Stanley Kurtz writes in a new article that Wright was just the tip of the iceberg for Obama. Oh sure, he attended his sermons but he also sent a lot of money to education programs and schools that taught almost exclusively the anti-American, Afrocentric, ideology preached by Wright.
John McCain, take note. Obama’s tie to Wright is no longer a purely personal question (if it ever was one) about one man’s choice of his pastor. The fact that Obama funded extremist Afrocentrists who shared Wright’s anti-Americanism means that this is now a matter of public policy, and therefore an entirely legitimate issue in this campaign.
Stanley Kurtz then goes on to detail his findings from the Annenberg documents. Findings such as the fact that the group funded the “South Shore African Village Collaborative.” A thoroughly “Afrocentric” institution that used teacher-training, curriculum advice, and community involvement to improve academic performance in the schools it worked with.
The South Shore African Village Collaborative was deeply involved in the “rites of passage movement,” which started in the 90’s. They set up whole curriculum’s centered around the the “rites of passage” ceremonies.
What exactly is the “rites of passage movement?” Kurtz:
To learn what the rites of passage movement was all about, we can turn to a sympathetic 1992 study published in the Journal of Negro Education by Nsenga Warfield-Coppock. In that article, Warfield-Coppock bemoans the fact that public education in the United States is shaped by “capitalism, competitiveness, racism, sexism and oppression.” According to Warfield-Coppock, these American values “have confused African American people and oriented them toward American definitions of achievement and success and away from traditional African values.” American socialization has “proven to be dysfuntional and genocidal to the African American community,” Warfield-Coppock tells us. The answer is the adolescent rites of passage movement, designed “to provide African American youth with the cultural information and values they would need to counter the potentially detrimental effects of a Eurocentrically oriented society.”
The adolescent rites of passage movement that flowered in the 1990s grew out of the “cultural nationalist” or “Pan-African” thinking popular in radical black circles of the 1960s and 1970s. The attempt to create a virtually separate and intensely anti-American black social world began to take hold in the mid-1980s in small private schools, which carefully guarded the contents of their controversial curricula. Gradually, through external partners like CIESS, the movement spread to a few public schools. Supporters view these programs as “a social and cultural ‘inoculation’ process that facilitates healthy, African-centered development among African American youth and protects them against the ravages of a racist, sexist, capitalist, and oppressive society.”
We know that SSAVC was part of this movement, not only because their Annenberg proposals were filled with Afrocentric themes and references to “rites of passage,” but also because SSAVC’s faculty set up its African-centered curriculum in consultation with some of the most prominent leaders of the “rites of passage movement.” For example, a CIESS teacher conference sponsored a presentation on African-centered curricula by Jacob Carruthers, a particularly controversial Afrocentrist.
Google Carruthers and you will find that the guy is a fanatic who believes the true birthplace of our civilization is ancient Kemet in Egypt.
Carruthers’s key writings are collected in his book, Intellectual Warfare. Reading it is a wild, anti-American ride. In his book, we learn that Carruthers and his like-minded colleagues have formed an organization called the Association for the Study of Classical African Civilizations (ASCAC), which takes as its mission the need to “dismantle the European intellectual campaign to commit historicide against African peoples.” Carruthers includes “African-Americans” within a group he would define as simply “African.” When forced to describe a black person as “American,” Carruthers uses quotation marks, thus indicating that no black person can be American in any authentic sense. According to Carruthers, “The submission to Western civilization and its most outstanding offspring, American civilization, is, in reality, surrender to white supremacy.”
Carruthers’s goal is to use African-centered education to recreate a separatist universe within America, a kind of state-within-a-state. The rites of passage movement is central to the plan.
Even nuttier, Carruthers believes that blacks who have become Americanized were actually raped. They may have been forcibly exposed to American culture but do not need to accept it.
The better option, says Carruthers, is to separate out and relearn the wisdom of Africa’s original Kemetic culture, embodied in the teachings of the ancient wise man, Ptahhotep (an historical figure traditionally identified as the author of a Fifth Dynasty wisdom book). Anything less than re-Africanization threatens the mental, and even physical, genocide of Africans living in an ineradicably white supremacist United States.
Check out the kind of training Carruther’s gave to teachers at his schools:
According to Chicago Annenberg Challenge records, Carruthers’s training session on African-centered curricula for SSAVC teachers was a huge hit: “As a consciousness raising session, it received rave reviews, and has prepared the way for the curriculum readiness survey….” These teacher-training workshops were directly funded by the Chicago Annenberg Challenge. Another sure sign of the ideological cast of SSAVC’s curriculum can be found in Annenberg documents noting that SSAVC students are taught the wisdom of Ptahhotep. Carruthers’s concerns about “menticide” and “genocide” at the hand of America’s white supremacist system seem to be echoed in an SSAVC document that says: “Our children need to understand the historical context of our struggles for liberation from those forces that seek to destroy us.”
So now we know the types of schools and teaching that was funded by Annenberg. But how does this tie into Wright and Obama? Well, take a guess who was given the opportunity to speak at the Trinity Church:
When Jeremiah Wright turned toward African-centered thinking in the late 1980s and early 1990s (the period when, attracted by Wright’s African themes, Barack Obama first became a church member), many prominent thinkers from Carruthers’s Association for the Study of Classical African Civilizations were invited to speak at Trinity United Church of Christ, Carruthers himself included. We hear echoes of Carruthers’s work in Wright’s distinction between “right brained” Africans and “left brained” Europeans, in Wright’s fears of U.S. government-sponsored genocide against American blacks, and in Wright’s embittered attacks on America’s indelibly white-supremacist history. In Wright’s Trumpet Newsmagazine, as in Carruthers’s own writings, blacks are often referred to as “Africans living in the diaspora” rather than as Americans.
When Asa Hillard died, speaker and writer of such books as “Teachings of Ptahhotep: The Oldest Book in the World,” “The Maroon Within Us,” “SBA: The Reawakening of the African Mind,” and “African Power”, Wright delivered the eulogy to a crowd of prominent members of the Carruthers group “Association for the Study of Classical African Civilizations.” He put her picture on the front of his Church’s magazine and a picture of Farrakhan on the back.
