J. Scott Applewhite/AP/File
CBS News has confirmed that the Obama administration is bracing itself for a Tuesday release of the long-awaited CIA torture report, though the timing ultimately remains at the discretion of the Senate Intelligence Committee. Sources familiar with the matter confirm to CBS News State Department Correspondent Margaret Brennan that Secretary of State John Kerry called and requested, but did not pressure, Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-California, the chairwoman of the Intelligence Committee, to hold off on releasing the report. The administration has some concerns about the safety of diplomats abroad.
Prepare for the Republican minority view to be released on the same day, along with the CIA rebuttal. The 5-year Feinstein investigation ended up having zero Republican participation; nor did the investigation see fit to interview those CIA officials and interrogators directly involved with the detention and interrogation program. So essentially, it all gets to be interpreted and presented by the critics who first led in with the verdict and followed with the investigation through a confirmation biased magnifying glass lens.
Army Lt. Col. Douglas Pryer wrote a guest blogpost at Thomas Ricks (long-time “torture” critic) that ridicules the notion that this Report is partisan, or that it matters:
Predictably, torture’s acolytes are already responding: The report was a Republican witch hunt led by Democratic Senator Dianne Feinstein. Facts were selectively culled by partisan staffers in order to paint the program in the worst possible light. Other staffers could’ve selected different facts and reached completely opposite conclusions. Sure, there were problems with the program, but these techniques really did “work.” They saved lives. Someday, the truth will be revealed, and the men and women who performed this “hard, dirty work” for good ends will be lauded as the true heroes they are. In the mean time, trust us regarding this program’s success. WE KNOW.
Hogwash. I’ve never believed a word of what torture’s advocates say, and neither should you.
His experience as a counterintelligence officer is a good read. But it echoes the same arguments that military interrogators like “Matthew Alexander” (Anthony Camarino) have been claiming (side note: Pentagon’s military detention and interrogation program under Rumsfeld was not the same as the CIA program- nor should it have been. Feinstein’s 5-year investigation is an examination of the CIA- not military). But they, along with FBI interrogator Ali Soufan, are countered by a CIA interrogator who actually was involved in the program. Essentially, Ali Soufan, Lt. Col. Preyer, Camarino, and other likeminded “experts” are speaking from the outside about a program they were not apart of to witness from the inside.
This Report is so egregious, that former CIA senior intelligence officials are launching a rebuttal website, CIASavedLives.com according to an exclusive at Foreign Policy Cable:
“It’s a one-stop shopping place for the other side,” Bill Harlow, a top CIA spokesman during the George W. Bush administration, told Foreign Policy. “With the website … we’ll be able to put out newly declassified documents, documents that were previously released but not well read and host a repository for op-eds and media appearances by various officials.”
Joined by other senior CIA alumni, including former directors Michael Hayden and George Tenet, Harlow is coordinating an aggressive response to the release of the 500-page executive summary of the Senate Intelligence Committee’s report, which includes new and disturbing details about the scale and severity of the Bush administration’s enhanced interrogation program. With the summary expected to drop on Tuesday, Harlow plans to make his site live the very same day. (At the moment, typing in the URL brings users to a page administered by the caddish web hosting company GoDaddy.com).
“We have plans to correct the record as we see it and help the people whose names are being dragged through the mud,” said Harlow.
Interestingly enough, the White House has not been very supportive of the Feinstein efforts to release the Report with fewer redactions. Similar to the “human” rights leftists’ desire to release more abu Ghraib photos and the White House attempts to block them, the White House has been a roadblock- not a supporter- of the Report, even though Senator Feinstein and President Obama stand on the same side of the ideological fence.
The last thing the Obama Administration wants or needs is another attack on a U.S. embassy. I think most normal Americans have moved on. The last HVT to be given CIA swimming lessons was KSM in 2003 w(yes, the practice stopped under President Bush, not President Obama). So what’s the point in the $40 million dollar pet Feinstein project? How does this enhance America’s image abroad (which liberals are always hand-wringing over)? It only serves the interest of the enemy (propaganda fodder for Jihadi and Islamist groups) and anti-Americanism. NBC news, by Chuck Todd, Mark Murray and Carrie Dann:
The biggest political story over the next 48 hours is likely to be the Senate Intelligence Committee’s report this week on the torture of CIA prisoners during the Bush era. And even before its official release, folks are already preparing for a fight. “A long-awaited Senate report condemning torture by the Central Intelligence Agency has not even been made public yet, but former President George W. Bush’s team has decided to link arms with former intelligence officials and challenge its conclusions,” the New York Times says. But it’s quite possible that the political fallout — domestically — could be small. After all, many Americans have already made up their minds on these interrogation practices long ago. But the real immediate impact could be overseas, with the Obama administration bracing for the report to produce violence and unrest directed at U.S. embassies and western personnel in the Middle East. That is why Secretary of State John Kerry called Senate Intel Chair Dianne Feinstein to warn about the report’s release — not to necessarily scuttle the report, but instead to give everyone an ample heads up about the potential overseas blowback. And remember that this call happened before the failed hostage rescue mission in Yemen over the weekend.
