Brian Terry’s parents:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0ZSBMpJvp8[/youtube]
And here is just one reminder on why Obama and pals started the operation in the first place:
Documents obtained by CBS News show that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) discussed using their covert operation “Fast and Furious” to argue for controversial new rules about gun sales.
Hundreds died, along with one of our Border Patrol agents, all because they wanted more gun control.
The left is crying that this is all politics in an election year. But I would remind them that none of this would have happened if this administration had just been truthful from the beginning. Admit they made a mistake and take their lumps a year ago. But no. As we see, the cover-up is usually much more damaging than the actual crime:
February 4, 2011: Responding to an inquiry from Sen. Charles Grassley, Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich writes that top officials had only recently learned about the ATF gun-running program, but that nothing improper was done in the operation. Weich also asserts that any allegation that the ATF knowingly allowed the sale of assault weapons to a straw purchaser who then transported them into Mexico is false. “ATF makes every effort to interdict weapons that have been purchased illegally and prevent their transportation to Mexico,” Weich wrote.
Whistleblowers then stepped forward to tell Congress that this was a lie. Holder tells Congress that he only recently had learned about the operation.
Issa then asked for a documents pertaining to the decision making on withdrawing that February 2011 letter.
And now Obama asserts executive privilege on these documents.
Come on…who can’t see this is a cover-up?
A few Senators can see it and are asking for Holder’s resignation:
The furor between the White House and Capitol Hill Republicans continued to rise in the upper chamber on Thursday as Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.), a leading front-runner for the GOP vice presidential ticket, and Sen. Dan Coats (R-Ind.) both called for Holder’s resignation.
“I think we’ve about reached the point of no return on this issue,” said Rubio at a Christian Science Monitor breakfast. “I think they’ve been given multiple opportunities to answer very legitimate questions that the Congress has.”
I’m thinking his resignation is the least that should happen. Being led away in handcuffs is what’s appropriate now.
See author page
It looks like karma will finally catch up to holder. Of course, not untill we take back Congress and the WH.
@Hard Right: The Karma needs to extend to 0-bama. They are hiding the truth and it’s time to make them come clean!!
I hope they do not let this drop even after the election, no matter the outcome. Someone at the top of the Obama administration is complicit being an accessory to murder. That is a serious crime deserving some serious time. The Governor of Illinois is or will be in prison, maybe we will see the first former President incarcerated.
I agree, Curt. Back when this first came out, a simple apology and resignation could have been accepted and done away with. And probably with very little damage to Obama, politically, as well.
Now though, with varying degrees of obstruction, flat-out lying, and defending the indefensible, the political damage is merely an afterthought. The entirety of this, so far, shows the willingness by Obama and his admin to engage in criminal enterprise to fundamentally “change” America. I realize that our liberal “friends” cannot see this. In one case, they are unwilling to do so and obfuscate continuously and purposefully in order not to do so.
I fully expect one of our liberal “friends” to display the “two wrongs make a right” defense of Obama here. At this point, it is almost all that they can do.
One of our liberal “friends” believes that this is a losing cause for the right. Almost as if the voters will only concentrate on one issue or another, without weighing them all against one another. This is stupid and naive, and especially so for someone quite a bit older than I am.
This is, quite simply, another example of Obama, and/or his admin, behaving in criminal fashion in order to expand and implement their ideology. Another “black” mark against him. In this case, though, I wholeheartedly agree that a simple resignation is out of line and that criminal charges and jail time are appropriate. And, what’s more, it’s quite possible that the expanse of this could go all the way to the top.
I’m thinking frog march.
Obama is only protecting holder because he is afraid this will hurt his re-election chances if it breaks open now. It’s still doing damage tho.
He’d rather have a flesh wound than a total decapitation.
Holder is the holder of the keys that will bring about Obama’s political demise.
Driving through Liberal States today and the Left is blaming Bush; remember, Wide Receiver used tracking devices on the weapons, notified the Mexican government of the operation, used agents and airplanes to track the weapons. Fast and Furious met none of these requirements; in fact, agents were told not to track the weapons.
