When people think of a police state, they usually think of heavily armed, uniformed police kicking in doors and dragging out family members in the dark of the night. A police state doesn’t require police kicking down your door… at least not in the beginning, particularly when one is evolving from some other form of government, say for instance a constitutional republic. I’m not sure any police state ever came about as a result of some politician saying “When I get elected I’m going to use various elements of the government to take away your civil liberties, oppress my opponents and crush any opposition.” Typically dictators come to power promising to restore order amidst chaos or empowering the people against a tyrannical or corrupt regime. Putin was seen as bringing order to a crumbling Russia while Castro led a revolt against the corrupt Batista and Ayatollah Khomeini overthrew a hated monarch.
But this is the United States and by definition it could never become a police state.
But just for argument’s sake, let’s imagine someone had designs on becoming a dictator and wanted to turn the US into a police state, what kinds of things might be helpful? Obviously no dictator worth his salt wants to have opponents running around shining a light on his actions or stirring up the population against him or his policies. If only there was a way to keep opponents quiet. One way might be to choke off their funding by keeping them from raising much money and by intimidating their supporters. Check and check!
Of course, what good is being dictator if you can’t listen in to what subversive things people are saying about you… or anything else? Not much. As such it would be great to have a program where the government could listen in on every single phone conversation going on in the entire country… Not just when citizens are talking to known terrorists overseas, but simply when they are talking, period.. Check! But young people barely talk on the phone anymore… all they do is text, so you’d want to make sure you can see what’s going on there too. Check!
Unfortunately for you, every conversation in the country doesn’t occur on a phone as sometimes people still actually talk face to face. You might consider placing listening devices everywhere so you could listen in on those conversations too. Not likely however given the logistical nightmare it would be. If only there were a way to use their phones as listening devices, even when they’re turned off. Check! And maybe you could use the phone’s GPS data to track where everyone was at any point in time… and who they were with. Check!
As popular as talking on the phone is, people still spend a lot of time on computers at home. You’d probably want to have a program that allows you to monitor virtually everything anyone does online. Check!
Of course there is more to life than just what people say to one another.
It might also be helpful if you could make it so that a big portion of the population were dependent upon a check from the government (i.e. you), that way you could use that dependency as a tool with which to keep people in line and to whip up populist sentiment against anyone who was seeking to oppose your policies. Check!
As healthcare is pretty important to people, it might be very powerful tool to have if you could figure out a way to put the government in charge of everyone’s healthcare. Need that gall bladder operation or that cholesterol medicine? Let’s see what you’ve been up to first… Check.
Finally, as every good dictator knows, it’s important to disarm your enemies and potential enemies. Here you’d have to be very creative. A national background check before someone could buy a weapon would be a place to start. This would be particularly helpful if the agency operating such a system was allowed to define who it thought might be too dangerous to own a gun. A national registration where gun owner’s names and addresses were listed would be nice, and it would tell you exactly where to go to collect the guns whenever you’re ready. Not quite yet, but working on it.
But of course this is all hypothetical. As President Obama said: “If people can’t trust not only the executive branch but also don’t trust Congress, and don’t trust federal judges, to make sure that we’re abiding by the Constitution with due process and rule of law, then we’re going to have some problems here.”
I think we have some problems here… Even if this unprecedented level of power were exercised by someone as honest and virtuous – not to be confused with perfect – as George Washington, a man who turned down absolute power twice in one lifetime, it would be a problem. Barack Obama is certainly no George Washington and in his hands all of this is a giant problem. This power in the hands as one as arrogant, perfidious and incompetent as Barack Obama is the equivalent of setting fire to the Constitution itself.
As a nation of laws and imperfect men operating in a world where millions of people seek new ways to harm us daily, there are certain things that government must do, many of which may seem unseemly in the light of day. Most Americans understand that. The America Barack Obama is creating is something all together different. If a government listens to conversations of its citizens in some limited, controlled circumstances, most Americans would accept that. If however that power is virtually unlimited, and more onerously, it is combined with a government that simultaneously seeks to control virtually every aspect of a citizen’s life, from what they can say and who they can support, to what healthcare they can get to their ability to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights to the economic opportunities available to them, then the Constitution becomes little more than a piece of framed artwork.
All that being said, we owe Barack Obama a great deal of gratitude for all of this. Before him Americans were seemingly happy to continue moving down the one way path of allowing government to take control of more and more of their lives as they deluded themselves into believing that only men of great character would control the levers of power. By demonstrating with crystal clarity exactly how fragile our liberty is in the wrong hands, perhaps Americans will come to, push back and begin reining government back into the box our Founding Fathers drew for it so that no one of any stripe can turn it into a police state. Barack Obama may well end up transforming America after all. Hopefully it won’t be in quite the way he intended.
See author page
Can this eavesdropping be abused as badly as the IRS abused our tax requirements?
Yes….it already had been.
Navy Arab linguist David Murfee Faulk told ABC News
http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/11/two-times-the-government-used-its-anti-terrorism-powers-to-target-americans-not-engaged-in-terrorism/#ixzz2VuZhl7nJ
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=5987804&page=1
When concerns were raised with superiors about the nature of the calls they were listening in on, they were told “your job is not to question.”
No wonder Obama was able to rid himself of one General after another and Admirals, too (who happened to disagree with O’s policies).
He had these men listened to.
He had ”the goods,” on them.
Just like the Patriot Act was used to get Eliot Spitzer.
