While speaking in Ankara, Turkey this week, President Obama made an astonishing proclamation. He claimed, “We do not consider ourselves a Christian nation.” Instead, he said, “We are a nation of citizens”, essentially assigning fealty to ‘the state’ over fealty to God. The world listened, and nodded.
Back home in the U.S., Newsweek editor Jon Meacham welcomed The End of Christian America: “The decline and fall of the modern religious right’s notion of a Christian America creates a calmer political environment and, for many believers, may help open the way for a more theologically serious religious life.”
I guess its settled. God is now outdated, at least among our political and media elite. In their world view, what they sneeringly call the religious right is now merely a fringe group. America itself has evolved to a higher plane. A more progressive plane, if you will.
The overwhelming majority of Americans who profess faith in God are being told that the times have changed. Christianity, our ruling elite inform us, is only one of many religions, all of which are equal.
In case we don’t get it, President Obama, while abroad, expressed a deep appreciation for the Islamic faith while, here at home, he appointed a gay-rights activist to the federal government’s faith-based initiative. Said activist described Pope Benedict XVI and certain Catholic bishops as “discredited leaders.” Get it?
The election of Barack Obama has ushered in a new era in the war for hearts and minds in America. Obama, representing the left, believes that man, not God, is omnipotent, thus paving the way for man (Obama) to take control of every facet of life in America. Obama and the government know best. They are now in charge.
President Obama is asking for your blind faith, the faith usually reserved for God. Without any record of achievement, he asks that you believe in him, that you follow his dictates. That you allow him to lead us from the wilderness.
What Obama is doing has been done before. Successfully. In the former Soviet Union, churches operated only with permission of the state. In China, the crackdown continues on underground churches. The ‘state’ knows it must have supremacy over God in order to effectively rule (subjugate) its citizens.
Pol Pot knew this. Lenin knew this. Mao Tse Tung knew this. Any dictator who conquers a country through force knows this. And Obama knows this.
In order for the state to be supreme, fealty to God, to family and to communities, must be replaced with fealty to the state. This strategy is now being implemented in America, with increasing success.
The traditional family, the backbone of our nation, is being redefined as we speak. The institution of marriage is being undermined by the creeping acceptance of gay marriage. Faith in God is being replaced with faith in Mother Earth.
Its no mistake that the Obama administration is jumping aboard the environmental bandwagon. They recognize the basic human desire to believe in a cause or ideal greater than ourselves.
By making the environment the new religion, all those higher feelings may be directed and manipulated by the state. And all that money, formerly called tithing, may now be directed towards supposed efforts by the government to ‘save the planet.’ In other words, God can’t save the planet, only man can.
Liberalism frees man from pesky moral restraints and abolishes sin in favor of the celebration of self. Guilt may now be assuaged by advocating for environmental purity. Best of all, total redemption is available for those who care enough to become ‘carbon neutral.’
In order for this to work, government has to get God out of the way. And they’re doing a bang-up job. The ACLU has terrorized cities across the country with threats of lawsuits for allowing the barest hint of religion into state policy.
The secularist media portrays anything smacking of Christianity as totally beyond the pale. Newspapers, magazines and television are of one mind, depicting any show of faith in God as a fringe mentality, as unseemly as picking one’s nose in public.
God is now passe, at least according to those elites who set the agenda in our country. Environmentalism is the new religion for all right thinking people. And if you don’t agree, well, it doesn’t matter. Obama won, haven’t you heard? He has claimed a mandate, and, so far, no one is challenging it. We voted for it. We got it.
First rule of the Universe – Thou shalt not pi$$ God off!! Just because one does not believe that HE exists, doesn’t make it true! I know God has a sense of humor and HE must be sitting on HIS throne, looking down on earth at all us self-important people, laughing HIS a$$ off!!!
Word to the wise – choose your side on earth because it will be permanent forever!
One would have to ask oneself.. Is America a Christian Nation?
http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/xian.php
http://vanguardchurch.blogspot.com/2006/08/myth-of-christian-nation.html
One thing intolerant Conservative Christians forget is that Jews, Muslims and Christians all worship the same God, The God of Abraham. As a Christian, I know God loves all people, but hates the sin, not the sinner. All three faiths are really in the same “family”, have been blessed by him to thrive, prosper, and not be destroyed from the face of this Earth, and been blessed by the God of Abraham to be many nations. Do you believe that God is any different today than He was when he gave those Blessings to the seed of Sarah and Hagar?
The problem is that every Religious group feels so strongly that they are “with God” and that others are not. Every Religious group has their own scriptures to back up their beliefs. Even the Christian religions are splintered into many many faiths who have different standards of who will be saved.
The government has no business being a Christian, Muslim, Jewish, or any other religious promoter. Jesus didn’t promote overthrow of the Romans, but said “render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar’s, and unto God that which is Gods”
Your comment: “Pol Pot knew this. Lenin knew this. Mao Tse Tung knew this. Any dictator who conquers a country through force knows this. And Obama knows this.” Is against what Jesus himself preached. Nobody has conquered this country by force, there was an election, and Obama is no Pol Pot, and the Plan that God has for this world is being fulfilled according to His Word.
If God is in control, and all powerful, why do you think he would forsake you and not have the leaders in this country who were in accordance with his plan? Where’s the Faith in God? God would have spared Sodom and Gomorah if there were 10 righteous people in the cities. If you think God will allow this Nation to be destroyed because of our President, then you and millions of others either are not praying to Him, or maybe you are not as righteous as you may think in God’s Eyes. if your are righteous before Him, he will not forsake you.
You said: “Said activist described Pope Benedict XVI and certain Catholic bishops as “discredited leaders.” Get it?”
The Catholic Church hardly has a good record, unless you consider child molesting and covering up for their priests, and history of anti science or anything opposed to their teachings ( Galileio comes to mind) as great role models for Christianity, among many other examples.
If the Government doesn’t promote your particular beliefs regarding Faith in God, let God work his will and have faith in Him. He does know what His plan is and what He is doing. After all, the founders of this country left England to escape the Church of England and have freedom to worship as they chose. Let’s not lose sight of that now in favor of your’s or anybody else’s particular beliefs. God’s job is to sort that out, not ours, and certainly not the Governments job.
Moose,
You give us several worthwhile reminders; however, Nancy’s main point still stands. If a leader of a nation turns against God, particularly if it has a specific history with God (as in Israel and the United States) one does a tremendous disservice to the people one is supposed to be serving. Would Turkey’s leaders do their country a good turn by dismissing their 1000-year history of Islam? Should India’s leadership make decisions directly abhorrent to the Hindu majority?
Further, there really can’t be an argument – though I’ve seen it done with a straight face – that our heritage is not specifically Judeo-Christian. It isn’t Muslim or Buddhist or atheist. If someone is ripping our roots out (in a similar way to destroying capitalism and establishing a socialist ethos) we have every right to call it what it is and protest it.
Praying for Obama as our leader is not the same as condoning what he does. The first Christians prayed for the emperors, even Caligula and Nero, but when called on the carpet they did not pretend that what they were doing was right or acceptable.