When the drug cartels discovered the tracking devices, the operation was discontinued, in 2007. Liberal talk radio is disseminating talking points that contradict the facts and maintaining Obama has never introduced anti-gun legislation, so it is all a lie and a political ploy: there is a slight problem with the corpses that keep piling up on both sides of the border. A situation that won’t end for decades. Be armed with the truth when you encounter these mindless drones.
@Skookum, #7:
Obama hasn’t introduced anti-gun legislation. Issa’s investigation has become a political ploy. Meanwhile, the corpses do keep piling up.
68,000 guns originating in the U.S. did not find their way to Mexican drug gangs as a result of Fast and Furious. If you want to blame somebody for the mounting piles of corpses, blame the bat-shit-crazy NRA, that promotes the ridiculous notion that any new restrictions on gun sales are somehow a direct attack on 2nd Amendment rights. That idea is totally ludicrous.
Anyone who thinks this does not go to the very top, meaning Obama, is unaware of what actually happened. The U.S. government authorized the arming of a criminal element across an international border. This violated Mexican sovereignty. No low level operative did this. I suspect cooperation with the highest level with the Mexican government as they are not screaming about this violation of their space. All so they could facilitate gun control here in violation of the 2nd Amendment.
greg
1) How many of those were guns we sold to their military who in turn gave/sold it to drug cartels?
2) How many were the F&F guns?
3) It is over a 5 year period. 68000 seized over 5 years = 13,600 per year.
4) Were the firearms seized used in a crime?
5) The issue is that members of state and federal agencies/govt. essentially helped to smuggle guns into Mexico. We expect criminals to do so. Not federal and state authorities.
@Greg: I agree someone is batshit crazy, but it is not the NRA. Is there some part of the phrase “Shall not be infringed.” that needs further explaining? There are not ifs and or buts. No exceptions are listed in the bill of rights. Brian Terry was killed over 18 months ago and we still do not know who authorized the transfer of the guns found at the crime scene. If you are capable of any sort of intellectual honesty, ask yourself why.
@Zelsdorf Ragshaft III, #11:
There are unstated ifs, ands, and buts associated each and every Constitutional right that a citizen possesses, because of the simple fact that there isn’t only one citizen who must be taken into consideration. There is no absolute right to bear arms into a place where unrestricted exercise of that right would represent a clear and present danger to the safety of others. There’s no fundamental right to possess a private arsenal of fully automatic weapons. There’s no fundamental right to buy guns for the purpose of resale at a profit to criminal elements. The right to free speech stops short of granting citizens the right to commit libel.
In the real world, there are no rights that are absolute. To some degree, everything is conditional. Many on the right don’t even recognize a woman’s absolute right to sovereignty over her own body, and to fully control her own reproductive function.
And this is about the govt. allowing those to who did this to walk free in order to push more gun control.
Ya see greg, they comitted a crime by doing this. We want to see who knew and who authorized it.
@Greg:
You say there are NO absolute rights. As ususal, you are wrong. There are absolute rights.
The right to worship as we please, although some states have tried to outlaw the practice of worshipping with snakes.
The right to protect yourself, and your family, from threats of injury or death.
The right to create, and bear, children.
And your right to be stupid, a loser, a failure and to basically be a worthless individual.
To claim that rights are limited you must build into the equasion the interaction between two people, or more, at which time your rights end where mine begin. But this nation was not build on the “collective” right, but the rights of the individual, a philosophy that Socialists like you seem to not be able to tolerate.
You support the right of a woman to destroy another human being claiming that woman has “sovereignty” over her own body, ignoring that she also, as nature designed humans, is no longer a singular person.
Greg, one of your problems is who gets to decide what the ifs ands or buts are. You can own fully automatic weapons but you must pay a tax. By the way, do you know of any registered machine guns ever used in a crime? When you allow the government to define what falls outside the area of “Shall not be infringed” you defeat the idea of freedom. Maybe you should apply some restrictions on your freedom of speech and maybe practice it on a website where you are a better fit. Something with a Marxist flavor.
I missed that part. An umbilical cord does not make it part of her body. You get confused as to when life begins and who that life belongs to. Once life is conceived it is to be protected. You do not get is both ways. You cannot call drug use during pregnancy child endangerment and Greg. You have been drinking in the coolaid far to long. Perhapes a post natal abortion should be performed. Smith and Wesson sells a do it your self kit. Do you need help with the purchase price as I do not think Planned Parenthood will help?