Perhaps inadvertently, Wright’s eulogy for Hilliard actually established the fringe nature of his favorite African-centered scholars. In his tribute, Wright stressed how intensely “white Egyptologists recoiled at the very notion of everything Asa taught.” As Wright himself made plain, it seems virtually impossible to find respectable scholars of any political stripe who approve of the extremist anti-American version of Afrocentrism promoted by Hilliard and Carruthers.
To top it all off we have Bill Ayers and his wife Bernardine Dohrn planning to release a book in 2009 called the “Race Course Against White Supremacy.” It will be published by Third World Press which was set up by Carruthers and “Association for the Study of Classical African Civilizations.”
So now we know that the Annenberg Challenge funded fringe schools that taught blacks to fear the white man, to fear being Americanized, and embrace being anything but an American. We know that these Afrocentric ideas went from Carruthers schools to the lips of Wright at his church attended by Obama AND we know the terrorist pal of Obama, Bill Ayers, is writing a book about race to be published by the nut Carruthers.
But does Obama buy into this Afrocentric way of thinking?
…in 1995, the same year Obama assumed control of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, he publicly rejected “the unrealistic politics of integrationist assimilation,” a stance that clearly resonates with both Wright and Carruthers.
And as noted, Wright had invited Carruthers, Hilliard, and like-minded thinkers to address his Trinity congregants. Wright likes to tick off his connections to these prominent Afrocentrists in sermons, and Obama would surely have heard of them. Reading over SSAVC’s Annenberg proposals, Obama could hardly be ignorant of what they were about. And if by some chance Obama overlooked Hilliard’s or Carruthers’s names, SSAVC’s proposals are filled with references to “rites of passage” and “Ptahhotep,” dead giveaways for the anti-American and separatist ideological concoction favored by SSAVC.
We know that Obama did read the proposals. Annenberg documents show him commenting on proposal quality.
Kurtz concludes:
However he may seek to deny it, all evidence points to the fact that, from his position as board chair of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, Barack Obama knowingly and persistently funded an educational project that shared the extremist and anti-American philosophy of Jeremiah Wright. The Wright affair was no fluke. It’s time for McCain to say so.
Obama has dismissed any allegation that he buys into these teachings but we now have evidence that he not only attended the church that centered around this stuff, he helped fund them also.
And this man is just a breath away from the White House…..
See author page
MataHarley:
Sorry that I set you off with fuzzy factoids. I’ll try to me a more polite guest in your little corner of the world.
I don’t have the time to discuss all of the issues you brought up. Let me discuss socialism very briefly.
As you know, during the Vietnam War era, many opponents of the war were called communist. Now, many opponents of the ruling Republicans are called socialists, especially if they suggest raising taxes or regulating private industry.
Here are some definitions of socialism:
A theory of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
(Random House Unabridged Dictionary, 2006)
Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
(American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 2006)
A political theory advocating state ownership of industry.
(WordNet, Princeton, 2006)
A theory or system of social reform which contemplates a complete reconstruction of society, with a more just and equitable distribution of property and labor. In popular usage, the term is often employed to indicate any lawless, revolutionary social scheme.
(Webster’s Revised Unabridged Dictionary, 1998)
Increasing the income tax rate on those earning >$250K by 3% is not socialism. It’s a tax increase.
Obama is not a socialist by any of these definitions and neither is Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont, who is the only member of the Senate who describes himself as a “democratic socialist”.
Obama votes for and advocates for a more mainstream liberal Democratic agenda than he had in his earlier years of public life. Many liberals have not forgiven him for his FISA vote, for his approval of the Iraq occupation budget or for his recent suggestion that he may support off-shore drilling if it’s packaged properly.
Remember, Eisenhower was in power for eight years when the top individual tax rate was 91%. Except for a few John Birchers, no one referred to him as a “socialist”.
If you wish to belittle or demean Obama, why not come up with a more truthful and accurate word to describe him. “Liberal” would be the most accurate, but conservatives may not find that provocative enough.
My fear is that he won’t be around for long. Some vicious gun owner, seething with rage, will soon have Obama in his crosshairs. I’ve seen the hate in the faces and in the eyes of those who think he’s a Muslim and a terrorist. I’ve heard the anger in the voices. I’ve read the vitriol.
This man’s life is in danger. Please don’t spread the hate.
No, I do not go to leftist blogs. Rampant national socialists bore me with thier stupidity and spoon-fed marching orders. I am upset that when deployed I have to start too many calls with “I know CNN said this, but our base was not bombed and we did not rape and pillage anything, nor will we”. But enough of that.
As for the analogy, no, I dissagree in one important sense. The person who bought the child IS a criminal, but if the spouse (or another child) freed the enslaved child, THAT person is not a criminal. Yet this is not the case when referring to the USA and a stain which happened 150 years ago. That point is what I was getting at. The USA is painted as “evil” for slavey. No consideration is given for the fact we killed vast numbers of our own after the issue (wed sadly to “states rights”) led to the disintegration of the Federal Union, followed by massive destruction and even more loss of life. No other nation has expended so much and conducted a very unpopular intercine war to accomplish this. Yet the whole nation is still held “guilty” for something every culture has done. No other culture is held to this standard and nor is the fact much of the nation fought against slavery in one fashion or another. Nor are those of us whose ancestors not only never held slaves but worked to free them given credit. No, we get thrown in with the few who held slaves.
In your analogy, that would mean the whole family, even the ones who called the police, aided in the investigation, and helped the child escape are thrown in prison for life.
“My fear is that he won’t be around for long. Some vicious gun owner, seething with rage, will soon have Obama in his crosshairs. I’ve seen the hate in the faces and in the eyes of those who think he’s a Muslim and a terrorist. I’ve heard the anger in the voices. I’ve read the vitriol.
This man’s life is in danger. Please don’t spread the hate.”
Nice propaghanda. Not true, but nice regurgitation of talking points. If anyone did try to assassinate Obama, conservatives would also call for the shooter’s head.
But then I have to ask if it is ok that the left really IS acting out the threats you seem to have heard, but against conservatives? Is it ok that cinder blocks were thrown on busses at the RNC convention? That deligates were attacked? Is it ok to make movies depicting the assasination of President Bush? Or does “spreading hate” not apply to the left (as many standards seem to not apply to the left’s conduct)?
“Liberal” is not how I would describe Obmama. “Leftist” is better as “Liberal” has to be further defined as “classical” or the modern leftist.