It’s easy to attack the Catholic Church, but maybe that’s one prejudice we here should not indulge in. Every organization made of human beings, divinely founded or not is going to have problems. Jesus himself foresaw as much in his Parable of the Steward about possible misconduct of the Apostles’ successors. If you look at the whole picture honestly and openly, you might find the vast majority of Catholic history is full of civilizing, charity, miracles and bridge-building in many instances. And any nation which includes such history in its past like we do with the Carrolls, Seton, the Irish, the Francos and so many others should not have its leaders denigrating it.
Also, as an “intolerant Conservative Christian”, actually many of us understand how much tolerance of others is such a main thrust of our Founder. However, being tolerant of others, leaving the judgment of their worth and ultimate destiny to God does not mean we do not have the right to proclaim truth as we see it in the public arena in order to try and affect the public good. I, for one, well appreciate the mutual roots and destiny of the three great Western Religions; that doesn’t change the fact we are a Judeo-Christian nation.
We should be thanking Nancy for saying all this. I, for one, say thank you, Nancy.
Mooseburger said: “One thing intolerant Conservative Christians forget is that Jews, Muslims and Christians all worship the same God, The God of Abraham. As a Christian, I know God loves all people, but hates the sin, not the sinner. All three faiths are really in the same “family”, have been blessed by him to thrive, prosper, and not be destroyed from the face of this Earth, and been blessed by the God of Abraham to be many nations. Do you believe that God is any different today than He was when he gave those Blessings to the seed of Sarah and Hagar?”
Then how would you define a “tolerant” Christian? Someone who compromises his faith and principles to appease the world? Bible tells us “Friendship with the world is hatred towards God” James 4:4. Then if we become part of the world then do we put God secondary in our life?
I don’t buy the three faith’s, one God theory. maybe with the Jewish and Christian but not muslim. What distinguishes Christianity from Islam is in order to be saved one has have Christ as their savior. Because Chirst is the mediator between us and God and paid for our sins with his life. Muslims do not believe that Christ is their savior, they acknowledge his existence and do consider him holy but not as the Son of God.
The problem is that every Religious group feels so strongly that they are “with God” and that others are not. Every Religious group has their own scriptures to back up their beliefs. Even the Christian religions are splintered into many many faiths who have different standards of who will be saved.
Moose: “The government has no business being a Christian, Muslim, Jewish, or any other religious promoter. Jesus didn’t promote overthrow of the Romans, but said “render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar’s, and unto God that which is Gods”
But Government does not and cannot be an obstacle to religious expression like the phony “separation of Church and state” that is no where in the Constitution. It was made up by the Supreme court in the late 40’s early 50’s.
Government’s job set forth by the Constitution is be protectors of our freedoms and institutions. They are nothing more then stewards not kings. If government wishes to recognize Christmas as a national holiday then so be it because that is our heritage. The first amendment states government(Federal) cannot endorse any particular religion but cannot prevent the free exercise of.
I prefer the US to be a Christian nation because that is the morality that has made us civil and a super power. Why do other people want to flock to our nation? Because they see this nation of having a strong foundation because of her good people and our heritage. They wish to live some where where we are free and yet have security in having freedom. I don’t imagine if we started as an “atheist” nation if we could survive due to the fact not knowing our rights come from God and not man gives us something to fight for. (Nothing against my atheist friends)
Moose; “Your comment: “Pol Pot knew this. Lenin knew this. Mao Tse Tung knew this. Any dictator who conquers a country through force knows this. And Obama knows this.” Is against what Jesus himself preached. Nobody has conquered this country by force, there was an election, and Obama is no Pol Pot, and the Plan that God has for this world is being fulfilled according to His Word.”
Obama is no pol pot but as a state senator, he voted TWICE against baby’s surviving an abortion to get medical treatment. Obama is a piece of CRAP if you ask me. Does he really care about the most innocent among us?
Moose: “If God is in control, and all powerful, why do you think he would forsake you and not have the leaders in this country who were in accordance with his plan? Where’s the Faith in God? God would have spared Sodom and Gomorah if there were 10 righteous people in the cities. If you think God will allow this Nation to be destroyed because of our President, then you and millions of others either are not praying to Him, or maybe you are not as righteous as you may think in God’s Eyes. if your are righteous before Him, he will not forsake you.”
God won’t destroy our nation over one man however he won’t heal our nation like in 2 Chronicles 7:14 because of where our heart is. That being said, things will not get better over one man when people to take inventory of themselves and acknowledge their relationship to the Lord.
Moose: “The Catholic Church hardly has a good record, unless you consider child molesting and covering up for their priests, and history of anti science or anything opposed to their teachings ( Galileio comes to mind) as great role models for Christianity, among many other examples.”
I don’t agree with everything with the Catholic church however they did play a big part in bring civility the the modern world. If you are going to point problems then can you find me an institution that has been perfect the the history of man? You can’t and won’t. Blaming the church for child molestations is one thing but when our liberal media ignores the thousands of cases each year of teacher/student sex then there’s a double standard. partly because the media and alot of liberals hate the church because they see the church as an obstacle to liberals bringing their agenda into the mainstream. You think this is absurd but Hitler, Lenin, pol pot and Moa did not allow the church worship freely in their countries.
Who’s says the church is against science? How did the US send a man to the moon? Were all the people in the space program atheist?
If there is an ideology that is anti-science it’s liberalism. Because liberalism worships the cult of Global Warming and any junk science that they espouse. The democrats are using global warming as mean to regulate us to death and tax our industry into non-existence….all in the name of junk science. Just because you accuse the other side of being anti-scientific doesn’t mean your side has any credibility to do so.
In fact, the Democrats don’t have much to stand on in their short history in the world.
The party of Slavery.
The party of segregation.
The party of internment camps.
The party of big government and reckless spending.
Moose: “If the Government doesn’t promote your particular beliefs regarding Faith in God, let God work his will and have faith in Him. He does know what His plan is and what He is doing. After all, the founders of this country left England to escape the Church of England and have freedom to worship as they chose. Let’s not lose sight of that now in favor of your’s or anybody else’s particular beliefs. God’s job is to sort that out, not ours, and certainly not the Governments job.”
The founders left England so they can worship freely not to be influenced by the king. In communist China today a church as to be certified by the government to exist. That is the same back in old England. The rank of authority was God, then the king and so on. The king was the mediator in everything and that’s why our founding fathers left and started this great nation.
mlajoie2: You made some good points. I wouldn’t argue that America doesn’t have strong Christian roots, only that we have never been a Theocracy. Wikipedia’s definition of a theocracy is:
Theocracy is a form of government in which a god or deity is recognized as the state’s supreme civil ruler,[1] or in a broader sense, a form of government in which a state is governed by immediate divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided.
If most Americans are Christians, I think that’s great, however, I sure don’t want the government ran as a Christian Theocracy in any way, nor can I agree that the President is Like Pol Pot for any reason, much less for stating the truth. Being an American means I have the freedom to worship in the faith of my choice, If I came from repressive China, and want worship Bhudda, I can do it more freely here than perhaps in my home country. Here in America, I don’t have a Government frowning on me or repressing me because I am not of the Christian faith. There are just so many ways that this country could get way off track, worse than now even, if we start expecting our leaders to declare and impose a Christian Nation Doctrine here at home and around the world.
b1jetmech: I see you know your Bible and made some good points too. James 4:11 is applicable too, and admonishes against judging your Brother. I won’t get into who is “a piece of crap” for their beliefs, because even though I am against Abortion as well, it is the law of the land, and I have heard two sides to that issue regarding Obama and that vote. I haven’t been convinced that Obama is a baby killer, no more than I am convinced that Bush sent thousands of troops to their deaths with a needless war.
b1jetmech Said: Who’s says the church is against science? How did the US send a man to the moon? Were all the people in the space program atheist?
