The National Security Agency has broken privacy rules or overstepped its legal authority thousands of times each year since Congress granted the agency broad new powers in 2008, according to an internal audit and other top-secret documents.
Most of the infractions involve unauthorized surveillance of Americans or foreign intelligence targets in the United States, both of which are restricted by law and executive order. They range from significant violations of law to typographical errors that resulted in unintended interception of U.S. e-mails and telephone calls.
The documents, provided earlier this summer to The Washington Post by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden, include a level of detail and analysis that is not routinely shared with Congress or the special court that oversees surveillance. In one of the documents, agency personnel are instructed to remove details and substitute more generic language in reports to the Justice Department and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence.
In one instance, the NSA decided that it need not report the unintended surveillance of Americans. A notable example in 2008 was the interception of a “large number” of calls placed from Washington when a programming error confused U.S. area code 202 for 20, the international dialing code for Egypt, according to a “quality assurance” review that was not distributed to the NSA’s oversight staff.
In another case, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which has authority over some NSA operations, did not learn about a new collection method until it had been in operation for many months. The court ruled it unconstitutional.
I’m sure Obama will pull himself away from his golf game anytime now to tell us no one need worry….we’re all in good hands.
See author page
The democratic process has been irrevocably damaged. With Obama in control of the IRSS and the NSA it’s hard to imagine how the GOP can win any election hereon.
@DrJohn: It gets worse. Read this:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/08/03/16-reasons-why-hillary-clinton-will-win-2016.html
When I heard people say Hillary is going to run/win (some who post at this site), I thought they were crazy. After reading that article, I’m concerned. Has the WH and electoral process been completely undermine?
We’ll see.
I agree with both of you, and I don’t know what it’s gonna take to fix it; in any case it won’t be pretty.
What don’t people get about the sentence, “Most were unintended?”
Greg wrote: What don’t people get about the sentence, “Most were unintended?”
And that makes it okay with you? And I’m not convinced they were unintended, from personal experience.
Obama wants to claim he’s instigated ”reforms, ” so we should just get over it.
In fact, Obama wants us to simply ignore the reality and somehow ”have confidence,” in the NSA.
How stupid were his low information voters that he thinks we all must be so dumb?
We’ve already seen Obama’s willingness to use sealed information illegally just to get elected.
He did it in Ill.
Poor Seven Of Nine.
But when a minute percentage of Americans are involved in terrorism, there is no cover in the Patriot Act or anywhere else to collect and store so much data on all the rest of us.
I recall when Bush was president that people were irate over the idea that libraries might tell the feds what books we checked out.
This is so much worse than that.
Look at all the early retirements, resignations and firings of Admirals and Generals under Obama:
Admiral Charles M. Gaouette
General Carter Ham
General John Allen
General David Petraeus
General Stanley McChrystal
Gen. David McKiernan
Marine General James Cartwright
Obama’s been using the NSA to gather potential blackmail on people then using illegally gained information to force resignations, retirements and, when necessary, firings.
We already know how the IRS was ordered to create a false parallel trail of evidence to cover up how they really got their information illegally from the NSA.
So, why not?
@Scott in Oklahoma:
That puts it into its proper perspective.
No system is perfect. Nothing works as it’s supposed to 100 percent of the time. Are you going to condemn air travel because a small percentage of flights end in a crash? Forego necessary surgery, because there’s a small risk of fatal complications? Do you want to abandon a program designed to counter terrorism, out of fear that someone will inadvertently read your private e-mail?
I seem to recall people who complain about this horrible danger to their freedom and privacy jumping for joy when someone illegally hacked and made public private e-mails relating to a certain climate scientist.
You’re worried about blackmail potential? Maybe you should be more worried about somebody inside Google than somebody inside the NSA.
It’s getting harder and harder for me to be surprised by the things that are going on in the obama administration. One headline that would surprise me is, “obama not implicated in any scandal for the last 90 days.”
@Greg: NanG did a great job of explaining the problem Greg, I will add that in my law enforcement career I wrote some search warrants and participated in a few wire-tapping operations. In order to conduct those invasive operations, the paperwork and documentation was not only extensive, but had to be perfect. Yeah, perfect, like no room for “unintended invasions into someone’s 1st, 4th & 5th Amendment rights”. But the NSA is exempt from that scrutiny, even after the fact?
