“Well, Govan, if we are to die, let us die like men.”
Gen. Patrick R. Cleburne
Is there ANY ONE of you who doubts that this man said this when all hope (with honor) was lost and he proudly stood up to do what he saw as his duty?
Is there ANY ONE of you who doubts that this man knew the consequences of performing the duty he bound himself to do?
Is there ANY ONE of you who could stretch credulity enough to imagine these words EVER falling from the lips of the man in the White House?
Is there ANY ONE of you who could stretch credulity enough to imagine that the man in the White House EVER entertained the concept of SELF SACRIFICE FOR DUTY WITH HONOR?
Is there ANY ONE of you who thinks the mixed race child raised in privilege in Hawaii by doting white grandparents to now occupy the White House EVER stood any severe trials of character?
Is there ANY ONE of you who truly thinks that any omission of this courage is irrelevant in the character of the people we choose to lead us?
Why does this country insist on looking for leadership from men who belittle honor, patriotism, self sacrifice and courage while responding to any criticism of their ill advised social policies with charges of greed, inhumanity and racism or blame their failures on the actions of others as a matter of course?
General Cleburne, recently engaged to be married, was killed in the battle of Franklin!
General Cleburne was born in Ireland and lived in Arkansas.
Before the battle of Franklin, Tennessee (emphasis mine):
[Gen] Hood told his commanders his plans for a frontal assault against the Federal works and asked for opinions. Major Generals Nathan B. Forrest, B. Franklin Cheatham, and Cleburne all advised against an attack over open fields against entrenchments and artillery.
As General Cleburne mounted his horse to return to his division, Hood ordered:
“General, form your division to the right of the pike, letting your left overlap the same. General Brown will form on the left with his right overlapping your left. I wish you to move on the enemy. Give orders to your men not to fire a gun until you run the Yankee skirmish line from behind the first line of works in your front, then press them and shoot them in their backs as they run to their main line; then charge the enemy works. Franklin is the key to Nashville and Nashville is the key to independence.”
Cleburne replied, “General, I will take the works or fall in the attempt.”
…Before the fateful Battle of Franklin, General Cleburne held his last meeting with his brigade commanders on Breezy Hill. Brigadier General Daniel C. Govan felt that General Cleburne was “greatly depressed.” General Cleburne emphasized Hood’s orders that the Federal works must be carried by the point of the bayonet at all hazards. Govan saluted and said, “Well, General, few of us will ever return to Arkansas to tell the story of this battle.” Cleburne replied with a sentiment that was prevalent in most of the hearts of the men in the gallant Army of Tennessee: “Well, Govan, if we are to die, let us die like men.”
While I’d have tried to find another way to take the place, like infiltrating at night, I understand General Cleburne’s attitude wish we had more like him.
Cleburne was also the first Southern general who openly advocated freeing and arming the slaves to fight for the South. A number of the generals and commanders serving under him supported the idea. Generals elsewhere did not. Lee was a supporter of the idea but didn’t come out publicly until early 1865. After that, more jumped on the bandwagon believing that independence was the main objective of the war and thus more important than preserving slavery. Eventually the South began emancipating their slaves in much larger numbers in February/March 1865 than what they had done before, but by then war was lost.
For the day and weapons used, that wasn’t all that bad of a strategy.
Yes, there were going to be plenty of casualties, but it could have worked.
The plan for D-Day included losses of thousands of men, the rehearsal alone killed nearly 1,000 men!
But today, if our men in Afghanistan or Iraq (under Obama’s ROE) got behind set weapons and al Qaeda fighters could not engage them, our men would have to not fight, but wait until al Qaeda got their weapons turned around!
Simply astonishing!
This version of the quote is attributed to Emiliano Zapata, Commander of the Revolutionary Southern Forces.
Prefiero morir de pie que vivir de rodillas.
I rather die on my feet than live upon my knees.
@Joseph P. Martino:
@another vet:
I am a proud direct descent (paternal) 13th generation South Carolinian male with a clear sympathy/empathy for THIS side in THAT war. However I would like to make clear that in this case, I am referring to the implications of current American leadership being totally bereft of ANY of the traditional qualities of inspired leaders by referencing, without prejudice, other men from our history who kept their grace.
In a short comment about the Battle of Franklin situation and above comments (but on point and appropriate to us, now) , I would like to point that the commanding general, John Bell Hood, was a very brave man himself and an effective small to medium unit commander. He, however, is not treated by great adulation from most historians since he became an 1860’s illustration of that popular 1980s theory, “The Peter Principle” — in any organization, long term employees are promoted to the point where they can no longer handle the demands of their job! I would suggest that this is stunningly apparent in the record of the community organizer that was elected POTUS by people who saw him as (in the words of Barbara Walters) the Messiah.
May God/Allah/Baal/quantum physics/Satan/L Ron Hubbard (whoever you worship) have mercy on us.