I have watched all the arguments and all relevant and certainly precise and accurate!! Sadly poor Greg is so far gone and drunk on 0-bama Kool Aid that he is a wasted and hopeless cause. It is amazing the crap that comes out of his brain but BS still smells like BS and Greg is full of it!!
J.G. I’ll say again. As our leading law enforcement official, Holder should resign if lying about anything substantive.
Issa is absolutely politically motivated and the American voter will clearly see it
Your older “friend” believes Repubs. should stick to “it’s the economy stupid” if they want to get their Mass. moderate past BHO in Nov.
If the right simply wants to blast away at issues the average voter will discern as “politics as usual” you’ll end up very disgruntled losers.
Right CS. This is not about gun rights, it is about our government breaking its own laws allowing firearms sold, through coersion, by legal FFL holding gun dealers to people sent by ATF to make purchases they could not legally make and transfer those weapons to people, with our governmental approal, who transported them across the border to Mexico and into the hands of drug cartels. Unlike what was done during the Bush years, there was no effort to track the weapons. This was an attempt to cause a crisis. Hundreds of Mexicans and Brian Terry died because of this, and we cannot get the documents to indicate who authorized it. Who stopped it, and who decided to lie about it. Want to bet in ends in the oval office?
The NRA would probably support my right to carry a licensed Thompson gun to a town meeting. Except they would likely object to the unreasonable need for a license.
Two thousand advanced military weapons found their way into Mexico, as a result of Fast and Furious. Everyone knows there is considerable difference between civilian pea shooters and sophisticated modern military weapons. However, in the commission of murder, it makes no difference what weapon was used, if you provided the weapon, you are as guilty as the man who pulled the trigger. So far we have Terry and Zapata as victims of Holder and possibly Obama’s irresponsible actions. Do they deserve special dispensation for murder or should they be tried like one of us?
How many more deaths are we supposed to tolerate without knowing the truth?
Maybe Obama can invite the wives and parents of the victims to the White House for a beer so he smooth out the wrinkles and make things better.
Conditional Ethics is a Marxist fruit that allows for collateral damage like Agent Brian Terry to further the cause without personal remorse. It evolves into a lethal ‘king of the hill’ with the brutal strongman on top and his (or her) ruthless henchmen waiting below for the inevitable fall to come. The driving power is fear. Fear on the top and fear below, always fear.
@Zelsdorf Ragshaft III, #19:
What evidence is there that any authorizing document originated above the highest level of the ATF? And, if none did, how would anyone conclusively prove that no such document ever existed?
The executive privilege claim proves absolutely nothing, other than that the Obama administration isn’t going to volunteer to be put in that particular dilemma.
Hey, if exercising executive privilege is an indicator of guilt, what do we make of the Bush administration’s use of it 6 times? One of which, we might remember, involved an official cover-up of the circumstances of a good man’s untimely death.
@Greg:
Did someone fill that cavity you call a head with concrete? What evidence is there that any authorizing document originated above the highest level of the ATF? Golly, you really don’t know, do you? Try this:
the ATF answers directly to the DoJ. When the ATF wants a wire tap, they have to seek it from their higher authority, the DoJ. Wire tae requests to the very courts that approve wire tapping, were requested from the DoJ for the use in the program, Fast and Furious, and outlined, specifically, the tactics being used by the DoJ for F & F.
Really, Greg, you should stop trying to argue something you lack basic information on. It only confirms what we already know about you; that you are a clueless Obamabot who puts party over the death of, at least, two Americans citizens.
And if exercising executive privilege is an indication of guilt, what do we make of the fact that Bill Clinton invoked executive privilege 14 TIMES?
@retire05, #24:
Wiretaps?
Darrell Issa, June 5:
Fast forward 2 days, to June 7:
The guy is on a politically motivated fishing expedition. He’s looking for things he imagines may exist. The White House isn’t going to help him look.
Clinton attempted to use executive privilege in connection with another republican investigation, as I recall, that had to do with an incident of tremendous national importance that took place in the Oval Office. There was nothing political about that one either, of course.