@Scott in Oklahoma, #9:
There’s a fundamental difference between wiretapping a criminal suspect and a largely automated data mining operation. That difference is very important.
With data mining, you have to sift the sand on the entire beach to find what needs to be given close attention. Once you think you know that, you then must go through the channels set up by Congress to legally put the specific items of interest under a microscope for inspection. If you apply privacy rules at the very first step of sifting all the sand, you’ll never find what needs close attention. Then, maybe, we could actually contemplate a spreading mushroom cloud, or a dusted cloud of anthrax spores over a stadium, or whatever.
The world is becoming increasingly dangerous, with lunatics having ever more dangerous and novel means of attack at their disposal. Somebody has got to sift through all the sand, searching for the revealing patterns that require much closer attention. Otherwise, something very bad is going to happen. It will only be a matter of time.
Turning the decision about whether we do what’s necessary or not into a topic of public debate in an effort to gain political points, or to nudge public opinion one way or the other, is totally insane. The program never should have been made public to begin with.
@Greg: not correct Greg, I fully understand “data mining”, I also know and understand how it is applied to further monitoring. As the system was originally intended, targets overseas, who had contacts in the US were “data mined”. The overseas targets were discovered and identified through intel operations, connections called “associations in fact” were developed from there and then monitored. A much narrower field, easier to monitor and easier to control access to. What we discovered this year is the NSA just takes all of the info in, then decides what to do with it. Mix in some corruption like we’ve already seen from the Obama Regime and that once narrow and now very broad field of information is being used not just for terrorist threats, but for political means as well. You seem to be okay with all of that, and your trust in the government, would you be okay with it if the government came knocking on your door over something you posted on the internet, even innocently?
@Scott in Oklahoma, #11:
There is no “Obama Regime,” there’s only an Obama Administration.
The rampant corruption you suggest isn’t there. If any evidence for that existed Darrell Issa and his politically-motivated witch hunters would be all over it, instead of attempting to create the appearance of multiple scandals by means of creative dot connection.
Nor is there even a shred of credible evidence suggesting that NSA data mining has been a means of obtaining information used for political ends by the Obama Administration.
What we do have is pretty good evidence that republicans are perfectly willing to trash a what is very likely a useful anti-terrorism surveillance program for their own political ends. The evidence consists of the simple fact that they’re actually doing it, right out in public, with cameras rolling.
Had democrats aggressively promoted the exposure of anything comparable to this during the years of the Bush Administration, the same people who are now happily watching the outing of a highly classified National Security Agency program would have been screaming “TREASON!” at the top of their lungs.
I have a zero level expectation that the government will ever come knocking on my door about something I’ve posted on the internet. They already know most of the information that I’m most concerned about keeping private. I’m fairly confident that they try to keep it that way—with the possible exception, of course, of private contractors, who apparently aren’t personally committed to following regulation to the same extent as federal employees, and who often aren’t even expected to be sworn in when they accept employment.
@Greg: Does that Kool Aid mix well with vodka or do you just drink it straight?
Maybe you should occasionally check what’s being served in the right wing pitcher. I’ve suspected for a long time now that it isn’t really tea.
Obama wants us to ”take his word for it,” that he’s reformed the NSA’s policies.
Gee, let me think about Obama’s word…..
Obama’s word to double exports by 2015 and to add 1 million manufacturing jobs by July 2016 compared with the reality:
http://michaelscomments.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/exportsrealityvsobamajun2013.gif?w=300&h=103
http://michaelscomments.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/ofa-manufacturing-jobs-aug2013.gif?w=300&h=186
Obama’s promise to add 1 million electric cars to American roads by the end of 2015:
http://michaelscomments.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/chevyvoltsalesthroughjuly2013.gif?w=300&h=180
Obama’s promise about giving him a $1trillion and he’d get unemployment down below 5%:
http://cdn.pjmedia.com/instapundit/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/obamaunemploymentfail0413.jpg
Nope.
Obama’s word is no good.
His promises of the past show he’s willing to say anything.
He cribbed a speech from Deval Patrick: ”words….just words….” he stole even that.
@Greg: Your point??
@Greg: It’s Liberty!!
@Greg: Your reasoning is to blame Bush? Fool!!
