By Sari Horwitz, Wednesday, April 11, 1:56 PM
Florida special prosecutor Angela Corey plans to announce as early as Wednesday afternoon that she is charging neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman in the shooting of Trayvon Martin, according to a law enforcement official close to the investigation.
It was not immediately clear what charge Zimmerman will face.
Martin, 17 and unarmed, was shot and killed Feb. 26 by Zimmerman, who said he was acting in self-defense. Police in Sanford, Fla., where the shooting took place, did not charge Zimmerman, citing the state’s “stand your ground” law.
Corey told reporters Tuesday night that she would hold a news conference about the case within 72 hours. A news release from her office said the event will be held in Sanford or Jacksonville, Fla.
Benjamin Crump, who is representing the Martin family, said earlier this week that Corey’s office had asked where Trayvon’s parents would be each day this week. They arrived Wednesday in Washington for a civil rights conference organized by the Rev. Al Sharpton, where they are scheduled to speak.
The announcement of a charge against Zimmerman would come a day after Zimmerman’s lawyers withdrew from the case, citing their inability to contact Zimmerman.
Lawyers Craig Sonner and Hal Uhrig Tuesday expressed concern about Zimmerman’s emotional and physical well-being, saying he has taken actions without consulting them. They also said they do not know where Zimmerman is.
“You can stop looking in Florida,” Uhrig told reporters. “Look much further away than that.”
Corey said Monday that she would not bring the case before a grand jury, which was expected to convene this week. She said her decision to forgo the grand jury should not be viewed as a factor in determining whether charges will be filed.
Corey has indicated in recent weeks that she might not need a grand jury to bring charges against Zimmerman.
The lawyers said they stand by their assertions that Zimmerman acted in self-defense when he killed the 17-year-old, who was unarmed, but they acknowledged that they formed their impressions without meeting Zimmerman.
© The Washington Post Company
An interesting addition to the events, but not unexpected either, Aye. Knowing what little I, and we in general, know of the events that happened that night, both persons had ample opportunity to change the course of events.
I don’t believe it was a case of “hunting down a black man like a dog” anymore than I believe Martin was engaged in nefarious behaviour. Unfortunately, the initial media reporting, and continued reporting, coupled with the race hustlers Sharpton and Jackson, escalated the story into something it was not. I was entirely expected that a pushback would happen against that narrative of the events, so much so that some have impugned Martin’s character in exactly the manner that Zimmerman’s was impugned by the media and the race hustlers.
And it isn’t over, either. Zimmerman, even when charged, is still innocent until proven guilty. And if the verdict is innocent, I expect nationwide riots and violence. Extreme? Possibly, but as we’ve seen here, and elsewhere, many have already convicted Zimmerman before the facts were out. I could be wrong on what happens. I hope that I am. I fear that I’m not.
Ah yes, the mob needs their blood.
Barabas! Barabas!
Does anyone think he would have been charged had the media not gotten involved in this issue? This is obviously a politically motivated charge. The jury is going to be under intense pressure to find Zimmerman guilty of whatever it is they decide to charge him with. There’s zero chance this man is going to get a fair trial. And, like johngalt says above, this can only lead to riots in the streets if he’s found innocent.
This will be a miscarriage of justice no matter how you look at it.
@Jason A Clark:
And no matter which way it ends up, whether a conviction happens or not. Any jury pool will be heavily tainted by the massive nationwide spotlight the media has given it, and prejudice, one way or the other, is likely to be the case.
It’s almost enough to make one weep for their country.
Innocent until PROVEN guilty!!
Obama’s mouthpiece had this:
Obama will make no further comments on the Trayvon Martin case.
“I certainly don’t think you’ll hear from him,” Carney said, noting that there is an “ongoing investigation” in the case.
Carney suggested the White House is now imposing a wall of silence on the matter. “He and I and others will refrain from commenting on it,” he said.
—->>>>Carney did not say that Obama had erred in addressing the case last month when the president suggested sympathy for Martin and remarked that if he had a son, he would look like him. The case was also under investigation then.
More:
The White House Dossier
Back when Obama said all the facts were not out yet so that we should wait, I agreed with him.
Now, the jury pool is so tainted that Zimmerman might be wise to allow a judge to sit in judgement rather than 12 so-called peers.
I sat on a 1st degree murder with special circumstances case once.
Over 1/2 of the potential jurors were eliminated for having too much information on the case and already reaching an opinion on guilt.