While I’m glad the Right has decided to pay attention to this for a change, unless they can prove the Executive is breaking the law, then their ire should be directed where it belongs – at Congress. After all, give anyone a power, and you can be sure they’ll use it. The GOP gave it to Bush pretty much unconditionally. You think a new president is gonna want to give it up once he gets into office and sees how things really work, no matter what campaign pledges they made?
It seems to me the problem here is not “oversight” or recording private communications. The problem is a large set of American people succumbing to fear propagated by a sleazy corporatocracy keeping their constituents minds off their real needs and progress.
For years now, congress has been cowardly unburdening itself of politically difficult responsibilities, like security and war, by shifting power to the executive. They do this with vague legislation, like undefined, undeclared war. Basically, after 911, the congress gave the White House carte blanche war powers to fight what is essentially a quasi-organized international criminal movement. We didn’t need one single solitary new law to deal with that. Now we have the foundation of a police super-state.
Meanwhile, the very Right Wing that instigated all this, from the Cold War to today, hides behind a professed surprise that this is suddenly happeneing. Ya’ just can’t win with that crowd.
What will be Obama’s “Reichtag fire”? Biden would make a good van der Lubbe.
ATTENTION!
Including Hussein Obama and John Boner.
To all those who think that Edward Snowden is a traitor:
GET A LIFE!
COMPLAINING? Is Snowden violating the law?
IT’S LIKE THE POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK.
@This one: “Blame Congress”
We are well aware of the left’s tactic to demonize congress for not giving in to everything they want. A childishly ignorant view.
You’re towing a campaign and propaganda line, not adding to the conversation.
Some call him “o-blama” for reason . . . and his followers reflect this fallacy far too often.
@AdrianS, #4:
It might be more than a matter of violating the law. It might be a matter of deliberately compromising our national security.
My initial conclusion was that Snowden hadn’t revealed anything that wasn’t public knowledge already. That was before I saw a bit of what he has attempted to release in a PowerPoint display. The first 5 slides suggest that he’s heading into the area of some very specific information. There are 36 more slides that the media has refrained from publishing.
Greg, while others have been rushing to canonization, I tend to hold with your original gut instincts about Snowden, as they mirrored my own. The stench on this is overwhelming. And instead of weighing in prematurely, I’ve been collecting research and data before coming to conclusions on a lot of things.
First, addressing the slide show. The media additions to the slide show.. i.e. most importantly in portraying what PRISM is, or how it works… is all conjecture. i.e. they assume that the name, “PRISM” was based on splitting light, and therefore some subterfuge as to the NSA placing some splitter beam on Tier 1 electronic transmissions that wouldn’t be noticed by those larger scale cyberspace providers. There have been a couple of articles via the technical world that have disputed that such could happen without significantly compromising performance that is expect by using these Tier 1 capabilities (i.e. the fast loading of Skype/Facebook, etc)
So let’s go back to the partial release of a Powerpoint, and then examine Snowden himself. This is a young man who was a mere 16 years old when Eric Kleinsmith was busy erasing the entire database of Able Danger… a demonstration program of the potential power – and pit falls – of data mining various data sets to analyze national security risks and ID potential attacks before implementation. The timeline of his bio, as provided by him to Guardian, suggests that not only only was he an IT “cyber janitor” of a network security system for a mere few years, but that his own reflection on his import and past resume is highly embellished.
I’ve been thinking of doing a post on this… knowing full well it will do little to dissuade those that are determined to find a boogieman under every bed… but let me give you a summary of things I’ve found. But here’s some of the basics on Snowden.
He was at the private contractor – Booz Allen – for a short three months. He rented his Hawaiian home for six months… of which neighbors noted he kept windows blocked off with “boxes” for the duration so that no one could see in. Working backwards in his brief work resume, and not knowing his time in between jobs, that takes us to late 2012 or early 2013 for private contractor employment.Slow mover? Or intent for a preplanned and secretive agenda?
Per his “resume” to The Guardian’s Greenwald, he was “sent” to Geneva, with “diplomatic” status, in 2007 as a CIA employee. His tasks there were not to tap into data as an analyst (and with legal authorization), but to maintain the IT security network. Ergo, the “cyber janitor” description. But then there’s five years between 2007/Geneva and the private contractor employment. Yet he says he only had exposure to “CIA agents” for less than three years.
So what was he doing when he started with the CIA, and did he ever get more authority? All authorities and indications say, resoundingly, no.
Thus his statements about being able to tap into anyone he wished are semi-accurate. He may have had the access because he maintained the security systems. He did not have the legal right because that was not his job. Nor did he have the legal authorization via FISC to do so.
“Hackers” authorization? Perhaps that is all he needed.
There have been other articles suggesting that a guy who never served in combat, and exited the military late 2004/early 2005 (less than two yrs total) because of injuries to two broken legs in special forces training, was actually recruited in to the “intelligence” business because of his hacking skills… despite his top education being a GED.
Despite Snowden’s brief appearance in the military, he came away with a bad taste in his mouth.. PO’ed because those training him seemed to be more focused on “killing Arabs” instead of freeing people from oppression. So he was anti-military/US wars since his discharge.
After his discharge, he went to work… presumably after his two broken legs healed… as a security guard at an NSA facility. This gave him no access to the computers, unless he was at a keyboard conducting unauthorized hacking, while walking his rounds.
Per his own account, he says he was in Geneva as of 2007, but spent less than three years “around CIA agents” and “rose quickly” thru the ranks. He only volunteers one job description – assuming he was with the CIA from 2007 to late 2012, without interruption of employment, for five years. That being IT security maintenance. Yet he says his girlfriend bought the idea that he’d be gone because being “in the intelligence business” for almost a decade “wasn’t unusual”.