I meant that teaching that evolution does not happen, is just bad science. Take the Flu Virus, it evolves and changes, and adapts. If the guys who make the Flu vaccines took a pure Modern Conservative Christian stand against evolution and were making those flu shots, they wouldn’t work, and more people would get the flu and maybe die. They have to believe evolution happens and try to anticipate the future of the virus in order to have any chance of a vaccine that works. As for Global Warming, we know it’s happening, we don’t really know why. Could be a whole lot of smaller things converging at once. The risks of doing nothing and being wrong are far worse than the risk of doing something and being right. If you smoke two packs of cigarettes every day for 40 years, your polluting your body, and there will some affect on you. If you take millions of years of carbon deposits and put them in the atmosphere in 100 years time, it is reasonable to believe that will have an effect as well. I couldn’t with authority tell you what the truth is about global warming, and although you condemn those who believe it, I wonder if it ever crosses your mind, what if I am wrong about this issue?
As for the list of bad Democratic stands during their short time on Earth, There’s plenty to go around for both sides.
Nancy wrote a thoughtful post, but I think it also has a strong flavor of not accepting Obama as the president, and using a Christian viewpoint as a reason to not accept him. That personal view is everyone’s right, but it doesn’t make it true that this country’s government or Constitution holds that this is a Christian Nation. It may well be a Christian Nation in and of itself, but not from the standpoint of our our government or constitution. I don’t think Obama was wrong in what he said as POTUS or as our elected representative abroad.
I have been blogging on a number of scientific websites, including the New Scientist (out of the UK). What I have discovered has really astonished me: of course, as in any ‘atheist’ science website, one finds unrelenting attacks upon Christianity (but not Islam), although certain posts regarding criticism of Islamofascism do survive the local censor.
But here is the kicker: the persons who declare themselves to be atheist (scientists and non-scientists alike) seem to preoccupy themselves with UFO’s, ET’s, and Aliens. In fact, they have what one could classify as an almost pathological addiction to the notion that alien life forms exist out there, and that they would like to get in touch with them or at least find them, by spending any amount of money one can muster (mostly through NASA or ESA) ! You find, among atheist ‘scientists’ an almost unexplainable attraction to that ‘alien’ world.
Now this little fact would be of no particular interest to anyone, except maybe the blogging fanatics, and the analysts of the blogging subculture. However, it was dawn on me after months of posting on these websites that these ‘atheists’ (most of them Westerners and former either Christians or Jews) have replaced in their brain the part formerly occupied by ‘religion and a Supreme Being’ with the ‘alien world’ of UFO’s, ET’s, and similar creatures.
One could easily dismiss the ‘coincidence’ of having atheists (usually, left wing liberals) espouse beliefs in UFO’s etc, as a fluke. But I would suggest that this is not so. The mental state of these people (overwhelmingly supportive of the current US President) is such that they hold in their minds the opinion that a ‘non-existent’ ‘God’ is an outdated and useless notion, concurrently with the belief in a notion of an ‘alien out there’ as far more likely to exist, interesting and ‘cool.’
One could go as far as even suggesting that this fact may be one of the key underlying factors in electing Obama: a key sector of the electorate opted for the ‘other candidate, from out there, distant from the main picture of a ‘typical’ ‘old-fashion’ American.
Be that as it may, these beliefs in ‘alien worlds’ don’t bode well for this country or its future.
Those who believe in nothing, are subject to believe in anything.
@mooseburger:
From the very first sentence of your post, your argument is flawed.
Yes, Jews, Muslims, and Christians can trace their roots back to the same God, the God of Abraham.
The Muslims did not, however, stay on that path.
They deviated into worship of Allah and Mohammed which are diametrically opposed, and demonstrably different, than the God of Abraham.
Allah is the Arabic pagan moon god. Nothing more, nothing less.
@Real American Patriot:
Bruce,
Anyone who puts forth the argument that the US is not a Christian nation is either ignorant of the truth or is purposely engaging in deception.
I would say that you’re purposely engaging in deception on this issue but, quite frankly, you’re not that smart.
Aye: if you believe the Muslims stayed on that path or not, I stand by the fact that the three Religions all worship the same God of Abraham
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham
Judaism, Christianity and Islam are sometimes referred to as the “Abrahamic religions” because of the progenitor role Abraham plays in their holy books.
Abraham is held as a founding father in the Jewish, Christian and Islamic religions. Genesis states that the nation of Israel descended from him through his second son, Isaac. Many Arab nations are said to have descended from him through his first son, Ishmael, and Muslims believe that the prophet Muhammad is his direct descendent.
Abraham is revered by Muslims as one of the Prophets in Islam, and is commonly termed Khalil Ullah, “Friend of God”.
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Abraham
The faith of Ibrahim is called Millat-e-Ibrahim in the Qur’an. Muslims believe that Ibrahim is a prophet of God, in accordance with the narrative of his life in the Qur’an. Ibrahim and his son Ismail are said to have fixed the Kaaba in Mecca. (Qur’an 2:125). Ibrahim also has an important role in one of the Pillars of Islam, the Hajj, which is a pilgrimage to the Holy Mosque. The principal aspect of the Hajj is remembering Ibrahim’s sacrifice of Ismail (Ibrahim’s firstborn son) and his path to the altar where Iblis (Satan) attempted to dissuade him three times.
There are numerous references to Ibrahim in the Qur’an. According to the Qur’an, Ibrahim is the spiritual father of all the believers.
From:http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Didn%27t_Islam_start_from_Abraham
Islam was revealed to the world by the (self declared) prophet Muhammad around the year 600. Muslims, however, do not believe that he was the creator of a new religion, but simply the restorer of the original, uncorrupted monotheistic faith of Adam, Abraham and others, muslims believe in one god who has no equals.same as abrahams faith was based on monotheiesm. in islam that is the first five pillars of faith.aswell the fact that prophet mohamedh pbuh is a descent of prophet abraham.
I know there are Christian sites that state what you said above, that Allah is the Moon God, but this is mostly a Christian belief ABOUT Muslims, and not what Muslims believe themselves. Each believe they worship the God of Abraham. Maybe judging side by side each God’s characteristics, as witnessed by the behavior of their respective believers, they may not appear to be the same God, but the point of my comment remains true, all three Religions trace their God to be from the God of Abraham, whom they worship. If we can have so many different versions of Christianity, it’s not a far leap to believe that God indeed blessed the offspring of Sarah and Hagar as stated in my Bible, and that Christians and Muslims both have gotten off the true path and distorted what the One True God had set them upon.
Americans are a tolerant people. Unfortunately, our tolerance is being manipulated by those that seek to undermine marriage, family and God – with much success
@mooseburger:
You can quote from Wiki until your fingers fall off.
That will NOT make the information that you post correct.
If you are familiar at all with the god of the Koran, then you will know that the characteristics of that god CANNOT be squared with the characteristics of the God of Abraham.