In Zimmerman’s case the coverage was not merely a local paper and radio and TV.
It was/is national all day, all night, in-your-face, opining and alleging.
A juror who claims he hasn’t heard of the principals – much less formed an opinion about it all – is just lying.
The cynic in me says that this indictment will serve to placate the excitables until after the summer tourism season.
Trial to begin sometime after Labor Day.
The Paper Of Record is not so sure:
“It was not clear whether the special prosecutor had decided to charge George Zimmerman in the shooting death. The news conference is set for 6 p.m.”
@The Strategic MC:
Looks like the NYTimes is walking a tightrope.
Oddly enough quite often the un-named source has been quite enough for that paper of record.
After all there is only an un-named source behind the idea of a charge:
Florida special prosecutor Angela Corey plans to announce as early as Wednesday afternoon that she is charging neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman in the shooting of Trayvon Martin, according to a law enforcement official close to the investigation.
It was not immediately clear what charge Zimmerman will face.
Some really cynical folks on-line have made crude jokes about the charge being of littering or of discharging a firearm in city limits.
I think there will be more to it than that.
We will find out soon enough.
I think that among these might be found the state legal authorities in Florida.
This was not planned by barry but as rahm says a crisis should not be wasted. Barry is using both trayvon and george to further his agenda Who would have thought the first black, well white black (george is white hispanic) president would be such a race baiter? I actually was naive to think educated and intelligent men and women would be beyond that in this day and age. Then again thinking about this barry is not only using this for his campaign but also using it to progress his marxist agenda. We have to get this man out of the WH come November. The freedoms we sometimes take for granted are in jeopardy and the sanctity of our Constitution is at stake.
@Disenchanted: I think they’re determining the order of race based on father-mother so Zimmerman is a white-hispanic because his father is white and his mother is hispanic. That would make Obama a black-white because of his father being black and his mother white.
I know it’s hard to keep up with the current racist terminology but we need to work hard to get it right so we aren’t viewed as racists ourselves (try to wrap your head around that enigma). My father says I’m okie-white because he’s from Oklahoma and my mother is white…not sure it’s catching on, though.
If the special prosecutor decides that SYG law is not applicable, then Zimmerman would be charged if there were sufficient evidence.
I believe a Lucianne poster nailed it in a few short words… “this is the way it’s supposed to work”.
Yes, it is. When there are deaths involved, and there is no denying that Zimmerman killed a teen.. whatever the circumstance… these things are not casually tossed off under most circumstances. Thus why you have the lib/progs, up in arms about the SYG laws to begin with. Therefore abuse of that law is something that should NOT be tolerated, or it invites federal intervention and oppressive legislation.
Manslaughter charges are far from uncommon after a death… whether it’s vehicular manslaughter, or other more benign instances. A Tacoma mom was charged with manslaughter a little over a week ago when her three year old was left unrestrained in the car, and her 22 yr old boyfriend (with a concealed carry) tucked his gun under the seat so he didn’t alarm people at the gas convenience market. The child found the gun and accidently killed himself.
The mother, grieving, now also has to bear the stress of the manslaughter and criminal neglect charges. This was hardly an on purpose event, but charges come nonetheless.
Then there’s the men who got into a bar fight, with one dying a week later from the injuries. Yesterday the survivor of the fight was charged with involuntary manslaughter. Yet they do not have the details that he was the one who actually started the fight that led to the death.
Also about a week ago in Pasadena, CA, a man called in a robbery to 911, and stated the intruders were armed. This gave the police a particular mindset about who they may be encountering and exercising needed caution. The police confronted one of the two – a 19 year old. When he reached in his waistband, the LEOs fired. He was unarmed.
It turns out that the robbery victim deliberately lied to 911 about their armed status merely to speed up the police response time. The two officers are now on paid administrative leave, and the county first wanted to file manslaughter charges against the 911 caller. A few days later, the Pasadena prosecutors decided not to file the charges.
In only these three such very recent examples, none of these people intended for it to culminate in a death. But the death did demand some examination of contributing factors to that death. I suspect that if that mother can manage to buck up and live thru the charges – most especially with her own emotions and regret for bad decisions – so can Zimmerman.
I could go on and on with more cases – filed on daily basis all over the country – but the point is the same I’ve always tried to make. If it’s not a clear case of SYG criteria for self defense – and this isn’t with all factors considered – the standard is that evidence is examined, and manslaughter charges are brought in order to determine the situation and degree of punishment… if any…. within our court system.
