The demonstrations continue on in Iran but the crowds are getting smaller as the Basij thugs are becoming more and more brutal:
Security forces wielding clubs and firing weapons beat back demonstrators who flocked to a Tehran square Wednesday to continue protests, two witnesses said.
One witness said security forces beat people like “animals.”
~~~At least two sources described wild and violent conditions at a part of Tehran where protesters had planned to demonstrate.
“They were waiting for us,” the source said. “They all have guns and riot uniforms. It was like a mouse trap.
“I see many people with broken arms, legs, heads — blood everywhere — pepper gas like war,” the source said.
Around “500 thugs” with clubs came out of a mosque and attacked people in the square, another source said.
The security forces were “beating women madly” and “killing people like hell,” the source said.
“They beat up a woman so bad she was all bloody,” the source said in a description that underscores the growing and central role of women in the uprising.
“Women are playing an amazing role in the streets, both in terms of numbers and effectiveness,” according to a member of Mir Hossein Moussavi’s party.
The Iranian capital remained tense Wednesday. Some residents said they were too afraid to talk about the political crisis over the phone to anyone in the United States or Europe. Many protesters debated whether to show up on the streets.
“I am not going outside my house at all! The streets are too dangerous, and just so very busy with police,” a 21-year-old college student from Tehran said. “Ahhhh, when will our lives get back to normal?”
Worried that the government was monitoring their phone conversations, some residents said the Internet was the best way to transmit information. However, the spotty connection made it difficult to rely on the Web.
“It’s beyond fear,” said a woman who arrived at a U.S. airport from Iran but still did not want her name used for fear for her safety. “The situation is more like terror.” Video Watch arrivals describe the situation
Reports of arrests of foreign nationals are also being spread claiming they are helping to incite the protests. Also, the Iranian government is now claiming Neda may have been killed by mistake….stating, get this, that the marksmen had mistaken her for the sister of a member of the People’s Mujahedin Organization of Iran, which promotes a secular Marxist government.
Latest video to come out of the unrest:
And another flip-flop from Obama:
The Obama administration is seriously considering not extending invitations to Iranian diplomats for July 4 celebrations overseas, senior administration officials tell CNN.
The officials said intense discussions on the issue were taking place, but the final decision had not been made.
Late last month the State Department sent a cable to its embassies and consulates worldwide informing them they “may invite representatives from the government of Iran” to their July 4th celebrations.
The U.S. receptions marking Independence Day usually feature symbols of Americana, such as hot dogs, red-white-and-blue decorations and remarks by U.S. officials about America’s founding fathers.
I swear, the man can’t help but straddle the fence, waiting to see which way the wind blows. The true sign of a non-leader.
See author page
If you read this blog, you’d think that there is unanimous consensus that Obama has made a hash out of Iran. But the only people critical of Obama on this issue have been Republican politicians and their hard core supporters.
Everyone else, from former George W Bush administration Iranian diplomats to the likes of Henry Kissinger to the Iranians themselves to George Will to US Iranian scholars, have been in agreement that the President’s actions have been entirely appropriate, given the circumstances.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=105802915
On NPR’s “Fresh Air” yesterday, there was an interview with an Iranian-American analyst Karim Sadjadpour of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.
>>Before joining Carnegie, Sadjadpour was the chief Iran analyst at the International Crisis Group, based in Tehran and Washington, D.C.<<
Anyway, Sadjadpour said what it obvious truth: The present “mini-revolution” against the Iranian Governing Regime would have been inconceivable, were George W Bush still the President of the USA. The leadership of this “mini-revolution” includes a number of prominent 1979 Iranian revolutionaries, who were part of the “Death to America Culture” (a term used by Sadjadpour). It was only after Obama’s overtures to Iran in particular and the Muslim world in general that the Iranian people now feel free to fall out of lock step support of a struggle against a common enemy (the Great Satan USA) and to begin the process of changing their own governance and international policies.
Can’t you see how, even now, the “Supreme Ruler” is trying to quell dissent by claiming it’s simply a result of Western agitation? Don’t you see the significance behind Great Britain replacing the USA as the new Iranian Public Enemy Number One? Why did this happen? Because Obama has skillfully convinced the Iranian people that the USA is no longer the enemy of Iran.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
Strikes will be more effective than street protests now. If they could convince the oil workers to strike, this would be over in a week.