Again, with the automatic, all-encompassing “stupidity” charge. Come on, Chris, I know you’re better than that.
How about if the molester let the child go, that is, freed the child, would he cease to be a criminal? Americans kept slaves, Americans freed slaves. Do you see anyone who is not an American in that equation? And no, that doesn’t mean I hate my country, it just means I’m honest about it’s sins. You can’t move forward until you know where you are and where you’ve been.
BTW, stay safe the next time you’re deployed.
Dave,
You seemed to miss-understand… again…. And yes, I consider those on the left who follow Obama without question stupid or at least easily mis-lead. The PUMAs would agree on this point, but they are being silenced. I do not consider those who follow socialism and class warfare intelligent. Even a fool like Howard Stern showed that on his show by swtching McCain and Obama positions and people still showed support for Obama… and wanted Pailin as VP. I have to wonder what they base their reasons on.
As for the molester, no, he still goes to jail, but the fact others in the house helped free the child and then went on for painful decades including and integrating that child in thier family until that child reached the point where they were equal (given say in the family, power to make decisions, etc) is ignored.
Other cultures, however, are totally absolved of any wrongs they did and that too is ignored and wrong. Why are African nations not held to standards the US is? Why are Islamic nations not held to standards the world imposes on the US? Why are European nations (with the exception of Germany’s NAZI period) not held to US standards. Why is Russia not held, nor Japan, nor China held accountable? All held slaves (and some still do), yet it is always the USA who gets its nose rubbed in it. The world seems to have forgot its darker history (and present)
Yes, our history is not perfect and we must never forget it, however, we MUST understand that not everyone was involved with this blight and these people, who often gave their lives to stop slavery are unfairly and dishonestly lumped in with the slave owners. For historical accuracy, these people must be acknowledged and absolved of guilt. So in a sense, we HAVE forgotten our history and hatred against people who have never done anything wrong is being sewn by the Wrights and Farakans of the world.
My but don’t that shoe fit, sandormatyo. This is easily accomplished under your innocent “tax increase”, “windfall taxes” and, of course (had you read the Tax Policy Center analysis I linked to above) Obama’s proposal to give tax credit revenues to those who do not pay taxes. Interesting form of welfare there. You also miss the point these refundable tax refunds are increased government spending…. all on the taxpayers’ dime.
Then of course, there is “universal healthcare”, aka “socialized healthcare”, which of course you must not consider socialism either. Somehow I wonder if the government will end up as owner of the energy that Obama wants to fund with taxpayer cash to the tune of $150 bil.
If a government seeks, say by windfall or any other kind of taxes, to limit the profit structure of any private enterprise before seizing what they deem is “too much”, that differs little from a government vesting in “control” of that company. It’s ability to expand operations has now been limited by government. Therefore it means little that a government must take over (ala Chavez/oil industries, farms, etal in Venezuela) actual titled ownership since the outcome is little different.
Obama’s quest for a more socialized America… evidently so cleverly disguised that you find ample ways to slide over calling a spade a spade … is something this nation cannot afford financially.
BTW, your over dramatization of Obama’s physical danger, and somehow linking “spreading the hate” to me personally, is so damned offensive, I hardly know where to begin. I am an avowed capitalist, and see more about his policies than either you care to see, or are able to see. There is nothing in my authored posts or thread comments about “hate” of Obama. Distrust, and complete opposition to his visions for America, yes. I will never vote, nor support anyone voting for, an overt socialist to be my command in chief.
That you translate my intense opposition to Obama’s socialist plans as “spreading the hate” is nothing more than some guilt trip you and the Obama faithul are trying to lay on those that don’t blindly follow your chosen leader. Already the cries begin, pre election, that if Obama loses, it somehow has to be about race, and not policies. You lay a very dangerous groundwork here, trying to clamp down on free speech and opinions by such Salem witch hunt accusations. So just who is actually “spreading hate”?
It’s interesting you assume the violence and destruction comes only from right wing fringe… which, yes, exists. Yet you ignore that the most violent protests and destruction comes from your own left wing fringe – from those with hate and vitriol in their eyes claiming they want peace. You can count Obama’s bud, William Ayers, amongst those.
Any POTUS life is in danger. Not the least of which included the President so many love to hate, George W. Bush. Why do I doubt you ever spent a nanosecond of fret for his safety? Considering you are of the opinion that he “sent our children off to die for no reason”, I have to wonder… just how large a part did you, personally, play in “spreading the hate” about him?
And BTW, the last I looked, our extraordinary men and women were young adults, volunteers in the service of this country. They were not drafted, nor forced. Our service branches do not enlist “children”.
MataHarley:
There’s just so much and I don’t have the time. Keep the peace.
@sandormatyo:
You may be on to something there.
h/t – Ace The MSM Was Right: “Dangerous Incitment” Leads Man with AK-47 to Threaten Politician’s Life
Oh wait…
That was a threat on President Bush’s life.
Move along folks. Nothing to see here.
@MataHarley:
Oops….
Somebody spilled the linkies.
Wright’s discourse and others like it are indeed, radical. But they are not un-American even when they are anti-American.
Why? Because America is a precept — a body of beliefs, principles and practices that are so profound and powerful that ALL that is “evil” will fall in its wake, if we stand true to our creed and act out our faith in this country.
Does this statement resonate with anyone? “I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”
How about this one? “Give me liberty, or give me death.”
This one? “O say does that Star Spangled Banner yet wave o’er the land of the free and the home of the brave”?
The history of the black man in this country has been the toughest and the truest testament to the power of our laws and Constitution and one of America’s greatest achievements that continues to unfold before our very eyes.
Working together, we have abolished slavery in this country, despite it being the most lucrative business proposition of the 18th and 19th centuries. Living up to our creed, has led this country to abolish Jim Crow in the 20th centruy. And today, in the 21st century, Barack Obama is running for president, and there are afrocentric educational centers that tell young black boys that they are worthy in the face of so much that tells them otherwise. They are free to openly question whether there is justice in a G-d who sees justice in white men oppressing black men then that is not our G-d.
If we the people can turn the tide of injustice of this magnitude … over time and on our own shores … there isn’t anything we cannot do so long as we uphold our Constitution.
