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This kind of stuff doesn’t help, and legitimizes the mindset that Mr. Gates had during the incident, at least to him in his experience. If in your living memory you had experienced treatment from authorities with this type of hateful mindset, you might be defensive as well.
It is sad that the Lady who called in the report felt threatened, she never did say exactly who was calling her a Racist, or who was making threats on her……
It’s alot like saying to Conservatives when they hang on to emotional baggage, cry foul, and become negative when they look at the last election, and our country and aren’t happy with it: hey, sorry, just get over it, calm down! Work harder next election. Everybody had a chance to vote, you had and still have equal opportunity to present your candidate and express your views, everything is equal, why is there so much anger toward the choice Americans made in the election? You weren’t discriminated against. Shame on you!
drjohn
14 years ago
In the police report both Crowley AND Figueroa state that they spoke to Whalen.
That’s the thing I cannot make sense of.
drjohn
14 years ago
“This kind of stuff doesn’t help, and legitimizes the mindset that Mr. Gates had during the incident, at least to him in his experience. If in your living memory you had experienced treatment from authorities with this type of hateful mindset, you might be defensive as well.”
It does not justify abuse of a police officer. Crowley had no history of offending Gates. Gates was looking to turn this into a new Rodney King episode.
mooseburger
14 years ago
drjohn said: “It does not justify abuse of a police officer.”
We can both agree on that.
Buffalobob
14 years ago
Big Al Sharpton, never miss a chance to race bait.
“The Rev. Al Sharpton is taking up the banner of Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr., accusing Cambridge cops of racism for arresting Gates, and vowing to stand by his side at an arraignment next month.”
Do you remember The Tawana Brawley Hoax?
Look at all of the coverage. Look at who jumped on the officer and the reporting party. Remember the news org. and the experts.
It is sad that the Lady who called in the report felt threatened, she never did say exactly who was calling her a Racist, or who was making threats on her……
Why should she? It’s a reverse-racism-generated belief, perpetuated by a broad range than just specific individuals. It is a charge made by those who want to rationalize Gates’ over-reactive knee-jerk and scapegoat blame for his behavior on anyone other than on the professor.
Whalen can patrol my neighborhood anytime. Someone toss her a beer.
Ms BO
14 years ago
I saw the press conference and it made me want to spit. That dumb bitch of a lawyer went out of her way to accuse Sgt Crowley of “over reacting”.
Tom in Ca
14 years ago
Actually, I am quite happy as a Conservative that Mr. Obama won the election. It had to happen sometime, and unless he does a 180, his actions should bring back a conservative swing to the country. As the economy tanks further this year, despite the MSM’s attempt to carry his water, people will gradually move back to the center. Keep it up big boy. Your doing just swell.
Timothy
14 years ago
My advice to President Obama…..if you don’t know the whole story, then DON’T COMMENT……it’s a local mater !
Your words have impact and a mispoken sentimate or comment can set forth a chain of events that can have consequences. This poor lady apparently got a lot of grief and racist comments for essentially BEING A GOOD NEIGHBOR. If she were my neighbor, I would had thanked her for caring.
Mr. President, you owe the police officer and this lady an apology. It doesn’t have to be a public, you can write them a brief note or give a phone call. IMHO.
moose: If in your living memory you had experienced treatment from authorities with this type of hateful mindset, you might be defensive as well.
…..snip……..
It’s alot like saying to Conservatives when they hang on to emotional baggage, cry foul, and become negative when they look at the last election, and our country and aren’t happy with it: hey, sorry, just get over it, calm down! Work harder next election. Everybody had a chance to vote, you had and still have equal opportunity to present your candidate and express your views, everything is equal, why is there so much anger toward the choice Americans made in the election? You weren’t discriminated against. Shame on you!
mooose, I swear when reading your posts, and seeing the way your brain reacts, I have to believe there’s not much going on between the antlers.
Gates holds no monopoly on “treatment from authorities”. Nor do blacks in general. People like Gates feed off their “experiences”. Yet here you are, making excuses for him as a victim. He’s no victim. He’s a defective human being and a dangerous one when he passes on his hate and bigotry to America’s youth in a classroom… his own personal little madrassa.
There is no excuse for a long term grudge and a distrust of all law enforcement officers save from a truly f*#ked up mind filled with hate and self-pity.
Secondly, what conservative “emotional baggage” are you referring to? That we don’t like doubling and tripling the national debt in a matter of months? That they’re printing enough funny money in the basement of the Fed to make toilet paper more valuable in the near future? Or that they are trying to “reform” health care and cut costs without having one item that addresses the things that drives health care up?
Railing against these issues is not “emotional baggage”. It’s called the right to redress grievances and is found in the First Amendment. No one here is claiming the election is stolen. And I’m here to tell you, none of us are dumb enough to stand back idly and watch Obama/Pelosi/Reid destroy the US economy for a few years and then speak up at election time. You want emotional baggage? Look back between 2001 and 2005… you’ll find plenty. But it sure ain’t on the conservative side.
And BTW, if you haven’t looked over your shoulder, you’ll find it’s not just conservatives that are speaking up with that First Amendment “emotional baggage”.
So is there a contradiction as to what Whalen says and what Cowley has said in his report? Either way anyone calling Whalen racist for doing the right thing has clearly lost the plot.
This new “community organizing” mentality of turning citizen against citizen may work well for the Big Zero and his power grab, but it will destroy the social relationships in this country. “post racial” my ass…. Gates deliberately inflamed racial tensions here because he’s a defective human, and Obama deliberately chimed in with a few truck loads of coal to keep the racial fires a’burning. As Wordsmith pointed out in another thread, Thomas Sowell nailed Obama and his “community organizing” agenda correctly.
Gaffa #12: why are you asking that question? Mike has posted the police report, and the video from Whalen is above. Can you not read yourself?
mooseburger
14 years ago
Mata said: “Gates deliberately inflamed racial tensions here because he’s a defective human”
Wow, that’s great Mata, excellent observation…..it sounds like your getting as much mileage from the incident as you say Gates did, and enjoying every mile. By pointing out how defective others are, it sure makes the contrast of the discussion become boiled down to it essence doesn’t it. “they” are defective, and I would have to ask, who are the ones who are not defective, Mata? But I think we probably already know that……
A quick story to illustrate why I wouldn’t call Gates “defective”, and have a bit of thought toward understanding his mindset, if not being in complete agreement with his actions:
Back in 1967, when I and my brother had just left our Boy Scout meeting, wearing our uniforms and waiting at the local Dairy Queen for our parents to pick us up, we were standing in line for a frosty cone. The line was kind of long, and we were laughing and joking around. There was another Scout there from our troop, in line ahead of us, and he had put on a baseball hat, and was still wearing his uniform. My brother points at him and yells out, “Look, it’s a big leaguer” talking about our friend and his baseball hat.
About that time, an older Black man turned around, visibly upset, thinking he had heard something else from my Brother. The look on his face was between wanting to cry, and wanting to fight, and being kids, we just laughed, tried not to look at him, knowing what he thought he heard, but not worrying that he could really do anything to us or say anything, since he was the only Black guy in the place, and some other people had started laughing at him by now as well. He was tore down from the floor down, and I still remember the look on his face.
As time went by, and I began to reflect on what that guy was feeling and thinking, what caused him to hear what he thought he had heard, and yes, even what effect that might have had on him. He had a conditioned reaction based on his experience. I began to not be very proud of laughing at the guys expense, and wished I had went and told him what my brother had really said and shown him not everyone here thought it was funny, all of us laughing at him knew exactly what the situation for him was, and we didn’t care at the time.
That old Black guy’s reaction makes him no more defective than a soldier who ducks or goes for his concealed weapon when a car backfires and startles him because he has been in battle, is a defective person. If you could even grasp a small part of what that soldier had been through, you wouldn’t think it funny, nor would you call him defective.
Telling an older Black guy he is defective for having a conditioned response when he is in a stressful situation, is like telling that soldier he is defective, not knowing what he has been through. The persons actions may be the wrong actions to take, and Gates clearly could have diffused the matter, and the soldier clearly could have ignored his instincts as well. It doesn’t make them defective, only folks who have issues to resolve in their lives.
It’s really not funny at all, and I think your claim of Gates being a “defective Human” shows much about you, but at least you did concede that he is a human……
Have you walked a mile in Gate’s shoes?
Old Trooper
14 years ago
Moose, ever visit an Indian Reservation? I have. Blacks have no monopoly on ill treatment.
Do you know what happened to Native American Community Organizers? The Army killed them outright with great enthusiasm, herded the survivors onto reservations that are still there so lets get off the sympathy for Gates, Farrakhan, Jesse Jackson and the disciples of Al Sharpton.
Gates is a professional victim and full of racist venom. Gates fell short compared to Booker T. Washington.
“There is a class of colored people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs-partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs.”
Booker T. Washington, 1911.
Tom in Ca
14 years ago
Haven’t walked any miles in Gate’s shoes. I actually when out an earned my business by hard work, I wasn’t handed some dumb professor position by liberal lackey driven by some weird guilt complex.
By the way, great memory from 1967. Don’t believe a word of it, but it kept my interest for a sentence and a half. Well, at least a sentence.
I’m not apologizing, nor changing my opinion. Bigots are defective humans. Jihad terrorists are also defective humans. Serial killers are defective. They are people who are driven by an unmitigated and unwarranted hatred, and disregard for other humans. I suspect that would answer your question as to whom I don’t feel is defective.
Now dumber than a box of rocks is a much larger category of humans…
Had that particular officer been an “experience” of Gates in the past, his bigotry would not be a blanket variety, but a beef with a particular human. For Gates to harbor a grudge against all law enforcement (and we are unaware of any personal incidents similar in his past) is no different than if I said I harbor that same resentment and hatred for every black in America. But if I said that to you, you’d waste no time making excuses for me, and would condemn me as a racist in a heartbeat.
Which begs the question of you… why are you so willing to make excuses for Gates and his bigotry?
Nor will you find me making excuses for the Boston cop who’s article you keep posting over and over again in order to somehow elevate Gates. He’s just as bad, IMHO.
Nice little tale you told, tho I don’t get your point. The older gentleman didn’t turn around a deliver a ration of hatred towards you, as Gates did towards Crowley merely for investigating a 911 burglary call. The two men couldn’t be further apart in quality of human. There is a difference between being sensitive, and being filled with aggressive hatred towards a particular race. You would not accept that of me, as a granddaughter of slavic immigrants because I’m caucasian. Your dual standards are truly offensive.
