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FedUp
14 years ago
One giant step for mankind!!! This discrimination crap has outlived it’s usefulness now that we have an oreo in the white house!
Aye Chihuahua: Hahahahaha – I was going to go there as well 😉
I wonder what is going through her mind right now. She can’t say it was the “old white guys!”
If she does, let me see her explain Samuel Alito, Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas.
Her decision to back that load of crap was nothing but racism itself. To NOT promote someone because “African Americans” did not score well enough is just wrong. I can understand it if the test were biased but that was not the point of the whole thing.
Glad to see the decision. I am tired of seeing people bowing to fear of litigation because a minority didn’t score well because they didn’t put forth the effort to study, etc to get a score that would assure them of promotion.
Noting says RACISM like throwing out test results and promoting on skin color alone!
I got a REAL problem with the 4 that didn’t rule with the 5 …
Yeah a real problem.
Anyone else?
George
14 years ago
Ginsburg should be put out to pasture. She provided offending reasons for her dissent:
1) Ginsburg noted that the court’s decision would prevent New Haven from achieving a diverse workforce.
Do you want the best people for the job or do you want a bunch of knuckleheads who can’t pass the test in your “diverse workforce”?
2) In a dissent, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said that the majority ignored evidence of flaws in the New Haven tests.
Uh huh. Minorities are always the victims in her world. The test was made by “the man” to hold down minorities. Don’t trust whitey. Her statement is racist in that it suggests that minorities are not able to pass the same tests that whites do.
3) Speaking for the dissenters, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said the firefighters would “attract the court’s empathy. But they had no vested right to a promotion, and no person has received a promotion in preference to them.”
It was a promotional exam. It was a test to determine who was qualified for a promotion. Why would they administer the test if they weren’t going to promote anybody? And how can you throw out the results based solely on race?
From my POV, LaRaza equates to the KKK. Does that mean that Ms. Sotomayor, a member of LaRaza, is the female version of Stom Thurmon? Heck no, Senator Thurmon would never have been considered for SOTUS…and neither should she. She’s as racist as they come.
The only downside to Ginzberg leaving the court is 0 will find someone even worse. Maybe she’ll delay until the next election. We can only hope. Oh, and vote. We really have to do it in 2010 to put the brakes on this guy.
OK, can someone please explain to me how a test is slanted against a race (or races) in favor of another race?
Either the test is about the job or it isn’t. If it is about the job, then how can it be slanted FOR one race versus another?
I have heard the same thing about some tests I took in high school and their claim was that the vocabulary used in the words were TOO ADVANCED for blacks. Ummm, IMHO, the vocabulary was WAY beneath me. Extrapolate from that what you will.
In my opinion, if you had reached THAT grade, you should have been able to read the test without issue. If you couldn’t then maybe JUST MAYBE you should have been held back UNTIL YOU COULD READ IT and NOT JUST PASSED.
George:Do you want the best people for the job or do you want a bunch of knuckleheads who can’t pass the test in your “diverse workforce”?
I hear ya! I don’t want some knuckle heads showing up with beer and marshmallows singing Disco Inferno ..”Burn baby Burn” – I want that fire out ASAP!”
If Jose and Jamal can’t get past the proficiency test, then why SHOULD THEY be promoted?
Lets forget the “reverse” term … it is plain and simply RACISM.
Its clear to me that when it is convenient for THEIR CAUSE, liberals want to throw out everything else (Facts, test scores, etc) and make decisions based on ‘what feels good’
-If they feel that way, then maybe they should let the knuckleheads who couldn’t pass the test perform their next surgery. I mean … we wouldn’t want to hurt their feelings right? They should be allowed to do that surgery so we have a diverse group of (unqualified) surgeons running around – BAH! forget that litigation stuff and that dead patient. At least Dr. Jamal feels good that he is a (unqualified) doctor!
*And yes I am using stereotypical names to illustrate my point. I guess that makes me a racists just like that wise old latina and Ginsburg.
What’s shocking is that 4 of these morons actually think it’s OK to discriminate against whites as long as it promotes any other race. That’s a disgrace!
This isn’t intended to be a conservative vs liberal thing, but to ask a simple question:
Is the best way to choose a Fire Lieutenant or Captain to administer a written test?
My gripe with all of these reverse discrimination controversies (promotions, school admissions, etc.) is that they are all based on written tests.