Dave,
I think your analogy is flawed in its premise; it misses the point of argument that we’re making, which isn’t that America is not without its sins, but that America is singled out and hammered again, and again, and again over it. It’s Howard Zinn’s lopsided handwringing angst on American history that I detest and reject. I heard him on the radio asked if the world would have been better off if America had never existed. He said yes. It is not a slander to call that belief “anti-American” AND unpatriotic. It is an appropriate description.
What Voter seems to suggest- and we’re reading between the lines here- is that it is America who is solely to blame for the institution of slavery, and for the inhuman treatment and enslavement of blacks. That institution existed long before America became a country. And blacks have not been the unique victims of enslavement. And long before white Europeans participated in the African slave trade, Africans and Arabs enslaved Africans (and others). Even at the peak of the Atlantic slave trade, Africans possessed more slaves for themselves than they sent to western powers. Where is the outrage? Where are the calls for reparation?
Where is the balance? It is easy to judge the past through 20th and 21st century morality. But back then, enslavement had been around since the dawn of man, and the moral question didn’t exist for societies. Prior to the 18th century, people as a whole, didn’t think “outside the box” and begin questioning the enslavement of fellow human beings as a moral reprehensibility. It was only in the west- amongst evangelical Christians- that the world’s first anti-slavery movement was started. The emancipation of slaves in non-western countries wasn’t a moral issue, until western powers imposed the issue of morality upon them.
No other nation in the history of the planet ended slavery in the same way that the U.S. ended it, and in so short a span of time, as history is measured.
We’re not ignoring America’s sins. But this constant “America is racist”, “America has a history of slavery and oppression”, “America is an imperialist nation” as if America and America alone has sins of the past to answer for, is a historical distortion if it exempts all others of a longer history of slavery, imperialism, oppression, and atrocities that still take place in other parts of the world.
If not for western powers like Britain and the United States, where would the institution of slavery be today? When will self-loathing, self-hating, hand-wringing Howard Zinn liberals start acknowledging the things we can be proud of as a western nation?
@Wordsmith: We can look at most major civilizations from the beginnig of time, and find atrosities. I was responding to someones attack post, because I said I was going to teach my children about thier cultures. I don’t understand why it is so bad to have a sense of pride in where you come from, and pass that pride onto your children. My mother in-law was adopted by a hispanic woman, who couldn’t speak english. So her first language was spanish. She thought she was mexican untill she was 15. When she found out she was black, she had a MAJOR identitiy crisis. She lacked that sense of self pride. I would think you would understand this more than anyone Word, being Thai and being adopted by someone outside your culture, yourself.
This is the post I was responding to.
–
@voter: Are you going to teach your children to embrace the Hungarian culture that oppressed (Magyarization) the Slovak people?
Posts like that are just meant to attack.
I wouldn’t have even brought up America’s involvement with slavery. What’s happening, with me at least, I am not as extreme as I must seem to everyone, but I am forced to defend extreme points because of the attacks on the one word or sentences that people are choosing to respond to.
You know my husband has a great analogy. The whole melting pot doesn’t work for us. In a melting pot you lose all your texture and taste and mix with everyone else.
We are more like a salad. Each ingredient, makes the salad even better, you can taste all the different tastes, and textures, and the more you add the better it is. That’s what we see when we see the USA. I love our country, the good and the bad. We just need to remember our own past (good and bad) before we start judging others, and in the process of remembering, we need to take responsibility for our part, not point fingers to others. That’s how we will truly move forward.
I think the problem here, is stigmatizing you with preconceived notions, based upon your political affiliation, and the way you worded your comment #38. I can see that you said “teach them about all of it, including the bad”, but what sticks out is “the bad” since you went on to describe it. Did us right-wingers knee-jerk to it? Yes, we did.
There’s nothing wrong with it. But what troubles me is what Macsdragon3 said very well in another thread (comment #163): this idea of fixating one’s identity around being a hyphenated-American, rather than just being American.
People should take pride in their unique cultural heritage and ancestry; but multiculturalists take it to a point of narcissism. Not all cultures contributed equally to the history of this country. Because we don’t want to “offend” or have “hurt feelings”, we minimize historical traditions like Christmas trees in the public square and Christmas carols because these things might make some people feel “excluded”. The Christmas holiday is an American holiday. It should be recognized, embraced and respected as such. No one is asking you to worship Christ. But why is there this need to make people feel inclusion by changing traditions to read “winter holiday”, “holiday tree”, “winter carols”? I don’t demand during Cinco de Mayo that “my culture” be included and reflected in its celebration. If the entire nation doesn’t celebrate “Ramadan” and other religious holidays as equally as “Easter”, it’s because Islam and other religions are not equal, in terms of contributing to the shaping of America in the previous 200 years. Our country was founded upon Judeo-Christian values and beliefs. For a nation to survive, assimilation is critical. Bring your own unique culture to the shores, and add to what is already here; but don’t try to replace the established traditions and culture; don’t be a narcissist and feel hurt that your culture doesn’t get equal representation. During St. Patrick’s Day, we wear green and pinch those who don’t. It may be a superficial way to celebrate the day, but for us non-Irish folk, at least we are joining in the fun and not demanding other cultures impose themselves upon the same holiday.
My family is not Christian; yet my life would have been impoverished as a child had my parents not celebrated the “non-religious” and commercial aspects of Christmas. We had trees and exchanged cards. How sad is it, where one is prevented in some work places from giving someone a Christmas card? For fear of “offending”? This is as much an American tradition as it is Christian. It’s part of the glue that binds and gives us commonality.
For all the talks of tolerance and understanding of other cultures, there is a big intolerance from many on the left for expressions of cultural Christian heritage and traditions.
Immigrants used to come here and adopt and adapt (many still do); then the ACLU and multiculturalists reared their ugly little heads and have made them think freedom in America entitles you to come here and set up your own little “country within a country”. Assimilation is frowned down upon while diversity and multiculturalism is celebrated in all the wrong ways.
America IS my culture, Erika. That’s the thing. I don’t identify myself as Thai-American. I’m an American. To say “Thai-American” is as meaningful to me as saying I’m an “Arizonian-American” or “Pisces-American”.
I don’t need to root for a Thai or Asian American to be president of the U.S. I don’t need to feel like us Asians haven’t made it yet, because we haven’t had an Asia president of the U.S. yet; my children don’t need someone with Asiatic features to look up to; they can identify themselves with any hero and role-model they wish, of all ethnic stripes and color. Because I don’t define myself by skin color and ethnicity.
