David Bernstein at The Volokh Conspiracy absolutely annihilated the sock puppet, aka Glenn Greenwald, in this post. Glenn was whining, as most of the pro-terrorist left is, that Israel is being mean and not playing by the rules when they attack hundreds of targets because Hamas sent a few rockets in:
I can ask, rhetorically (though Greenwald is free to answer): when a terrorist entity controls territory bordering that of a sovereign nation, and indiscriminately lobs rockets into that nation’s territory, terrifying the civilian population and making normal life unlivable, what is a proportionate response?
Israel has engaged in pinpoint targeting of military facilities operated by said terrorist entities, and has gone so far as to send messages in Arabic to residents of Gaza, warning them that if they allow their homes or businesses are sheltering Hamas weaponry, they will be destroyed. Even according to Palestinian sources, the overwhelming majority of victims of Israeli bombs thus far have been Hamas fighters. This is perhaps the least extreme response that any sovereign nation faced with an analogous situation has ever engaged in. Cf. Russia in Chechnya.
Greenwald’s real problem, I surmise, is that he thinks that Israel’s response is “disproportionate” not because its disproportionate relative to Hamas’s military actions and Israel’s military objectives compared to the civilian damaged inflicted (more or less the international law definition of proportionality), but because he believes that Israel is primarily to blame for the situation in Gaza, and therefore any suffering inflicted on Gaza’s civilians is primarily Israel’s fault. Hence his observation about Israel’s blockade of Gaza, which is not at all relevant to whether Israel’s response to the rocket fire is “proportionate,” but rather to whether Israel is morally at fault in general.
But by putting the issue in terms of the “proportionality” of Israel’s response, Greenwald (and others) are obscuring their real argument, which is that Israel is not entitled to act in self-defense because no matter how many rockets are launched into Israeli territory, Israel is ultimately the aggressor in the Gaza situation.
I find that argument hopeless naive, and, in fact, counterfactual. Let’s start with the fact that the blockade was a response to Hamas’s actions against Israel, not vice versa. (If Hamas had been a peace-loving entity, and Israel had nevertheless blockaded its territory, and I had attacked Hamas’s military response as “wildly disproportionate”, then Greenwald’s counter-offer of a trip to Gaza would make sense). Now imagine for a moment that Hamas announced, sincerely, that its goal was no longer to annihilate Israel, but to establish a peaceful Islamic democracy that was willing to work with Israel and the Palestinian Authority to achieve a lasting agreement with Israel, and then acted on that announcement by ceasing all violence aimed at Israel and offering to commence negotiations immediately. Is there any doubt that the blockade would end forthwith? And, for that matter, that Israel would happily cooperate with a peaceful Hamas and the international community to return Gaza to the incredible rates of economic growth (and beyond) it achieved under the first 20 years of the “brutal occupation”? Hamas, however, is not interested in a peaceful settlement with Israel, and, while its leaders hide in underground bunkers, is perfectly willing to fight Israel to the last Palestinian civilian.
So, to sum up, let’s rephrase Greenwald’s position: “I think that Israel is not entitled to cause any casualties, civilian or otherwise, in Gaza, because Israel bears the primary, indeed, almost the entire, responsibility for the conflict it is facing with Hamas. Therefore, Israeli civilians living in the range of Hamas rockets must simply bear with it until their government adopts more enlightened policies that will magically lead Hamas to prefer to live in peace with Israel.
To people like Greenwald Israel has no right to protect their nation because hell, they shouldn’t have a nation anyways. If Israel would just do the world a favor and cease to exist then we could get back to flying kites and dancing in the streets.
As far as this proportional crapola goes, since when did the warfare rulebook come out saying that any attack must be proportional in size? If a nation is justified in using violence, as Israel most certainly is, then you don’t send in a few missile strikes ala Bill Clinton, but send in as much firepower as possible to end the conflict quickly. To do anything else is just ineffective, as we found out during the 90’s and Clinton’s useless attacks that made us look more like a paper tiger then anything else.
Hamas proclaims daily that they will use violence to ensure the destruction of Israel, and lobs rocket after rocket into the nation that they border, and Israel is just supposed to send in a few missiles in return?
Puhlease.
Wordsmith quoted Bruce Lee in a comment which quickly and efficiently spells out what the reality of warfare really is:
“Let your opponent graze your skin as you smash into his flesh. Let him smash into your flesh while you break his bones. Let him break your bones as you take his life.”
But to Greenwald and the left Israel should play pattycake with Hamas as Hamas works to wipe Israel off the face of the map.
See author page
Leftists are hopeless. Israel is a sovereign country and Israelis are decent people who respect democracy and their goal is to live peacefully. They cherish life and they are entitled to defend their citizen. Their neighbours are brutal terrorists that want to destroy them. They do not value life and they are ready to die like martyrs to quench their hate for Jews.