Let’s say we choose our Presidents on the basis of written tests. Al Gore’s SATs scores were much higher than those of George W Bush. There is little reason to expect that Bush would have scored substantially higher on a written test of knowledge of government or virtually any other type of test that would have Gore.
Who would score higher on almost any type of written test relevant to governance? Obama or Palin? Be honest with yourselves, here.
Obama won over McCain by more than 60 – 40 among people with post-graduate degrees, who, presumably, would score higher on most tests than the voters with “some college, short of a degree” who favored McCain. Did those university PhDs show better judgment than the Junior College attendees?
Why is is that Google, Cisco, HP, etc. don’t promote to supervisory positions, based on scores on written tests?
I think that the big problem is not with reverse discrimination; the big problem is with the Civil Service system itself.
Within a large metropolitan sheriff’s department, are the best supervisors the officers who score highest on the written civil service tests? A question directed at no one in particular. I’m just curious.
It’s an interesting concept to think that written tests are an optional skill for firefighters hierarchy. One would think that the Lt. or Capt would need to file reports, stay abreast of latest innovations and methods of controlling different source fires, etc.
While a written test should not be the sole consideration, certainly it’s results should be a prime consideration when selecting a more qualified individual to lead.
Your comparison for POTUS via SATs is almost laughable, Larry. I had no idea that SATs were the only measure of intelligence and education. Grad averages and scholastic performance, level of higher education and choice of majors don’t factor in as also worthy? Would one with a business major and business experience be more desireable than a philosophy or psyche major in the executive branch? After all the job does entail tasks more suited to a business owner.
But then the level of education is also not the only criteria. Abraham Lincoln, who held only a year of formal education at best, made the cut.
I would think that all the New Haven applicants demonstrated the necessary skills physically. But since not all could be promoted, there needed to be additional criteria to consider as well. That’s just the way it goes… some win, some lose. So if all are equal in qualifications… which is unlikely since individuals are different… the selection must be made by a racial quota?
What’s most offensive is to automatically assume that because an African American candidate did not perform well, that the test is not “dumbed down” enough to be fair. Equally offensive is a city that throws out such results merely for litigation prevention.
Your comparison for POTUS via SATs is almost laughable, Larry. I had no idea that SATs were the only measure of intelligence and education. Grad averages and scholastic performance, level of higher education and choice of majors don’t factor in as also worthy? Would one with a business major and business experience be more desireable than a philosophy or psyche major in the executive branch? After all the job does entail tasks more suited to a business owner.
Thanks for arguing my point so skillfully. In the real world, no one administers written tests as a criterion for promotion to the highest supervisory positions.
Since when would a written test be a valid indicator of “filing reports?” I’m smart, but I’m unorganized. My filing cabinet is a horror. Thank goodness for Spotlight. Given that Captain and Lieutenant positions are not filled by people walking in off the street, I would think that actual, on the job performance — and observations made of interpersonal relations — would be, by far, the best metrics. That’s the way it’s done in the private sector. Why not in the public sector? I’d really like to hear how it works in the sheriff’s department. Are the best supervisors the ones with the highest scores on written tests?
I can’t speak for any other Department other then my own but written tests are not the only way supervisors are chosen on mine. Written, oral, and job performance are all part of the equation…as is the promotion to Sgt. All this is true unless your a female on our Department due to the Susan Bouman fiasco. A lawsuit badly handled by our department eons ago is costing us dearly now. Won’t comment further on this tho seeing as my comments can easily be found via google.
Larry W: Since when would a written test be a valid indicator of “filing reports?” I’m smart, but I’m unorganized. My filing cabinet is a horror.
Surely you do not interpret that comment as a mere “filing” job. Cogent reports for evaluation and records are integral to any emergency incident.
Thanks for arguing my point so skillfully. In the real world, no one administers written tests as a criterion for promotion to the highest supervisory positions.
Horse manure. And you are moving to extremes. I did not argue “your” point, since you state… as you did above.. that “no one” administers written test for promotion. Again, horse manure.
What I said, and you apparently refused to absorb, is that written tests are not the sole criteria, but they are a valuable criteria when taken with other qualifications to consider. That is *not* “your point”.
Given that Captain and Lieutenant positions are not filled by people walking in off the street, I would think that actual, on the job performance — and observations made of interpersonal relations — would be, by far, the best metrics. That’s the way it’s done in the private sector. Why not in the public sector?