That said, I’ll certainly let you know I don’t give a flip about what you think of me. You’re not one here who’s respect I’d appreciate and treasure. Tho I have to say, you sure take a phrase and weave an extraordinary tale of what supposedly I meant with that phrasing, not to mention how vast a net you decided to cast for me for inclusion. (i.e. you saying “…“they” are defective, and I would have to ask, who are the ones who are not defective, Mata? But I think we probably already know that……) Yo… box of rocks. Who said “they”? Only you. What *I* said was Gates was a defective human. Singular pronoun. You do know what a pronoun is, yes?
My suggestion is you quit trying to speak for me, since you obviously have your hands full with your own gray matter.
mooseburger
14 years ago
Old Trooper:
I spent two weeks out in Arizona on the Hopi and Navaho reservations, and your point is very well taken. (Best vacation I ever had, Chaco Canyon is awsome)
The Booker T. Washington quote is true today as well, but works both ways.
Rush and Ann Coulter sure don’t mind making money from their side of the grievances either, and continually seek to widen the gap, inflame the like minded, and rake in the dough.
One side is no better than the other in that regard, and neither lifts a finger to bridge the gap.
Hey Mossy… What was that about “emotional baggage” earlier?
Then followed by this: “Back in 1967, when I and my brother had just left our Boy Scout meeting, wearing our uniforms and waiting at the local Dairy Queen for our parents to pick us up.”
Someone’s got some baggage here and it’s not conservatives.
As time went by, and I began to reflect on what that guy was feeling and thinking, what caused him to hear what he thought he had heard, and yes, even what effect that might have had on him.
Is this him:
Could explain quite a bit…. 😀
Moose, I actually liked your “teachable moment” anectdotal. I offered one myself, elsewhere (middle of #26).
Part of the lesson I came away with from your story, though, is how the man heard what “wasn’t there”, and how thanks to your not setting the record straight then and there, it reinforces the presumption on the part of that man, of a sense of persecution of racism….even when it’s not present. Basically a figment of the imagination and he will use that incident to tell his friends how he was the victim of the “N” word by American boy scouts….how racism is alive and well in America….maybe even write a book about his experience and give lectures.
BTW, moose… INRE that officer in Boston who got suspended for using the phrase “jungle monkey” in an email. Notice how he was immediately disciplined for being politically incorrect?
How long do you think it will take Harvard to discipline Gates for his racial slurs? I’d love to see you hold your breath…
Dual standards… feh and horse manure.
mooseburger
14 years ago
Mataa Said: “Nice little tale you told, tho I don’t get your point. The older gentleman didn’t turn around a deliver a ration of hatred towards you, as Gates did towards Crowley merely for investigating a 911 burglary call.”
The older gentleman couldn’t do anything, the place was full of people, half of them laughing at him, he wasn’t in his own home like Gates was.
And as for what I think of you Mata, I do respect your intellect, you dig deeper than anyone to find facts to support your views, and are the very most formidable opponent one would dare to disagree with.
I simply questioned why only Gates was singled out as a “defective human”, and not the cop who is suspended in the link I posted. You addressed that, and who else is defective in your view.
When you start calling people defective because of their perceived racial bigotry, like you did with Gates, while not knowing his life experience, then your only seeing half of the story, the half that you want to see, and drawing your conclusions from that. Even Colin Powell says he has been racially profiled before, so you don’t know what Gates has been through unless you have walked a mile in his shoes, and perhaps it is a bit quick to judge if he is indeed “defective” until we know more about the fellow and his life he has led.
moose: When you start calling people defective because of their perceived racial bigotry, like you did with Gates, while not knowing his life experience, then your only seeing half of the story, the half that you want to see, and drawing your conclusions from that.
moose, I am not unaware of his childhood and career, as my above comment states. The moment this happened, this research junkie started researching his past. He dropped out of Yale law school in 1975 when he was 25 years old after going thru some local colleges before earning his BA summa cum laude undergrad at Yale. He spent six years after high school running thru colleges, and protesting the Vietnam war. This makes him little different than most of that era, save he got to run the ivy league campuses. The man’s a member of the CFR, for heavens sake. How deprived do you think he is at the age of 60?
My disdain for him is heightened because he’s had a life most would envy, a plethora of opportunity, and he rewards those coming up in the educational system by spreading racial hatred to the university students. Even O’Reilly, a student at Harvard while Gates was a professor, spoke of his reputation on campus for hypersensitivity and temperment.
He’s had opportunities most of any race did not. It’s admirable that he seized those opportunities and ran with them. It is defective to harbor resentment based on history books and not personal experience… especially in light of his prolific career and basically uneventful past.
And what’s this “perceived racial bigotry”?? Nothing “perceived” about it. He’s quite vocal about it, in case you haven’t noticed.
BTW, moose… don’t you think that Gates should be disciplined by the university, as the Boston cop was by the department? Or you’re gonna give him a pass for skin color?
Liam
14 years ago
I understand your position moose, but would that soldier be justified for shooting up a car after it backfires? Gates has probably seen and experienced a lot that I never will, but it still is not a license. Crowley did what he was supposed to and was punished for it. The old lady and Lucia Whalen did what they were supposed to, and were punished for it. Don’t you get it? We aren’t rewarding a good job here… these people are having to deal with assaults against their lives and character. I have only seen massive support for Crowley from all colors. You think any more people will want to take a chance like this? Why do you think the Romans lined the roads into Rome with the crucified? We too are lining ours.
This is not a ‘teachable’ moment. Teachable moments occur when we show our kids how to serve our community. When our kids witness us doing the right thing. When they /see/ us treat others as equals. The ‘teachable’ moment Obama and the liberal world refer to is the, “do as I say not as I do.” They reacted based on their presupposition on race and paid for it. Unfortunately for Crowley, all he did was reacted correctly to the situation. Its like the kid in class that can’t help but beat up other kids. So now everyone has to sit through lectures on why it is important to be nice. If anything you only arouse the beast of burden.
Now on to the real issue: the arresting officer did the right thing. You are basing logic and argument around bleeding heart sympathy. Or at least letting it guide truth and decision making. While your story is moving (truly, not just saying that sarcastically) there are dire consequences for this kind of reaction from a black professor and a white police officer that did nothing wrong. The fact we are even discussing this, means there is a disagreement about what happened with the arrest. Whether it was how it started or ended, something about the situation is not agreeable between us. I am saying the police officer did the right thing, followed procedure, Gates overreacted (justified to him or not), and the outcome should be color blind. Meaning if the arresting officer was black and the person being arrested was an old white guy.
What exactly do you disagree with? Plus, it is hardly worth mentioning that Obama should keep his uninformed mouth shut about this stuff. Is that disagreeable? What is the major malfunction? Yes, I get it.. black people were treated unjust. Not by me, not by my father, or my grandfather etc.. but I’m white, so I need to partake in the guilt? It was black tribes that sold many of the slaves that ended up coming to america. Shouldn’t they pay reparations? Maybe a little guilt? No, its reverse racism, and the left needs something to bleed for besides this country.
What’s all this stuff coming up about Gates and his childhood hardships? Other than his football injury (source of his limp), the guy blew thru Yale (poor deprived black one). No doubt affirmative action played a big role since he wrote on his Yale application:
“As always, whitey now sits in judgment of me, preparing to cast my fate. It is your decision either to let me blow with the wind as a nonentity or to encourage the development of self. Allow me to prove myself.”
Right… how many kids end up in Yale, despite good grades? Certainly my parents couldn’t afford the ivy league schools.
He’s led a charmed life, going thru adulthood well into the aftereffects of the Civil Rights Act. Looks like his biggest blow to his career was being denied tenure at Yale. Wow… so abused.
The man vacations at his summer home in Martha’s Vineyard. This is not a man who was beaten down by racism anymore than Obama was. He’s had opportunity, and he took advantage of that. Where, pray tell, is all this hatred supposedly coming from? Because it’s certainly not in the circumstance of his life.
mooseburger
14 years ago
Wordsmith: Exactly correct, that old gentleman perceived racism where it wasn’t even there. And no doubt he passed that story on and an.
America is the greatest country for many reasons, and one big one is that we fought a war to free the slaves, (States Rights). A wrong was righted, and the road was never going to be an easy one. Personally, I believe it could be another 50-100 years before all living memory of discrimination is gone and folks look back and think, wow, that sounds like a strange thing for people to be doing, strange that Blacks and White would be calling each other racists involving peripheral issues.
I worked as a Cartographer for a couple years, working with Indiana sections, plotting the deed descriptions at 400 scale on areal photos for each land parcel, so the counties could get the records in order (and hopefully, more property taxes in the bargain.)
I saw deeds from Presidential land grants on up to present, I cannot tell you how many deeds had covenants written in that were legal before 1964, preventing any person with Negro Blood to own or be conveyed that property. Those deeds still read that way today, unless there has been a new survey done to change the legal description. When I was young, and first got my license, I drove down to a town called Brownstown, in Jackson County, Indiana, and saw a sign at the city limits that read: “N*****, be out of town by sundown” Blacks when I was growing up knew to stay out of that town.
My point being that the old black gentleman didn’t need much convincing that something was said when in fact it wasn’t. He was already hurtin’ inside before I ever saw him.
A great man will rise up above all against him and America gives him the opportunity to succeed in all he does. Were that we were all great men and rise above every challenge. That day will come I believe, but it is still a ways off and there is more work to do, from both ends of the spectrum.
Liam Said: “I understand your position moose, but would that soldier be justified for shooting up a car after it backfires?”
Not in any way, and I did mention that Gates could have diffused the situation if he had chosen to do it. I just don’t see him as a defective person because of his actions unless I know a hell of alot more about him. I don’t have time or inclination to figure everyone and their situation out, so, I chose to not see it as the end of the world, give both sides a break but trying to understand their potential reference point in the matter, and move on. The cop didn’t like being bad mouthed about his Mother, and I don’t blame him a bit for that, and would have taken great offense myself.
Some on either side want to push their beliefs and agendas, and take extreem positions to promote their views. It is interesting to note that both sides of the issue feel racially biased against.
