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Brandon
15 years ago
It occurred to me someone as unfunny as you might not be married. So it was your Sister….no….mom….No? Short bus, why are you making fun of retarded people?
Brandon
15 years ago
This website is ridiculous. I have been to tons of polictical websites, and this the only one I can think of where the “Authors” do a majority of the postings.
How boring.
Here’s an example:
Negative article criticizing Dems or Libs or whatever.
Arguing with you just isn’t sporting. It’s like hunting at a petting zoo, fishing with dynamite, or finding a liar amidst the anti-war crowd.
Brandon
15 years ago
Spoken like the pompous ass that you are. Now run along and read some Nietzsche. Who invited you into the mix anyway Anus? I believe I was talking too Wordsmith, but apparentl you guys enjoy ganging uo on a fella. How manly.
Brandon
15 years ago
I meant “to”, damn.
Brandon
15 years ago
Can I get a spell checker on aisle six? I’m up to my elbow in Anus and I keep mispelling my witty retorts. Also, he reads Nietzsche so watch out.
I’m a pompous ass? And who invited me? Who invited you? Skye mentioned me up above, I just came to see what was up.
If I could only convey to you how far off you are on the pompous thing. Go back to inventing friends who told you all the stories of how they killed people.
Brandon
15 years ago
You’re reaching Anus. Inventing friends? Yeah that’s what I’m doing. Can I get a cartoon cowboy?
Wow. You really are something special, aren’t you?
Brandon
15 years ago
That’s sixty posts, I think I’ve earned that set of steak knives. Soooo…..where do I pick them up?
Brandon
15 years ago
No nothing special and neither is you. I don’t take you, this website or myself that seriously. Everyone has their own perception of what reality is. There isn’t just one reality, but many. That’s why ten people can witness the same accident and still have ten different view points. Did the accident happen in one specific way? Yes it did, but each individual is incapable of seeing it in the same light. It’s the same with politics and war.
This site is nothing more than individuals whose opinions are based on mutual interpretations of reality. That’s your reality but not necessarily mine. You join together to try and disprove any dissenting opinions, regardless of whether they are true or not. You will always view the world through your particular lens. As such, it is impossible for me to do battle with your preconceived notions. Just as it would be futile for you to attempt the same with me.
So where does that leave us?
As an example, you say that other soldiers are calling Jon Turner and the others liars. What if it is they who are lying to protect themselves and Jon Turner is the only one to step forward? Ever thought about that?
I suppose if a woman was gang raped by six individuals, all of whom denied it, despite some physical evidence, you’d believe them over her. I wouldn’t. I’d see it differently that’s all.
I think were at an impasse.
MataHarley
15 years ago
Brandon, first off a trick for you in posting. When you can not see all the text box and submit buttons, change to the “Default” or “Classic” layout. (You’re generally viewing in “Aspire”) Then you’ll be able to post all you want. You’ll find the ability to switch in the right side bars, scrolling down.
After you switch, and you don’t see the selections to switch back, just clean your cookies out under “Tools/Internet Options” and refresh. You will come back up in “Aspire” layout.
Now… to your comments:
You might want to look up fascism. One of the characteristics of fascism is:Powerful and Continuing Nationalism: Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos….”
It may be you who has a misunderstanding of fascism. If you go to even a simple online dictionary version, you’ll see:
“a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.”
Most make the error is assuming only what they perceive is extreme right constitutes fascism. Yet extreme left is also fascist.
Jonah Goldberg’s has a book, trying to undo the piss poor education pounded into the latest generations’ heads… of which you must be a victim of. His definition is perhaps the best I’ve seen.
“Fascism is a religion of the state. It assumes the organic unity of the body politic and longs for a national leader attuned to the will of the people. It is totalitarian in that it views everything as political and holds that any action by the state is justified to achieve the common good. It takes responsibility for all aspects of life, including our health and well-being, and seeks to impose uniformity of thought and action, whether by force or through regulation and social pressure. Everything, including the economy and religion, must be aligned with its objectives. Any rival identity is part of the ‘problem’ and therefore defined as the enemy. I will argue that contemporary American liberalism embodies all of these aspects of fascism.”
Note what they both have in common. The notion that the state is above the individual, and that the state seeks control over every facet of personal life… healthy, financial, opportunity, etc.
National pride, such as flags, slogans, pins, are not a sign of fascism. No more than you are a fascist if you carry around a picture of your baby in your wallet. BTW, my parents are of the WWII generation, with Dad in the Army air corps. They were a generation proud of their country, and their unity…. exemplified by pledging allegience, flying flags, honoring veterans, and singing patriotic songs. Call that generation fascist in my presence and I promise I will deck you with all this ol’ lady is worth.
Then you said:
Millions of Iraqis aren’t going to let several thousand Sunni Al Qaeda members run there (you mean their, yes?) country.
Yet for over three decades, that minority of several thousand Sunni/Baathist did just that. The minority with the weaponry ran the country, and controlled it with fear, mass murders, and psuedo-elections.
However, I’m sure there would be more killing. The difference is WE wouldn’t be causing the death and destruction.
So the deaths are acceptable to you as long as we aren’t involved? Woof…. Another example of our self-absorbed, narcissistic society.
The problem isn’t a military one as I pointed out, it’s political and unless those soldiers want to run for public office…
You are leaping from one extreme to the other here. The problem is a combination of military, political and economics. Their military must be able to function. This entails budget allocation and dispensing of funds for weaponry and supplies.
Their budget allocation system is a patch work of old Saddam/new Iraq permanent laws. The old corrupt regime who knew the money ropes, bureaucratic redtape and laws, blew town as they were little more than accomplices to Saddam’s thuggery. The new guys are still on a learning curve. Running a central govt isn’t an easy task to learn, as evidenced by our own after over two centuries.
Once they have a functional and budgeted military that’s supplied, the political comes easier. They are functioning politically presently, with no more battles and no less grid locked than our own Congress. If they did not battle it out in the Assembly, it would not be an Arab democracy. The key is to battle it out legislatively, and not in the streets. They are getting there… slowly but surely.
It remains the purpose of our military to be at their backs until they are self sufficient, funded and supplied. And significant progress has been made to their abilities, as seen in Basra and Sadr City… tasks that once would have had to be done only by coalition troops.
Our soldiers are not nation building. They are assisting a nation who is rebuilding itself… a nation filled with those who most have never known anything but oppression and fear. Your friends are correct. This can be won, and a new Iraq can emerge and grow. But not if citizens attempt to dictate foreign policy and Iraq’s future from their Lazy Boys in US suburbia.
Collateral damage is always regrettable. However collateral damage today compared to previous wars is considerably less. It will be impossible to have a war without some innocents being killed.
However it is not our soldiers targeting innocents as part of their warfare. Our numbers of fallen are still but a small percentage of the Iraqis who have fallen. As long as they feel their new country is worth fighting for, the US cannot deny an ally in the region assistance. Period.
No one suggests that our military doesn’t have some bad apples. As long as humans walk the planet, there are a$$holes in our midst. However it can safely be said that the majority of our military are superior in morality and intent to those that seek to thrust Islamic law onto a country who has voted for something else.
And stop calling the bad guys AQ… they are not the only enemy with which to be concerned.
No, I would believe the person willing to go on record. And as yet, I have seen no sworn statement from any of them. Have you?