Dink Newcomb
HI, THANK YOU FOR THIS HISTORIC FACT,OF WAR,
WHICH OBAMA DID NOT READ FOR SURE,
HE WOULD NOT HAVE SO MANY DEATH AND LIMBS MISSING ON THE SURVIVORS,
I thought that the GENERAL gave a counter command to his
GENERAL, after being told against it,
Patrick R Cleburne, was very disapointed of the command and was depress about having to follow an order
which he saw very wrong and to bring more casualtys to his brave soldiers,
his self discipline made him accept the order of his high command ,and he knew to be wrong,
AND KILLED BECAUSE OF HIS COMMANDER STUPID ORDER,
THAT IS SAD AND THIS WEEK STORY,THAT, ONE MARINE PUT HIS RANK ON THE LINE TO WARN OF THE DANGERS WHICH KILLED 3 OTHER MARINES, BECAUSE THE COMMANDER DID NOT FOLLOW UP HIS WARNING,
THE MARINE WAS LET GO BUT THEY GAVE HIM AN HONORABLE DISCHARGE,
HE IS YOUNG AND WOULD HAVE WANT TO STAY ON THE WARZONE, THE STORY CAME THIS WEEK ON FOX
YES WATH A SAD STORY SIMILAR AND ON TOP OF THEIR REGULATIONS FROM A COMMANDER
WHO HAS NEVER SERVE, WANT THEM NOT TO SHOOT IF THEY PUT THEIR WEAPON DOWN,
HE HAS MORE SOLDIERS DEAD THAN ANY OTHER WAR,
HE SURELY TOLD THE ENEMY OF IT TO REASSURE THEM, BECAUSE THEY DO IT WHEN CAUGHT,
WHAT A LOST OF GOOD BRAVES THE BEST ASSET OF AMERICA, NOW SOME MISSING LIMBS FIGHTING THEIR OWN WAR TO SURVIVE BEING SHORT CHANGE
OF THEIR OWN MONEY, SO TO GET THE LEADER SPEND IT SITING ON HIS ASS,
BYE
@ilovebeeswarzone:
Hey Bees,
I apologize but I am a little confused with what you are asking. There are too many Generals of different ranks in this story who are mostly referred to, by convention, as ‘General” and it is confusing.
Confederate General’s ranks were identical with the current and modern US Army up to full general:
Brigadier general- currently, 1 star
Major general- currently, 2 stars
Lieutenant general- currently, 3 stars
General (Full general)- currently, 4 stars
General-in-Chief (Robert E Lee and several others)- currently 5 stars– roughly equivalent to the General of the Army created in the US Army for Dwight Eisenhower when he was SHAFE (Supreme Commander Allied Forces in Europe) during WWII to ensure that he outranked, without question, ALL other officers in the American and Allied militaries. Officer’s rank gives superiority to the man who received the rank first, even if it was only 5 min previous.
At the battle of Franklin, Cleburne was a Major General and was subordinate to (Full) General Hood.
Hood’s career was similar to that of Custer in how revered he was as a brash younger officer and how quickly he rose through the ranks. He resigned his commission in the US Army at the beginning of the war (Apr 1861) to become a captain in CSA but by spring of 1864 he had become a full General. The aggressive attack at all costs attitude which served him well when being in control of rapid smaller units did not serve well when running a much larger force with its remoteness from the action, poor 1860s communications and the ponderous movements of an entire army which hindered response time. His tactics failed him in the larger arena.
His career did not end quite so dismally as that of Custer but the greater responsibilities of the Tennessee Campaign was a disaster for Hood and he was relieved of his rank (at his own request) to fall back to Lt General after the also disastrous Battle of Nashville in 1865. A humiliating end for a brave, inspired man but a fate he chose WITH HONOR AND IN THE BEST INTEREST OF HIS COUNTRY. HINT, HINT, YOU HEAR THAT JUGHEAD?
The account I related and the one I quoted are no different from what I have previously understood occurred.
@Dink Newcomb:
Agreed. Obama goes against every single leadership principle I was ever taught or taught. Blaming others. Taking credit for others’ hard work. Publicly whining about how hard the job is etc, etc, etc.