Well, “almost a decade” puts him at 19… and just entering the military. Embellishment much? And is a “security guard” at NSA in the “intelligence business”? Well sure… but then, using that same standard, so is the guy who cleans the facilities toilets at night as well. Again, embellishment much?
What this comes down to is that there is a guy who came out of the military, already disgruntled at America, “killing Arabs”, and then set about working his way into intelligence facilities. He freely admits he wanted to “blow the whistle” sooner than he did. Why didn’t he? Did he not have the full access prior to his private contractor job?
Snowden is no whistleblower. That is a category reserved for those who take a specific path to correct what they feel is a wrong. No “whistleblower” steals data… which he wasn’t using as an operative to translate or interpret data, but as a maintenance guy… then bypasses the same whistleblower path used by operatives with higher clearance than him. Instead, he blocks off a house from view, steals data, cleans out the house then heads for a territory under the thumb of Beijing.
Wait… not finished. PRISM, as noted in Rand Corporation documents, stands for “Planning Tool for Resource Integration, Synchronization, and Management”. A resource integration program is a top application that helps with sifting thru different protocol data sets to aid in management and interoperability. It is not, as portrayed by the clueless, a “collection” device or some high tech “bug” on various cyber space operations.
Here’s where this really gets ugly for who Snowden is, his low operative status, and his way of “protesting”. PRISM is utilized at the Unified Pacific Command in Honolulu. Under the Pacific Command’s area jurisdiction are China and North Korea.
So this guy… who isn’t an analyst, and who hates Americans “killing Arabs”, but a cyber network janitor… steals secrets from a huge military facility using this resource integration system that oversees China and Korea and heads to Hong Kong instead of going thru whistleblower channels?
This is damned ugly. We have no idea what he made copies of, but we sure knew where he decided to take refuge. And none of it looks good for him. Or the US, for that matter.
As far as fooling his girlfriend… well, the fact that they cleared out of their rental home indicates that she knew he wasn’t gone for “only a couple of weeks”. This has been preplanned and carefully executed by a high school drop out cyber geek. And I assure you, I don’t see much patriotic and wishing to stand up for civil rights in his behavior.
This is a dangerous young man, and his intent is far from admirable. The damage from this could be immense. And I don’t believe for one minute it has to do with protecting civil rights.
The three amigo’s, clapper, hagel and Kerry, all dumber than a box of rocks, narcissistic, whore dogs and confirmed alcoholics. And you wonder what is wrong with the IC in this country. 16 separate intelligence agencies and all dumb. out of all these agencies, no one suspected this alleged “traitor”, according to boner, a bigger kiss butt, to defect. He just got tied of the crap and walked..
How much did he expose and how much did he really know?
Has anyone seen the most recent picture of boner, looks hung over, a lot like kerry during sensate confirmation.
Welcome to america.
@Nan G, you deserve your own more in depth answer. Don’t have time now, but let me give you a few things to think about before I address the “I was against it before I was for it” conservative media argument.
Both Adrienne and Faulk have been darlings of the progressive left since 2008. Both were translator whistleblowers, operating under 2004-2006 FISA rules… meaning that they were given instructions to translate *all* satellite transmissions emanating from the ME region. It was not their job to decide whether those translated transmissions were deleted at their stage of the chain. Also, FISA laws were different in that era than today. Much of the technology has been instrumental in refining laws since the NSA was created in 1951, so the circumstances and legal decisions since the time of Amy Goodman’s heroine have changed.
It’s not to say that oversight and concern doesn’t need to remain vigilant and vigorous. Only that dredging up old progressives as heroes is quite counterproductive to a national security argument today. FISA has been in regular oversight and overhaul for the past decade.
Both Faulk and Adriennne ended up being whistleblowers (unlike Snowden, which I believe you see is a different and suspect critter). I’ve got a lot more on the history etc of Adrienne and Faulk. But let’s just put it this way. Newsbusters back in 2008 used the same two individuals to examine the claim vs the agenda. i.e. yes.. they complained. But what was their job, was it legal at that time, how did they address it and was it addressed?
So you might want to think twice about evoking a new conservative media who, like all too many, tend to be current events challenged in omissions when pushing a particular agenda today. While I think all citizens need to be concerned about crossing the line, this isn’t a new argument and past experiences aren’t necessarily mirrors of today’s experiences.
There is much about the NSA/Snowden today that can be characterized as “I was before it before I was against it” in the conservative world. What I’m really wondering is if anyone wants to examine that so very closely.
Mitch McConnell has called for the full prosecution under the law of Snowden. I personally think this 29 year old analyst and his pole dancing girlfried are a BIT off center— by comparison Julian Assange seems sane.
@MataHarley:
To distort Johann Wolfgang von Goethe: “Thinking is not enough- you must apply; teasing is not enough- you must do!” 😀
Wordsmith: To distort Johann Wolfgang von Goethe: “Thinking is not enough- you must apply; teasing is not enough- you must do!”
LOL! You know, mon ami Word, that I don’t bend to peer pressure. Even tho that of the most adored sources of peers. I have a life. And it doesn’t revolve around political BS daily.