Just what would one expect to be the case in a Country that has done something no other country ever did, not just let slaves earn their freedom, but fight a war and grant that freedom, knowing the cost was, and still is today, so very high, and that a very large portion who lost the war still held the same views after the war as they did before? And only because it was doing what was the right thing to do? And knowing that to work through a social issue like this would be as monumental a social task as has been undertaken by any society in history. You can’t fault America in any way for that, and to me, these type of flareups are to be expected, and it is just a family squabble in the big scheme of things.
mooseburger
14 years ago
Mata Said: “BTW, moose… don’t you think that Gates should be disciplined by the university, as the Boston cop was by the department? Or you’re gonna give him a pass for skin color?”
If the two guys involved in the incident can work their differences out, why would I be hoping for Gates to be diciplined? And what has anyone’s skin color got to do with it?
Gaffa #12: why are you asking that question? Mike has posted the police report, and the video from Whalen is above. Can you not read yourself?
I’ve read the report and Whalen’s statement above doesn’t shine a light on the below…
According to Whalen’s lawyer
Let me be clear: She never had a conversation with Sgt. Crowley at the scene,” Murphy told CNN by phone. “And she never said to any police officer or to anybody ‘two black men.’ She never used the word ‘black.’ Period.”
Wordsmith: Exactly correct, that old gentleman perceived racism where it wasn’t even there. And no doubt he passed that story on and an.
My point from that, is that there are moments like these today, where no racism is present (such as Crowley on Gates), yet is perceived by those carrying racial chips on their shoulder.
Personally, I believe it could be another 50-100 years before all living memory of discrimination is gone and folks look back and think, wow, that sounds like a strange thing for people to be doing, strange that Blacks and White would be calling each other racists involving peripheral issues.
So long as the Farrakhans, Sharptons, Wrights, and yes, Gates Jr. (all benefiting financially, I might add, by promoting racial discord), keep lecturing about how racism is alive and well in the U.S., racism will be kept alive and well. They will keep people living in paranoia and give them scapegoats for anything in their lives that can be deemed unfortunate.
When I was young, and first got my license, I drove down to a town called Brownstown, in Jackson County, Indiana, and saw a sign at the city limits that read: “N*****, be out of town by sundown” Blacks when I was growing up knew to stay out of that town.
And that is terrible. But 40-50 years ago. I believe we’d be even further along if the race profiteers weren’t out there, still fighting “the good fight” like it’s still 1960.
My point being that the old black gentleman didn’t need much convincing that something was said when in fact it wasn’t. He was already hurtin’ inside before I ever saw him.
And I feel bad for the man and wish at the time, you did explain to him what was actually said, and that others weren’t there laughing at him (based on racist insensitivity). But that was 40 years ago. Today? I think mostly what perpetuates racism are the race agitators like Wright, Farrakhan, and Sharpton. Obama contributed to it when he made a presidential comment, giving credence and credibility to the charge of racism and “rogue cop” on the part of Gates Jr. It leads to this.
A great man will rise up above all against him and America gives him the opportunity to succeed in all he does. Were that we were all great men and rise above every challenge. That day will come I believe, but it is still a ways off and there is more work to do, from both ends of the spectrum.
If the cycle of racism is to end, then the agitators should be first in line to jump off that bandwagon. They aren’t exposing racism in America, but creating it.
And did you just call “Gates Jr.” a “great man”? Maybe you were speaking in general. As Mata pointed out, Gates Jr. has led a pretty “privileged life” in terms of opportunity. Isn’t he like third generation, anyway, in regards to college opportunities? I can’t remember where I might have come across that…
Could definitely be wrong about it, and confused with someone else, right now.
It is interesting to note that both sides of the issue feel racially biased against.
Yes, but in this specific instance, which side incurs all the blame? Deflecting it to “centuries of oppression” as a contributing factor, doesn’t really fly with me.
Just what would one expect to be the case in a Country that has done something no other country ever did, not just let slaves earn their freedom, but fight a war and grant that freedom, knowing the cost was, and still is today, so very high, and that a very large portion who lost the war still held the same views after the war as they did before?
Those “large portion who lost the war” are dead and buried. I don’t know anyone alive today who thinks we should have slave plantations.
Just what would one expect to be the case in a Country that has done something no other country ever did, not just let slaves earn their freedom, but fight a war and grant that freedom
Sounds like Moose believes that the Civil War was fought over slavery.
Tom in Ca
14 years ago
Mooseburger,
I grew up outside of Gary Indiana, and as a cracker, I knew driving through there near dusk or night was suicide. So what’s your point?
And stop with the fading memories, will ya? No one on this thread believes your convenient stories.
gaffa, INRE the police report and Crowley’s lawyer, and what you feel are discrepancies. I suggest you are reading something that is not there.
Whalen, when asked by the 911 dispatcher as to what the suspects looked like (gotta have an idea, ya know)… ala “Are they white, black or Hispanic?”… said she thought, but wasn’t sure that one was Hispanic.
The police report says, verbatim:
When I arrived at (redacted) Ware Street, I radioed ECC and asked that they have the caller meet me at the front door to this residence. I was told the caller was already outside. As I reached the door, a female voice called out to me. I turned and looked in the direction of the voice, and observed a white female, later identified as Lucia Whalen. Whalen, who was standing on the sidewalk in front of the residence, held a wireless telephon in her hand and told me it was she who called. She went on to tell me that she observed what appeared to be two black males with backpacks on the porch of (redacted) Ware Street.
I derive several things from this…. it was not Crowley who put a name to the female on the spot as he specificially says “later identified as Lucia Whalen”. This can be a matter of Crowley speaking with someone on the sidewalk, and the 911 dispatcher putting the caller’s name to the person with whom Crowley was speaking. The report is filed close to immediately to capture the details while fresh in the memory.
I also suggest that, were it truly such a hullaballoo, the taped conversations between Crowley asking for the caller to be available at the residence is easily verifiable.
And the last cincher for me is that the 911 call was made on 7/16 at 12:44pm. Crowley’s report was filed at 1:21pm, 36 minutes later. This was way in advance of the media ta’doo, and Obama’s insertion of race 6 days later. Understand this… a standard report filed 36 minutes after the incident CANNOT be a “cover your butt” moment when the sheeeeet didn’t fly in the media until almost a week later.
As far as the conversation between Whalen and Crowley with which you take issue, I would be inclined to take Crowley’s report at his word for many reasons, not the least being the report filed well in advance of the media flap: first, he is very detailed in where she is standing, his attention drawn to the voice, the wireless in her hand, etc. The backpacks were actually luggage since Gates was returning from a trip, and the second individual was his driver. They are trained to observe little details and time passage, unlike civilians.
For Whalen, she’s not the professional a law officer is, accustomed to noting details (as Crowley put in his report). Also remember that there was another female who drew her attention to the action, and she didn’t start observing until both men were already in the house (via the 911 call). Considering that Crowley was also not the only officer present at the site after time, she may also not have locked a face with a name into her mind.
Lastly, the woman is genuinely freaked from the threats and assaults she has received since her call as a friendly neighbor to protect that a’hole’s property. Her attorney is making these assertations a week and a half after that filed police report, and post media flap.
With those facts and time stamp observations in mind, it comes down to this…. When making the call, it was an incident “in progress” and there is hesitancy in her voice, wondering if she’s jumping the gun on reporting it, and she states both men are inside the home. After the call, she had time to stand and observe what happened with both men in the house because they would have come out to get the luggage off the porch and the driver would leave prior to Crowley’s arrival. So she knew *more* information about the two men after making the call because she had the opportunity to see both men.
Would she be inclined to backtrack on her post 911 call conversations with a man in blue when it has become so racially charged (and she’s been demeaned and threatened?), thanks to Gates and Obama’s piling on? Absolutely. Especially in a he said/she said scenario where she’s got a 50/50 chance in the public’s eye of being correct. Is it possible Crowley, who doesn’t appear to be the one who ID’ed Whalen, was speaking with the other woman? Perhaps. I have little doubt that he identified himself, but I can also see where the adrenaline of the moment for a civilian can cloud her memory of specifics.
So in this he said/she said situation, I’ll take Crowley’s side because of his judgment and observations less likely to be affected by stress in the moment than Whalen’s, and his documentation of that incident filed as standard procedure and while not a nation wide media story.
Nor do I think this is a big point. Crowley didn’t treat this as a racial issue in his actions, so his part in the police report is strictly documentation of an event, . Identifying suspects via race and physical characteristics is only logical. The only one now with the motive to CYA is Whalen, because of the public calling her a racist.
Aqua
14 years ago
@ Old Trooper
Preach it Old Trooper. And when the ancestors of slaves finally get their reparations, I want my reparations from the ancestors of the Buffalo Soldiers. 😉 They massacred a great number of native Americans.
@mooseburger: You’re funny Moose. You take a post about the woman that was totally demonized by the liberal media, specifically HuffPo, and turn it into a post about some bigot cop on the Boston Police that sent an ignorant email and was suspended and will be fired. A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position. To “attack a straw man” is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the “straw man”), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.
I’ll take your strawman bait. The cop that sent that email is a racist and will be fired. I’m happy he’s going. He does not represent the vast majority of police officers. Gates is a racist. The liberal media is a bunch of race baiting a$$ clowns for drawing a conclusion about Whalen being what? A racist. I don’t hear them apologizing. I don’t hear you apologizing for them. Funny how that works.
moose: If the two guys involved in the incident can work their differences out, why would I be hoping for Gates to be diciplined? And what has anyone’s skin color got to do with it?
So let me see if I understand this correctly. You push and push for condemnation of an angry cop who calls Gates a “jungle monkey” after he hurls accusations and racial slurs against *all* law enforcement, but you’re cool with no discipline for Gates who verbally abused Crowley and law enforcment en toto with racial slurs?
“what’s skin color” got to do with it? Both used racial slurs. Only one you want the public to condemn and celebrate his discipline, and the other you justify his “feelings”.
Yep… giving him a pass on his skin color. It’s either unacceptable for all, or it’s not. Simple as that. I am not surprised your dual standards remain solidly intact.
@MataHarley: You have to give Mossy a break. He’s still traumatized by that racial incident outside the Dairy Queen in 1967. I guess he won’t be calling anyone a “major leaguer” from now on.
mooseburger
14 years ago
WordSmith said: “So long as the Farrakhans, Sharptons, Wrights, and yes, Gates Jr. (all benefiting financially, I might add, by promoting racial discord), keep lecturing about how racism is alive and well in the U.S., racism will be kept alive and well. They will keep people living in paranoia and give them scapegoats for anything in their lives that can be deemed unfortunate.”