Dink Newcomb
THANK YOU, it’s very interesting to read you,
Ididn’t MEAN to confuse you, with my understanding of that GENERAL WHO I THOUGHT HAD CAUSE THE DEATH OF MANY SOLDIERS, BY NOT LISTEN TO THE ONE UNDER HIS RANK TELLING HIM THAT HIS PLAN WOULD NOT BE GOOD,
and it turn out to give them proof of their claim, by being killed in combat,
i gave the similarity on this week news on the MARINE WARNING THE COMMANDER WHO
DID NOT LISTEN AND CAUSE THE DEATH OF 3 MARINES, it look so much alike the first one with strangely 3 CENTURY APART,
bye
another vet
NICE TO HAVE YOU HERE,
about the MILITARY IN A WAR ZONE, I was trying to say to DINK NEWCOMB,
that any commander usualy has in mind the survival of his troop and give them all the rights
at their service to fight the WAR AND COME BACK ALIVE IN ONE PIECE, THEY HAVE MASTER THE DANGER PERCEIVING GUTS FEELING BETTER THAN ANY OTHER CIVILIEN, AND BUGGING THEM IS DISTURBING IT
NOW IS NOT THE CASE, AND TO GIVE THE WARRIOR RESTRICTION IS TO CONFUSE THEIR INNER PERCEPTION OF DANGER, THEY HAVE TO BE WITHOUT THOSE RESTRICTIONS, AND FREE TO WAGE THE WAR,
OBAMA FAVOR MORE ON TO THE ENEMY LIFE SAVING,
AS OPOSE TO GIVE THAT FREEDOM TO THE TROOPS, HE EVEN CUT THEIR URGE TO SEE THEIR CHAPLAIN
REDUCE, AND GAVE THEM RESTRICTION ON HOW TO PRAY WITHOUT SHOWING IT,
AND SEND ATHEIST IN THERE TO REPLACE A CHAPLAIN WHO SAID HE WOULD DO IT FOR FREE,
THIS TELL ALL WE WANT TO KNOW, IT’S MORE THAN STUPID, IT’EVIL AND MORE EVIL IF APPLYED TO THE WARRIORS IN A LINE OF FIRE, THEY DO BAN CHRISTIANITY, IN SCHOOL AND IN PUBLIC, FOR CHRISMAS, WITH THEIR EXCUSE OF NOT OFFEND BUT THEY OFFEND THE CHRISTIANS OF AMERICA TOO TOLERANT TO RISE UP TO THOSE NEW LAWS FROM HELL, AND THE CHRISTIANS WHERE HERE FIRST FOR CENTURY, THEY DISERVE THEIR NUMBER ONE RANK IN THE ROW OBAMA SET UP IN THIS COUNTRY,
THE NEW DIVIDE NOW IS THE YOUNG HE TARGET TO PAY FOR HIS OBAMACARE,
BYE
Dink, what is your opinion of James Longstreet?
WHEN THE GOOD PEOPLE ARE REDUCE TO INCREASE THE RHETORIC
LIKE THE DUCK CHIEF OF A BIG FAMILY,
IT GIVE THE SIGN THAT THE PEOPLE LIKE HIM HAVE THEIR FILL OF THE RESTRICTIONS
BY OBAMA REGIME, AND IT’S BEGINING TO NOT BEING ABLE TO COUNTAIN THE ANGER,
THAT’S A SIGN TO KNOW TO GET OF THEIR BACK ,
@ilovebeeswarzone:
I understand now and I agree about the similarity of the incidents. The only real difference is that Cleburne died on that battlefield with honor while the Marine is left with nothing but bewilderment and a long fight against being destroyed by bitterness.
From what I remember of the military, YOU MUST NEVER QUESTION A SUPERIOR and especially if you are right many will do what they can to destroy you for the temerity of accusing them of malfeasance. With impunity. The sad truth is that the marine in question has had his career destroyed and as much of his reputation as they could throw on the trash pile with it. Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose (this very appropriate quote was chosen especially for you, Bees).
A mid 50s Stanley Kubrick film titled “Paths of Glory” starring Kirk Douglas addresses this insanity well. The short version- French army, WWI, suicidal attack on the German lines ends in catastrophe! The commanders select 3-4 INNOCENT soldiers to be executed for cowardice to cover their own stupidity. Col ?? (Douglas) tries to get his men off the hook and the intrigue gets even worse while the men still die at their COMPATRIOTS hand.
An excellent movie and highly recommended by me. Watch it if you get a chance, Douglas is great as usual.
@retire05:
I think Longstreet was a great commander. AND, I also think Hood and Custer were heroic men and good leaders until they slammed into the wall of their limitations going full tilt
AND, I think Lee was often blinded by the task at hand and failed to heed his trusted (normally) commanders. Re: Gettysburg. But, he was a man of immense honor and courage who often hated what he had to do.
My most revered confederate general is perhaps Nathan Bedford Forrest for his whole mixed bag of moral pendulum swings through the uneven terrain of his life. Now, there is a man who was no stranger to accolades AND vilification.
There are all sorts of stories assigning the blame for the moral fall of the US on many different things but In My Not So Humble Opinion, the largest cause is the loss of identity in the tribe. Humans have not emotionally kept pace with the burgeoning population and its attendant isolation and we are too mobile in this day of wandering from place to place to be stabile. We no longer have a fixed place in reality for an index to cling to– our homes change, our partners and families are often uncomfortably dynamic and understandably, our sense of accountability changes. Most people’s lives in the Twentieth First Century are no more significant and satisfying than watching endless episodes of “Real Housewives of New Jersey”. Even the village idiot in a long ago small, isolated community had the security of being part of the clan– when was the last time that most of you felt like you were part of anything but a SWARM? Religion serves some of us (like the Robertsons) well as a life raft but it is teetering on the brink of irrelevance to many in the world.
@another vet:
From your alias, I would suspect that you have an opinion on what I said in reply to Bees
Those were different experiences in a different time and place, wherever you were, whenever you were there, weren’t they? My own brush with that was at the SE Asia Campus of The Cosmic School of Hard Knocks.
Say your piece, I (at the least) would like to hear it.