I know blacks have a rather unique place in our history. But I think the way to get beyond race is to “get over it” and quit seeing America in the 21st century as the same America of 150 or even 40 years ago. How do we get beyond race? Quit obsessing over it. Quit blaming me and my fellow Americans TODAY, for what happened 150 years ago to ancestors people didn’t even know. It’s the victim mentality that enslaves people today. Those looking for racism will be sure to find it- including in places where it doesn’t exist. Those walking around with a chip on their shoulder will surely be treated as if there’s something wrong with them. But no one is holding them down. They’re held down by the chains of their own victimology dogma.
Don’t let others push your buttons, Erika. You can always ignore.
I agree. I certainly don’t see you as extreme, and I see you as someone with an open mind to listen and learn, and someone I can listen and learn from as well.
Interesting take. I’ve always saw America as a melting pot, with multiculturalists wanting us to be a salad, where there is that wall of separation that exists- “country within a country”, where entire communities are almost kind of seceding from the rest of America, and no one wants to speak English. We’re the United States; not the United Nations of America.
My idea is adopt the established culture; then add what is specifically your own unique background to it. THAT is American. That is diversity. But don’t replace the established culture for your own. That is separatist and harmful to America.
@wordsmith: I hear you and I can even relate to most of it, I agree with some of it. The problem is its an extreme. Yes I am an american as my children are, but america is made up of MANY cultures. If we just relate to and learn about AMERICA, and lose apart of ourselves, then we move backwards. We then move away from what america is all about. I do believe when somebody makes a choice to come to america, they have an obligation to learn our “culture”, and abide by our laws that we have. But they also have a responsibility to thier children to not forget and totally lose who they are. Otherwise all the wonderfull traditions and beliefs that are different from america will be lost and forgotten forever in our america. Should we expect to learn these things from text books? We need to embrace ALL cultures, and differences, without prejudice, in order to do so we need to educate our children, and they will do the same and so on. If we do not do this, racism will only get worse, because there will be the unknown, that we are scared of, and in turn will reject. We should not just become bland all mesh together and lose the individuallity. You can’t fully respect something untill you understand it. I like the salad analogy, because nothing loses its individual taste, and still becomes part of something bigger and better.
Posts like that are just meant to attack.
If you want to be taken seriously and have a two way conversation and an honest debate, which is what you claim to be interested in you need to seriously stop with the poor, pitiful me victimhood mentality.
You toss out your firebombs, not backed by any sort of anchor in reality and then refuse to address the responses because you feel “attacked”.
That’s not debating.
Let’s see if maybe we can begin again.
From post #38:
Dragging the unanswered questions back to the surface:
DAMMIT! Now I’ve got that Great American Melting Pot song stuck in my head.
@voter: The Grat Amaerican Salad is what is destroying this country. Think Balkanization.
Multiculturalism will be the downfall of our great country. Idnetitity Politics is what the Democrats use, African-Americans, Females, Homosexuals, and every other goup you can think of. This balkanizes the country into little groups.
As a conservative, I look at who the person is and could care less what color, ethnicity, or religion they are. It is the person adn what they believe in.
This is the fundamental difference with Liberals and Conservatives. Liberals look at groups of people, conservatives look at indivivuals.
– President Theodore Roosevelt 1919
@Aye Chihuahua: That is an awesome quote. Perfectly explains everything.
@Aye Chihuahua: Actually Aye, I think voter’s issue is with my previous question that caused her to step in it
No, it wasn’t meant to attack. I started to write a response but I just can’t be bothered to get indepth. Voter, you were a convienient path for me to make a point. See, many people suffer from an “identity crisis”. Most cultures that exist in America were oppressed in some form or another in their homelands (the native Americans didn’t even have to travel). That’s what makes us America, the salad/melting pot.
I’m American. I’m an American of Slovak descent. My grandfather was born in 1885 under Magyarization. Revisit the link I provided earlier for exactly what that means. My grandfather (and thus myself) was fortunate to get out at the turn of the century. It was just several months ago that I found out where he came from and what my surname really is. Much like Joe’s grandparent’s, my grandparents too were “freed” by America.
I’m babbling. I guesss my point is, “you can’t judge a book by it’s cover”. Yes, my skin is “white”. Does that make me unable to relate to the tribulations of other cultures? Does that mean that I must feel “guilt” because people that “look like me” did bad things? Should I run around with tears in my eyes blaming you, voter (since you have Hungarian ancestry), for what occured to my ancestors 3 generations ago or should I applaud the fact that in 2 generations, the grandsons of an illiterate peasant, are college educated, homeowners who achieved it without help from the government?
Yes, I’m passionate about America. Like Joe, it brings tears to my eyes when I think of a 16 year old boy leaving his country and ethnic cleansing to come to a strange land where he did not know the people or the language. By the grace of God, the courage of that boy and the founding fathers, I’m American! I fear the CHANGE that Obama wants to bring to this country and those who are following him blindly. I look back into my history and see what could be.
My story is no different than millions of others of every race and creed. Every wave of immigrants were taken advantage of but given the oppourtunity to make a better life for themselves.
Don’t forget your history, but don’t be chained by it.
@Uddercha0s:
Udder,
You’re correct.
I meant to include your question in the list.
I missed it and then real life intruded and I was unable to get back until now.
It’s plainly evident to all of us who are paying attention that voter/Erika only engages in output.
As a side note, has anyone ever noticed how few complaints you hear from the Jewish people?
They, as a nationality, a race, and a culture have suffered more across the span of history than any other group of people on the face of the earth.
Yet, they quietly persevere and move forward with tremendous success and determination.
Perhaps the application of the Jewish people’s focus on the future and a little less clinging to the negatives of the past would benefit other groups as well.
Hows about the Chinese brought here to build the railroads?
As I listtem to the news now, I realize, I’m a western Pennsylvania racist who clings to his Bible and guns.
Yeah, I’ve gave my input.. oops.. no response? Voter… talk to me. Joe, come on.. I laid my life out there.. talk to me…
Nah, it won’t happen. I don’t care. I hope the next time a “black” man looks at a “white” man that he thinks tho… maybe his family went through the same sh*t
@Uddercha0s: Well as a Catholic I should be pissed at most of the country for how they treat Catholics, especially in the MSM.