“Those “large portion who lost the war” are dead and buried. I don’t know anyone alive today who thinks we should have slave plantations.”
Maybe I’m not getting your point on this.
True enough, and that goes as well for the Limbaugh’s and Coulter’s who make good money magnifying any slight the other direction. The folks you mentioned and the one’s I just mentioned have no interests and put zero effort into finding common ground or offering resolutions, they only seek to magnify conflict and rake in the dough.
And no, I wasn’t calling Gates a great man and was speaking in general.
Slave plantations, no, but the institutional implementation of second class citizenship, that hung on for another hundred years or so. My point is things are still raw, the wounds are not all the way healed yet, and the sensitivity when that wound is touched, from both sides of the fence, is evidence of that even today.
Aye said: “Sounds like Moose believes that the Civil War was fought over slavery.”
My understanding is the issue was really States rights
Mata said: “You push and push for condemnation of an angry cop who calls Gates a “jungle monkey” after he hurls accusations and racial slurs against *all* law enforcement, but you’re cool with no discipline for Gates who verbally abused Crowley and law enforcment en toto with racial slurs?”
No, I asked why Gates was (in your words) a defective Human and the Boston Cop I posted the link about got not a peep of condemnation from you until, yes, you were pushed on that issue.
As for the cop who made the racist emails, that is a different event, and I would bet that every case that officer testified about in court involving Black people who were convicted based on his testimony will be challenged by every Defense Atty who is worth his salts. The implications for a Police Officer who has the ability to implement his racism onto the public and potentially imprison people goes way beyond the damage an average citizen is able to accomplish. I don’t see that as a double standard, just the way it is.
Which leads me to Aqua, who said: “You take a post about the woman that was totally demonized by the liberal media, specifically HuffPo, and turn it into a post about some bigot cop on the Boston Police that sent an ignorant email and was suspended and will be fired. A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position.”
You have a point that my first response to the post did not directly relate to the Lady who called in the report and the poor treatment she received. It was just posting an example of the the fact that Gates mindset, although flawed, has a basis in the fact that the hatred he perceived in his mind (if real or not in this instance) and over reacted to has existed, and still exists today, and is part of the experience he has had in his life that gave him that bad attitude he has. I don’t believe that I have said one bad word about the officer who arrested him, and in fact, have stated that Gates could have handled the situation in a much better way.
Mike said:”I guess he won’t be calling anyone a “major leaguer” from now on.”
Lol, I will be sure to use good pronounciation anyway….
@mooseburger: Just what I would expect from a “Major Leaguer” Mossy Played the Moral Equivalence Card (a favorite of racebaiters when backed into a corner) in an attempt to justify the racebaiting industry that keeps blacks angry and on the plantation. “the Limbaugh’s and Coulter’s who make good money magnifying any slight the other direction. “
If racism did not exist the “Limbaugh’s and Coulter’s” would have just as many fans as their careers do not depend on the racebaiting industry for support. Try reading Coulter’s columns or listening to Rush before you paint them with the same brush as Sharpton, Jackson or Gates.
Without the spectre of racism, which those men, Sharpton, Jackson and Gates fan, what would they do for a living?
It’s clear Mossy cannot defend the overt use of racism by these men. So why push the phony moral equivalence?
mooseburger
14 years ago
Mike:
What I said was that ALL the folks mentioned work the angle of reaction and division, never seeming to see or offering any middle ground. To both sides it is literally Black and White. Coulter and Limbaugh are no different than Sharpton when it comes to seeing enemies all around, and pointing out injustices and playing that angle for everything they can get. They all depend on having enemies for their paychecks.
I have made no attempt to defend anyone’s racism, nor would I want to. People that seek division and exploit it are just that way. Sharpton has folks who like him and agree with him, as does Rush. Two ends of the spectrum, paychecks in the bank, and never the twain shall meet. Nor would they want to, because they play as much to what their fan base expects as they do what they probably really believe. The race baiting industry has two polarities, and I wouldn’t care to defend either of them, but I don’t have a problem trying to figure out how they came to be and why they are still a strong force in our society.
moose: No, I asked why Gates was (in your words) a defective Human and the Boston Cop I posted the link about got not a peep of condemnation from you until, yes, you were pushed on that issue.
moose, the Boston cop is not part of the main event. He is only one of, no doubt, a multitude of byproduct events that you inserted from “left” field s a straw man (as Aqua pointed out) in this race battle that Gates/Obama decided to wage. Why would I bother veering off in that direction you decided to take off topic?
I don’t care about that Boston cop. He is just one more defective bigoted human inhabiting the planet who, if not for this incident, would never have have an iota of press with his heated response. I do not have the time, nor patience, to “condemn” them all merely to appease you, and prove that when I say… racist tirades are unacceptable for EVERYONE, or else they are acceptable from EVERYONE. Gates, and no individual of any race, gets no pass on this shit from me.
Now I demand you condemn Gates, since you did the same from me INRE the Boston cop. No dual standards available for you from me.
moose: As for the cop who made the racist emails, that is a different event, and I would bet that every case that officer testified about in court involving Black people who were convicted based on his testimony will be challenged by every Defense Atty who is worth his salts. The implications for a Police Officer who has the ability to implement his racism onto the public and potentially imprison people goes way beyond the damage an average citizen is able to accomplish. I don’t see that as a double standard, just the way it is.
No shit, Sherlock… different event, which is why I’ve been ignoring it for your demand… “do I have do condemn everyone individually” mentality. But, as Aqua said, you brought it up as a straw man. Both he and I have acknowledged this cop’s flawed characteristics.
I’m still waiting for yours INRE Gates.
However I take major issue with your second sentence of the comment, beginning with “The impications for a police officer who has the ability to implement his racism…. Apparently, you still believe Crowley is a “racist”.
So I suggest you start putting your money when your mouth is, since I already went thru the timeline for Gaffa in comment #36. Frankly, I see no “racism” in Crowley’s report and actions. On the other hand, I see plenty in Gates’ instinctive response…. long int’l flight or not. It’s almost as good as sodium P.
I see only desperate self-defense to back track in Whalen’s attorney responses a week and a half AFTER the damn police report has been filed because she’s been assaulted by the Alinsky/Obama “community organizer” machine… of which you (whether you know it or not) have become a working cog.
Now let’s talk about the damage an “average citizen” is able to accomplish against injustice, moose. I said on this thread, or another (they all blend together), that I hope that Gates sues, and that Crowley responds, countersues for damages and walks away with all Gates’ homes in Cambridge and Martha’s Vineyard (minimally) and breaks the a’hole. I assure you, there is AMPLE recourse for a citizen under our system for injustice. And if you haven’t learned that yet, you need to hit the books on the US Constitution as the Founders/Framers laid out… and the not Constitution Obama tells you exists. I guarantee you, as of this moment it still operates on the former, and not the latter. The recourse is real, and potentially profitable in our trial lawyer society.
mooseburger
14 years ago
Mata Said: “However I take major issue with your second sentence of the comment, beginning with “The impications for a polic officer who has the ability to implement his racism…. Apparently, you still believe Crowley is a “racist”. ”
I never once contended that Crowley was a racist, and in fact asserted that I would be majorly offended too if someone insulted my Mom, as well as that Gates could have diffused the situation. So you can keep your straw man argument unless you can show where I have in fact contended Crowley is Racist.
I was talking about the Boston Officer who wrote the racist email in regards to how his court cases could be impacted by defense atty’s.
Mata Said: “Now I demand you condemn Gates, since you did the same from me INRE the Boston cop. No dual standards available for you from me.”
Mata said: “You push and push for condemnation of an angry cop who calls Gates a “jungle monkey” after he hurls accusations and racial slurs against *all* law enforcement, but you’re cool with no discipline for Gates who verbally abused Crowley and law enforcment en toto with racial slurs?”
Mata, First you contended that I demanded something from you, which I didn’t, now you are demanding something from me. I have neither pushed you for condemnation, nor demanded it. I was simply puzzled by your eagerness to deem Gates a “defective Human” and your silence on the officer who sent the racist email and asked a question about that. It struck me as a bit odd that you would be so quick to see one side as a defective human, and silent on the racist email about Gates. So, I was curious if your silence was implying consent, (which I would have a hard time thinking of you that way after our conversations up to this point) or If you had said it was a side issue from the start, and you weren’t going to address it and stay on topic of the posting here, that would be another thing as well. But you slowly started tossing out other forms of humanity who you define as defective, and they keep coming. I never agreed or disagreed on who was defective or not, I simply said that I would need to know much more about the guy (Gates) before I would call him defective.
The whole point of what I have posted so far is to NOT be condemning people just because I think they are wrong or I disagree with them. Just try to figure out who stands where, and perhaps why they do.
moose: The whole point of what I have posted so far is to NOT be condemning people just because I think they are wrong or I disagree with them. Just try to figure out who stands where, and perhaps why they do.
Well geez, moose… let us know when you catch up with the rest of us, and ultimately make a decision as to “who stands where”…. I’m sure we’re all waiting with baited breath. Tho most of us have already caught the obvious and at-your-fingertips available data of Gates historic past and his teaching reputation vs Crowley’s law enforcement records.
In the meantime, I can only say to you… are you so PC drugged you can’t see the obvious? Gates was a bigot in his actions. Crowley was pure law enforcement officer with no color involved.
You pull in the Boston cop and say
“No condemnation of this guy or saying anything about him as defective though, right Mata?”…
…. then have the damn chutzpah to say
“First you contended that I demanded something from you, which I didn’t, now you are demanding something from me. I have neither pushed you for condemnation, nor demanded it.”
I am not senile, moose. I read, I consider and ponder, and I pocket for future use. And you make it very easy to recall every bit your slow steps to straw and sidestepping BS when all I have to do is “cut/paste” to boot.
You did “demand” via your words… and I quote: “no condemnation of this guy… snip….right, Mata?”
Now I bloody well demand of you your condemnation of Gates as a bigot, or leave me the hell alone with this BS. I will not play this distraction/straw man game with you. The point is Gates or Crowley is the racist based on records…. sans your PC excuses.
mooseburger
14 years ago
Mata: I made an observation about your statement that Gates is a “defective human” in the form of a question. You were being challenged to defend your statement, and I don’t know how that equates to being a demand.
This is a great example of you setting up a straw man below:
Mata said: “Apparently, you still believe Crowley is a “racist”. ”
I reponded: “I never once contended that Crowley was a racist, and in fact asserted that I would be majorly offended too if someone insulted my Mom, as well as that Gates could have diffused the situation. So you can keep your straw man argument unless you can show where I have in fact contended Crowley is Racist.”