President Bush has recently offered up his support and defense for the patriotism and honor of the rough men and women who make the hard measures to keep us safe:
Embassies have been alerted, Feinstein remains undeterred
NBC’s Andrea Mitchell has more: “Senior intelligence officials tell NBC News that they briefed the White House, Congress, and interagency partners of a classified intelligence assessment that there was a “heightened potential” that the release of the so-called Senate ‘torture report’ could ‘stimulate a violent response.’ It was that assessment that led to the alerts in Egypt and other embassies, closing down visa operations and strengthening security. Similar precautions have been taken at military posts around the world. The intelligence assessment was followed up by the call that was reported on Friday from Secretary of State Kerry to Senate Intelligence Chair Feinstein — during which he suggested delaying the release of the report. As of late Sunday, Feinstein remains undeterred, colleagues say, and the report is expected to be released as early as Tuesday.
CBS news, with Michael Hayden interviewed:
How can Feinstein believe that conducting this investigation at this time and so partisanly helps anyone except America’s enemies?
Exit question: Does the release of this Report help improve America’s moral standing and image (I could care less) in the world; and, more importantly, will it keep America safer?
A former fetus, the “wordsmith from nantucket” was born in Phoenix, Arizona in 1968. Adopted at birth, wordsmith grew up a military brat. He achieved his B.A. in English from the University of California, Los Angeles (graduating in the top 97% of his class), where he also competed rings for the UCLA mens gymnastics team. The events of 9/11 woke him from his political slumber and malaise. Currently a personal trainer and gymnastics coach.
The wordsmith has never been to Nantucket.
‘Sentence first – verdict afterwards.’ Diane F, channeling the Red Queen.
Never interviewed those in the case?
What can she conclude?
Anything she wants to.
Lives are important
Our nation’s honor more so
Reagan signed a treaty promising
That we would never torture and that we would prosecute anyone American or not that did torture
We used to be rather exceptional
I am sure that all countries could justify torture as having “saved lives”
Torture is excellent for obtaining confessions, but that is about it
Some apparently still think that the only thing that saved Western Civilization from the satanic witches of the 1400s/1700s was the torture that resulted in confessions and outings of other witches
What Christian could condone torture. ?????
It demonstrates that we are a nation that’s capable of self-examination, even when we know we might not like what it reveals. We have the freedom and the will to do that. We’re the people of a nation that strives to right wrongs, to correct itself, and to become better. It’s in our history. If anything sets us apart, it’s that.
@Greg:
I agree to a degree that this shows our exceptionalism. But please take the time to explain this to the jihadis. To the anti-American Europeans. Because you will not find in their headlines and talking points, “America takes ownership and accountability”; “America redeems itself by taking responsibility for past wrong-doing”. Nope. They will wonder why there are no prosecutions. They will wonder how America can lecture other nations about “human rights” violations while (supposedly) violating them in what appears to be hypocrisy.
abu Ghraib was exposed by “one of our own” and reported by American journalists (60 Minutes). It wasn’t foreign war correspondents that brought it to light. It led to prosecutions. Yet did that reportage in a time of war help our efforts in rebuilding Iraq, or did it have the opposite to desired effect?
We prosecuted and found guilty 4 Blackwater security guards. Do the anti-Americans credit our legal system and ability to hold our own accountable? Or do they just remember, “Americans kill innocent Iraqi civilians”?
John Ryan,
I really don’t have time for your nonsense. What is it with your yesterday’s talking points, behind the curb comments?!
Should I throw some cheese on the mouse trap for you?
Last week Obama released six Guantanamo inmates to Uruguay along with a suggestion they be kept there for two years…..until Obama is well out of office.