You might want to reread whatever it is that makes you think I’m “blaming Bush.”
My guess is that it was this:
Republican political ambition now poses a threat to national security. It might finally have become even more dangerous than stupidity.
@Greg:
That “useful anti-terrorism surveillance program” worked out well at Fort Hood and the Boston marathon, didn’t it?
@retire05, #20:
Neither the Boston bombing nor the Fort Hood shooting appears to have been an effort planned and executed by an extensive terrorist organization. Both appear to have been the work of individuals who planned and executed the attacks themselves.
Data mining would be more likely to uncover coordinated efforts involving complex planning and multiple individuals; larger scale events, such as 9/11.
Do republicans now imagine that no such large-scale attacks are being contemplated? That they wouldn’t involve patterns of behavior and communication that could be picked up via wide-scale data analysis? Do they have something in mind that would replace this tool?
@Greg: #12
Then, why did Brian Williams bow to leader?
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/06/03/video-did-brian-williams-bow-to-barack-obama/
Before you answer me, please imagine that someone did EXACTLY the same thing to George Bush. Would you say THAT person bowed to Bush?
@Greg: #14
I’m drinking from the FREEDOM PITCHER, which is not being refilled as often as it should be. It’s running dry.
@Nan G: #15
I can honestly say that I haven’t heard obama tell a lie for a long time. Whenever I see him come on the screen, I hit the “MUTE” button. He sounds so much better when I can’t hear him, and I haven’t heard him tell a lie since.
@Greg: #19
The NSA has stopped only one terrorist plot.
http://www.gopusa.com/news/2013/08/02/nsa-official-admits-phone-spying-stopped-only-1-plot/
@Greg, the Ft. Hood shooter communicated via email with the Al-Qaida leader for quite some time prior to his attack, somehow I guess the NSA missed him while they were monitoring everyone else. Funny, since the people in Yemen he was communicating with should have had their signals monitored…
We don’t need data mining, we do need targeted surveillance.
@Smorgasbord: Don’t watch the “news” and you won’t have to go through the trouble of hitting the ‘MUTE’ button.
with all that monstrous data, how come they cannot prevent all the crimes comited,
all the terrorism coming in this country, all the drug smuggling from MEXICO COMING
IN THIS COUNTRY, and all the voter’s corruption so to give this AMERICA THE RIGHT DESERVING LEADERSHIP.
THEY FAILED ON ALL THOSE SO FAR,
SO WHY ARE THEY TAKING SO MUCH BILLIONS TO OPERATE DIRECTLY FROM THE TAXPAYERS’S MONEY HARD EARNED,
@Scott in Oklahoma, #26:
So how would we figure out who to target for closer attention to begin with?
That’s the entire point of NSA data mining: Finding suspicious patterns that require closer attention. I don’t believe that running my e-mails through an automated sieve programmed to detect patterns suspicious of terrorist activities necessarily compromises my privacy. No human being will be looking, unless such a pattern is discovered. At that point, do you believe someone shouldn’t look closer?
Imagine you have reason to believe there’s a terrorist bomber in a football stadium, hidden somewhere in the crowd. You’ve got snipers ready to act and spotters with binoculars. Then you suddenly get orders that your spotters aren’t allowed to scan the entire crowd; they’re only allowed to look at people who are behaving in a suspicious manner…
Gee, Greg.
How many Americans have gone to study at an extremist madrassa in any Islamic country?
That might be a Red Flag.
How many Americans are emailing back and forth to terrorist hotbeds like YEMEN?
Maybe that might be a hint.
IF the NSA had been looking for people being turned into terrorists via emails in the USA instead of getting the goods on our own Admirals and Generals (should they cross Obama which it looks like several of them did) thy might have caught Nidal Hasan.
How many American people read al qaeda’s Inspire online magazine?
Go ahead, NSA, track each of them for a month or two to see it is it worth following up with more or not.
Had the NSA done that they might have caught the Boston bombers buying their pressure cookers and explosives!
The data mines are already being kept by all of the telephone companies.
The whole NSA storage is just a way to get to that data without bothering with probable cause or a court supervision.
