comparing the two provinces of BC and Alberta is a perfect example, in BC we have a Socialist hot bed of unions, continual strikes, and an ever growing entitlement segment of the population. The province is mega rich in resources and agriculture; yet struggles with the anchor of the NDP New Democrat Party around its neck while it tries to swim in the swamps of Socialism and Communism. While just across an imaginary line into Alberta, the difference is as stark as the US and Mexico. Ain’t Socialism wonderful!
By the way is this the tread about boomerangs?- that is the name of my new Catahoula (Black Mouth Curr) pup one year old, he also answers to Boomer and Boom Boom. Just trying to stay on track.
Nope, Mr. Skook…. the “boomerang/racist/socialist economy/how to be PC with liberals” thread is here.
heh
Temujin, even tho the liberals don’t have kids at the rate Conservatives do, they have another way of making up for the disparity. Brainwashing them in school. It’s like some species of the cuckoo bird. It lays it’s egg in the nest of other bird species. At which point the other bird species is left to raise the cuckoo’s chick. Conservatives spend time raising their children while liberals corrupt them. What emerges in the end is a liberal and not the Conservative.
Mata, Jonah hits on exactly what I was thinking not long ago. Europe is free to be almost defensless and destructively socialist because we protect them. Once we can’t afford our own military…
Yeah, HR…. Jonah always has a way with not mincing words. Sometimes more amusing than others. But many lib/progs use that argument of a less superior defense by preying on the “we’re not supposed to be the world’s police” argument. For some of the more isolationist bent in the Indy/Ron Paul world, this works well.
As someone who approached the boomerang phenomenon from a scientific approach, I can say with authority, “It is a difficult skill to master”: unlike our Global Warming Hoaxsters, I will not make up phony data to come to a satisfactory conclusion; I just couldn’t get the dang thing to work. I know for a fact that ricochets are difficult to predict: once you hit some poor unsuspecting animal or casual observer the thing doesn’t come back it stays put, throwing them in the bush is laughable and makes them hard to find, throwing them at flying ducks and geese must give them something to laugh at at night when they are having a drink with the guys, the thought of using one against a Grizzly, while tempting was abandoned after careful evaluation of my throwing skills. Thus I can honestly say that other than making a few casual observers duck once in a while, my boomerang skills are negligible. I had no idea I was dealing with such knowledgeable people in the science of boomeranging; perhaps I will film my ‘swing’ and some of you can offer a critique on my lack of progress!
Oh! I almost forgot, Boomerang, my dog is in the direct line of “Old Yeller”, it don’t get better than that.
SKOOKUM very interesthing about boomerang and your dog direct from old yeller that was a nice movie,,at the other post [is OBAMA intentionally des…we also mention with DONALD the boomerang story at almost the end of all comments,,check it you will laugh bye 🙄
In any divorce property division looms high. Presume the debt is split proportionately just to get that out of the way. Real physical assets go with the locale. That leaves several interesting mobile assets to divvy up, of which I’ll address one. The military. Presumably the ships can be split between the parties appropriately and bases go with the location they are currently sited. However what about the people? Candidly, I suspect the Demo regions would have maybe 10% of the total armed forces elect to remain in their service. And virtually no special ops guys – never met a SEAL, Ranger, SF, CCT etc that voted Democrat in the past 30 years (a few of us were fooled by Carter but that’s another story).
Likewise what about cross-border resources – will Nevada/Arizona be compelled to continue supplying Colorado River water to Los Angeles? Gotta head out the door to MMA practice but there’s a springboard for more discussion.
@Skookum… maybe you should take up “frisbee” instead? 😆
@Skookum:
Frisbee golf is fun.
You don’t meet as many chicks as Tiger….but fun none the less.
@Vejadu, now that the casual banter is out of the way, you do bring valid concerns to the table. What does happen to the debt? The military assets?
