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Robert: There’s no other way to view your remarks than to conclude that they are sadly delusional or worse.
How anyone could equate U.S. treatment of detainees with the monsters who behead Americans like Nick Berg and treat innocent Iraqis with even less humanity is beyond any kind of rational political thought.
If you’re serious, your view enables evil.
If your comment is not serious, then I simply take you as a fool.
Either way, you’re part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Some of the small number of prisoners who remained in the jail after the Americans left said they had pleaded to go with their departing captors, rather than be left in the hands of Iraqi guards.
“The Americans were better than the Iraqis. They treated us better,” said Khalid Alaani, who was held on suspicion of involvement in Sunni terrorism.
“This tiny remaining corps of reporters becomes a greater and greater problem for the military brass because we are the only people preventing them from telling the story the way they want it told.”
And it is up to bloggers, such as Flopping Aces, to hold the media accountable for their misrepresentation of the story of Iraq.
As I said over at Mike’s, we should expect more from ourselves than just being better than the Iraqis (who hung 27 prisoners in a mass execution, according to the article you linked) or Al Qaeda (we can see what they did to their prisoners right here in Mike’s post).
Of course we treat the people we capture better than our enemies (& some of our friends) do. I think in his heart of hearts, even Robert knows that. I’m not sure that is something anyone needs to prove, because anyone who cannot see it, cannot see.
Comparing us to them is moral relativism, and is rubbish. Better we compare American words and deeds to American ethical values and standards of behavior.
The one line where Robert & I concur is that by comparing us to them, rather than comparing our actions to our values, Mike (& all the rest who repeat such comparisons) sets the bar far too low.
As I said over at Mike’s, we should expect more from ourselves than just being better than the Iraqis (who hung 27 prisoners in a mass execution, according to the article you linked) or Al Qaeda (we can see what they did to their prisoners right here in Mike’s post).
And as I stated, more or less, over at Mike’s, I think you miss the point, and are stating something that no one is arguing against.
We do expect more from ourselves; but this isn’t the argument at hand in this post.
What I take issue with, is the NYTimes handwringing over abuses at Abu Ghraib to the point that the obsessing over it damages our war effort and gives our enemies political ammunition and propaganda fodder, by blowing it disproportionately out of the water in comparison to real torture and abuses, which, in a time of war, gets little coverage by the NYTimes. If you’re in the jihad business, why hire good PR when you have the NYTimes to do it all for you, for free?
And have lived up to our expectations by prosecuting our own. Not only the media (60 Minutes) thinking they were whistle-blowing, but our own military months in advance already publically announced that they were conducting about 3 different investigations into the abuses.
What jihadis are punishing their own? Perhaps for not torturing their prisoners? For not being inhumane and cruel enough? For flinching or not eagerly volunteering when asked who wants to take a spoon and scoop out a prisoner’s eyeball from his socket, in the name of Allah?
Under Repsac’s scheme we would never do anything to counteract evil because we are not perfect ourselves.
If anything plays into the hands of evil men and their bloodlust it is that mindset.
I’ve offered Repsac countless opportunities to show how he/she would address with effective, practical alternative policies the life and death issues we face. All I’ve gotten is whatever Bush is for he/she is against.
Repsac’s also insisted he/she supports the troops. But other than supplying them with defensive armor he/she would deny them the guns and ammunition to shoot back.
If you want an example of how delusional the American left is, you’ve found one with Repsac.
“And as I stated, more or less, over at Mike’s, I think you miss the point, and are stating something that no one is arguing against.”
The argument is implicit in the comparison between us and our enemies, isn’t it? But you are correct; I don’t think it’s an argument that much of anyone is taking the other side on. It is a strawman come to life. That is all I was trying to say, and it seems we agree.
As to whether the NYT made too much of Abu Ghraib and too little of the 42 Iraqi captives we freed, yes, they did.
David
16 years ago
We have held ourselves to the higher standard. The military has pursued Article 32 hearings against personnel that were believed to have violated the UCMJ and the rules of war. Even, to the detriment of overall morale. To suggest that we have set the bar low on our own conduct is simply a delusional myth created by the MSM and their political allies. Our value of honor and personal integrity is such that we are willing not to return fire in fear of hitting civilians that may be caught in the crossfire. Al Qaeda simply doesn’t care who they kill and torture. They just do it.
I’m not saying that the US government or the US military is lowing the bar. They are not, as the hearings and convictions attest.
I’m saying that those who compare our treatment of prisoners to our enemies treatment of prisoners are lowering the bar on our expectations. Yes, our prison abuses were minor compared to their abuses. But that doesn’t (or shouldn’t) really say anything about our prison abuses, because that is not the yardstick by which we measure our degree of right and wrong. Our yardstick is our own values, as encoded in the UCMJ.
“I’m sorry… I don’t think I’m making myself clear…”
Funny how often that sentence creeps into your comments Repie!
Your statements are pretty clear to me. You wouldn’t do anything to address any of these life and death issues unless some Utopian and perfect solution could be found.
And evil men would continue murdering by the thousands as you dither about what to do.
Mike, I’m relatively certain the sum total of my use of that sentence in comments since meeting you would be twice… Both times yesterday, and each in the same context as the other, in reply to this same post.
The remainder of your allegations are not borne out by anything I posted.
But you’re welcome to your opinion, such as it is…
I assume you saw today’s Day by Day. If not, check it out, because it’s right on point. You can find it here.