I echo the Lucianne commenter again… this is the way it’s supposed to work.
For all you Zimmerman worshippers, fear not. He may be charged, but he may also be acquitted. At that point, anyone still complaining about justice has lost any credibility because justice and due process was, indeed, done as our system dictates. But until that time, this is what the public outcry has been about. Not enough scrutiny and justice when SYG did not apply.
What might be most telling is if Corey comes in with voluntary, or involuntary manslaughter. The former would indicate she felt that Zimmerman may have been contributing as the aggressor.
@MataHarley:
Don’t kid yourself that this is what the public outcry has been about. The outcry hasn’t been about him not being charged yet. If that were the case they’d simply maintain composure and wait for the wheels of justice to turn until they were certain he wouldn’t be charged by any agency. No, the outcry has been for his head on a platter – facts of the case be darned. I don’t see any of the loudmouths out there screaming for everyone to wait for justice to be served. Instead, you’ve got people like Spike Lee (trying) to tweet Zimmerman’s home address in the hopes that the mob will enact revenge.
This may be the way it’s supposed to be, but I maintain that there can be no true justice in the environment that the media and the mob has created. What if Zimmerman is found “not guilty?” What do you think will happen then? Do you think the mob will accept the verdict in stunned silence and go on their merry way?
Nothing good will come of this. No lessons will be learned.
Oh my… more harsh than I thought. They are charging him with second degree murder, not any degree of manslaughter.
Maybe you are behind the times, or simply filling in blanks to suit you own beliefs, Jason. The first investigation was wrapped up, and no charges filed just over a week after the killing. Thus the public outcry.
Only following that dismay was a Florida special prosecutor appointed to have a second look at the original decision NOT to press charges, using SYG as the reason. In the interim, the feds opened a second investigation to determine if Zimmerman was guilty of a “hate crime”. That is unrelated to the Florida investigation, which was oversight on the original SYG decision.
Yes, something always good comes when our judicial system is allowed to work as it should. And the lesson learned is that anyone who feels they have not had justice can invoke oversight.
There is no true justice if the SYG law is abused, and being improperly applied. You are backwards.
As far as the prediction of national race riots, or whatever other Armageddon you may be envisioning, seems premature to go that direction. I consider that tactic little better than the hyperbole done by the New Black Panthers. It’s a bridge the nation crosses when we get there. During the trial, evidence will be presented, and a clearer picture of the evening’s events will come to light.
From a Jacksonville criminal law firm website on Florida’s second degree murder statute.
Apparently they are taking Zimmerman’s decision process, and his elongated hunt for Martin, into consideration.
Perhaps the most overtly political and obsequious announcement of an arrest that I have ever witnessed. Corey’s preamble was 10 times longer than the announcement and discussion of the charges.
Florida, as represented by Corey, acts as if it has skin in the game. Hmmm.
Any chance of a deliberate overcharge on this one? The burden of proof on Murder in the Second Degree being significantly higher than Manslaughter?
@MataHarley:
No argument with this.
I think that everyone wants to system to work. But, by the same token, most would prefer that the system not be subject to the whims of public sentiment or political pressure.
@MataHarley:
hmmm, [speculation] perhaps when the forensics came in they suggested that Zimmerman had gotten the better of Martin, threw Martin off and fired into Martin’s chest as Martin was on the ground.[/speculation] So far its seems that there was no surviving witness to the actual shooting other than Zimmerman and perhaps Zimmerman’s story didn’t match the forensics. We shall see.
I’m glad that Zimmerman called the Special Prosecutor and turned himself in. Let’s pray that a fair unbiased jury can found and empaneled. Hopefully Zimmerman has chosen competent new defense counsel.
@Jason A Clark:
One would hope that the decision of the jury would be accepted with equanimity, but there is the Rodney King precedent, isn’t there?
Prosecutors can’t hope to present a case based on public sentiment or political pressure. If they don’t have the evidence they think backs up the charges, they wouldn’t go that direction. And I’m actually really surprised they went for 2nd degree murder. Obviously, no grand jury, no 1st degree, but I really expected manslaughter.