Or how bad the Polish were treated, or the Irish, or Germans during WWII even though my grandpa was in the Army, or the Portrail of Ghengis Khan and the Mongols (since they raped and pillagedd Poland and every family has Monglian genes in them) or the Vikings.
It is good to know your past andyour culture, but to dewll on the past is not good and can only divide us in America. That is why the hypenated-American crap is badfor thuis country. Should I say I am a Polish, German, Lithiuanian, Mongolian, Norwegian, Scotch Irish, English American??? Whew,I do not think I missed any.
See, my family has a rich diversity of cultures in it. My grandma wrote a geneology book of our family going back to when my Grandpa’s family left Germany, or was it France at the time? We do not really know because after every war, it changed hands.
Knowing one’s geneology and the cultures that come with it is great, and should be taught,but not in schools, that isfor family members to tell you about. Schools should teach about America and its culture, there are times where othercultures should betaught also, but the main focus should be on America. We are Americans first and foremost, as Teddy speech eloquently says @Aye Chihuahua:
And yes the United States has not always been the good guys or took the high road, Slavery and the Forceful migration of Indians comes to mind, but the US has been the beacon of Freedom and Hope for the world. What other countries would actually build up the countries that they just defeated in battle??? What other countries would defeat a country and not make them a State in their Empire???
And people wonder why I would never vote for the Democrats that always put down America for everything we have done for this world. Maybe they should ask the Czechs, the Poles, the Lithuanians, or any other Eastern European country what America means to them, or how they have run their countries after the defeat of the USSR. They know what it is like to live in tyranny and looked towards the US for the way to structure their govenments.
Excuse me…. your grandma knows me?
@stix1972: Sorry, I see what happened and you fixed the typo.
Yes, you are entirely right. I don’t dwell on my past, I don’t forget it though. I pull it out on ocassions like this cuz.. you know what.. there’s more of us out here. I really only think of my heritage during holidays while I’m eating ethnic foods! Haha. Pirohi.. or as some pronounce pieogies.
I have always believed, and still do, we’re all rejects.. and America accepted us and believes in us. Why do we want to point out our differences when our similarities are much closer? We are the best in the world. I make no excuses. The tired, poor, huddled masses, yearning to be free..
I’m off my soap box. I’m off this board for now. I can not continue because it is unhealthy for me. Good luck and the best of wishes to all. Until we meet again…..
@Uddercha0s: It’s ok I usually have to look at it after I post it becasue I am not the greatest at typing. Especially if it is a long post
Here is another nugget, should my dad’s family be mad at my grandpa’s ethnicity since my grandpa is German (but was in the US Army in WWII) and my dad is 100% Polish, his family came straight from Poland after WWII.
We can go on and on on historical atrocities that people have done, but I tend to look forward.
@stix1972:
My point exactly. Does that mean that I, as a white American, no longer have to suffer “white guilt”?
@Uddercha0s: You seem intent on trying to take what I’ve been saying in a different direction, I’m not saying ANYTHING negative, I’m saying we should embrace our differences. How would we do that if our difference got lost in the wash (or should I say melting pot)? I can’t believe that it is so hard for you to see what I an saying. Don’t you understand that it would also help us with our international relationships to understand other cultures, so that we can in turn RESPECT those cultures. If we stay in our own little corner in the world and don’t let any outside info come in, then we are like North Korea. If we don’t teach and pass down to our children, who happen to be our future, the knowledge and traditions, it will get lost forever from our America. It IS up to the family to teach and pass down the teachings of tradition and knowledge and pride of our background, not the schools, I haven’t said any different. It is up to the schools however to teach major history. But the self pride is the families role. I don’t understand how what I’m saying goes to a place of “should I be mad because this happened” or anything like that, you guys are totally missing what I’m saying, or you are just trying to project your own negativity on me and my post. What ever it is, you are totally missing the mark. Are we so vein to believe that America is the only country with culture and traditions and knows how all should live their lives? Are we so vein to believe that theres no need to get to know our neighbors, and where they come from, or what they are all about? I’m not saying anything about skin color, I am talking about culture, which has no color.
-Here is another nugget, should my dad’s family be mad at my grandpa’s ethnicity since my grandpa is German (but was in the US Army in WWII) and my dad is 100% Polish, his family came straight from Poland after WWII
No you should embrace the history and teach it to your children.
@Uddercha0s: My above post wasn’t only to you, it was to all that responded to me, sorry if it seemed like I was singling you out. 😉
voter #64:
Erika,
I understand what you are conveying. It’s not that I’m against celebrating diversity and the appreciation of the beauty of other cultures. My mom is Japanese; I love Japanese culture, participate annually in Nisei Week on behalf of Japanese-Americans. Japanese pop culture has infiltrated our culture in ways similar to how American culture can be found influencing cultures all over the globe. I’m not afraid of it. I don’t believe our love affair with Japanese anime, sushi, martial arts, etc. dilutes our own culture. Cross-cultural pollination enriches, not detracts; and the attempt to preserve rigid tradition and cultural purity, similar to the Amish, is not only an exercise in futility (just look to the Amish), but also leads to cultural stagnation. It’s what happened to China when they closed their borders to the influence of outside “barbarians”. Change and evolution are a natural part of life and of history. The flow of it can’t and shouldn’t be stopped from happening.
But what I deplore is this narcissistic need to impose one’s culture upon an established culture, as somehow being of equal historic significance to that particular society. For instance, western culture and traditions contributed to the shaping of our nation. Not just its founding, but also its succeeding 200 year history. It wasn’t Hindu culture; it wasn’t Indonesian culture; it wasn’t Arabic culture; it wasn’t Mongolian culture. So excuse me if I accept Christmas and Easter, but not Ramadan and Raksabandhana. Our “Judeo-Christian” heritage and traditions are at the very core of our nation’s establishment. It’s at the heart of who we are. Yet groups like the ACLU seek to dissolve and eradicate, to minimize and replace much of what made us who we are. Of what gave us our ability to tolerate and welcome diverse cultures and religious practices. Being American means assimilating into the culture that is recognized as “American”. It’s not just “baseball and apple pie”. Today, it’s also “California rolls, Chinese acupuncture, and eastern Yoga”. But such blending and mingling of differences happens naturally, based upon popularity. Over time, it is absorbed and ASSIMILATED into the American mainstream culture. What multiculturalists want to do is minimize the significance of what they feel is “white European”-dominant cultural establishment, and say, “all cultures are equal in significance”. This dilutes, not enriches American culture. Just imagine if English were no longer accepted as the national language- seen as “the language of Britain” and of white Europeans. A nation cannot survive as a nation without the commonality of language to bond us together, along with the importance of borders, and a recognized culture- a culture made up of many influences, but those influences assimilated into the pre-existing one- not existing separately, alongside it.