He’s gonna continue to waffle. He is clueless folks. Way way way over his paygrade.
Larry, you have become absolutely derranged, or a troll. It’s hard to tell which. To claim that obama had anything to do with the current situation is laughable.
These same people existed before obama was in office and they rose up when the election was stolen from them-PERIOD.
Look at what obama said in his Egypt speech. He basically supported the iranian leadership which is made up of Jew hating psychos that want to wipe Isarel and America off the map.
As for Kissinger, if you think he’s a valid source for an opinion that is proof he isn’t. George Will? So what. last I checked he didn’t exactly have his finger on the pulse of the Conservative movement.
Iranian scholars? You mean the people who never get it right and always want to coddle iran? LOL.
I was kidding in the past when I said you needed help, but I’m not now. You are in pathological denial and are sinking deeper into your obama fantasy.
You probably think he’s governing from the center and that his picks were moderates.
Since the spam monster got my other post:
Here’s what your man Karim Sadjadpour has to say about obama and Iran. He sounds like a KOSlim, DUNGite, or you larry.
http://www.carnegieendowment.org/publications/index.cfm?fa=view&id=22880
Larry, I never thought that a Dr. self medicating was a good thing, but I think you should start…or stop. One of the two. You really sound extremely delusional.
I see your irony meter is still broken there Hard Right…
And you believe Sadjadpour? Why?
“Obama is Great, and Sadjadpour is his Prophet”.
Please point me solid evidence that “Obama’s overtures to Iran in particular and the Muslim world in general” was the spark for this “mini-revolution”. And what is up with this?
Remember when Farhenheit 9/11 came out and was shown in Iran? What was the reaction? According to Banafsheh Zand-Bonazzi, pro-American sentiments:
I’ll pick a Bush speech over an Obama speech any day of the week:
And somehow you deem Iranians should consider Bush the face of “The Great Satan” and Obama the One with the halo?
I’m more a fan of the Bush Effect.
Muslims liberated:
Bush: 50 million
Obama: the big “0”
Firstly, I was merely quoting the opinion of a bona fide Iranian expert, who makes it clear, in his interview, that he is foursquare for regimen change in Iran. This doesn’t mean that he’s correct, but he is an Iranian American; he is a bona fide expert; he wants regime change; and he makes a cogent argument that Obama is doing the right thing by Iran and that, absent Obama, it is not conceivable that the former Iran revolution hard liners who are the most important players in the current challenge to the “Supreme Ruler” would have taken their present positions has George W Bush still been in the Presidency.
And there are other very credible, knowledgeable people who support the Obama approach as well (quoted elsewhere), such as John Negroponte, former US national intelligence director in the Bush administration.
Michael Moore is an extremist. He’s got close to zero credibility and everyone knows it. It’s a straw man to go bringing up Moore. He’s not relevant. Who cares?
What did all that Bush “Axis of Evil” stuff ever accomplish in Iran? How many centrifuges were shut down? Obama has done more to move Iran in a positive direction in 5 months than Bush did in 8 years.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
Look around, Larry. All those VOA support broadcasts into Iran must of had an effect on the Iranian youth. And what has Obama accomplished but another lesson in how to straddle fences?
Welp, there’s one on your side, Larry. I gave you three references to “bonafide Iranian experts” on the other thread. You’re down by at least two.
But there is never “consensus” as long as humans inhabit the earth.
My reply to 7 went to spam.
– Larry W
Geez….let me spell out the point:
It’s not about Moore’s film, specifically. It’s something that came to mind when reading your “Obama > Bush” on the democracy promotion front. The Iranian government figured they could use Moore’s propaganda film to show their people how terrible Bush is. What a brutal, warmongering dictator. Instead, Iranians were walking away from the movie with much the reaction Russians had when the Soviet government showed footage of America’s minority population living in poverty. What Russians came away with was not how bad America’s poor, black population had it, but just how much better off even the poor in America had it. In similar fashion, the fact that people like Moore have the freedom to say whatever he wishes about our president- and rake in millions of dollars from it, and not sent to Club Gitmo for waterboarding, illustrated for Iranians just what they themselves are denied, living under an Islamic theocratic regime.
Down by two, am I?