If you believe, as I do, that God is unchanging and everlasting then there is no possible way that Yahweh is the same as Allah.
The two are completely different.
The Muslims reject Jesus as God’s son. The Koran says Allah has no son. How can you square even that simple fact with your Bible?
They very basic characteristics of Yahweh and Allah are diametrically opposed to one another.
They are not the same.
No matter what you think.
No matter what the Muslims think.
As to the moon god information, that is simple history. Easily researched. Easily confirmed. Just looking up the symbols used by Islam would be enough to get you started.
PS…. Your Wiki source is incorrect. Ishmael was not sacrificed. He lived to be 137. There may be other errors there as well but once I found that glaring error it was, quite frankly, not worth my time to examine the remainder of your citation.
Aye: Debating what I believe isn’t the point I was making. It makes no sense to try and square what the Bible says with what the Koran says. Of course most Christians believe that their God is not the God of Islam.
You Said: “If you are familiar at all with the god of the Koran, then you will know that the characteristics of that god CANNOT be squared with the characteristics of the God of Abraham.
If you believe, as I do, that God is unchanging and everlasting then there is no possible way that Yahweh is the same as Allah.
The two are completely different.”
If you believe that God sent Jesus as his Son, and the Jewish faith doesn’t believe that, then Jews would also feel that their God would never proclaim through Jesus that the only way to know The Father is Thru the Son, and that His is the only Name under Heaven given among men, whereby we might be saved. Their God is different too, they don’t believe their God did that, or that Jesus was the Son of God. And they believe God is unchanging, and they are still waiting on the Messiah.
@mooseburger:
Well, of course it does.
It makes perfect sense because if Yahweh and Allah are the same, as you claim they are, then the only way to make that argument is to compare and contrast their characteristics.
How else do we know the characteristics of the God of Abraham? How else can we know the characteristics of the moon god Allilah?
That comparison would not, however, support your argument so therefore you cannot do that.
So, let me get this straight.
In your prior posts you want to bring out the Bible as your evidence that the two are the same, yet when I point out a major discrepancy between the Bible and the Koran you suddenly don’t want to make the comparison based on the Bible any more, choosing instead to go off on a bunny trail regarding the Jews.
Now you’re telling me that the Jews and the Muslims and the Christians all have a different God even though in your first post you said that they all worshiped the same one.
Are you confused or is Heaven getting more and more crowded every time you post?
Again, you haven’t shown any sort of conclusive documentation or supporting proof that the God of Abraham and Allah are the same.
Where’s the proof of your claim?
I keep showing you how and why they are different.
Show me how they are the same.
Aye:
All three of their histories, Jews, Christians and Muslims, and some of that history from our Christian Bible, support the history of God’s intervention and blessing of Hagar and Sarah’s seed of Abraham.
When I made the comment:”One thing intolerant Conservative Christians forget is that Jews, Muslims and Christians all worship the same God, The God of Abraham. As a Christian, I know God loves all people, but hates the sin, not the sinner. All three faiths are really in the same “family”, have been blessed by him to thrive, prosper, and not be destroyed from the face of this Earth, and been blessed by the God of Abraham to be many nations. Do you believe that God is any different today than He was when he gave those Blessings to the seed of Sarah and Hagar?
I can plainly see that those blessing were fulfilled, at least to my way of thinking and believing.
When I said Intolerant Conservative Christians, that would mean people who deny the common history and Godhead these three Peoples and their Religions are founded upon.
It was not meant to be a defense of any or every perversion of Gods word, nor even the defense of the hundreds of Christian denominations who have interpreted their belief system in the Name of God to foster their Human belief systems, nor to prove or disprove the Jewish Godhead and their rejection of Christ as the Messiah.
Your entitled to believe what you believe here in America without Government interference, that was the point of my first response to this post.
One point of my posting was to just state my belief that I am glad that America is not a Christian Theocracy.
Another was to point out that Jews, Muslims, and Christians in particular have a common heritage with one another thru Abraham, a righteous man who worshiped One God.
Aye said: “Now you’re telling me that the Jews and the Muslims and the Christians all have a different God even though in your first post you said that they all worshiped the same one.”
Aye: I was telling you what each Religion says ABOUT their God, and tying in the Jewish faith was an analogy, because Christians believe Christ was from the Seed of David, and Christ was a Jew. It is accepted that Jews and Christians worship the same God, No?
If there are differences between the Jewish and Christian doctrines, how can they be from the same God? It’s the same type of thing when you pointed out that Muslim beliefs and Christian beliefs are different, therefore they do not worship the same God. Nobody I know of is going to be able to solve all these questions for you, or for me either. You have to find God as he calls you in your life, if we knew everything, we wouldn’t need to have faith in anything would we?
There is ample proof in my mind that God Blessed the seed of all three religions we’ve discussed, and that they all three acknowledge the God of Abraham as THEIR God.
Mankind is the reason for the divergent faiths and religious subsets, or Are we totally?
Jesus told his disciples, “I have other sheep you know not of”
We really don’t know what that means exactly, but it leaves room in my mind that I should tread softly when I tear down someone else’s religious beliefs, and just hold in my heart the one’s I know to be true in my heart.
A fine debate with you Aye, I hope you and all had a great Easter, God bless us all.
Abraham. What God would ask a person to kill their own son? And what man would willing be prepared to do so? If that’s religion then it is outdated and barbarbic.
And with all people who follow the Bible – do they take it literally? Or do they pick and choose? Because they are some pretty bizarre and outdated stuff in there.
Finally why does it seem to be Christians who are the first to judge? I thought they weren’t supposed to do that.
The wisest thing the founders of the US did was to keep God out. I hope one day science and rationality will replace ignorance and belief.
Gaffa, Christians can judge, why wouldn’t we? Of course we are /not/ judge. Big difference. The world capitalizes on 2 concepts from the bible: God is love and Christians shouldn’t judge. Under those umbrellas all secular arguments can be made. If I say Jesus is the only way, the world responds with “but God is love.” I can say, ‘marriage should only be between a man and a woman’, and the world responds with “how dare you judge us”. See the catch? Maybe not… Anyway, you may want to review your facts about how the U.S. was founded. I think you have some soul searching to do my friend.
Moose…
All your arguments stem from ‘a common ancestry’ and the whole ‘if I believe it, its true’ scenarios. You cannot make a theological argument in support of all three religions (you listed) as being ‘Gods people’. And lets be real, we’re talking about salvation here. Who enters heaven, who doesn’t. Who God is with, who God is not with.
I’ll make this simple, you mentioned you were a Christian. A Christian believes that Jesus Christ is the messiah, the one that Genesis,Isiah, psalms, Hosea etc.. all proclaim. As C.S. Lewis said: either you believe Jesus was a liar, a lunatic, or Lord (who He said He was). There is no fourth camp, “a prophet/good teacher that morally taught some groovy stuff”. In fact Jesus Himself said, “no one comes to the Father except through ME” and also “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Jesus also said that He came to the Jews first, the gentiles second. Guess what? Followers of Islam would have been considered gentile (which weren’t even around yet). The Jews are Gods people, but that was the problem Jesus had… He came to them first and they rejected Him. Will some Jews go to hell? Absolutely. Does God love His people? Absolutely. People that fail to correlate these two concepts, fail to understand how Holy He is. When God visited Isaiah in the temple, Isaiah said, “I am an unclean man and live among an unclean people”. Just the presence of God made Isaiah realize how unholy he is, and not even that, He /lives/ among unholy people. Why would he care about that? Every time God arrives, people all of a sudden gain eternal perspective. It isn’t until we are dipped in the Koolaid of our society that we start to see things coated red/cyanide in color.