And if it’s an “overcharge”, then it’s a slam dunk for Zimmerman’s acquittal. Read again what must be proved beyond all reasonable doubt in my comment #19:
Example of “depraved mind without regard for human life” from a FindLaw overview:
Hi Mata,
I can’t believe that they’d file a Murder 2 charge without documentation of stalking (which “could have been reasonably foreseen as endangering a human life,” given that Zimmerman was armed with a semi-automatic handgun). I’m wondering about Martin’s cell phone record. Was he on the phone until just before the altercation occurred? Is there a heretofore undisclosed witness?
I think that the Murder 2 charge indicates that the prosecutor believes she’s got a much stronger case than what’s been speculated about, based on the public domain records to date. This fits with the reports that an initial detective wanted to file charges.
I’ve quickly read through the various comments relating to this and I’m most impressed with the cautions that there may have been a lot of important evidence to which none of us are privy. Such cautions were certainly prescient.
I’m also thinking that Zimmerman benefited from the clumsy theatrics of Sharpton and enablers, in terms of public sympathy.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA
@MataHarley:
Thanks for the reference. All of the examples presented align with my previously held notions of Murder In The Second Degree.
Obviously lots of closely held evidence that conflicts with what many of us think that we know. Can’t wait to read the bill of particulars.
LOL! Well, Larry, drj’s written 10 “Zimmerman is God, and innocent” posts, of which I’ve only engaged in two of them. (trust me… it won’t do your heart good to read most of the comments…) I dashed in mostly to try and present the fact that all the assumptions vs timelines, and what we did know, were punching big holes in to what we knew (or actually don’t know or thought we knew) of Zimmerman’s version to the PD (as we understand it to be via media and second hand mouthpieces, of course).
The timeline runs approx to this.. without looking up the exact times/seconds:
1: Zimmerman calls in 7:09
2: While on the phone, Zimmerman movements/fast walking happen for 33 seconds. He then stops and finishes his phone call
2: Zimmerman is on the phone with the PD until 7:13:52 approx. It’s two minutes until he and Martin meet up, and he’s 33 seconds away from his truck.
3: Martin’s on the cell with his girlfriend’s incoming call from 7:12pm to 7:16pm when the fight starts. That’s documented by her cell records.
4: Police arrive by 7:17, and Martin is already dead.
This has been determined prior to this via the original Zimmerman call, the girl’s cell records, and the police call logs with documented times. There has always been the missing two minutes, which is where Zimmerman’s toughest defense comes into play. The only thing certain is that Zimmerman had two minutes in time before the fight/death to return 33 seconds to his car, and did not.
Also not helpful, the entire fight/death took place within 60 seconds or so. Seems a bit quick to consider your life in “imminent danger” from an unarmed teen. Additionally, for whatever injuries Zimmerman had, they were not life threatening. So I think the prosecutors have considered all of this when they decided to go for full bore on the charges.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
But the story moved on:
The Sanford PD Lead Investigator, Chris Serino, initially wanted to charge Zimmerman with Manslaughter, based on the fact that he didn’t believe Zimmerman’s story. He has since backed off of this and now says that his investigation turned up no reliable evidence that cast doubt on Zimmerman’s account – that he had acted in self-defense.
“The best evidence we have is the testimony of George Zimmerman, and he says the decedent was the primary aggressor in the whole event,” Serino told the Sentinel March 16. “Everything I have is adding up to what he says.”
Apparently, additional evidence has come to light.
@Mike O’Malley:
The new guy, Mark O’Mara, is well-regarded and media savvy, a virtue not to be overlooked in this case.
Wow, I didn’t know that. If he were talking to his girlfriend until right when the fight started, this sort of undermines the theory that Martin approached Zimmerman from behind to get the drop on him.
The biggest thing about this case that didn’t ring true to me was Martin allegedly saying “you are going to die tonight” to Zimmerman. That’s the sort of thing that a sociopath gang member might say to a victim who was hog timed and helpless, but it’s not something you’d say if you were unarmed and scuffling with someone, even if you had the upper hand. It’s the sort of thing to trigger a surge of adrenaline in your adversary and get him to start gouging out your eyes (or blow you away). It’s the sort of line which comes out of a Hollywood movie; I don’t think that people really say stuff like that when engaged in unarmed, hand to hand combat.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA
Larry, always keep in mind we’ve never read Zimmerman’s account verbally, nor read any affidavit of the events. All of this chit chat that everyone mentions – like the “you’re gonna die tonight” – as if it were truth, is second hand stuff that comes from fathers, brothers, etc.
There have also been accounts by Tracy Martin’s father, who says the police told them that Martin approached Zimmerman while in his car and asked why he was following him. Well, there was only two times that could happen… before Zimmerman called, or in that missing two minutes.