And here to say written tests have no value. Dare I say it again? Horse manure. As Curt has pointed out, written tests play a part.. but not the sole part… in his department. In my job, advancement to a higher level depends upon a written test, and I do not work in government. Anyone attempting a license in a business… including your medical profession… requires written test of acceptable or above level. Or perhaps medical practicioners should be allowed to do business based on their “on the job performance”, “observations” and “interpersonal relations”?
There’s a difference between entry level tests and tests for promotion to high supervisory positions. All of the fireman presumably passed the entry level test. But I read that 60% of the criteria for promotion to captain or Lieutenant was the written test. Yes, I took a written test, several decades ago, to meet the entry level requirements for licensure/certification. But, since then, it has all been on the job performance. I don’t know of any college, university, medical practice, law firm, or business which uses written tests as a basis for choosing high level supervisors. I’m not challenging you, Mata, but I think that any business which would base 60% of the selection of the highest level supervisors on a written test is probably a business which will not compete with Apple, Google, Genentech, Sprint, or virtually any large corporation or small business in the private sector. The major criteria have to be job performance and leadership skills, which can’t be assessed in any written test.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach
By the way, Curt didn’t really answer my question. I didn’t ask what criteria were used for promotion; I was asking for the correlation between scores on the written test and actual leadership effectiveness. Are the best leaders and supervisors the ones who score highest on the tests?
OMG, Larry… you have no continuing education requirements to keep your license? Or are you not a licensed anything?
I’ve got friends that work at supermarkets. They have to take tests for promotions. Our military cannot advance in rank without written tests, despite their stellar on the job performance. Police, firemen, many places require this. You speak like written tests as part of promotion are alien.
Are the best leaders and supervisors the ones who score highest on the tests?
Again you are living in the extremes. THe best leaders and supervisors have many qualities, including among them a reflection of their comprehension and knowledge via written tests. You seem to think this has absolutely no importance whatsoever. Baffling.
We need 25 hours of continuing medical education per year to remain licensed. Basically, glorified classroom work (often dinner lectures, with dinner paid for by pharmaceutical companies). But no one and and I mean no one gets promoted or a pay raise or anything else based on which of these courses one takes. And there are no “examinations,” per se. Maybe 5 open book questions to provide some assurance that person in question actually attended. And the odd CPR recertification or whatever. In some specialties, there are periodic recertification exams — however, these are simply to retain one’s “certs” and in no way determine who gets promoted to Department Chair or who makes partner or anything like that.
You really think that a written test should be 60% of who gets chosen as a Fire Captain? Or a Department Chair? Or as Vice President for Finance? Or as head of the Department of Human Resources? It’s totally absurd. Anyone who runs a business that way won’t have a competitive business.
One giant step for mankind!!! This discrimination crap has outlived it’s usefulness now that we have an oreo in the white house!
This decision demonstrates the need for a wise Latina.
Aye Chihuahua: Hahahahaha – I was going to go there as well 😉
I wonder what is going through her mind right now. She can’t say it was the “old white guys!”
If she does, let me see her explain Samuel Alito, Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas.
Her decision to back that load of crap was nothing but racism itself. To NOT promote someone because “African Americans” did not score well enough is just wrong. I can understand it if the test were biased but that was not the point of the whole thing.
Glad to see the decision. I am tired of seeing people bowing to fear of litigation because a minority didn’t score well because they didn’t put forth the effort to study, etc to get a score that would assure them of promotion.
Noting says RACISM like throwing out test results and promoting on skin color alone!
I got a REAL problem with the 4 that didn’t rule with the 5 …
Yeah a real problem.
Anyone else?
Ginsburg should be put out to pasture. She provided offending reasons for her dissent:
1) Ginsburg noted that the court’s decision would prevent New Haven from achieving a diverse workforce.
Do you want the best people for the job or do you want a bunch of knuckleheads who can’t pass the test in your “diverse workforce”?
2) In a dissent, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said that the majority ignored evidence of flaws in the New Haven tests.
Uh huh. Minorities are always the victims in her world. The test was made by “the man” to hold down minorities. Don’t trust whitey. Her statement is racist in that it suggests that minorities are not able to pass the same tests that whites do.
3) Speaking for the dissenters, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said the firefighters would “attract the court’s empathy. But they had no vested right to a promotion, and no person has received a promotion in preference to them.”