And why would he step forward? Because everyone of them that comes forward y’all parade through the streets as heroes. When you start doing that for the guys that said “I just did my job over there” then that will make it all equal and I will put more credibility in their stories. Since you haven’t bothered to read my posts detailiing it though, I don’t expect you to know that statements from the IVAW Chair Mejia are self-disputing. For instance his “running a prison camp” where he was there for 6 hours in one interview, and 6 days in the next.
In your world with the tear in the time/space fabric, apparently both are possible.
Mike’s A… I have to “log in” for editing? Well, I’ll give it a whirl here. Logged in now.
BTW, I have your response on this thread in my email, but it’s not showing up on my view on this thread here at the moment. How weird is all this???
Brandon
15 years ago
Jonah Golberg? Doughy pant load you mean. I’ve read his take on fascism and it’s nothing more than political posturing. Sorry but that’s HIS perception.
I’ll do you one better:
Dr. Lawrence Britt (a political scientist and not a pundit) has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism – Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights – Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of “need.” The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause – The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
4. Supremacy of the Military – Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
5. Rampant Sexism – The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.
6. Controlled Mass Media – Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
7. Obsession with National Security – Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined – Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government’s policies or actions.
9. Corporate Power is Protected – The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
10. Labor Power is Suppressed – Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts – Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment – Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption – Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
14. Fraudulent Elections – Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
Moving on.
I’m not addressing you point by point because it’s futile. I will say that I haven’t referred to all bad guys as AQ. I realize there are numerous militias (and militias within militias) and foreign fighters that make up the insurgency. Those are mostly national groups that simply want as out of their country. There is a difference between National and international terrorism. Oh and a lot of Iraqis and foreign journalists refer to the war as “the occupation.”
Just FYI.
Do I really have to go through this with six different guys? I addressed issues with Wordsmith several times so I’m not going to do point by point again.
Hey GUYS, why not just let one of you address my comments. You all basically think and believe the same thing so why not keep it simple.
Does it really take Wordsmith, Mike, Curt, Thus Spake Ortner, Aye Chihuahua, and MataHarley to argue with just me?
Talk about team spirit. Do you guys all feel safer in numbers?
And Mike, I was having a problem with your comments box but thanks for the concern about my pithy and disjointed replies.
Is that your idea of right wing civility?
One more thing, do you use gel or mousse? I gotta know.
And is that your real hair?
Okay that was two, but your hair looks weird in you picture.
I’m just saying.
Brandon
15 years ago
Thus said:
“And why would he step forward? Because everyone of them that comes forward y’all parade through the streets as heroes”.
Who are y’all? I haven’t been to any parades lately but thanks for getting it wrong, AGAIN.
“When you start doing that for the guys that said “I just did my job over there” then that will make it all equal and I will put more credibility in their stories. Since you haven’t bothered to read my posts detailing it though, I don’t expect you to know that statements from the IVAW Chair Mejia are self-disputing. For instance his “running a prison camp” where he was there for 6 hours in one interview, and 6 days in the next”.
I have read SOME of your posts. I was remembering an event that happened between my brother and I when we were teenagers and our recollections of the same event had two different interpretations. Imagine that. Your reply did nothing to dispel that notion of differences in perception but good effort.
So you get every detail right when you recalling a story there guy? I find that hard to believe.
“In your world with the tear in the time/space fabric, apparently both are possible”.
Cute. Ummmm…..so my example (which has actually been used in studies) of different perceptions is not correct? Then why do cops sometimes say that eye witness accounts are often the most unreliable evidence? Could it be the difference in Perception?
Naw, that couldn’t be it.
You want so desperately to disprove these soldiers that it doesn’t matter what they say. Move on.
1) You should have seen the slobbering over them at the Progressive caucus and at WSI. No parade, but hero worshipping their “courage” nonetheless.
2) When stating that an event “changed your life” one would properly be expected to remember if said event (which occured 4 years ago) transpired over 6 hours or 6 days.
3) Perception is all fine, but you think that these stories can all be chalked up to perception? You either killed an old lady with a Mk19 grenade launching machine gun, or you did not.
4) If soldiers are guilty of these things, I want them punished, if these are lies, I want the liars silenced. Since all of us in uniform are maligned by these stories, true or not, I want the veracity confirmed or debunked.
Brandon, I will say this, I have a son older than you, and thank heavens he was not raised with your manners. Or do you only lose civility skills when you sit behind a keyboard?
I see you ignored the Merriam dictionary definition and decided to choose your own source. His article was his opinion of what regimes had in common. It does not constitute a definition, but does reflect his views. Oddly enough, not even an original thought for one purported to have a PhD. It was based on a prior article called Hallmarks of a Fascist Regime… located on Hippy.com. BTW, next time just post the link. Easier on us all.
Britt’s “14 Characteristics” was published by Free Inquirty magazine, the medium of the Council for Secular Humanism. A flashy organization of globalists who apparently use science as their God, and demonstrates strong tendencies (if not outright) to be aethiests… all of which may explain your tasteless “prayer” humor earlier, and your penchant for accepting one poly-sci pundit’s opine over another’s. If you think he is operating without an agenda, you are the fool you appear.
Why not wander back over to blatherwatch, Sparky.. where your insights are heralded as nothing less than magnificent? Talk about only getting along with those that are in accord…. can you say “Pot, kettle”?
BTW, Mike’s A… still having problems editing. Screen either:
1: redraws with a black veil and locks up or
2: just locks up
Bizarre… was just fine yesterday. I should try a reboot next…
“Oddly enough, not even an original thought for one purported to have a PhD.”
Brandon claims to have one? And he called me pompous?
Oh well, I mean I do have a JD, but come on!
MataHarley
15 years ago
Lawrence Britt with the PhD, Thus Spake… I think we can tell by Brandon’s scribblings and focus he doesn’t possess that diploma. However Britt’s article was a takeoff of the Hippy.com article. That’s why I said, not even an original thought. Just used bigger words and less weed to get his point across, I guess… LOL
Edit Problem Updates: I rebooted. Still the only way to edit is to open the new “Click to Edit” icon in a new browser. When I try opening it in the same window, same “black veil” look or merely a freeze for awhile. I’ve tried this in all layout versions,
BTW. All the problems started when this new “Click to Edit”/Ajax Edit comments icon appeared instead of the post getting highlighted when you click on it. I wondered if it’s a pop up blocker, but nothing appears at my menu bar to say anything is getting blocked…. oh well.
Uddercha0s
15 years ago
So does anyone want to take those 14 Characteristics of Facism and show examples of the Democratic party in action so that only one person will address Mr. Asshat? I’m sure most of the points could be addressed here in the archives of FA.
Count me out, Udder. I’d find a hang nail more worthy of attention.
Brandon
15 years ago
So you guys are seniors? As far cas manners go Thus, offering a first name is good manners. Still hiding behind your Monikers and still ganging up on little old me. How brave you both are.
Uddercha0s
15 years ago
Haha, I hear you Mata. I’ve been watching and laughing. I need to go to voice blogging or something. By the time I get everything researched, typed and formatted, it is old news.
I’m actually quite close to your age but again you guys like to make incorrect assumptions so I’m not surprised.
When you act like a 12 year old, it’s a logical assumption to make, no?
Wordsmith is a grownup; does he really need your help?
It’s just little old’ me. Do we really need the gang bang? Wordsmith can’t fight his own battles?
What is this? Westside Story? Are we rumbling?
Brandon #35:
Wordsmith
You’re absolutely right. I didn’t answer your questions, so now I will. I’ll address them point by point. N’kay.