With that said Christianity, Judaism, and Islam may all extend from a common ancestry, but are not all correct at the same time. 2+2 doesn’t equal 4,5,and 6 just because they all extend their roots from being an integer. It is safe to believe that everyone is right at the same time. Moral abstraction and relative truth are also seeker friendly ways of saying, “I care more about agreeing with you than telling you the truth.” Intolerance now has come to mean, any Christian that stands up for what they believe. That is good news to me! Christ said, “Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division.” Quoting wikipedia and basing all your beliefs off of a couple versuses might prove hazzardous to your theology. However this is where I am /not/ able to judge. God knows your soul, your relationship to Him, for it is by grace that we are saved not our works. Know any other religion that fits that? Islam doesn’t, that is for sure.
@GaffaUK:
There are so many glittering jewels and delicious tidbits in your post, I’m unsure where to begin.
Before I dive in, let me ask a question:
Are you a Christian Gaffa?
No, the term “Separation of Church and State” is not actually in the Constitution. The phrase was coined by Thomas Jefferson, referring to the Establishment Claus of the First Amendment.
This thread illustrates why the Founding Fathers were so wise. While it’s true that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all rooted in the story of Abraham, I think we all agree that they are different religions.
But it’s all really a moot point, isn’t it? In the USA, we are all free to believe what our own hearts tell us is so. This includes non Abrahamic religions, as well. My own circle of friends, acquaintances, and co-workers include Jews, Christians (from Catholics to Mormons), Muslims, Buddhist, Wiccans, Unitarians, atheist, agnostics, and even some Christian Scientists. I’m sure there are some Hindus, but I’m not aware of them.
I feel personally enriched being surrounded by those of different faiths, and I believe that America is as well. And I’m glad that our Constitution allows for such diversity.
I once had a co-worker who began dictating to me how I was to behave, according to his religion. I said to him, “I completely respect your faith, and will always completely support your expression of it and give you whatever you need to do so, but I am not of the same faith and am not bound to the same rules as you are. I believe something different, and expect the same respect and support from you.”
My co-worker agreed, and we never had a problem thereafter.
http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html
Aye: I hear you.. It was glistening (as you said) with a lot of ‘information’
“Gaffa, Christians can judge, why wouldn’t we? Of course we are /not/ judge. Big difference. The world capitalizes on 2 concepts from the bible: God is love and Christians shouldn’t judge”
Liam,
These days, merely having an opinion is referred to as being judgemental. Don’t let the left redefine us out of the arena.
@Liam09
It’s amazing how unclear and contradictory the Bible is and how people love to interpret the Bible as they see fit. However ‘Thou shalt not Judge’ – ‘and Let he who is without sin cast the first stone’ seems pretty clear to me and ignored by a lot of Christians. If they believe their handbook of salvation – then they should stop being judgemental and leave that to their imaginary friend. You SHOULD do this – you SHOULDN’T do that, doing that is a SIN etc – is more than giving an opinion – that is being judgemental.
So you really believe the US was founded and enshrined by Christianity? Did the founding father forget to add that in the paperwork?
@Aye
Born ‘loosely’ into C of E. Consider myself agnostic bordering on atheist. So are you a Christian and do you take evey aspect of the Bible literally or do you pick and choose?
Its only clear because you wish to stop reading the passage. Let me finish the passage for you.
matthew 7:1,2 Do not judge, unless you are willing to be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged and by your standard of measure it will be measured to you. keep reading vs,3,4 and then vs 5 sums up the passage:
you hypocrite! first take the log out of your eye, and then YOU WILL SEE CLEARLY TO TAKE THE SPECK OUT OF YOUR BROTHER”s EYE.
This isn’t a prohibition against judging! Its showing the correct way to do it!
Either you are ignorant or just being intelectually dishonest to prove a point that you think should be the meaning in spite of the facts. You don’t approach scripture openly seeking the truth, but rather to prove your point dishonestly. Don’t feel bad, millions of people like you quote this scripture to christians and have done so for many many years. If you say something enough, its becomes truth for the blind.
and by the way, the stone throwing reference is not even to point. It didn’t say he who is without sin , be the first to judge. This was about stoning. Even Jesus after they left judged the women’s immorality, he just didn’t condemn her. Once again, you must have lost you reading comprehension brain cell sometime in the past.
@GaffaUK:
Yes, Gaffa, I am a Christian.
Yes, I take the Bible literally. It is my belief that the Bible is God’s divinely inspired, inerrant, unchanging word. No, I don’t pick and choose.
The Bible is a complex collection of books recorded by a variety of different people over a long period of time, yet the message it contains remains timeless.
Things that appear to be unclear or contradictory become more clear and consistent through context, study, and knowledge. Do I have all of the answers about the meaning of the words of the Bible? No, I don’t. There are some questions that the human mind will never be able to answer.
You have chosen to select two passages without the benefit of context or meaning. You do that because you feel that will support your argument and will support whatever you are trying to achieve.
Unfortunately, the only thing you are proving is your lack of knowledge regarding the Bible and its’ teachings. The Bible is full of instructions to believers that it is our responsibility and duty to judge the actions and beliefs of those we come into contact with. I can post citations if you are interested in knowing where you can find that information.
As to the original point that Nancy was making, yes, this country was founded and established by Christian believers.
Anyone who has read about the Founding Fathers, especially the actual writings of the Founders themselves will quickly learn that they had a very firm foundation of faith. They believed that the hand of Providence provided guidance and protection in the creation of America. These beliefs were nearly universal across the spectrum of the Founders.
The only way anyone will know that however is by the intensive study of the Founders. Each and every time history is written and rewritten the truth becomes more and more difficult to find in the pages so going back the actual words of the Founders will tell you what you need to know. Again, I can post volumes of quotes and citations if necessary.
The Founders were very clear that they never intended for the US to be ruled based on an official state religion, and that is a good thing. They also never intended for the US to have an absence of religion. They never intended for God to be banished from the public square.
The Founders were very clear that matters of official religion could be settled by the individual states. In fact, several of the colonies had official state religions.
The US Constitution and the Declaration of Independence do not specifically mention the word God or Jesus but they do mention the Creator and Providence which were terms commonly used to refer to God during that period in history. The state constitutions of all 50 states mention God, so it is simply not possible to say that the US was not founded as a Christian nation.
Now, back to the point that I was discussing with mooseburger yesterday.
@mooseburger:
moose, you made the point that the God of Abraham is the same as Allah. I pointed out that that cannot be true because the characteristics of the two are diametrically opposed to one another.
Using the characteristics contained in the Bible and the Koran, please show me how Yahweh and Allah are the same.
There is no disagreement that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are three different religions.
You cannot argue, however, that the three religions share the same deity when the deity of Islam is provably different.
@liam09:
liam,
Thank you for your post.
It was a worthy read.
