Glenn Reynolds @ USA Today:
Last week, I speculated that we may be seeing a “preference cascade,” as people who previously supported Obama now feel safe about publicly changing their minds. It seems that we’re seeing more of that this week as word of the Benghazi debacle spreads. The Obama campaign no doubt hopes you’ll be distracted from this by hurricane news, but that’s probably a vain hope on its part.
On the left, the defections are mounting. Last week, I spoke to Camille Paglia about her new book on art history, but she also stopped to explain why she wasn’t voting for Obama this time: basically, disappointment. She said he ran as a moderate, but has been “one of the most racially divisive and polarizing figures ever. I think it’s going to take years to undo the damage to relationships between the races.”
She was also unhappy with the Libya intervention — which admittedly hasn’t turned out well — and with the ongoing drone attacks, as well as the way ObamaCare turned out. She says she’ll vote for Green Party candidate Jill Stein, whom I interviewed here a while back, instead.
Others on the “progressive” side are coming out, too. In Salon.com, longtime netroots activist Matt Stoller makes “the progressive case against Obama.” Stoller’s case is largely economic. He writes of the new ordering created by the Obama administration’s interventions: “The bailouts and the associated Federal Reserve actions were not primarily shifts of funds to bankers; they were a guarantee that property rights for a certain class of creditors were immune from challenge or market forces.” He’s right, and there are some Chrysler bondholders, and non-UAW pensionholders who can attest to that firsthand.
In The Atlantic, Conor Friedersdorf writes “Why I Refuse To Vote For Barack Obama.” “I’d have thought more people on the left would regard a sustained assault on civil liberties and the ongoing, needless killing of innocent kids as deal-breakers.” Well, lefties complained more under Bush, but some are unhappy.
Petercat #31 The tee shirt question was directed to AdrianS
Far right extremist views see Aye’s #5. I know you don’t agree with him.
Rounding up all undocumented immigrants and sending them home immediately.
Overturning Roe vs Wade
Believing the POTUS is a Muslim born in Kenya.
Lets start with those “far right” views.
Your thoughts on AdrianS ” I’m voting for the White Guys”
Semper Fi
@Mr. Irons, #50:
That’s the sort of comment that occasionally follows when someone doesn’t want to address what was just posted.
—
On an unrelated topic, it was gratifying to hear Chris Christie’s acknowledgement that Obama has been performing very well during the current national disaster. Presumably people are aware that there’s been a national disaster.
@Greg: #49
Okay, that’s an eye opener.
I have a problem with HR3 and HR358, even though they don’t actually prohibit abortion, I think that every medical procedure should receive the same tax treatment as any other. I don’t want the government choosing favorites no matter what it is about.
HR212 is just too much of an infringement on personal liberty. Much too far.
Well, Greg, thanks for providing the information that proves that I was wrong. It won’t keep me from being a conservative, but I do need to be a bit more vigilant.
@Petercat, #53:
I’m not entirely sure that some of the provisions in those bills actually are conservative, in the traditional meaning of the term. Definitions seem to have changed recently.
@Richard Wheeler: #51
I was responding to your comment (#5) which appears to be addressing me.
As for Adrian’s t-shirt, I think it’s right in line with Democrat buttons seen at the convention such as “Once you go Black” and other pandering.
I won’t wear any of them. Very bad taste all around.
I don’t want racial references in this campaign at all. They distract from the serious issues, and are too easy for the opposition to point at and scream, which hurts my ears.
I don’t care who is what race, gender or sexual preference. I care about their character.
And racial references are too often used as an excuse for abuse.
@Greg: #54
No, no, no, Greg- They’re evolving.
I don’t know about conservatives in general, we can get a little rowdy. My own position is more libertarian. I believe that an individual should be free to do whatever he wants, as long as he or she harms no one else. Although the definition of “harm” can get pretty nebulous. But the government should just butt out of many areas that it is currently infecting.
As I said earlier, my default position is “personal freedom/personal responsibility”.
I do believe in giving someone a hand up, I’m against handouts.
It gets complicated. I’ll stop now.
PeterCat Correction 1) Your thoughts on Aye’s #19.
2) Overthrowing Roe vs Wade
3) Immediately deporting all undocumented workers,. As in “they broke the law and must be deported immediately”
4) Obama is a Muslim born in Kenya
These are “far right” beliefs. Are they yours? I’d like to know. Thanks
@Richard Wheeler:
And your thoughts on:
the government, through the IRS, taking money from those who legally earned it to give to those who the politicians are pandering to for votes?
abortion upon demand, no matter the age of the fetus or its ability to breath on its own once delivered?
allowing illegal immigrants who are gangbangers who have no criminal records although they are gang members to remain in this country under Obama’s EO Dream Act that usurpted Congressional authority?