You haven’t shown where I in any way intimated that Crowley is racist, or acted in a racist way during the arrest. That is because you can’t.
Mata said: “Now I bloody well demand of you your condemnation of Gates as a bigot, or leave me the hell alone with this BS. I will not play this distraction/straw man game with you. The point is Gates or Crowley is the racist based on records…. sans your PC excuses.”
I suppose you can bloody well demand anything you like, but that doesn’t mean that is the way I see the issue just because that’s how you see it. We have only responded to each other’s comments , and it is called a discussion, and hopefully it can be a civil one.
ditto
14 years ago
My question to Obama, Gates and Biden is: Did Crowley teach them anything?
Did those three perhaps learn that there are times when you should just S-T-F-U?
This is a great example of you setting up a straw man below:
Mata said: “Apparently, you still believe Crowley is a “racist”. ”
Actually it would be more of an arguement by digression. But even that is stretching it. She pretty much stayed with the argument. You need to bone up on your rhetorical fallacies.
Well, it wasn’t said in the article, but I thought it was clearly implied that it was accepted as an apology. Perhaps I’m wrong.
The flowers came with a note from Gates, the contents of which Murphy would not disclose.
“[Whalen] said that she really appreciated it,” Murphy said. “She’s been getting a lot of apologies and people have been saying nice things.”
And no, I personally don’t think it’s sexist or insulting to buy a woman flowers. I’ve done so for female coworkers I’ve fought with on occasion myself. It ALWAYS went over well.
Although now I prefer to propagate some of my houseplants and give them as gifts to both genders.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2009/07/officer_suspend.html
This kind of stuff doesn’t help, and legitimizes the mindset that Mr. Gates had during the incident, at least to him in his experience. If in your living memory you had experienced treatment from authorities with this type of hateful mindset, you might be defensive as well.
It is sad that the Lady who called in the report felt threatened, she never did say exactly who was calling her a Racist, or who was making threats on her……
It’s alot like saying to Conservatives when they hang on to emotional baggage, cry foul, and become negative when they look at the last election, and our country and aren’t happy with it: hey, sorry, just get over it, calm down! Work harder next election. Everybody had a chance to vote, you had and still have equal opportunity to present your candidate and express your views, everything is equal, why is there so much anger toward the choice Americans made in the election? You weren’t discriminated against. Shame on you!
In the police report both Crowley AND Figueroa state that they spoke to Whalen.
That’s the thing I cannot make sense of.
“This kind of stuff doesn’t help, and legitimizes the mindset that Mr. Gates had during the incident, at least to him in his experience. If in your living memory you had experienced treatment from authorities with this type of hateful mindset, you might be defensive as well.”
It does not justify abuse of a police officer. Crowley had no history of offending Gates. Gates was looking to turn this into a new Rodney King episode.
drjohn said: “It does not justify abuse of a police officer.”
We can both agree on that.
Big Al Sharpton, never miss a chance to race bait.
“The Rev. Al Sharpton is taking up the banner of Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr., accusing Cambridge cops of racism for arresting Gates, and vowing to stand by his side at an arraignment next month.”
Do you remember The Tawana Brawley Hoax?
Look at all of the coverage. Look at who jumped on the officer and the reporting party. Remember the news org. and the experts.
Why should she? It’s a reverse-racism-generated belief, perpetuated by a broad range than just specific individuals. It is a charge made by those who want to rationalize Gates’ over-reactive knee-jerk and scapegoat blame for his behavior on anyone other than on the professor.
Whalen can patrol my neighborhood anytime. Someone toss her a beer.
I saw the press conference and it made me want to spit. That dumb bitch of a lawyer went out of her way to accuse Sgt Crowley of “over reacting”.
Actually, I am quite happy as a Conservative that Mr. Obama won the election. It had to happen sometime, and unless he does a 180, his actions should bring back a conservative swing to the country. As the economy tanks further this year, despite the MSM’s attempt to carry his water, people will gradually move back to the center. Keep it up big boy. Your doing just swell.
My advice to President Obama…..if you don’t know the whole story, then DON’T COMMENT……it’s a local mater !
Your words have impact and a mispoken sentimate or comment can set forth a chain of events that can have consequences. This poor lady apparently got a lot of grief and racist comments for essentially BEING A GOOD NEIGHBOR. If she were my neighbor, I would had thanked her for caring.
Mr. President, you owe the police officer and this lady an apology. It doesn’t have to be a public, you can write them a brief note or give a phone call. IMHO.
mooose, I swear when reading your posts, and seeing the way your brain reacts, I have to believe there’s not much going on between the antlers.
Gates holds no monopoly on “treatment from authorities”. Nor do blacks in general. People like Gates feed off their “experiences”. Yet here you are, making excuses for him as a victim. He’s no victim. He’s a defective human being and a dangerous one when he passes on his hate and bigotry to America’s youth in a classroom… his own personal little madrassa.
There is no excuse for a long term grudge and a distrust of all law enforcement officers save from a truly f*#ked up mind filled with hate and self-pity.
Secondly, what conservative “emotional baggage” are you referring to? That we don’t like doubling and tripling the national debt in a matter of months? That they’re printing enough funny money in the basement of the Fed to make toilet paper more valuable in the near future? Or that they are trying to “reform” health care and cut costs without having one item that addresses the things that drives health care up?
Railing against these issues is not “emotional baggage”. It’s called the right to redress grievances and is found in the First Amendment. No one here is claiming the election is stolen. And I’m here to tell you, none of us are dumb enough to stand back idly and watch Obama/Pelosi/Reid destroy the US economy for a few years and then speak up at election time. You want emotional baggage? Look back between 2001 and 2005… you’ll find plenty. But it sure ain’t on the conservative side.
And BTW, if you haven’t looked over your shoulder, you’ll find it’s not just conservatives that are speaking up with that First Amendment “emotional baggage”.
So is there a contradiction as to what Whalen says and what Cowley has said in his report? Either way anyone calling Whalen racist for doing the right thing has clearly lost the plot.
When I heard this lady at a press conference today, nervous about all the attention and skittish from all the threats and abuse merely for being a good citizen, I was immediately reminded of the ACORN/socialist party mobs that swarmed the exec homes back in late March.
This new “community organizing” mentality of turning citizen against citizen may work well for the Big Zero and his power grab, but it will destroy the social relationships in this country. “post racial” my ass…. Gates deliberately inflamed racial tensions here because he’s a defective human, and Obama deliberately chimed in with a few truck loads of coal to keep the racial fires a’burning. As Wordsmith pointed out in another thread, Thomas Sowell nailed Obama and his “community organizing” agenda correctly.
Gaffa #12: why are you asking that question? Mike has posted the police report, and the video from Whalen is above. Can you not read yourself?
Mata said: “Gates deliberately inflamed racial tensions here because he’s a defective human”
Wow, that’s great Mata, excellent observation…..it sounds like your getting as much mileage from the incident as you say Gates did, and enjoying every mile. By pointing out how defective others are, it sure makes the contrast of the discussion become boiled down to it essence doesn’t it. “they” are defective, and I would have to ask, who are the ones who are not defective, Mata? But I think we probably already know that……
http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2009/07/officer_suspend.html
No condemnation of this guy or saying anything about him as defective though, right Mata?
A quick story to illustrate why I wouldn’t call Gates “defective”, and have a bit of thought toward understanding his mindset, if not being in complete agreement with his actions:
Back in 1967, when I and my brother had just left our Boy Scout meeting, wearing our uniforms and waiting at the local Dairy Queen for our parents to pick us up, we were standing in line for a frosty cone. The line was kind of long, and we were laughing and joking around. There was another Scout there from our troop, in line ahead of us, and he had put on a baseball hat, and was still wearing his uniform. My brother points at him and yells out, “Look, it’s a big leaguer” talking about our friend and his baseball hat.
About that time, an older Black man turned around, visibly upset, thinking he had heard something else from my Brother. The look on his face was between wanting to cry, and wanting to fight, and being kids, we just laughed, tried not to look at him, knowing what he thought he heard, but not worrying that he could really do anything to us or say anything, since he was the only Black guy in the place, and some other people had started laughing at him by now as well. He was tore down from the floor down, and I still remember the look on his face.
As time went by, and I began to reflect on what that guy was feeling and thinking, what caused him to hear what he thought he had heard, and yes, even what effect that might have had on him. He had a conditioned reaction based on his experience. I began to not be very proud of laughing at the guys expense, and wished I had went and told him what my brother had really said and shown him not everyone here thought it was funny, all of us laughing at him knew exactly what the situation for him was, and we didn’t care at the time.
That old Black guy’s reaction makes him no more defective than a soldier who ducks or goes for his concealed weapon when a car backfires and startles him because he has been in battle, is a defective person. If you could even grasp a small part of what that soldier had been through, you wouldn’t think it funny, nor would you call him defective.
Telling an older Black guy he is defective for having a conditioned response when he is in a stressful situation, is like telling that soldier he is defective, not knowing what he has been through. The persons actions may be the wrong actions to take, and Gates clearly could have diffused the matter, and the soldier clearly could have ignored his instincts as well. It doesn’t make them defective, only folks who have issues to resolve in their lives.
It’s really not funny at all, and I think your claim of Gates being a “defective Human” shows much about you, but at least you did concede that he is a human……
Have you walked a mile in Gate’s shoes?
Moose, ever visit an Indian Reservation? I have. Blacks have no monopoly on ill treatment.
Do you know what happened to Native American Community Organizers? The Army killed them outright with great enthusiasm, herded the survivors onto reservations that are still there so lets get off the sympathy for Gates, Farrakhan, Jesse Jackson and the disciples of Al Sharpton.
Gates is a professional victim and full of racist venom. Gates fell short compared to Booker T. Washington.
“There is a class of colored people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs-partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs.”
Booker T. Washington, 1911.
Haven’t walked any miles in Gate’s shoes. I actually when out an earned my business by hard work, I wasn’t handed some dumb professor position by liberal lackey driven by some weird guilt complex.
By the way, great memory from 1967. Don’t believe a word of it, but it kept my interest for a sentence and a half. Well, at least a sentence.
I’m not apologizing, nor changing my opinion. Bigots are defective humans. Jihad terrorists are also defective humans. Serial killers are defective. They are people who are driven by an unmitigated and unwarranted hatred, and disregard for other humans. I suspect that would answer your question as to whom I don’t feel is defective.
Now dumber than a box of rocks is a much larger category of humans…
Had that particular officer been an “experience” of Gates in the past, his bigotry would not be a blanket variety, but a beef with a particular human. For Gates to harbor a grudge against all law enforcement (and we are unaware of any personal incidents similar in his past) is no different than if I said I harbor that same resentment and hatred for every black in America. But if I said that to you, you’d waste no time making excuses for me, and would condemn me as a racist in a heartbeat.
Which begs the question of you… why are you so willing to make excuses for Gates and his bigotry?
Nor will you find me making excuses for the Boston cop who’s article you keep posting over and over again in order to somehow elevate Gates. He’s just as bad, IMHO.
Nice little tale you told, tho I don’t get your point. The older gentleman didn’t turn around a deliver a ration of hatred towards you, as Gates did towards Crowley merely for investigating a 911 burglary call. The two men couldn’t be further apart in quality of human. There is a difference between being sensitive, and being filled with aggressive hatred towards a particular race. You would not accept that of me, as a granddaughter of slavic immigrants because I’m caucasian. Your dual standards are truly offensive.
That said, I’ll certainly let you know I don’t give a flip about what you think of me. You’re not one here who’s respect I’d appreciate and treasure. Tho I have to say, you sure take a phrase and weave an extraordinary tale of what supposedly I meant with that phrasing, not to mention how vast a net you decided to cast for me for inclusion. (i.e. you saying “…“they” are defective, and I would have to ask, who are the ones who are not defective, Mata? But I think we probably already know that……) Yo… box of rocks. Who said “they”? Only you. What *I* said was Gates was a defective human. Singular pronoun. You do know what a pronoun is, yes?
My suggestion is you quit trying to speak for me, since you obviously have your hands full with your own gray matter.
Old Trooper:
I spent two weeks out in Arizona on the Hopi and Navaho reservations, and your point is very well taken. (Best vacation I ever had, Chaco Canyon is awsome)
The Booker T. Washington quote is true today as well, but works both ways.
Rush and Ann Coulter sure don’t mind making money from their side of the grievances either, and continually seek to widen the gap, inflame the like minded, and rake in the dough.
One side is no better than the other in that regard, and neither lifts a finger to bridge the gap.
Hey Mossy… What was that about “emotional baggage” earlier?
Then followed by this: “Back in 1967, when I and my brother had just left our Boy Scout meeting, wearing our uniforms and waiting at the local Dairy Queen for our parents to pick us up.”
Someone’s got some baggage here and it’s not conservatives.
Back to the topic here. Ann Coulter had a great column today:
“How About A National Conversation on Race Hoaxes?”
Would someone care to list the number of phony allegations of racism from the last 25 years?
@mooseburger:
Is this him:
Could explain quite a bit…. 😀
Moose, I actually liked your “teachable moment” anectdotal. I offered one myself, elsewhere (middle of #26).
Part of the lesson I came away with from your story, though, is how the man heard what “wasn’t there”, and how thanks to your not setting the record straight then and there, it reinforces the presumption on the part of that man, of a sense of persecution of racism….even when it’s not present. Basically a figment of the imagination and he will use that incident to tell his friends how he was the victim of the “N” word by American boy scouts….how racism is alive and well in America….maybe even write a book about his experience and give lectures.
See how it also works?
BTW, moose… INRE that officer in Boston who got suspended for using the phrase “jungle monkey” in an email. Notice how he was immediately disciplined for being politically incorrect?
How long do you think it will take Harvard to discipline Gates for his racial slurs? I’d love to see you hold your breath…
Dual standards… feh and horse manure.
Mataa Said: “Nice little tale you told, tho I don’t get your point. The older gentleman didn’t turn around a deliver a ration of hatred towards you, as Gates did towards Crowley merely for investigating a 911 burglary call.”
The older gentleman couldn’t do anything, the place was full of people, half of them laughing at him, he wasn’t in his own home like Gates was.
And as for what I think of you Mata, I do respect your intellect, you dig deeper than anyone to find facts to support your views, and are the very most formidable opponent one would dare to disagree with.
I simply questioned why only Gates was singled out as a “defective human”, and not the cop who is suspended in the link I posted. You addressed that, and who else is defective in your view.
When you start calling people defective because of their perceived racial bigotry, like you did with Gates, while not knowing his life experience, then your only seeing half of the story, the half that you want to see, and drawing your conclusions from that. Even Colin Powell says he has been racially profiled before, so you don’t know what Gates has been through unless you have walked a mile in his shoes, and perhaps it is a bit quick to judge if he is indeed “defective” until we know more about the fellow and his life he has led.
moose, I am not unaware of his childhood and career, as my above comment states. The moment this happened, this research junkie started researching his past. He dropped out of Yale law school in 1975 when he was 25 years old after going thru some local colleges before earning his BA summa cum laude undergrad at Yale. He spent six years after high school running thru colleges, and protesting the Vietnam war. This makes him little different than most of that era, save he got to run the ivy league campuses. The man’s a member of the CFR, for heavens sake. How deprived do you think he is at the age of 60?
My disdain for him is heightened because he’s had a life most would envy, a plethora of opportunity, and he rewards those coming up in the educational system by spreading racial hatred to the university students. Even O’Reilly, a student at Harvard while Gates was a professor, spoke of his reputation on campus for hypersensitivity and temperment.
He’s had opportunities most of any race did not. It’s admirable that he seized those opportunities and ran with them. It is defective to harbor resentment based on history books and not personal experience… especially in light of his prolific career and basically uneventful past.
And what’s this “perceived racial bigotry”?? Nothing “perceived” about it. He’s quite vocal about it, in case you haven’t noticed.
BTW, moose… don’t you think that Gates should be disciplined by the university, as the Boston cop was by the department? Or you’re gonna give him a pass for skin color?
I understand your position moose, but would that soldier be justified for shooting up a car after it backfires? Gates has probably seen and experienced a lot that I never will, but it still is not a license. Crowley did what he was supposed to and was punished for it. The old lady and Lucia Whalen did what they were supposed to, and were punished for it. Don’t you get it? We aren’t rewarding a good job here… these people are having to deal with assaults against their lives and character. I have only seen massive support for Crowley from all colors. You think any more people will want to take a chance like this? Why do you think the Romans lined the roads into Rome with the crucified? We too are lining ours.
This is not a ‘teachable’ moment. Teachable moments occur when we show our kids how to serve our community. When our kids witness us doing the right thing. When they /see/ us treat others as equals. The ‘teachable’ moment Obama and the liberal world refer to is the, “do as I say not as I do.” They reacted based on their presupposition on race and paid for it. Unfortunately for Crowley, all he did was reacted correctly to the situation. Its like the kid in class that can’t help but beat up other kids. So now everyone has to sit through lectures on why it is important to be nice. If anything you only arouse the beast of burden.
Now on to the real issue: the arresting officer did the right thing. You are basing logic and argument around bleeding heart sympathy. Or at least letting it guide truth and decision making. While your story is moving (truly, not just saying that sarcastically) there are dire consequences for this kind of reaction from a black professor and a white police officer that did nothing wrong. The fact we are even discussing this, means there is a disagreement about what happened with the arrest. Whether it was how it started or ended, something about the situation is not agreeable between us. I am saying the police officer did the right thing, followed procedure, Gates overreacted (justified to him or not), and the outcome should be color blind. Meaning if the arresting officer was black and the person being arrested was an old white guy.
What exactly do you disagree with? Plus, it is hardly worth mentioning that Obama should keep his uninformed mouth shut about this stuff. Is that disagreeable? What is the major malfunction? Yes, I get it.. black people were treated unjust. Not by me, not by my father, or my grandfather etc.. but I’m white, so I need to partake in the guilt? It was black tribes that sold many of the slaves that ended up coming to america. Shouldn’t they pay reparations? Maybe a little guilt? No, its reverse racism, and the left needs something to bleed for besides this country.
What’s all this stuff coming up about Gates and his childhood hardships? Other than his football injury (source of his limp), the guy blew thru Yale (poor deprived black one). No doubt affirmative action played a big role since he wrote on his Yale application:
Right… how many kids end up in Yale, despite good grades? Certainly my parents couldn’t afford the ivy league schools.
He’s led a charmed life, going thru adulthood well into the aftereffects of the Civil Rights Act. Looks like his biggest blow to his career was being denied tenure at Yale. Wow… so abused.
The man vacations at his summer home in Martha’s Vineyard. This is not a man who was beaten down by racism anymore than Obama was. He’s had opportunity, and he took advantage of that. Where, pray tell, is all this hatred supposedly coming from? Because it’s certainly not in the circumstance of his life.
Wordsmith: Exactly correct, that old gentleman perceived racism where it wasn’t even there. And no doubt he passed that story on and an.
America is the greatest country for many reasons, and one big one is that we fought a war to free the slaves, (States Rights). A wrong was righted, and the road was never going to be an easy one. Personally, I believe it could be another 50-100 years before all living memory of discrimination is gone and folks look back and think, wow, that sounds like a strange thing for people to be doing, strange that Blacks and White would be calling each other racists involving peripheral issues.
I worked as a Cartographer for a couple years, working with Indiana sections, plotting the deed descriptions at 400 scale on areal photos for each land parcel, so the counties could get the records in order (and hopefully, more property taxes in the bargain.)
I saw deeds from Presidential land grants on up to present, I cannot tell you how many deeds had covenants written in that were legal before 1964, preventing any person with Negro Blood to own or be conveyed that property. Those deeds still read that way today, unless there has been a new survey done to change the legal description. When I was young, and first got my license, I drove down to a town called Brownstown, in Jackson County, Indiana, and saw a sign at the city limits that read: “N*****, be out of town by sundown” Blacks when I was growing up knew to stay out of that town.
My point being that the old black gentleman didn’t need much convincing that something was said when in fact it wasn’t. He was already hurtin’ inside before I ever saw him.
A great man will rise up above all against him and America gives him the opportunity to succeed in all he does. Were that we were all great men and rise above every challenge. That day will come I believe, but it is still a ways off and there is more work to do, from both ends of the spectrum.
Liam Said: “I understand your position moose, but would that soldier be justified for shooting up a car after it backfires?”