I’m compiling daily. Haven’t got the time to construct all the timeline/history now. but then it’s not a stagnant thing. Every day brings another revelation as well as new hyperbole. It’s not like history and reality will go away. The documentation from A to Z will exist in all timelines – no matter how delayed in their publications. :0)
And other countries are up in arms because what the NSA is doing (PRISM) with barry’s blessings is illegal in their country – even in Russia
Although this has been happening years before, barry has taken it beyond the realm and has obliterated the 4th amendment
This man was courageous . A traitor? I am not convinced yet.
Do you even know what PRISM is, disenchanted? And how has “barry taken it beyond the realm”?
Just looking for facts vs hyperbole. And wondering if you know a lick of history.
Mata Harley
yes this comment is a POST by itself, you know better than give it a comment space,
NOT only once YOU MADE POSTS which had a continuance as they where developing,
I’m thinking of the GULF SPILL which took many add ups and dealt with many experts
remember OIL GUY FROM ALBERTA , and the other comments, plus the part of my favorite actor
his name slip me it’s just on the tip of my tongue,
plus the military POSTS and the TRILATERAL POST, excetera.
they where growing up as the followed events happened ,
the commenters love that gradual elaboration of a real live story,
and CURT also made real good one recently,
and in these crucial times in HISTORY we need to be invigorated by the AUTHORS which VINCE is also from them.
thank you VINCE, you give us good one to bring the best or the worse in the COMMENTS but we have no restraint
always drawn by the POST SUBJECT you all chose,
we get hungryer and need it more.
that’s what FLOPPING ACES is all about,
we can cry today, we throw the chairs tomorrow , we laugh the next day. all mix into the POSTS
from our best and UNIQUE MINDSET AUTHORS,
I have to mention the BEST COMMENTS GROUP also,
bye
Great post. Killer line: “This power in the hands as one as arrogant, perfidious and incompetent as Barack Obama is the equivalent of setting fire to the Constitution itself.”
ThomNJ
I like it too because it’s not only in words,
it’s visual,where I CAN SEE THE CONSTITUTION BEING BURN,
OBAMA has done it in words and actions, now we are seeing it clearly.
the best AMERICA LOVERS had said it from way back,
how come we cannot UNDO and ship back those in POWER who want to destroy AMERICA,
or hang them for TREASON to AMERICA.
IT was done so fast before when the POPULATION WAS MOSTLY TRUE AMERICANS
In the past I have mentioned that Obama uses a teleological form of thinking: if I wish it so hard enough it should be so.
The actor Peter Pan imploring the audience to clap so Tinker Belle is ”cured” from the poison she drank is a great example of this form of thinking.
Of course, Obama doesn’t believe in this sort of thinking; he uses it as his excuse for why his programs don’t work: you all didn’t go along perfectly enough.
In the ”war on terror,” Obama recently gave a speech calling that war ”over.”
Of course our collective enemy still is trying to terrorize Americans.
We have seen a butt-bomb kill three Americans since Obama’s speech.
We have heard of two planes diverted for threats, one even got a military escort to its emergency landing.
So, the war ending is only in Obama’s head.
Al Qaeda and all other Islamist extremists are still alive and not ”on the run.”
So, will a strong defense in terms of data mining make up for a weak-to-non-existent offense?
Obama is trying to convince us it will.
But, in his need to never ”profile,” Obama must watch all of us!
Then he has to sift through mountains of garbage to find the gems.
God forbid we’d ”profile.”
So, we all must be mined for data.
How convenient that, whenever an admiral or general has disagreed with an Obama policy Obama has managed to KNOW little secrets about that career military leader!
That’s the little unspoken-about perk of data mining everyone.
Obama has a real cracked view of who our enemies and our friends really are.
The Boston bombers managed to slip through, you see.
Here’s my latest take… I see the controlling regime, and the festering politicians infesting it, together with the press are all working very hard to demonize Snowden and form a picture of him as an enemy of the state. Those efforts alone indicate to me that he is probably telling the truth. I believe if he hadn’t identified himself, he would have just disappeared after the first story, maybe killed, maybe stuck anonymously in Gitmo. His run to China was no accident, nor was his subsequent disappearance; this story is far from over.
Nan G
notice, everytime OBAMA mention some of those lines,
the retaliation come soon after, think of the DRONES
to the ALQAEDA high ranking and his son, what happen to the BENGHASI after massacre ,
he is TAUNTING them and wilfuly to get their answers,
he put the responsibility to the VIDEO FROM THE COPTIC CHRISTIAN who end up in prison,
for exposing his EGYPT BIRTH PLACE massacre of many COPTIC CHRISTIANS crucified and killed for being CHRISTIANS,
OBAMA GAVE HIM TO THE LIONS TO EAT SO TO SAVE HIS NECK.
he said IT”S NOT ME < IT"S THE OTHER GUY THE AMERICAN COPTIC CHRISTIAN"S FAULT FOR OFFENDING YOU.
we will put him in PRISON, and he might still be there,
and noting about the MASSACRE of the BENGHASI and no retaliation, either,
go in peace ALQAEDA, you are safe,
what is the NSA ? no alqaeda , don't worry, it's not for you ,it's against AMERICANs.
If you’ve given up your gun rights and your rights to privacy … those rights guaranteed by the Constitution,
What the hell we fighting for?
@MataHarley:
So because my comments piss you off and that I perhaps don”t agree with you, you attack me personally? Tells me a lot about your character.
@MataHarley:
I don’t know one way or the other about Snowjob, I’ll reserve judgement for now.