But he had to know this:
Uruguay does not accept the US demand that the six detainees freed from Guantanamo must remain in the country for at least two years.
The detainees from Guantanamo Base in Cuba that arrived in Uruguay on Sunday as part of an agreement with the US, “can leave the country whenever they wish”, since they come as ‘refugees’, announced President Jose Mujica.
http://en.mercopress.com/2014/12/08/mujica-says-guantanamo-inmates-in-uruguay-can-leave-whenever-they-wish
All may return to terrorism sooner rather than later.
I hope we can ”respect” that.
Will a spun report make it all better?
@Greg:
Hmmm. Really. I guess what you mean is self-examination ONLY when policies of a conservative administration is examined because the left celebrates and supports stonewalling the hell out of any “self-examination” of anything liberals do.
Say… isn’t Obama the guy that was supposed to keep the Benghazi consulate secure? We should brace ourselves for major disappointment.
Republicans have been subjecting the Obama administration to continuous investigations on multiple issues as if they’ve been charged with running some sort of three ring scandal circus. Stonewalling is basically the lame excuse they’re offering for their failure to prove anything. Either they’re totally incompetent investigators, or their endless accusations are complete bullshit. Take your pick. I don’t think the latter necessarily rules out the former.
“Guilty until proven innocent” isn’t the way things work in the country. Nor is torturing captives for useful information a generally accepted American tradition.
@Greg:
Correct. Because Democrats wish to sweep it all under the rug.
The White House and State Department ignored terror threats and requests for increased security in Benghazi, then the consulate was sacked on 9/11… and they invented the “video” lie. A border agent is killed by guns Holder was running to Mexico and Obama, who says he was not involved, uses executive priviledge to block the investigation. The IRS targes honest citizens, who coincidentally do not agree with the current regime, and though Obama says not a “smidgen” of corruption exists, personal taxpayer information is linked to the White House and the Obama campaign. The DOJ declares a journalist to be an espionage agent just so it can wire tap his and his parent’s phones, yet brings no charges. Obama illegally declares illegal immigrants to have citizen’s rights.
Meanwhile, you and the left want to declare that the biased, slanted, anti-American report is necessary to be revealed because you value openness and self examination. What a steaming crock of liberal shit.
The release of the report was speeded up to take the media air out of Gruber’s appearance before Issa’s committee. Nothing in D.C. happens by accident.
A flurry of links out there this morning prior to the investigation releases.
From CIASavedLives, launched today:
Here is the executive summary
Links of significance.
@Wordsmith: Liberals don’t understand living in the real world. Discuss, for instance, the Michael Brown killing with a liberal. Invariably, once they have the racist intent pounded out of their skulls with the facts, they fall back on the notion, “why didn’t he just wound him?”. They have no concept of events happening around someone, chaos, tension, stress and time all factoring in to the need to make a decision and act. No, liberals are incapable of that as they spend all their time and energy criticizing those who do and, sometimes, make mistakes but often come to conclusions they, the do-nothing liberals, simply don’t like.
Remember, 9/11 happened because Clinton could not make the decision to kill or capture bin Laden. Obama took 3 months to provide General McChrystal 2/3rds of the forces he needed to defeat the Taliban in Afghanistan. Obama took 16 hours to let the SEALS go in and kill bin Laden when they had his address. Obama waited a month to launch a rescue of James Foley (by then, he was gone). Liberals cannot make the tough decisions; they are only capable of criticizing those who do.
@Greg:
No it doesn’t. You want self-examination? Declassify the minutes of the senate and house intelligence briefings on enhanced interrogations. See how many cockroaches run to the corners when that light switched is flipped.
@Bill, #13:
Sweep what under the rug? Multiple investigative committees haven’t found any evidence establishing the truth of any of their many accusations against the Obama White House, remember? How many years now have they been working on their remake of Kill Bill? Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while—assuming that there are any to be found to begin with.
There seems to be plenty that they’d like to keep out of sight underneath the carpet themselves. Conclusions that the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence recently came to at the end of a 2-year formal investigation of the Benghazi attack, for example. Or the report concerning the investigation that’s the topic of this thread.
@Aqua, #14:
I’m sure it would be an instructive exercise, but first someone would have to take control of the light switch from the cockroaches.
I don’t mean that as a partisan slam, btw.
@Greg:
Greg, don’t be stupid. I try my best to avoid anything that sounds like some cheap personal attack, but, please. Let’s look at Benghazi first.