Now you won’t have to make false assertions anymore and as a result would sound so ignorant.
Thanks for not making me sound ignorant. Couldn’t do it without you.
“No. We’re criticizing those peace fascists who behave as anything other than “peaceful” and tolerant of diverging points of view”.
Peace fascists? Really. You might want to look up fascism. One of the characteristics of fascism is:
Powerful and Continuing Nationalism: Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
Yeah, yeah, yeah….you’re not the first to point out the definition of “fascism”. I’ve done it myself. You just don’t like my clever play on words.
Fascists also suppress dissenting views through aggressive tactics, and champions “cults of unity, energy and purity”. I’d say not all peace activists are peace fascists; but for the Karen Porters of the anti-war movement who are intolerant of opposition views and resort to aggressive means to stifle the voices of those opposed to them, it’s an apt term.
Remember the woman in Skye’s video was calling the other guy a traitor because he didn’t support the war. Sounds fascist to me.
It’s inflammatory, sure. But a verbal slur/insult/name-call should not be met by a proponent for peace, by attacking a woman who was not the one calling him traitor.
So, my question again to you is: Do you condemn or condone his physical assault on skye?
“We’re advocating for peace through victory. Tell us how America and Iraq would be better off by abandoning a fledgling democracy to chaos and al-Qaeda”?
At some point we have to let the Iraqis fend for themselves.
Agreed!
You don’t think the Iraqis have been trying to do just that? Fend for themselves? Many of those thousands you lament have been those serving in the Iraqi government, in the police and security forces, fighting for the soul of their country against those have nothing to offer, except chaos and discord.
Do you think after 30 years of living under a brutal dictator, a traumatic insurgency that disrupts rebuilding activities, we’re going to sew stability over night? Apparently, some Iraqis actually thought just that: that the U.S. was so powerful, we could just magically snap our fingers and create daffodils and fuzzy bunnies and prosperity.
It takes about 4 years for our best officers to be trained at West Point. All officers must have a minimum of 4 year degrees. It takes Iraqi officers 3 years of training before they can join the force. We’ve been in Iraq for 5 years.
Al Qaeda would be wiped out by Shia majority. Millions of Iraqis aren’t going to let several thousand Sunni Al Qaeda members run there country. That’s like saying that the Mob would take over the US. The Mob has money, weapons and power, but they could never take over and neither would Al Qaeda.
You might be right. But if we’re responsible for “creating the mess” and misery in Iraq, how dishonorable, how irresponsible would it be to pack our bags and go home? Would the suffering increase, or decrease?
And how does even a perceived defeat, make America safer? bin Laden gained notoriety and “jihadis” from his perceived victory at the Lion’s Den over the Soviets in Afghanistan. Nothing quite like the perception of success to up the recruitment.
Silly man.
Breath mint?
“Do you think the suffering will be greater of lesser if we leave, prematurely?
Depends, according to Michael Ware and Nir Rosen much of the ethnic cleansing has already taken place. However, I’m sure there would be more killing. The difference is WE wouldn’t be causing the death and destruction.
Is that what we are doing? Causing death and destruction? Who blows up mosques, hospitals, schools and delivers carbombs and homicide bombers into market places? And which side is working with the Iraqi government to rebuild the infrastructure to make life better for all Iraqis?
“I’d say 12 years was long enough. Saddam was a cancer upon the world. How much longer would you allow him to metastasize before offering up treatment? Better sooner or later? Was he a danger or not? Did we have justification or not?”
Absolutely we were justified. Next question!
So you still believe in the invasion; just not the occupation? Then you are in agreement with the original plans of Rumsfeld and Bush, which was to model Iraq after Afghanistan. Officials within the CIA and State, however, diverged from the one pushed forth by the White House and Pentagon.
“Should I have?”
Yes sparky, you should have. It’s important to see the horrors of war considering you’ve never been in one.
There’s merit in that. But what makes you think I don’t already realize just how awful war is? That I lack the ability to empathize? What do you say to those who have been in war, yet are opposed to your views? They aren’t here at the moment to speak, so you’re stuck with me.
Have YOU been in a war?
“Have you listened to the numerous soldiers who don’t agree with them, or you?”
Yes I have. Of course they think they can win. Would you want a soldier who didn’t think victory was attainable?
Then you haven’t really been listening to them (those who disagree with you). It goes beyond just those soldiers who are optimistic of their own prowess and who are fortified by a warrior’s will not to give up.
The problem isn’t a military one as I pointed out, it’s political and unless those soldiers want to run for public office, there’s not much they can do to change that.
Without the military, in the face of insurgents and saboteurs who don’t want to see Iraq democratized, the hopes of political conciliation to push forward goes from having a chance, to not having a chance.
Again, reality is that even in the absence of an insurgency, rebuilding a country is an enormous challenge that won’t happen overnight. The Iraqi parliament has passed more legislation than our own 110th Pelosified Congress.
Do YOU think any good comes out of war?
Yes I do.
Good. Now I know I’m not dealing with a pacifist.
“Do you think our soldiers are terrorizing innocent Iraqis and children?”
Based on what I’ve read, been told, seen pictures of, I’d say some are. Not all but some.
Out of around 150 thousand soldiers, the percentage of atrocities being committed are…..? What? And are we prosecuting them? Do the actions of a few delegitimize our NOBLE efforts in Iraq?
“Do you not care about the children AND the soldiers?”
Absolutely I care about the soldiers. That’s why I want them home. they’ve done there duty, eliminated Saddam, his two sons, much of Al Qaeda. Why are we asking them to Nation build?
Historically, our military has often found itself in nation-building, governmental roles. This goes for small wars, not just the big ones.
You’re right: Mission was accomplished. But things don’t occur in a vacuum. One of our biggest mistakes in Afghanistan, was to leave behind a vacuum for the Taliban to fill, after the Soviets left.
The responsible thing, is to pick up where life leaves off. The original post-war plans did not iron out. Following the pottery barn rule, since we “broke it”, we have an obligation to “fix it”. Which is better for America: leaving behind a successful, stable Iraq, or leaving it behind in ruins? If you think America’s standing and image in the world was harmed by the Bush Administration, how would we look then? How does abandonment and the perception of defeat make America any safer from encouraging the bin Laden charge that America is a paper tiger who hasn’t got the intestinal fortitude to sustain the losses needed in order to win wars and win battles? Stalin pointed out how America couldn’t subdue little Korea, and after a few thousand dead, we were already weeping.
The strategic goals of democratizing Iraq was ever a gamble. But if it succeeds, if we have the will to withstand the setbacks and hardships, what are the potential ripple-effect rewards? It’s a story without an ending.
“Violence is horrible. But how do you stop violence against innocents? Hating violence and war is not the same thing as advocating for peace.”
Advocating peace through violence isn’t always the answer either. Sometimes peaceful means win; just ask Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Jimmy Carter (Egyptian-Israeli cease fire) and JESUS CHRIST.
Of course. But have we truly been practicing cowboy diplomacy? I think John Bolton stated things very well, here:
On one side are those who believe that negotiations should be used to resolve international disputes 99% of the time. That is where I am, and where I think Mr. McCain is. On the other side are those like Mr. Obama, who apparently want to use negotiations 100% of the time. It is the 100%-ers who suffer from an obsession that is naïve and dangerous.
Negotiation is not a policy. It is a technique. Saying that one favors negotiation with, say, Iran, has no more intellectual content than saying one favors using a spoon. For what? Under what circumstances? With what objectives? On these specifics, Mr. Obama has been consistently sketchy.