He said he and many others had authorization to do it. Even if he didn’t have authorization, he and many others obviously have the ability to do so. Just like the IRS folks had the ability to target certain groups. What is to keep the rouge NSA or NSA contractors from using the data against average everyday folks? There are already rumors going around that the administration used PRISM to take Petraeus down. I’m not ready to jump on that bandwagon just yet, but the pattern of activity lately certainly doesn’t put it out of the realm of possibilities.
And that is the real story. Snowjob may very well be a traitor, and a lot of what he is saying may be BS. But we know phone records are being stored, and digital data is being stored via PRISM.
That’s not what the slides show.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/prism-collection-documents/
I’ve see the slides and have them in the archive of bookmarked reading I’ve been collecting since this started, Aqua. The annotations were added by WaPo staff and not on the slides. i.e. that specific language pointing to the PRISM logo that says:
Wordsmith posted a Most Wanted article on Sunday titled “Wapo Was Wrong About Prism” from Lawfare. Lawfare was discussing a CNET article by Declan McCullough. You should read McCullough’s article thoroughly, and visit the multiple links provided that back up what he is saying. PRISM is not some secret spy program… it’s a web application tool used to manage data processing of various data sets and is not only confined to the NSA for use. The Rand Corporation makes mention of PRISM and it’s use in it’s 2007 analysis, called “A Strategies-to-Tasks Framework for Planning and Executing Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance (ISR) Operations”.
PRISM is just a data set management and integration application tool. It doesn’t create the databases, it merely functions as ways to manage, search, and integrate interoperability for databases. To put it insanely simple, it’s like someone thinking a “Control F” command is a spy program, when all it really does is search thru a database for a pattern, model, or criteria that you have filled in.
That’s why I keep asking people… do you even know what PRISM is? Because if they start out with the Alex Jones definition instead of the actual tech tool it is, you’re skewed from the start.
Speaking of skewed..
First of all, I didn’t attack you personally and if it was worded in a way that you took is as such, then I apologize. I can only assume you refer to my comment about knowing “a lick of history”. But history plays a large part of what’s going on today, and if you don’t know it, you’re headed off into LaLa land with “barry did it” type accusations that simply don’t match that history, as well as the attention that Congress has been paying to amending FISA multiple times over the past decade.
You made a few statements, but don’t seem to want to be specific. Since none of them actually jive with factual truth, I asked. Again:
1: Do you know what PRISM is? What it does? How it works?
2: Considering that the multiple whistle blowers (i.e. Faulk/Adrienne in 2004 INRE satellite phone monitoring, and Binney etal a few years later for AT&T) all happened prior to “barry”, and when data collection (not to be confused with PRISM) was going on, exactly what has “barry” done to make it worse? Or, do you not know the history of NSA whisteblowers?
Do you not know that data collection has been going on since the 70s and 80s in earnest, and the only thing that’s changed is the electronic medium used for information collection? So much so that Bill Clinton and Congress put in the USSID Directive 18 in place back in 1993?
Since you say it’s gotten “worse” under “barry”, how is that? The fact is, prior to the Clinton directives and the various whistleblowers and lawsuits by the EFF, it was much worse and had less oversight than it has today.
Are you aware that the largest contractors providing the database, as noted on those slides, did so voluntarily in a contract with the government starting back in 2008. That would make their data sharing legal. Are you aware that when you give your information to a 3rd party, there are risks as to how much privacy you can expect? You are aware that metadata is not protected under 4th Amendment and never has… even prior to “barry”?
Are you also aware that what started all this… i.e. Snowden’s “exposure” of the Verizon order for a “secret” court that hasn’t been a “secret” since it’s creation in the 1970s… was part of a government contract with Verizon Wireless to facilitate a partial sale to Britain’s Vodaphone, and disclosed in an SEC filing?
And for the final time… Snowden is not a whistleblower. He chose not to take the procedural path provided for this within our system. A path that would still afford some protection in national security classified information while getting the system checked out thru Congressional hearings and possible lawsuits. Binney was a whistleblower. Snowden? He stole data and then headed to China, contacting not our legislators to effect oversight and investigations, but instead contacting a leftist foreign media while hiding under the thumb of Beijing.
No.. what you said did not “piss” me off. What it told me is that most people aren’t curious enough to delve back into what has been an ongoing debate about the balance of procedural intelligence for national security and privacy concerns. Instead they prefer to just exercise another way to say “barry did it” each day. Unfortunately, if we are to uncover genuine intrusions and correct them, holding to partisan hatred as a foundation is counterproductive to the end goal of reasonable data collection so that we can sort out what the bad guys are planning.
Aqua
as PRESIDENT of this super COUNTRY and NATION , with THE WORLD EYES ON IT,
constantly, he has been given too much POWER for who he is able and merit it,
from his last years actions,
there is no controversy anymore those POWERS must be remove as soon as now,
who can do it, who can remove power and keep him there impossible task,
what would be the aftermath ? who would instantly take the power on his shoulder,
why not reverse a coup he is trying to achieve by another instantly COUP to have the right person
take on the cut lost power of the previous one,
A person resource from this PARTY we can TRUST more,
a coup to replace a miss coup by OBAMA now expose
Have any of you ever heard this? It is so frightening. It appears to be very real.
@MataHarley:
I’ve read the article. I’ve also looked up the Rand Corps PRISM, and it looks to be an unclassified 2004 project for DHS. I’m not sure how an unclassified program that belongs to the DHS can be the same as a Top Secret project that belongs to the NSA.
@Art:
Wayne Allyn Root was a grad of the same year as Obama from Columbia.
He was a fellow student who neither met nor knows any other fellow student who met Obama or saw him in any classes.