First, with no substantiation or anything to indicate it might even be a possibility, this corrupt administration tried to blame the attack on outrage over a video. It was 9/11, for God’s sake; don’t you think a terrorist attack would be the first impression? Of course it would, but that would negate the ongoing narrative that Obama the Warlord had decimated al Qaeda and had them running of the hills.
It took months to finally get some email traffic out of State and THEN we find that the video excuse was invented out of whole cloth. We begin to find out about the initial declarations that it was a terrorist attack. Slowly, the information dribbled out that there were intelligence warnings of an impending attack. Based on those, we later found that Stephens had been requesting additional security; all denied.
All the facts show that the attack on the consulate in Benghazi was a completely avoidable disaster and that, even once underway, the murders of the four Americans could have been avoided had Hillary and Barack not decided they needed their rest more than we needed those four lives.
If you would like a different outcome than that, you should be pushing for further investigation and White House cooperation, for that is how it stands right now.
Now, the IRS; no one has been punished, reprimanded or held accountable for the use of the IRS as a political weapon by the Democrats. Lerner takes the Fifth, which makes the entire situation look really, really bad. Underlings are blamed, then evidence begins to emerge. Then, the hard drives of anyone involved simultaneously fail and emails are lost… it is thought. Some are found and now we are discovering that personal IRS data made its way to the Obama campaign and right into the White House… all illegal.
Fast and Furious, stopped cold by Obama’s executive privilege claim (when he, supposedly, had nothing to do with it), but more information wrested out of the DOJ through lengthy court battles and FOI demands shows quite the contrary; Obama and Holder have lied.
Really, Greg, unless the administration would like to accept the character of corruption the evidence and facts already known shows, they should WANT more investigation. However, it is clear than the more we dig, the more smidgens we uncover, so it is no surprise that the left and Obama want to call day night and claim they have been exonerated.
Don’t be so stupid.
@Bill, #17:
Actually there are absolutely no facts that support the second part of that assertion, and the first part is largely a matter of Monday morning quarterbacking. Nearly any disaster will appear to have been easily avoidable in hindsight.
These are the sort of claims that don’t stand up to close examination. There’s no evidence supporting them. They gain acceptance for no other reason than their continuous repetition, and the fact that they’re directed toward an audience that wants to believe them.
@Greg: Well, Greg, had we pulled our personnel out like the British did, would it have been avoided? Why did we leave them just hanging out there?
You simply don’t want the answers to questions like that, but you on the left are quick to point the fingers.
@Bill:
Greggie’s sole purpose here is to defend the indefensible, i.e. the lawlessness, and secretiveness, of the Obama administration, the most corrupt administration since FDR.
@Bill, #19:
Yes, it obviously would have been avoided. And if the Bush administration had pulled out our personnel from any of the 13 U.S. embassies that were attacked on their watch, 3 U.S. citizen and 63 non-citizen U.S. embassy personnel would not have been killed. So your point is what, exactly? That a crystal ball would allow for more accurate judgement calls? That no mistakes should ever be expected?
@retire05, #20:
It would appear that the Obama administration has been attempting to cover the Bush administration’s posterior for the past 2 years in connection with the release of “enhanced interrogation” details. One would think you’d be a little more appreciative of the courtesy.
@retire05: The left is “outraged” by the harsh treatment of those wanting to kill Americans who have no regard for their lives or those of others in order to prevent them from doing so. Keep in mind, this is the same group of people who take great pride in supporting the fact that over 56,000,000 abortions have been performed in this country since 1973. At least we know who they believe represents the real threat to this country. Criticisms from the likes of McCain are one thing. The left has zero credibility in this matter like most others.
@Greg:
My point is, first, that it was, based on the intelligence available avoidable, right? Right. So, Obama and Hillary had intelligence available to avoid the catastrophe and ignored it.
Secondly, unlike the investigations following the attacks that occurred during the Bush administration, all we have had from the Obama administration has been lies and stonewalling.
I told you to stop that. The Obama administration has been trying to fabricate a report that would cover its OWN ass by diminishing what the interrogations accomplished (most notably handing Obama his one and only foreign policy success) and covering the fact that all the liberals that were on the committees and now point their bony, bloody fingers, were fully briefed and informed of what the CIA was doing and accomplishing.
Americans don’t condone the torture of prisoners. To let it be covered up is to consent to its repetition, and to lose the right to condemn anyone for treating our own people in a similar fashion. It’s as simple as that. It shouldn’t be a partisan issue.