If the latter, Zimmerman would have been back at his car and the fight/death happened about 165′ away. So after saying he wasn’t following him, he’d have to again get out of his car and do exactly what he said he wasn’t doing… follow him to the site. I doubt that happened.
However if Martin did approach Zimmerman prior to the phone call, that may also not play well with the prosecutor’s view either.
But none of that is from Zimmerman’s mouth… just second hand mouthpieces.
What remains is none of us actually know what happened… and most especially in that two minutes when Zimmerman did not return to the car and continued to hunt for Martin. I think this is probably his worst decision for the evening, and may be where that “criminal act” for the second degree murder charge may lie. Again, that’s defined as “…a single event or series of related actions arising from and performed pursuant to a single design or purpose of committing the murder or creating the dangerous condition that led to the death.”
As far as assaulting Zimmerman, I’ve tried to point out many times that most people don’t plan an assault or fistfight while chatting up the gal pal. But when people are determined to consider Zimmerman the hero, and Martin the thug, no logic that calls that blind devotion into question will penetrate the thought processes.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
That does not necessarily ring untrue to me. The exchange between the two men as related by the girl friend on the phone indicates that Martin approached and confronted Zimmerman. Zimmerman responded to Martin with a question Martin probably chose to interpret as an affront. I expect that Martin entered into a rage in which such a threat was not a remote possibility. It may have been the final mistake Martin made, with Zimmerman mimicing his opponent’s behavior and putting Martin away with a bullet to the chest before Zimmerman had a moment to realize that he was perhaps no longer in mortal danger himself.
Hi Mike, Sorry that I seem to be behind the curve. I just looked it up (Google News searched) for the account of the girlfriend cell phone call. Forgive me if you guys have gone over this before.
Now, how that directly lead to “you are going to die tonight” in an altercation which lasted a total of about a minute — just doesn’t strike me as credible. Zimmerman may have been short, but he certainly doesn’t look like a wimp. What on earth gave Martin the certitude to think that he could take him, much less kill him? Is there a past record of either the man or the just turned 17 year old teenager being a confrontational bully?
Let’s say that Martin asked “why are you following me?” And Zimmerman ignores the question and asks “what are you doing here?” How does that lead, in one minute, to “you are going to die tonight?” Is that really something that a kid would say to a grown man, right after the kid’s been meandering around, talking to his girlfriend? But it does sound exactly like something a guy trying to support a self defense case for himself might say.
I obviously don’t know anything. This is just water cooler talk and I just felt like jumping in. Thanks for your indulgence.
– Larry W/HB
@The Strategic MC:
That’s good. I wouldn’t be surprised if O’Mara was recommended by Hanity.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Zimmerman’s judgment was compromised by empathy for Martin by the sight of the lifeless Martin after Zimmerman’s adrenaline surge drained away.
@MataHarley:
I have tried to stay away from this one. I just want all the facts to come out. But just for the record, if you’ve never been in a fight, 60 seconds is an eternity. Most people aren’t trained MMA fighters or professional boxers with years of conditioning. And you can kill someone with a punch, even if you don’t know how. One lucky shot to the sternum to send the heart into defib or a shot to the trachea and it’s over. If I had a gun and someone attacked me, I’d shoot ’em. It wouldn’t take 60 seconds, I’d do it in the first 5 seconds if I could.
I don’t know what happened with Martin and Zimmerman. If I were Zimmerman, I never would have left my vehicle. If I were Martin, I would have tried to evade and escape. There will be a trial now and we’ll see what the facts bring.
I’ve been a battered wife, Aqua. I’m well aware of those “eternities”, unfortunately. And I was very over matched in that endeavor.
Were Martin a trained MMA fighter or special forces, I’m sure that sense of imminent danger would take only seconds. Were Martin armed with a knife, and not engaged in a fist fight, I would also agree that fear would come over you quicker. That wasn’t the case. Nor were Zimmerman’s injuries life threatening.
I know you say you’d shoot quick, but somehow… reading your stuff here… I can’t imagine that if you got into a fist fight with someone, you’d just blow them away.
Hi Aqua,
I don’t find it at all credible that Martin would full bore “attack” Zimmerman, just out of the blue, right after getting off the phone with his girlfriend. There must have been some antecedent verbal sparring, then a push or shove, and then a scuffle. If you think that Zimmerman was justified in blowing Martin away, then Martin was equally justified in banging Zimmerman’s head against the concrete.