A professor Henry Graff (now retired) taught during Obama’s time at Columbia but knows he never saw him in any of his classes.
But there are SOME secrets America must keep.
Not your medical records.
1 out of every 10 Americans has had his medical records leaked.
10 million just in CA.
Not who you call.
Not who you email.
Not who you read in books or on line.
Not the sealed divorce papers of TWO of Obama’s opponents.
No.
But Obama’s college records are TOP top secret.
@Nan G: #19,
Whatever his teleprompter tells us probably has little to do with what he thinks on the subject, any subject it seems.
As to this Administration’s message on ‘terrorists’ and ‘Al-Qaeda’ ever since the football spiking on Bin Laden (Al-Qaeda seems to not to know that it is “on the run,” now that BL has been killed), let’s look for an alternate opinion not so laden with exotic antipathetic ideological purpose – here is a current report from CSIS the Canadian Security Intelligence Service. The report is extensive, and indicates that terrorism’s organization is not only spreading its tentacles, but it is becoming more unpredictable.
We have no idea what the truth is when listening to this Administration, or what it intends when it claims it will redefine the war on terror and “. . .this war, like all wars, must end.” However, why lie about the fact that Al-Qaeda has NOT been “routed.”
Perhaps this is a brilliant ‘strategy’ to allay Al-Qaeda’s fears, lulling its network into believing we’re not after them.
However, let’s look at what CSIS cautions:
Naj. Hasan’s ”defense” atty’s are REFUSING to assist him in his affirmative defense.
Remember Obama declared this to be WORKPLACE VIOLENCE.
Maj. Hasan’s defense is that he was helping HIS SIDE in a WAR!!!
Obama Cannot allow that defense.
Maj. Hasan is going to be on his own.
Who didn’t see this coming?
Well, the media acted as if they didn’t.
Very little coverage….certainly not coverage of how his defense screws Obama.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57588848/fort-hood-shooting-suspect-defense-attorneys-at-odds/
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/us/nidal-malik-hasan-wants-more-help-from-his-lawyers.html?_r=0
One outlet ”gets it.”
But it is NOT a major news outlet:
http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/060613-659081-nidal-hasan-admits-ft-hood-was-terrorism.htm
Hasan Exposes Obama’s False Workplace Violence Claim
OBAMA:
@Aqua, Declan’s CNET article was substantiated by a DNI release on June 8th.
For an eye glazing technological analysis as to how data collection – not to be confused with PRISM that merely facilitates/sifts/manages data that has been collected – *may* work, CDNET did an article earlier this month as well, addressing the technologies that may be used.
The questions INRE data collection and intel can be boiled down to this.
1: what data sets does the government already have at it’s disposal?
2: what data sets are already public domain and require no particular permission to access
3: what private companies are sharing their data sets, as is legal since once you turn your information over to a 3rd party, they have that right (not to mention they already know a heckuva lot about you too)
4: what data sets are they collecting outside of legal parameters?
Data mining in general is a mixed result, IMHO. First of all, you can’t detect models and patterns in possible terrorist activity without a relatively complete and quality database. (not to mention a sophisticated resource integrating application that can take all that data, with different operating protocol, and automatically “translate” it as one across all info platforms). If it’s too small, it’s ineffective. If it’s too large, you get too many “false positives” from the patterns. Hence why so many people ended up on TSA no fly lists. BTW, some excellent reading is the latest version of the CRS report on Data Mining and Homeland Security. You can read earlier versions back to May 2003 at the CRS site. The amount of projects that are, and have been, out there is staggering.
On one hand, you have to start with some database that is relatively wide. Generally it’s not specifics… phone numbers that can be traced to other phone numbers of suspected terrorists etc. If you see a suspected pattern, then you have to drill down into the specifics. But you have to start somewhere.
Able Danger was a demonstration of using the latest algorithms at that time. That was circa 1999-2000. Some, like Tony Schaefer, said that Atta showed up on that data mining experiment. Others disputed that. Because it was a demonstration – and again those false positives had created a pretty wide net of possibilities – Able Danger’s data was deleted. That data mining experiment used “open source” data from the internet for the data set.
When you consider the down side of data mining for patterns, the larger the data set, the better quality the data… but then you pull in too many names that become associated for the wrong reasons. Much like searching Osama Bin Laden then links both Bush and Obama.
On the up side, the false positives still creates a smaller net than focusing on the larger target of the entire world in communications. I don’t know what the answer is and again that balance has to be struck. They need to monitor electronic communications in this New Info Age since that is how terrorists plan and communicate. On the other hand, they have to do so within reasonable privacy parameters.
i.e. Adrienne and Faulk were translators, and they were instructed to translate all satellite phone conservations that emanated from the Middle East. They felt that monitoring satellite private conversations from soldiers was a breach of privacy. Technically, they did not have the authority to decide that one conversation should not be translated or transcribed, and another did. That was a job for someone higher up in the chain. At the time that higher official/analyst determined that the conversation was not terrorist related, the conversations were to be deleted. Adrienne and Faulk were insisting they weren’t deleted. That should have been checked in to, and was because they went via the standard whistleblower procedure.
As for the authority to translate *all* satellite phone calls from the Middle East, the Bush admin stated that these phones do not always stay in the same hands, so they couldn’t block numbers via association. i.e. that satellite phone may end up being confiscated by an enemy in the course of combat. Whether that ended up being legally justified, I don’t know. But I certainly understand the theory.