The Senate Intelligence Committee isn’t made up exclusively of democrats. It presently includes 7 republican members.
@Greg:
No, left wing Americans don’t condone the torture of prisoners. They only condone the torture of unborn children as they are being ripped out of their mother’s womb. But rational Americans, not the left wing, condone doing what ever it takes to prevent another 9-11-2001.
Yeah, us being able to issue a strong consternation to ISIS, or other radical Islamist groups, that are chopping the heads off Americans should do the trick and get the radical Islamists to stop chopping the head off Americans, right?
FDR is rolling over in his grave. He would have never permitted any intel, such as was revealed today by the pacifist kumbaya Democrats, to be released during a time of war.
It does. But the Republicans realized very quickly that the Democrats were seeking only an agenda, not facts. Isn’t it funny how all those Democrats that were briefed on the EITs all now seem to have memory loss about being briefed?
@retire05, #25:
While those on the right generally do? I rather doubt that.
You might want to curb your enthusiasm for insulting everyone who doesn’t share your pathological hostility and slow down long enough to think through the implications of what you’re saying.
It’s the facts about what was done in the name of the American people that are damning, not the act of revealing those facts. Why do you think those involved ordered all of video and audio tapes of the interrogations destroyed? They knew perfectly well what would happen if they were ever viewed in the context of an investigation. They knew damn well they had crossed a line, and that the American people wouldn’t tolerate or condone it.
@another+vet: You got Repubs. who never served, much less endured torture like Mac., bad mouthing him and calling him a traitor. They bring shame on themselves and our country. F—em
@Rich+Wheeler: Who would that be?
@Greg:
Nor was my post intended to be a partisan slam. I’d like to see all the cockroaches scurry.
The Senate gets to have its say. But if the true facts remain classified and they are hiding behind that, someone needs to shed a little light on it.
@Rich+Wheeler:
McCain was tortured. Seriously, brutally, tortured. The VC were not out to get information during all his sessions, some of them were just to bring the pain.
There is a big difference in what we did and what they did to McCain. I haven’t read the report, but if there are cases where actual torture existed, I would be surprised to find nothing was done about it.
Having trained professionals, with medical personnel in the room, waterboard someone is not torture.
@Aqua: Neither is having someone stand on a chair with a dog barking at them. My Company Cdr on my first Iraq tour made a good point when he said he endured worse “torture” in the form of hazing while in college than what the prisoners at Abu Ghraib did.
@Rich+Wheeler:
Ditto for all the dems who have repeatedly bashed those in uniform like DICK Durbin, John Kerry, Teddy Kennedy, and all the rest. You can add in all the self righteous leftists who take great pride in the 56,000,000 plus abortions they’ve advocated. That’s more deaths than Stalin, Hitler, and Lenin combined the only difference is most of their victims were old enough to fight back. While you’re at it, add in all those die hard dems in places like Chicago who run around blowing each other away including a number of victims who are guilty of no more than standing on a street corner waiting for a school bus. Like I said, I respect McCain’s opinion on this matter. The left’s, no way. They have ZERO respect for innocent lives or our military.
@Bill: Scumbag Karl Rove was behind stories in S.C. 2000 Repub. Primary ACCUSING Mac of being a traitor while a POW. Also accused him of fathering a Black child who was actually adopted.
BTW The fact this guy still has a job at Fox speaks volumes about the veracity level of that channel.
A.V. A patriot supports our troops but does not have to support a government that erroneously sends them to war.
RE. Torture It appears the CIA contracted a bunch of poorly trained thugs to carry out “investigations.”
I am personally opposed to abortion but don’t feel I have the moral authority to impose my views on a woman’s decisions re. her body.
Counsel adoption and make it easier to adopt.
@Rich+Wheeler: Another Republican who never served who should be condemned for disagreeing with the way this went down?
http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/12/09/torture-cia-senate-intelligence-report-911-column/20088647/
@Rich+Wheeler:
Where is the documentation that this was instigated by Rove? While I would not be surprised of such a thing being done in a campaign (after all, it was Hillary that made the “birther” accusations, not the right), how about something besides you saying Rove was “behind” it?
Now you are making references insulting Obama… you are ALL OVER THE PLACE!!!
THERE YOU GO AGAIN! “It appears”. It appears to you on the left who sit snug and secure in your homes without wondering how that is made possible when there are terrorists willing to fly aircraft into buildings and use chemical, biological or nuclear weapons on a populated area. However, some of us have a great deal of respect for those who keep us safe.