Palestinians could have had their country as early as 1948. But they didn’t want a country, they wanted to destroy Israel. They still do. So therefore, they will never have a country of their own. But they are the only ones to blame.
Israel has the best air force in the world; the dexterity of their pilots is amazing. They can really do precise surgical strikes and minimize the collateral damages. And this is what they are doing right now:
“Most of the dead were from the Hamas security forces, and Israel’s military intelligence chief said Hamas’ ability to fire rockets had been reduced by 50 percent. Indeed, Hamas rocket fire dropped off sharply, from more than 130 on Saturday (local time) to just over 20 on Sunday. Early today, Israeli aircraft bombed the Islamic University and government compound in Gaza City, centres of Hamas power. Other targets were a guest palace used by the Hamas government and the house next to Gaza Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh’s home in a refugee camp next to Gaza City. In the most dramatic attacks yesterday, warplanes struck dozens of smuggling tunnels under the Gaza-Egypt border, cutting off a lifeline that had supplied Hamas with weapons and Gaza with commercial goods. Earlier, warplanes dropped three bombs on one of Hamas’ main security compounds in Gaza City, including a prison.”
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,24851860-912,00.html
I hope and pray that no one puts an end to the Israeli attack before it finishes shattering all of the terrorists. Countries and UN who want this attack to stop are on the terrorist’s side.
Greenwald reponds:
The “disproportionate force” line of argument just drives me nuts.
As a law enforcement officer, Curt, is it preferrable that when taking down a suspect, you send in one officer to do the job; or is it more desirable when possible to tackle and cuff the suspect using overwhelming and superior force of numbers?
Of course, a lefty will probably argue that disproportionate force would be the officers beating the living tar out of the suspect. But that’s not the analogy that applies to Israel’s use of force, as David Bernstein illustrates. Israel has always ever shown great restraint.
When Israel weathered rocket attacks, unanswered, where was the public outcry about the disproportionate use of force by Hamas? What the hell is a proportionate response even supposed to look like from Israel? How does that exactly work, operationally?
It’s the very act of “proportional response” that perpetuates the “cycle of violence”. “Disproportionate force” against the Japanese, whose culture celebrated a mentality and spirit of “no surrender” and fighting to the death, is what brought the war to an end. Snuff out the enemy’s will to fight, crush their spirit with an overwhelming show of force…so ends the “cycle of violence”.
The attitude expressed in the Bruce Lee quote is about deterrence…..”don’t tread on me”, “don’t f— with me”, and you get to keep your life; and we both get to live in tolerance and go our separate ways in peace.
Poor little “simply done”. No wonder you are so dumb, reading article with such nonsense leftist arguments.
Since the creation of Israel, Palestinian’s obsession was to destroy that country instead of creating two countries. Since 1948 Palestinians provokes Israel daily. All they have to do is to stop their attacks and they will have a country of their own and live happily and in peace. But they do not want a country, they want to destroy Israel. They are the only ones to blame for their misery, they could end it in a second if they were willing to let go of their hater. I have no pity for these people; they merit living the way they are living right now.
Odd, I always thought that you won a war by killing more of them than they kill of you… hopefully a very disproportionate number!
Even Star Trek covered this 30 years ago 🙂
Hamas is only getting back the rockets they’ve fired over the years, only these are precisely targeted, instead of being randomly popped into civilian areas.
There’s a reason that Egypt has been asked three times over the years to take back sovereignty over the Gaza Strip that they lost in the 1967 war, and have three times refused. They don’t want these people. Note how the Egyptians are holding hard on the western border, and collaborating with the Israelis on border control. There’s a longstanding peace treaty in effect, after all.
For all these claims of “we want our lands back”, please investigate the Ottoman Empire’s Land Registration Act of 1858. This controls all land titles in that part of the world. Those who perfected a title then have a land claim. Land ownership goes to the individual everywhere (unless messed with).
Remember, 20% of the population of Israel is Arab. 20% of the Knesset is Arab Israeli.
Both Egypt and Jordan have longstanding well-settled peace treaties with Israel. The House of Saud has a tacit peace with Israel.
Do I have a dog in this fight? No. I’m an American of Scottish ancestry. But these facts need to be known.
Enough. Check out the Land Registration Act of 1858.
If Hamas was concerned with the lives of “the children” they would actively negotiate for peace, instead they instigate violence by lobbing rockets into Israel to terrorize and disrupt the peace. Hamas is well aware of Israel’s military strength, they are well aware of Israel’s intel yet they put their people and “the children” in the cross hairs and the world whines about disproportianality blaming Israel. While many in the world points the finger of blame at Israel, Abbas it telling *Hamas* to knock it off so their own government is against them, if they were sane, they’d listen to him.