@Greg: This could get really complicated Greg, but for your sake I’ll try to keep it simple. It starts overseas, in the areas where the enemy are. The intel people make contact with a bad guy. They compare his name to other known enemies, they pull numbers from his phone, contacts from his computer. If there are US contacts, they follow those threads, like unraveling a sock… it’s called looking for “associations in fact”, possible contacts here. Those are the people to get targeted, not my Mom or yours. I know first hand how that intel gathering works, used it professionally for years.
Suspicious patterns aren’t always suspicious, and patterns aren’t always patterns either. I know a guy who sat in federal custody for a year after having phone conversations with a “target” in a drug investigation about softball. The feds thought they were talking in code; they really were talking about softball. In the drug guy’s zeal, he really believed he was on to something, enough to ruin a mans business and family life over misinterpretation of a recorded phone conversation. The guy sat in jail because he didn’t have enough money for bail, ended up taking a deal for something he was truly innocent of because he couldn’t afford a good lawyer. I got the story from him years after the fact, did some research and verified his story. Sad bad deal.
Here’s the problem with your opinion forming process Greg, you don’t possess enough knowledge or experience about things you want to believe in, and you base your opinions on what you are fed by the media. Then you try to force feed that crap to people who know a lot more about a lot of different things than you do.
@Scott in Oklahoma, #31:
You have no clue about my background, nor about the opinions I might hold, unless they’ve been openly stated here.
Take your drug war victim, for example. I consider the DEA the single most unconstitutional, counterproductive, and corrupt government agency in existence. I would be happy to see the DEA summarily abolished first thing Monday morning, and would publicly applaud this if it were to happen. I totally detest the fact that the DEA is harassing doctors to the point that they’ve become afraid to prescribe federally controlled pain medication to people who genuinely need them. (I know and have known such people.) I totally detest the fact that the Obama administration is allowing the DEA to continue to go after state authorized medical marijuana growers in states that have wisely opted to allow medical marijuana as a result of public referendum.
With me, this bullshit is as close to a deal breaker as the Obama administration has become. The DNC could lose my vote to genuine libertarian candidates far more easily than you might suspect. All democratic politicians need to do to make that happen is to continue to behave increasingly like republicans.
By the way—and totally off topic—here’s the documentary CNN just ran on medical marijuana. Dr. Sanjay Gupta has long been an outspoken opponent of medical marijuana. He was recently challenged to look into the issue. As a result, he has totally reversed his opinion. The documentary—which I’m sure no one at the DEA is happy about—explains why.
The story of one little girl with intractable seizures makes the entire situation clear. For her, medical marijuana has been nothing less than a literally life-saving miracle. Standing between such a person and the only thing that has been proven to help them is nothing less than evil.
are they checking who is not on OBAMA’S BOOK’ ONLY,
BEFORE THE ELECTION HE HAD A BOOK MADE UP WITH A LIST OF ALL HIS SUPPORTERS
FROM ALL THE STATES, SO ARE THEY IMMUNE FROM THE INTEL SEARCH, AND THE RIS,
AND OTHER SEARCH GIMMICK,
OR INTIMIDATION CALLS FROM THE TAX AGENTS,
@Greg:
Since you support the legalization of marijuana, do you also support the legalization of ALL drugs? Cocaine, heroine, opium?
Intel agencies did indeed pick up on Hasan’s communications with al Awlaki.
First note of interest, it was an intercept picked up as part of an “unrelated investigation”. In the regular, and mandated, internal audits for oversight on intel operations, as leaked by by Snowjob to WaPo, that would likely have been classified as one of the illegal “incidents” that accidentally swoop up a US citizen in their net. In the case of Hasan, tho the communications were benign, he ended up being a terrorist. If he hadn’t, then his invasion of privacy would have been lumped in to the vast complaints about privacy violation.
As it was, the non threatening nature of the indirectly (and likely unauthorized) intercepted communications with al Awlaki, combined with the fact that he might have known al Awlaki from a commonly attended mosque, and the communications were related to a study Hasan was involved in, apparently the intel world used @Scott in Oklahoma’s observation that Suspicious patterns aren’t always suspicious, and patterns aren’t always patterns either. They were wrong, but with what they had, was it enough to continue invading the privacy of Hasan, a US citizen born in Arlington County, VA and located on US soil? Isn’t this the very thing so many are railing about? Insufficent evidence for privacy invasion?