Like all human activity, negotiation has costs and benefits. If only benefits were involved, then it would be hard to quarrel with the “what can we lose?” mantra one hears so often. In fact, the costs and potential downsides are real, and not to be ignored.
When the U.S. negotiates with “terrorists and radicals,” it gives them legitimacy, a precious and tangible political asset. Thus, even Mr. Obama criticized former President Jimmy Carter for his recent meetings with Hamas leaders. Meeting with leaders of state sponsors of terrorism such as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or Kim Jong Il is also a mistake. State sponsors use others as surrogates, but they are just as much terrorists as those who actually carry out the dastardly acts. Legitimacy and international acceptability are qualities terrorists crave, and should therefore not be conferred casually, if at all.
Moreover, negotiations – especially those “without precondition” as Mr. Obama has specifically advocated – consume time, another precious asset that terrorists and rogue leaders prize. Here, President Bush’s reference to Hitler was particularly apt: While the diplomats of European democracies played with their umbrellas, the Nazis were rearming and expanding their industrial power.
In today’s world of weapons of mass destruction, time is again a precious asset, one almost invariably on the side of the would-be proliferators. Time allows them to perfect the complex science and technology necessary to sustain nuclear weapons and missile programs, and provides far greater opportunity for concealing their activities from our ability to detect and, if necessary, destroy them.
Iran has conclusively proven how to use negotiations to this end. After five years of negotiations with the Europeans, with the Bush administration’s approbation throughout, the only result is that Iran is five years closer to having nuclear weapons. North Korea has also used the Six-Party Talks to gain time, testing its first nuclear weapon in 2006, all the while cloning its Yongbyon reactor in the Syrian desert.
I’d say 12 years of an extended war was long enough, and you apparently agree with me.
Since violence hasn’t ceased in Iraq, post-war, how do you think that the methods of “Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Jimmy Carter (Egyptian-Israeli cease fire) and JESUS CHRIST” would fair in dealing with former baathists, insurgents, criminals, foreign fighters (including Iranians), al-Qaeda, and Islamic holy warriors? Do they wish to sit down with the peace pipe and talk?
We have negotiated, where negotiations are appropriate and applicable (re: Sunni Sheiks, Salvation Fronts and Concerned Citizens).
Momentum’s on our side right now. Why snatch defeat from the jaws of a possible “victory”?
“Are we targeting innocent Iraqis, or are the insurgents, foreign fighters, and al-Qaeda terrorists the ones targeting them?”
Ever heard of collateral damage? Some of those soldiers who testified, and my friend who served said civilians were sometimes were targeted. Again, THEIR WORDS NOT MINE. GOT THAT SPARKY?
Lol…you must mean business when you find it necessary to type in capslock.
I’m sorry, but I’m deeply skeptical of the motives and clarity of the IVAW soldiers to make an assessment of the overall geo-political strategy of our presence in Iraq, in part due to some of what skye and Ortner have stated. Assuming the veracity of their “testimony”, anecdotal experiences don’t always see the bigger picture.
Were John Kerry and his Winter Soldiers honest as well as accurate regarding Vietnam? And was it a good thing, that they got what they wanted, by having us abandon our South Vietnamese allies, the way we did? What were the repercussions? How did it affect America’s image and standing? Were we honorable in our abandonment, after signing a written pledge to offer military support, should North Vietnam not honor their pledge agreement, and invade the South?
And lastly a comment. You must be completely out of your mind if you honestly believe that soldiers never commit atrocities.
Now who’s trying to put words in who’s mouth?
The reason the Winter Soldiers didn’t testify under oath is because I’m sure they didn’t want to be charged with War crimes. In there eyes they were doing their duty. You know following orders. I’m sure you also believe that there is no such thing as police brutality.
My sense, is that those like yourself are quick to Murthafy Marines before they’ve been given their day in court. Quick to suspect the worst, and last to give our soldiers the benefit of the doubt.
So yeah, I’m suspicious of the Scott Beauchamps and Jesse MacBeths.
How is fantasy land by the way?
From where I’m standing? Looks overpopulated with moonbats. How’s it feel being there?
Brandon #38:
Thus Spake….ooh that’s just a silly name. So you were at the WSI, great. Are you suggesting that all of them are lying? Why would they lie? If you want to look into their statements go right ahead. Why don’t YOU let me know what you find out. I’m not a professional blogger who has loads of time to do resaerch.
No; just a 36 year old who has an inordinate amount of time on his hands.
Brandon #39:
Yeah you guys support the troops, only the ones who share your opinions. That’s the difference between us. I support all of them regardless of whether they have the same beliefs as I do. Whether they’re Democrat, Republican, Christian, atheist, black, white, red, yellow.
I’m not accusing our soldiers of atrocities; I’m simply taking THEIR word for it. I guess my friend is also a liar.
Wow, you guys really are out there.
N’kay?
This is part of why it is so amusing that you seem to paint yourself as a “free-thinker”. Did you take the time to actually research skye’s links or the merits of Ortner’s points addressed in his link? No. Just childish belittling of his user handle.
You willfully ignore the ones who don’t speak of atrocities, but are all too willing to believe the ones who do speak of it.
Do you feel those atrocities are epidemic? Or aberrations that deserve 31 consecutive frontpage stories in the NYTimes, ala abu Ghraib?
Are you giving the issue proper perspective and weight? Or holding a magnifying glass to a blemish, to make the Arab world see nothing but our blemishes?
Ortner #40:
I doubt you are serious, but this stuff here will give you an idea of my take on the whole fiasco:
I doubt Brandon is serious. He doesn’t strike me as one after the truth, but one holding a partisan agenda. Otherwise, he’d welcome your links and disagreement, rather than deliver irritated insults. Case in point:
Thus Spoke Anus
No I haven’t read Nietzsche, but clearly you have. Wow, because of that you must be twice as smart as the regular guy. I’m way out of my league because you read Nietzsche. I shouldn’t even respond because you might quote Nietzsche ….and I don’t know if my tiny brain could stand to listen to a pompous blowhard quote a boring German Philosopher…..aaaarrrrghhhhhh.
Asshat? I prefer Assclown.
Hey Mike, this your idea of civility?
You’re a real piece of work. This is another example of your incivility and questions as to your age. Ortner brought up Nietzsche, because you made an unnecessary attack on his username, rather than engage him on the substance of his comment.
Brandon #46:
GANGBANG……………….I’m gonna be sore in the morning.
You guys should start a gang. You could be like the Jets from West Side story. Can any of you sing and dance?
When you’re a jet……..badahbadah….now you sing…..now Curt……..Mike I can’t hear you….I know you have a silky smooth voice…..Anus, now you….yeah.
Yeah, we’re tag-team wrestling here. Grow up! You’re commenting on a conservative blog with multiple authors and….*gasp*…conservative readers. People are free to comment as they please. This isn’t a one-on-one rumble in the bronx. But I’m sure it makes you feel good to play up your persecution-complex. You stepped into it, so you deal with it. I’d love to pair you up with Philly Steve, though. You two would make quite the dynamic duo.
Brandon #47:
What do you want me too address? You were there and I wasn’t? I beleive you have the leverage. You’re saying that some of them are lying so I guess they’re liars.
Anything else?
And you’re the one who told me I’ve never been in a war, so my opinions are supposedly worthless ones to have. Rather than crawl into your shell, engage Ortner on the substance of his links.