There’s no doubt it’s thin ice trying to do this stuff. There is also no doubt that such information can be abused by some… as the IRS and EPA have been doing. It’s sort of a baby/bath water scenario. Do the benefits of terrorist attack prevention outweigh the risk of abuse? And if abused, is there ample oversight for penalties.
One thing is for sure… there is, and never has been, much privacy using our new information tools. What’s out there remains out there, and can easily be scooped up by not only government, but by hackers and tech savvy IT types for any personal gain. And that includes companies like Facebook, Twitter etal, selling your personal information (i.e. their own data mining) for advertising purposes.
@MataHarley:
I’m more than a little familiar with data mining and data collection. You missed one in the boiled down questions, but picked it up later.
Anyone online is subject to data mining. If you have an Amazon account and you are searching Google or somewhere else for a certain item, you may be surprised the next day when you have an email from Amazon listing the very items you were searching for elsewhere. If you don’t pay for a product, you are the product.
But it’s an entirely different animal when the feds do it. They have the ability to completely destroy your life. Right now we three federal departments that appear to use any means necessary to get what they want; the DOJ, the EPA, and the IRS.
And that is where you picked up the most important part to be boiled down:
@Disenchanted: Where did Mata attack you personally?
She said, “Do you even know what PRISM is, disenchanted? And how has “barry taken it beyond the realm”?
Just looking for facts vs hyperbole. And wondering if you know a lick of history. ”
Because I’m reading that and I’m pretty hard pressed to find an insult.
You made the following claims:
So what other countries, beside Russia are “up in arms?” And please show some proof along with your statements.
How has “barry” taken it “beyond the realm?” I mean, all we’re asking for is some proof of your claims. I mean, I’m sure you wouldn’t just type your opinion and try to pass it off as fact. Right?
Let me add an update to my comment #7 on Snowden… It appears he’s now decided his venue to pass on documents is the South China Morning Post.. where’s he been handing them “proof” of the US hacking China. Seems he’s pretty incensed about that…
Oh my.. .this is what happens when misguided and impressionable youth with a disdain towards the US learns only one side of the coin of history. He doesn’t seem to be bothered about China’s history of hacking the US, nor theft of intellectual property. But then, perhaps it’s all perspectives as to where your loyalties lie.
@Nan G: Wayne Allen Root who ran for Veep on the Libertarian ticket and graduated from Columbia in 1983 has never claimed that Obama didn’t attend.Said many interviewed can’t confirm his attendance–difference
Google Obama’s roommate Phil Boerner who has much to say. Columbia U. says he graduated. This ranks with the “Kenyan birth” as a very foolish claim.
Anticsrocks How are you? A comment has gotta get over a pretty high bar for You to consider it an insult.lol
BTW Breitbart produced a diploma.
@MataHarley:” Misguided and impressionable youth with a distain for U.S and no KNOWLEDGE OF HISTORY—-” Exactly— This kid better get a good lawyer.
Has his pole dancing girlfriend vacated the plush Hawaiian pad?.
Like some here, I am puzzled, OK, maybe somewhat astonished that Snowden is being labelled a hero by much of the confused media such as that enclave of ultra conservative thought and Republican support The New Yorker.
Not from what we might guess, but from what we know, he is a thief.
Insecure? = Probably.
Confused? = Obviously.
Whistleblower? = Not by any definition.
Self-serving? = Evidently.
Bought? = Possibly (China has just a little too much go gain here having invaded both US and Canadian IP infrastructures).
Smart? = Not so much it appears.
Slick? = Apparently. He appropriated ‘clearance’ with someone’s approval.
Morals? = None, but self-righteous in spades.
American? = Maybe so from birth place, but not evident from actions.
Conscience? = None evident so far. He could have taken any number of other routes to ‘righting a wrong,’ and going to Hong Kong was his first prospect?
Idiot. Dangerous idiot.
But then, it may turn out that he’s brilliant and loves his country and loves the Constitution and actually knows something about China.
This is the foundation of the problem, as I see it, Aqua. Who is it but WaPo and uninformed media.. and perhaps equally under-informed Snowden… asserting that PRISM is a “top secret” and “classified project? Sundry officials have come forward and said it’s not a correct portrayal of the application. But people have it in their minds that PRISM is now some Hoover vacuum splitter system that was secretly placed somewhere in the transmission lines. It was speculation to it’s name, and what it was.
Again, this all goes back to Verizon and the FISC order by Vinson. An order that turns out is related to a government agreement in order to sell some of Verizon Wireless. And to keep the misinformation still going in high gear, it was portrayed that Verizon had to turn over personal conversations, substance etal.
Well, Vinson’s order spells out quite plainly the duration for records that needed to be provided, and what those telephony metadata was specifically. And it’s not people talking to each other about what they had for breakfast.
So it seems that the staring point for the scandal belies the notion that conservations are being listened to, when the FISC order says entirely different.
@Richard Wheeler, pole dancing gal pal and the guy who thought he fooled her into believing he was only away for two weeks as part of his “decade” of intelligence work both cleared out of the house at the same time. When they sent someone by before the Guardian article came out, the place was empty.
She knew he wasn’t going to be gone just two weeks, or she’d still be sitting there, wondering why he abandoned her and isn’t paying for the house on his $200K… er, $122K… salary. It might be that she needs a good lawyer too. But I’m sure notoriety will pay better than pole dancing.
@James Raider, Snowden’s only redemption could be if he’s being deliberately, and overtly, planted in the heart of China as a dual agent. Somehow, I’m thinking that’s closer to a Hollywood view than reality.