Obama’s usurpting of the power of the Congress as mandated by the U.S. Constitution?
demanding there be no voter I.D. requirements although to enter the Democrat National Convention you had to show a photo I.D.?
Aren’t those left wing beliefs?
Retire 05 For starters- usurpting- What is that?
I’d abolish the IRS and replace it with a Fair Tax based on consumption.
I support Roe vs Wade as do a majority of Americans
I support a path to citizenship for those who are working here and have not been convicted of a crime. support citizenship for those who have served honorably and support Dream Act
I believe a person should prove who they are when they vote.
Would you be so kind as to give your responses to questions posed to PeterCat in 57. Thanks
Semper Fi
@Greg: #3
Do you personally know anyone that is not liberal? I have the feeling you don’t know anyone that is not a koolaid drinker.
@Greg: #9.
You don’t give women much credit do you? They know that abortion will not be made illegal. about 75% of the country is in favor of women having control over their bodies and that’s not going to change and all thinking average everyday women know that. They are more concerned about employment, making a living and the state of the country. This applies to both parties.
So if I understand this discussion liberals are not abandoning Obama due to a fear they won’t be able to abort on demand at any time if Romney is elected.
Killing the unborn must be the main pole that hold up the liberal tent and all troops must defend that pole above all else.
Jobs, debt, national security all are not even on the liberal radar once someone mentions abortion.
Sad.
@Aye: Is this kind of ad hominem really necessary? (#4)
@Redteam: One thing for everyone to ponder regardless of their position on abortion, is that if Roe vs. Wade would have been in effect prior to 4 August 1961, there is a good chance we wouldn’t be arguing about an Obama presidency.
@Greg: Right. That’s what all politicians should do. This isn’t a soccer match, it’s the running of our government by those we select. My question is that if a Dem leader gave kudos to a Rep president, would it make the news? Already the tone of the media concerning Chris Christie’s props are somehow being used as an endorsement for Obama. Do you think that?
A.V. Re #64 Ugly and beneath you.
Where’s PeterCat re my #57?
Semper Fi
@Aye: If you believe someone is lying, wouldn’t it be better to point out why, and document evidence, than simply resort to name calling?
Here’s an example: “My interpretation of Mourdock’s statement was that ‘the rape itself’ wasn’t God’s will, but the ensuing pregnancy was.” (Then you could enlist linguistic analysis as evidence for your position).
Then a truly rational argument could be pursued.
@Richard Wheeler:
I don’t support the Fair Tax which is basically a sales tax that would disproportionately affect the poor and the elderly. I support a flat income tax, no exemptions, not even for children, for all income ranges. Progressive income tax is simply one of the tenets of the Communist Manifesto. It would be simple: what was your income? Multiply by 5%, pay that amount. It would also eliminate filing income tax as the amount, 5%, 10%, whatever, could be deducted from your paycheck and you would not have to file income tax returns unless you had additional earnings separate from your salary.
Roe vs. Wade: the most hyped law we have. Simply an extension of Margaret Sanger’s eugenics program. Ever notice how Planned Parenthood builds their abortion mills in poor, predominately black neighborhoods? The largest PP facility in the nation is in Sheila Jackson Lee’s district which is probably 90% black. There is a reason for that. Abortion should be the most rarely used medical procedure in our nation. As I have explained, incest/rape represents less than 1% of the reasons given for women having abortions. That means that in 99+% of the cases, the “choice” in what to do with her body was made prior to conception. If you drink too much, and kill another human being in a auto fatality, why is that not acceptable, but if you have unprotected sex and want to kill the consequences of that choice, it is OK? In both cases, choices were made before the event happened.
If women are getting abortions after a rape, then we have a problem with having an informed public who should understand that rape is a crime and should be reported immediately when medical treatment is readily available to the raped woman that would prevent conception. The criminal needs to go to jail for his violation of another person. The stigma of being violently raped needs to be removed so that women are willing to report it. And raped women should not have to have their faces posted across the front pages of newspapers in order to testify against their attacker. Women need to be secure that they will protected against public scrutiny just as minors are in cases of incest.
Illegal immigration: it is a violation of our federal laws. Please, explain to me what laws I can violate and not be held responsible for those violations? I have read where people claim entering our nation illegally is no greater than getting a speeding ticket. If that is the case, what do you think the punishment would be if I got a speeding ticket every day? Would I be allowed to continue to drive? Would I do some jail time? Every day that the illegal remains in this nation, without our permission, they are breaking our laws.
When it takes five years for people from other nations to get a visa to come here to live, and they have to jump through multiple hoops to do so, why are we giving illegals a pass? I don’t care what nation the illegal is from, they need to go back to their native land, and apply for entry and go through the process like others do. Immigration is supposed to benefit the host nation, not benefit the immigrant. Having Mexico dumps its peon class on the United States so they don’t have to provide them with government resources is not what it should be all about, but it is. I also don’t support chain migration or quotas.