1.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0624/p06s01-woeu.html
2.
http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/diplomacy/bushs-iran-ambassador-lauds-obamas-handling-of-iran-crisis/
Dueling banjos
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
Let’s see, Larry… from the CS Monitor link, that was two critical (Graham and Burt), and two pro (Negroponte and Bouchard) for Obama’s fence straddling. That’s a break even there. Altho Negroponte was not a specific opinion on Obama’s Iran stance, but a review of his foreign policy in general. You have to understand, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, detainees at Bagram (Obama’s new Gitmo) are all a continuation of the Bush foreign policy. You will notice that you can’t find a Negoponte comment specifically addressing Obama’s Iranian fence straddling anywhere on the net. I’m not sure he’s weighed in, since the libs would wave that flag high.
But hey… you’re down in the count for “true” experts, so we’ll give you the benefit of the doubt for Negroponte to bolster your spirits. I, personally, don’t buy it until I see him speak on that issue specifically.
Tossing in Negoponte gives you a mean increase of one on “the count” (assuming we don’t find out exactly how many Iranian demonstrators talked to Nico Pitney, and count each individually) just for Nicholas Burns. That would be Clinton’s Soviet nations advisor on his NSC, and Dir of Soviet Affairs for Bush, the elder. He was with the Clinton admim the entire term, an serving as Ambassador to Greece in the last 3-4 years under Clinton. He then became the Ambassador to NATO until retiring in 2008.
So far, one big time “Iranian expert”, eh? And hardly a Bush (either one) devotee… just in case you’re looking for a Dubya Defection. He’s one of those international types of guys… a big EU fan, CFR member etal. Can you say globalist and “citizen of the world”?
But an Iranian expert? Maybe you don’t even deserve a full point for that one… LOL
Burns still goes up against the *true* Iranian experts I provided, Michael Ledeen, Joshua Muravchik, and protesters in the street (thru CNN) and on the Iran Updates comments site.
As I said, there will never be a consensus as long as humans inhabit the planet. For every one you can give me, I can come up with another counter. So that’s an exercise in futility.
The point is, whether Obama supports them or not, the US is blamed as part of the uprising… as is Iran’s history. They actually make very good Democrats. Nothing is ever *their* fault. They are always the “victim” of someone for their shortcomings and brutality.
This makes the “foil” argument moot… and leaves you all predicting parallel universes about how much “worse” the bloodbath would be… “if”….
Sorry… parallel universes and sewage filled crystal balls don’t fly as fact.
Yay! The links game:
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
Hmm…remember that 2007 NIE that said with “high confidence” that a military-run Iranian program intended to transform raw material into a nuclear weapon was shut down in 2003? What led the Iranians to do such a thing? Was it Khameini discovering his inner Ghandi? What was it in 2003…….
What major historic event occurred…..think….think…..
Was it the 2003 OIF that took just two weeks to overrun Baghdad?
Even if it were peaceful international pressures, wasn’t that led by the Bush administration who called out Iran as one-third of the triumvirate axis?
Yup…it wasn’t until the golden Age of Obama that diplomacy flourished, that the fields are now littered with daffodils and pink marshmellow clouds and fuzzy bunnies. He inherited nothing from the Bush years, except the bad.
Word, larry has gone full mental. He is beyond reason or sanity.
No sense even responding to Larry. We will find him in a corner of a smelly Starbucks rocking back and forth chanting stimulus, stimulus, stimulus. Let him be. He’s harmless. He’s probably out razorblading his Obama bumper sticker off the VW wagon as I write this.
It’s a shame we can’t set-up radio stations or television to broadcast to those protesters inside Iran and show to them that much of the rest of the free world supports their cause.
A “Radio Free Iran’ as it were.
Sad to say, but I see this Iranian revolt against the mullahs as a direct result of the Bush Presidency seeking to bring freedom to the Middle East.
If you are going to do something, don’t do it by half measures.
The problem is Islam and as long as Islam is a dominant force in their culture, nothing will change, except perhaps a new generation of freedom loving youngsters who have been tricked by the West into believing they had a chance of standing up to murderous Islam will be slaughtered.
In so many of the photographs of demonstrators, so many of them look so secular and Western.
It is so sad to see so many young people, striving for freedom, only to run smack bang into full fundamental murderous Islam.
They don’t have a chance without outside help.