@another+vet:
You get a pretty good variety of treatment in SERE school. I handled everything pretty well except for the baby crying. Loud music, white noise, crazy noise, no problem. The baby crying made me go deep inside. Even today, the sound of a baby crying rips at my soul.
@Rich+Wheeler:
You seem to think that John McCain is the ultimate warrior and that nothing he does, since becoming a Senator warrants disdain.
Yes, there are those that dislike McCain, intensely, like I do. It has nothing to do with his time in captivity, but his actions in D.C. Never mind that McCain admitted that he broke under torture. He acknowledged that in his book. And there were those who suffered just as greatly as McCain did that, while also Republicans, refused to support him in his multiple bids for the Oval Office.
I suggest you research the history of Samuel Robert Johnson. An American hero who never tried to capitalize on his captivity, extreme harsh treatment at the hands of the North Vietnamese and years of pain. Then take a look at him, just six years older than McCain, and see how he now suffers from that treatment to the point where the simple task of walking causes him great pain. And in all that, he never sold out his conservative values by siding with the likes of Ted Kennedy, murderer, or the left side of the aisle.
I would remind you that Benedict Arnold was a great warrior for the American side until he sold his soul to the British. Are we to hold Arnold in high esteem because he was once a great warrior for the American side?
I respect John McCain for the fact that he’s not abandoning his principles for the sake of partisan politics. To my mind, he’s actually protecting the integrity of his party by doing that. I’m also disappointed that the Obama administration has attempted to keep the Feinstein report under wraps. I don’t doubt they have rightly calculated that it falls onto the wrong side of the balance in the matter of our international image, but that’s the price we have to pay for an important moral course correction.
The fact that people in high and influential positions are actually defending and rationalizing what was done makes me all the more certain of that. What happened has got to be exposed and condemned now, or we’ll have even worse abuses to deal with in the future. It’s not a matter of protecting captive enemies. It’s a matter of protecting what we are as a nation.
@Greg: You like because you think it dings Republicans. I can make this claim with certainty because you support and defend the stonewalling and cover-ups by Democrats and the Obama administration.
@Greg:
I think reasonable people can disagree without demonizing each other.
I disagree. There’s no reason why this had to come into the sunlight now. The last person waterboarded was KSM in 2003. It essentially ended on Bush’s watch. This has been like picking at a scab as it’s all old news and aside from minutia details, there’s nothing that’s come to light that has changed anyone’s position before the release. All it’s done is reawaken the partisan division on the issue.
This is for you, Greg; because I don’t think we’ve fallen short of “who we are as a people” or failed to “live up to our values” (as if the romanticized past hasn’t seen its fair share of atrocities and “doing what needed to be done”):
The “Torture Report” and American Values
@Bill, #39:
John McCain, who I just acknowledged as doing the right thing, is a republican. And I just criticized the Obama administration for a cover-up effort, in case you missed it.
@Rich+Wheeler:
You need to take a good long hard look at what DICK Durbin and Teddy Kennedy said about those who served. How about Kerry? He trashed you VN Vets and made derogatory comments about those of us who served in Iraq as well. I’ve noticed in the past where you have criticized Cheney(R) for his deferments all of but one of which were before VN but give a free ride to Clinton(D), Biden(D), and Reid(D) to name a few and most or all of theirs were during the war itself. Perhaps we have different standards for patriotism. For me it’s a person’s words and actions. For you, party affiliation. Bottom line, if the dems don’t want to stand behind the troops and others who protect the country, let them stand in front of them.
@Greg: I have read accounts of war where there is hand to hand combat with soldiers killing each other with whatever is available, bashing heads in with rocks if necessary. As if shooting was not bad enough, bayoneting, knifing, beating with rifle butts, beating with steel helmets, biting, clawing, kicking, gouging.
Depending on the interpretation, it may be illegal to kill the enemy with the .50 caliber bullet. Yet, we are in a war and we do it.
We are in a war, alright…. a knock-down, drag out war and we are about to be overrun. The enemy is among us and they don’t respect the rules. We are in that trench, foxhole, muddy field where we have… HAVE to use very method available to us. If now, if we don’t lose, we will see many of our loved ones be killed.
I say we do what we need to do in order to win. The alternative is death.