Issa calls Obama admin. ‘the most corrupt government in history’
Hyperbole, anyone? Issa is a jackass.
OK Greg, we know Fast and furious program existed. The DOJ admits that much. Who authorized it? Who ordered it stopped and who decided to lie about it? Why would the President extend executive privledge to prevent finding out the answers to those questions? Over 7 thousand documents were turned over to the congress, who by the way, has the right of oversight. None of those documents answer those questions. Do you understand what accessory to murder is? I have to ask WTF is wrong with you. Is there no crime these people can commit you would hold them responsible for? Please infest some other place.
Ummmm greg, do you know how Issa got the documents? Mole.
http://www.humanevents.com/2012/06/07/fast-and-furious-house-oversight-has-a-mole-in-the-justice-department/
So he is telling the truth. He did not ask for them, but someone gave them to him. That’s what you get for trusting TPM muckraker. They have a bad track record when it comes to telling the truth.
Not about gun control?
http://spectator.org/archives/2012/06/18/fast-and-furious-breeds-contem
Holder caught lying to Congress
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/holder-claims-emails-using-words-fast-and-furious-don-t-refer-operation-fast-and
Issa is obtaining confidential internal records from contact somewhere inside the Department of Justice?
That’s illegal. And not a minor infraction. This guy and his entire investigation are going to self-destruct. Quite possibly taking a lot of republicans down with him. Romney has been wise to keep his distance.
@Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:
After watching greg’s posts over the years one thing becomes clear, he defends the dems 100% of the time. Not even rich or larry w. have that kind of track record. I’ve seen him say things that even he cannot possibly believe. I call him a propagandist, but that is much too kind. He is a liar who whole heartedly believes he is justified to do so to advance his cause. Here is a post that explains what drives people like him.
http://drsanity.blogspot.com/2012/05/decetion-delusion-denial-and-moral.html
@Greg:
Hahahahahahaha! Like you care what is legal, especially when the dems do it. Self-destruct? Keep dreaming greg. We’ll see how this goes if the GOP takes back Congress and the WH. Should that happen I predict holder will wind up in prison.
@Greg:
That statement is true. However, I don’t think that it is true for the same reason as you do. My rights stop at the infringement of another’s rights. You, though, and your liberal/progressive friends, believe that my rights stop at the point that you choose. And that point is most often based on feelings, rather than hard facts. In other words, just because you say that me practicing my rights infringe upon your rights, or the rights of others, does not make it so.
@Hard Right, #31:
Actually, this is almost funny. Issa claims he has wire tap authorizations and documents proving high level DOJ officials knew all about Fast and Furious. But the internal DOJ documents were obtained in an illegal manner, and he can’t really use them as evidence because revealing their contents would be a criminal act on his own part.
**Being led away in handcuffs is what’s appropriate now.**
Isn’t it customary to also use the phrase “frog-marched”? That seems to be the literary tradition, anyway. Regardless, there will be no handcuffing or frog-marching. Issa has mistimed this. It’s too close to the election to get this fought out in the courts.
Gracie, this isn’t about politics or the election. It’s about finding out the facts. Like I said, if the GOP takes back congress and the WH, the truth will see the light of day.
What’s almost funny is your sycophantic lying, greg.
No doubt. Voters would soon experience what is commonly called a rude awakening.
Transparent in Obama’ville is nothing to look at, it’s more like muddy water.
That’s clear, Skookum because it is apparent that Greg’s been drinking from that water. ; )
GREG
GREG’S MIND IS SCREWED UP, WE KNOW JUST BY READING HIS EXCUSES,
HE COME HERE WITH ALL KINDS, depending on the subject,
I think he is the brother of CARNEY,
(Joh 8:44) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Once again, another truth from Greg. However, and again, it won’t be true for the reason he and his compatriots believe it will be true.
No, the truth of that statement will become reality once, and IF, the GOP has the fortitude to delve publicly into the vast cesspool of un-Constitutional actions by Obama, the minefield of Harry Reid’s obstructionism, and the outright lying of the media to cover them both.
Greg and friends believe that “We the people” will experience all of their fears come to fruition. The problem with this is that their fears are based on a dreamworld of their own making that resembles not reality, but rather, pure fantasy. How do we know this? Because their fantasy world also believes in socialist, or, more accurately, statist, ideals that have never worked when applied to the real world.