Ortner #49:
Did you get to this site when the short bus got lost this morning?
Stop drooling on the window and take the bike helmet off, you look ridiculous.
LMAO!
Brandon#52:
This website is ridiculous. I have been to tons of polictical websites, and this the only one I can think of where the “Authors” do a majority of the postings.
You obviously haven’t been around here before, have you?
Brandon #63:
Everyone has their own perception of what reality is. There isn’t just one reality, but many. That’s why ten people can witness the same accident and still have ten different view points. Did the accident happen in one specific way? Yes it did, but each individual is incapable of seeing it in the same light. It’s the same with politics and war.
So basically, you’re just parroting what I pointed out early on. Thank you.
Mike #66:
Brandon: Could you limit yourself to one pithy comment in reply and avoid this minute by minute stream of consciousness rambling?
Yes, Brandon….try and be more like me.
I know it’s rather ambitious, but the joy is in the journey, not the destination, which we know is beyond your reach to attain.
MataHarley
15 years ago
Not that I expect you to address me in the future, Brandon, but to you, my first name is “Maam”… the same address you should use if you pass a stranger on a narrow street. Thank you for asking.
Brandon
15 years ago
So umm…does this make your penis larger or just make you think it’s larger. Again just curious.
Brandon
15 years ago
Mataharley, I am honestly sorry if I offended you. It’s not my thing to pick on a woman. I thought you were a man (wrong assumption-see Wordsmith I can admit when I’m wrong) I won’t address you rudely anymore. I’ll save it for the men.
So umm…does this make your penis larger or just make you think it’s larger. Again just curious.
Does it matter? So far you’ve been shooting blanks.
Brandon
15 years ago
Wordsmith, are you a woman too? And no I don’t condone what happened to Skye. That jerk was way out of line. Picking on or assaulting a woman is never okay with me.
Brandon
15 years ago
I’ve been shooting blanks about as long as long as you have which would be what…….about ten years now? Seriosly, answer the penis question. I’m childish? This website ius liitered with cartoon cowboys. I thought this was achildren’s website at first. Do you guys have nicknames for each other?
When did this turn to talk of penises?
Is “penises” the plural of penis? Should it ever be pluralized?
This whole thread turned as gay as Lance Bass and Liberace dancing the macerena while Brandon drooled in the corner.
Brandon
15 years ago
Oh come now wordsmith, you didn’t write that all by yourself did you now? You used that walkie Talkie to get help from the other cowboys didn’t you? Come on admit it. Experience puberty, gosh that’s original.Back to your penis………
Turning childish was Brandon’s way of making a graceful exit from the substance put forth. It’s his way of “saving face”, without actually waving a white flag and admit he’s not interested in engaging you, or I, or anyone else on substance.
Brandon
15 years ago
Lance who? You’re right I’ll stop talking about how small Wordsmith’s penis is. It’s just that big tough guys like him are usually overcompensating for something. Maybe he’s just really short.
Is that your perception of me from everything I wrote? “Big tough guy”?
Says more about you than me.
Brandon
15 years ago
No it’s my way of saying I’ll address one of you and not six or seven. Trust me I’m could care less about saving face with any of you. You actually addressed some of the same things the rest of the cowboys did. How many times do I need to have the same argument? How many times do I need to be asked the same questions.
The difference between you and me is that unlike you I don’t need a posse to back me up. Unlike you I don’t hide behind a Moniker and unlike you I have a set of balls.
No one’s hiding behind “a posse”. You’re just too much of a moron to understand how this works: people leave comments, people are free to address said comment. It’s as simple as that. No one’s calling backup; the only one behaving like a whiny bitch is you.
Aye Chihuahua
15 years ago
Stay classy Brandon.
You’re an excellent representative of your species.
Unlike you I don’t hide behind a Moniker and unlike you I have a set of balls.
“Brandon” is as good a moniker as any. Give me your last name. Give me your address and phone number.
It’s far easier for you to find out who I am, than the other way around.
Prove to me that your raisins are the size of grapefruits. Quit hiding behind the name “brandon”.
Brandon
15 years ago
No, that’s how your profile describes you:
“Currently a personal trainer and gymnastics instructor, wordsmith is looking at a career change into the military.”. I thought that made you sound like a tough guy. You aren’t?
It occurred to me someone as unfunny as you might not be married. So it was your Sister….no….mom….No? Short bus, why are you making fun of retarded people?
This website is ridiculous. I have been to tons of polictical websites, and this the only one I can think of where the “Authors” do a majority of the postings.
How boring.
Here’s an example:
Negative article criticizing Dems or Libs or whatever.
Comments:
I agree.
Yes sir so do I.
Great post you guys.
Yeah I loved it so much I want seconds.
Yeah!
Arguing with you just isn’t sporting. It’s like hunting at a petting zoo, fishing with dynamite, or finding a liar amidst the anti-war crowd.
Spoken like the pompous ass that you are. Now run along and read some Nietzsche. Who invited you into the mix anyway Anus? I believe I was talking too Wordsmith, but apparentl you guys enjoy ganging uo on a fella. How manly.
I meant “to”, damn.
Can I get a spell checker on aisle six? I’m up to my elbow in Anus and I keep mispelling my witty retorts. Also, he reads Nietzsche so watch out.
I’m a pompous ass? And who invited me? Who invited you? Skye mentioned me up above, I just came to see what was up.
If I could only convey to you how far off you are on the pompous thing. Go back to inventing friends who told you all the stories of how they killed people.
You’re reaching Anus. Inventing friends? Yeah that’s what I’m doing. Can I get a cartoon cowboy?
What’s your real name?
Real name Anus?
Wow. You really are something special, aren’t you?
That’s sixty posts, I think I’ve earned that set of steak knives. Soooo…..where do I pick them up?
No nothing special and neither is you. I don’t take you, this website or myself that seriously. Everyone has their own perception of what reality is. There isn’t just one reality, but many. That’s why ten people can witness the same accident and still have ten different view points. Did the accident happen in one specific way? Yes it did, but each individual is incapable of seeing it in the same light. It’s the same with politics and war.
This site is nothing more than individuals whose opinions are based on mutual interpretations of reality. That’s your reality but not necessarily mine. You join together to try and disprove any dissenting opinions, regardless of whether they are true or not. You will always view the world through your particular lens. As such, it is impossible for me to do battle with your preconceived notions. Just as it would be futile for you to attempt the same with me.
So where does that leave us?
As an example, you say that other soldiers are calling Jon Turner and the others liars. What if it is they who are lying to protect themselves and Jon Turner is the only one to step forward? Ever thought about that?
I suppose if a woman was gang raped by six individuals, all of whom denied it, despite some physical evidence, you’d believe them over her. I wouldn’t. I’d see it differently that’s all.
I think were at an impasse.
Brandon, first off a trick for you in posting. When you can not see all the text box and submit buttons, change to the “Default” or “Classic” layout. (You’re generally viewing in “Aspire”) Then you’ll be able to post all you want. You’ll find the ability to switch in the right side bars, scrolling down.
After you switch, and you don’t see the selections to switch back, just clean your cookies out under “Tools/Internet Options” and refresh. You will come back up in “Aspire” layout.
Now… to your comments:
It may be you who has a misunderstanding of fascism. If you go to even a simple online dictionary version, you’ll see:
Most make the error is assuming only what they perceive is extreme right constitutes fascism. Yet extreme left is also fascist.