HONG KONG is a COUNTRY was a DEMOCRATIC BEFORE CHINA came back to cease them
they where more BRITISH THAN CHINESE and CAPITALIST, THEY BECAME VERY RICH,
and did not want to be integrate to CHINA which offer to respect their fundamental rights of freedom.
so for them FREEDOM IS TOP IN IMPORTANCE in their COUNTRY and very respected and worth fighting for.
that’s why MR SNOWDEN decided to go there where he knew he would be respected,
and it’s one more who lost his trust to AMERICA no not AMERICA, but to the over reaching OBAMA on who he call his ENEMIES and demonize them with his party of parakeets repeating his negatives hateful words
to their voters which believe them as their word,
he has manage to spread the hate for THE CONSERVATIVES , and TEA PARTY in a way we have seen the scope of it with THE IRS EMPLOYEES abusive tactics, going back right to OBAMA’S feeling against the opponent,
how can they be BIPARTISAN when they know the degree of hate has become from OBAMA BELIEVERS, in their WORK of
fixing the problems of AMERICANS on jobs and only one is claiming to be the I WON. you all do as I say.
nope not with the CONSERVATIVES it doesn’t work that way.
Bees, Hong Kong has not been under British governance since the late 90s. And if you read the human rights organizations reports, their civil rights have been steadily eroding since that time. Hong Kong now falls under China’s umbrella… which may explain why Snowden is talking to the Chinese media and handing over documents to them.
@ilovebeeswarzone: Hong Kong has never been a country and was not Democratic while a British Colony.
Respect in H.K.? Won’t get much in U.S.
See M.H. and J.R. comments above.
Seems Mata types faster than I do.
My favorite description of Snowden thus far is “A National Security Kim Kardashian”:
we don’t seem to read the same news papers,
so we three might be right on it.
IT ERODED probably since they are under the umbrella of CHINA
@ilovebeeswarzone: I’m thinking you might provide great diversionary help for Snowden. Can you get to Hong Kong?
@MataHarley: #40,
This is where there is extensive potential for embarrassing revelation.
This numbskull is suspiciously making strange, untrue ‘statements’ about his new host. Corruption in China is more pervasive and much broader than it is anywhere else, for the simple reason that China’s exports are bigger than any other country’s, other than the US.
Trillions of dollars passing through very corrupt hands manipulated by a ruthless communist party. I’m not saying all are corrupt, just anyone who gets close to serious money, which these days is significant. Who knows who got to this goof?
One more thing.
The separation of the Red Sea must have been fascinating. I’m thrilled to be able to see the parting of ideologies like the parting of the sea. The “Republicans”, who were recently fighting to get truth from the IRS, NSA , Benghazi, and many other scandals, are now parted along their true ideological lines. The Liberal Republicans are split and go to the side of calling the revelation that the government is spying on it’s citizens without Constitutional authority, illegal. Never mind that the government is conducting subversive activities. Even many liberals are saying kill the messenger; Snowden should be hung. He is a hero. Keep your eyes on the real mischief of government.
Here is my point. The Conservatives, not all “Republicans” (those call RINOs – Republicans in name only), defenders of the Constitution come hell or high water, are celebrating Snowden and NOT getting lost or swayed by the hype oozing from Washington. The law, the highest in the land (the Constitution of the United States of American) can NOT (that is N-O-T) be changed but by the prescribed method defined in the Constitution itself.
Therefore, judges with their subversive decisions, politicians with their many-worded explanations about how those who do not favor spying are somehow in favor of letting our enemies attack us, and others, STEP ASIDE. Your decisions, conclusions and other ramblings mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. NOTHING AT ALL UNTIL THE CONSTITUTION IS CHANGED. Until then, step aside, “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.” Read it and weep. And unless you like it dirty like in Turkey today, I suggest that ALL start obeying the high law of the land explicitly.
Don’t kill or burn the messenger and don’t get distracted. The government CANNOT lawfully collect, even in secret, any personal information without PROBABLE CAUSE, which in the current crisis is lacking. I say to the government, go back to the drawing board and find a way to accomplish all that is needed for our safety and the preservation of American’s rights.
Remember that the information that is being illegally collected can and will be used to spy on your business, your family, your farm, your education, your entertainment, your browsing, your corporation to the advantage of those who can afford to buy the spied information. There is more inherent danger in the amount of secrecy that’s going on in this country. The ones who should be rounded up and imprisoned are those who are violating the Constitution and engaged in activities that are patently illegal. Anyone with the perverse idea that those who oppose the NSA spying are in favor of allowing attacks on America are devoid of values and integrity.
Close the Utah spy farm and return to our democracy or proceed at your own peril.
Richard Wheeler
I don’t have no answer for MR SNOWDEN’S ACTIONS,
but take note that he is not the only one who don’t believe
anything the WHITE HOUSE sais or does from now on since the scandals open wide.
to the WORLD
AdrianS
that is good
thank you.
Metadata is not, and never has been, “personal information”, which is why there are long time precedents about it being outside 4th Amendment protection.
Disenchanted
hi,
I believe what you said, that the WORLD is not happy to learn now of the
LEAKS from the WHISTLE BLOWERS , because they learn precisely their COUNTRIES are being search,
it sure not pleasant to know for them also, and the AL QAEDAS probably making plans to mute the system on their next agenda,
anticrock
how are you doing,
good I guess,
nice to have you in the battle of the FLOPPING ACES
which you are one of them.
bye