Dink Newcomb
yes about not belonging to a big community,
unless we follow politics, we take the side we”r familiar, we identify with,
that to me is getting involve,with the nation’s problems,
HERE AT FLOPPING ACES WE ARE SERVED THE MEAL AND DESERT AND COFFEE,
TO KEEP US OCCUPY, here we have the freedom of choice of which one subject we like to be a part of,
IT IS A COMITMENT, A CYBER COMMITMENT, BUT IT HAS VALUE, I HOPE to think so,
YES TO THE COURAGE OF THOSE MILITARY, WE FORGET TO THINK THAT IT TAKE A SPECIAL PERSON TO ENLIST AND MAKE A CAREER OF IT, OR AND TO CONTRIBUTE TO KEEP THE STANDING OF FREEDOM IN AMERICA AND THE WORLD,
IT IS VERY COSTLY IN BRAVES AND COST, THIS MILITARY
IS THE BEST IN THE WORLD IN CLASS AND TRAINING AND TOLERANCE, TOO MUCH TO MY VIEW FOR TOLERANCE,
THEY DON’T NEED ANY LECTURE BY THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF FOR SURE, THEY ARE BRIGHT AND COULD RUN THIS AMERICA FROM DAY ONE,
IT SEEMS TO ME THAT WITH ALL THE TECKNOLOGY OF TODAY
IT SHOULD HAVE SHORTEN THE TIME OF WAR, AND DEATH AND DISABILITY,
NOT SO IT EVEN LONGER TO GET OUT OF THE WAR, AND MORE DEATH AND MORE DISTURBING DISABILITY, AND NO GLORY ANYMORE AT THE END TO CLAIM RIGHTFULLY
IT SEEMS THAT IT’S DONE ON PURPOSE BY THIS COMMANDER,
BYE
Encountering those who harbor negative views about those of mixed race was probably a continuing trial of character that hasn’t entirely ended, even at this point.
Greg
EVERY ONE HAS A CROSS TO HOLD, HE HAD IS OWN AND IT DOESN’T EXCUSE A BEHAVIOR NOT COMPATIBLE TO THIS AMERICA, JUST BECAUSE HE ENCOUNTERED NEGATIVE FROM OTHER,
IF ONE CANNOT COPE WITH HIS DEMONS, HOW CAN A SO TOLERANT PEOPLE CAN GIVE A HUGE POWER
OF DECISIONS TO CHANGE A WHOLE COUNTRY, AND NOT SEE THE DOWNWARD SLOPE SHE IS GOING ,
BEFORE HE REALIZE THAT HE IS DOING VERY WRONG AND HIM CHANGE INSTEAD OF THE COUNTRY
HE IS DESTROYING,
@ilovebeeswarzone: This country has become way too politically correct. Unfortunately, it has weeded its way into the military as well. I’m glad to be retired. Most commanders do have the best interests of their troops at heart. Unfortunately, there are also some bad ones out there who have their next promotion as their priority.
@Greg: #17
You need to tighten up your grip a little there son. I was alluding to POTUS campaigning for and attaining office largely through the fact that he was a negro despite having NO street cred. Everything I have seen or read about his youth indicates that he was mostly shielded from the negative aspects of his being part black and accepted easily into the typically white schools he attended, especially in race tolerant Hawaii (in the 60s-70s, anyway). He never lived anywhere in a negro community and never developed that mindset. I, on the other hand, live in the rural south which was physically integrated long before the civil rights era in a personal, sometimes hostile, sometimes symbiotic mix which admittedly existed in an atmosphere of cultural intolerance. I have been around African Americans most of my life and I have almost always had some personal exchange with them. Those people from that environment WERE different with different defenses, different strengths and different weaknesses. One of the big topics I remember blacks discussing when Obama started running was his perceived faux blackness. No, I doubt that that boy suffered because of his mixed-race a great deal more than any kid suffers from just growing up and he apparently was not a pariah but had the friends necessary to push any of the myriad grade school cruelties away
another vet
I heard he let go 5 of them this year, NOT SO LONG AGO,
BYE
@Dink Newcomb: Questioning superiors and sticking up for troops is probably what earned me my second tour in Iraq. They probably thought they were screwing me but I wanted to do one more tour before retiring so they actually did me a favor. In my particular situation, as a First Sergeant I called out a full time major at our Reserve unit who was a crony of the colonel on what I believed was a clear cut case of racism as did a number of other senior NCO’s and officers, most of whom were also white and of conservative political persuasion meaning we aren’t talking about lefties playing the race card. This prompted an EO investigation. To make a long story short, one of my Senior NCO’s (who was subsequently accused of felony theft by the colonel which was total bullshit) filed a Congressional complaint on a host of issues that were going on, one of which was the race issue. His congressman had him talk via speaker phone in his office to a U.S. senator about the race issue. The senator became very irate, especially when he heard the ‘N’ bomb was dropped, and vowed to take personal charge of the complaint to see to it that the parties were held responsible. In the end, the major was promoted to Lt. Colonel and the colonel was promoted to general. The ironic part of all this is that as President, the senator would have signed the colonel’s promotion orders to general. Care to guess what former Illinois senator I’m referring to?
THOSE 4 BLACK CRIMINAL HAVE BEEN CAUGHT NOW,
one shot a young man who refuse to give him his car, he was shot in the head,
it was said he was helping his wife,
those four, should be lynch by the other prisoners and hang in their cell,
for what they done to that couple,
in the old time it would have been already done,
@another vet: #22
Let me start by thanking you for your service. I always try to do that in case you have been missed by mistake. I saw an old black guy the other day with a NEW (probably post-Obama shutdown idiocy) WWII veteran baseball cap. I stopped him and shook is hand while thanking him to his pleasure. He had served in the Army in New Guinea.