It was a promotional exam. It was a test to determine who was qualified for a promotion. Why would they administer the test if they weren’t going to promote anybody? And how can you throw out the results based solely on race?
From my POV, LaRaza equates to the KKK. Does that mean that Ms. Sotomayor, a member of LaRaza, is the female version of Stom Thurmon? Heck no, Senator Thurmon would never have been considered for SOTUS…and neither should she. She’s as racist as they come.
The only downside to Ginzberg leaving the court is 0 will find someone even worse. Maybe she’ll delay until the next election. We can only hope. Oh, and vote. We really have to do it in 2010 to put the brakes on this guy.
OK, can someone please explain to me how a test is slanted against a race (or races) in favor of another race?
Either the test is about the job or it isn’t. If it is about the job, then how can it be slanted FOR one race versus another?
I have heard the same thing about some tests I took in high school and their claim was that the vocabulary used in the words were TOO ADVANCED for blacks. Ummm, IMHO, the vocabulary was WAY beneath me. Extrapolate from that what you will.
In my opinion, if you had reached THAT grade, you should have been able to read the test without issue. If you couldn’t then maybe JUST MAYBE you should have been held back UNTIL YOU COULD READ IT and NOT JUST PASSED.
I hear ya! I don’t want some knuckle heads showing up with beer and marshmallows singing Disco Inferno ..”Burn baby Burn” – I want that fire out ASAP!”
If Jose and Jamal can’t get past the proficiency test, then why SHOULD THEY be promoted?
Lets forget the “reverse” term … it is plain and simply RACISM.
Its clear to me that when it is convenient for THEIR CAUSE, liberals want to throw out everything else (Facts, test scores, etc) and make decisions based on ‘what feels good’
-If they feel that way, then maybe they should let the knuckleheads who couldn’t pass the test perform their next surgery. I mean … we wouldn’t want to hurt their feelings right? They should be allowed to do that surgery so we have a diverse group of (unqualified) surgeons running around – BAH! forget that litigation stuff and that dead patient. At least Dr. Jamal feels good that he is a (unqualified) doctor!
*And yes I am using stereotypical names to illustrate my point. I guess that makes me a racists just like that wise old latina and Ginsburg.
What’s shocking is that 4 of these morons actually think it’s OK to discriminate against whites as long as it promotes any other race. That’s a disgrace!
This isn’t intended to be a conservative vs liberal thing, but to ask a simple question:
Is the best way to choose a Fire Lieutenant or Captain to administer a written test?
My gripe with all of these reverse discrimination controversies (promotions, school admissions, etc.) is that they are all based on written tests.
Let’s say we choose our Presidents on the basis of written tests. Al Gore’s SATs scores were much higher than those of George W Bush. There is little reason to expect that Bush would have scored substantially higher on a written test of knowledge of government or virtually any other type of test that would have Gore.
Who would score higher on almost any type of written test relevant to governance? Obama or Palin? Be honest with yourselves, here.
Obama won over McCain by more than 60 – 40 among people with post-graduate degrees, who, presumably, would score higher on most tests than the voters with “some college, short of a degree” who favored McCain. Did those university PhDs show better judgment than the Junior College attendees?
Why is is that Google, Cisco, HP, etc. don’t promote to supervisory positions, based on scores on written tests?
I think that the big problem is not with reverse discrimination; the big problem is with the Civil Service system itself.
Within a large metropolitan sheriff’s department, are the best supervisors the officers who score highest on the written civil service tests? A question directed at no one in particular. I’m just curious.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
It’s an interesting concept to think that written tests are an optional skill for firefighters hierarchy. One would think that the Lt. or Capt would need to file reports, stay abreast of latest innovations and methods of controlling different source fires, etc.
While a written test should not be the sole consideration, certainly it’s results should be a prime consideration when selecting a more qualified individual to lead.
Your comparison for POTUS via SATs is almost laughable, Larry. I had no idea that SATs were the only measure of intelligence and education. Grad averages and scholastic performance, level of higher education and choice of majors don’t factor in as also worthy? Would one with a business major and business experience be more desireable than a philosophy or psyche major in the executive branch? After all the job does entail tasks more suited to a business owner.
But then the level of education is also not the only criteria. Abraham Lincoln, who held only a year of formal education at best, made the cut.
I would think that all the New Haven applicants demonstrated the necessary skills physically. But since not all could be promoted, there needed to be additional criteria to consider as well. That’s just the way it goes… some win, some lose. So if all are equal in qualifications… which is unlikely since individuals are different… the selection must be made by a racial quota?