Not in any way, and I did mention that Gates could have diffused the situation if he had chosen to do it. I just don’t see him as a defective person because of his actions unless I know a hell of alot more about him. I don’t have time or inclination to figure everyone and their situation out, so, I chose to not see it as the end of the world, give both sides a break but trying to understand their potential reference point in the matter, and move on. The cop didn’t like being bad mouthed about his Mother, and I don’t blame him a bit for that, and would have taken great offense myself.
Some on either side want to push their beliefs and agendas, and take extreem positions to promote their views. It is interesting to note that both sides of the issue feel racially biased against.
Just what would one expect to be the case in a Country that has done something no other country ever did, not just let slaves earn their freedom, but fight a war and grant that freedom, knowing the cost was, and still is today, so very high, and that a very large portion who lost the war still held the same views after the war as they did before? And only because it was doing what was the right thing to do? And knowing that to work through a social issue like this would be as monumental a social task as has been undertaken by any society in history. You can’t fault America in any way for that, and to me, these type of flareups are to be expected, and it is just a family squabble in the big scheme of things.
Mata Said: “BTW, moose… don’t you think that Gates should be disciplined by the university, as the Boston cop was by the department? Or you’re gonna give him a pass for skin color?”
If the two guys involved in the incident can work their differences out, why would I be hoping for Gates to be diciplined? And what has anyone’s skin color got to do with it?
@MataHarley
I’ve read the report and Whalen’s statement above doesn’t shine a light on the below…
According to Whalen’s lawyer
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/US/07/27/gates.arrest/index.html
So either Whalen or Crowley has got it wrong. Thoughts?
@mooseburger: So Mossy, you don’t believe that Gates, nor presumably Obama, should be held accountable for their transparent racebaiting?
@mooseburger:
My point from that, is that there are moments like these today, where no racism is present (such as Crowley on Gates), yet is perceived by those carrying racial chips on their shoulder.
So long as the Farrakhans, Sharptons, Wrights, and yes, Gates Jr. (all benefiting financially, I might add, by promoting racial discord), keep lecturing about how racism is alive and well in the U.S., racism will be kept alive and well. They will keep people living in paranoia and give them scapegoats for anything in their lives that can be deemed unfortunate.
And that is terrible. But 40-50 years ago. I believe we’d be even further along if the race profiteers weren’t out there, still fighting “the good fight” like it’s still 1960.
And I feel bad for the man and wish at the time, you did explain to him what was actually said, and that others weren’t there laughing at him (based on racist insensitivity). But that was 40 years ago. Today? I think mostly what perpetuates racism are the race agitators like Wright, Farrakhan, and Sharpton. Obama contributed to it when he made a presidential comment, giving credence and credibility to the charge of racism and “rogue cop” on the part of Gates Jr. It leads to this.
If the cycle of racism is to end, then the agitators should be first in line to jump off that bandwagon. They aren’t exposing racism in America, but creating it.
And did you just call “Gates Jr.” a “great man”? Maybe you were speaking in general. As Mata pointed out, Gates Jr. has led a pretty “privileged life” in terms of opportunity. Isn’t he like third generation, anyway, in regards to college opportunities? I can’t remember where I might have come across that…
Could definitely be wrong about it, and confused with someone else, right now.
Yes, but in this specific instance, which side incurs all the blame? Deflecting it to “centuries of oppression” as a contributing factor, doesn’t really fly with me.
Those “large portion who lost the war” are dead and buried. I don’t know anyone alive today who thinks we should have slave plantations.
Maybe I’m not getting your point on this.
@Wordsmith:
Sounds like Moose believes that the Civil War was fought over slavery.
Mooseburger,
I grew up outside of Gary Indiana, and as a cracker, I knew driving through there near dusk or night was suicide. So what’s your point?
And stop with the fading memories, will ya? No one on this thread believes your convenient stories.
@Tom in Ca: He can’t help it. It’s all that “emotional baggage” coming back to him.
gaffa, INRE the police report and Crowley’s lawyer, and what you feel are discrepancies. I suggest you are reading something that is not there.
Whalen, when asked by the 911 dispatcher as to what the suspects looked like (gotta have an idea, ya know)… ala “Are they white, black or Hispanic?”… said she thought, but wasn’t sure that one was Hispanic.
The police report says, verbatim:
I derive several things from this…. it was not Crowley who put a name to the female on the spot as he specificially says “later identified as Lucia Whalen”. This can be a matter of Crowley speaking with someone on the sidewalk, and the 911 dispatcher putting the caller’s name to the person with whom Crowley was speaking. The report is filed close to immediately to capture the details while fresh in the memory.
I also suggest that, were it truly such a hullaballoo, the taped conversations between Crowley asking for the caller to be available at the residence is easily verifiable.
And the last cincher for me is that the 911 call was made on 7/16 at 12:44pm. Crowley’s report was filed at 1:21pm, 36 minutes later. This was way in advance of the media ta’doo, and Obama’s insertion of race 6 days later. Understand this… a standard report filed 36 minutes after the incident CANNOT be a “cover your butt” moment when the sheeeeet didn’t fly in the media until almost a week later.
As far as the conversation between Whalen and Crowley with which you take issue, I would be inclined to take Crowley’s report at his word for many reasons, not the least being the report filed well in advance of the media flap: first, he is very detailed in where she is standing, his attention drawn to the voice, the wireless in her hand, etc. The backpacks were actually luggage since Gates was returning from a trip, and the second individual was his driver. They are trained to observe little details and time passage, unlike civilians.
For Whalen, she’s not the professional a law officer is, accustomed to noting details (as Crowley put in his report). Also remember that there was another female who drew her attention to the action, and she didn’t start observing until both men were already in the house (via the 911 call). Considering that Crowley was also not the only officer present at the site after time, she may also not have locked a face with a name into her mind.
Lastly, the woman is genuinely freaked from the threats and assaults she has received since her call as a friendly neighbor to protect that a’hole’s property. Her attorney is making these assertations a week and a half after that filed police report, and post media flap.
With those facts and time stamp observations in mind, it comes down to this…. When making the call, it was an incident “in progress” and there is hesitancy in her voice, wondering if she’s jumping the gun on reporting it, and she states both men are inside the home. After the call, she had time to stand and observe what happened with both men in the house because they would have come out to get the luggage off the porch and the driver would leave prior to Crowley’s arrival. So she knew *more* information about the two men after making the call because she had the opportunity to see both men.
Would she be inclined to backtrack on her post 911 call conversations with a man in blue when it has become so racially charged (and she’s been demeaned and threatened?), thanks to Gates and Obama’s piling on? Absolutely. Especially in a he said/she said scenario where she’s got a 50/50 chance in the public’s eye of being correct. Is it possible Crowley, who doesn’t appear to be the one who ID’ed Whalen, was speaking with the other woman? Perhaps. I have little doubt that he identified himself, but I can also see where the adrenaline of the moment for a civilian can cloud her memory of specifics.
So in this he said/she said situation, I’ll take Crowley’s side because of his judgment and observations less likely to be affected by stress in the moment than Whalen’s, and his documentation of that incident filed as standard procedure and while not a nation wide media story.
Nor do I think this is a big point. Crowley didn’t treat this as a racial issue in his actions, so his part in the police report is strictly documentation of an event, . Identifying suspects via race and physical characteristics is only logical. The only one now with the motive to CYA is Whalen, because of the public calling her a racist.
@ Old Trooper
Preach it Old Trooper. And when the ancestors of slaves finally get their reparations, I want my reparations from the ancestors of the Buffalo Soldiers. 😉 They massacred a great number of native Americans.
@mooseburger: You’re funny Moose. You take a post about the woman that was totally demonized by the liberal media, specifically HuffPo, and turn it into a post about some bigot cop on the Boston Police that sent an ignorant email and was suspended and will be fired. A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position. To “attack a straw man” is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the “straw man”), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.
I’ll take your strawman bait. The cop that sent that email is a racist and will be fired. I’m happy he’s going. He does not represent the vast majority of police officers. Gates is a racist. The liberal media is a bunch of race baiting a$$ clowns for drawing a conclusion about Whalen being what? A racist. I don’t hear them apologizing. I don’t hear you apologizing for them. Funny how that works.
So let me see if I understand this correctly. You push and push for condemnation of an angry cop who calls Gates a “jungle monkey” after he hurls accusations and racial slurs against *all* law enforcement, but you’re cool with no discipline for Gates who verbally abused Crowley and law enforcment en toto with racial slurs?
“what’s skin color” got to do with it? Both used racial slurs. Only one you want the public to condemn and celebrate his discipline, and the other you justify his “feelings”.
Yep… giving him a pass on his skin color. It’s either unacceptable for all, or it’s not. Simple as that. I am not surprised your dual standards remain solidly intact.
@MataHarley: You have to give Mossy a break. He’s still traumatized by that racial incident outside the Dairy Queen in 1967. I guess he won’t be calling anyone a “major leaguer” from now on.
WordSmith said: “So long as the Farrakhans, Sharptons, Wrights, and yes, Gates Jr. (all benefiting financially, I might add, by promoting racial discord), keep lecturing about how racism is alive and well in the U.S., racism will be kept alive and well. They will keep people living in paranoia and give them scapegoats for anything in their lives that can be deemed unfortunate.”
“Those “large portion who lost the war” are dead and buried. I don’t know anyone alive today who thinks we should have slave plantations.”
Maybe I’m not getting your point on this.
True enough, and that goes as well for the Limbaugh’s and Coulter’s who make good money magnifying any slight the other direction. The folks you mentioned and the one’s I just mentioned have no interests and put zero effort into finding common ground or offering resolutions, they only seek to magnify conflict and rake in the dough.
And no, I wasn’t calling Gates a great man and was speaking in general.
Slave plantations, no, but the institutional implementation of second class citizenship, that hung on for another hundred years or so. My point is things are still raw, the wounds are not all the way healed yet, and the sensitivity when that wound is touched, from both sides of the fence, is evidence of that even today.
Aye said: “Sounds like Moose believes that the Civil War was fought over slavery.”
My understanding is the issue was really States rights
Mata said: “You push and push for condemnation of an angry cop who calls Gates a “jungle monkey” after he hurls accusations and racial slurs against *all* law enforcement, but you’re cool with no discipline for Gates who verbally abused Crowley and law enforcment en toto with racial slurs?”
No, I asked why Gates was (in your words) a defective Human and the Boston Cop I posted the link about got not a peep of condemnation from you until, yes, you were pushed on that issue.