What if I, as a Thai-American, demanded that we have not an “Asian history month”, but a “Thai-American history month” (“Asian” not being narcissistic enough for my ego, self-esteem, and self identity)? I recognize that black Americans have a special place in American history, and black history month, at least initially, was a needed idea to bridge some of the divide and establish racial healing. But at a certain point, it becomes a crutch. To truly move beyond race and not be enslaved by a sense of victimization and carry along a chip of anger on the shoulder- leading to a self-fulfilling perception of racist persecution, I agree with Morgan Freeman who feels there shouldn’t be a “black history month”, but that it should be a part of American history. What if every ethnic and special interest group, not wanting to feel left out and having bruised egos and issues of identity crisis, begins lobbying for a “Jewish history month”, “Armenian history month”, “Islamic history month”, Russian history month”, “Irish history month”, “German history month”, etc. ? Where does it end?
If there doesn’t seem like there is equal representation of actors in Hollywood who are black, maybe that’s because our society isn’t made up of 50% white, 50% black? So if only 15% of leading roles are going to black actors….well, to me, that sounds about right. But who the hell cares? I don’t go about whining that I do not have Asian role models in lead Hollywood roles to make me feel good about myself as an Asian. My on-screen hero would be John Wayne, Bruce Wayne, Humphrey Bogart, or Indiana Jones. They happen to be white, but so what? My football hero when I lived in Texas at the age of 14, was Tony Dorsett, a black running back. The NFL and NBA are disproportionately made up of black and white athletes. Affirmative action and feel-good liberal policies that would seek to bring in more Asian athletes into those two leagues, just for the sake of “equal representation” would be preposterous beyond belief. Athletes should make it in a sport, based upon their athletic merits. Not for the sake of meeting ethnic quotas. If I’m not tall enough, if I can’t play well enough to make up for my “vertical challenge”, tough luck. Don’t lower the rim, don’t drop the standards, don’t do me a “favor” with affirmative action.
Wow….I really strayed off on a tangent, didn’t I? Sorry. Gotta refocus here….
I can appreciate that, and even agree with it. So long as the culture of your new home- of the country you want to call your own- is the one you cultivate loyalty and a sense of belonging to. That means learning, acquiring, devouring everything the country is and stands for. Assimilation takes priority. It doesn’t mean forgetting one’s roots. It doesn’t mean maintaining a sense of pride in one’s historical ancestral roots. Speaking more than one language is good, so by all means, pass on one’s native language to the next generation. BUT, definitely make the established common language THE priority. For multiculturalists to suggest that those who wish to establish English as the official language of the United States are “racists” and “prejudiced against ethnic minorities” is preposterous beyond belief, and so misguided it defies logic.
I think you’re right that we probably agree more than we disagree.
I prefer the melting pot analogy. Salad, the way I choose to perceive it, is an analogy for segregation and separatism. Of course, the way you are interpreting the salad analogy, works for me, too.
Sorry for not staying focused and ranting off topic on my own “chip on the shoulder” pet peeves.
@Wordsmith: I have to say, when I write a post, I look forward to your response, I can respect what you have to say and your point of view, even the parts that I don’t totally agree with. I want to respond in more detail to your post but I am so tired, and need to go to bed, I will respond in the morning.
Why should I respect other cultures that do not hold American values. Freedom of press and freedom of religion. Not all cultures are equal. The Western philosophy of thought is better than the thought of Asia or the Middle East. They have a culture based off of ancient thought. The Middle East and Socialist countries have no freedom of the Press and Freedom or Religion. Why should I respect that????
@stix1972: Oh my gosh are you really serious? You have to learn and respect your own history first. Your ancestors and America’s. America is the greatest nation on earth with out a doubt. But you can’t deny her tainted past. From when other countries opened up their prisons and set their criminals free to colonize the US. To the genocide on the American Natives, for hundreds of years majority of the countries economy and progress was on the backs of an enslaved race. Yes before you jump down my throat and say we made that all better by fighting to free the slaves, remember not all of America fought to free them. It was a civil war, there were a fair number of Americans that did not want to have freedom for all. I’m not saying other countries don’t have their terrible acts upon humanity, I am talking about the USA. Have we moved forward as a country, YES, but their is no limit to the progress. America tries to portray itself as the top dog in areas of progress, democracy, and education and many other things, yet we are so arrogant that we don’t respect other ways of life. For example Asia and the Middle East, you may not agree with me, but their way of life, whether we agree with it or not, has been around long before we were even a thought. Who are we to say they live their life wrong and we have all the answers. When we have our own problems here. How do we even know that our democracy will work with in their culture. Why do you think such a large portion of the world does not like us? We pass judgement on others but are easy to forget our own tainted history. I am getting off point here, Asia and the Middle East are rich in traditions and culture that their people live and think is right. We don’t have to agree with it to accept it and to respect it. But until we (the human race) learn about and respect other cultures, and ways of life, there will be more and more atrocities on humanity. And it all starts with learning our own culture and history. If we just keep the frame of mind that “I don’t like them or how they live, so I’m just going to hate them or force our way of life on them,” we are going to further alienate ourselves from the rest of the world. (I realize that the frame of mind I described was ridiculous, but think about it, it is how we have been dealing with others.) Now that said, I think that America is the greatest nation on earth. We still have some work to do, and progress to make. My point is we all have differences, and that is great. We should respect and embrace those differences. We are not the only ones with all the answers.
So I am supposed to respect a culture that treats women as chattle, forces females to marry as young as 9. No, you earn respect, you do not just give it. This goes against everything that I was brought up to believe in. We should respect women as equals and not user them as property.
Yes they have a old culture and many interesting customs. But they have not left the 7th century. That is what I do no respect. If they would actually join the modern world, I would respect them more.