Thanks also for the story. I appreciate the time it took to relate and I also appreciate and understand those feelings of biting your tongue and clenching your fists although my own sad experiences were generally lesser in scope and of shorter duration.
I was an enlisted man and quickly discovered the minefield of politics in the ranks. I was in the Navy and never had a field combat experience but I was an Aviation Ordnanceman aboard a carrier that spent much time on the line– Yankee Station in the Tonkin Gulf during the Viet Nam War. We were not shot at with small arms or shelled but I was lead PO in bomb buildup during the cruises of ’68, ’69, ’70. I am here to tell you that we earned our keep and when you work with ordnance only an idiot gets complacent, wherever you are. Several times, especially during our support of the grunts in Khe Sanh, we worked constantly for our twelve hour shift (twelve on, twelve off on the line), supplying the busy birds on the roof with enormous quantities of bombs. We were so busy that they brought us sack lunches which we ate while working. Not looking for any praise or recognition, just establishing that it wasn’t like being a mambo instructor on Carnival Cruise lines.
We worked hard and we did our jobs well and when we were called on to push hard, like Khe Sanh, we knew why were having to grind and did it willingly, even with a sense of urgency. YET, we got very little encouragement from those above. We all knew where we stood with the various non-coms and officers we answered to and which ones to approach in what circumstances. I had enlisted for four years and I liked being at sea but everyone was so polarized in the services then (like now in civilian life) and many situations quickly became “us” against “them”. I got out because in an untypical flash of wisdom I saw trouble gathering for me in the future if I stayed.
Instead, I got out and swore no more: hair cuts, shaving, wearing a tie, standing in line (for anything, especially chow or getting paid), saluting, beenie weenies for breakfast or s**t in a seabag (stuffed peppers) for supper, sleeping 1.5′ from a grown man while 1.5′ below another and at the feet of yet another, or most especially calling anyone I did not respect sir. I would be different if I stayed in because I have an errant tongue that often got me in trouble even on the outside but if I had thought I had a chance, I would have stayed
Your story reminds me a lot of a comment I made above. It was about a Stanley Kubrick movie from the 50s with Kirk Douglas- “Paths of Glory”. It was WWI, the french army and they had similar politics (over a more dire situation in a combat unit) and results. I recommend it highly and suggest you Google it for a detailed synopsis which I am sure will make you want to see it.
And that Illinois congressman- his initials wouldn’t be BHO-U-SOB-U, would they?
Dink
I’m glad you found this blog, and I hope you stick around.
I’ve been an infrequent commenter, and a very frequent reader, for nigh on a decade now.
These are good folks at FA. I read them for their knowledge and insight, and — from what I can tell — you have those gifts in spades. Like many here.
@another vet:
Don’t forget “quibbling”….another character flaw of the Won.
Taqiyyologist
AND IT’S NICE TO HAVE YOU HERE,
you had great comments also,
AND YOU WHERE AWAY TOO LONG,
best to you,
Dink Newcomb
yes I did saw that movie< and KURT DOUGLAS IS A SUPER ACTOR,
IN IT AND MANY OTHER MOVIE I’m glad that you mentioned it, because I won’t mind looking at it again,
if I can get it,
YES, PATHS OF GLORY.
BYE
@Taqiyyologist: #25
Thanks Taq. I have been in and out of this site for 3 years or so and I am not in the best of health which frequently leaves me feeling so poorly that I can’t muster enough cooperative braincells to make comments of any value. Lately, though, I have been on a tear and when I get started I suffer from logorrhea (excessive and often incoherent talkativeness or wordiness– damn, I love the English language and I love words– I just found that one ), firing off long rants.
You are correct, the people here are excellent with perception far beyond the limitations of mine in many subjects.
I found this place through a link to a post here about a lecture in Europe on global warming. I did not then and I still do not believe that the conclusions of the critical scientist\lecturer in that post were valid though I have found numerous other proofs of egregious warming science since. I saw no fault with finding an article I disagreed with because I do not want to always uptake stuff that agrees with me. I liked this place immediately with its cordiality and intelligence. I read and learn far more than I comment.
@ilovebeeswarzone: #28
That’s cool Bees, its one of my favorite movies too. There is another great, similar movie called “Breaker Morant” about some Australian soldiers set to be executed for war crimes by the Brits during the Boer War.
Dink Newcomb
thank you for that one too,
YOU’RE THE BEST,
BEST TO YOU,
@Dink Newcomb: The bottom line is that you served. As for the politics, that goes wherever you go- military or civilian. I’ve never had use for either. There is also no need to feel as though you didn’t your part simply because you weren’t “in the the shit”. Most, including those who were part of the “Greatest Generation”, did not actually see combat whereby they fired their weapons at the enemy for self preservation. And that is not to negate the sacrifices made by the WWII Vets. They were light years ahead of today’s youth as far as dedication to this country goes just as those who volunteered after 9/11 were. As I’ve stated on this site numerous times, to me the brave young souls who enlisted after 9/11 and made the subsequent sacrifices are the true heroes because they didn’t have to be drafted to do so.