Thanks Bookworm. I had missed the Day by Day cartoon. Great addition to this post!
To answer your question: Neither or both.
But if it makes you feel better to know that the United States government is no worse than Al Quaeda terrorists, who am I to rain on your parade?
But that’s setting the bar a little low, ain’t it Floppy?
Robert: There’s no other way to view your remarks than to conclude that they are sadly delusional or worse.
How anyone could equate U.S. treatment of detainees with the monsters who behead Americans like Nick Berg and treat innocent Iraqis with even less humanity is beyond any kind of rational political thought.
If you’re serious, your view enables evil.
If your comment is not serious, then I simply take you as a fool.
Either way, you’re part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Crawl back under the rock and lick Satan’s toes.
So Robert sees fit to view moral equivalency between the U.S. government and al-Qaeda? Unbelievable!
Explain that one to them, Robert:
“This tiny remaining corps of reporters becomes a greater and greater problem for the military brass because we are the only people preventing them from telling the story the way they want it told.”
And it is up to bloggers, such as Flopping Aces, to hold the media accountable for their misrepresentation of the story of Iraq.
As I said over at Mike’s, we should expect more from ourselves than just being better than the Iraqis (who hung 27 prisoners in a mass execution, according to the article you linked) or Al Qaeda (we can see what they did to their prisoners right here in Mike’s post).
Of course we treat the people we capture better than our enemies (& some of our friends) do. I think in his heart of hearts, even Robert knows that. I’m not sure that is something anyone needs to prove, because anyone who cannot see it, cannot see.
Comparing us to them is moral relativism, and is rubbish. Better we compare American words and deeds to American ethical values and standards of behavior.
The one line where Robert & I concur is that by comparing us to them, rather than comparing our actions to our values, Mike (& all the rest who repeat such comparisons) sets the bar far too low.
And as I stated, more or less, over at Mike’s, I think you miss the point, and are stating something that no one is arguing against.
We do expect more from ourselves; but this isn’t the argument at hand in this post.
What I take issue with, is the NYTimes handwringing over abuses at Abu Ghraib to the point that the obsessing over it damages our war effort and gives our enemies political ammunition and propaganda fodder, by blowing it disproportionately out of the water in comparison to real torture and abuses, which, in a time of war, gets little coverage by the NYTimes. If you’re in the jihad business, why hire good PR when you have the NYTimes to do it all for you, for free?
Wordsmith wrote:
And have lived up to our expectations by prosecuting our own. Not only the media (60 Minutes) thinking they were whistle-blowing, but our own military months in advance already publically announced that they were conducting about 3 different investigations into the abuses.
What jihadis are punishing their own? Perhaps for not torturing their prisoners? For not being inhumane and cruel enough? For flinching or not eagerly volunteering when asked who wants to take a spoon and scoop out a prisoner’s eyeball from his socket, in the name of Allah?
Under Repsac’s scheme we would never do anything to counteract evil because we are not perfect ourselves.
If anything plays into the hands of evil men and their bloodlust it is that mindset.
I’ve offered Repsac countless opportunities to show how he/she would address with effective, practical alternative policies the life and death issues we face. All I’ve gotten is whatever Bush is for he/she is against.
Repsac’s also insisted he/she supports the troops. But other than supplying them with defensive armor he/she would deny them the guns and ammunition to shoot back.
If you want an example of how delusional the American left is, you’ve found one with Repsac.
“And as I stated, more or less, over at Mike’s, I think you miss the point, and are stating something that no one is arguing against.”
The argument is implicit in the comparison between us and our enemies, isn’t it? But you are correct; I don’t think it’s an argument that much of anyone is taking the other side on. It is a strawman come to life. That is all I was trying to say, and it seems we agree.
As to whether the NYT made too much of Abu Ghraib and too little of the 42 Iraqi captives we freed, yes, they did.
We have held ourselves to the higher standard. The military has pursued Article 32 hearings against personnel that were believed to have violated the UCMJ and the rules of war. Even, to the detriment of overall morale. To suggest that we have set the bar low on our own conduct is simply a delusional myth created by the MSM and their political allies. Our value of honor and personal integrity is such that we are willing not to return fire in fear of hitting civilians that may be caught in the crossfire. Al Qaeda simply doesn’t care who they kill and torture. They just do it.
I’m sorry… I don’t think I’m making myself clear…
I’m not saying that the US government or the US military is lowing the bar. They are not, as the hearings and convictions attest.
I’m saying that those who compare our treatment of prisoners to our enemies treatment of prisoners are lowering the bar on our expectations. Yes, our prison abuses were minor compared to their abuses. But that doesn’t (or shouldn’t) really say anything about our prison abuses, because that is not the yardstick by which we measure our degree of right and wrong. Our yardstick is our own values, as encoded in the UCMJ.
I hope that makes my point more clearly.
“I’m sorry… I don’t think I’m making myself clear…”
Funny how often that sentence creeps into your comments Repie!
Your statements are pretty clear to me. You wouldn’t do anything to address any of these life and death issues unless some Utopian and perfect solution could be found.
And evil men would continue murdering by the thousands as you dither about what to do.
Mike, I’m relatively certain the sum total of my use of that sentence in comments since meeting you would be twice… Both times yesterday, and each in the same context as the other, in reply to this same post.
The remainder of your allegations are not borne out by anything I posted.
But you’re welcome to your opinion, such as it is…