Likewise with the Boston bombers, who were on US soil. They are not going to be the legal targets of such surveillance, without FISA orders. Nor does it appear that anyone wants them to be the targets of surveillance… except when they do.
Hindsight is always closer to 20/20.
If you want data mining of those on US soil to include red flags for everyone who visits any particular Islamic website, or includes non threating communications to “hotbeds of terror” locations, then quite a few people who visit there to read for themselves for educational or research purposes, or even have foreign cyber pen pals located in Muslim nations, are going to find themselves lumped into the same category as the Boston bombers.
Again, you either want this type of data mining which you willingly allow to private providers, and not the government… or you don’t.
Bottom line, if you want these programs to catch people like the Boston ingrates or Hasan, then data mining of those on US soil would need to have some acceptable parameters. You’d also have to agree that there can be “red flag” websites listed as those nurturing terrorists. And I don’t think any of us want to go there. Such a “list” of websites is not only going to ensnare a lot of types of people surfing the Internet for different and innocent reasons, but starts a really ugly precedent. It’s never one website or a few emails. It’s a pattern and the nature of the detailed communication.
As far as the leaked internal audit, which is apparently periodical oversight mandated by law, a few things stand out to me.
1: That the majority of “incidents” were non intentional and careless human error. (why don’t I find that surprising?)
2: there still appears to be a lack of communication between agencies etal… like the delay in “detasking” (removing a target’s surveillance after they are found to be an American, or located inside of the US). Or retaining some files longer than the allowed five year period by technical personnel to maintain the documentation of provider feed data.
3: that they are constantly working to improve parameters of the data mining, as well as putting in initiatives to lower the amount of “incidents” that may occur in the process of data mining.
4: that no individual ended up being unfairly prosecuted, imprisoned etal by these errors. They caught the incidents, noted them in the audit – plus potential ways to cure the problem – and moved on.
I don’t know how many queries there were in that same audit time period, but it would be interesting to know in order to compare the incident violations… of which the vast majority did not appear to be deliberate… to actual non violation operations. I mean, are we talking about a drop in the bucket or a huge quantity of all surveillance? How does this compare?
Is there room for improvement? Sure. But it doesn’t appear to matter because with most Americans, intel communities are damned if they do data mining and, following some incident by those they are clearly not granted authority to monitor (i.e. website habits, phone calls and emails of American citizens or those within the US), they are just as damned if they don’t.
@retire05, #35:
Sorry, I’m not going there. I have a position on marijuana based on all the facts that I know about that particular substance. Each different substance presents an entirely different set of issues, so it makes no sense at all to lump them all together.
The degree of control that’s justifiable depends upon the degree of risk a substance presents. The risks related to marijuana are demonstrably far less than the risks related to tobacco or alcohol, which are both readily available through legal channels. Keeping marijuana illegal does far more social damage than making it legal. It also prevents those who could greatly benefit from it in connection with medical problems from having it. (To the great benefit of the pharmaceutical industry, which recognizes a serious threat to their profits when they see one. Cannabis is a bit too useful and too effective for their liking. They certainly wouldn’t want a lot of human suffering to be relieved using an inexpensive, non-patented, readily available herb.)
Crystal methamphetamine is undeniably a personally and socially destructive substance that has a drastically different risk profile. Legitimate medical uses are virtually nonexistent. It should be treated accordingly. If the DEA needs a serious threat to keep it occupied, there’s always that one.
Half a century of slumber and a preponderance of apathy prevailed as all government agencies bloated beyond recognition, including the FBI, the CIA, and the NSA, and operated beyond the authority of Congress.
Suddenly a couple of surprises, apparently — a) Senior Government bureaucrats abusing their power and the force of their private armies of employees for political purposes, and b) the illegal intrusion of privacy. Now we care. Almost – the President, disseminating wisdom on a late-night comedy show, appeases the masses and lies. Nothing to worry about – no one cares about what you’re really doing. The government will not abuse your rights and will only listen-in if there’s something suspicious, and will have obtained legal authority before doing so.
So now we are debating how much intrusion is satisfactory. How much infringement of privacy is OK. Neither this President, nor many in Congress care what the great we wishes. They will decide what we need.
Providing out-of-control government bureaucracies and politicians any beachhead into infringement of privacy is too much.