I do have to ask you though, should the sentence I quoted above read “It is not safe’?
Gaffa, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are from the UK and learned some messed up version of /our/ history. There is no doubt – none whatsoever – that our foundation was based upon a Judeo–Christian centered democracy. There is a difference between a Christian nation and a nation founded upon those beliefs. You will be very hard pressed to find anyone of the founding fathers that were not sold out believers. Why is there a system of checks and balances? Well our founding fathers (being Christian) knew that man was sinful and needed accountability. I could continue, but I get the feeling I am wasting my time…
As far as defending my faith against someone like you, its easy: until God opens your eyes, you will always live in darkness. I am not saying anything in context of your intelligence, but in terms of your comprehension. I know this for a fact as I did not grow up Christian, in fact, I went far down the wrong road before I ever knew Christ. The world mocks Him, and so do you – so not much has changed in 2000 years. Lots of people have come and gone saying they were[are] the messiah, but who remembers them? I hope you are right though. Seems like you are gambling indiscriminately with an issue that could be very serious if you are wrong. All at the cost of sounding spiritually and morally ‘awakened’. We’ve all seen it before. Its boring. Don’t play games with your soul my friend.
You’re whole:
“You SHOULD do this – you SHOULDN’T do that, doing that is a SIN etc – is more than giving an opinion – that is being judgemental.”
Is it really? So when your parents said, “don’t punch your brother” you responded with “why are you always judging me!”… ah- and it all comes together. No offense, but your arguments are very lose and full of fallacies. You should think a little harder about what you are trying to say before you say it. Maybe start with an outline. Roman numeral one…
Aye:
I saw that too.. I do mean [in a worldly way] “It is safe to believe everyone is right”.. in other words if we all believe that everyone else is right, you never put yourself in the situation of stepping on someone elses shoes. Everyone always gets to agree [if not just to agree to disagree.. whatever that /really/ means]… rediculous of course.
ALSO very nice post and a very well thought out answer. I think you hit the nail on head with the ‘not knowing all the answers’ part – I think it is the /worlds/ intention to know everything. To reach Nirvana or an ultimate place of Zen where everything makes sense. Its like that in the religion called science and just about every other religion as well. You have to do XYZ to get XYZ, you mix a lot of primordial ooze, some electricity, some carbon and other fundamental elements together and wa-la, you get single cell organisms. Forget irreducible complexity, its just there and science said so. Where did all the basic elements come from [answer from scientific community]- ok where did those elements/energy come from [and on..]. Don’t ask, its science for petes sake. It will hear you and track you down, and cast some reverse-evolution on your booty.
@Nancy Morgan: Great reminder and also a really great blog you have going on. Think I need to subscribe!
@Thomas
Matthew 7:1-5
Luke 6:37
Yes – so don’t judge me until you are perfect. lol. Until you are then you can judge away. I take by your crude child-like personal attack about me apparently losing a comprehension brain cell rather than debating on a more pleasant intellectual level as your other Christians (my presumption) on here that you have a pretty big log jammed in your eye.
Yet…..
John 7:24
1 Corinthians 5:9-13
Elsewhere the Bible says you can judge. I hope you haven’t eaten with a sexually immoral person before! Personal question – have you ever had pre-marital sex? Or is the log rammed in your eye making it hard for you you to remember and be honest? But that’s ok – the best bit about Christianity is you can sin as much as you want – as long as you ask for forgiveness afterwards:)
John 8:7
Pretty thin line between condemning and judging. Still if you want to take it literally and ignore the blatant message then I guess you are free to judge what you like (if you are without sin)- but just don’t stone prostitutes. Do you therefore take all Biblical reference literally – or do you pick and choose?
@Aye
Okay so do you agree with the below then?
Kill children if God tells you?
Kill those who believe in other religions?
Zechariah 13:3
Genocide?
Deuteronomy 7:1
God punishing innocent women and killing babies for the sins of others?
2 Samuel 12:11-14
Slave beating?
Exodus 21:20-21
Women forced to marry rapists?
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Murder gay people?
Leviticus 20:13
Death for adultery?
Death for cursing parents?
Show me your knowledge and let me know how this is relevant or acceptable in the 21st Century. If you dismiss these – then who is to choose what is relevant and what is not relevant anymore?
@GaffaUK:
Once again you demonstrate your basic ignorance and misunderstanding of the Bible.
You also demonstrate a disturbing willingness to take selected passages out of context and then mischaracterize their meaning.
You miss the fact that in the Old Testament the children of Israel were held to the standards of Jewish law.
You miss the fact that Christ satisfied the requirements of the law so the things that you listed are now irrelevant for those who are believers in Christ.
Study up Gaffa. You just might learn something.
@Aye
1. Well please explain those meanings if I am taking them out of context.
2. So for all those human beings at least before Jesus have to live under these terrible laws as sanctioned by God? Their only fault was to be born at that time? What sort of deity treats humans like dirt and then suddenly after hundreds of years decides to rebrand? (btw are you one of those who believes the Earth is under 10000 years old?)
3. So do you condemn the Old Testament as being barbaric? Why don’t Christians throw that away if it has no relevance?
So what did Jesus have to saw about the Law and the Prophets…
Matthew 5:17-20
4. Oh please let me know how that is out of context….
GaffaUK… like Aye said, /you/ have no understanding of what you are writing. My case and point is this: I would say I know scripture/theology/world religions fairly well. You submitted your first post at 7:55 pm and another (longer one) at 8:19 pm. Now either you were able to do an exhaustive cross reference of passages that ‘bother’ you in under 30 minutes, or you simply searched google for some key words, said ‘yeah, this site makes some good points to me’, copy/pasted, and then commented on each one. For one) how unoriginal. Two) it just shows that you have little to no knowledge of your subject, and also you have little to no respect for those people that you agree with (by taking /their/ work). How can honest discussion even start from that?
Let me show you how from the very beginning, that you have no clue what you are talking about.
You (or whatever source you copied) said:
“Kill children if God tells you?
1 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Consecrate to Me all the firstborn, whatever opens the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and beast; it is Mine.”
Exodus 13.1”
I suppose you or your online reference took the word ‘Consecrate’ to mean ‘kill’? It means to set apart or make holy – To declare or set apart as sacred (from the dictionary). How about looking up what ‘the big words mean’ before you decide to go on a rampage of mis-knowledge and show everyone your true colors.
The rest of your examples fall right in line with the very first one you posted, demonstrating your complete lack of knowledge of anything biblical. So, with that said, why would you require Aye to do an hour of work refuting your poor/misquoted/not understood examples, for your less than 20 minutes of internet google’ing? I also knew it wasn’t /your/ work by your writing. When /you/ write, it sounds uneducated and childish. When you copy/paste it sounds like a 6th grader wrote it (instead of 3rd). If you want to have a real discussion, please try to do that. If not, you are simply trying to make a point no one really cares about.
@liam09
Yawn…How typically patronising.
I don’t claim to have read the Bible…I can’t be bothered to read such gibberish. Just have a think about what you have written and consider that you are writing on a forum. You are surrounded by cut and paste comments. Is this suddenly invalid? Have you EVER done this? The quotes I have researched – they are genuine bible quotes. The comments are my own. Do those here who are critical of the Koran – ever read the Koran? Have you read all of Darwin’s Origin of the Species. Please let me know if you are perfect – otherwise you are hyprocrite and not one to set what is correct and what is not.