@doc: If we listed his flaws, we’d be here for days!
Every time we complain about the stupid, bone headed decisions of the managers we encounter we should thank our lucky starts we are not in the military where the same bone headed decision get people killed.
Then we should ponder the fate of politicians who cut the retirement benefits of veterans, then we should make that fate come to pass.
JUSTAl
YES, IF ONLY THE PEOPLE COULD RECLAIM THEIR POWER OF CHANGING THOSE LAWS,
AS SOON AS THEY ARE VOTED ON,THE PEOPLE SHOULD STUDY WHAT THE FRAMERS
GAVE THEM WITH THE CONSTITUTION, AND LEARN WHAT IS FOR THEM TO DO,
THEY MIGHT BE SURPRISED OF THE POWER ALLOCATED TO THEM,
AND MAKE IT A PRIORITY TO SETTLE IT,
BEFORE ANY OTHER CHORE,
ONE WHO USED IT IS TED CRUZ, HE WAS NOT LISTEN TO,
BUT IT STARTED A MOVEMENT WHICH IS GROWING AND UNSTOPEBLE NOW, HE WAS VILLIFYED BUT HE HIT THE SENSITIVE CORD, RIGHT IN THE SENSITIVE CORE,
Thanks for this wonderful piece on a favorite CW Officer….Cleburne was also quite a brilliant man & leader. I read where his support of freeing the slaves to fight was a reason he did not advance beyond Major General??
HEY, MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL THE BLOGGERS,
@westie: #36
I am not sure that I have ever heard that specifically but emancipation was not a popular solution. You should recall that the south lived in fear of slave insurrection and the countryside had abundant night riders whose job was to circulate around the plantations to prevent slaves from escaping or going out at night to have clandestine meetings planning revolt. This bred huge uneasiness among the slave owners– somewhere, Shakespeare said “Uneasy lies the head that wears the crown”. The guy in charge is always on the hot seat and always vulnerable to attack. Ask any despot like Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, or even Obama. How many good night’s sleep do you think Jughead gets with his awareness of all the rifle toting good ol’ boys out there who can bag a prairie dog at 500 yards without breaking a sweat!
On the other hand, there were slaves who accompanied their masters into the war, so of whom who went on the PROMISE of being freed. Slaves were conditioned to be dependent and dependable. Here in SC, the rice plantations were generally not the grand places conjured up by Tara in “Gone With the Wind”. They were generally small holdings managed for an absentee owner who lived in Charleston, maybe, and made an inspection circuit among his plantations periodically to check on the management of the overseer who was not infrequently, a trusted slave. The high ground cotton and indigo plantations were typically larger and the owners often maintained a house on the larger places even if they did not live there all the time. On the coast, the plantations were usually smaller on average than those inland.
Slavery left attitudes that were very persistent. Most slaves had never had to provide for themselves and found emancipation difficult. In fact, I once read a book that was a written in some FDR administration depression project where people went around and interviewed the dwindling number of authentic emancipated slaves for compilation of their stories in a true record of the times. I will never forget the attitudes of more than one of these survivors, who in the midst of the privations of The Great Depression, looked back on the “golden days” of their youth when they did not have a struggle to provide the basic necessities of life because the master took care to see them fed and housed adequately– as he probably did with all of his stock; cows, horses, pigs, chickens AND humans. Their insensibility of this facet of the freedom from want was certainly a distortion of many years, nevertheless, not all slaves lived in the incessant brutal hell Hollywood and Al Sharpton would have us believe. Masters could be kindly, Christian men but even then, there were thugs everywhere who were willing to step in and restore control to a group of “impertinent” slaves isolating the master from the dirty work. Most plantations stayed reasonably calm. Look at the people now who voted for O’b and are complacent about the IRS scandal and Government spying. Just accept the status quo and don’t make waves and it might last forever.