It looks as if pretense of future “mistakes” such as accidental invasion of privacy through data mining will be permanent fixtures hanging over us and enlightening our way along the road to safety.
@Greg: Gee Greg, we actually agree on something. If you had read my entire story about my friend who got caught up, including the last three words, you might have guessed I don’t like the DEA either; and I come from a long law enforcement career. And I don’t have a dog in the marijuana hunt, I am allergic to it anyway.
@Greg:
And what is your level of expertise based on? A degree in chemistry? Perhaps pharmaceuticals? Or just simple personal use?
You want to legalize pot? Go ahead. But when you do, it should also be part of the process that if you smoke pot, no one is going to be responsible for you. If your idea of a great day is sitting around stoned watching re-runs of Fast Times at Ridgemont High, no food stamps, no free medical treatment, no housing, nada.
People who smoke what is well known as a “gate-way” drug, should not be eligible for any social welfare, I don’t care how many kids they have. And I fully support those who are receiving social welfare having to prove they are not users of any chemical substance, including alcohol and cigarettes. If they can afford to indulge, they certainly don’t need taxpayer assistance for that.
MataHarley
am I right to think YOU MEANT IT, BY MENTIONING OF the research project HASSAN WAS WORKING ON the PTSD SOLDIERS,and instead of helping them he was messing up their confuse minds,which
WAS HIS INDOCTRINATION ON THE SICK SOLDIERS WHICH WAS A CRIME BY ITSELF AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN DEALT WITH A GREAT SUSPICION AND HAVE HIM ARRESTED,
TO MY MIND IT WAS AN ACT OF WAR AGAINST AMERICA TARGETING THE SOLDIER WITH PTSD,
AND THAT SOLDIER CAME HERE AT FA TO EXPOSE HIM,
AND IF THE COMMANDER WOULD HAVE ARRESTED HIM , HE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THERE TO KILL AND WOUNDED SO MANY MILITARY LATER,
THIS WAS A GROSS FAILURE FROM THE LEADERSHIP AT THE HOSPITAL ALSO IF THEY DID NOT EXPOSED HIM AT THAT TIME,
WAS THAT TAKEN SO LIGHTLY TO HEAR THAT HE HASSAN WAS TEACHING THE KORAN TO AMERICANS COMING BACK FROM THE WAR-ZONE?
TO MY MIND IT’S INCREDIBLE,
BYE
@retire05, #40:
For someone who generally distrusts the federal government as a source of reliable information, you certainly seem to have swallowed their disinformation package concerning “the demon weed” hook, line, and sinker.
Here’s the DEA’s official information page about medical marijuana. It’s nothing but lies.
This is total bullshit and the DEA knows it, unless they’re not only evil, but also appallingly stupid. Blatant, baldfaced lies, right there in black and white, for any intelligent, informed citizen to see. This has got to be one of the most egregious examples of the U.S. government deliberately lying, to the detriment of the best interest of the American public, that anyone could imagine.
They would knowinglydeny the little girl in the CNN video the only known medication that works, and has literally saved her life, to prop up their damn agency budget. If there’s a hell, there’s got to be a special place in it for people who would do that.
@ilovebeeswarzone, no clue what you are talking about. I have no knowledge of Nidal Hisan’s research project at Walter Reed, nor whether it was nefarious in nature. I only copy/pasted from the article as to the reasons that the intel agencies did not extend surveillance on a US citizen, located on US soil, based on what they saw in the communications content. Anything else about that research project in a conflation in your mind, and not based on any information I have seen in the press.
And BTW, the last I looked in America, one could “teach” the Koran with as much freedom as one could “teach” the Bible. Wouldn’t want it any other way. We do still enjoy religious freedom here… to some degree, at least.
While I understand the concept in theory, the fact is the nation’s intel world has been clad in the shadows for quite some time… long before this current administration. And I don’t disagree that all prevention of attacks and war must include collection of intel.
So the argument, over these decades – nay, centuries – of our nation’s existence has always been about degrees of intrusion, and what intrusions result in negative, unConstitutional effects on any particular individual that was the subject of these degrees of intrusion. Fact is for the amount of data and information swooped up by our intelligence agencies over all this time, the resulting negative effects on innocents caught in the net is still small by comparison. I can’t imagine that for the illusion of “privacy”… which no one has because if government isn’t collecting it, private companies are… you would want to suggest that no intel collection can be done whatsoever.