But at no point can I see Martin boasting “you are going to die tonight.” Is that the sort of thing that you’d say, unless you had the guy tied up and a loaded gun in your hand? It’s not something that you’d say in the first minute of a confrontation which began with “why are you following me?” and “what are you doing here?” And, if you are in full bore hand to hand fighting mode, where you are unarmed, you aren’t going to waste your breath on a taunt which would only incite your adversary to heightened violence against you.
At least that’s how I see it.
– Larry W/HB
@Aqua:
And most street fights are effectively over in half of that time. Once a dominant position is achieved by the larger and stronger combatant, it’s usually a done deal.
Unless, there’s an equalizer readily at hand…
@MataHarley:
Maybe not Mata, but I’m older now and I just don’t heal as fast as I once did. 🙂
I own a gun and I do carry it in my truck from time-to-time. Mostly if I have to go in the field to a bad area. I have never had to even pull it and I pray I never do. I think that those of us that carry guns and especially those of us with conceal carry permits have a huge responsibility to do everything in our power to not use our weapons. That is not being cowardly, it’s being responsible.
Yeah, this aging thing does nothing for the healing time. I’m with you, Aqua. And I fully agree that the one who is armed needs to be the more responsible individual in altercations. Most especially when you are dealing with a youth.
This will all boil down to who the aggressor was. Walking down the street no matter how suspicious you look, is not grounds for confrontation nor is following someone. Given the hype and such, the biggest issue may be the aftermath after a verdict is rendered.
I’ve been watching this situation for several weeks and there are several things that are really bothering me. First let me say that I want Mr. Zimmerman to receive justice, but his guilt or innocence does not effect or concern me. What bothered me first was the Medias engaging “ludicrous-speed” in their rush to judgment over a so-called miscarriage of justice for an incident that had occurred almost a month prior.
I grew even more concerned when we learned of Comcast/NBC’s altering of the 911 tapes to make Mr. Zimmerman appear overly concerned with Mr. Martins race. Then we learned that there were eye witnesses that seemed to corroborated Mr.Z’s account of what happened but even though the story was over a month old and all this was public record it wasn’t reported by the MSM until the internet brought it to light.
Next came Michael Miller’s Miami New Times blog which fraudulently claimed,“Armed Neo-Nazis Now Patrolling Sanford, Say They Are “Prepared” for Post-Trayvon Martin”. Then came the New Black Panther Parties dead or alive bounty and the inflammatory statements made by several politicians.
What really bothers me is this…I fear the power of the media and it seems as though racial tensions are purposely being inflamed by that same media. I don’t know that there is an agenda in place to do this but I do know that it has led to other crimes being committed because of this story that ARE racially motivated. I am specifically referring to the incidents in Toledo and Tulsa I am sure that there have been and will be more similar events. That does concern me…a media driven race war is the last thing any of us need. Y’all take care.
Ron Paul 2012
Hi Aqua (#32): I’ve been thinking off and on, over this statement of yours, below, for several hours now. It’s seriously disturbing, on several levels.
Perhaps you should have defined what you mean by “attacked.” You made the statement in the context of Zimmerman/Martin altercation.
Martin wasn’t armed. Zimmerman was. I think it’s safe to say that the “attack” didn’t consist of any more than an exchange of words, some shoving, and then some sort of combination of fist-a-cuffs and wrestling. You say that you’d shoot the other person in the first 5 seconds. What if you didn’t have a gun (e.g. Martin)? You are in a fight; you briefly get the opportunity — do you hit him in the head with a crowbar, if you find one within reach? Do you immediately gouge out an eye? Or do you bang his head against the pavement?
I haven’t been in a real fight since 9th grade, but my Dad’s been in a couple of fights as an older adult. I hate to think that someone with a concealed carry permit could have had carte blanche license to turn a garden variety verbal altercation/fistfight into a deadly weapon killing.
What are the limits to self defense in a fist fight?
If you are, in effect, carrying out a citizens interrogation, does this automatically give you the right to “execution by cop” if you find yourself in a fist fight which would never have happened, had it not been for your own incautious and incompetent actions?
I’m thinking that there are two possibilities, when you, as a community watch person, see someone who looks “suspicious.” Either that person has no intention of committing a crime and is where he is for legitimate and innocent purposes. In that case, you should leave the person alone. Alternatively, that person may be a true criminal, which means that there is a very good chance that he could be armed and dangerous, in which case you should call law enforcement and let them handle it, while staying way out of the way and not revealing your presence and intentions.