Sorry, Greg, but I don’t detect your “criticism” of the current administration, unless this is it:
If so, how can you live with yourself for being so brutal? Perhaps that was your idea of humor. Actually, it was pretty funny.
You apparently think American values are using the IRS to target innocent citizens for harassment and illegal persecution for disagreeing with the current administration. Apparently you think paying more attention to campaigning and vacationing than to the security of our foreign services is an American virtue. Apparently you think the American character is running guns illegally to drug lords which causes the death of an American border agent. Obviously you think it American as apple pie to cynically lie about every aspect of a terrible law in order to get a foot in the socialism door.
I disagree.
@another+vet:Former Neb. Dem. Senator Bob Kerrey a decorated Navy Seal. I supported his short lived run for POTUS.
I have disagreed with many Dems. on many occasions. But similar to how many here at F.A, seem to hate Libs.,.I got a h.o. for just about everything the far right stands for.
Think John Kasich should get the Repub. nom and can win the Presidency. My choice would be decorated Marine Jim Webb.
@Rich+Wheeler:
That is not what the left preaches. They preach that what is inside there is like a blob or a tumor not a life. Ask them when it becomes a life and they can’t answer. I usually stay clear of the abortion issue because I believe it’s not in my place to force my morals on others nor should it be that of the government. However, when the left tries to claim the moral high ground as in this case and yet they have no problem with the abortion numbers in this country, it is laughable. They have no credibility. I’ll listen to and respect McCain’s position on this matter but not theirs. I had no regrets voting for him and his running mate and mailed my ballot from Baghdad. They were both unabashed supporters of the military and our mission over there unlike the majority of the Party. Remember what they did to Lieberman for supporting us?
This report was designed for the left to feel good about themselves and to attack those who tried to keep us safe. They could care less about whether or not American lives were saved or about those “tortured”. Besides, those terrorists were not civilians or members of a uniformed armed force. They were and still are unrepentant killing machines with no regard for human life, theirs or anybody elses. Had civilians or members of a captured foreign military been treated like that, it would have been different.
@Rich+Wheeler: Even though Webb would have the most appeal in the General Election, he will never make it through the primaries. Your party has been hijacked by the left.
@Aqua: And you guys, just like the terrorists in question here, no doubt had medical personal there to make sure your lives weren’t in danger.
@Bill, #43:
I don’t know how to respond to that. I simply don’t perceive that level of immediate danger. I grew up during an era when the threat of thermonuclear annihilation was entirely real. It sometimes seemed close. I was in Vietnam before I turned 20. Maybe my calibration is different.
The main danger I see at the moment is that of allowing ourselves to be frightened into engaging these people on their own terms. That’s the only way they could ever defeat us. There’s that, and the danger of our internal divisions, which is actually the one that worries me the most.
18 U.S. Code § 2340 – Definitions
As used in this chapter—
(1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
(2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
(C) the threat of imminent death; or
(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; and
(3) “United States” means the several States of the United States, the District of Columbia, and the commonwealths, territories, and possessions of the United States.
18 U.S. Code § 2340A – Torture
(a) Offense.— Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life.
(b) Jurisdiction.— There is jurisdiction over the activity prohibited in subsection (a) if—
(1) the alleged offender is a national of the United States; or
(2) the alleged offender is present in the United States, irrespective of the nationality of the victim or alleged offender.
(c) Conspiracy.— A person who conspires to commit an offense under this section shall be subject to the same penalties (other than the penalty of death) as the penalties prescribed for the offense, the commission of which was the object of the conspiracy.
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That’s the law, for whatever it’s worth.
@Greg:
Ah. There you go; I think we have located the problem.
First, let me tell you I appreciate your service in the military and Vietnam. I honestly do.
Now to the perception. See, immediately after 9/11, Bush and others DID perceive that level of threat and imminent danger. Bush has been blamed for allowing the attacks even though he had the problem dropped in his lap by Clinton (inherited, if you will) so he was a bit sensitive to allowing ANOTHER attack after the initial warning of the FIRST attack (reference Benghazi, 9/11/12). So, they decided to utilize any legal means necessary to get the intelligence needed to stop further attacks.
They succeeded, by the way.
If some want to condemn the practices based on their own morality, go ahead a do so. Simply do not lose sight of what was at stake. We can always offer up an apology for anyone unnecessarily hurt but we cannot retrieve those lives lost in other attacks. Attacks, by the way, which you on the left would blame entirely on Bush for not doing everything in his power to prevent.