Dink Newcomb,
put a great grand son of that time, being bought HALF DEAD, from the ARABS” slaves market coming FROM AFRICA
with a boat load OF STOLEN FROM THEIR WIVES AND CHILDREN HUNTED BY THOSE ARABS,
WHICH HAD THE SAME BUSINESS , UNCHANGED , SINCE THE TIME OF THE PROPHETS ,
WHO SHOULD THOSE BLACKS WORKER BE WANTING REVENGE FROM? WOULDN’T IT BE THE ARABS? AS OPOSE TO THE WHITES AMERICANS WHO MADE THEM AMERICAN , BY BYING THEM
FROM THOSE ARABS, THE NAME OF SLAVES AT THAT TIME KEPT ON, BECAUSE THE MEANING OF SLAVE WAS NOT KNOWN, IT WAS THEIR ONLY NAME, AS A GROUP, LIKE ANY OTHER NAMES OF ANY OTHER GROUP,
THEY RAISE THEIR FAMILY AND IT TOOK JUST THE VINDICTIVES OF THEM WHO HAD NOT
ANY SKILLS TO FIND WORK, AND ONLY SEEKING REVENGE FOR BEING LEFT BEHIND AND POOR,
THOSE HAVE TO TODAY SPREAD HATE TO THEIR FAMILY AND TO CARRY THE HATE TO TODAY’S GREAT GRAND CHILDREN HAVING BEEN BRAINWASH BY HATEFULL STORY,BUT THEY FAILED TO VINDICATES THE ARABS, AND TURNED THEIR HATE TO AMERICAN INSTEAD,
THAT’S WHERE YOU FIND THE ELECTED BLACK STILL MAKING SURE TO HANDLE THEIR LOYALS,
AS WELL AS REVERENT WRIGHT IN HIS CHURCH,
THEN YOU SEE A ONE OF THEIR OWN BEING PUSH IN POWER,
CAN YOU SEPARATE HIM FROM THE OTHER, WHEN HE TALK REVENGE, OR PENALTY, OR PUNISHMENT, IT COME FROM HIS CORE, AND MADE HIM WHAT WE SEE NOW, AN ANGRY LEADER,
SEEKING TO EMPOWER THE PEOPLE, WITH HIS 2 THOUSANDS PAGES BOOK OF REGULATIONS,
SENDING MINIONS OF HIS YOUNG TROOP ALL OVER THE UNITED STATES OF A PEACEFULL AMERICA,
TO SEEK PUNISHMENT FOR HAVING NOT FOLLOW ONE OR MORE OF HIS RULES, IN THEIR LIVES,
OR THEIR PROPERTY, OR LIVESTOCKS, OR LAND FILL, OR WATERWAY, OR, OR, OR,
AND IT WILL COST A PENALTY OF LOTS OF MONEY,TO HAVE DONE IT, EVEN THAT THE PEOPLE NEVER READ THE DEM BOOK, WITH ONE IN POWER IS THE DESTRUCTION OF AMERICA, PUT PEOPLE AGAINST PEOPLE , BLACKS against WHITES
POOR AGAINST RICH, YOUNG AGAINST OLDER, PARENTS AGAINST TEACHER FOLLOWING OBAMA PROBAGANDA, ALONG WITH MEDIAS BEING PAID TO HAVE TINGLE
IN THEIR LEG OVER OBAMA,
A REAL DEMOLISHING JOBS, ON ALL FRONTS, ON ALL SIDES IN ALL LIVES ,
OF THIS TOLERANT PEOPLE
@Dink Newcomb: #5
I don’t disagree, just want to amplify. The Peter Principle is basically that persons get promoted one level above their ability to perform their duties. In the case of Obama, he is infinitely many levels above his ability. If the Peter Principle had been working in his case, he would be frozen in the community organizer job, which is at least one level above his ability. Has anyone read about his achievements as Community Organizer? No, because he had none. Every project he attempted to organize fell flat. Not a single one succeeded.
@Greg: 17
Nope, no character there to ‘trial’.
@another vet: 32
I agree. I also served on an Aircraft carrier, the USS Forrestal. It was during peace time. It so happens that the 4 years I was in was one of the only periods of 4 years that no serious military actions have taken place. No one knows what the future holds for the next 4 years when they enlist. Everyone takes their chances. I didn’t enlist when I did to be in action or to NOT be in action. Only to serve my country because I thought it was the highest honor. I wish/hope that everyone that serves, feels that way. I’m still proud I served.
Redteam
I SEE THE MILITARY AS A GIGANTIC BUNDLE OF ELECTRIC WIRES INTERTWINE TO
MAKE ONE SMALLER BUNDLE, WHICH EACH HAS A COVER WHERE UNDER THERE IS MINUTE OTHER WIRES MINI BUNDLES,,
EACH BUNDLE HAS A SPECIAL LINK WITH EACH OTHER, BUT TAKE OUT ONE EVEN THE MINUTE ONE AND ALL THE TOP BUNDLE STOP ENERGIZING,
AND COLLAPSE ALL THE OTHER MINI BUNDLES, AND LOOSE
THE BRIGHT LIGHT, A DEADLY DOMINO EFFECT,FOR THE MILITARY
@Redteam: #40
You are technically correct, but remember, this charmed fool never had to struggle through the the long staircase of advancement! Through the magic of figurative affirmative action, he just started, then got bumped into the stratosphere. If he had been through the grind, he would probably know more about life.
@ilovebeeswarzone: #43
Great analogy Bees. The military is so big that its tough to get your mind wrapped around everything that is going on in places where you can’t see. That’s why Eisenhower made a decent president– imagine bearing the responsibility for the Normandy invasion?
Obama is a poor bumbler who despite 4 years of teflon coating, recently can’t even get ANY respect in his fumbles. To go back to the Civil War analogies, I think JEB Stuart’s locating and capturing of Union General Pope’s headquarters at Catlett’s Station was a situation where a vital man came away personally better than if he had greatly succeeded. He missed his main goal (burning a bridge in part of a harassing attempt to drive Pope away) but overwhelmed the absent Pope’s incautious men, seizing the General’s records, copious supplies and especially Pope’s finest dress uniform. The raid was not a great success but the humiliation Stuart thrust into Pope’s face resounded with the public throughout the south enhancing Stuart’s rep and providing a welcome spiritual lift. 1860s psy-ops, I guess. Poor Obama, he seems far too dull witted and plodding to understand how to quickly whirl on his heel and potently attack from a different direction with the confident surety of experience, not political BS learned from books.