What has brought most of this to light is the Info Age and technological advances. First, we know so much, and instantly… and oft time inaccurately… because of the speed of news travel via the Internet. That same technology has made it far more complex for intel agencies to function under our law and Constitution that protect our privacy.
I don’t think the voting constituency possesses the privy to classified knowledge about threats to be the deciding factor of limitations. I very much respect the “need to know” aspect of intelligence. On the flip side, there are instances that have occurred in our history that needed far more oversight than our Congress has provided. It is a fine line to walk, and even more in this advanced tech age. It’s foolhardy to swing to hard in either direction.
As you can already see, people complain if we don’t seek or act on even sketchy intel that can stop another Sept 11th, Ft. Hood or Boston Marathon bombing. But they are just as quick to complain if they do. For in order to have stopped Hasan, they would have to violate laws to continue their surveillance since what they had was zip for a threat. To stop the Boston bombers, they would have to had thrown all the rules out the window and snoop on their Internet surfing habits and base a decision on that. Oddly enough, all the fears people have about the surveillance that can sweep Americans, or those on our soil, into the nets are exactly the same that would have worked had the intel agencies disregarded our privacy laws.
Make no mistake… I am *not* advocating that they should have thrown out the rules for Hasan and the Boston Bombers. I am merely pointing out that you need to cut the intel agencies slack if they follow the rules, and thereby miss some of the threats because they do. We either protect citizens and those on our soil with these laws, or we don’t. And mistakes will also happen, which is why we have legal recourse in our courts.
As far as your statement, “How much infringement of privacy is OK. Neither this President, nor many in Congress care what the great we wishes. They will decide what we need.” This admin will be gone as of Jan 2017, despite what the conspirators bandy about. This nation has survived all kinds of administrations – none of which have been perfect. It will survive Obama’s.
What it may never survive is Congress.
@Greg:
Do you just sit around making up things people say in your head? Where did I say that I used the federal government as a source of reliable information?
Boy, you progressives have the “It’s for the children” mantra down pat, don’t you? What about all the other “little” girls that will wind up hooked on other drugs because pot is a gate-way drug? What about their parents that watch as their “little” girls get hooked on first, pot, and then go on to cocaine, or worse?
Children, for you on the left, are only a tool to be used to advance what ever agenda you are pushing now.
And remember, that DEA that you so virulently denounce, works for the guy you helped put into office.
You said:
So again, I ask: what is your level of expertise based on? A degree in chemistry? Perhaps pharmaceuticals? Or just simple personal use?
Or can we accept that you are not going to answer those questions and are just another pot head trying to justify your use of an illegal drug, therefore making you a criminal?
I’m sorry. I guess I’m missing your insurmountable and unquestionable “levels of expertise” here. Do they exist with the same level of education of one that thinks a “tom” is a drum? LOL That same limited low info voter would also assume that all MJ users are “criminals” via state laws. Apparently not.
There is a specific case of an epileptic girl on the CNN video by Gupta, called “Weed”, that I watched. Apparently you didn’t. Hazards of selective news and information gathering, I guess.
This isn’t a “for the children” argument. It is a documented medical case in Colorado of one particular little girl. And she is not the only one to benefit from the medicinal properties of inexpensive herbs. Nor is it limited to epilepsy type symptoms.
What marijuana comes down to is big Pharma bucking inexpensive potential solutions via a plant anyone can grow, and lost profits. They’d rather prescribe expensive and addictive drugs. Ritalin and Adderall would be two major examples of those, and American’s are being dosed with those daily – state and federal sanctioned – from childhood. They, and their side effects, are far more dangerous.
@MataHarley: #43,
That this Admin is leaving is not in question, however, during this Admin’s tenure we have been provided insight into what is possible when any Admin uses the power of the pulpit to sway the massively powerful ‘liberal’ bureaucracy of government, as Obama has been led to do.
Congress has been impotent, but just as distressing are the intrusions, and abuses which have been coming from insane bureaucrats who don’t seem to grasp the violations they have committed.
Been that way since the beginning of our nation’s time, James. That’s why there were term limits built in. Unfortunately, Congress.. which has no Constitutional term limits, and creates the laws that give these agencies power… can do far more damage than any single POTUS.