Jonah Goldberg’s has a book, trying to undo the piss poor education pounded into the latest generations’ heads… of which you must be a victim of. His definition is perhaps the best I’ve seen.
Note what they both have in common. The notion that the state is above the individual, and that the state seeks control over every facet of personal life… healthy, financial, opportunity, etc.
National pride, such as flags, slogans, pins, are not a sign of fascism. No more than you are a fascist if you carry around a picture of your baby in your wallet. BTW, my parents are of the WWII generation, with Dad in the Army air corps. They were a generation proud of their country, and their unity…. exemplified by pledging allegience, flying flags, honoring veterans, and singing patriotic songs. Call that generation fascist in my presence and I promise I will deck you with all this ol’ lady is worth.
Then you said:
Yet for over three decades, that minority of several thousand Sunni/Baathist did just that. The minority with the weaponry ran the country, and controlled it with fear, mass murders, and psuedo-elections.
So the deaths are acceptable to you as long as we aren’t involved? Woof…. Another example of our self-absorbed, narcissistic society.
You are leaping from one extreme to the other here. The problem is a combination of military, political and economics. Their military must be able to function. This entails budget allocation and dispensing of funds for weaponry and supplies.
Their budget allocation system is a patch work of old Saddam/new Iraq permanent laws. The old corrupt regime who knew the money ropes, bureaucratic redtape and laws, blew town as they were little more than accomplices to Saddam’s thuggery. The new guys are still on a learning curve. Running a central govt isn’t an easy task to learn, as evidenced by our own after over two centuries.
Once they have a functional and budgeted military that’s supplied, the political comes easier. They are functioning politically presently, with no more battles and no less grid locked than our own Congress. If they did not battle it out in the Assembly, it would not be an Arab democracy. The key is to battle it out legislatively, and not in the streets. They are getting there… slowly but surely.
It remains the purpose of our military to be at their backs until they are self sufficient, funded and supplied. And significant progress has been made to their abilities, as seen in Basra and Sadr City… tasks that once would have had to be done only by coalition troops.
Our soldiers are not nation building. They are assisting a nation who is rebuilding itself… a nation filled with those who most have never known anything but oppression and fear. Your friends are correct. This can be won, and a new Iraq can emerge and grow. But not if citizens attempt to dictate foreign policy and Iraq’s future from their Lazy Boys in US suburbia.
Collateral damage is always regrettable. However collateral damage today compared to previous wars is considerably less. It will be impossible to have a war without some innocents being killed.
However it is not our soldiers targeting innocents as part of their warfare. Our numbers of fallen are still but a small percentage of the Iraqis who have fallen. As long as they feel their new country is worth fighting for, the US cannot deny an ally in the region assistance. Period.
No one suggests that our military doesn’t have some bad apples. As long as humans walk the planet, there are a$$holes in our midst. However it can safely be said that the majority of our military are superior in morality and intent to those that seek to thrust Islamic law onto a country who has voted for something else.
And stop calling the bad guys AQ… they are not the only enemy with which to be concerned.
No, I would believe the person willing to go on record. And as yet, I have seen no sworn statement from any of them. Have you?
And why would he step forward? Because everyone of them that comes forward y’all parade through the streets as heroes. When you start doing that for the guys that said “I just did my job over there” then that will make it all equal and I will put more credibility in their stories. Since you haven’t bothered to read my posts detailiing it though, I don’t expect you to know that statements from the IVAW Chair Mejia are self-disputing. For instance his “running a prison camp” where he was there for 6 hours in one interview, and 6 days in the next.
In your world with the tear in the time/space fabric, apparently both are possible.
Brandon: Could you limit yourself to one pithy comment in reply and avoid this minute by minute stream of consciousness rambling?
If you do have a point to make, it’s best to do so briefly in a well thought out comment.
Frankly, I doubt too many people will bother to read the disjointed replies you left above.
You basically lost any argument you might have wanted to make with the filibuster above.
Thus Spake… “combat veterans who could be in MENSA but choose to drink beer instead.” LOL
Hat’s off to you, guy.
Well thank you! We’re an odd collective of combat vets who just happened to have all served together at one point or another.
Mike’s A… I have to “log in” for editing? Well, I’ll give it a whirl here. Logged in now.
BTW, I have your response on this thread in my email, but it’s not showing up on my view on this thread here at the moment. How weird is all this???
Jonah Golberg? Doughy pant load you mean. I’ve read his take on fascism and it’s nothing more than political posturing. Sorry but that’s HIS perception.
I’ll do you one better:
Dr. Lawrence Britt (a political scientist and not a pundit) has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism – Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights – Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of “need.” The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause – The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
4. Supremacy of the Military – Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
5. Rampant Sexism – The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.
6. Controlled Mass Media – Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
7. Obsession with National Security – Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined – Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government’s policies or actions.
9. Corporate Power is Protected – The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
10. Labor Power is Suppressed – Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts – Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment – Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption – Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
14. Fraudulent Elections – Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
Moving on.
I’m not addressing you point by point because it’s futile. I will say that I haven’t referred to all bad guys as AQ. I realize there are numerous militias (and militias within militias) and foreign fighters that make up the insurgency. Those are mostly national groups that simply want as out of their country. There is a difference between National and international terrorism. Oh and a lot of Iraqis and foreign journalists refer to the war as “the occupation.”
Just FYI.
Do I really have to go through this with six different guys? I addressed issues with Wordsmith several times so I’m not going to do point by point again.
Hey GUYS, why not just let one of you address my comments. You all basically think and believe the same thing so why not keep it simple.
Does it really take Wordsmith, Mike, Curt, Thus Spake Ortner, Aye Chihuahua, and MataHarley to argue with just me?
Talk about team spirit. Do you guys all feel safer in numbers?
And Mike, I was having a problem with your comments box but thanks for the concern about my pithy and disjointed replies.
Is that your idea of right wing civility?
One more thing, do you use gel or mousse? I gotta know.
And is that your real hair?
Okay that was two, but your hair looks weird in you picture.
I’m just saying.
Thus said:
“And why would he step forward? Because everyone of them that comes forward y’all parade through the streets as heroes”.
Who are y’all? I haven’t been to any parades lately but thanks for getting it wrong, AGAIN.
“When you start doing that for the guys that said “I just did my job over there” then that will make it all equal and I will put more credibility in their stories. Since you haven’t bothered to read my posts detailing it though, I don’t expect you to know that statements from the IVAW Chair Mejia are self-disputing. For instance his “running a prison camp” where he was there for 6 hours in one interview, and 6 days in the next”.
I have read SOME of your posts. I was remembering an event that happened between my brother and I when we were teenagers and our recollections of the same event had two different interpretations. Imagine that. Your reply did nothing to dispel that notion of differences in perception but good effort.
So you get every detail right when you recalling a story there guy? I find that hard to believe.
“In your world with the tear in the time/space fabric, apparently both are possible”.
Cute. Ummmm…..so my example (which has actually been used in studies) of different perceptions is not correct? Then why do cops sometimes say that eye witness accounts are often the most unreliable evidence? Could it be the difference in Perception?
Naw, that couldn’t be it.
You want so desperately to disprove these soldiers that it doesn’t matter what they say. Move on.
Geesh.
Still didn’t get that name.
1) You should have seen the slobbering over them at the Progressive caucus and at WSI. No parade, but hero worshipping their “courage” nonetheless.