I am genuinely puzzled why the Bible contains (what appears to be) such vile comments. And I am genuinely interested in having a healthy debate. I pretty sure no one is going to convert me BUT I am open to see if people can give good logical context rather than poor interpretations. And I pretty sure I’m not the only one who wonders how Christians can justify such statements.
Okay let’s take Exodus 13.1-16
Oh this is a copy paste job from the New King James Version from http://www.biblegateway.com.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2013%20;&version=50;
Apologies if I didn’t go out buy a bible and type that passage out for you but couldn’t be bothered. lol
Anyway – read it and tell me there isn’t clearly overtones of sacrifice – even in the barbaric ritual sense of offering children to God?
And secondly what did the innocent first born children of the Egyptians have to die?
How dull – again so defensively you have to attack the debater rather than focus purely on the legit debate.
Oh please open my eyes oh holy one – thou who knowest so much.
He said the comments were out of context – I fail to see how so many quotes could be out of context. So I asked him to let me know. He is free to check or to google himself.
Ummm – the quotes are from the Bible – the comments are my own. Your comments seem contradictory.
If I did a copy and paste on comments which I didn’t write myself whilst weren’t attributed to bible quotes then you can easily catch me out by doing a search and see if anything comes up. Sherlock.
If you don’t care – how about not replying…
Thanks for the useless insults dumbass – they really belong in the playground hypocrite;)
Gaff gaff gaff, I will respond if you want to have a healthy discussion.
I have looked at the verse more than I can count. You are the one that has to read it again. I understand the history, context, and meaning of it. For you, its like learning on the job. I proved you wrong, and you want me to go back and ‘re-read’ under your preconditions? Thats funny. The fact is this, no Jew or Christian or Muslim would agree with your interpretation of what you are suggesting. Plus, I am sorry if you are offended by me saying that you write at the 6th grade level, but that was my opinion of all the posts I have seen from /you/ writing. Not copy/pasting. Sorry if they were some bad samples, and you are more intelligent than the internet can make people look.
By the way, your stealing of other peoples work is not a case of ‘copy and paste’. There is such thing as intellectual property or purely stealing other peoples research, even if it is on the net for free. You admitted yourself that you have never read the bible. Why read such nonsense – correct? So what authority or basis do you come with as to command anyone’s respect of your opinion?
In other words if you admittedly have no comprehension of the bible or old testament law or history, how were you able to write out two substantial posts in less than 30 minutes? I know you didn’t read themes, cross reference scripture, and then comment upon it. So, if it is someone else’s work, are you willing to vouch for it? Why not actually learn something than regurgitate another persons opinion? Maybe its that you don’t want to learn, but you would rather benefit from the feeling of being intellectually superior to another person (using someone else’s work). It doesn’t make sense to me.
I have read Origin of Species several times. I have also read the Koran in college. No I am not perfect, but I also don’t try to speak about things that I am absolutely ignorant of (not calling you stupid here, just ignorant. There is a difference). For example, to disprove Aye about Jesus not fulfilling the law (thus we have to live by the ten commandments) you picked one of the primary teachings (Matthew 5:17-20) that shows Jesus /is/ the fulfillment of the law. You think He is telling everyone that if they don’t follow the 10 commandments, they will go to hell or be the least in the kingdom of heaven. The fact is, if you don’t follow the /whole/ law perfectly, you are guilty of breaking every part of it.
That is where grace comes into play. No other faith says, it is by /grace/ you are saved, and this is not of yourselves. Old law required certain sacrifices for atonement. And as far as God killing the first born of all the Egyptian children, I think again, you fail to understand one thing… we are not worthy and not capable of understanding Gods ways. If you are the creator of clay, and you decide to destroy it, turn it into something else, would that make it wrong? Obviously you believe in evolution, why don’t you complain about black widows eating their mates after mating (or the other numerous species)… seems pretty unfair to me. Or if I found you in real life, since I am bigger than you, there is no problem with me beating you and taking all your stuff. Whats wrong with that? Its survival of the fittest correct? You have something I need to survive, I take it /to/ survive. You don’t find anything wrong with that? [just bantering, don’t take it personal]. Or is it just the way things are? There seems to be a disconnect in logic here.
When God saves, he saves under no preconditions. He wants you as you are, and there is nothing you can add or subtract from His salvation. Its like you pulling a kid out of a river. Either the kid can swim against the current and get out (which he can’t) or you can pull him out. You effectively gave him a gift of life that he did not earn and cannot modify. Jesus disliked the Pharisees of his day. They made God unapproachable for the people He loves, and burdened them with the letter of the law. God is good; I hope you find that out one day.
Liam
What preconditions did I set? I simply expanded the passage to show the barbaric nature of God
You speak for millions of people? For all those religions – every single person? Wow impressive.
I’m not offended but confused – I type fast which means typos get in and my grammar can be poor at times – but I don’t think my thoughts, writing or intelligence is 6th grade but you are entitled to think what you like. Seems a tangent and a poor attacking tactic to me
Please prove that I am stealing other’s work. Or is that a lazy assumption?
Do you need authority to read the Bible? Isn’t that one of the reasons priests didn’t want the Bible translated from Latin in case the commoners actually read it for themselves? Here’s a metaphor for you Liam – I’m looking for a car – and this salesman shows me this car and I’m no mechanic. I can’t talk about the details of the engine etc and I’m not going to read a 100 page dull manual on it. However I will listen to the salesman and I will do some research and I will ask some awkward questions. If I find that the brakes are considered ropey then I will enquire about that and see if the salesman can explain or simply brush that aside saying what do I know about cars. If he does the latter then I consider that a poor salesman as they are becoming defensive, arrogant and seemingly wanting to hide things with their car. They lose the sale. I am shopping for God – probably not – but like most humans I am fascinated by why we here etc questions and I debate as to why some have this urge to utterly believe hook, line and sinker from such books as the Bible, Koran etc and try to spread it.
Again reiteration of the same point. The opinions are my own. If I did a essay on poets and someone’s points me to a nice poem by Keats then I have a look at the poem myself and make my own view and in my essay I quote Keats and put my view on why I found the poem pleasant – if I did. You don’t quote the person or search engine. I am not trying to be intellectual superior to you but I am genuinely fascinated. Or maybe my last sentence was copied from somewhere. You seem quite obsessed.
I don’t think I am ignorant of Christianity. Maybe I don’t know as much as you seem to claim but I also reckon I am thinking it through a lot more than you are if you accept seemingly without question and would rather spend time criticising me personally.
Exactly – how bizarre is that?!
Very convenient for all those living when Jesus said this and for all of us since. Shame about all the other human beings who lived before Jesus. So you reckon the Earth is less than 10,000 years old?
Excellent – this is where it gets interesting. I have to believe in this violent & mysterious God – because I’m not worthy? That sounds like we are all ignorant then. Why should I join such a religion which espouses such views?
Absolutely. I should worship such a God through fear? And I’m supposed to love this killer and not question what sort of world has this?