Many of these liberal/progressives are the way they are due to good intentions. Greg and his kind, though, are, simply put, a morally corrupt people. How else do you explain their continued defense of criminality? Their equation of “two wrongs make a right” mentality? How else do you explain their need to constantly defend the indefensible?
People with a solid moral footing have no problem being critical of actions, words, or deeds by politicians, no matter what their party or political ideology is. For Greg and his buddies, though, even those actions, words, or deeds, that are so obviously wrong that children can recognize them as such, are defended with such voraciousness as to be astounding episodes of detachment from reality.
@Richard Wheeler:
There’s no doubt that is what you believe. You have iterated that statement, or similar, more than I care to count. Even so, just because you state it, does not make it so. Especially as it seems your grasp on reality is becoming ever more tenuous.
How completely devoid of reality must one be to decry the method and motivation of one who seeks to bring light onto the issue, while excusing the criminal actions of that person’s target of investigation? Will you continue to defend the indefensible with character assasination all the way to the end? Are you with Pelosi’s camp, that some vast right-wing conspiracy is at work here condemning an “innocent” man?
Careful how far to the left you travel, Rich. I hear the fall off the edge into utter lunacy is a big one.
J.G. ” Criminal actions of target of investigation” I’ve said if it can be proven Holder committed perjury he should step down. I believe the ATF agents who ran this “sting” (Apologies to Redford and Newman) should be subpoenaed and questioned ASAP. As H.R. suggests a true Cluster F—.
btw Who’s character have I assassinated. Issa? My neighboring Congressman from the district that spawned the John Birchers is as politically motivated as Pelosi. That’s politics not assassination. He’s a big boy. It’s a rough game.
FOX’s Bill O’Reilly is still claiming that is just a “conspiracy theory.” It would be nice if someone could send him the information that CBS has.
Ditto
hi,
if they where trying to pull a fast one on the second amendment to AMERICANS
BEFORE THE ELECTION, THEY SURE CANNOT NOW,
they will be on their guard from now on.
@Richard Wheeler:
Thank you for providing an excellent example of the intellectual dishonesty of the left, Rich.
In one comment you ask “who’s character did I assasinate” immediately before you go on to suggest a tangible relationship between Issa and the John Bircher Society, using the John Bircher Society as some kind of negative relationship. Do you not have a clue about what you just did, or have done in the past? You do it constantly, linking people or groups to certain other groups you have identified in the past as bad, or evil, who you then use from that point forward to deride other people or groups.
You do it with the TEA Party. You do it with anyone who even raises an eyebrow about Obama’s past, in particular his birthplace. You use military service, or the lack of it, to suggest that someone has less rights to discuss issues as you do. You use character assassination as a tool, Rich, when you refrain from answering another’s question, or questions, head on. You use it on many of those pols from the right for even simple questions about an action committed by the left. You never discuss issues head on. You hide from the direct confrontations on an issue by immediately injecting direct confrontation on those discussing it, investigating it, or just standing on the sidelines.
johngalt
hi,
I always am astonish to see how you come with a perfect way to paint a person
and right on the minute details,
bye
@ilovebeeswarzone:
You can read the CBS News Report here:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57338546-10391695/documents-atf-used-fast-and-furious-to-make-the-case-for-gun-regulations/?tag=re1.channel
And here:
http://newmediajournal.us/indx.php/item/5985
And here:
http://shtf411.com/cbs-documents-atf-used-quot-fast-and-furious-quot-to-make-the-case-for-stricter-gun-regulations-t18408.html
And here: http://hotair.com/archives/2011/12/07/new-e-mails-atf-officials-discussed-using-fast-furious-to-push-gun-control/
Here is the House Oversight Committee’s reports on the failure of ATF leadership to allow interdiction over the objections of field agents: http://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/ATF_Report.pdf
http://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/FINAL_FINAL.pdf
Let’s not forget this:
From The Hill“ATF’s Fast and Furious gun-tracking program prompts gun laws debate” By Jordy Yager –
In Forbes contributor Frank Miniter says:
Aye, terrific video, I am sending it to my email people.