Obviously, whatever Zimmerman’s actions, they were not unobtrusive to Martin. Zimmerman’s actions were sufficiently overt to provoke a confrontation. Martin didn’t have a history of picking fights, nor did he have a history of pathological paranoia. It appears to me that Zimmerman was negligent, in that he took actions for which there were foreseeable violent consequences. If you really think that someone could be a dangerous criminal, do you allow that person to observe that you are overtly pursuing him, which is what clearly happened in this case?
But I come back to what are the limits to self defense in a fight? It reminds me of West Side Story. Two gangs. Fists against fists. Knives against knives. “Zip guns” against zip guns. Not zip guns against fists. In every garden variety fist fight, are you permitted to unholster a firearm in the first 5 seconds and blow your opponent away? If your opponent starts getting the upper hand, are you then permitted to blow him away? If he gets the upper hand with his fists, are you then allowed to grab a crow bar? Particularly if it was your own negligence which led to the fight in the first place?
I don’t think that I’ll ever again look at a bare hands brawl — in the real world or in Hollywood — in the same light. At least in the Old West, everyone was packing. Mutually assured destruction as a deterrent, at the level of the individual. But wait. We already have that and we see how well that works. 18th Street, El Rukens, Insane Gangsta Disciples, Blacc Gangsta Disciples, Aryan Brotherhood, Latin Kings.
When everyone is packing, everyone is packing. When only one is packing, the other one gets blown away. That’s why it’s a bad idea to instigate a confrontation and why it’s a good idea to leave law enforcement to law enforcement. Make your call and stay out of the way. Or be prepared to take responsibility for your own negligence and incompetence.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
That’s a very interesting comment, Larry.
You’re a doctor, correct?
But my point is about the medical aspect of being slugged and slammed into concrete.
Who knows what happened to Zimmerman’s thought process after being slugged in the face, knocked down then slammed into the pavement repeatedly?
Hi Nan (#41): You’ve had some very interesting life’s experiences. You pack a deadly weapon. Lethal quadriceps.
You miss my point about Zimmerman and Martin. According to Aqua’s reasoning, in the first 5 seconds of a fight, you have license to draw a firearm and blow away your opponent. So, 5 seconds into the fight, both Martin and Zimmerman had license to resort to deadly force. Martin, of course, didn’t have a firearm; so he (according to Zimmerman) started pounding his head into the pavement (or did Zimmerman just fall backwards, striking his head, in the course of the first few seconds of the shoving/fistfight/wrestling/brawling?). If Zimmerman has license to use his semi-automatic handgun, does Martin then not have equal license to use his hands and whatever else is available?
My question was simply this: when, in the course of a verbal spat/shoving incident/fistfight/brawl is it justifiable to reach for a gun (or a crowbar or the nearest available concrete?). If an argument and fistfight arose as a foreseeable consequence of your negligence and incompetence, should there no consequences to you if your negligent and incompetent actions lead to the death of another, at your hands, resulting from your escalation to the use of your deadly weapon?
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
Larry, you (and Aqua) make the mistake I was trying to bring to your (both of you) attention:
After you get hit in the head hard enough, rational thought becomes less likely.
I am in no way saying that’s a complete defense against suffering the consequences of one’s actions.
I am simply pointing out that one’s capacity to reason gets diminished by being punched in the head.
Diminished capacity has long been a viable legal defense against being punished for acting instinctively as opposed to rationally.
IIRC, fight or flight is NOT even a rational decision.
It is a result of endocrine and hormonal gushings that literally block out other more reasoned reactions.
The larger question: where does one go to rescue the law-abiding civil society that the media continues to viciously assault? The obvious economic remedies seem to be ineffective, probably because the motivation for the media’s crimes is not economic but ideological, nor are they funded by the profits of legitimate business activity.
Where? Whom?
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
First, I don’t think that’s safe to say at all. When I was younger, and a lot more stupid, if I saw someone following me, it would not have been out of character to double back on them and confront them. And I may very well have punched them.
I have been in many, many adult fights. I was in the Air Force and stationed in Okinawa. There are Marines everywhere. You either learn to fight, or put on a skirt and bring them drinks. I don’t have the legs for a skirt. I have trained in Tae Kwon Do, Judo, and Kenpo. And I was trained that if you are going to have to fight, hit first, hit fast, and hit hard. You do as much damage as you possibly can as fast as you can to ensure your opponent is no longer a threat.