Okay you are compared God to the animals?! Great. Animals mainly kill to eat. Is that fair? No. Yet they don’t set themselves up to be the creator of all things and expect us to obey and worship them. The reason, despite wars and violence, is that most people don’t go round beating others up is because we have civilised ourselves with a certain degree of order and law. People don’t (on the whole as a majority) commit random violence as there is no reward but possible consequence. Your God is like a badly behaved child beating an ant-hill with a big stick – killing ants randomly and letting others live on a whim. If that means I’m going to hell for my opinions then so be it – but that’s no God for me – and I don’t see compelling evidence for such a God.
I thought the precondition is that you got to go through Christ and believe in God etc.
Yeah free will and not free will – depends on how God feels doesn’t it? Some people he (apparently) helps – like those crossing the Red Sea and others – like those Christians who get killed in wars he doesn’t lift a finger. Pretty random.
No this God isn’t good. Those of whom follow him seem to be afraid to question such a fable and use logic. I wonder if Constantine’s wife wasn’t Christian whether Christianity would be as big as it would be today. (btw – I couldn’t remember the Roman Emperor’s name for a moment – so I went to Wikipedia and typed in Christainity and read under History and found out what I knew but had forgotten. As I know you are very concerned about me listing how I find my research – irrespective whether it is a valid point or not). I guess you wold believe it was the will of God. Of course if God was so great why are there Muslims, and Hindu and atheists? Of course they aren’t listening to his message which they are free to do – but children remain trapped in the religion they are born into. So God isn’t fair or reasonable – but you see as him as some clay-making person who can squash us when he wants. Meanwhile I see the universe as being beautiful and amazing without us having to invent a God to explain it to our poor evolving brains.
Wow, seems you have it all figured out don’t you? You’re post is a little long to refute most of the non-sense that you are putting forward. Just as an example of how this would completely waste my time, you use the analogy of a car salesman and buying a car. You said earlier that you would not read such nonsense [the bible]. That instead of reading a ‘dull 100 page manual on the car’ you would just ask the salesman some questions. Well, I could take apart your analogy piece-by-piece and show you that you are the typical ignorant consumer (not stupid) that buys junk based on others opinions and complains about it later, but that would just be ad nauseum – oh well, here goes.
If you have no basis for your knowledge, again, how do you know what is truth and what is not? Oh wait, if he ‘brushes the question to the side’… nice basis. Not sure if you realize or not, but your analogies are pretty poor my friend. Life isn’t all about /your/ feelings and whether or not /you/ think things are fair or unfair. Justice and Truth exist outside your bubble of relativism and narcissism. This also goes along with your comment on animals:
[You]
“Animals mainly kill to eat. Is that fair? No”
Really? That’s not fair? Coming from an evolutionist? What makes it unfair? What is fair? Where does it come from? At what point did things become fair and unfair? Why is fairness anywhere on the scale of importance? Is complaining about fairness the battlecry of the week? If so, why are you still around (speaking purely in evolutionary terms)?
Sounds like you are a bleeding heart liberal, with science as your god, and feelings your mantle-piece. Seriously, I laughed out loud (I LOL’ed) when I read that. You can be pretty funny along with your ignorance. I didn’t call you stupid, just ignorant 😉
I would not compare ‘shopping for a car’ with ‘shopping for god’. Sounds a little pretentious to me. Scholars, philosophers, academia etc.. have battled with these questions for a long time. Man, if only they knew it was just like buying a car! I say become knowledgable about what you are talking about (read up etc) and you say, “I don’t need to, I will just ask some questions to whomever the salesman is (and yes, I get ‘the salesman’) and go from there”. If it feels good, great! If not, you move on. I really don’t care whether or not you wanted to read into your analogy. Again, thinking before hand would help you out tremendously.
And maybe that is the problem, you are part of the consumer based mentality. Everything you wrote above was all based on you, why you don’t think it is fair, and that god is a big bully with a stick. Maybe there is a larger picture that you fail to grasp because you look in the mirror so often. I read parts of your blog, and the same thing exists there, at the heart, you sound like a sad individual. Please don’t try to refute me here, as I really am not going to check up on this post, but I know for a fact you are sad. There are ways out my friend.
@Liam
Ah – as patronising as ever eh Liam?
Again you fail to answer my genuine questions without having to personally attack me. Keep casting that stone. I wonder what Jesus would make of your spiteful little attacks? btw I’m very happy. I judge this invisible God of yours by his standards – that he is supposed to just and good and full of love. This is patently false. Animals and evolution don’t make that claim – so don’t be ignorant. No doubt you want to believe the world is 6000 years old and dinosaurs are Jesus horses etc – then go ahead – keep deluding yourself and keeping living that lie. Funny how the Bible was supposedly written by various people – often tens, hundreds of years later. How did Moses know what happened in the Garden of Eden? Don’t tell me God told him. lol. Of course you won’t be reading this as you’ve ran out of answers, got stumped and ran away like a little kid.
There he goes again, sigh.
http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=46667
The name of Jesus was covered up by painted black plywood so as not to offend……someone.
There’s a verse for that too, it would be impossible to take it out of context.
Not stumped Gaff. Just too smart for you to comprehend. Kidding. But seriously, you really don’t understand most of what you write. You are antagonistic and don’t even know what you stand for! Ha, how can you tell me anything? Hey man, you believe in ghosts? Do they exist? Yes or no? How does that fit into evolution? Is it aliens? Is it a persons imagination? Is there real evil in this world? I will share something with you (even though you don’t deserve it)… before I was a Christian, I was far on the other side. I went to a party one time with some friends. We were drinking and talking when we decided to get into a conversation about god. One person I didn’t know, in the middle of our discussion about god, lifted up his shirt to expose his stomach where in front of us this writing started to appear. It was like someone with long finger nails started to scratch into his body a language none of us knew (after talking later – we all recognized what looked like letters/sentence). I suppose that was some kind of sickness? Maybe a flesh eating disease that ate away at his stomach?
Anyway, your foolishness will only last for so long. You aren’t as smart as you think you are, and your logic is very juvenile. I will not answer you again, as it is a waste of my time. We all will find out Jesus is King. Just depends which way.
Keep it real bro
@ Liam
Ah you see Liam – I was reading your post and you ask some interesting thoughtful questions which I was going to reply to – and even your digs at me were minimal (your posts seem to alternate from being rude to thoughtful). And your personal experience reminded me of something I was going to share.
But then reading your second paragraph – I thought why bother as saying ‘foolishness’, ‘juvenile’ etc – is petty and well hypocritically juvenile tbh. Which is a shame as you seem an interesting person. I guess if someone questions your faith then you get aggressive and over defensive. I try to keep debate civil and I get rude when I’m treated rudely. Besides you’re not going to answer again (of course this thread has to end sometime but being huffy is immature) especially when you already threatened that…
Anyway why don’t you try to keep to that this time – or better conduct a debate without personal attacks. We can agree to disagree you know.
Apparently the great one does not know his federal law.
The words became our nation’s motto in 1956 when Congress made it a federal law. (See United States Code at 36 U.S.C. 302)
It would take an Act of Congress to have the motto changed, and I pray to GOD that does not happen!
http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t33t36+1644+0++%28%29%20%20AND%20%28%2836%29%20ADJ%20USC%29%3ACITE%20AND%20%28USC%20w%2F10%20%28302%29%29%3ACITE%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20
What happens if a President doesn’t believe in God?