When the coalition pulls out of Iraq, I expect to see the same thing happening there as well, with all those Iraqis who are perceived to have helped the crusader infidels or who are too “Western” in dress or outlook being butchered.
“Always with the negative waves” ~ Oddball, Kelly’s Heroes
Blaming Bush for this is total b*llsh*t. At last count, Islam youth outnumbers the tyrants. It is not impossible for them to successfully revolt, as that country’s own history shows. In fact it is much easier than would be possible in many other countries.
What all of my (and Obama’s) critics fail to understand is that what is most important about the goings on in Iran are not the “grass roots” street demonstrations. It is the fact that the veterans of the 1979 Islamic revolution — charter members of the “Death to America Culture” — are, in fact, participating and and leading the effort against the “Supreme Leader.”
e.g.,
Moussavi, Khatami, Rafsanjani, etc.
it’s utterly inconceivable that these Mullah’s would be doing what they are now doing, were Bush still in office and had Obama not given them the cover they needed to do what they are now doing. Haven’t you seen how desperately important it is to the Iranian power structure to try and make the demonstrations appear to be inspired by the West? Today, Ahmadinejad is saying that there’s no difference between George Bush and Obama. He’s saying it, but his people aren’t believing it.
Note to Wordsmith: Thanks for clarifying the point of your Michael Moore reference. I didn’t understand your point initially.
With respect to Iran briefly suspending uranium enrichment, circa 2003 — yes, the invasion had a temporary effect, but this boomeranged later on, once the severe limits of US military capabilities were revealed to the world. The USA became hopelessly overextended, on account of Iraq, and both Iran and North Korea realized that there was no credible threat of an Iraq-style US invasion. So they resumed their nuclear enrichment efforts. As I said, the policies of George W Bush did nothing whatsoever to change the policies of North Korea and Iran — if anything, the Bush policies and actions emboldened both North Korea and Iran.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
reply to 13, 15, 17 went to spam
While waiting for my response to Wordsmith to be resurrected from spam, here’s one to Mata:
http://www.acus.org/new_atlanticist/obama-right-iran-islam-experts
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
Larry, you’ve been caught trying to smuggle a cherry pie to an apple pie contest, guy. Per your link:
No where in any of my posts have I demanded that Obama “support” either candidate. In fact I am on record as saying that *is* meddling. (Besides, both are different flavors of scum…)
Thus comes the same quandary as happens with poll results, and you examine how the question was worded. Not one critic was asking Obama to support Mousavi over Ahmadinejad. What we are asking is an undeniable statement of American values that any questionable/stolen election is unacceptable (despite who wins…) without legitimate int’l oversight on the recount, and that human rights abuses is not only unacceptable and not an “internal” problem, but an act that will result in additional repercussions.
Instead, Obama holds on to taking a wait and see, and will negotiate with a dictator and regime that mows down their dissenters and outright steals an election and refuses full recounts with unbiased, third party oversight.
And, if you’ll notice, they agree with me and the others disgruntled with Obama’s wishy washy approach… ala “you support human rights”. Obama did not “support” the demonstrators. He “tut tut’ed” the regime for mowing them down with nary a promise of repercussion.
America does not negotiate with terrorists and despots… especially those in power via coups and brutality right under our noses. Or at least my America doesn’t. Obama’s America apparently has new rules.
So sorry… the “true experts” on Iran you provide are not giving an opinion on anything we disagree with. ala… no support for a particular candidate. So take your cherry pie home… no points for you.
You are a busy guy, so it’s no surprise you are still behind the times. But considering you posted this also on the other Iran thread, I can see you skipped over a very important article I included in a response to Yonason. That being the opposition has lost their charm for Mousavi because of his reluctance to lead and appear, and this is no longer about his candidacy and winning, but about a manipulated election and police thuggery to quell free speech. He has shown himself to be just another opportunist. Then again, only Khomenei shills were allowed to run anyway…
Read the Las Vegas Sun’s reprint of the June 23rd AP article, and you may get up to date.
Now if you can also get up to date on why Iran is going after Britain and the EU as their latest #1 enemy, we’ll all be happy. Hint: has nothing to do with what Obama did or did not say in Cairo, or his impotent, johnny-come-lately non-leadership INRE the election illegitimacy and violence.