If you are here illegally, you should not be eligible for any social services. No driver’s licence, no welfare payments, no food stamps, no Medicaid, no public housing. Why do we allow illegals to feed at the government trough? You should not be able to get a job, and if you are hired under the table, the employer should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. End the lure, you end the illegal migration. And yes, if you get so much as a jay walking ticket, you should be deported immediately. Mexico whines and moans about our immigration laws. Ever check what their laws are? I suggest you read the Mexican constitution. You will be shocked how Mexico makes demands on the United States that violates their own constitution.
And you are aware that you have to be a “legal” immigrant to join the military, right?
Do I believe Obama was born in Kenya? I haven’t got a clue. Probably not.
@Aye: Perhaps you should consult a dictionary for the meaning the word ‘liar’—included in the meaning is “intention” to deceive. Much of what the ultra-right-wing-extremists call ‘lying’ would fit more as “mistaken”—by recognizing this distinction, you would a lot of superfluous argument (assuming superfluous argument is not your goal).
Retire05 You answer with great specificity and the best you can do on Kenyan birth is probably not? No guts. Afraid to offend your birther friends?
Think he’s a Muslim?
@Aye: A lot of us non-biblical people don’t believe that a fetus is an unborn child—in the sense of a person who is even aware, at least, of their own existence. So, the religious, super-morality argument—coupled with the didactic imagery of “scraping it from the womb”—doesn’t play with us.
@Aye: How can anything that isn’t even aware of its own existence have the right to the life it doesn’t even know it has?
@Richard Wheeler:
I gave you an honest answer. Just because it was not what you wanted me to say doesn’t eliminate that. I don’t know. I do know there is a reason that Obama would not allow his birth certificate to become public information. Do I think he was born in Hawaii? Yeah, my personal opinion is that he was. Do I think there is a reason he has sealed all his personal records? You betcha.
Do I think Obama is a Muslim? No. Frankly, I think he is an atheist, like his mother was, or at least an agnostic. I am of the opinion he joined Trinity Church in order to be accepted in a community that is very leery of outsiders and to gain some “cred” in that community but the truth is he sat in a church for 20 years that subscribed to Black Liberation theology that is built on Marxism. If my minister/priest had given such anti-American sermons that railed against people of another race, I would have gotten up, walked out and never went back. Obama didn’t and then when it was politically expedient, threw his pastor under the bus after having praised Jeremiah Wright, Jr. for years and in many different speeches. Obama never said he disagreed with Wright, he just claimed to not know what Wright said, and that after having taken Wright’s audio tapes to college with him.
Do you think Obama, through the HHS, has the right to violate the First Amendment?
Lib1 In #19 Aye made his beliefs crystal clear.Though I DISAGREE I respect his CLARITY of opinion.
That’s Aye. You always know where he stands.
Retire05 now says “I think he was born in Hawaii” O.K. I don’t think anyone has the right to violate the First Amendment. Believe unequivocally Obama was born in Hawaii.
@Liberal1 (Objectivity):
Lib1, do people in comas have a right to life? They are, at that point, unaware of their own existance but there is always the possibility they will wake up and become productive citizens. Should we just pull the plug on every human being that goes into a coma?
@Nan G: The war on all women is a political theme. If a person want to take away a woman’s right to choose whether or not to have an abortion, or whether or not she can make use of contraception, on religious grounds—which is basis of these issues—then they have restricted some women’s civil rights. Let’s be clear on the issue before we argue with it.
@Nan G: Correct. I wouldn’t want Douthant and his fantasies to be my governor.
@Liberal1 (Objectivity):
Fuck you. Next question.
@Liberal1 (Objectivity):
I did point out and document his lies in post #12.
Do try and keep up.
@Liberal1 (Objectivity):
Greg falsely stated Mourdock’s position as he is wont to do on many topics here at FA. This is a pattern of bad behavior, established by him over a long period of time.
He is much like you in that regard so I understand why you felt the need to come to his defense.
@Liberal1 (Objectivity):
@Liberal1 (Objectivity):
From a previous discussion of this topic which you ran from like a six year old girl:
@Richard Wheeler:
I said I did not know. What about that is beyond your comprehension? I also said it was my “opinion” that Obama was born in Hawaii. That is not unequivocal belief that he was.
Tell me, outside of the birth certificate that was first posted on DailyKos and then appeared on the president’s website the next day, what proof do you have of where he was born?
@johngalt: Aren’t you on the wrong feed? Sounds like a carbon copy of what you side on another feed. Perhaps you should look up the word ’embellish’ in the dictionary. Romney doesn’t just embellish things—decorate them or make up fanciful stories about them—to make them more palatable, he spreads misinformation.