Frankly, I’m not interested in assuming another party’s policy debt. I never wanted it, but as a citizen, was saddled with it. But it is a reality. Perhaps the answer there lies in the same avenues that battling spouses take in a divorce settlement. What is one country of political philosophy willing to assume to advance the policy/legislation compared to the next? Would I, secessionist country, be willing to assume GM’s pensions? TARP? Healthcare? Cap and trade? Absolutely not. So I think “splitting” debt comes down to who wants to continue the policies, and who doesn’t. That’ll sink the O’bamanation that continues alone.
Military is much more difficult. Territory plays heavily into that one. Coastal bases absorb Naval and Coast Guard assets, if terrain follows ownership. This leaves the rest of the military branches open to states choosing their sides.
The game of Risk was always a fascinating one. Perhaps a new board game of “Secede” would be a best seller in these times. But most excellent details to ponder. Many thanks for your input on the run.
Fearless Mata, truthfully, I am a fairly athletic guy: even at my age, I astound people occasionally when I move at the speed of a horse that has suddenly come unglued. I was a swimmer that could swim for miles without getting tired. I was a gifted martial artist, strength, agility and speed; but for the life of me, I couldn’t master the frisbee. This is a failure that I have never admitted in a public forum; it is humiliating, and I stand ashamed before the world, if it were only a simple skill like running; I could run forever with a pack and rifle without a care in the world. But upon the bloody sands of competition within the great coliseum, when I was handed that plastic disc, I had no choice; but to raise my two fingers together and beg Caesar for mercy. For Skookum was a miserable failure at frisbee.
AC, there is a frisbee golf center next to the Huntington Beach Equestrian Center. I have watched those brave and intrepid frisbee’ers for minutes at a time. I will be the first to tell you, they are fearless as they throw caution and frisbee to the wind without helmets or padding. It is surely a game for men, macho men with whiskers and beer who can fart with the best of them. An informal fraternity that share the pain and risk like rugby players, who can begrudge them a few beers with their devil may care attitudes. I tip my hat to the frisbee golfer and to their dangerous and thankless sport.
It’s true not many women are attracted to the muscular and finely tuned body of the frisbee golfer; who risks all to merely tap his frisbee against the tingling chains. No, today’s Liberal woman doesn’t go for the Macho Man, hero of days gone by, modern Liberal women prefer a more effeminate man who has his fingernails lacquered and gets a pedicure now and then; but thank goodness for the frisbee golfer who keeps the spirit of manhood alive; so that hopefully, future generations will have a glimpse of the manhood of days gone by.
@Skookum:
If it makes you feel any better Skookum, my hubby knocked his 75 year old mother down while playing croquet.
MISSY dont you find thoses sports cruel? 🙄 croquet and frisby, SKOOKUM dont worry you’r good at writing storys and working on your book,no time to play frisby,bye 🙄
Missy, it was wrong for women to start playing croquette, like Polo, the game is diminished when you get all sissified with women. When I play croquette it is understood, you laugh at my shot or crack a joke about my swing, you’re going down. I take my croquette very seriously. I allow no drinking on the grass, arguments are settled at the 10 foot end of the pool with 12 pound sledge hammers. Does that sound like a game for sissies? I have no sympathy for croquette players who suffer injuries, if you can’t hack it, take a hike!
@ilovebeeswarzone:
You betcha! He was being mean and tried to send her ball far away, she was pleading with him to not do it, she got to close and over she went. He didn’t mean it, it was an accident but I still hold it over his head everytime we play croquet. 👿 😉
@Skookum:
My mild mannered sweet hubby turns into a big bully the minute he picks out his color. It’s one thing when he plays with us, but his mom? he should have reigned it in a bit. She was a good sport about it, she laughed, thank goodness she didn’t get hurt. Not only did she fall, she kind of rolled down the hill too. Little Irish lady, almost five feet tall, less than a hundred pounds, we lost her five years ago, she was 89.