2) When stating that an event “changed your life” one would properly be expected to remember if said event (which occured 4 years ago) transpired over 6 hours or 6 days.
3) Perception is all fine, but you think that these stories can all be chalked up to perception? You either killed an old lady with a Mk19 grenade launching machine gun, or you did not.
4) If soldiers are guilty of these things, I want them punished, if these are lies, I want the liars silenced. Since all of us in uniform are maligned by these stories, true or not, I want the veracity confirmed or debunked.
Brandon, I will say this, I have a son older than you, and thank heavens he was not raised with your manners. Or do you only lose civility skills when you sit behind a keyboard?
I see you ignored the Merriam dictionary definition and decided to choose your own source. His article was his opinion of what regimes had in common. It does not constitute a definition, but does reflect his views. Oddly enough, not even an original thought for one purported to have a PhD. It was based on a prior article called Hallmarks of a Fascist Regime… located on Hippy.com. BTW, next time just post the link. Easier on us all.
Britt’s “14 Characteristics” was published by Free Inquirty magazine, the medium of the Council for Secular Humanism. A flashy organization of globalists who apparently use science as their God, and demonstrates strong tendencies (if not outright) to be aethiests… all of which may explain your tasteless “prayer” humor earlier, and your penchant for accepting one poly-sci pundit’s opine over another’s. If you think he is operating without an agenda, you are the fool you appear.
Why not wander back over to blatherwatch, Sparky.. where your insights are heralded as nothing less than magnificent? Talk about only getting along with those that are in accord…. can you say “Pot, kettle”?
BTW, Mike’s A… still having problems editing. Screen either:
1: redraws with a black veil and locks up or
2: just locks up
Bizarre… was just fine yesterday. I should try a reboot next…
“Oddly enough, not even an original thought for one purported to have a PhD.”
Brandon claims to have one? And he called me pompous?
Oh well, I mean I do have a JD, but come on!
Lawrence Britt with the PhD, Thus Spake… I think we can tell by Brandon’s scribblings and focus he doesn’t possess that diploma. However Britt’s article was a takeoff of the Hippy.com article. That’s why I said, not even an original thought. Just used bigger words and less weed to get his point across, I guess… LOL
Edit Problem Updates: I rebooted. Still the only way to edit is to open the new “Click to Edit” icon in a new browser. When I try opening it in the same window, same “black veil” look or merely a freeze for awhile. I’ve tried this in all layout versions,
BTW. All the problems started when this new “Click to Edit”/Ajax Edit comments icon appeared instead of the post getting highlighted when you click on it. I wondered if it’s a pop up blocker, but nothing appears at my menu bar to say anything is getting blocked…. oh well.
So does anyone want to take those 14 Characteristics of Facism and show examples of the Democratic party in action so that only one person will address Mr. Asshat? I’m sure most of the points could be addressed here in the archives of FA.
Oh, thank god.
Count me out, Udder. I’d find a hang nail more worthy of attention.
So you guys are seniors? As far cas manners go Thus, offering a first name is good manners. Still hiding behind your Monikers and still ganging up on little old me. How brave you both are.
Haha, I hear you Mata. I’ve been watching and laughing. I need to go to voice blogging or something. By the time I get everything researched, typed and formatted, it is old news.
Brandon #30 to Curt:
When you act like a 12 year old, it’s a logical assumption to make, no?
What is this? Westside Story? Are we rumbling?
Brandon #35:
Thanks for not making me sound ignorant. Couldn’t do it without you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah….you’re not the first to point out the definition of “fascism”. I’ve done it myself. You just don’t like my clever play on words.
Fascists also suppress dissenting views through aggressive tactics, and champions “cults of unity, energy and purity”. I’d say not all peace activists are peace fascists; but for the Karen Porters of the anti-war movement who are intolerant of opposition views and resort to aggressive means to stifle the voices of those opposed to them, it’s an apt term.
It’s inflammatory, sure. But a verbal slur/insult/name-call should not be met by a proponent for peace, by attacking a woman who was not the one calling him traitor.
So, my question again to you is: Do you condemn or condone his physical assault on skye?
Agreed!
You don’t think the Iraqis have been trying to do just that? Fend for themselves? Many of those thousands you lament have been those serving in the Iraqi government, in the police and security forces, fighting for the soul of their country against those have nothing to offer, except chaos and discord.
Do you think after 30 years of living under a brutal dictator, a traumatic insurgency that disrupts rebuilding activities, we’re going to sew stability over night? Apparently, some Iraqis actually thought just that: that the U.S. was so powerful, we could just magically snap our fingers and create daffodils and fuzzy bunnies and prosperity.
It takes about 4 years for our best officers to be trained at West Point. All officers must have a minimum of 4 year degrees. It takes Iraqi officers 3 years of training before they can join the force. We’ve been in Iraq for 5 years.
You might be right. But if we’re responsible for “creating the mess” and misery in Iraq, how dishonorable, how irresponsible would it be to pack our bags and go home? Would the suffering increase, or decrease?
And how does even a perceived defeat, make America safer? bin Laden gained notoriety and “jihadis” from his perceived victory at the Lion’s Den over the Soviets in Afghanistan. Nothing quite like the perception of success to up the recruitment.
Breath mint?
Is that what we are doing? Causing death and destruction? Who blows up mosques, hospitals, schools and delivers carbombs and homicide bombers into market places? And which side is working with the Iraqi government to rebuild the infrastructure to make life better for all Iraqis?
So you still believe in the invasion; just not the occupation? Then you are in agreement with the original plans of Rumsfeld and Bush, which was to model Iraq after Afghanistan. Officials within the CIA and State, however, diverged from the one pushed forth by the White House and Pentagon.
There’s merit in that. But what makes you think I don’t already realize just how awful war is? That I lack the ability to empathize? What do you say to those who have been in war, yet are opposed to your views? They aren’t here at the moment to speak, so you’re stuck with me.
Have YOU been in a war?
Then you haven’t really been listening to them (those who disagree with you). It goes beyond just those soldiers who are optimistic of their own prowess and who are fortified by a warrior’s will not to give up.
Without the military, in the face of insurgents and saboteurs who don’t want to see Iraq democratized, the hopes of political conciliation to push forward goes from having a chance, to not having a chance.
Again, reality is that even in the absence of an insurgency, rebuilding a country is an enormous challenge that won’t happen overnight. The Iraqi parliament has passed more legislation than our own 110th Pelosified Congress.
Good. Now I know I’m not dealing with a pacifist.
Out of around 150 thousand soldiers, the percentage of atrocities being committed are…..? What? And are we prosecuting them? Do the actions of a few delegitimize our NOBLE efforts in Iraq?
Historically, our military has often found itself in nation-building, governmental roles. This goes for small wars, not just the big ones.
You’re right: Mission was accomplished. But things don’t occur in a vacuum. One of our biggest mistakes in Afghanistan, was to leave behind a vacuum for the Taliban to fill, after the Soviets left.
The responsible thing, is to pick up where life leaves off. The original post-war plans did not iron out. Following the pottery barn rule, since we “broke it”, we have an obligation to “fix it”. Which is better for America: leaving behind a successful, stable Iraq, or leaving it behind in ruins? If you think America’s standing and image in the world was harmed by the Bush Administration, how would we look then? How does abandonment and the perception of defeat make America any safer from encouraging the bin Laden charge that America is a paper tiger who hasn’t got the intestinal fortitude to sustain the losses needed in order to win wars and win battles? Stalin pointed out how America couldn’t subdue little Korea, and after a few thousand dead, we were already weeping.