What’s most offensive is to automatically assume that because an African American candidate did not perform well, that the test is not “dumbed down” enough to be fair. Equally offensive is a city that throws out such results merely for litigation prevention.
Thanks for arguing my point so skillfully. In the real world, no one administers written tests as a criterion for promotion to the highest supervisory positions.
Since when would a written test be a valid indicator of “filing reports?” I’m smart, but I’m unorganized. My filing cabinet is a horror. Thank goodness for Spotlight. Given that Captain and Lieutenant positions are not filled by people walking in off the street, I would think that actual, on the job performance — and observations made of interpersonal relations — would be, by far, the best metrics. That’s the way it’s done in the private sector. Why not in the public sector? I’d really like to hear how it works in the sheriff’s department. Are the best supervisors the ones with the highest scores on written tests?
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
I can’t speak for any other Department other then my own but written tests are not the only way supervisors are chosen on mine. Written, oral, and job performance are all part of the equation…as is the promotion to Sgt. All this is true unless your a female on our Department due to the Susan Bouman fiasco. A lawsuit badly handled by our department eons ago is costing us dearly now. Won’t comment further on this tho seeing as my comments can easily be found via google.
Surely you do not interpret that comment as a mere “filing” job. Cogent reports for evaluation and records are integral to any emergency incident.
Horse manure. And you are moving to extremes. I did not argue “your” point, since you state… as you did above.. that “no one” administers written test for promotion. Again, horse manure.
What I said, and you apparently refused to absorb, is that written tests are not the sole criteria, but they are a valuable criteria when taken with other qualifications to consider. That is *not* “your point”.
And here to say written tests have no value. Dare I say it again? Horse manure. As Curt has pointed out, written tests play a part.. but not the sole part… in his department. In my job, advancement to a higher level depends upon a written test, and I do not work in government. Anyone attempting a license in a business… including your medical profession… requires written test of acceptable or above level. Or perhaps medical practicioners should be allowed to do business based on their “on the job performance”, “observations” and “interpersonal relations”?
There’s a difference between entry level tests and tests for promotion to high supervisory positions. All of the fireman presumably passed the entry level test. But I read that 60% of the criteria for promotion to captain or Lieutenant was the written test. Yes, I took a written test, several decades ago, to meet the entry level requirements for licensure/certification. But, since then, it has all been on the job performance. I don’t know of any college, university, medical practice, law firm, or business which uses written tests as a basis for choosing high level supervisors. I’m not challenging you, Mata, but I think that any business which would base 60% of the selection of the highest level supervisors on a written test is probably a business which will not compete with Apple, Google, Genentech, Sprint, or virtually any large corporation or small business in the private sector. The major criteria have to be job performance and leadership skills, which can’t be assessed in any written test.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach
By the way, Curt didn’t really answer my question. I didn’t ask what criteria were used for promotion; I was asking for the correlation between scores on the written test and actual leadership effectiveness. Are the best leaders and supervisors the ones who score highest on the tests?
OMG, Larry… you have no continuing education requirements to keep your license? Or are you not a licensed anything?
I’ve got friends that work at supermarkets. They have to take tests for promotions. Our military cannot advance in rank without written tests, despite their stellar on the job performance. Police, firemen, many places require this. You speak like written tests as part of promotion are alien.
Again you are living in the extremes. THe best leaders and supervisors have many qualities, including among them a reflection of their comprehension and knowledge via written tests. You seem to think this has absolutely no importance whatsoever. Baffling.
We need 25 hours of continuing medical education per year to remain licensed. Basically, glorified classroom work (often dinner lectures, with dinner paid for by pharmaceutical companies). But no one and and I mean no one gets promoted or a pay raise or anything else based on which of these courses one takes. And there are no “examinations,” per se. Maybe 5 open book questions to provide some assurance that person in question actually attended. And the odd CPR recertification or whatever. In some specialties, there are periodic recertification exams — however, these are simply to retain one’s “certs” and in no way determine who gets promoted to Department Chair or who makes partner or anything like that.
You really think that a written test should be 60% of who gets chosen as a Fire Captain? Or a Department Chair? Or as Vice President for Finance? Or as head of the Department of Human Resources? It’s totally absurd. Anyone who runs a business that way won’t have a competitive business.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA