The Obama administration is cheering on Donald Trump as he considers a presidential run. “I saw Donald Trump kind of rising in the polls,” noted David Plouffe, a senior White House adviser, on ABC’s This Week. “Given his behavior, and the spectacle of the last couple of weeks, I hope he keeps on rising.”
Trump’s rising profile, Plouffe argued, is becoming a problem for Republicans, especially as the high-profile businessman investigates the president’s birth records. “There is zero chance that Donald Trump would ever be hired by the American people to do this job,” he said. “There may be a small part of the country that believes these things, but mainstream Americans think it’s a sideshow.”
I’ve been waiting for a top tier GOP candidate to jump on the birther train. Trump was dumb enough to do it.
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/42519951/ns/politics-more_politics/
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
Trump? A “top tier GOP candidate”? Get serious….
You know Larry, if all there was is a certificate of live birth, that is insufficient to get a passport. If there is no issue, why isn’t the actual birth certificate revealed? Maybe it has something to do with the religion indicated on the document.
openid.ayol.com/runnswim, hi, I wonder why does he hide anything about his past,
that has never happen before, why did he spend millions to hide it, that is in itself illegal.
the AMERICANS always knew about the legitimacy of the PRESIDENT,
why did he has to change the rules of AMERICA’S LAWS OF THE LAND which has carried all the previous PRESIDENT. DON’T you find it suspicious
why not show the real paper to the PEOPLE, as he is suppose to do
@MataHarley: Same page Mata….top tier candidate, really? What the hell do they feed you lefties at HuffPo? Unbelievable.
I am not sure where I read it, but some people think that the reason Trump is doing this is to draw the attention of the media to issues thay want to ignore. Also, other canidates are not able to use the same strategies without losing credability. I do not think Trump can lose credibility with any public thing he says or does.
@Randy:
At first, I thought Obama just used this to tweak the opposition; however, I think this is the key. He is probably listed as a Muslim on his birth certificate (assuming that is listed on a birth certificate?).
I hate to correct FA icons Curt and Mata, but Trump is our guy….like him or not. Give it a month after he announces, and he will be the clear front-runner; a position which he will not give up.
I wouldn’t consider it “correcting”, Gary. Just a difference of opinion. I take no offense at your opinion, nor do I consider it in the least bit acccurate. You speak for yourself, not conservatives everywhere. So he isn’t “our guy”, but “your guy”.
Perhaps you’re too young to remember when another business icon, Ross Perot, was around to play this same game. He wasn’t nearly as colorful or entertaining as Mr. Comb Over, mind you. But the appeal was the same… someone business savvy to straighten out the top heavy, poorly run business of the federal government.
Establishment GOP would never back him willingly. If Trump actually got the nomination, I’d be highly surprised. Granted anything could happen in these times, but that one is darned far fetched. Were it to happen, it would be a statement that echoes James Raider on his post… a sad state of affairs.
There’s nothing consistent about Trump and his politics. I trust his business sense, as it relates to his own fiscal health. But I don’t buy into his words. He’s a master at grabbing headlines, in case you haven’t noticed. Rosie O’Donnell, etal. With TV business ventures under his belt, it’s good for him to play the media with the outrageous. His past has more political targets drawn on them than both Teflon Bill Clinton and Palin combined.
He has his place in this political sideshow… gets away with bringing up issues that cautious politicians cannot. But I daresay even he doesn’t think he’d get the nomination. But you’ll know if it’s a media game, or serious, if or when he throws substantial amounts (not what would be chump change to him…) of his own money at his campaign. He can well afford to buy the Oval Office.
I will take the guy, but purely for his act(s) of shedding light on those issues surrounding Obama deemed ‘untouchable’ by the truly serious candidates. The more he does so, the more we can really find out.
As for the serious candidates, I have crossed Romney off of any list of support I would give. To me, he seems more like an Obama-lite type candidate, when what we really need is a hardcore conservative. I don’t want the person who looks at the polls, puts the finger in the wind, and then makes a move or decision. It’s not about the ‘feeling’ of the public. It’s about doing what is right for the country.
@MataHarley: You must admit that he is fun! Every time I get a call from the NRC for donations, I tell them I contribute only to individual campaignes. I also let them know that when the NRC proposes canidates that I do not have to hold my nose when I vote for them, then they can get my money!
@mata: You chided me for labeling Trump a “top tier” candidate. I did this based on the most recent polling.
But I’m curious: whom would you label as being the “top tier” candidates?
Your response with the Ross Perot analogy was good, but Ross ran as an independent. I can see Trump doing serious damage in GOP closed primaries. I can even see the potential for mischief in the open primaries — Dems and liberal independents voting for Trump. The majority of registered GOPers subscribe to the birther theory. Trump may be crazy like a fox in being the first candidate to bring this up and for bringing it up so prominently. Even though he’ll be proven wrong, he’s established his bona fides with the most important GOP constituency.
Trump would have no chance in the general election. But I think it’s possible that he could have some success in the primaries.
By the way —>
http://www.salon.com/news/politics/birthers/?story=/politics/war_room/2011/04/11/trump_palin_two_million_birther
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
I don’t agree with that statement. I would say that most of them simply want the truth of the situation. Regardless of the posting you’ve given us, on the subject of his birth, most of us can, and are required, to provide official birth records. The fact that he did not for the longest time, and then only a simple “certificate of live birth”(not official, and not accepted for many governmental functions), has fueled the discussion. Some claim he wasn’t born in Hawaii, but not all. Some claim there must be items of significance within it, such as religion, but not all. Some claim that his stated parentage differs from the official records, but not all. A simple revealing of the official record would put to rest any discussion on the topic, except for the truly wild conspiracies of fraud within the Hawaiian government to forge a false record.
If he has been truthful in all respects about his birth, and is simply using this as a political ploy to keep attention on this, rather than other aspects of his life, then it is in poor taste. A truly forthright individual would reveal the official record. McCain has done so. Why not Obama?
@John: If you read the story I linked (in comment #1), it states that the person in charge of the records was specifically asked by Hawaii’s then GOP governor to look up the birth record. This was found, in a bound volume, as described. The issue of the “long form” vs “short form” birth certificate was addressed. The original “long form” was in a bound volume. Obama was given the exact same type of birth certificate given to any other Hawaii resident who’d request a birth certificate (the “short form”) and this is what was released. As the Hawaii state official noted, it would have to be a massive conspiracy between Obama, the records official, and the (then) GOP governor of Hawaii, who was a McCain supporter and therefore would have no motive for participating in a fraudulent cover up.
I personally think that Obama is probably not unhappy to have the controversy simmer a little — no telling when a political opponent might not try to push it too far, e.g. as Trump seems to be doing.
Here’s a reference for the majority of the GOP being birthers:
http://publicpolicypolling.blogspot.com/2011/02/romney-and-birthers.html
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
@Larry, Trump’s a 3rd rate Ron Paul. He hated Bush, praised and admired Hillary in the POTUS run. Wasn’t unkind to Obama either… admired him for coming out of nowhere.
He thought Hillary’care was a good idea. Told Joy Behar that he didn’t necessarily disagree that raising taxes on the wealthy was a bad idea… just that raising taxes now wasn’t bright.
He changes political party registration like others change their neckties.
So far, he sounds like he’d be a top tier candidate for you, eh? LOL
Was anti-Iraq. Would get us out of Afghanistan and leave that to fate. He’s such a nitwit on foreign policy that he thinks if he withholds money from Pakistan, they’d drop Bin Laden on the WH steps. Wonders why no one has “thought of that”….. uh, probably because even the most novice students of Muslim relationships and Islamic countries knows that wouldn’t work. duh
His beef with Libya is that it’s not being paid for by the Arab League or China… not that meddling in ME civil wars is simply not a good idea. If fact he said as despots go, Gaddafi treated his people relatively well. ??? Gaddafi was indeed a reluctant US ally, but that’s overstating reality.
His approach to foreign policy is based on cash, not an understanding of the enemy in the global Islamic jihad movements, or how so called “apostate” Muslim regimes – who are partners with the US in intel – are forced to interact with the jihad elements in their midst for their survival. The world, according to Trump, works only in his personal financial world. He demonstrates little incentive to learn outside that.
In fact, when it comes to Ron Paul and Trump, there’s not much difference save that Ron Paul’s got more political foreign policy savvy… not that I agree with Paul’s foreign policy. Interestingly enough, in OpenSecrets data on Trump, there’s plenty of Hillary, Chuckie Schumer, Charlie Rangel and Patrick Kennedy support, and also for McCain and Giuliana. He’s an fiscal opportunist donor, as most corporations are. They need bridges to whomever holds power.
But never once has he donated to Ron Paul – his political twin (so he portrays himself…) in so many ways – since the 2006 election cycles. Why? Because Ron Paul was never in the position to either benefit him, or be a detriment to him.
Obviously, political philosphy is not high in import when it comes to doling out Trump change.
He’s stated that he really doesn’t want to run for POTUS, which indicates to me that his ego demands that conservatives beg him to run. Yet were he really of that political frame of mind, he’d throw himself and his considerable cash behind Ron Paul, and let the more experienced version of himself go for the gold.
I don’t know what Trump is up to. But I’ve pondered the possibilities there could be some deliberate subterfuge… attempts to discredit both establishment GOP (by intense focus on the birther issue) and Obama, too. This so he could perhaps end up with his more palatable choice of Hillary as a Dem nominee in 2012. She, like him, probably wouldn’t do it unless the base begged for it based on her latest statements.
The other possibility is that it’s simply he likes sheeeet stirring in the spotlight, as he’s done so many times before for other reasons… beneficial press.
That’s okay… he can well afford to do that sheeeet stirring because he *isn’t* top tier. He’s just a joke. But I have to say, it’s pathetic that so many conservatives listen to “just words”, and haven’t done their homework on Trump’s political stand on other issues even in the past decade or so. Otherwise they’d know there is very little they share, other than a few fiscal issues, with this man.
He complains that the US is no longer respected (under Bush or Obama), but the US has never been loved or respected… just feared. Says he gets tired of hearing his Euro friends run down America. Hardly a reason to run for POTUS.
I suggest that were Trump the leader of the freeworld, we would not only continue to not be respected, we would be even more a laughingstock than we are under this joke of a CiC.
As far as “top tier” in the conservative world, no clue what that means in my own scope of the field. West is too new. Like what I hear from Herman Cain. Don’t like any of the old recycled has beens from the past. Romney and Huckabee are both a definite turn off. Don’t like Newt either, tho I think he’d make a stellar campaign honcho and good cabinet member.
No particular opinions on Palin. I think she’d do a good job and pick effective advisors, but don’t think the media would allow a clean election. We’d just go thru a year of more made up scandals. Presidential campaigns are already intolerably long and dirty enough without having that crap in our faces daily. Particularly dirty since both sides would be slinging their respective mud, and real issues would get waylaid.
Michele Bachman has been making inroads, but I’m not sure she’s ready for prime time in the WH. But she’d certainly be superior to Obama or Trump. For her, much will depend on how well she does in the next year. But then, if she’s on the road, perpetually campaigning… like Obama did 100 some odd days after hitting the beltway… it’s going to be hard to tell. She does have a respectable conservative idealogy, plus the convictions to stand firm to those. These are good traits, even if she doesn’t have a vast amount of charisma.
That said, I’d vote for a piece of driftwood over Obama. Nothing “top tier” in left field either.
@Randy, don’t disagree in the least. While I can’t take Trump seriously, and do have my questions about his motives being pure, he’s one entertaining SOB. And if there’s one thing we need in politics, it’s something, and someone, to laugh at.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim: A certificate of live birth is not an acceptable document to obtain a US Passport. I know, I didn’t know the difference when I first applied a long time ago. I also know that if Obama was in the US military, he would not qualify for a TS clearance.
@mata (#15): interesting read. thanks for answering my Q.
Flaws in the Salon spin, Larry… they only speak of Perkins Coie and one birther lawsuit with the infamous Orly Taitz. I can’t remember how many total went thru the courts… and all were contested by Obama’s various attorney firms – and frankly don’t care. But I know Alan Keyes kept his going on quite a while. Philip Berg… another huge name in the birther lawsuits… even sued Orly Taitz as they were blaming each other for thwarting discover and investigations in their shared end goal endeavors.
Therefore Salon’s avow that the figured quoted is a lie is vague and unsubstantiated at best. It can only be possibly true when considering that single lawsuit, and the liberal agenda firm, Perkins Coie.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
I read the story you linked, Larry, however, some pol saying it isn’t so isn’t the same as actually producing the official document to quell all doubt, is it? McCain did so, why not Obama? The issue isn’t just about whether or not he was born in the U.S. It is also about whether or not his official birth record shows something that he’d rather not have known. His entire life, prior to Chicago, is almost a complete mystery. We know nothing of his college records, either grades or classes taken, yet Bush’s was known months and months prior to his election in 2000. The sheer emptiness of knowledge surrounding his life is disconcerting to some, and by being as evasive as he is on the issue of his birth, is fueling all sorts of discussions on his life.
As for your reference to the majority of GOPers being birthers, I find it quite hilarious, especially considering the left’s assertion that McCain was not born in the U.S., and not an American citizen. As I discussed above, the question on his birth revolves around several issues, not just the location, and I suspect the questioning led to encompassing many who did not question the place of his birth, but rather something like his parentage, for example, to be included in the group termed “birthers”.
@John: Thanks for explaining your viewpoint on this. As far as birth certificates showing “religion;” well, his father was supposed to be a fallen-away Muslim — that’s pretty well known. And his mother wasn’t religious. I don’t personally think that any newborn baby has a religion; so I don’t know that this is very meaningful, although it obviously would be exploited to Obama’s disadvantage, by some, if the word “Muslim” (or “Moslem”) appeared on the birth certificate. As far as the “long form” goes, and McCain vs Obama, well, I don’t think you can compare the ruckus made about Obama’s birth to that about McCain and the Canal Zone. McCain’s US citizenship was never in doubt and never an issue with all but the most radical of leftist lunatics. It certainly wasn’t an “assertion” of “the left,” to anywhere near the level to which it’s been “asserted” by the right. And I don’t know about the relative policies of Arizona vs Hawaii. The Hawaiian official said that Obama got (with his copy of the certificate) exactly what any other citizen of Hawaii would get, were said citizens to request a birth certificate copy. Presumably they do, indeed, suffice for purposes of obtaining a passport, as Hawaiians presumably do travel to foreign lands.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
OBAMA WOULD HAVE BEEN OKAY TO KEEP HIS BIRTH CERTIFICAT HIDDEN if he would have seek for any job or would he?
but to become a PRESIDENT OF A SUPERPOWER LIKE THERE IS NONE OTHER LIKE AMERICA,
the people on both sides of politics party are absolutly right to have push further for unequivical proof
of him being what ever has been suspected by his own self behavior and written words,and
speech outside of this COUNTRY PUTTING HIM IN LINE WITH MUSLIMS, WOULD HAVE NEVER GOT HIM ELECTED
Well, either you have an interesting, and heretofore undisclosed, criteria for “the most radical of leftist lunatics”, or you’ve been out of the news loop, Larry. A July 2008 NYTs article begins it’s report about the ruckus over McCain’s birth, and the lawsuits, with this sentence:
For some reason, those doing “detailed examinations” don’t seem to be what any of us would guess you’d call “radical leftists” since they were people like U of AZ’s Prof. Gabriel J. Chin (an admitted Dem, but said it wasn’t “political”). Or maybe it wasn’t that radical leftist, Laurence H. Tribe, a law professor at Harvard and an adviser to Senator Barack Obama, who did the same?
If fact, that non-ruckus you refer to that was done only by the leftist fringe (like advisors to Obama and university professors.. heh) was such an uproar that the Dem controlled Senate ended up doing a nonbinding resolution declaring that McCain was, indeed, eligible to be POTUS.
The difference between the two is notable. There were records for McCain that could… and were… examined. In the case of Mr. Transparent… not so much.
MATA hi, that could have been a perfect way to cover OBAMA bye doing it to MR MC CAIN and making the big fuss over it, so to let OBAMA their guy escape the scrutiny until too late.
Mata, you can’t possibly compare the “ruckus” over McCain to that over Obama, eligibility to be President-wise. It’s orders of magnitude. The issue was discussed on a largely academic level, by a handful of people. The constitutional question. As soon as the issue was raised, it was promptly addressed and promptly put to bed, by the Dem controlled Senate, as you yourself point out. I didn’t see anyone on the GOP side sponsoring a similar resolution regarding Obama.
As far as transparency, asked and answered. He was asked to produce the birth certificate. He produced the birth certificate he was provided by the State of Hawaii. The exact same certificate as provided to any other Hawaiian citizen.
The state officials back him up on this.
What on earth is the controversy? That the State of Hawaii ought to revise its birth record policies to satisfy Sarah Palin and Donald Trump?
It’s ridiculous — just as stated by the Hawaiian official quoted in the story I linked.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
Larry, only one in pure denial status can claim that Congress would do a nonbinding resolution over a “non ruckus” and “purely academic” scrutiny….
The reason Congress is not rushing to the aid of the current POTUS is because he does not open the records to scrutiny, as McCain did. And you’ll notice that the very same Dem Congress did not do the same for Obama. I would take that to mean the risk of not having enough to examine was too great for them to put themselves out on a limb.
Butterzillion mentioned that the certificat produce was not the same, because of a appearance around the side was not there when he rechecked,
and SARAH PALIN mentioned that need of proving his birth once on the end of the campain’s speeches she made and also mentionned other things like ayers relation and the preacher buddy of him,
she must have been stop by MR MCCAIN, which maybe didn’t want to resort to trashing for winning,even if it was true
because she left the subject out for good. I am just assuming that last line of MCCAIN,
BECAUSE HE HAD A LOT OF CLASS,
Bees To let you know I found something we agree on “McCain had/has a lot of class”
rich wheeler, I knew someday I would find something that we would agree on,
bye
@mata: What records are there for Obama to “open up?” He doesn’t have possession of the bound volume of birth records which the Hawaiian state official says contains his original birth certificate, signed by the doctor who did the delivery. He’s got the official birth certificate copy which is provided under the policies of the State of Hawaii to every citizen who requests such and which ostensibly suffices for passports, etc. So how is it that you assert that McCain “opened up,” and Obama didn’t? And you can’t seriously claim that the ruckus over McCain was 1% that of the ruckus over Obama. Maybe I’ll do a lexus nexus search to see how many hits I get on McCain citizenship vs Obama citizenship, prior to November 2008, just to keep it high brow. I did it on Google — entering “Obama citizenship” and “McCain citizenship.” The score was 579,000 vs 7,300 (i.e. nearly 100 to 1). I don’t know of any way to limit Google searches as to range of dates, as I can for Lexus Nexus. Maybe you know how this would be done on Google.
But I’m curious; what precisely do you propose that Obama should do, birth certificate-wise, that he hasn’t already done? Like he’s supposed to order the State of Hawaii to show the bound volume of birth records to Trump’s private investigators? Exactly what would you have him do?
Follow-up: O.K. As promised I did a Lexus Nexus search on “Obama citizenship” and “McCain citizenship,” with the terms appearing only in the story headline or lead, restricting the retrieval to pre-November 4, 2008. Lexus Nexus only shows the original stories (not the myriad copies, quotations, editorials, paraphrases, etc.). Lexus Nexus doesn’t index blogs like this, only “proper” publications. Anyway the score was 36 major stories for Obama citizenship and 18 major stories for McCain citizenship, which, although “favoring” Obama birthers over McCain birthers, wasn’t nearly so one-sided as I would have thought. So I’ll give you guys partial credit for bringing up what might be viewed as a double standard of complaining about Obama’s birthers, while giving a free pass to McCain’s birthers.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
Larry, I’m going to guess you aren’t the legal geek like me, who reads law briefs for entertainment and education in her spare time. This is obvious by your simplification of the “what records are there for Obama to ‘open up'” statement.
Nor will I attempt to summarize some of the better laid out cases of the challenges to Obama’s birth certificate. (Keyes, Kerchner and Berg, to name three). If you have the least bit of curiousity, over partisan talking points, I suggest you go check them out. Life in the legal world of Obama’s past is not the left/right, black/white, right/wrong simplicity you choose to believe.
What I will say is there are many conflicting documents and events in Obama’s life that are brought up with considerable evidentiary support that is never addressed in the courts. Why? Because, to my knowledge, not one court has examined.. and indeed, deliberately refuses to examine… the evidence and arguments.
These cases are moving up in the court docket food chain because the judges are taking the politically easy way out…. they are simply stating that those who brought the lawsuits have “no standing”, and the plaintiff appeals that ruling. Has nothing to do with if Obama was, or was not, born in Hawaii. As of last June, the Kerchner case was scheduled to come up… at some point… before the 3rd Circuit appellate courts for standing……. snore…zzzz.. while waiting. Watching a golf game on TV is like watching hockey compared to waiting for our justice system to perform. Even the Heller gun case took over eight years just to get to SCOTUS, let alone get an opinion.
But what a dodge. Here’s the ugly truth. Justices at these levels don’t want to be anywhere near making a decision based on evidence, and find themselves overturned by higher courts. This is the “legal kicking the can down the road” argument… no standing. Happens quite often, actually, when they are playing dodge ball.
This is why this costs Obama a beaucoup via the plethora of lawsuits. And frankly, with all the lawsuits out there, I’d say that $2 million was a very conservative number, and far from being the final tally. And if the plaintiffs get a high enough court to at least grant them standing, they start over to actually argue the case on it’s merits get into the meat of the evidence. So you can then double the attorney fees….
However this is a game of time that Obama knows very well he can play. They can drag first the “standing” argument out for years, then they go back and start arguing thru the appellate system if plaintiffs are granted the standing. By the time it reaches SCOTUS, Obama has served his two terms, and is probably living abroad. If he is found not to be a citizen at that time, he only needs the pardon of the sitting POTUS to escape all culpability and penalties. That small circle of bipartisan powerhouses – only 45 in our American history – bond together over party lines always.
On the flip side, he can get really lucky and none of the evidence will ever get examined because no one will grant a US citizen standing to challenge a POTUS eligibility. Odd concept in itself, eh? A citizen has no standing in presidential eligibility?
The length of time of the process is why I simply don’t bother with the birther argument. It’s a waste of time and energy, and will never be resolved in a timeframe that is applicable to terms service. The only thing that can be done immediately is what really should always have been done… any candidate should have to go thru a legal vetting for eligibility for the highest office in this country. But nooooo… we assume political partisans have done their Constitutional duty. That is not a good idea, leaving it to the political parties to vet the candidates for Constitutional eligibility. I would support a Constitutional amendment that demands all presidential candidates’s eligibility are examined by the court system prior to their ability to enter the race. It is nothing more than enforcement/interpretation of existing Constitutional law.
That’ll happen right about the time the Easter bunny shows up at my door…
While Obama knows he can drag this out far beyond his reign of power, it has it’s use as a convenient political football to demean any non believer, as you so aptly demonstrate.
Me personally? I don’t know. I’ve read enough to know he could have been born elsewhere with the conflicting evidence. He also could have been born here. I remain open on that unless I had higher court opinions and transcripts of arguments and defenses to draw on. But I pick my battles carefully. There’s no sense in my signing on to a war that will be over by the time I get the ammo and firearms delivered to engage in combat, right? It’s a dead point save for one purpose only – to politically demean anyone who dares to question the evidence that even a court refuses to examine by it’s political sidling. It is for this reason that I believe Obama does nothing. Despite his status, which could not be determined for quite some time, he has the benefit of mockery. And he has people like you who love to shoot those arrows for him.
As far as I’m concerned… citizen or not… there’s enough dirt again this man’s qualities and policies as a leader that I don’t care where he was at the time he exited his mom’s womb. He’s still a loser with a big “L” emblazoned on his forehead.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
http://www.ehow.com/list_7412079_differences-types-birth-certificates.html
Now, as I understand it, the Obama birth certificate that circulated around the web was a short form, basically a certificate stating that an official, certified birth certificate exists. The one that McCain produced, and Trump the second time, was a long form, or certified birth certificate. As for Obama’s, it has been alleged that it was a fake, as it was examined by a document expert. I don’t know if I believe that, nor if I believe that he wasn’t born here. As the Hawaiian officials asserts, she has seen the official document on his birth.
The question that arises is why Obama hasn’t produced the official birth certificate. McCain has done so, and as Mata has detailed, it was a big deal, and not just amongst the “fringe” leftist elements. Now imagine McCain only producing the short form, without much in the way of info other than the fact that he was born. Imagine that he wins the Presidency, and the groups asking for proof of his eligibility demand the official record, yet McCain fails to produce said record. Isn’t it within the realm of possibility, more probable than not, that many others who didn’t have much, if any question on McCain’s birth, would start wondering at the lack of an official certificate being produced? Wouldn’t more people want to see it, just as proof of the existence of the certificate, and not take the word of a government official of it’s existence, but insist on the actual record itself?
Now, call the “birthers” crazy if you want, but in my mind, if the shoe was on the other foot, there would still be questions arising from the lack of a certificate being produced. People simply want to see the proof of it, the existence of it, with their own eyes. If Obama simply produced the record in question, most of the conspiracy surrounding it would evaporate overnite. So the question remains: Why hasn’t he done so, unless it’s a political ploy of some kind?
@John: Rather than looking on blogs and at places like “ehow.com,” why not go directly to the state of Hawaii?
http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/vital-records/vital_records.html
Now, according to the State of Hawaii official who was in charge of such things, Obama did just that, presumably paid his $10 and got his birth certificate — the same type of birth certificate that everyone else would get — the kind which enables one to get a passport, etc. This is the type of document issued by Hawaii and it may be different from the type of document available in some other states.
According to the news story I referenced, the original Obama birth certificate is in a bound volume in the birth records department. Apparently Hawaii doesn’t issue photocopies of the original birth certificate; it issues whatever it is that Obama has and which he dutifully produced. It was not in his power as a candidate to tell the State of Hawaii that they ought to change the way they issue copies of birth certificates and it’s still not in his power as President to do so. The Hawaii official was asked by the then GOP Governor (and McCain supporter) to look into the charge that Obama might not be a citizen. She did so — looking at the original birth certificate, signed by the doctor who did the delivery, in the bound volume in the birth records department. And she dutifully reported this back to the Governor and the case was, therefore, closed. It would have to be a truly bizarre conspiracy, indeed, were this not to be the case. Conspiracy between the Obama campaign, the GOP Governor of Hawaii (and McCain supporter), and the official in charge of maintaining the birth records archives.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
Larry, there is a reason I didn’t go straight to Hawaii’s website on birth certificates. Although states have different forms of certificates, the general idea is the same, that of the certified birth certificate(long form), which Obama did NOT get, and the certificate of a birth record(short form), which is what was produced.
Much is made over the language used in discussing certificates of birth, and what one state considers a short form record, another state considers an official birth certificate.
I am not a “birther” as some people call them, but I am interested in why the certified copy of the official record is not being produced. That which you link above is not what has been presented to the public.
@Mata (#32): Will you at least not throw that “partisan talking points” stuff at me? I was simply quoting an article which appeared in the past 24 hours — an article which neither you nor John have done anything to refute. It’s not a “talking point.” It’s a news story. http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/42519951/ns/politics-more_politics/
The Hawaiian official stated directly that:
1. The GOP governor asked her to look into it.
2. She saw the original “long form” with her own eyes.
3. This satisified the GOP governor (and McCain supporter)
4. The document which Obama has (and which was produced for inspection) is the exact same document given to any other Hawaiian resident requesting a birth certificate.
With regard to your time spent with legal briefs, yes, you are correct. That’s not the way I typically spend my time. However, I’ll be more than willing to spend the time reading any legal brief to which you can direct me which contradicts the above narrative (points 1 through 4, above).
The fact that prior legal cases were tossed out because of lack of standing or whatever or the fact that SCOTUS refused to hear the cases says nothing at all about the merits (or, rather, obvious lack of merits) of the cases. You are circuitously hinting that these cases were dismissed on mere technicalities, implying that there may be merit to them, after all. And, with absolutely no knowledge at all of the details of Obama’s legal bills, you dismiss the other story I cited — you hint that Obama really did pay off $2M to bury the birth certificate issue — again, with no direct knowledge whatsoever and no source to quote.
It’s all just speculation and conjecture. Between your speculation and conjecture and the direct statements by the Hawaiian official who actually is in a position to know the facts, and who made statements exonerating Obama, citing the name of the then GOP Governor of Hawaii, who is in a position to refute her claims, were she lying or exaggerating — well, I consider the best evidence to be the statements of the Hawaiian official, and not your armchair analysis and conjecture.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
My my, Larry. Touchy. If you deliver talking points – i.e. the simplistic assumption this is about a single document only, and not the body of evidence as laid out in the lawsuits – then I’m going to call you on that. You have to know by now that I consider “journalists” and “news” a deplorable source of truth.
INRE the briefs, a simple Google search using Obama, Keyes, Kerchner and Berg will pull up various briefs through out the process. The links are vast, and not necessarily the latest briefs filed. Since I’m not following each case for the reasons I outline above. I’m not going to take the time to search out the latest brief for you to read. Additionally, reading only the latest briefs is akin to reading only the last stanza of a poem, or the last chapter of a novel, and assuming you know the plot line and characters.
I don’t think you have any more time to devote to that yourself, since you are engaged in a loftier goal for a career. So my suggestion is you simply read any of the three original complaints for Keyes, Kerchner or Berg just to get a handle on how much more complex this issue is than looking online for a COLB in Hawaii.
You don’t read well at all, do you, Larry? As I said, I read enough to see that, with all the evidence compiled (far beyond the single document upon which your rest your own “opinion”), that I see a wide open field for a final assessment. I have made no such final assessment.
You, apparently, with little knowledge of the lawsuits evidence and arguments, have. Personally, I’ll take my healthy “dunno” over your blanket “you’re a lunatic” any day of the week.
Larry, I have pointed out there are multiple lawsuits, only three of which I have mentioned to you. The gospel journalist you link as your truth god only deals with one law firm and one lawsuit. And you think I’m the speculator?
I assure you, like the states’ lawsuits against O’healthcare, there are more than that. I did not say I knew the costs for all combined for Obama’s multiple defenses. I merely pointed out that, with each appellate step in all of these, it wouldn’t surprise me if the current costs were at least $2 million, and are growing.
Personally, I hope it eats him out of house and home. Most especially that home that we, the people, call our own – the White House.
Not a lick of curiousity or incentive in your bones, eh Larry? How many times must I state this is not about the single document you hold up as the holy grail?
@MataHarley:
Agreed, agreed, agreed!
Although I do have to qualify my agreement with this: It is a curious thing that the certified, official birth certificate has never been presented to the public, even though as Larry linked, it is easily obtainable by Obama himself.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
Not a refutation, but can you explain this, then?
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1348916/Hawaii-governor-says-Obamas-birth-record-exists-produce-it.html#ixzz1JGKYC9fY
Why can one not produce the record itself, while another claims to have seen it? Do you see now why there are still questions that exist?
It’s not the Holy Grail, but it’s the best public evidence to date.
Her statements were direct, to the point, and she brought in the then GOP governor as her co-conspirator. If she’s lying or exaggerating, I expect that she’ll be called out for it.
I’ve just done a little superficial refreshing over the cases that you cite. I’m sure that I won’t find anything to refute the statements of Dr. Chiyome Fukino, the former director of Hawaii’s Department of Health, who personally stated that she personally saw the document, which she dug up at the specific request of Hawaii’s then GOP governor. The fact that the document may have disappeared in the interim between then and when Abercrombie went looking for it in January of 2011 raises a conspiracy theory vastly more credible than the current charges of Trump, et al.
Dr. Fukino isn’t some low level clerk. And she’s said the same things — three different times, e.g.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
Hey, if a state officials avowal is what it takes to appease you for a single document, and ignore the other events and documents in evidence, who are we to shake your faith in the Zero, Larry? But forgive me if I dismiss your dribblings on this as nothing more than a wide-eyed novice, sitting at the foot of their hero. Done on the birther thing with you. Gave you some pointers, challenged your curiousity… which you dismiss without reading and say “I’m sure that I won’t find anything…” in advance. I know this since these briefs aren’t “brief”, and often entail a bit of side searching just to clarify some of their points. Your “curiousity” has been way too “brief” to be convincing in your efforts.
Closed minded individuals on facts, truths and legal nuances do not interest me.
ta ta
@mata: You’ve cited no facts at all. You’ve linked to no evidence. You make reference to “briefs” and tell me to go find what you are thinking about on Google. I’ve at least provided links to the testimony of the Hawaiian Director of Health, a medical doctor, who stated, forthrightly and directly, three different times (which I linked) that she saw, with her own eyes, the elusive long form document. She further stated that she did so on the direction of the then GOP governor of Hawaii, who was a McCain supporter. She is, thusly, in a position to be called out if she is lying or exaggerating. Furthermore, she states that Obama was given (and produced) exactly the same type of Birth Certificate which is officially given to all people born in Hawaii, who need such documents.
I may not have read the briefs, but it is a certainty that the various jurisdictions (including SCOTUS) have read them. The fact that the suits were dismissed for various and sundry reasons, without the cases being heard, does nothing at all to support the speculation that there is any merit whatsoever in these cases.
I’ve at least produced some credible links to credible testimony from the one person in a position to actually have direct knowledge of the facts of the case. You’ve produced nothing beyond speculation and derisive dismissal.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
Desperate, Larry.
No, the cases have not been “dismissed”. They have been ruled on for reasons that have nothing to do with the merits of the birth evidence. Nor are briefs what *I* “am thinking”… they are the presentation of the evidence you desperately wish not to see, or consider.
Your “credible links” have proven to be uncredible for the reasons I stated above…. the cash cited did not include multiple lawsuits. The CLOB is not the only document under fire in the lawsuits, and actually constitutes a very small part of their evidence. Nor is the statement of an official any proof. It is simply a statement of an official who rests comfortable that law will not force her hand.
If you are not willing to do a bit of reading on the original briefs, I am not willing to waste my time arguing how gullible you are for your simplistic faith. As I pointed out, this is a legal waiting game for Obama. Has nothing to do with truth, but playing the system.
And while I did not give you “derisive dismissal” in any of my comments, you most certainly deserve “derisive dismissal” for your stance. Waste of time… and time I do not have. I suspect neither do you, save to save what little face you have on this subject. My suggestion? Turn your talents elsewhere. You have proven yourself to be sorely lacking in this one.
Case closed… and a *real* dismissal.
Larry, the article you posted said that when anyone asked for proof of birth from Hawaii, they get a certificate of live birth that has no certifying official signature. I took 3 forms of identification to get my passport from the State Department and I only had a certificate of live birth. They told me I needed to get an official Birth Certificate and gave me a web site where I could order it. A birth certificate is not the same as a certificate of live birth. As a physician, I would expect that you would know the difference.
Hence, Randy, the “COLB” acronym used for the cert of live birth. How interesting, as reiterated before, that you need more than that for a mere passport, while another can get elected with less. But I guess you didn’t ask that information goddess, “the Hawaiian Director of Health, a medical doctor” to save you the trouble. Funny… even the HI governor, after putting himself on the line, didn’t have that many talking points with such confidence. He’s been back peddling ever since trying to “help”. LOL
But for clarification, Larry’s specialty is curing cancer, not in OB/GYN.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
Larry, you are discussing apples and comparing them to Mata’s oranges, and then claiming that your apples make all other fruit a moot point. The fact is, as Mata has tried to explain, and as I suggested above, that the “birther” issue isn’t just one of where Obama is born.
Just because a Hawaiian government official asserts that Obama was, in fact, born in Hawaii, and has seen the certified, official birth certificate, bears no relevance on Obama’s qualifications regarding Article II, Section 1, which states, “No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President;”
There are court cases, as Mata has named, that discuss and attempt to disqualify Obama based on the “natural born citizen” requirement.
Your “birther” accusations are falling on deaf ears here, as neither Mata, or myself, are all that concerned about the issue. We have more important topics to discuss, such as debt, deficits, taxes, and unconstitutional actions by Obama and the democrats.
@openid.aol.com/runnswim: And Larry, if you think that is the truth, I have a bridge in Brooklin I will sell you real cheap.
This is getting ridiculous. The birth certificate is the ONLY document of any relevance. They can get the sworn testimony of a dozen grandmothers, but all it takes is a single birth certificate to trump everything else. The medical doctor who was the health director for the State of Hawaii at the time in question has, upon three occasions, stated explicitly that she saw the long form birth certificate, signed by the doctor who delivered the baby, and she did so upon the direction of the GOP Governor of Hawaii, who was a McCain supporter and in a position to refute her direct and forthright account.
If you can provide a link to anything at all which refutes her statements, then it’s worthy of consideration. Her statements are the very best public evidence available to date. If you have any evidence at all which you deem to be superior, I shall be happy to read and consider it. Until you can direct me to such evidence, all you’ve got, once again, is your own armchair speculation.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
With respect to the statement of the current (circa 2011) Hawaiian governor, now there you have the makings of an actual conspiracy theory, with a smidgeon of credibility. Interesting that the document existed in 2008 and has now gone missing. Is there anyway that you can think of that that might have happened? All it takes is one person to pick up a bound volume in a hall of records and put it somewhere other than where it belongs.
You can trash the statements of Dr. Fukino. No, she’s not an “information goddess.” She was the Health Director for the State of Hawaii. And she’s vastly more credible than anything I’ve seen from the birther side of this discussion.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
Really? Then why doesn’t he show it? And don’t give me that crap about he tried. The link you gave us provided the info to request and receive a certified birth certificate, and not a COLB, two totally different entities, mind you.
But, of course, you still swing and miss. Even a true, certified, official birth certificate doesn’t trump a court case based on other issues, such as the Constitution’s “natural born citizen” requirement. As Mata has stated, it is a lot of legal discussion to work through, and as of this moment, the courts are not doing so, only stopping to dismiss the cases, “without standing”, or frivolous, and not delving into the evidence.
If nothing else, Larry, Trump has certainly upped the discussion about Obama’s birth here on FA, lol.
@johngalt: Since you have so much regard for eHow, how about reading this? –>
http://www.ehow.com/list_7489829_types-birth-certificates-hawaii.html
You will note that there is NO SUCH THING as a “long form” birth certificate, which is issued to people born in Hawaii. Despite your own experience in obtaining a passport, the Hawaiian “Certificate of Live Birth” is, indeed, the official birth certificate required for US Passports. There is no provision for photocopying the original birth certificate, which is present in bound volumes in the place where such records are kept (unless removed by a saboteur, or whatever). If Obama wanted to inspect his own original birth certificate, he’d have to go there in person, sign in, and look at it under supervision (I read that elsewhere; didn’t copy the link).
The best evidence, by far, which has currently been offered in this matter is the direct statement of the medical doctor who was Hawaii’s health director before the 2008 election, which I’ve quoted and cited several times. She stated that she saw the original birth certificate, signed by the doctor that delivered the baby, on two separate occasions. As pointed out, she did this under the direction of Hawaii’s then GOP governor, who’s in a position to refute her statements, if exaggerated or untrue.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
@openid.aol.com/runnswim:
Regardless of what the Hawaiian government official asserts, it has little bearing on the court cases, other than to provide evidence of parentage.
As Mata has done, so will I. You keep missing the point about the birther issue, and I’m done talking about it.
yes, Larry… you continue the embarrassing ridiculous and desperate tirade. For all your pontificating in the above, do you see anything other than some current official, claiming that she “saw” a certificate.
Doesn’t anything about that raise an eyebrow? i.e….. Well.. yessir, I saw it but I can’t prove to you I saw it. You’ll just have to believe me.
I’m sorry.. do you think government documents can be forged? Do you think this information goddess, whom you believe with all your heart and soul speaks gospel truth, was present at Obama’s birth?
but no… duh. Gee. She’s in the medical profession. She must always speak the truth and recognize an authentic document when she sees it. You’re a professional bigot. Go no.
Oh bloody horse manure. You’re the one asking the rest of the free world to believe that because someone saw it – sans any proof – it has to be true (because she’s in the medical profession… sigh) while everyone else in the world must provide an accepted copy. Let me ask you this, Larry… do you believe that documents can be forged? Or are you that naive as well? Which brings me to:
Welcome to the real world of legal evidence and questions. Documents can be forged. Officials can be less than truthful. And records of other countries, as well as prior events INRE student funding and travel can be admitted as evidence in a court of law to cast doubt on the document you hold as the holy grail as being authentic. Not for you to decide. It’s for a court of law to decide, based on the evidence.
Oh wait… I forgot. No court of law wants to touch it, so we ignore potential evidence. It’s too much of a hot potato.
How the hell would you know? You’ve read nothing, or refuse to read anything, with an open mind on legal evidence. At best you could have skimmed court briefs… if you even bothered to search for them. She’s just one more mouthpiece, like you, saying “trust me”.
You are one danged embarrassing apologist, Larry. I’m not saying that Obama is, or is not, a citizen. What is am truly embarrassing about you is your willing acceptance for flimsly evidence that any jury or court of law would demand more than simply hearsay “I saw it”.
Finale…. so sorry I bothered to waste my time this much on you. Like I said, this is a time waster simply because of the length of the process. But as offensive as I find the birther fanatics, I find you more offensive.
Larry and Mata Great debate between two worthy adversaries.
Seems Palin,concerned about being out blustered by The Donald, has reverted to the birther side while Bachmann, Coulter and it would appear most Conserv. publications take the other side.
Can’t wait for Iowa.Romney/Rubio 2012.
Mata, your desire to refute the lack of logic from Larry is admirable. All I can say is I have NEVER seen Larry change his mind or admit he was wrong about something. For all his education, he is still a liberal with far too much of his ego tied up in his opinions.
I wonder if Larry knows most of us here think Obama is a U.S. citizen? We simply feel that anyone elected to president needs to show proof of citizenship.
As for the doofus (aka donald)
He apparently wants to be the new perot.
http://hotair.com/archives/2011/04/12/trump-says-hed-probably-run-as-independent-if-he-doesnt-win-republican-nomination/
Hard Right, hi, than’s for the link, HE sure is telling the right words of his agenda,
nobody would fool around on his turf
@mata: This is utterly ridiculous. You haven’t cited one iota of evidence to contradict the direct, forthright statement of the Hawaiian Health Director, who is an MD working in the private sector — not some political hack or even current civil servant, working under the direction and instruction of the GOP Hawaiian governor (a McCain supporter, who is in a position to refute her if she is lying or exaggerating), who reviewed the document — twice — in a nearly half-century old bound volume (which you claim might be forged)). This currently constitutes the best evidence, unless you can directly cite any more credible evidence to the contrary.
You make vague references to “briefs” filed in a series of birther lawsuits which were tossed out of court. You provide no specific citations or links. You do not even cite or list specific evidence which contradicts the direct statements of the Hawaiian Health Director, nor do you cite any evidence which you believe to be more credible.
You support the views of JohnGalt, who, along with the other birthers, believes that Obama has in his possession some sort of long form birth certificate — which doesn’t even exit in Hawaii, save for the original, in the bound volume. Why doesn’t Obama “release” his birth certificate? Well, he already has released his OFFICIAL Hawaiian birth certificate. The same birth certificate that all the other residents of Hawaii produce to get a drivers license, register for school. or get a US passport.
And you are attacking ME? For what? For not being able to read your mind? For not being able to figure out exactly what information you have which would indicate that Obama is either not a US citizen or wasn’t really born in Hawaii, or else is preventing the “release” of his “true” birth certificate?
How the heck do I know what on earth is bothering you? Obama proved that he was a US citizen. He’s hiding and/or withholding nothing. Show me a reference that Hawaii makes “long form” birth certificates available to anyone. Just a link. I sent links to the types of birth certificates which Hawaii issues and it shows that what Obama made public is the one and only “official” birth certificate issued by Hawaii. So tell me — tell me directly — what is he hiding? What is he refusing to make public? Tell me, and give me a link to prove that the type of document which you claim he is hiding actually does exist.
Is there anyone out there reading this blog who was born in Hawaii? What type of birth certificate do you have?
This is utterly ridiculous, is what it is. And you, Mata, are squarely in the birther camp, right up there with Sarah and Donald, with all your armchair legalese, supported only by sloganeering and not by any facts whatsover.
@Hard: When I’m wrong, I admit it. You convinced me that I was wrong about the arbitrary 10 round limit on semiautomatic magazines. On this very thread, I admitted that I was wrong by underestimating the degree to which there was a substantial amount of McCain birtherism, to counterbalance the Obama birtherism. When I find the time to revisit the global warming stuff, I’ll admit that a decline from peak solar activity doesn’t have to be immediately followed by a decline in global temperature (this is a complicated discussion, however, and I intend to respond in a more than cursory fashion). I’ve had other mea culpas, as well. I do make mistakes, but I don’t “lie” and will never tolerate an implication that I have done so.
But, no, I’m not wrong in stating that tax cuts lose money to the treasury which must be made up for by increased borrowing. I’m not wrong in stating that the CRA had nothing to do with the financial meltdown. And so forth. The mere fact that I’m outnumbered 10 to 1 and can never get the last word on anything doesn’t make me wrong. It’s just a reflection of the political views of the general readership of this blog, which is just fine. I know what I’m getting into when I jump into these things. It’s actually quite enjoyable, which is why I do it, as opposed to preaching to the choir on a blog populated by more people who think along the lines that I think.
– Larry Weisenthal/Huntington Beach, CA
Larry, I’m going to point out your reading disabilities one more time:
I don’t give a whit about the birth certificate because that legal process will extend years beyond any potential second term.
The briefs I mentioned merely as an educational tool for you – a fool and devotee who seems fixated on only one document that you accept exists by hearsay – citing their evidence that indicates that document either doesn’t exist, or isn’t authentic. These are not my citations. They are the citations of the lawyers and plaintiffs who provided evidence. Evidence you prefer not to know about. They are only “vague” to the internet research challenged who prefer to spout talking points instead of actually doing a simple search and finding the briefs to read on Justia.
The cases were not thrown out. They had a ruling by a judge that said the plaintiff bringing the lawsuit didn’t have standing. They never addressed the evidence or merits of the case. Those cases are, to my knowledge, still active in the appellate system.
Let me put that in the simple language you seem to need. The judge simply said, paraphrased, “I’m not looking at your evidence because you have no right to complain.” That evidence could, or may not, be significant. We don’t know because no judge wants to give anyone the standing to make a complaint.
Obama “proved” nothing. You rest everything you believe on some who says so. Me? When I read what a lawsuit has dug up as evidence that throws water on what you believe is a clean cut case, I tend to go the way of our legal system. He’s not guilty, but then again, he’s not innocent either. Only examination of that evidence in a court of law, and a final ruling by the highest court, would actually answer that. But I’m sure not the salivating, blind fool you are just because someone in Hawaii says so.
Like I said, I don’t care. I will once again repeat…. he could be a citizen, or he may not be a citizen. I don’t give him a status nod either way until I saw that evidence and counter defense played out. Until then, I DON’T GIVE A SHIT.
The only way I’m a “birther” is in your overactive imagination. On the flip side, you are a blind, uncurious Obama devotee who’s quick to sling arrows when someone doesn’t believe what you believe. I began this conversation in a civil manner. You changed that tone with your comment #34, inflating and alluding to things I didn’t say, or believe. In your utter frustration to convince me that, because someone in Hawaii said so, I should blindly accept that too, you culminate with your labeling of me as a “lunatic” birther.
Do me a favor…. talk to someone who gives a damn about your uneducated opinions and overwrought hormones.
OPENID.AYOL.COM/RUNNSWIM HI, NOW WHY DID HE SPEND THOSE MILLIONS TO CONCEAL IT?
doesn’t it make it look suspicious?
MCCAIN did not do that, he just show it to the people,
Bottom Line Here Folks,
Individuals like LTC. (RET) Allen West, Randy and Myself had to submit to a more invasive and credible process to be granted TS Clearances than Mr. Obama did to get his name on the ballot for CiC. The Legal wrangling and obfuscation on an issue as simple as a Long Form Birth Certificate, US Passport Application or College Transcripts lends to an indication that there is something that is hidden for a good self serving cause. My Service is above Self as My Oath of Office demands.
Call me a Birther if You choose. My Birth Certificate is on File as are my College Transcripts, known life long Associates and places of Residence for the past 40 Years with DOD as well as OERs. I have nothing to hide but that information is for Official Use Only so don’t expect me to post My Resume here. As far as I am concerned and those that are my Current Employers, I passed a Higher credibility test than any Career Politician or Community Organizer with an essentially Blank Resume and Negotiable Values.
Place that in perspective.