The strategic goals of democratizing Iraq was ever a gamble. But if it succeeds, if we have the will to withstand the setbacks and hardships, what are the potential ripple-effect rewards? It’s a story without an ending.
Of course. But have we truly been practicing cowboy diplomacy? I think John Bolton stated things very well, here:
I’d say 12 years of an extended war was long enough, and you apparently agree with me.
Since violence hasn’t ceased in Iraq, post-war, how do you think that the methods of “Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Jimmy Carter (Egyptian-Israeli cease fire) and JESUS CHRIST” would fair in dealing with former baathists, insurgents, criminals, foreign fighters (including Iranians), al-Qaeda, and Islamic holy warriors? Do they wish to sit down with the peace pipe and talk?
We have negotiated, where negotiations are appropriate and applicable (re: Sunni Sheiks, Salvation Fronts and Concerned Citizens).
Momentum’s on our side right now. Why snatch defeat from the jaws of a possible “victory”?
Lol…you must mean business when you find it necessary to type in capslock.
I’m sorry, but I’m deeply skeptical of the motives and clarity of the IVAW soldiers to make an assessment of the overall geo-political strategy of our presence in Iraq, in part due to some of what skye and Ortner have stated. Assuming the veracity of their “testimony”, anecdotal experiences don’t always see the bigger picture.
Were John Kerry and his Winter Soldiers honest as well as accurate regarding Vietnam? And was it a good thing, that they got what they wanted, by having us abandon our South Vietnamese allies, the way we did? What were the repercussions? How did it affect America’s image and standing? Were we honorable in our abandonment, after signing a written pledge to offer military support, should North Vietnam not honor their pledge agreement, and invade the South?
Now who’s trying to put words in who’s mouth?
My sense, is that those like yourself are quick to Murthafy Marines before they’ve been given their day in court. Quick to suspect the worst, and last to give our soldiers the benefit of the doubt.
So yeah, I’m suspicious of the Scott Beauchamps and Jesse MacBeths.
From where I’m standing? Looks overpopulated with moonbats. How’s it feel being there?
Brandon #38:
No; just a 36 year old who has an inordinate amount of time on his hands.
Brandon #39:
This is part of why it is so amusing that you seem to paint yourself as a “free-thinker”. Did you take the time to actually research skye’s links or the merits of Ortner’s points addressed in his link? No. Just childish belittling of his user handle.
You willfully ignore the ones who don’t speak of atrocities, but are all too willing to believe the ones who do speak of it.
Do you feel those atrocities are epidemic? Or aberrations that deserve 31 consecutive frontpage stories in the NYTimes, ala abu Ghraib?
Are you giving the issue proper perspective and weight? Or holding a magnifying glass to a blemish, to make the Arab world see nothing but our blemishes?
Ortner #40:
I doubt Brandon is serious. He doesn’t strike me as one after the truth, but one holding a partisan agenda. Otherwise, he’d welcome your links and disagreement, rather than deliver irritated insults. Case in point:
You’re a real piece of work. This is another example of your incivility and questions as to your age. Ortner brought up Nietzsche, because you made an unnecessary attack on his username, rather than engage him on the substance of his comment.
Brandon #46:
Yeah, we’re tag-team wrestling here. Grow up! You’re commenting on a conservative blog with multiple authors and….*gasp*…conservative readers. People are free to comment as they please. This isn’t a one-on-one rumble in the bronx. But I’m sure it makes you feel good to play up your persecution-complex. You stepped into it, so you deal with it. I’d love to pair you up with Philly Steve, though. You two would make quite the dynamic duo.
Brandon #47:
And you’re the one who told me I’ve never been in a war, so my opinions are supposedly worthless ones to have. Rather than crawl into your shell, engage Ortner on the substance of his links.
Ortner #49:
LMAO!
Brandon#52:
You obviously haven’t been around here before, have you?
Brandon #63:
So basically, you’re just parroting what I pointed out early on. Thank you.
Mike #66:
Yes, Brandon….try and be more like me.
I know it’s rather ambitious, but the joy is in the journey, not the destination, which we know is beyond your reach to attain.
Not that I expect you to address me in the future, Brandon, but to you, my first name is “Maam”… the same address you should use if you pass a stranger on a narrow street. Thank you for asking.
So umm…does this make your penis larger or just make you think it’s larger. Again just curious.
Mataharley, I am honestly sorry if I offended you. It’s not my thing to pick on a woman. I thought you were a man (wrong assumption-see Wordsmith I can admit when I’m wrong) I won’t address you rudely anymore. I’ll save it for the men.
What do you want? A medal?
Does it matter? So far you’ve been shooting blanks.
Wordsmith, are you a woman too? And no I don’t condone what happened to Skye. That jerk was way out of line. Picking on or assaulting a woman is never okay with me.
I’ve been shooting blanks about as long as long as you have which would be what…….about ten years now? Seriosly, answer the penis question. I’m childish? This website ius liitered with cartoon cowboys. I thought this was achildren’s website at first. Do you guys have nicknames for each other?
So that explains your presence here. Run along, now, junior. When you turn 37, maybe you’ll finally experience puberty.
When did this turn to talk of penises?
Is “penises” the plural of penis? Should it ever be pluralized?
This whole thread turned as gay as Lance Bass and Liberace dancing the macerena while Brandon drooled in the corner.
Oh come now wordsmith, you didn’t write that all by yourself did you now? You used that walkie Talkie to get help from the other cowboys didn’t you? Come on admit it. Experience puberty, gosh that’s original.Back to your penis………
Quit obsessing over my penis.
Turning childish was Brandon’s way of making a graceful exit from the substance put forth. It’s his way of “saving face”, without actually waving a white flag and admit he’s not interested in engaging you, or I, or anyone else on substance.
Lance who? You’re right I’ll stop talking about how small Wordsmith’s penis is. It’s just that big tough guys like him are usually overcompensating for something. Maybe he’s just really short.
Is that your perception of me from everything I wrote? “Big tough guy”?
Says more about you than me.
No it’s my way of saying I’ll address one of you and not six or seven. Trust me I’m could care less about saving face with any of you. You actually addressed some of the same things the rest of the cowboys did. How many times do I need to have the same argument? How many times do I need to be asked the same questions.
The difference between you and me is that unlike you I don’t need a posse to back me up. Unlike you I don’t hide behind a Moniker and unlike you I have a set of balls.
N’kay.
No one’s hiding behind “a posse”. You’re just too much of a moron to understand how this works: people leave comments, people are free to address said comment. It’s as simple as that. No one’s calling backup; the only one behaving like a whiny bitch is you.
Stay classy Brandon.
You’re an excellent representative of your species.
“Brandon” is as good a moniker as any. Give me your last name. Give me your address and phone number.
It’s far easier for you to find out who I am, than the other way around.
Prove to me that your raisins are the size of grapefruits. Quit hiding behind the name “brandon”.
No, that’s how your profile describes you:
“Currently a personal trainer and gymnastics instructor, wordsmith is looking at a career change into the military.”. I thought that made you sound like a tough guy. You aren’t?
Brandon, where is your blog?
Since this is Wordsmiths, I love how you just come in, make yourself at home and start making up rules.
And what the hell is “N’kay.”
If it’s a South Park reference to Mr. Garrison it is M’kay.
You aren’t Mr. Slave or Mr. Hand are you?