As for the cop who made the racist emails, that is a different event, and I would bet that every case that officer testified about in court involving Black people who were convicted based on his testimony will be challenged by every Defense Atty who is worth his salts. The implications for a Police Officer who has the ability to implement his racism onto the public and potentially imprison people goes way beyond the damage an average citizen is able to accomplish. I don’t see that as a double standard, just the way it is.
Which leads me to Aqua, who said: “You take a post about the woman that was totally demonized by the liberal media, specifically HuffPo, and turn it into a post about some bigot cop on the Boston Police that sent an ignorant email and was suspended and will be fired. A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position.”
You have a point that my first response to the post did not directly relate to the Lady who called in the report and the poor treatment she received. It was just posting an example of the the fact that Gates mindset, although flawed, has a basis in the fact that the hatred he perceived in his mind (if real or not in this instance) and over reacted to has existed, and still exists today, and is part of the experience he has had in his life that gave him that bad attitude he has. I don’t believe that I have said one bad word about the officer who arrested him, and in fact, have stated that Gates could have handled the situation in a much better way.
Mike said:”I guess he won’t be calling anyone a “major leaguer” from now on.”
Lol, I will be sure to use good pronounciation anyway….
@mooseburger: Just what I would expect from a “Major Leaguer” Mossy Played the Moral Equivalence Card (a favorite of racebaiters when backed into a corner) in an attempt to justify the racebaiting industry that keeps blacks angry and on the plantation. “the Limbaugh’s and Coulter’s who make good money magnifying any slight the other direction. “
If racism did not exist the “Limbaugh’s and Coulter’s” would have just as many fans as their careers do not depend on the racebaiting industry for support. Try reading Coulter’s columns or listening to Rush before you paint them with the same brush as Sharpton, Jackson or Gates.
Without the spectre of racism, which those men, Sharpton, Jackson and Gates fan, what would they do for a living?
It’s clear Mossy cannot defend the overt use of racism by these men. So why push the phony moral equivalence?
Mike:
What I said was that ALL the folks mentioned work the angle of reaction and division, never seeming to see or offering any middle ground. To both sides it is literally Black and White. Coulter and Limbaugh are no different than Sharpton when it comes to seeing enemies all around, and pointing out injustices and playing that angle for everything they can get. They all depend on having enemies for their paychecks.
I have made no attempt to defend anyone’s racism, nor would I want to. People that seek division and exploit it are just that way. Sharpton has folks who like him and agree with him, as does Rush. Two ends of the spectrum, paychecks in the bank, and never the twain shall meet. Nor would they want to, because they play as much to what their fan base expects as they do what they probably really believe. The race baiting industry has two polarities, and I wouldn’t care to defend either of them, but I don’t have a problem trying to figure out how they came to be and why they are still a strong force in our society.
@mooseburger: Another sorry dose of moral equivalence Mossy? That’s two in a row.
I guess you ran out of ammunition a long time ago.
We all know that Rush and Coulter would be fine if they never mentioned race again. The same cannot be said for Sharpton, Gates and Jackson.
No equivalence here AT ALL!
moose, the Boston cop is not part of the main event. He is only one of, no doubt, a multitude of byproduct events that you inserted from “left” field s a straw man (as Aqua pointed out) in this race battle that Gates/Obama decided to wage. Why would I bother veering off in that direction you decided to take off topic?
I don’t care about that Boston cop. He is just one more defective bigoted human inhabiting the planet who, if not for this incident, would never have have an iota of press with his heated response. I do not have the time, nor patience, to “condemn” them all merely to appease you, and prove that when I say… racist tirades are unacceptable for EVERYONE, or else they are acceptable from EVERYONE. Gates, and no individual of any race, gets no pass on this shit from me.
Now I demand you condemn Gates, since you did the same from me INRE the Boston cop. No dual standards available for you from me.
No shit, Sherlock… different event, which is why I’ve been ignoring it for your demand… “do I have do condemn everyone individually” mentality. But, as Aqua said, you brought it up as a straw man. Both he and I have acknowledged this cop’s flawed characteristics.
I’m still waiting for yours INRE Gates.
However I take major issue with your second sentence of the comment, beginning with “The impications for a police officer who has the ability to implement his racism…. Apparently, you still believe Crowley is a “racist”.
So I suggest you start putting your money when your mouth is, since I already went thru the timeline for Gaffa in comment #36. Frankly, I see no “racism” in Crowley’s report and actions. On the other hand, I see plenty in Gates’ instinctive response…. long int’l flight or not. It’s almost as good as sodium P.
I see only desperate self-defense to back track in Whalen’s attorney responses a week and a half AFTER the damn police report has been filed because she’s been assaulted by the Alinsky/Obama “community organizer” machine… of which you (whether you know it or not) have become a working cog.
Now let’s talk about the damage an “average citizen” is able to accomplish against injustice, moose. I said on this thread, or another (they all blend together), that I hope that Gates sues, and that Crowley responds, countersues for damages and walks away with all Gates’ homes in Cambridge and Martha’s Vineyard (minimally) and breaks the a’hole. I assure you, there is AMPLE recourse for a citizen under our system for injustice. And if you haven’t learned that yet, you need to hit the books on the US Constitution as the Founders/Framers laid out… and the not Constitution Obama tells you exists. I guarantee you, as of this moment it still operates on the former, and not the latter. The recourse is real, and potentially profitable in our trial lawyer society.
Mata Said: “However I take major issue with your second sentence of the comment, beginning with “The impications for a polic officer who has the ability to implement his racism…. Apparently, you still believe Crowley is a “racist”. ”
I never once contended that Crowley was a racist, and in fact asserted that I would be majorly offended too if someone insulted my Mom, as well as that Gates could have diffused the situation. So you can keep your straw man argument unless you can show where I have in fact contended Crowley is Racist.
I was talking about the Boston Officer who wrote the racist email in regards to how his court cases could be impacted by defense atty’s.
Mata Said: “Now I demand you condemn Gates, since you did the same from me INRE the Boston cop. No dual standards available for you from me.”
Mata said: “You push and push for condemnation of an angry cop who calls Gates a “jungle monkey” after he hurls accusations and racial slurs against *all* law enforcement, but you’re cool with no discipline for Gates who verbally abused Crowley and law enforcment en toto with racial slurs?”
Mata, First you contended that I demanded something from you, which I didn’t, now you are demanding something from me. I have neither pushed you for condemnation, nor demanded it. I was simply puzzled by your eagerness to deem Gates a “defective Human” and your silence on the officer who sent the racist email and asked a question about that. It struck me as a bit odd that you would be so quick to see one side as a defective human, and silent on the racist email about Gates. So, I was curious if your silence was implying consent, (which I would have a hard time thinking of you that way after our conversations up to this point) or If you had said it was a side issue from the start, and you weren’t going to address it and stay on topic of the posting here, that would be another thing as well. But you slowly started tossing out other forms of humanity who you define as defective, and they keep coming. I never agreed or disagreed on who was defective or not, I simply said that I would need to know much more about the guy (Gates) before I would call him defective.
The whole point of what I have posted so far is to NOT be condemning people just because I think they are wrong or I disagree with them. Just try to figure out who stands where, and perhaps why they do.
Well geez, moose… let us know when you catch up with the rest of us, and ultimately make a decision as to “who stands where”…. I’m sure we’re all waiting with baited breath. Tho most of us have already caught the obvious and at-your-fingertips available data of Gates historic past and his teaching reputation vs Crowley’s law enforcement records.
In the meantime, I can only say to you… are you so PC drugged you can’t see the obvious? Gates was a bigot in his actions. Crowley was pure law enforcement officer with no color involved.
You pull in the Boston cop and say
…. then have the damn chutzpah to say
I am not senile, moose. I read, I consider and ponder, and I pocket for future use. And you make it very easy to recall every bit your slow steps to straw and sidestepping BS when all I have to do is “cut/paste” to boot.
You did “demand” via your words… and I quote: “no condemnation of this guy… snip….right, Mata?”
Now I bloody well demand of you your condemnation of Gates as a bigot, or leave me the hell alone with this BS. I will not play this distraction/straw man game with you. The point is Gates or Crowley is the racist based on records…. sans your PC excuses.
Mata: I made an observation about your statement that Gates is a “defective human” in the form of a question. You were being challenged to defend your statement, and I don’t know how that equates to being a demand.
This is a great example of you setting up a straw man below:
Mata said: “Apparently, you still believe Crowley is a “racist”. ”
I reponded: “I never once contended that Crowley was a racist, and in fact asserted that I would be majorly offended too if someone insulted my Mom, as well as that Gates could have diffused the situation. So you can keep your straw man argument unless you can show where I have in fact contended Crowley is Racist.”
You haven’t shown where I in any way intimated that Crowley is racist, or acted in a racist way during the arrest. That is because you can’t.
Mata said: “Now I bloody well demand of you your condemnation of Gates as a bigot, or leave me the hell alone with this BS. I will not play this distraction/straw man game with you. The point is Gates or Crowley is the racist based on records…. sans your PC excuses.”
I suppose you can bloody well demand anything you like, but that doesn’t mean that is the way I see the issue just because that’s how you see it. We have only responded to each other’s comments , and it is called a discussion, and hopefully it can be a civil one.
My question to Obama, Gates and Biden is: Did Crowley teach them anything?
Did those three perhaps learn that there are times when you should just S-T-F-U?
@ mooseburger
Actually it would be more of an arguement by digression. But even that is stretching it. She pretty much stayed with the argument. You need to bone up on your rhetorical fallacies.
Well, Gates did show some class with an apology:
http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2009/07/gates_sends_flo.html
@Cary: How do you get from an “expression of gratitude” to an apology?
And isn’t it a bit patronizing, sexist even, to send a woman he doesn’t know a bunch of flowers?
What would he say if someone sent him a watermelon or a bucket of fried chicken?
@Mike’s America:
Well, it wasn’t said in the article, but I thought it was clearly implied that it was accepted as an apology. Perhaps I’m wrong.
And no, I personally don’t think it’s sexist or insulting to buy a woman flowers. I’ve done so for female coworkers I’ve fought with on occasion myself. It ALWAYS went over well.
Although now I prefer to propagate some of my houseplants and give them as gifts to both genders.
,
And frankly, as a person of Irish descent, while it may be stereotypical, I would LOVE a six pack of beer or a bottle of whiskey as a gift! 🙂
@Cary: Your implied apology is wishful thinking. Gates wouldn’t apologize to “whitey.”