Or am I to respect the Kim Jong Il and his hell hole. What is there to respect from there. My mom lived in South Korea and loved the people and traditions that they had. they were very friendly and very hard working people. That is somethong to respect. She though the Japanes were rude and did not help her at all.
And you keep on bringing up what the USA did in the past, yes we need to know what the US did to the Iindiand, the Japanese during WWII, and many other bad things that we did as a nation, but ti dwell on it is wrong and destructive.
stix:
voter:
@Wordsmith: I am talking about what is going on now, not what happened in the past. Why dwell on what happened in the past. As a historian, we should all be pissed at everyone. The world is a cruel place and many atrocities all over the place happened throughout time.
You are coming from the premise that these different countries are trying to earn your respect. They are just living thier lives, like they have been for thousands of years. I am not saying that I agree with thier customs when it comes to women, but that is thier custom, and has been forever.
Again, whose to say what the right way to live is, its been working for them, what do we care? It was not to long ago, that women in the USA couldn’t even have a credit card or vote, let alone, the right for equal pay, that YOUR candidate voted AGAINST.
-You are right is wrong to dwell, but there is a difference in dwelling, and remembering, before you cast stones at others.
@Wordsmith: Hey, how do you put the pretty yellow border around the quotes?;)
damn I had a response all typed out and went into the unknown,
I sould have copied it before, but I am too hung over to try and rememebr what I all said
@voter:
That is all fine and good, but have they changed with the times like Western Civilization has done?
Yes women were treated as second class citizens just a few decades ago, but we have seen that that was wrong and have changes. Most in the Middle East have not.
@voter: Hey, how do you put the pretty yellow border around the quotes?;)
You go to the arrows under comments and click on quote.
@stix1972:
just checking, to see if it worked, the only thing that says quote is b-quote
@voter:
that is what I meant. You can add links also.
@stix1972: Sweet, thank you I am new to this.
@voter: no problem. I just figured it out a little while ago also
Voter/Erika. So sorry… really must correct your perceptions once again.
Too simple a talking point in the context of reality, girl. The Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act of 2007-08 was first HR 2831. Here’s the history of all actions on the bill.
The bill was never voted on in the Senate. It was read/introduced in the Senate 8/2007, and placed on the legislative calendar. (remember who was in majority power in 2007?)
It was referred to the Senate Judicial Committee (Leahy chair), but Reid tried force a premature end to the debate (cloture) about amending the bill and force a vote. McCain wasn’t present for this cloture/procedural vote. But, if present, would have voted no to ending the debate.
There’s your “voted no against equal pay for women” claim…. Not much substance to it, eh? First fact, he wasn’t there to vote.
Second fact, it wasn’t about the passage of the bill, but a vote to cease debate and force the vote. A bill that would potentially increase lawsuits immensely as written.
If you don’t know what the bill was about, it was constructed to reverse the Supreme court decision of Ledbetter v Goodyear, who ruled that the statute of limitations for Ledbetter to file a discimination claim had expired (she worked 19 years, and filed only a couple of months before she retired).
On legal scrutiny of the bill, the decision was 5-4, but correct with letter of law. So Congress was trying to correct the flaw.
Problem is the way they corrected it in the Fair Pay Act of 2007-08 went the other extreme… allowing for class action suits, and lawsuits with an infinite end of time (i.e. statue of limitations that renewed with every paycheck receipt).
Thus the Republicans who opposed it and wanted to debate changes, preferring to address some of these loophole problems before passage.
Even WaPo said the bill needed tweaking before passage to prevent unintended consequences. Problem is, the Dems wouldn’t allow any debate on changes. More of their “my way or the highway” attitude.
A vote where McCain wasn’t present to vote for continue, or end, the debate.
BTW, from your sundry posts, I don’t know if you are American by birth, or if English is your second language. But some things to pocket for your future comments.
Chattel means personal property and was applicable, but spelled incorrectly. But then I wondered if you trying to say treating women as “cattle” in your post #88. Frankly, treating women either as cattle or chattel (not chattle) is unacceptable. Both expressions would have conveyed your opinions well. So you might want to add chattel to your bank of words.
Also, something futile is “in vain” (not vein). English can be a real pill about that stuff… here three words with multiple meanings. Vane (as in weather vane), vein (as in blood line like artery or vein) and vain (as in proud or futile). I believe English is considered one of the more difficult languages to learn because of these dual/multiple meanings.
Not trying to be condescending, mind you. Just would like to help you present your thoughts more cogently.
@MataHarleyThank you for the lesson, but if you had read the posts above the one you are correcting, you would see “chattel” was another person’s comment, and I was quoting him. You are right about vain, vein, though, you still got my point. But if you are going to correct me, take a look at the other posts, from the other users, it should keep you busy for awhile.
I messed up on the block quote thing, I think I will stick to my old fashion copy and paste.
@voter: Yes I am known for my typos. My mind goes faster than my fingers.
Ah yes, I see, Erika. My computer was down for 24 hours, and catching up on this thread is time consuming indeed. So I missed Stix’s comment, and it was prior to your learning to use the blockquotes (or b-quote). So I missed the fact it was a Stix repeat because of the visual presentation, separating his comments from yours.
Useage of the “blockquotes” (the yellow borders) is what makes it easy to see visually what is *other* people’s (or article) quotes, differentiating from your own ensuing comments.
i.e. use them to quote others, or a previous quote from yourself. It’s not generally used to enclose your entire comment. Highlight just what you want to appear in the yellow block.
And of course I got your points. I would say that most here agree that learning about heritage and other cultures is not a bad thing to teach children. Two things are important, tho. Make sure you are teaching them correctly. And make sure you are not indoctrinating “hate America” into the future generations. This country, despite all it’s human flaws, is still major cuts above other nations for civil rights.
Which is why most of us jumped on you for saying:
This is incorrect historically. Americans were not the slave traders doing the kidnapping. They were, however, purchasers of slaves in that era. Nor was that practice confined to just America (both pre American Revolution and post). And they also purchased English white women as well.
That practice by humans was despicable… but hardly confined only to America.
Well the weird thing, Stix, is that either “chattel” or “cattle” would have been appropriate. It was just hard to guess which one you meant, and that Erika repeated. LOL
And Erika… don’t give up on the b-quote. Experiment with it as I suggested… highlight the words you want in the yellow box first, then click on the b-quote. It will do the rest.