Dink Newcomb
THIS YOU MENTION ABOVE MUST BE IN THE 1800 AM I RIGHT?
DO YOU KNOW OF THE BRITISH TAKING OVER THE WHITE HOUSE IN THE LATE 1814
THE PRESIDENT LEFT IN A HURRY WITH HIS WIFE, AND THE CANADIANS LEFT AFTER A FEW DAYS,
IN THOSE TIMES THE CANADIANS WHERE MOSTLY FROM BRITAIN, AND THE FRENCH ON THE EASTERN PART WHERE FRIENDS WITH THE INDIANS WHO HELP THEM FIGHT THE BRITISH, THE ONLY PLACE THE
BRITISH KEPT WAS THE VERY EAST PART OF CANADA, NEW FOUNDLAND , IS ONE OF THEM,
THE FIERCE SOLDIERS THERE ARE WELL KNOWN FOR THEIR BRAVERY IN THE WARS SIDING WITH THE ENGLAND SOLDIERS, AND WINIPEG SCOTTISH SOLDIERS IN THE WINIPEG PROVINCE,
THE FRENCH OF QUEBEC HAVE FOUGHT WITH BIG LOST OF LIVES IN THE WAR, THEY ALSO WHERE SUPER BRAVES TO ADVANCE WAY DEEP IN ENEMY GROUND, GERMANY,
I BELIEVE THEY WITH WHAT THEY HAD OF WEAPONS,
WON THEIR WAR, AS OPOSE TO NOW HERE, NO ONE HAS BEEN GLORIFYED FOR WINING THE IRAK WAR AND THE AFGHANISTAN WAR, WHICH OBAMA DON’T EVEN CALL IT A WAR, WHILE SO MANY AMERICAN SOLDIERS DIED IN THESES LAST YEARS AND STILL DIYNG TODAY AS WE SPEAK,
WITH THE MIGHTYER WEAPON OF TODAY, IS A LOT OF QUESTION MARKS TO THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF LEADING THIS WAR,
AND WITH SO MANY CRIPPELD SOLDIERS BACK IN TRYING TO LIVE THEIR LIVES NORMAL, IT’S UNDESCRIBEBLE THE COURAGE OF THOSE SURVIVORS, AND THEIR HIGH SPIRIT, SHOULD BE
TOLD, TO OTHER CIVILIANS WHO LOST CARING FOR OTHERS,
THEY LOOK SO WEAK COMPARE TO THE MILITARY, AND
MENTALY CHALLENGE SO TO SEE WHO THEY FOLLOW TO BE
LEADING THEM ,IN THE COUNTRY IS AS BAD AS LEADING IN WARZONE, VERY SIMILAR, AND SOLDIERS DIED BECAUSE OF IT,
AND SOLDIERS WENT TO PRISON BECAUSE OF IT,
WHAT A TRAGEDY,
Dink Newcomb
you mention JEB STUART, ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH AMERICAN COMMANDER PHILIP STUART WAS IN THAT ROLE
IN THE TAKE OVER OF THE WHITE HOUSE BY THE BRITISH,
I SAID CANADIAN BUT THEY CAME FROM BRITAIN COMMANDER ROBERT ROSS,
BECAUSE THE AMERICANS WHERE ATTACKING THE CITIZENS AT THE BORDER OF CANADA, AND IN 1812 WAR,
THEY CALL IT A N AMERICAN CAMPAIGN AGAINST CANADA, SO THE BRITISH COMMAND ORDER
TO BURN THE WASHINGTON WHITE HOUSE AND CAPITOL AND OTHER GOVERNMENT FACILITY
IN 1814 AFTER THE BATTLE OF BLATTENBURG WON BY THE BRITISH,
BUT TO PRESERVE THE LIVES OF AMERICANS LIVING THERE, YES 1814
BYE I DID GOOGLE THIS ONE I SAW IT BEFORE, BUT IT’S THE BRITISH WHO HAD CANADA WEST AND NEVER COULD OWN QUEBEC FRENCHS, AS THEY TRY HARD, ALTHOW QUEBEC IS PART OF CANADA, THEY REMAIN FRENCH SPEAKING, THEY FOUGHT TO KEEP THEIR LANGUAGE, AND WON,
AND CANADA IS NOT OWN BY THE BRITISH ANYMORE,
ONLY FOLLOW THE PROTOCOLE BY POLITNESS,
BUT BRITAIN HOLD SOME LAND FOR THE INDIANS,
THEY CALL IT CROWN LANDS,
ONE OF THE INDIAN TRIBES HAS CALL ON BRITAIN TO GIVE BACK THEIR OWNERSHIP OF HIS LAND,BECAUSE HE WANT TO KEEP IT FREE OF EXPLOITATION, AND KEEP IT PURE AND CLEAN WITH THE ANIMALS FREE AND HEALTHY,
BYE
FOX NEWS CHRISTMAS SHOW IS SUPER,
THANK YOU FOX YOYRE THE BEST.
@ilovebeeswarzone: Good analysis, bees
@Dink Newcomb: and would likely still be a community organizer.