@retire05, #44:
Watch the video, and then tell me that the child is irrelevant to the issue. She’s not the only one with her form of intractable seizures who has been prescribed medical marijuana. There are 40 known cases. Every one of them has improved, and some, like her, have improved so dramatically that it almost seems miraculous. Her problem is only one of a long list of medical conditions where medical marijuana has been established to be very useful, and one of the least common. One of the most common problems that marijuana has been proven extremely helpful with is the nausea and weight loss that frequently accompany chemotherapy. It’s unbelievable that cancer patients are still being deprived of this inexpensive and highly effective remedy.
Your problem on this one is that anyone who knows the facts will immediately realize that you obviously don’t. One need not be a chemist or an expert in medications—only a reasonably intelligent person who has taken the time and trouble to gather information from unbiased sources. The DEA information is so far from the truth it would be laughable, if it weren’t causing so much unnecessary suffering and harm. The people responsible for it should be forced out of public service.
MataHarley
yes teach his religion to sick and confuse soldiers with ptsd,
who are back from the war, this from their appointed psychiatrist ,
you have to admit is not a normal thing to be done in a hospital this on CHRISTIAN MILITARY,
AND IT’S AS WEIRD AS IT CAN BE, IT’S MORE THAN THAT, FROM A PSYCHIATRIST IT’S UNACCEPTABLE AND BRUTAL ON THE PATIENT, WHO FOUND THAT CONFUSING EVEN SAYING HE WAS SICK WITH PTSD TO TRY TO JUSTIFY HIS CONFUSION HE COULD NOT UNDERSTAND, THAT’S WHY HE COMMENT HERE AT FA TO GET SOME CLUE,
YOU DON’T SEEM TO FIND IT ALARMING FROM WHAT I READ,
AND ALL CAME TO SHOW HE WAS A TERRORIST KILLER OF MULTIPLE SOLDIERS HE WAS RAISE WITH AS A BROTHER, AFTERWARD, AND HE WAS
ALWAYS A TERRORIST AFFILIATED TO HIS TERRORIST FOREIGNERS,
AS WE NOW KNOW,
IT EXPLAINED HIS CONDUCT WITH HIS SO CALLED PATIENTS TO BE
PUTTING THEM IN DANGER,
WE DON’T KNOW WHAT KIND OF PILLS HE DID USE HIS RANK TO HAVE THEM TAKEN EITHER,
I DON’T FIND ANY OF IT NORMAL BUT HORRIBLE,
I’m sorry I ask, I THOUGHT YOU WHERE REFERRING TO THIS ACTIONS ON INDOCTRINATION ON YOUR FIRST COMMENT,
Bees, the day anyone is *not* allowed to teach religion in America – even those to which I do not ascribe – is the day America officially dies. Maybe you have something different in Canada. But then, I have no desires to move to your country.
@Greg:
You only seem to know the “facts” that support one side of the debate.
So, your opinion is not based on education such as a degree in chemistry or pharmaceuticals, but on personal use, right? And you most certainly could never be considered a reasonably intelligent person who has taken the time and trouble to gather information from unbiased sources, since the only source you have referred to is CNN.
And while we are at that task, we can also force their boss out of public service since The Won has done nothing but make a total mess of everything he touches. I’m sure, though, you relate to him as a fellow stoner.
And you have cleared up one thing, Greggie; you’re adamant defense of pot explains a lot about how you view issues.
James Raider,
some of his followers in CONGRESS are lunatic as much,
they don’t seem to know even why they are there,
bye
@MataHarley: #45,
Off the post topic, but you can add to “big Pharma,” endless other industries. The plant can provide an abundance of needed products such as, oil; weaved materials for clothes or paper; finishing products such as varnish; structural materials replacing lumber and any other cellulose need; and, it can grow anywhere, is hardy, and requires very little maintenance. Marijuana and hemp should be replacing every corn field in North America used to feed the ethanol absurdity.
There was a day when hemp was a big market in the US, James. But it seems any association with the “evil weed” in construct puts it off limits with “conservatives”. It’s an amazing “weed” with tons of uses. All of which are being quashed by both big government and their “social conservative” supporters. That’s too bad.