The only garden variety fist fights I have ever seen were in grade school. I’ll take your last point first. If you instigated the fight, you have no business pulling a gun or even carrying a gun. If someone else threatens you, and especially if they hit you, you have every right to pull your weapon. It may very well end there, but if not, at least here in Georgia, you have the right to shoot.
I thought that George Zimmerman sould have been charged with manslaughter the night of the incident, as some reports that the lead detective in the case had requested. I think 2nd degree murder is a bit of a stretch. I put the odds of conviction, if a fair jury can be found, at 30-70 for 2nd degree murder and 80-20 for manslaughter. If manslaughter charges are not included in the arrainment, to be held later today, I think Zimmerman will walk.
So much idle speculation. Don’t people get enough of the subject on the news? Or do they watch the news? (Other than FOX, I mean.) Get ready for O.J. Simpson II.
Hi Aqua,
You say:
You also say:
I continue to have a real problem with this. It isn’t alleged that Martin came up and simply cold cocked Zimmerman and it’s highly implausible that he did this. What has been alleged is that the altercation began with the just-turned 17 year old saying “why are you following me?” and the community watchman saying “what are you doing here?” Beyond that, we have only our imagination, but I think that a whole lot of fights get started like this (with words) and then someone shoves or pushes, the other pushes back, and then you have a fight. Perhaps you own fighting experience includes episodes such as this.
Who, then, is the “instigator?” Is it always that clear cut? You said that you could imagine yourself doing something similar to what Martin is alleged to have done (“double back and confront,” followed even by a punch). Do you think that it would have been justifiable for the person for whom you doubled back and confronted to grab a crowbar and smash in your head or draw a semi-automatic handgun and drill you in the heart?
To address Nan’s point (about diminished capacity from either striking one’s head or being caught up in a mind-altering rush of adrenaline), that’s precisely why Zimmerman wasn’t charged with Murder 1. He didn’t go into the confrontation with the premeditated intent to kill Martin. But actions have consequences and confer responsibility for unplanned adverse outcomes. An 18 year old who’s simply serving as a lookout in a convenience store heist can get charged with Murder 1, if his buddy panics and drills the cashier. Mata gave other examples on another thread. In this case, I believe that Zimmerman’s actions were both negligent and incompetent, as described in #40. And then things went sour and resulted in a death. Under Florida law, this constellation of events evidently allows for a Murder 2 charge, despite Zimmerman’s non-intent to kill Martin until he either felt himself to be in mortal danger or until his judgement became impaired by either the rush of adrenaline and/or a blow to the head.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach CA
I have consistently held the position that the process must run its course and if warranted action will be taken. I remain committed to this position. The only caveat I would add is that at this time GZ is innocent and it is up to those brining the charges to prove his guilt. In addition there is a belief that enough data exists to bring the charge. I hope for justice whatever that is determined to be and also hope that the verdict will be respected by all.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
I didn’t say that’s what happened. Martin confronted Zimmerman, what happened after that is the rest of the story. Both parties made mistakes. Zimmerman got out of his vehicle and Martin confronted Zimmerman. And I’m 99% sure that every fight I have been in started with words. I’ve never been a fan of the whole pushing thing though. If someone pushes me, I just hit them. 🙂
Technically, we don’t even know that, Aqua. Just because, from the girlfriend’s account, Martin spoke first, doesn’t guarantee he confronted Zimmerman. For all we know, Zimmerman could have spotted Martin and moved towards him, triggering the question.
@Aqua:
Hey Aqua, I was one of those jarheads back in 84 &86, I loved going to Kadena for 1 reason and it wasn’t whisper alley, it was seeing and hearing the habbo take off on it’s way to 100k feet and 2400+ knots, WHATA SIGHT!
@Poppa_T:
Whisper alley…lol. Haven’t heard that name in years. I was stationed in Okinawa in 89-90. Hanson and Courtney
You ever drive that around town? I’ll keep an eye out.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim: Funny you should mention that. Some friends and I were on Main Street last Saturday night and I was mentioning how I need to get the girl started up and moved closer to HB so I can drive it on a Sat night. Its in a inside warehouse in Corona at the moment. Gotta get the transmission fixed before I move it and then find a storage unit in Westminster or something. Can’t move it to my house because it would rust out in a few years.