Retireo5 My point is you’ve gone from ”haven’t got a clue if he was born in Kenya. Probably not.”
To Yeah I think he was born in Hawaii. Appreciate your clarifying that.
Posted birth certificate and Mother’s and Grandparent’s assertions good enough for me.
@retire05: Auntie Retire05: Do you know that abortion rates are higher in countries where it’s illegal? Look it up. And so are the death rates due to abortion—for all you religiously moral people. (Maybe it’s god’s will.)
@retire05:
Umm, no it doesn’t. There are exemptions written in the Fair Tax for that.
http://www.fairtax.org/site/DocServer/A_Distributional_Analysis_of_Adopting_the_FairTax.pdf?docID=781
@Richard Wheeler:
Mother hasn’t made an assertion on the matter. She’s dead.
Granny in Kenya says he was born in…wait for it… Kenya.
What else ya got?
@Redteam: I think you’re a kool-aid drinker—just a different flavor.
Aye Do you doubt that his mother ever asserted he was born in Honolulu Hawaii? I said Grandparents. I’ll clarify. Maternal
Are you a birther? I believe you’re too smart for that.lol
@Richard Wheeler:
Posted birth certificate first appeared on DailyKos. Don’t have a problem with Obama’s bc being on a far left website before it appeared on his own? Color me skeptical of anything re: DailyKos.
As I said: I don’t know. I have no proof of birth anywhere. I can only have an opinion which is not necessarily possessing of facts. Quit trying to spin what I said.
Mother is dead and never made an issue of Obama’s birth. Grandmother Dunham never made a statement on it, one way or the other. Granny in Kenya said he was born in Kenya.
@Richard Wheeler:
Provide maternal grandmother’s statements on the place of Barack Obama, Jr.’s birth. And don’t use a newspaper birth announcement as proof. My dad put my son’s birth announcement in the Dallas Morning News. I didn’t live there. I was living in a totally different state.
@Richard Wheeler:
You say that his mother made that claim but she’s been dead for years.
You claim that the maternal grandparents made that claim as well. Grandpa has been dead for years too and Grandma died just before the election 2008.
What did those people have to say on the matter? Links please.
Your point. Your onus.
Aye and Retire 05 after me at the same time, Will wonders never cease?
Happy Holloween
Richard dodging request to provide links to maternal grandmother’s statements affirming location of Barack’s birth. Will wonders never cease?
@Liberal1 (Objectivity):
I’d say that you need to look up the word ’embellish’, Lib1. My use of the term is accurate, as Webster’s definition fits.
Nice try, though.
Rich said;
And there it is. When anybody raises debatable points, or questions, about Obama, Rich resorts to trying to painting them as “birthers”.
@Petercat: #45, I find that I am almost completely in agreement. I do not think abortions should be a primary method of birth control, but I do believe that if a woman finds herself pregnant for whatever reason and she determines it is not in her best interest to have a child, she should have the personal freedom to have an abortion. I do think there should be limitations, such as in the first trimester. I am a very conservative person and will never vote for a dimocrat but I won’t force a person to do something they feel is personally against their best interests. As I have said before, I think about 75% of the population feels that way and therefore, whoever is elected will never be able to ‘overturn’ freedom of choice. The women have no worries along this line. I would like to point out, however, that the person involved should have to pay, not the government.
J.G. Aye ,Retireo5 and myself have been SPECIFICALLY discussing where BHO was BORN. That would be a birther issue. Care to weigh in?
Redteam Agree Romney will not try to overturn Roe vs Wade. He may get my vote.
@Greg: #49 The first two things you reference only deals with ‘who pays’, doesn’t seem to prohibit the abortion itself. I agree that the person should have to pay for the procedure. The third thing does not mention making in-vitro illegal, it only states that life begins at fertilization. The truth should be sufficient.
@Richard Wheeler:
Actually, that’s not quite true.
What I’ve been discussing is your claims and what you say you rely on as proof to support those claims.
@another vet: #64
well, depends on how much prior to 4 Aug 61 as it seems as if it’s pretty firm that he was likely born in Jan/Feb 61 (but in Kenya) wonder if abortions were legal in Kenya back then.
@Richard Wheeler: #70
I have no problem with your question. Most likely born in Kenya in Jan/Feb 1961 and yes he is now and was born a muslim.
@Richard Wheeler: Think about it. Most abortions are for unwanted pregnancies. His mother obviously did not want him or else she would have raised him. Don’t you think if she was legally able to have an abortion, there was a strong possibility she would have done so? If you consider that ugly, then it means abortion is ugly. Your side seems to view abortion as though it’s something that is a really great thing because it’s equal to freedom. The more abortions, the better indicator of how free a society is.