This is nothing but derangement syndrome on steroids, the actions of Hamas is based on hate. It’s Hamas that is responsible for the consequences they face today. Part of the disproportionate number of deaths is due to the terrorists killing themselves. They are rage crazy idiots that aren’t capable of operating their rockets, again putting themselves and those in close proximity at risk. Israel has a trained military, it’s there to protect their country, it’s doing it’s job. Case closed.
One more thought, if I took pot shots at the little elderly folk in my neighborhood, I know a SWAT team would be showing up, not for tea.
Simple minded, greenwald is a bigger joke than even you. Google Greenwald and sock puppet and see what you get.
From Greenwad’s response..
uh… what lesson would that be? Could it be the sock puppet empathizes with the misery of the minority Sunni/Saddam supporters who are disgruntled they can no longer run roughshod over the majority population under a despot? Instead they flee, or fight, because they cannot live with an election’s results.
The Iraqis have had it tough since the deposal of Saddam. But then, starting a country from scratch is no easy endeavor. And frankly, for those that have lived most or all of their lives under tryanny, I think they are to be congratulated for continually stepping up to the plate after jihad movements – bent on trying to start a civil war – assault them with suicide and car bombs, IED’s, etal
For the life of me, I can’t see what idiotic point the bozo is trying to make with “lesson over the last eight years”… The “suffering” of the Iraqis is genuinely a heroic and courageous battle to take control of their country and lives. To equate them as some sort of victims is the chutzpah of insults.
As far as this general argument with “simple” goes… I’d say we exhausted it on the other thread. There will be no “can’t we all just get along” between he/she and I. I just celebrate that simply doesn’t have any responsibilities in deciding our military strategy…. for we would be surely doomed if that were the case.
“For the life of me, I can’t see what idiotic point the bozo is trying to make with “lesson over the last eight years”… ”
Mata, that is “Obama chic” patterned after the “failed policies of the last eight years” he included in allllllll of his stump speaches, press conferences, talk show visits, yada yada. Now no matter what drivel the left mouth pieces spout, by including a negative “last eight years” phrase their audience snaps to attention, agrees, applauds, mimics, etc. They’re like the stoned hippies of the 50’s snapping their fingers in unison whether what was said means a damn thing or not, they’re keen on Obama chic, they are one with “the one.”
Shame on Greenwald! How can any decent person side with the party standing for supremacist religious apartheid and genocide? Undergraduate level research easily uncovers the principles upon which the Islamic Resistance Movement, aka HAMAS, is founded. It is the Gaza branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. A review of their charter and pronouncements in Arab-Muslim mosques, media, and educational systems clearly demonstrates that the most vile hate filled Nazi racist propaganda appears mild in comparison. Their goal of achieving the complete ethnic cleansing of Jews from the Middle East because they are non-Muslims should be repugnant to decent people everywhere. A decent person would take to the soap box to decry the HAMAS disregard for human life and its brainwashing of little children to embrace martyrdom and hatred of Jews. To support HAMAS and oppose Israeli actions to protect its people because HAMAS’ human shields are being harmed does indeed support terrorism and ethnic cleansing.
And the cause célèbre of “occupation?” Greenwald apparently believes the fundamental issue is a land dispute over Israel’s borders. This ignores the timeline and official Arab statements and documents predating the 1967 war. These unashamedly pronounce that the only issue was and still is the existence of a non-Arab Muslim country where they once ruled. Of course, one person’s terrorist can be another person’s freedom fighter but weren’t Arab groups organized with the stated goals of “liberating” Palestine and killing all the Jews before any “occupation” occurred? Even lazy research uncovers documents and public statements to support the actual order of events.
The cry of disproportionate use of force attempts to apply a standard of judgment by which the “righteous” side in a military conflict is determined by which party suffered the most civilian casualties. (Unless they are Jews of course) If so, then the Germans and Japanese during WWII surely were on the moral high ground. What a pity that Israel has elected to protect its civilians while extremist Arabs use theirs as human shields and body count propaganda.
What Israeli concessions would enable it to exist without allocating an extraordinary amount of resources for security? End the “occupation?” Agree to the complete ethnic cleansing of Jews from Arab governed areas? (remove “settlements”) Trade land for peace? Tried that in Gaza and it didn’t work. Tough question.
What concessions by Arab Palestinians would enable them to live without closures, checkpoints, curfews, security barriers, etc., and establish another Arab country in the Middle East? Easy question – Just live up to previous commitments to dismantle terrorist organizations, end incitement and hatred of Jews, and agree to use the billions in foreign aid for development and improved standard of living instead of war and terrorism.